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Chad Allen: Secrets to Building Your Author Platform · The Daily Writer

• 0:13
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to the weekend edition of the Daily Rider.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_00: Each weekday we bring you a short lesson that helps you live out the four practices of a great writer creativity, consistency, courage, and connection.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_00: Here on the weekend edition, we take a deeper dive into those topics through conversations with writers and teaching that helps us apply what we're learning.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_00: For more, you can visit us at dailyriderlife.com.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_00: Platform.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_00: It's one of those words that feels a little bit mysterious, intimidating, and maybe even confusing to many authors.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_00: You've heard that you need a platform and you're willing to do the work, but why do you need one and how in the world do you go about building it?
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_00: Well, my friend Chad Allen is here on this episode to join me for a conversation about these questions and much more.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_00: Chad is a writer, speaker, editor, and writing coach.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_00: As a 20-year publishing professional, he served in acquisitions and directorial roles for Baker Books, a division of Baker Publishing Group, before going full-time with his own business.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_00: Chad has collaborated with numerous best-selling authors, including Michael Hyatt, Jeff Goines, Mark Batterson, Phyllis Tickle, and many others.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_00: Chad is also the creator of Book Proposal Academy, an online course, and BookCamp, a mentoring and community hub for writers.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_00: And Chad's passion is helping writers get their books into the world.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_00: And he also blogs at ChadRAllen.com.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_00: And there will be a link to that, of course, in the show notes.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_00: Chad holds a BA in English from the University of Nebraska, Lincoln, and an MA in theology from the University of Notre Dame.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_00: He and his wife, Alissa, live with their two children in Grand Rapids, Michigan.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_00: So in this conversation, which by the way was an absolute blast, you will learn all about your author platform, including the number one reason publishers turn books down, the best ways to grow your platform, the role of blogging and social media, how to change your mindset about growing your platform, and much more.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_00: I had the privilege of meeting Chad a couple of years ago at Jeff Coyne's Tribe Conference.
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_00: And I can tell you that Chad is absolutely the real deal.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_00: He's an excellent book coach, and he knows more than just about anybody on the planet about what it takes to put together an excellent book.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_00: And over the years, I have read and used dozens of books published by Baker where Chad had a hand in their success.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_00: I just didn't know it at the time.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_00: And then once I found out that Chad was involved in Baker books, this has been a number of years ago, I started like going through my books published by Baker.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_00: And oh, Chad's mentioned there, he's mentioned there, he's mentioned there.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_00: So he has had his hand in lots and lots of really fantastic books, and he truly knows his stuff when it comes to writing, publishing, and building an author platform.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_00: Now, in addition to all the amazing insights that Chad shares in our conversation, he also mentions toward the end a special offer for daily writer listeners, which is a free 30-day trial offer of Bookcamp, which again is his community that will help you grow your platform.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_00: So he'll give you some details about that in the conversation, but I'll also include a link to that in the show notes.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_00: So make sure and check that out.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_00: That's a really cool deal.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_00: All right.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_00: Without further ado, here's my conversation with Chad Allen.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_00: Chad, welcome to the Daily Rider Podcast.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_00: I've been looking forward to this and I appreciate you taking time out to join us.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_00: What a joy.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks for having me, Kent.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_00: I'm excited.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_00: So I have been following your stuff for many years, actually.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm you probably get this a lot where people have been kind of lurking in the shadows as to the stuff that you're doing because you've been involved in the book world for a long time.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_00: So it's a huge honor to have you on the show.
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm excited about our conversation about platform building.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_00: So you are you are the guy for this topic.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_00: So uh again, I appreciate it.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, well, you know, it started for me, it started with Michael Hyatt's Platform University, uh, which is still going on, although I think it's under different leadership.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_01: And uh that that really set me off on a journey of starting a blog and and uh oh yeah, yeah, eventually serving writers the way I do now.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, it's been great.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_00: Do you remember when his book Platform came out back in 2012?
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_00: That was like a revolutionary, big, huge, massive deal.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_00: And uh this sounds stupid.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_00: I remember getting that in the mail and it's like, oh my gosh, it's like the handbook for all this stuff.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_00: And it's amazing to think it's been nine years and so many of us are are still trying to put those things into practice.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it feels like the 10-year anniversary there ought to be an event or something.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_01: There should be that book was seminal.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um, it was.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I I had been thinking about starting a blog.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't think, I mean, I you know, I knew that I knew that digital media was sort of revolutionary, and I knew that I wanted to be involved somehow.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_01: And that book was just like the permission slip, you know, like Michael Hyatt's telling all of us, go.
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_01: And I started and uh look where we are now, man.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_00: I know.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_00: Wow.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_00: So let's dive in here.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_00: We've got a lot of stuff to talk about.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_00: One of the main questions that I want to ask is this idea of why do publishers turn books down?
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_00: And I know you've got an answer that's related to our topic of platform, but this is something that a lot of writers and authors really struggle over.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_00: And they wonder why didn't my proposal or my book idea get accepted?
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_00: And I know it a lot of it has to do with platform.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_00: So can you expand on that?
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, yes.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_01: So publishers have uh, I mean, a lot of writers may not realize that publishing is a very capital-intensive business.
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_01: You have to have a lot of capital up front uh if you're going to be a book publisher.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_01: So they have a huge amount of overhead that they have to cover to be able to make a profit.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_01: What that means is ultimately they have to sell books.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_01: And of course, the quality of the writing is really important to a book's success.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_01: But maybe even more important is the ability of the author to help them promote.
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_01: And that's called a platform.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, Hyatt uh defines platform as any means of exposure, any means of of getting exposure that you have.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_01: So can you help?
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_01: And the ultimate litmus, the ultimate litmus test is if a publisher sends you a thousand copies of your book, could you move them?
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_01: Could you sell them yourself?
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_01: Wow, good question.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_01: Um and a thousand is just a number.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_01: It could be five, it could be ten thousand.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_01: Um so uh the number one reason publishers turn books down is because your platform is too small.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_01: Um, that's the reality.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_01: So they're looking to work with great writers, but they're looking to work with writers who can help them promote.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_01: That is the reality of the traditional publishing space right now.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_01: And I should hasten to add, it's important if you're self-publishing too, because it's it's one thing to write a book and two of your friends read it.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_01: It's another thing to write a book that sells a significant number of copies.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_01: The the ingredient you need there is a platform.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_00: Now, let me ask kind of an inverse question, sort of.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_00: And here we're we're talking about traditional publishing, but pretty much everything we talk about with traditional publishing are principles that people should follow when self-publishing too, because ultimately it's getting books into the hands of readers.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_00: As someone who is a veteran of the publishing industry, are there times when a publisher will accept a book idea or proposal that is maybe like B level and is not A level, but they have a large platform because they can move books, even though maybe editors or others don't necessarily feel like this is the strongest thing in the world.
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_00: Does that ever actually happen?
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, especially if the publisher has a vision for taking it from B to A.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you have to realize publishers um have been doing this work a long time.
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_01: They they are in the book improvement business.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_01: That's part of that's part of why I think traditional publishers haven't gone the way of so many music studios, um, because publishers still add value to the process.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_01: They still have a lot uh that they give to the process.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_01: So so yes, you can self-publish.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_01: I'm a big fan of both self-publishing and traditional publishing, but I think one of the reasons traditional publishers are still in business is because they can add value to the process.
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_01: So, yes, if they get a proposal from an author and they see, wow, this person has an engine that they can use to promote it, the book has a little ways to go, but we can get there together and we have a vision for how to get there.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_01: And this author seems willing to collaborate.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_01: Let's go for it.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, I mean, that's I mean, that is probably that probably summarizes, you know, fully 70% of book.
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so if not more.
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, that happens all the time.
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_00: And sometimes I know that's that's the time when they will bring in a ghostwriter or a or a co-author or you know, an editor.
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_00: Obviously, editors, there are very few forms of magic in the world today, but I think editors are one of those magic things because a good editor just makes such a massive difference.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I I work with uh a handful of one-on-one clients, and uh and they'll send me like a blog post or something and I'll work through it and and then I'll say, now, you know, if this isn't your voice, if you know, feel free to change it, like it's your name on this, not mine.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_01: They're like, Yeah, but uh if I like what you've done, I can just do it.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, sure, of course.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_00: So so yes, editors are worth their weight in gold for sure.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_00: I do have that problem with ghostwriting clients sometimes where I'm like, hey, this is a draft.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, I want to put it in your voice.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I'm not emotionally attached to this.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_00: You can rip it apart.
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_00: We're here to make this thing as good as it can be in your voice.
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_00: And they're like, no, but I like what you've done.
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, no, I want you to criticize it.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's just it's an interesting dynamic.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_00: So, what are some of the best ways to grow a platform?
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I know there are people who are listening right now who are overwhelmed at the mere idea of building an author platform.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_00: So, what are some simple, practical, really effective ways that they can go about doing that?
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_01: So, I think the number one metric for a platform is your email list.
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of people will talk about social media, but we know from research that the engagement, the open rates, the click-through rates are much stronger for email than they are for social media.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not saying disregard social media.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, social media is important, email is more important.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_01: So, uh, and so the first question is okay, I don't have an email list or I have a very small email list.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_01: How do I get started?
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_01: So the very first thing to do, I think, is to go after the folks who know you and like you just because they're your friends, your coworkers, your family members.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_01: And what you do is um you email them, you text them, you use Facebook Messenger, whatever it is, and you just say, Hey, I'm starting a group of people to keep them updated about a book that I'm working on.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_01: It seemed like something you might be interested in.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_01: Do you want in?
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_01: And when they say yes, you add their email address to your email service provider, whether that's MailChimp or Convert Kit or whatever.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so those are what we call the eager sneezers.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_01: Eager sneezers, they they um they're eager to share your content just because they know you and like you.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_01: So even if they're not in your target market, because this is the thing that holds writers up.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, I don't want to tell this friend about it because he's not interested in self-help books.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_01: Well, he's connected to people who are.
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_01: So if he'll if you can, if you can sort of capitalize on the on the relational capital that you have with that person, do it, get them on board, and they're gonna help you reach your target readers.
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_01: So that would be so take, I mean, a lot of writers I work with take 15, 20 minutes in the morning, um, and they'll just send as many of those messages, those direct messages to their friends as they can in that period of time.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_01: And then, and 90, I can tell you, if you do this, and I want to encourage people to take action, you know, 90% or more of the time, what you're gonna hear back from that person is, yeah, why didn't you tell me about this sooner?
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_01: You know, of course I want in.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_01: Of course I want to be on.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_01: I want to be in your group.
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so and sometimes you won't hear anything.
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_01: You may want to follow up with those folks.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_01: Very seldom will somebody come back and say, Well, what do you mean?
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_01: What does it mean to be in this group?
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_01: And you just say, Well, I'm starting an email list to keep people notified.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_01: I'd like to add you to it.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_01: Would that be okay?
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_01: And again, nine times out of 10, they're gonna say yeah.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_01: So I think that's a great way to get started.
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_00: What about writers who think of themselves as creatives, as artists, as writers?
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_00: They really feel comfortable in that realm.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_00: And whenever they think about things like marketing or asking people to do something or inviting people to join an email list, they think of that as something that is emotionally beyond where they are now.
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_00: What would you say to writers who who find this concept of marketing and putting themselves out there difficult?
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_00: How how can they change their mindset to to really value this element of marketing and building a platform as equally as the value of writing good content?
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, such a great question.
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_01: I think what writers often the way they think about all this is they think of marketing as way over here, you know, right, and writing as way over there.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_01: Like they're a hundred miles apart.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_01: But the reality is, I mean, if if when you think about it, like the goal isn't that someone would keep their nose in our book 24-7 forever, right?
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_01: No, what you want is the book to have its effect on a reader and that it would stay with them for a while, maybe whether that's fiction or nonfiction.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_01: You can begin the process of having that effect happen before your book is even out there and afterwards by nurturing a relationship with your readers.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_01: What we're talking about is marketing, writing, publishing, it's all part of one motion to serve readers.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_01: And so you can begin that serving process in your marketing.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, um, one of my one of my favorite bloggers is Seth Godin.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_01: He publishes a blog post every day, and I buy his books.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_01: And it's all, I mean, the voice you hear in the books is the same.
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_01: You voice you hear in the blog post.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_01: It's just a different and helpful medium in book form.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_01: And so he is, he's always serving his readers, and people support his books because of that.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_01: They they want to read the next book that comes out.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um, Stephen King, if to use it to use a fiction example, I love following Stephen King's tweets.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_01: He does an email as far as he's got a great Twitter feed.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, he's great.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_01: So again, he's serving, he's cultivating a relationship with his readers, uh, at least via Twitter, if not in other ways.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_01: And so when his book comes out, people are ready, you know, to buy that next book.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_01: So I want to include both fiction and nonfiction because oftentimes novelists think, oh, well, that applies to nonfiction.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't apply to fiction, but it's true for all writers.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_00: So when is the this is the question everybody probably asks.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_00: I'm sure you've had this question million times.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_00: Is there a magic number that publishers consider kind of the entry level for okay, we'll give this this man or woman a shot at their book?
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_00: And anything below a social media following email list number, we they don't really consider that.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_00: What is kind of the magic number there?
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I'll give you a number because I do get asked this a lot.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_01: And so I've thought about it, and I have a number, but I have all kinds of caveats that I have to have, which which of course, yeah.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_01: And and even before I give the number, I'm gonna start with a caveat, which is to say there isn't um, there isn't a number where if you hit it, you're guaranteed to get a book deal.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_01: That just doesn't exist.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_01: That's not how publishers make decisions.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_01: Um, it's it's it's one part of a larger package.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_01: So that's maybe the first thing to say.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_01: But the number I give writers is shoot for a thousand email subscribers before you start pitching to agents and publishers.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, can you get a book deal?
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_01: Do authors get book deals all the time with an email list that's less than that?
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, they do, because like I said, it's part of a bigger package.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um, sometimes the concept is so compelling.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes I mean, I I place a big emphasis on an email list, but publishers don't always think that way.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_01: They look at they look at uh social media stats.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_01: So that can be part of it.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_01: Uh sometimes the writing is just so good that we have to publish this, you know.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and if you have an email list of 10,000, are you guaranteed a book deal?
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_01: No, because again, it's part of a larger package.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_01: But if you can get to a thousand email subscribers, you're showing agents and publishers that you can reach beyond just your friends, family, acquaintances, and co-workers.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_01: You have somehow figured out how to reach a larger audience.
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_01: And so that's what you can show with a thousand email subscribers.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_00: So we've got so we've got email, and thank you, by the way.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_00: That's I thought you were gonna say 10,000 off the bat.
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_00: So a thousand is way more doable for most people, and it's not really that hard to get if you if you work at it.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_00: Just about anybody can do that, yeah.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly, exactly.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so we have email lists.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, that's obviously a critical part of this, but there are also some other things like social media, blog posts, etc.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_00: What role, because we're talking to writers here on the show, what role does blogging play in this idea of growing your platform?
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_00: Should we still be blogging?
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_00: Is blogging dead?
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_00: It's widely been reported that blogging is dead.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_00: You know, there's been posts about that.
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_00: Ironically, there are blog posts that talk about blogging being dead, which I don't understand.
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_00: Right, right.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but what role does blogging play in this?
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's a kind of like asking, is TV dead?
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_01: You know, um it's right.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_01: Well, no, is music dead?
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_01: No, uh, like like these forms change.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_01: We listen to music differently uh than we used to.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um, TV has definitely changed.
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you know, now it's like which which premium service am I gonna buy?
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_01: You know, exactly.
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_01: Is it Netflix?
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_01: Is it Apple?
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_01: Is it Prime?
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_01: Like, what is it?
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_01: Uh we didn't ask those questions 10 years ago.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, so is blogging dead?
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_01: No, blogging has changed, the platforms change, the look changes, the way you get readers changed has changed a little bit, but blogging itself content, really good content that people can read and get value out of.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_01: No, that's not going out of style anytime soon.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so um, and yeah, I think you know, when it comes to building an audience, blogging is a durable medium.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_01: Can you do it in other ways?
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, we're doing it right now for your audience, right?
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, podcasting is a great method, so is YouTube channels.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_01: Um, speaking is a great way to build an audience.
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm not I'm not channel specific.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_01: I think blogging is a great way to go for writers because it's it's a related medium to books.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but uh I'm not I'm not really gonna you know advocate for one channel or the other.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_01: What matters is are you serving your audience?
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_00: And the cool thing is that you can you can take blog posts and turn those into podcasts.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_00: So this episode will also become a blog post in the form of show notes and and you know, social media posts and all that.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_00: So now speaking of social media, what role does social media play in growing a writing platform?
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I think you know, as you're growing your email list, it's really important to not forget about well, even when you have an email list, it's really important uh to not forget about social media.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_01: Uh it's a way to for people to discover you.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_01: It's also Tim Grawl, author of Your First 1000 Copies, which is one of my favorite books on Google.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_00: Great book.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_00: Fantastic.
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_01: He talks about social media as a way to reach uh other influencers.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_01: So it's a lot, if you can um, if you can be on the podcast of somebody who has, let's say, a thousand people who listen to that podcast episode, um, it's a lot easier to reach those 1,000 people that way than it is to go out and reach all 1,000 of them individually.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_01: So what Tim Groll talks about is using social media to connect with other influencers so that you can begin, you know, pitching a win-win situation where, you know, Chad comes on Kent's podcast, Kent gets some great content for his listeners, Chad gets a little exposure for what he's doing, and it's a win-win, right?
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_01: So you can start making those kinds of connections over social media.
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_01: So I I would say those two things are really important when it comes to social media.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, that totally makes sense.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_00: It makes a lot of sense.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_00: Now, when we have those social media followers, what are the best ways to turn those followers into email subscribers?
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's great.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_01: So uh let's take Facebook, for example.
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_01: Um, one thing to one thing to try is writing a great blog post that includes some sort of lead magnet.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe sometimes these get called content upgrades.
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_01: So you're gonna maybe you already have a really popular blog post.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_01: Um, the one that on my blog that seems to get a lot of attention is how to write a chapter by chapter synopsis, right?
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_01: So I just have a lot, for whatever reason, I have a lot of organic traffic that comes to that blog post.
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_01: So what I did is I created an upgrade on on how, you know, like chapter people want to know about a chapter by chapter synopsis because they want to know how to write a book proposal.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_01: So in that blog post, I directly Direct people to my book proposal template.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_01: So what I do is I share the blog post on Facebook.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_01: So it's a free blog post.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_01: There's no opt-in required.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_01: You need you can just click it and go to the blog post.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_01: But as they read the blog post, they're going to be invited to grab this piece of content, this content upgrade, this lead magnet, whatever you want to call it.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_01: And then if you want, you can play Facebook's game a little bit and you can pay five bucks to boost it, you know, um to get more more followers and hopefully more email subscribers.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_01: So that's one tactic, sharing something free on a social media channel that once they get into it, the readers will have the option of taking your your extra piece of content for which they'll provide their email address.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_00: So do you have more than one lead magnet on your site, or do you just have one people go to that one and then that funnels them into your main email list?
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_00: I have a lot of different, I probably have 20 different lead magnets.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_01: Wow, really?
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_01: Oh yeah.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_01: I mean it's it's been over the course of, I mean, I started blogging back in 2012.
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_01: So it's been almost 10 years.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um, yeah.
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_01: So and I've just kind of created different things along the way.
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_01: And you get to where uh and here's the thing, people think that lead magnets um take a lot of work.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_01: Like I need to spend five weeks on this and da-da-da.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_01: No, you and I could create a lead magnet, you know, by the time we're done with this podcast episode.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, what I encourage you to do as a as a writer is think about um, maybe, maybe a great tactic is first of all, look at your most popular blog posts, take the top three, and think about how could I how could I take readers one little step further with this content?
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe it's uh maybe it's five questions on a Microsoft Word document where I'm gonna read your blog post and then you're gonna offer me a five-step action guide so that I can take what I've read and put it into action.
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_01: And I just create a work Microsoft Word document, and that's my lead magnet.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_01: It's very simple, right?
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_01: So people, I mean, and my first lead magnet, I I it was an it's an e-book called Do Your Art.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_01: And I did, I spent months and months on it.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_01: It's great.
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_01: I'm really proud of it.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_01: But if I had to give advice to my younger self, I'd say, you know what, your first lead magnet doesn't need to be that.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you can do something relatively quick.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_01: People are grateful for any little tool that can help them make progress.
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_00: So hopefully that's helpful.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_00: So then here I'm getting a little uh into the weeds with details, but this is this is the kind of stuff where people get hung up oftentimes with these kind of things.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, what do you use for your email um email marketing service?
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_00: Is it convert kit?
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_01: It is.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_01: I I was on MailChimp uh initially, um, but I switched to convert kit, which is a tag-based rather than a list-based system.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that system is just a lot more efficient.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, so uh I I have a lot of respect for MailChimp.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, I know their story and the the entrepreneurism that went into that product, but I've got a I'm a convert kit convert kit.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_01: I am too.
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_01: I really enjoy convert kit.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_00: So when you have those lead magnets uh on your site, do those all take people to the same email list?
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_00: Like, hey, you're gonna download this lead magnet, and then you're also gonna be put on my email list, which I'm I'm on your list and you send out phenomenal stuff.
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm wondering, do those all get funneled to the exact same list?
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_00: Uh yes.
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I tend to have two, I think in terms of two different lists, although as we as we mentioned, it's all about tags, not not lists.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_01: There are people who are true, true.
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_01: Very yeah, there are people who I'm serving inside a paid community called Bootcamp, which we're gonna talk about here in a bit.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then there are people who are not currently in Bootcamp.
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_01: So my book camp members are getting my very best content.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_01: Um, my my my non-paid folks are getting great content, but there's gonna be some marketing in there too, because I'm trying to I'm trying to convince them, hey, you should be in boot camp.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, exactly.
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_01: So um, so that's how I tend to think about it.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_01: Those are the my my two big segments.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_00: And my main, I and I guess that was the my main question, which you which you answered was you can have multiple lead magnets, but they can all I mean you can funnel those to different lists, or you can tag them separately depending on which email provider you're using.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_00: Um, or you can just have one main list and those lead magnets, depending on where those are being marketed to and where what blog posts are connected with, those can all funnel to the same exact list.
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_01: And and especially when you're getting started.
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_01: Here's the thing like we we sabotage ourselves with all these all these technical questions.
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, it is so an email list, just have one email list and serve those people.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_01: Don't worry about people.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_01: If people don't want on it, they'll unsubscribe, you know, and that's okay.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_01: It just means your list just got stronger, you know.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so yeah, I would say focus on one list, provide great content for that list, and get after it.
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_00: So people are listening to this, and they're probably some people um are thinking, okay, I have no idea how to get started with this.
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_00: I'm totally overwhelmed.
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_00: I just want to write, but I understand what what chat's talking about.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_00: What are what is the best way for them to get started on this journey of building their author platform?
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_01: And this is a big one.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_01: I I mean you and I talked before hitting record um about the struggles that writers have.
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_01: And one of the big ones is how do I build my platform and write my book at the same time?
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_01: Like that that's overwhelming, right?
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's enough for just to write my book, and now you're telling me I gotta build an audience.
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_01: Please, you know, give me a break.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_01: And the reality is there are seasons to these things.
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes we just need to go to a cabin somewhere uh and write our book.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm all for it.
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I'm a big advocate of writing retreats, you know, they're fantastic.
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so recognizing that, um, it's also, I think, very sustainable to work in a rhythm of growing your email list.
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_01: Again, start with start with.
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_01: I've worked with writers who've grown their email list by the hundreds, just reaching out to people they know.
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_01: You know, by the time they get to that 500th person, it might be a pretty distant acquaintance, but you can literally grow your list by the hundreds if just 15 minutes a day you start sending out those invitations that I talked about.
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_01: And and of course there are tactics beyond that, but that's a really great one to get started.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_01: Don't worry about all those other tactics, you know, worry about the eager sneezers initially.
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_01: And and whether you whether you do it 15 minutes a day or you say, I'm gonna send out 10 invitations a day, whatever works for you, uh, work that into your rhythm and think be intentional.
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_01: Does it make sense for you to do this in the morning, first thing, or does it make sense for you to do it after you've done your writing work?
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, make some experiments, do some experiments, see what works, and you really can do this.
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_00: So you mentioned Bootcamp a minute ago.
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_00: I do want to dive into this because this is a fascinating thing that you're offering, and you got a special offer, uh, especially for daily writer listeners.
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_00: Tell us what Bootcamp is, how it benefits them, and what the offer is, if you can.
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so uh BookCamp is a training and community hub for writers, and it's a membership program.
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_01: So it's subscription-based, it's a small monthly um charge.
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_01: And the goal is to help people on the the what I call the trail map of success.
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_01: So you start with so book camp, I'm using that camping language because that's been part, a big part of my own life.
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_01: So we inside book camp, we have a trail map.
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_01: And at the beginning of the trail map is establishing a writing habit.
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_01: And then there are seven more steps from you know, uh building a website to uh building your platform to developing your book concept to writing a book proposal to getting published, and then the summit is launching and promoting your book, and the members area of book camp is organized by those different stops along the trail map.
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_01: So we provide all the training and the community and accountability you need to take that long journey.
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, the thing about books is, you know, they take a while and building an audience takes a while.
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_01: So I created book camp with this vision of how can I support writers over the long haul at an affordable price and help them get their books into the world.
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_01: That's what Book Camp's all about.
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_00: I love that.
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_00: I love that.
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm sure you've had some really cool success stories from people who have gone through Bootcamp.
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_00: They've launched their books, they've written them, they've they've put these suckers out into the world and they're changing lives.
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_00: And they otherwise would not have written those.
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_00: And I know that's got to be really, really inspiring to see that.
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_01: It's why I get up every morning.
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I I have a vision of helping, you know, all these writers get their books into the world.
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_01: And so anytime, uh oftentimes writers will send me the book that they just completed.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_01: And so I hold it up and share it with the group.
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, I mean, that's what it's all about for me.
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_00: So, chat, for those of us who are kind of in this world of, you know, we have jobs that are all about helping authors and helping with writing and things like that.
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_00: One of my challenges is uh sometimes I find it a little difficult to focus on my own stuff because I'm so busy helping other people.
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_00: How do you find time to work on your own writing and content because you're investing so much emotional and mental energy to helping other people with their books and content?
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's a great question.
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I don't think of them as entirely separate.
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, the way that I support writers is with my own writing.
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_01: So um I, you know, uh in the future, I definitely want to sit down and write my own books.
• 31:43
  SPEAKER_01: Right now, I'm scaling my business to the place where I have a little more freedom to do that.
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_01: In the meantime, I serve my readers by writing to them, right?
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_01: Mainly in emails and blog posts, also social media posts.
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_01: So um, so there really isn't a divide there.
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_01: Um, it's it's one and the same thing.
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_01: The way I serve writers is by writing for them.
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and uh, and it's one of the great joys of my life.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_01: I love writing a new email to my list and and helping people out that way.
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_00: I love that.
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_00: Well, Chad, this has been an absolute blast.
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_00: I appreciate you sharing about Bootcamp and giving us some really specific details about building a platform that I don't think we've talked about on this podcast for a while.
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_00: So this has been really, really great.
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_00: I also want to take a second to acknowledge you in your your former role um with Baker.
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_00: And what was your title with Baker?
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_00: I you probably had several roles.
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_00: It it was it acquisitions, was that right?
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_01: So I went from project editor, overseeing copy editing, improved reading, to acquisitions editor to editorial director.
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I was fake.
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_01: But it was always on the editorial side.
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I wanted to say thank you for that because I'm sure that that you had a hand in many books that I have owned and read over the years as a per just as a reader, but also as a college professor.
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_00: Uh-and but I just didn't know that you were involved in those.
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_00: So thank you for all the value that you've added to people all over the world through through your role with Baker.
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_00: Um, an amazing publisher.
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_00: Gosh, I couldn't even tell you how many Baker books I've had over the years.
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_00: So really, really good stuff.
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_00: So I appreciate everything that you're doing to help writers, authors, and to get good books out into the world.
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_00: And um, it's just it's really making a huge difference.
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_01: Well, thank you.
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, my my time at Baker was one of I was there 16 plus years.
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_01: I still have very fond memories of Baker.
• 33:36
  SPEAKER_01: I'm still in touch with a lot of those folks.
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_01: And uh it was hard to leave.
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_01: I I knew that life was calling me forward into the next thing, but it was really hard to go.
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I still have, you know, they gave me these parting gifts that are still here in my office that I look at every day.
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_01: And uh yeah, but let me say this, Kent, but before we wrap up, let me let me say that um if your listeners want to go a step further, uh, for example, with platform building is one of the main things we do in Bootcamp.
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_01: I'd like to offer your listeners 30 days free inside Book Camp.
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_01: So uh you can come in, check it out.
• 34:17
  SPEAKER_01: Uh the link is gonna be chadrallan.com forward slash daily writer.
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_01: Cool.
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_01: And um it's gonna be that this offer will be good through 2021.
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_01: So come check it out.
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_01: No risk whatsoever.
• 34:31
  SPEAKER_01: We'd love to welcome you in so that you can experience it and make some solid progress on your book.
• 34:37
  SPEAKER_01: Fantastic.
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_00: Chad, thanks so much.
• 34:39
  SPEAKER_00: I appreciate this.
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um, yeah, this has been an absolute blast.
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_00: I love it.
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks again.
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, it's been fun.
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks for having me, Kent.
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_00: Hope you enjoyed that conversation.
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_00: I really enjoyed talking with Chad and was furiously taking notes altering this conversation.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, I've said this before on the podcast, but my secret agenda with this podcast really is to ask all the geeky questions about marketing, writing, productivity, and book stuff that I want to ask of my mentors and heroes.
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_00: And I just happen to share these conversations with you.
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_00: Now, I'm being a little facetious, of course, I want this podcast to serve you, but there is definitely an element to where it is so cool that I get to ask people that I really respect and admire all of my questions that I would love to have answered about all this stuff related to books, marketing, and uh platform building and so forth.
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_00: So I hope that you enjoyed this as much as I did.
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_00: I would say my main takeaway from this conversation is simply the importance of building your platform.
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_00: Something that we have to get into our minds as writers is that it's not just about the writing.
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_00: It's not just about creating a great book.
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_00: Obviously that's important, but you can create a great book or you can create great content.
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_00: But if it's not marketed and if it's not shared with people, it doesn't really make a difference.
• 35:53
  SPEAKER_00: It's like that that old saying of if a tree falls in the forest, does it make a sound?
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_00: Well, of course it makes a sound, but nobody's going to hear it if nobody's around.
• 36:02
  SPEAKER_00: It's the same thing with your book marketing.
• 36:04
  SPEAKER_00: If you put a great book out into the world, but yet nobody knows it's there, does it really make a difference?
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_00: Of course, the book is going to make a difference for you, but it's not going to make the difference in other people's lives that it can if you don't marketing market it.
• 36:17
  SPEAKER_00: And building a platform is a critical component of all that.
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_00: So I hope that you take Chad's advice to heart from this episode.
• 36:24
  SPEAKER_00: Again, make sure to check out his free 30-day trial of Bootcamp.
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_00: And uh, again, there will be a link to that in the show notes.
• 36:31
  SPEAKER_00: That's a really, really good deal, and he's got some really cool stuff going on there.
• 36:33
  SPEAKER_00: So make sure and check that out.
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_00: Finally, thanks to Chad for taking the time out of his really busy schedule to be a guest on the podcast.
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_00: I love the insights that he shared, and I hope that you benefited as well.
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_00: It's been a blast, and I will see you in the next episode.
• 36:47
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks so much for listening to today's episode.
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_00: I want to take a moment to let you know about our Daily Writer membership community.
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_00: You know, one of the very best ways to develop better habits and impact more people's lives with your writing is to spend time around other successful writers.
• 37:03
  SPEAKER_00: So if you're tired of feeling isolated and chasting success on your own, then I know you're gonna love the Daily Writer community.
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_00: For years, I searched for the kind of writing community that I would want to join, but I can never find what I wanted, so I created my own.
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_00: Some of the features include weekly writing sprints, monthly community calls, book discussions, calls with guest experts, and much more.
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_00: For more info, you can visit dailywriterlife.comslash community.
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks, and I'll see you tomorrow.