Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / Honor Roll Students Turned Armed Bank Robbers by Greedy Dad

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Honor Roll Students Turned Armed Bank Robbers by Greedy Dad · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:05
Speaker 1: Crime stories with Nancy Grace outside waiting in a getaway car,
0:13
Speaker 1: in communicating with the men on waukie talkie. Eighteen year
0:16
Speaker 1: old Dabby. Once we walked into the bank that it
0:19
Speaker 1: was on, I was running on so much adrenaline and
0:21
Speaker 1: so as I wasn't even really feeling anything. Two individuals
0:24
Speaker 1: walked into the bank and they ordered the tellers and
0:26
Speaker 1: everyone into the vault. She was the muscle with the
0:29
Speaker 1: gun and I was the money guy. Both men are big,
0:32
Speaker 1: over sixty three. Their sheer size and the gun enough
0:36
Speaker 1: to terrify customers, but it's a novice bank robber who's
0:40
Speaker 1: quaking in his boots. I was actually shaking so bad
0:43
Speaker 1: that the employees grabbed the bag and started throwing money
0:46
Speaker 1: in for me. In Hayden's hands, more money than he'd
0:49
Speaker 1: ever dreamed of. How much those fifty thousand dollars away,
0:52
Speaker 1: I'd say fifteen pounds. With her garbage bag full of cash,
0:56
Speaker 1: they sprint out of a bank to the getaway car,
0:58
Speaker 1: which has been outfitted with stolen place the wheelmen a
1:02
Speaker 1: frightened teenager. I was scared. It's just something that it's
1:06
Speaker 1: like one to be over with a teen girls. Part
1:10
Speaker 1: of a vicious bank robbery gang. How the hate did
1:15
Speaker 1: that happen? I guess you'd be pretty surprised like I
1:18
Speaker 1: am when I finally learned that it's all in the family.
1:23
Speaker 1: That's right, the children recruited by the father to become
1:30
Speaker 1: armed bank robbers. I mean, see, Grace, this is crime stories.
1:34
Speaker 1: Thank you for being with us. You know, I'm constantly thinking, Oh,
1:38
Speaker 1: what do I need to do to help the twins?
1:41
Speaker 1: Should I get them a math tutor? Have they been
1:44
Speaker 1: outside enough today? You know what? They have not had
1:47
Speaker 1: five servings of veggies, and I know it. What can
1:50
Speaker 1: I possibly do? How can I disguise fruit and vegetables
1:54
Speaker 1: in their drinks? I mean, it goes on. It's constantly
1:57
Speaker 1: twisting and turning in my brain. It hadn't occurred to
2:02
Speaker 1: me to Ashley Wilcott, judge lawyer anchor. You can find
2:07
Speaker 1: her Ashley Wilcott dot com, that maybe I could get John,
2:11
Speaker 1: David and Lucy to join my robin crew. Nancy, it's
2:14
Speaker 1: not funny, But I'm just sitting here smiling because here's
2:16
Speaker 1: the truth of the matter, and it's really sad. Desperate measures, right,
2:20
Speaker 1: Desperate measures is what this father took to ever think
2:24
Speaker 1: about involving his children, and who cares their ages? They
2:29
Speaker 1: were above the age of eighteen or eighteen and older.
2:31
Speaker 1: Who cares? It doesn't matter, you don't involve your children
2:34
Speaker 1: in criminal activity. But clearly a very desperate man. Well
2:40
Speaker 1: you know what to doctor Ryan Fuller, joining US clinical
2:43
Speaker 1: psychologists and the executive director at New York Behavioral Health.
2:47
Speaker 1: Doctor Fuller, I remember long, long days in the courtroom.
2:53
Speaker 1: You know, you'd be there for eight am, bright eyed
2:55
Speaker 1: and bushey, tilled with You know those white plastic boxes
3:00
Speaker 1: that mail carriers use to deliver mail throughout office. Okay,
3:04
Speaker 1: everybody knows what they are. No, I did not steal them, okay,
3:09
Speaker 1: because I would never steal. But I did use some
3:14
Speaker 1: that were lying around vacant in the hallways. Okay. My
3:17
Speaker 1: point is they're the perfect size to put trial folders,
3:21
Speaker 1: those Manila folders, And for any given calendar call, they'd
3:24
Speaker 1: be one hundred and fifty or more individual cases. So
3:28
Speaker 1: I'd be dragging those around the courthouse all day long,
3:31
Speaker 1: getting ready for arrayment calendars or trials, blah blah. After
3:36
Speaker 1: I would typically hook up with my best friend girl
3:41
Speaker 1: and we'd get dinner, and then I could go home
3:43
Speaker 1: and work somewhere. I remember it was one of those nights.
3:46
Speaker 1: It was dark by the time I got off of work,
3:49
Speaker 1: and I went to a local restaurant I think it
3:52
Speaker 1: was a Houstons, and out in the parking lot, a
3:56
Speaker 1: lady came up to me holding a baby and said
3:59
Speaker 1: she need did bus fare to get to somewhere. She
4:01
Speaker 1: had the baby. It was not a baby doll. It
4:04
Speaker 1: was real. I looked at it. Of course, I had nothing.
4:08
Speaker 1: I was a state prosecutor working two night jobs. I
4:10
Speaker 1: think I had like three dollars seriously with me, and
4:15
Speaker 1: I gave her everything I had, and I just felt
4:18
Speaker 1: so bad that I didn't have more than that for her. Okay,
4:21
Speaker 1: I the blue. The next night, my now husband said, hey,
4:26
Speaker 1: let's go to Houston's and get a chicken salad. I'm
4:28
Speaker 1: like great, So I went over there. Guests who came
4:31
Speaker 1: up to me and the parking lot the same woman,
4:35
Speaker 1: this time with a man, a grown man, a woman
4:39
Speaker 1: and a baby. And I don't know what I was thinking,
4:41
Speaker 1: because I tell my children, if somebody approaches you or
4:44
Speaker 1: even looks you in the eyes and a parking lot,
4:47
Speaker 1: walk away quickly. Honey. I let loose on them, like
4:50
Speaker 1: nobody's business about using a child out in a parking
4:56
Speaker 1: lot at that time. Of I don't know what I thought,
5:00
Speaker 1: like what I had on a bulletproof vest I gave.
5:02
Speaker 1: I took them to Helen back about using that baby
5:06
Speaker 1: and the baby should be at home and whatever, and
5:11
Speaker 1: I immediately called nine one one and had them report.
5:16
Speaker 1: I don't know if they actually got them or not
5:19
Speaker 1: to get the baby out of that situation. My point
5:22
Speaker 1: is children are used. Children are used for the parents' goals,
5:30
Speaker 1: and this is a perfect example of that. Putting your
5:33
Speaker 1: teen children in an armed bank robbery situation. The victims
5:40
Speaker 1: at the bank and the guards at the bank, they
5:42
Speaker 1: have no idea these are children. Yeah, I think there's
5:45
Speaker 1: no question from the news reports as actually Wilcot just said,
5:49
Speaker 1: I agree, desperation is even an understatement. You know. It
5:54
Speaker 1: sounds of his father who was experiencing financial problems and
5:57
Speaker 1: grief and worry, and the judgment that was them clemented
6:00
Speaker 1: was just unbelievable. There had to be rationalizations where he's thinking,
6:04
Speaker 1: no one's getting harmed because we're not using real guns.
6:07
Speaker 1: My kids are going to be safe. We can't possibly
6:10
Speaker 1: get caught, and clearly anyone can recognize that's just not
6:13
Speaker 1: the case. The tellers alone or obviously put its great
6:17
Speaker 1: risk in the harm, probably because of the trauma. They
6:20
Speaker 1: don't know. The guns weren't they were being used, weren't real,
6:23
Speaker 1: So it would make sense that some of them could have,
6:25
Speaker 1: you know, horrible emotional and psychological reactions after that. Police
6:29
Speaker 1: officers responding to the scene are speeding to get there
6:32
Speaker 1: as quickly as they can and putting themselves and anyone
6:35
Speaker 1: else on the road at risk. The kids, you know,
6:38
Speaker 1: his children, even though they're adults, I mean, what would
6:41
Speaker 1: happen to their their sense of their own values and morality,
6:44
Speaker 1: And from some of the news reports, clearly there's a
6:46
Speaker 1: lot of guilt and shame and embarrassment afterwards. And so
6:50
Speaker 1: I just think, you know, it's it's clear when things
6:53
Speaker 1: become that extreme judgment went out the window and put
6:57
Speaker 1: everyone at risk, even even when someone thinks they're than
7:00
Speaker 1: a chance of people getting hurt. I mean, clearly everyone
7:03
Speaker 1: involved and even customers in the bank would put at risk.
7:06
Speaker 1: Anyone could have started a gun fight at any point.
7:08
Speaker 1: You're so right, Because Vincent Hill cop turned PI, author
7:12
Speaker 1: of playbook to a murder on Amazon Vincent Hill. When
7:15
Speaker 1: doctor Ryan Fuller says they weren't using real guns, he's right.
7:19
Speaker 1: The teams may not have been using real guns. But
7:22
Speaker 1: I can guarantee you this Vincent Hill, the security guards
7:25
Speaker 1: had real guns. If the cops get there in time,
7:28
Speaker 1: they have real guns. What about that? That's right, Nancy.
7:31
Speaker 1: And I can't tell you how many police shootings have
7:33
Speaker 1: occurred by people who had fake guns. Think about Tami
7:38
Speaker 1: or Rights and all these other countless police shootings. And
7:41
Speaker 1: I was in a situation where I almost shot a
7:44
Speaker 1: team who had a fake gun. So the fact that
7:46
Speaker 1: it was fake security doesn't know it. Police definitely don't
7:50
Speaker 1: know it. All they know is they're responding to an
7:52
Speaker 1: armed robbery because even though it's a plastic gun or
7:55
Speaker 1: a fake gun, the intent of the robbery makes it
7:58
Speaker 1: an armed robber. So police would react with what they
8:02
Speaker 1: think is deadly, forced and frankly ash Wolcott. The law
8:05
Speaker 1: specifically states regarding armed robbery. It is in black and white.
8:09
Speaker 1: The statutory code is that an armed robbery is when
8:13
Speaker 1: you use a weapon or a facsimile their ob That's
8:16
Speaker 1: what the word facts means, facsimile. It is a representation
8:21
Speaker 1: of the original document. That's what the law means. You
8:25
Speaker 1: can have a toy gun or something that looks like
8:27
Speaker 1: a gun is still treated as an armed robbery. The
8:30
Speaker 1: effect on the victims is the same, Ashley, That's what
8:32
Speaker 1: I was going to say. It's because of the effect
8:34
Speaker 1: on the victim and the perception. So someone's not going
8:37
Speaker 1: to necessarily know, oh it's a fake gun, oh it's
8:40
Speaker 1: a real gun, and so the law has to reflect
8:42
Speaker 1: that in order to protect the people that are being robbed,
8:47
Speaker 1: and also to make it clear it doesn't matter if
8:50
Speaker 1: you're pretending a gun or not. The intent is you're
8:53
Speaker 1: using a deadly weapon to actually steal. Take a listen
8:56
Speaker 1: to our friends at twenty twenty, she really wanted my help.
9:00
Speaker 1: His mind, two people could be much more successful on it,
9:03
Speaker 1: but maybe a third would be even better, and there
9:06
Speaker 1: was just one cat left to choose. Scott told Hayden
9:10
Speaker 1: to talk to his sister into joining their gang. She
9:12
Speaker 1: was a high school senior, just three months shy of graduating.
9:16
Speaker 1: My dad sent my brother to ask me. Your dad
9:19
Speaker 1: sent your brother to ask you, yeah, to rob backs
9:22
Speaker 1: with him. Yeah. And then the next day my dad
9:25
Speaker 1: just basically laid it all out, you know, buying a
9:31
Speaker 1: new car, I mean to an apartment. Could you have asked, well,
9:36
Speaker 1: why don't you just give me the money? Why do
9:38
Speaker 1: I have to be a bank robber with you? No,
9:40
Speaker 1: I never asked. I mean, it's just in some way
9:44
Speaker 1: I was led on like, this is how I protect them,
9:49
Speaker 1: and these are the only people I have now son
9:51
Speaker 1: and daughters say this is when they crossed over to
9:54
Speaker 1: the criminal side. A plan was in motion, the mark
9:58
Speaker 1: the America Bank just down the luck. The morning of
10:01
Speaker 1: the first bank I asked my dad, you know, are
10:03
Speaker 1: you the devil here to tell me? And his answer
10:07
Speaker 1: is what really scared me. He said, yeah, probably, I'm
10:10
Speaker 1: asking you to rub a bank. So he knew full
10:13
Speaker 1: well the world he was bringing you into. The biggest
10:17
Speaker 1: point he made to me it was the plan for
10:18
Speaker 1: all the details time stories with Nancy Grace in Hateen
10:39
Speaker 1: hands more money than he'd ever dreamed of. How much
10:42
Speaker 1: just fifty thousand dollars away, I'd say about fifteen pounds.
10:45
Speaker 1: With her garbage bag full of cash, they sprint out
10:48
Speaker 1: of the bank to the getaway car, which has been
10:50
Speaker 1: outfitted with stolen plates. The wheelman a frightened teenager. I
10:55
Speaker 1: was scared. It's just something he's like one to be
10:59
Speaker 1: over with. And what was it like driving the getaway car?
11:03
Speaker 1: You know, it's hard because you want to obey traffic
11:05
Speaker 1: class but your adrenaline is pumping. It was hard behind
11:08
Speaker 1: them in my ear my dad were yelled at, mean,
11:10
Speaker 1: it's not drive fast, So I didn't, despite the heckling
11:15
Speaker 1: from her backseat driver. Dad, the reluctant eighteen year old
11:18
Speaker 1: gets them to their apartment half mile away. Undetected guys
11:22
Speaker 1: had gone off without a hitch, just like Dad had promised.
11:26
Speaker 1: Was there a woohoo moment? That's who we got home
11:29
Speaker 1: with her sack full of fifty grand. The spending began, cars, motorcycles,
11:34
Speaker 1: booze and drugs. I'd be spending much more sensible, did
11:38
Speaker 1: you guys celebrate? I went off on my own and
11:42
Speaker 1: disc got my nails done. In fact, the money came
11:45
Speaker 1: so easily and went so fast the two months they
11:48
Speaker 1: burned through all their loot. Time for another bank job.
11:52
Speaker 1: You're hearing our buddy Matt Getman. Ever at twenty twenty
11:55
Speaker 1: at ABC. Okay, askey well kle let me circle back
11:58
Speaker 1: to you isn't it you that was saying desperate times
12:02
Speaker 1: call for desperate measures. Is the rest of that quote? Desperate, desperate, desperate?
12:07
Speaker 1: I hardly think that buying new cars in booze for
12:11
Speaker 1: your teen children is desperate. Desperate to me means you
12:16
Speaker 1: can't pay the rent, you're losing your apartment, you've lost
12:19
Speaker 1: your car, and you can't eat. That's what desperate means
12:22
Speaker 1: to me. Your child needs to go to the hospital
12:24
Speaker 1: and you don't have any money. That's desperate. Buying your
12:27
Speaker 1: teen child booze and new cars that is not desperate,
12:31
Speaker 1: asked she Willcot. I mean, you're the judge, you know,
12:34
Speaker 1: I'm just a trial lawyer. But I object that is
12:37
Speaker 1: not desperate. That is greed. The thought of putting your child,
12:42
Speaker 1: your team girl driving a bank heist getaway car. And
12:48
Speaker 1: you asked you Walcott, don't made me play it back,
12:51
Speaker 1: said desperate times. That's not desperate, that's greedy. You're right,
12:56
Speaker 1: it is greed. Not only that, but add list to
12:59
Speaker 1: the list of qualities, White Jackie. Can you please just
13:05
Speaker 1: get her saying you're right, because I'm going to play
13:08
Speaker 1: that over and over and over just whenever I feel
13:11
Speaker 1: like it. Okay, Okay, what were you saying? So add
13:14
Speaker 1: to the list of qualities of this quote unquote father,
13:17
Speaker 1: and yes it's in quotes because it is not he
13:21
Speaker 1: is certainly not acting as a father, but lack of integrity,
13:24
Speaker 1: because you're right, if they didn't have food, if they
13:28
Speaker 1: were literally unable to get money to put food in
13:31
Speaker 1: their mouths, that is desperation. This is greed. It is
13:38
Speaker 1: teaching the children in addition to all the other things
13:42
Speaker 1: already mentioned in terms of not teaching these children right
13:45
Speaker 1: from wrong, and it's also teaching them, oh, it's okay
13:49
Speaker 1: to take what we want when we want certain things
13:51
Speaker 1: in life that are materialistic, like a new car. You know,
13:54
Speaker 1: I've seen, especially when I was a camp counselor so
13:58
Speaker 1: many spoiled, rotten, greedy brats, and it's a very off putting.
14:04
Speaker 1: But in this case, it sounds more like the dad
14:07
Speaker 1: is the greedy brat. You know. I want to talk
14:09
Speaker 1: to you. Vincent, the hill cop turned Pi, author of
14:12
Speaker 1: playbook to a murder on Amazon. Vincent. How many times
14:16
Speaker 1: have people been killed in car chases? Probably more than
14:21
Speaker 1: they have been shot down in banks. But think about it.
14:25
Speaker 1: The cops are chasing a car you've got a teen
14:28
Speaker 1: girl driving the car. You've got the dad in the
14:31
Speaker 1: back seat to talk about a backseat driver heckling the
14:35
Speaker 1: girl as she's trying to get away from an armed
14:39
Speaker 1: robbery with a trash bag full of stolen money, and
14:44
Speaker 1: the dad is in the back seat egging her on
14:48
Speaker 1: and attacking her verbally about the way she's driving. He
14:52
Speaker 1: makes the boy go in and steal, and the girl
14:57
Speaker 1: drive the getaway and he's in the back seat laying hello.
15:00
Speaker 1: How many people die every month, every week in getaway cars, Nancy.
15:07
Speaker 1: One of the worst red Cyber worked while I was
15:10
Speaker 1: in patrol was a mom and her son who were
15:13
Speaker 1: killed from a car that was splinging from police. And
15:16
Speaker 1: the sad part about this, Nancy, is typically the person
15:20
Speaker 1: that's fleeing from police aren't the ones that are injured.
15:23
Speaker 1: It's always the innocent family that just happened to be
15:27
Speaker 1: caught in the crossfire. If you will, this high speed
15:31
Speaker 1: chase over something so foolish as robbing a bank so
15:35
Speaker 1: you can go buy liquor and cars and all of
15:38
Speaker 1: this stuff, Nancy, But every day in this country, someone
15:42
Speaker 1: is dying. Be can I'll tell you about that about liquor.
15:45
Speaker 1: You know, the other night I had Lucy. I went
15:51
Speaker 1: to her new girl Scout troop at our church. It
15:54
Speaker 1: was late at night and I was sitting there listening.
15:56
Speaker 1: They were talking about drugs and alcohol. Speaking of look her,
16:00
Speaker 1: I learned the other night, once you get hooked on alcohol,
16:05
Speaker 1: you only have a twelve percent chance of ever getting
16:09
Speaker 1: off of it. With drugs, it's a lot, a lot worse.
16:11
Speaker 1: Like with meth, you've got a three percent chance of
16:14
Speaker 1: beating it. I looked over at Lucy Ashley, you know,
16:18
Speaker 1: Lucy very very well. I looked over at Lucy, and
16:21
Speaker 1: they had up the meth face, you know, with the
16:23
Speaker 1: face covered in sores where the people think there's bugs
16:27
Speaker 1: on them and they scratch them off. If you could
16:29
Speaker 1: have seen that child's face, I almost started laughing, but
16:33
Speaker 1: I knew it was too serious to laugh. I think
16:35
Speaker 1: they scared her. So let's just say that I think
16:39
Speaker 1: she'll get through the sixth grade without trying meth. Now
16:41
Speaker 1: I'm crossing myself right now, but my point is the
16:45
Speaker 1: bank robbery is the worst part. The guns the worst part.
16:49
Speaker 1: But on top of that, when they get the bank money,
16:53
Speaker 1: he gives them liquor. Their teens. This is so screw rude. Up, Ashley,
17:01
Speaker 1: help me, you know, I wish I could help you. Nancy.
17:04
Speaker 1: I'm gonna say this, being on the bench and seeing
17:06
Speaker 1: offenses all day long. When I'm on the bench, nothing
17:09
Speaker 1: surprises me anymore. It this really makes me sick to
17:13
Speaker 1: my stomach because parents are supposed to protect their children,
17:19
Speaker 1: are supposed to instill in their children the things that
17:22
Speaker 1: are right and wrong and how to be kind and
17:26
Speaker 1: how to not break the law. Instead this person, And
17:29
Speaker 1: again I'm saying person not father. This is not a father.
17:32
Speaker 1: This is not a father. This is someone who is
17:35
Speaker 1: not only teaching his children wrong instead of right, he's
17:40
Speaker 1: actually using his children to his advantage by committing crimes
17:46
Speaker 1: that could have resulted in them even being killed. You know, Ashley,
17:50
Speaker 1: how much do I obsess over the twins? Like how
17:53
Speaker 1: many times have I cornered you and this parking lot
17:57
Speaker 1: or that parking lot when I spot you and go?
18:00
Speaker 1: Do you think band is too much? Because is it
18:04
Speaker 1: going to take too much time away from studying? And
18:06
Speaker 1: what about drama? If they sign up for drama, they
18:10
Speaker 1: gotta go to all these practices and they blah blah blah,
18:14
Speaker 1: blah blah. I'm worried about them going to a drama
18:17
Speaker 1: class and this guy has his kids and a getaway car.
18:21
Speaker 1: How did it all start? Listen a light to him
18:24
Speaker 1: about it, and I told him I was going to quit,
18:26
Speaker 1: but I didn't do quite a bit behind their back,
18:30
Speaker 1: and some of it in plain sight. There were arrests.
18:33
Speaker 1: There was brawling, disorderly conduct, and a new more expensive vice, cocaine.
18:38
Speaker 1: He says, three four round a week, and the kids
18:42
Speaker 1: often found themselves assuming the roles of parents. Times went
18:46
Speaker 1: on the lunch break in school. I was going to
18:50
Speaker 1: pay the light bill and I picked up his clothes
18:52
Speaker 1: from the dry cleaner. Scott partied away their savings. They
18:57
Speaker 1: went bankrupt, they lost their home. The lights were out
19:00
Speaker 1: for a fresh started. Scott says, a new job. Can't
19:03
Speaker 1: traded the Oregon greenery for this scenery. An apartment Houston
19:10
Speaker 1: suburb with a whole lot of banks nearby. Money was
19:13
Speaker 1: tight and I was really depressed. That's when he approached
19:17
Speaker 1: me and said, would you be willing to do something
19:19
Speaker 1: to get some money more illegal than selling drugs? And
19:21
Speaker 1: I said yes. So you're eighteen years old, you need money.
19:24
Speaker 1: Your father says I have a plan to rob a bank.
19:27
Speaker 1: Shouldn't your first reaction be are you crazy? Looking back
19:30
Speaker 1: on it, I can't believe that that wasn't my first
19:32
Speaker 1: reaction to say, what are you insane? Why did you
19:35
Speaker 1: go along with it so easily? I had a real struggle.
19:38
Speaker 1: I knew it was wrong, but I was really motivated
19:40
Speaker 1: by the money. The night before the first bank I
19:43
Speaker 1: was supposed to rob with him, I had kind of
19:45
Speaker 1: a panic attack all night, deciding do I want to
19:47
Speaker 1: go down this path of evil? Or is this not
19:50
Speaker 1: for me? Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Time for another
20:11
Speaker 1: bank job, the first Community Credit Union, just a few
20:15
Speaker 1: miles from the scene of their first crime before the
20:18
Speaker 1: hit Abbey Cases the bank That's hurt, smiling and grabbing
20:22
Speaker 1: brochures from a bank employee. Eleven days later, it's the
20:26
Speaker 1: SAME's real new disguises, ditching the painter's overalls for safety
20:31
Speaker 1: vests to blend in with nearby construction. They walked into
20:35
Speaker 1: the bank with orange construction vest sign. Did you carry
20:38
Speaker 1: a gun in there? No, which bees a little BB gun,
20:42
Speaker 1: but it looked real. Yeah. I remember a few people's
20:45
Speaker 1: face Still, what was their reaction? Total shock? The terror Yeah,
20:50
Speaker 1: they were scared, terrified. Definitely, their take after two bank
20:53
Speaker 1: robberies over one hundred thousand dollars, Holly, Molly, you're hearing
20:58
Speaker 1: our buddy Matt Gutman over at ABC's twenty twenty over
21:02
Speaker 1: a hundred thousand dollars after the first bank robbery. Then
21:06
Speaker 1: suddenly they needed more money than more money, than more money.
21:09
Speaker 1: You know that's something in people's psyche. Doctor Ryan Fuller
21:12
Speaker 1: are clinical psychologist, executive director in The York Behavioral Health.
21:16
Speaker 1: You know, it's like drugs. You get the first hit
21:19
Speaker 1: and then you want some more or money. I'm telling you,
21:21
Speaker 1: the love of money the root of all evil. You
21:23
Speaker 1: get a paycheck and then suddenly you want some more.
21:26
Speaker 1: You want more and more and more. Is feeding the
21:29
Speaker 1: be same thing here? What is it about as humans?
21:32
Speaker 1: Why do we always want more and more of everything?
21:35
Speaker 1: One of the things that came to mind has almost
21:37
Speaker 1: sounded like someone who has a gambling addiction, and the
21:41
Speaker 1: son Hayden actually even described it that way that it
21:43
Speaker 1: almost felt like an addiction. They couldn't get enough, and
21:46
Speaker 1: if you see kind of the behavior, you know they
21:48
Speaker 1: have they have plans about what they're gonna do with
21:50
Speaker 1: the money and they're gonna, you know, save it and
21:53
Speaker 1: open a coffee shop, I think was one of the plans.
21:55
Speaker 1: But then as soon as as soon as they have
21:57
Speaker 1: all this cash in hand, you know, ends up being
21:59
Speaker 1: spent on things that are just sort of short term
22:01
Speaker 1: fixes to two emotional problems in the fear and escaping
22:05
Speaker 1: from reality. And then unfortunately they're in the same same
22:08
Speaker 1: situation again and put at risk in going back into
22:10
Speaker 1: the casino the same way a gambler does, rationalizing that
22:13
Speaker 1: this will fix it. And the cyclodist continues, but can
22:17
Speaker 1: I ask you a question, and you're gonna have to
22:18
Speaker 1: dummy down for me, doctor Fuller. Is there something in
22:22
Speaker 1: people's brains? I know they've done all the studies on
22:26
Speaker 1: rats where you give them a little cocaine and then
22:28
Speaker 1: they get addicted and they perform all sorts of experiments
22:32
Speaker 1: on them. I'm not talking about drugs. I'm talking about
22:35
Speaker 1: experiences like gambling, like taking risks, like sexoholics, something that's
22:43
Speaker 1: non substance related, like robbing banks. Is there some type
22:47
Speaker 1: of an addiction to adrenaline that is there something physical
22:52
Speaker 1: in your body or your brain that makes you want
22:55
Speaker 1: to keep doing it more and more and more. Yeah,
22:56
Speaker 1: there can be. So one of the first studies I
22:58
Speaker 1: worked on when I was very young graduate school actually
23:01
Speaker 1: was was a casino study. Was actually looking at how
23:04
Speaker 1: do people kind of become addicted and get hooked by
23:08
Speaker 1: stop machines. And you know, these casinos they actually study
23:12
Speaker 1: this so they can come up with the right amount
23:14
Speaker 1: of money payoff and the right ratio. And so when
23:17
Speaker 1: people are involved in gambling or you could mentioned you know,
23:20
Speaker 1: sex edition and things like that, there's a blast of
23:23
Speaker 1: things like dopamine. All these pleasure centers get lit up,
23:26
Speaker 1: and obviously that feels really good and it's very reinforcing.
23:29
Speaker 1: And if you think about the reality of those people's
23:32
Speaker 1: lives outside of robbing the bank and the big payoff,
23:37
Speaker 1: not a lot of fun. I mean, running from bills
23:40
Speaker 1: and coming back to you know, feeling like you're bankrupt
23:42
Speaker 1: and you're not feeling good about yourself. And then the
23:44
Speaker 1: next thing you know, you're in this exciting experience, you know,
23:48
Speaker 1: where all of a sudden, your brain is being flooded
23:50
Speaker 1: with excitement and all this stuff. Even even if there's
23:53
Speaker 1: danger involved, this is a high level of arousal and
23:55
Speaker 1: that can become quite addictive. Wow. Okay, so dopamine joining
23:59
Speaker 1: me right now now, Crime online dot Com and Investigative
24:02
Speaker 1: Reporter where you can find this and all other breaking
24:05
Speaker 1: crime and justice needs Ellen colorin Ellen. I need the
24:08
Speaker 1: nuts and bolts of this case. Right now. I only
24:11
Speaker 1: know about a dad really forcing, through the art of persuasion,
24:17
Speaker 1: his children to perform armed bank robberies. Then he declares
24:21
Speaker 1: bankruptcy multiple times because all that money just isn't enough
24:28
Speaker 1: for him. So let's just start at the beginning. What happened, Deka,
24:32
Speaker 1: well Nancy. Things started off good for Scott kat He
24:36
Speaker 1: married his high school sweetheart Best Say. They lived in
24:39
Speaker 1: Orderon in a beautiful home. They had two children, and
24:42
Speaker 1: then tragically his wife best got cancer and she died
24:47
Speaker 1: very young. It's just two years later when Abigail was
24:50
Speaker 1: just a baby, and Scott says he just couldn't handle it.
24:55
Speaker 1: He fell apart. He had a good job as a
24:57
Speaker 1: structural engineer, but he was drinking, he was doing drugs,
25:00
Speaker 1: he was partying. He wasn't being the present father. Wait
25:05
Speaker 1: wait wait wait wait wait wait e K I'm slow down,
25:11
Speaker 1: I'm jinking from the fire hydrant here. You're hitting me
25:13
Speaker 1: with too much too fast, Ellen, don't be surprised at
25:17
Speaker 1: Sometimes in law school, with an especially long sentence in
25:21
Speaker 1: one of these Supreme Court rulings, I'd have to read
25:24
Speaker 1: the sentence like three or four times and break it
25:26
Speaker 1: down into parts and then interpret it and write it
25:30
Speaker 1: in the you know, the side of the page so
25:34
Speaker 1: I could understand it. I gotta do that with you.
25:36
Speaker 1: I gotta break down what you just said. Now. I
25:39
Speaker 1: get it that he was married to his high school sweetheart, Beth,
25:43
Speaker 1: they have the children, then suddenly Beth passes away. The
25:46
Speaker 1: children are babies, and you said he fell apart. But
25:50
Speaker 1: did I just hear you say partying? Because in my mind,
25:55
Speaker 1: grieving for your high school sweetheart turned wife turned mom
25:58
Speaker 1: of your children, parting does not really fit into that
26:02
Speaker 1: scenario from me. Now, did you just say that word partying? Yeah?
26:05
Speaker 1: And I guess probably a better word would be bar crawling. Um,
26:08
Speaker 1: he wasn't, oh number one. Technically, technically that's two words.
26:13
Speaker 1: But bar crawling to me is even worse. I mean,
26:16
Speaker 1: where are your children while you're, as you say, bar crawling?
26:20
Speaker 1: Where are the babies? Where were they? Well, once, once
26:23
Speaker 1: they were older, they were they were really on their own. Um,
26:26
Speaker 1: they weren't. They were having to take when they were teenagers.
26:30
Speaker 1: They were having to pay bills for the holes. Okay,
26:33
Speaker 1: wait a minute, you're going so fast. I asked you
26:36
Speaker 1: where were the babies, and suddenly they're teenagers in your mind, Eka,
26:39
Speaker 1: paying bills. Basically as she will caught, they were raised
26:43
Speaker 1: like bears in a cave. The father just goes off
26:46
Speaker 1: bar crawling and leaves the children at home. As I
26:49
Speaker 1: used to say to David, those babies ain't going to
26:51
Speaker 1: change their diapies theirselves get in there. So I mean,
26:54
Speaker 1: who's taking care of these children? The mom passes away tragically.
26:58
Speaker 1: She seemed to be the glue that holds the family
26:59
Speaker 1: to other and the dad's out at the bar. Hello, Yeah,
27:03
Speaker 1: he's not raising them. I would suggest that it's not
27:05
Speaker 1: even raising them like bears. He's not raising his children.
27:08
Speaker 1: He is focused on himself, egocentric, doing whatever he wants.
27:12
Speaker 1: He is not raising his children. He's leaving them to
27:15
Speaker 1: raise themselves. Oh okay, Eka, not that you have misreported anything.
27:21
Speaker 1: It's me. It's not you. I feel like we're breaking up.
27:24
Speaker 1: It's me, not you. Explain to me again. So let's
27:27
Speaker 1: just pick off before the teams are paying bills. I
27:29
Speaker 1: want to get back to the babies at home alone
27:31
Speaker 1: while dad's at the bar. Part the mom passes away,
27:34
Speaker 1: he goes spiraling down, And seriously, I'm kind of like
27:37
Speaker 1: pulling your leg a little bit, KA, because grief takes
27:42
Speaker 1: all sorts off forms. You can become an alcoholic, you
27:49
Speaker 1: can become depressed and commit suicide, you can go in
27:52
Speaker 1: a sex spiral, you can do all sorts of things
27:55
Speaker 1: you would normally do had you not lost the person
27:58
Speaker 1: you love. So I'm actually not judging him for the
28:02
Speaker 1: bar crawling, except for the fact that children are at
28:04
Speaker 1: home alone, so they go into a period of mourning.
28:08
Speaker 1: But what happens then, you know what, I'll advance you
28:10
Speaker 1: up to the ten years. What happened well, because of
28:14
Speaker 1: the drinking and the excessive spending. Even though Scott has
28:17
Speaker 1: a good job, he he doesn't feel like enough, he's
28:20
Speaker 1: not making ends meet like he wants to. And his
28:25
Speaker 1: own father worked at a bank and that's what puts
28:28
Speaker 1: the idea in his mind that maybe he can rob
28:31
Speaker 1: a bank, because he remembers as a child his father
28:34
Speaker 1: coming home from work one day and saying, we were
28:37
Speaker 1: robbed today at the bank, and young Scott says, well
28:41
Speaker 1: what about the money, and the father says, don't worry,
28:44
Speaker 1: We're insured. So Scott's thinking, even if I take this
28:47
Speaker 1: money from the bank, they're going to get it back.
28:50
Speaker 1: So he's already rationalizing it, I'm not really stealing it
28:53
Speaker 1: at all because they're going to have it replaced. Wow. Okay,
28:56
Speaker 1: so all this really started when the dad was a
28:59
Speaker 1: kid and his dad, who worked at a bank, comes
29:02
Speaker 1: home and says, we were robbed. That's a yes. No.
29:05
Speaker 1: Did I get that right? Eka? Okay, so this is
29:07
Speaker 1: what I know. Also, the children, Hayden Abbey did manage
29:12
Speaker 1: to attend mcmnville High School. They were both honor students
29:17
Speaker 1: and members of the swimming team, so he was doing
29:20
Speaker 1: something right. Scott kat was the president of the mcmanville
29:25
Speaker 1: Swim Club board of directors. He was very well respected
29:29
Speaker 1: in the community. But then he loses his job again.
29:33
Speaker 1: His house becomes foreclosed. He got connected with a corporate
29:38
Speaker 1: head hunter who specialized in engineering and relocated to Texas.
29:43
Speaker 1: It was then in an entirely new environment. His children
29:47
Speaker 1: drop out of school. Abby goes to live with her grandmother.
29:51
Speaker 1: Hayden moves to Hawaii, to work at a resort, but
29:55
Speaker 1: pretty soon they all pared back up in Texas. They
29:59
Speaker 1: were then living in a middle class community outside Katie, Texas,
30:03
Speaker 1: a suburb of Houston, and they appeared to be everyday, harmless,
30:09
Speaker 1: regular people. And kat was holding out a very well
30:12
Speaker 1: paid job as an engineer, trying to figure this whole
30:16
Speaker 1: thing out. Abby worked at a mall, Hayden was trying
30:21
Speaker 1: to get established as a concierge in a hotel, and
30:24
Speaker 1: then suddenly they end up with guns in their hands.
30:39
Speaker 1: Crime stories with Nancy Grace. But the loop isn't exactly
30:44
Speaker 1: divide it up evenly according to the kids, what percentage
30:47
Speaker 1: were they willing to give you? Did you feel like
30:50
Speaker 1: ten percent was enough? Oh? Yeah, because I never even
30:53
Speaker 1: had that much money, so a whole life. Nine thousand
30:55
Speaker 1: dollars It was enough for me, enough to buy a
30:58
Speaker 1: very practical used forward focus and more of those manicures.
31:02
Speaker 1: I know the part that I played really wrong, but
31:05
Speaker 1: it was my family, and that the LOYALTYAMS was greater
31:09
Speaker 1: at that point, but her father and brother seemed more
31:12
Speaker 1: loyal to the cold hard cash that was coming in
31:15
Speaker 1: and to blowing it fast, shopping cars, partying, really nothing
31:20
Speaker 1: to show for it. When the comforts of daily life
31:23
Speaker 1: include Jack Daniel's new Chevy Tahoe Harley and a swank
31:27
Speaker 1: New Houston apartment. Even one hundred gees can disappear pretty fast,
31:32
Speaker 1: and for the Cat family that meant one thing. Time
31:35
Speaker 1: to go back to work. Had you planned another heist? Yeah?
31:38
Speaker 1: I think we're going to do probably one or two
31:40
Speaker 1: more that day. Yeah, welcome back, everybody. A dad, Scott
31:44
Speaker 1: Cat brings his own children into violent and armed bank robberies. I,
31:51
Speaker 1: Nancy Grace, this is crime Stories. Thanks for being with us,
31:54
Speaker 1: so Eka, now you're hearing my buddy over at twenty
31:57
Speaker 1: twenty that was Matt Gutman. And now to the point
32:00
Speaker 1: where they're doing multiple bank robberies a day. Yeah, this
32:04
Speaker 1: is at the point where Scott has really he's had
32:07
Speaker 1: success on his own as a bank robber. He's gotten
32:10
Speaker 1: away with it for years in Orgon, and now he
32:14
Speaker 1: thinks that he's so good at it he voluntarily decides
32:18
Speaker 1: to quit his job and become a full time bank robber.
32:22
Speaker 1: But he also decides that in order to make this
32:25
Speaker 1: a full time profession now he needs to recruit his
32:28
Speaker 1: two children, one of them who was still in high school.
32:30
Speaker 1: And how did he do it? How did he manage
32:32
Speaker 1: to recruit them and convince them to do this thing? Well,
32:35
Speaker 1: he started with his son, Hayden. He went to Hayden
32:38
Speaker 1: and he said, listen, I have something to tell you.
32:41
Speaker 1: I've been a bank robber for a long time and
32:43
Speaker 1: I've got I'm good at it, but now I kind
32:46
Speaker 1: of want to expand. And he convinced Hayden that this
32:50
Speaker 1: was an okay thing to do because he had a
32:53
Speaker 1: track record of getting away with it for so long.
32:56
Speaker 1: So Hayden, wanting to be loyal to his father, believes
33:00
Speaker 1: he knows what he's doing. Maybe I should just go
33:03
Speaker 1: along with this. And then instead of just talking to
33:06
Speaker 1: his own daughter himself, he sends his son, who's very
33:09
Speaker 1: close with his sister, to convince her. So he's already
33:13
Speaker 1: having the sun do the dirty work. I mean, this
33:15
Speaker 1: goes all the way back to around two thousand when
33:19
Speaker 1: Scott kat the father, drops the children off at school,
33:22
Speaker 1: then goes to a nearby bank wearing a ball cap,
33:24
Speaker 1: black sweats, a white painter's mask, and sunglasses. He threatens
33:29
Speaker 1: the tellers. He has an unloaded antique pistol and he
33:33
Speaker 1: walks away with nearly three thousand dollars. I guess that
33:36
Speaker 1: was a lot for that time. But then a few
33:39
Speaker 1: days later, police issue a granny surveillance photo of Kat.
33:42
Speaker 1: From the surveillance footage, then they say, I got a question,
33:47
Speaker 1: that says my mother says the man the photo looked
33:49
Speaker 1: like me, and I laughed. Kat said, oh, it was
33:52
Speaker 1: the grandmother. So when this came across the airwaves, the
33:57
Speaker 1: grandmother Scott Kat's mother said, wow, that guy kind of
34:01
Speaker 1: looks like you, and Kat just laughs and they all
34:04
Speaker 1: go out to dinner. He managed to get away with it.
34:07
Speaker 1: After the first heist, he was addicted. Listen to this.
34:12
Speaker 1: It was August two thousand and six when the masked
34:15
Speaker 1: man robbed the first Federal bank on Baker Creek Road.
34:18
Speaker 1: He didn't show a gun. A year later, this photo
34:22
Speaker 1: was snapped of a masked man robbing the Washington Mutual
34:25
Speaker 1: Bank on Highway ninety nine in Mcminville. Please say, it
34:28
Speaker 1: looks like he has a gun and he got away
34:30
Speaker 1: with a few thousand dollars. We don't know if the
34:33
Speaker 1: kids were involved in the local robberies. It was kind
34:36
Speaker 1: of surreal and didn't weren't believe it. Abbey's roommate paid
34:41
Speaker 1: her a visit in jail this weekend. If it were
34:43
Speaker 1: anybody else asking her to do that, she would never
34:46
Speaker 1: have done. I think out of loyalty. She felt like
34:49
Speaker 1: she ought to. Detectives believed the trio pulled off seven
34:52
Speaker 1: bank heists in two states while wearing different disguises. Federal
34:57
Speaker 1: courts records show that Ronald Scott Kat had declared bankruptcy
35:00
Speaker 1: twice in two thousand and three and two thousand and five,
35:04
Speaker 1: but those bankruptcies were dismissed. Okay, I got so many
35:07
Speaker 1: questions here to doctor Ryan Fuller. I need to shrink
35:10
Speaker 1: doctor Fuller. Two questions. One is about a spend a holic.
35:15
Speaker 1: You see on TV, the people that lay around on
35:17
Speaker 1: their sofa all day in order from like the shopping network,
35:21
Speaker 1: all those shopping networks, and it doesn't even seem real
35:25
Speaker 1: that they're buying stuff. And I actually have a friend
35:28
Speaker 1: who shall remain anonymous, who has closets full of stuff.
35:33
Speaker 1: She gets these good deals going on eBay of like sheets,
35:37
Speaker 1: sets and comforters and knickknacks. It's just stuffed. Every closet
35:42
Speaker 1: is stuffed with stuff that it's not even opened up.
35:46
Speaker 1: And she's so proud. Hey, I got this for whatever
35:49
Speaker 1: X amount of money. She's so proud. But I'm like,
35:52
Speaker 1: what are you going to do with all this stuff?
35:54
Speaker 1: So is there some kind of an addiction about spending?
35:57
Speaker 1: Is this guy's already declared bankruptcy twice? Doctor Fuller? Well?
36:00
Speaker 1: Spending on those kinds of things sometimes we call it
36:02
Speaker 1: retail therapy or alcoholic or these sort of process or
36:05
Speaker 1: behavioral addictions. We certainly do see people present that way
36:08
Speaker 1: in our center, and they do. They do that at
36:12
Speaker 1: many of the behaviors of other addicts, people who struggle
36:15
Speaker 1: with substances. They may not have physical withdrawals in the
36:19
Speaker 1: same way, but they do seem to get these, you know,
36:23
Speaker 1: huge bursts of excitement and get lit up when they're
36:25
Speaker 1: actually making purchases, even when money is low. But what
36:29
Speaker 1: you see afterwards the courses that is the dip. You
36:32
Speaker 1: know once again they're you know, sad, disappointed, board want
36:36
Speaker 1: more money of colorful yeah, and then they have to
36:39
Speaker 1: go back and do whatever they need to do to
36:42
Speaker 1: to get that hit hit again. You know, what about
36:43
Speaker 1: getting a job? You know. Vincent hill Cop turned pi
36:47
Speaker 1: author of playbook to a murder on Amazon Vincent another
36:50
Speaker 1: thing that is really fascinating me, and I'm not admiring it.
36:55
Speaker 1: It's more like looking at a snake underglass box that
36:57
Speaker 1: kind of fascination. This guy, Scott Kat had a complete
37:02
Speaker 1: double life. Everybody was convinced he was this awesome dad.
37:06
Speaker 1: He made a point of cooking dinner for his children
37:08
Speaker 1: every night, and there in mcminville he was thought of
37:12
Speaker 1: as a single dad who supported his children, took them
37:15
Speaker 1: on summer trips to amusement parks, president of the swim club.
37:19
Speaker 1: How many criminals actually have I say, a day job,
37:23
Speaker 1: in other words, a facade they were to everybody else
37:28
Speaker 1: except when they're committing crimes. Yeah, Nancy, it's more common
37:31
Speaker 1: than people think. And there's a second element to this
37:35
Speaker 1: double life. We heard talks of cocaine, and in the
37:38
Speaker 1: words of Rick James, cocaine's a hell of a drug.
37:41
Speaker 1: And there are a lot of people that are addicted
37:43
Speaker 1: to drugs that go out and do things to get
37:45
Speaker 1: those drugs that people have no clue was going on
37:48
Speaker 1: in that person's life. And I think Kat is a
37:50
Speaker 1: prime example of that, no doubt about it. And ultimately,
37:54
Speaker 1: of course, at all came crashing down police in Texas
37:57
Speaker 1: told us when the father, son, and daughter were arrested,
38:01
Speaker 1: the father admitted to five robberies in Oregon, but that
38:04
Speaker 1: was the extent of the information. Well, today, Mcmanville police
38:08
Speaker 1: tell me there is a strong possibility that they are
38:11
Speaker 1: the suspects in their two unsolved bank robberies. This all
38:15
Speaker 1: came to light when sheriff's deputy is near Houston, Texas,
38:17
Speaker 1: arrested Ronald Scott Kat and his children, Hayden and Abbey
38:21
Speaker 1: last week. Detectives say the father and son wore construction
38:25
Speaker 1: vests and had guns. Hayden wore a fake mustache, while
38:28
Speaker 1: Abby drove the getaway car back in Mcminville, where the
38:32
Speaker 1: family used to live and the kids had been honor
38:34
Speaker 1: students and competitive swimmers at Mcmanville High School. Police tell
38:38
Speaker 1: me they're looking at whether the father is the man
38:41
Speaker 1: in this photo. So Ellen Lauren, they all pled guilty.
38:46
Speaker 1: What was the sentence on Abbey. Abbey was given a
38:49
Speaker 1: sentence of five years, but she was released about halfway
38:54
Speaker 1: through that sentence on parole and she's now out and
38:56
Speaker 1: she's trying to put her life back together. What was
38:59
Speaker 1: Hayden sentence? Ten years? And he is still incarcerated. M
39:03
Speaker 1: And what about the dad's got cat twenty four years
39:07
Speaker 1: and he was aged fifty one when he was sent
39:09
Speaker 1: This very likely they will never be a family together
39:13
Speaker 1: around the dinner table again. Coincidentally, where the whole thing started.
39:18
Speaker 1: At breakfast, Scott Kat tells his family he has a
39:21
Speaker 1: second job as a bank robber, and the children say
39:24
Speaker 1: when they looked at his face, they knew he was
39:27
Speaker 1: not kidding. A life of crime and the payoff at
39:30
Speaker 1: the end. Nancy Grace Crime Story signing off Goodbye friend,