Latest / Mythmakers / Mythmakers Encore: Did Peter Jackson Get It Right? The Two Towers Movie Reconsidered

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Mythmakers Encore: Did Peter Jackson Get It Right? The Two Towers Movie Reconsidered · Mythmakers

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Hello and welcome to MythMakers. MythMakers is the podcast for fantasy fans and fantasy
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creatives brought to you by the Oxford Centre for Fantasy. My name is Julia Codding and
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I'm an author but also the director of the Centre. And for the second time I've been
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joined by Jacob Renica, who is a talking fan and also a language specialist amongst many
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other things. And we are taking a look at the Peter Jackson films 20 years on and thinking
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about the script choices and what might be what mistakes were made, what great choices
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were taken, and also where the scope might be for future script writers and new filmmakers
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and television programme makers to come along and do their own version. And today of course,
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as it's the second, we have reached the two towers. So Jacob first of all, is this one of your
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favourite of the films or you know, where in the lineup is it? We've already got three to line up.
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Where would you go? Yeah. I find my asking which of the Star Wars films you like,
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basically. I can find a question. Yeah it is. You know it, I would say it might be
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mainly favourite, but only because, but that's not there. I think they're all for me again
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that like I mentioned last time. I see them all is just kind of like one continual story,
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especially since they were shots kind of continuously. So in terms of the segments or chapters
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of the story, yeah it's I think I get more out of the characters in the world with the first
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and the third than I do in the second. So second is traditionally the most difficult to do well,
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right? The saggy middle, right? You have to get through. So at the beginning you have set up,
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you have your inciting incidents, you have all this new things that are happening, crises,
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and then you still have to get to your climax and resolution, but there's this big stretch in
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the middle that you have to do something engaging with from an audience perspective. And so it's I
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think I think it's I think it's good. It's very I think because of the battles there that sometimes
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seems a little long could be longer, but yeah it's I'd say yeah. So the least again that's a hard
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to judge. I mean struggling to criticize something we actually really like. I actually really
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enjoy watching how they cope with a really difficult thing, which is what to do with the middle
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section. I mean I get a lot of enjoyment from that. I agree with you. It's not I would probably
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rewatch the first and the third more frequently, but there are certainly plenty of perfect moments
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in the second. And so really great choices, which surprised me. I remember watching it for the
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first time, which I thought this is really good. So before we think about the the bigger structure,
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we're going to start with some smaller moments. First of all, let's think about the casting and
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the choices of language and that kind of thing in the second film. We we're talking a lot about how
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Frodo was cast young in fellowship. In this film, I think most of the casting is there's less
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challenging casting in this. It's all pretty pretty much on on on the same line as the book that we do
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have. I suppose this falls into this. We do have characters popping up where they are in the book
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like Halberrad sort of rocks up to with with the elves rocks up to Helm's deep. There are some
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choices like that, which mean that some characters are astray. So were you happy with the casting
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choices? The new the new people, of course, mainly the Rohan. It's Bernard Hill and Miranda. I've
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gone her surname. The wonderful actress. Otto. Oh, thank you. And Kurt's not Kurt.
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Kurt Bern is the Carl Erben. Yeah. I always said Kurt Cobain. That's someone completely different.
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But also a blonde longish hair. Yeah. And then of course, there's David. Oh, yeah, I should have
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got my pharameer. Win them. Which is known as, anyway, pharameer. Yeah. So what do you think about
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and almost forgot Werntung, another great character of Tolkien? Were you happy with the choices
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they made? I'm very happy with them all. I am also. I am also. I know it's funny that
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there's just a couple months ago. So I'm watching the X-Files television series, American television
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series. And the fellow who plays Werntung, I'm so sad that I forgot his name. He was in an episode
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of the first or second season of X-Files as a, you know, the creepiest, the most sinister
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possible kind of antagonist. And he did. It was, yeah. So it was a joy to watch him in another role.
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You got that? Brad Dorif. Thank you, Google. I knew I was going to get that completely wrong.
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Yeah. So Brad was, yeah, it's just an incredible choice for that level of, yeah, kind of
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getting the sinister, sneaky, sleazy, just dark, creepy, he's, yeah, some sort of creature of the
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night almost. I'm sure in real life, I would love to meet him in real life and just have a good
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chat with him. He's quite funny in the, in the making off because of course he had to shave off his
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eye, eyebrows each time. He made the part. Oh wow. Okay. His partner was getting quite cross
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because he, when he went for the pickups, he'd come back looking, you know, not a good look,
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guys, if you think of your eyebrows. Okay. So yeah, I think in that case, I don't think
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tonally there's much difference. I think all three films, they've maintained, it's not one of
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these scripts where they've had loads of writers coming in and it doesn't fit. It feels all part
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of an overarching trilogy. So, yeah. So what about the perfect moments for you? Do you have any
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of loads in there? Yeah. The one, I can say just, you know, one, one moment, the moment that somehow
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I want translated onto my tombstone is Eric Warren's return opening the hall doors at Helmsteep,
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right? When he walks in, he's, he's just, you know, drug himself through the water and the horse,
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you know, break-o took him up onto his back and then took him back. But then, you know, when he first,
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you know, enters the hall there of Helmsteep with that kind of slow motion, almost, you know,
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half slow motion, pushing open the doors and him just, you know, striding in there is every single time,
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it's just this like, I just get this like surge of, yeah, just like majesty and power and, you know,
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awe and not that I am any of those things, but just so if somebody's stopping by my graveside
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someday that they see that, they might get that, you know, just have a nice.
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I think I will suspect that you, you, you, you, you, you identify and root for Aragon quite, quite a lot.
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I think I can see this. I can understand.
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That whole episode of him falling off the edge and being dead and coming back again is,
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is another sort of birth death and resurrection kind of story. And it's not actually from the books,
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right? Right, right. It works. It works. I think, I think, I mean, I think, again, like, I saw,
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before I read the books, two towers was the film. So I saw the fellowship and then two towers and
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after two towers came out, that's what really it was the end of the two towers film that really
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gave me the final push to dive into the books themselves. And then my life became consumed by Tolkien
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after words forever after. But it was that. Yeah. So it was, it was compelling for me and got me
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into a place where I wanted to learn more about those characters. But yeah, it may be, yeah, Aragon.
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And with the, in talking about casting, just going back for a second, with Aragon there here
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and elsewhere, Vigil Mortensen bringing this a kind of softness. I want to say, you know, kind of
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almost like a feminine energy to this king, this powerful king. So he's this really this combination
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of, you know, power and strength, but also this softness and care and nurture as this, you know,
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king healer that you do see in the book. But I think he really kind of elevates that and brings out
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the kind of nurturing qualities of the king a little, a little more in his, in his performance
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there that that I love personally and kind of is essentially kind of my model for. I wish that
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I could be Aragon as a father to my children. They could see me as a, yeah. So good aspiration.
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For me, one of the perfect moments in terms of camera work and and evocation of place and everything
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is when you first see the golden hall, Medusaeld, and you've got air wind standing on that very windy
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ledge that she stands on, but it just seems a very almost like a perfect talking moment.
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There's the vistas, the scope, the sense of it actually having the air, you know, it's a wild place.
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Yeah, the, the other thing I really like as well, she's a slightly odd choice, maybe it's
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I love that they use the Anglo-Saxon dirge for when they bury me. They're
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I think this might only be an extended edition, I don't know. But anyway, that's lovely because
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of course they are the Anglo-Saxons in this world. Right.
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Of course, across between them and the the Hungarian riders of ancient history.
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And so there's lots of moments there thinking this thing, not forget the journey of Frodo and Sam.
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Are there any perfect moments for you on that? Because of course there is the
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introduction of Gollum. Yeah, yeah, you do have that. I think for me, the moments with Frodo and Sam,
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my favorite moment there in two towers is, you know, Sam's monologue when they're around Oskilia.
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You've got to the end here. Right, yeah, exactly. So I'm going to finish the end, but in terms of
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the moments overall, just like that where he's talking about, right, it's like in the great stories,
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the ones that really mattered and he's talking about the characters living inside a story versus,
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you know, seeing the story from the outside and what sort of difference that makes
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from a person's perspective and just like, yeah, so his delivery, Sean Essin's delivery of that is just so earnest and pure and
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inspiring every time I see it. Yeah, that's that's a moment. There's like really
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charges me and thinks it makes me think that right then the Andrea Frodo asks him so he says,
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you know, that there's there was something that was that they were holding on to in those stories and then Frodo says,
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you know, what were they holding on to? What are we holding on to, Sam? And he says that there's some good
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in this world, Mr. Frodo, and it's worth fighting for. Right, so every single time that just,
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you know, it is it is inspirational, kind of at its core. And yeah, that's for me, that's one of the things
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that one of the moments that in rewatching these films, there's the ones that I look forward to most and get
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the most out of are some of those character moments. And the funeral moment also that you moment that you
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mentioned, that was one of my other favorite moments is that entire burial scene and then the conversation
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afterward between, right, our two kings, if you will, and the reflection on, you know, burying
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your children is quite touching and moving. Yeah, just the Anglo-Saxon dirge, just kind of yeah evokes
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that. And I think, yeah, I think great performance. I've done a few there talking about that.
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It's a very simple and strip vaccine just between him and Gandalf, but I think it feels so genuine
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because of course, in the way the book works, The Dead Steads sort of happy. It moves quite swiftly
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on. And I think it was a really good decision to give a moment of grief. Yeah,
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because the book doesn't have that breathing space in it. So one more moment, of course, is I do
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think that when I watched it the first time, the Andy Circus first gets a frenic,
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it's visual, golem, that was just amazing when I first saw that. I mean, it's become so
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paraded that we almost forget how powerful that was. Well, really well written. I mean, it's all
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there in the talking, but the way it's chosen and put together and then performed, I think, is
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another extremely perfect moment. You know, one of the best scenes in the whole of the three films.
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Agreed. Okay, any less good moments? Yeah, so again, this is, I think, looking at a big picture
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and Tolkien's own theory of creating worlds, of myth making. So in his essay on fairy stories,
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he talks about the creation of secondary worlds and that your goal is to create a world that
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is internally consistent and that your mind can enter and where it relates to everything as being
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true within that world itself, right? So the moment, so he says, you know, the suspension of
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disbelief is one thing. He doesn't think that that's what fantasy does. Fantasy isn't just the
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suspension of disbelief, but rather the kind of invitation toward and fostering of an active
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belief in a secondary fantasy world. So he says the moment that disbelief arises, then the
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spells broken and then the magic or rather the art has failed, where it was his way of describing
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that. So for me, the moment, like the moment that that absolutely, I was taken out of this film
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as a true internally consistent world was a legalist kind of skateboarding down the stairs
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on the on the shield and shooting arrows. I think if I would have seen that as a earlier teenager,
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that that might have been my favorite scene in the film. It's kind of a different audience for
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that. It seemed right, right? So that seems, yeah. So I think so that kind of like tonally,
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it seemed a little bit off. I would expect, I think, given how the elves act, I didn't seem
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quite as dignified. I don't know what I was expecting him to do to kind of float down the stairs
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and shoot arrows instead. I don't know what the alternative is, but that was for whatever reasons.
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That was something that during that intense battle kind of like had took me out of that secondary
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world and said, oh, I'm watching a film, not I'm living inside this world. So for me, that's probably
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the biggest example of something that was a cool shot and like a fun idea, but ended up for me
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personally kind of taking me out of the film for a moment. Yeah. I would.
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Maxine does go a bit crazy about Legolas, doesn't he? Because I'd sort of put that along
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that moment, I agree, because of the skateboarding feel of that, it does feel like a stunt,
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whereas even more absurd, but in a sense, more earned is when he takes down the mumma kill,
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the only fault with the next film. That's the same sort of thing.
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That's the sort of, you can see him thinking, how do I get, how do I, how do I tackle this creature?
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And he methodically works his way, thinking, well, I've got to do this. And so it feels,
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I don't know, there's something a bit more within the world about that. Again, it's an elaborate,
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not in the book or anything, but that for me doesn't jar, even though it's ridiculous.
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In the hobby, a picture action goes completely crazy when he's doing antifysics thing,
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where he's climbing up falling rocks in the last, in the battle of that, which really is just
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and hanging off bats, completely, completely silly, basically. So, you know, I would put that
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sequence at one end, the mumma kill at the other end, and the, the shield thing.
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Okay. It works. I could see somebody actually doing that, yes, but I could see like me and my
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friends trying to do it. And I'm sure there's probably, you know, you know, hospitals emergency rooms
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have witnessed how many children have tried reenacting that down their own stairs.
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No, you're going to go to your own if you say, I know, yes, I have to be careful on which scenes
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are just skip past that. But it's, so it was, it was but like so, it would seem more contemporary
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than something that fit into that world. I mean, if we'd seen something like that happen before,
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there was a real reason like he had to get down and we saw him taking the shield and it was,
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if it seemed kind of like an inevitable choice, that he had to get down and the only way he could
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do that was with this. If it was set up differently, then I could see it seeming more natural.
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I think I can see a world or a way of shooting that in which he has to do this. And so I'm okay with
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it within the world itself, but as it shot and as it came across to me, it seemed kind of gimmicky.
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savings will vary. Okay, right. So moving on from that, again, everybody, we're doing this
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about something we love. It's not that it's a tiny moment, which we're quibbling, not the whole
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arc of the film or anything. Let's think about the way it's structured from beginning to end.
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I think I want to particularly mention how it starts. So if you can cast your mind back to 2000
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one, I think it was when it came out, was it 2001 somewhere around there.
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I think that choosing to start with rerunning the Balrog scene, but flipping it to Gandalf's
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perspective was genius. No unexpected, but also a sort of sort of doing a reprise. This is
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the important moment. This is the moment that's haunted Frodo. It was a very clever. So I loved
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that. It's one of my favorite openings, actually. It is my favorite opening of all the three films.
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It's the one that I think is the best bit of filmmaking. Yeah, yeah, agreed. And so the cinematography
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during that section, right? So you're hearing the noises of the battle as you're getting this big
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panoramic sweeping shot of these snow-covered mountains. You're being set up with a sense,
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the scope of this film and what's happening. You're immediately stepping into this wide world.
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And then you're hearing the conflict. So it's giving you a chance to ramp up to remember it.
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You're almost being primed to remember it. And then you actually get in there,
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zooming in, closing in, and then getting inside the mountain. And looking at that, yeah,
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it's beautiful. It's a very powerful way to start the film with doing a small recap,
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like you said, to get what's the minimum amount that you have to do to get people up to speed
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to get into the film. And I think that was a brilliant decision and way of doing that.
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It was very effective, I thought. So in terms of the structure, they have the problem
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that Frodo and Sam's journey is quite unrelentingly miserable. There's a brief, brief spell with
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pharameer in the books where things look up for a little bit. But it is lots of rocky or ashy or
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swampy landscapes, muted tones, lots of suffering, and either three actors or two. So very intent.
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So they've got two films, one and a half more films to do this. And I think it's really tough.
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It's tough in the books. I mean, I love those bits because I always think that the real
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adventure is the mental struggle, the journey that's going on and the way that their relationship
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changes and shifts. So I find it fascinating. But I know that my own children, for example,
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they much prefer the pipin and merry and the colourful fighting, the other stories.
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But of course, those stories are actually just settings to allow Frodo and Sam to
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inch slowly to their destination. It does present a problem because how do you make Frodo and Sam
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as interesting as people aren't skipping? How do you do that? And did they succeed?
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Yeah, I think so. Yeah, I think visually you're right that you definitely are distinctively seeing
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different environments there. And yeah, so of course, the introduction of Gollum there is really,
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I think what helps you keep those two worlds separate and engaging and entertaining.
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The tensions that are created there that are, you know, that are kind of slightly different than
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the books in terms of kind of your triangular relationship between Gollum, Frodo and Sam.
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Because Gollum. I think the two hours actually keeps closer to the book. We haven't got to
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attend the King. It diverges a lot there. But there is already tension in the books between
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Frodo having empathy for Gollum. Gollum. And I think from this, and I think, yeah,
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maybe to clarify what I think in the films, I had greater empathy for Gollum in the films and how
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they set Gollum up. And I think in part is the character design, right? So he's, you know,
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he looks sad and sorry and he has giant eyes. Right. So, right. And in the, in Andy circuses,
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incredible performance of Gollum. And then you see, and again, like you're saying with the dialogue,
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or it's, I don't know what you call a monologue with yourself where you're actually two distinct
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personalities, a monodialogue, internal dialogue. But he's, you know, that going back and forth,
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the seeing Gollum. And in Elijah Woods, Frodo, you just like being able to tell by looking at him
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his pity for Gollum. I think I picked up on that more so in the films. It was easier for me to
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see visually. And I got a greater feel for that than in the books, how it's described. Yeah,
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I felt like it came across more and again, I think perhaps that might just because film is a visual
25:34
medium, and it's easier for me to respond and react to something that I'm seeing that looks like
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me actually visually in front of my eyes. So, but yeah, I think I absolutely agree with you that,
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that Gollum talking to himself, Andy Serkis' performance just really elevated that character
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of Gollum. And I think that's what is interesting. I think helps carry the Sam and Frodo
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parts more as that element. I mean, the other thing to mention, of course, is that the books
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do the first half, book three in Tolkien's count, which is the first half of the two towers,
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is all the other characters in book four is Frodo and Sam. And so what they've done is they've
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chopped it all up and then put it back in more or less sequential order, though I think perhaps.
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The point, they finish a little bit early, just because the way Tolkien's written it,
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the point at which the two, I'm going a bit on, going on too long, but basically they've changed
26:37
the timings so that the stories run together on the same timeline, whereas Tolkien sort of did,
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here's a bit of this story, here's a bit of that story. And I think that helps by putting it one
26:50
after the other, because you are then having the thing where you've got one kind of tone and palette
26:56
and color, and then you swap back to that. And then you never forget Frodo and Sam. So that was a
27:02
good choice. Yeah, agreed. Okay, so we've got some new characters to, well, cultures really
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to mention. We thought you started talking about Rohan, were you happy with the way that was
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realised? In particular, I think looking at the big three when Emma and Theoden, the way they
27:26
were characterised, there were some interesting, your discussion about magic in our previous
27:33
broadcast, the way they explained the third in possession, I think it was an interesting change.
27:40
Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely, you know, agreed. And that was, you know, one of those other visual
27:46
elements that took me out momentarily was, you know, theodins kind of transformation from this,
27:52
hori, white bearded, almost like, father-time grumpy, father-time figure to then, you know, his beard
28:01
kind of shortens magically and, you know, hair color changes. But yeah, I think
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there are the depictions of them, they all give powerful performances. Yeah, Ayrmere, right,
28:18
in his, you know, sadness and the tragedy of him kind of being exiled in a sense there was really,
28:28
really effective, effective for me, and then Ayrmere, which she's struggling with there.
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The slight change in Ayrmere, in regards to her relationship with Ayrmere, Goran,
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something we'll probably talk more about is kind of the a little shift in what the emphasis is
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that the screenwriters chose to kind of highlight and elaborate on maybe a little more.
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That was something that from the film, again, just reading or not reading the books until after I'd
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seen the two towers, it seemed consistent and made sense. But now, yeah, going and looking at the
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the source material and being more familiar with that, then you do lose something in, you know,
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in emphasizing the particular aspect of Ayrmere, namely her kind of whole-hearted
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obsessions or devotion to Ayrmere, Goran is. You lose a little bit more of this, you know,
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incredibly powerful kind of independent spirit that wins arguments and is a force to be reckoned
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with in her own right. I think you lose a bit of that sense by kind of tying her sense of self
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to Ayrmere Goran so much in the film. She does fall for him, she falls for what he represents,
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but I think that they try to give her a bit more air time by putting in some extra scenes,
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and there's a moment where she's complaining in Helm Steak, for example, which I think is an
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addition because she wasn't there. So, yeah, I know what you mean. I think she feels,
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yeah, she feels less beautiful in a way. I mean, she, yeah, I think, but I don't mind it. I
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think they're looking for areas to expand her character, aren't they? And it also goes to your
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point that you made in the last podcast about when there is an opportunity to conflate two characters
30:42
to one job, then do so. So, the situation where Ayrmere is sent away, that doesn't happen,
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he's not the one who sent away, he's at Helm Steak, and it's actually Halberad who,
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not Halberad, Erkenbrand. Sorry, I'm getting the names right. Who comes, and you're probably thinking
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who, who on earth is he? He's another, the world to talking is bigger, there are people you never
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meet in the films who appear there. So, that was all a good choice to give that story to Ayrmere.
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Though he does come across as being a little bit churlish at times. But I think that's fine,
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that's an interpretation. What's about, so yeah, we're mainly thumbs up for Rohan.
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I think Burnett Hill makes a crack in the extended edition. I think it's him about how his
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armour is so much better than everybody else's. But they do look quite poor and impoverished,
31:41
but I suppose an Anglo-Saxon village would have been like that, maybe. Your king would have had all
31:46
the the gold leaf. What about the ants? It's treating your tree beard. Yeah, that's a good,
31:54
that's a good question. Again, so it was, you know, it took me a while to place the voice,
31:58
right John Reese Davies does the voice of tree beard as well. So, hearing that, I was like, I know,
32:04
that was one thing was somewhat distracting, because I know I've heard this voice before,
32:06
I know I've heard this voice before, and then again, going back to my being raised half on
32:12
Star Wars, half on Indiana Jones was, yeah, sharing John Reese Davies voice, then placing that,
32:19
which he has a great voice for it. Yeah, the character design, I really like the character,
32:25
the character design, especially like when you have your ant moot, right, where you have all
32:31
of the different ants gathering together, visually depicting different types of trees, you know,
32:37
kind of almost have like one emissary from a different type of tree, different species of tree
32:43
together. So, I really liked what they did there. In terms of his attitude, demeanor, I think,
32:51
you know, as I mentioned in the last podcast, Tolkien's way of writing about nature is, you know,
33:01
transcendental in his sense, right? So, his descriptions of the forests and tree beard,
33:11
his kind of depiction embodiment of trees, you can tell this is a man who loved trees,
33:16
that Tolkien loved trees, right? And so, it's just a joy to see him give a tree a chance to speak.
33:22
And so, and with that, there's this sense of, right, this wisdom and knowledge that comes from
33:30
a long life and living life slowly, which is more kind of aligned on the Hobbit end of things,
33:36
right? Hobbits live their lives slowly, right? So, they're kind of closer to trees and how they
33:42
experience the world. It seems, in a sense, than the world of men and elves. Well, elves have,
33:49
you know, again, this is possibly a long lifespan, but especially with men that they're the kind of
33:54
like action oriented and they have this kind of small scope of vision and what's happening and
34:00
what they're concerned with, whereas the elves have this kind of long institutional history that
34:04
they've lived through. So, I didn't get that sense of wisdom from freebeard in the film,
34:11
is what all that is to say, is that I think, yeah, that that was one of the biggest differences I saw
34:16
was the, that he's almost, because of how slow he is, he seems slow in every sense of the word,
34:25
mentally and physically. Yeah, that's a change, which I think isn't for the best,
34:29
which is, in the book, Treebeard has already pretty much decided that they need to do something,
34:35
but how that would run in a film is Treebeard takes them to a meeting, they wait outside
34:41
for a long time and then they decide to go and do something about it. So, they've added in the
34:45
jeopardy of them deciding not to act, right? And it takes Mary and Pippin to
34:54
challenge them and then to bring them to confront them with the damage that Sarah Mann's been doing.
35:03
That's a change and it means that Treebeard is less, you know, Treebeard knows, he knows, he knows
35:11
what needs to be done and he's talked to Gandalf, so the decision is pretty much from his point of
35:18
you taking. So, he's not the book Treebeard, he's a perfectly decent film Treebeard, but I say,
35:26
if you're thinking, you're listening to this and you've only seen the films, I would definitely
35:30
have a look at how the ends behave in the book. It's very interesting in the differences,
35:35
it's a great extra end who you meet, the young one, quick beam. And, you know, what I do like is
35:43
the way they all storm eyes and guard. I thought, how are they going to do this? It's just like
35:53
an impossible thing to realise, but I think that was very well realised with all the set pieces
35:59
of breaking the dam and how would a tree take on a building? You know, I think they did a smashing
36:10
job on that, very good. Okay, sort of the final piece I want to look at in Two Towers is Faramir,
36:18
and the little trip to Ozagiriya, that doesn't happen in the books, folks. What happens in the books
36:25
is Frodo and Sam are taken to the cave where the waterfall is and that's where the confrontation
36:37
where Faramir happens and Faramir is much much nicer in the book than he is in the film. I have
36:44
a couple of problems in the film, he is shown as condoning beating up Gollum and he's also drags them
36:54
off to Gondor, he wants to take the ring. Now in the book the point is Faramir doesn't, he refuses,
37:04
you know, they've changed that journey and that's a really big change. It's done, script purposes
37:11
to again add a bit of drama intention, they need an antagonist at this point, so okay, here's
37:17
Faramir, he's not much of a story, if he's just a nice guy who helps them on the way, they have to
37:23
give him a bit of edge, but it means that he's wrenched out of his, it's not consistent with the
37:28
Faramir, you then meet again because they've done this to him. So I have a problem with that,
37:35
in that I think it's really unfair to Faramir that he has this sort of pro torture little moment
37:42
in his life. Right, yeah, not agreed and I think that's your right that that's for screenwriting
37:48
purposes, the changes in Faramir do help create kind of this triangle between Denathor
37:57
Boramir and Faramir, right, so you have that kind of triad where Denathor is kind of pitting Boramir
38:03
against Faramir, so it heightens the tension and drama there, but you also have in at the same time
38:12
trying to give Faramir a character arc, right, so that's another thing with all of these different
38:16
characters, they feel like they have to have an arc with Aragorn, we talked about it a little bit
38:20
last time, you know, he's kind of this unassuming king, as we've actually seen the first film that he,
38:26
you know, Elrond says that he's turned away from that path, right, the path of kingship and that he's
38:33
is hesitant or if not, you know, waffling on whether or not to actually be king if that's something,
38:38
you know, it says, he notices his right, but is that something that he wants to do that he should do,
38:44
I think they do that, you definitely see that more in the films than in the books,
38:48
and part of that is to create a character arc for him, right, you need a character arc for every
38:52
one of these main characters, they have to be, and you have to make it the largest arc possible
38:57
to make it as compelling for audiences to follow, right, so Faramir, if you just have him as,
39:02
you know, this kind of Aragorn of virtue and loyalty and justice, then you don't get as much an
39:11
arc for him as a character, you get him as kind of a static character, which isn't as engaging,
39:15
and so if you want him to have more screen time, he has to be making some sort of change across
39:20
scenes, and so here, yeah, I think I think that's part of the purpose, so there's definitely a
39:25
different feel for the character in the book as opposed to the film, and sometimes where I think you
39:30
understand a bit more in villainizing Denathor, right, so Denathor instead of coming across
39:36
in the books as just kind of a resigned kind of cold leader who does what's necessary,
39:45
recognizes that he has to face a loss, and then it's kind of managing that loss as opposed to
39:52
kind of an actively evil, obviously almost a villainous kind of bent here in the films,
40:00
in doing that, that character kind of almost elicits that it seems from Faramir,
40:10
that the Faramir, if he has to live up to this particular version of his father,
40:15
yeah, there's a good issue with the original time they take Osgilias with Boromir doing a speech,
40:23
and then the brothers together, and then the father comes along, it's a very good extra scene,
40:28
sort of establishing that trio, I like that very much, that scene. I just wish they hadn't
40:34
done the beating up of Gollum, and that plays differently now too, as well. So then looking at that
40:41
20 years later with the Disguised Public Discussions about torture, right, military torture,
40:46
and its place, or not, or the ethics of that interrogation, so that definitely reads differently
40:55
now than it did, and it read and it read shocking and wrong, I think at the time, but even more so now,
41:04
as the world and the conversations that we're having today have changed in our emphasis,
41:10
I think seeing that scene, yeah, it's definitely, you're seeing that as an analog almost for
41:16
police brutality that exists, right, and as a serious problem, and so that doesn't certainly,
41:22
the extra, the sort of conversations that we're having in terms of what's happening in the world
41:26
today, it's impossible to divorce that from our experience watching these films, and so now,
41:30
it's not anything wrong at that point, I mean, yeah, something's wrong in the past, but as far as
41:36
Farmer knows, he's just being roughed up because he looks a bit, okay. Yeah, because of how he looks
41:44
exactly, exactly, right, or where he is, he's visited that pool, right, that he said that they
41:48
established in the film that this is this pool that, you know, the consequence is dead. Oh yeah,
41:55
that's right, yeah, yeah, that's right, yeah, sorry. So there is, so you do have at least some
41:59
justification, you know, you know, you're set up in the film of, this is an important, they
42:02
don't just describe why, right, some sort of sacred pool, and that if you enter and take something
42:07
out of it, right, that if you're, if you're there, then, people, they're, um, HQ secret.
42:12
Right, okay, yeah, yeah, so, I think, so it's right, I think, right, right, so there's, yeah,
42:19
so that's what, I think, so that, that, that's what provides at least their, the justification,
42:24
for the, I think, for the characters, but from the audience, I think, yeah, it's hard,
42:28
it's hard to buy in or be sympathetic toward him standing there, watching this poor little
42:34
frail creature with huge eyes get pummeled. Yeah, so there we go, um, this is the, the scene,
42:41
future script writers that it'd be great if you could read, if you're going to give Farmer a
42:46
character up, what would you do? What, what, what, what was your, you know, decide a different one
42:50
and haven't got that because we think this one is a bit of a not quite, not quite hit the target
42:56
there. Right, so, um, again, there was so much to talk about in all these films, which is a lot
43:02
of the pleasure of them, but we've come towards the end of the two towers and we're going to leave
43:09
on the cliffhanger as the film does and not knowing how it's all going to end. So we always have a sort
43:16
of little moment where we think wherein all the fantasy world is the best place for something,
43:21
and we've talked about treebeard. So Jacob, if you were tree, a sentient tree,
43:28
grant the world, would you like to find yourself in? Yeah, well, and I have to, you know,
43:34
bracket middle earth for that. So this is outside of middle earth, just because I would be,
43:40
I would absolutely be there in the middle earth as talking himself to
43:46
scribes it, but outside of that, I think it's not, so it's somewhat fantasy,
43:54
or it's kind of a borderline fantasy with magical realism. Have you read a monster calls?
44:01
by Patrick Ness? Yeah, based on one doubt concept. Exactly. Yeah, yeah. So, the tree there are kind
44:11
of the monster, the titular monster in a monster calls that you tree, that landscape and what
44:19
he does, and for those of you who haven't read, I highly recommend it, and especially the original
44:25
illustrated version, illustrated by Jim K, has some gorgeous illustrations that really add to
44:30
this. It's essentially a story about the power of stories to help us understand our lives and
44:38
to cope with tragedy and loss. So, deeply moving story, but it's facilitated by this
44:46
utri who tells a series of stories to this child who's coming to terms with his mother's terminal
44:54
cancer. And so just how, and I loved the book, and then the film, I don't know if you've seen the
45:00
film adaptation of monster calls, it's well worth seeing, it's written by Patrick Ness, he does the
45:06
screenplay, and there's some elements that he adds that kind of amplify the story from the book,
45:12
that he adds to the screenplay. So, this is a really interesting example of a book that's great
45:17
in an adaptation that is at least as good as the book, in part because the author of the book
45:23
is also the author of the screenplay, but the way that this character is depicted Liam Neeson
45:28
voices the tree. So, you have, I don't know if it's kind of secondhand Aslan vibes that kind of
45:36
are coming through from visual depictions of animated characters, but Liam Neeson's depiction of
45:42
this tree and this wisdom that this tree has in being kind of harsh, but also loving, right,
45:49
kind of being firm and a world where trees can interact with little boys and help them through
45:55
difficult times, I think that's something that is compelling to me again, perhaps, because I have
46:01
a little boy of my own that I would hope I could be a wise tree and, in part, you know, share
46:07
stories to help him get through hard times that he will inevitably and unfortunately experience
46:13
in his life. How about you? Well, I first of all thought a little bit about Avatar, the world of
46:20
Avatar, but I actually, it's not one I love, so my thoughts went back to what I read as a child,
46:30
and I don't often think about Enoch Blighten anymore because she's fallen out of favour or whatever,
46:35
I don't know, but I loved, as a child, the magic faraway tree stories. Now, I don't know what they'd
46:43
be like to read now, but what I remember, this is the different string, they could be, I have no idea,
46:52
but what I remember is there's this massive tree with lots of people living in it, lots of little
46:57
little creatures living in it, but the best thing about it all is at the top a different world
47:04
touches the top of the tree and it moves on, so the children can climb up the tree and have
47:09
an adventure, but they have to leave before the world moves on, or they get stuck, that's a bit
47:14
jeopardy there, and I love the idea of this, I suppose it probably in the background there's the
47:19
the tree of the world and all those sort of mythic trees is influencing that, but I'm
47:24
memorifying that a very powerful tree, as I was, I think I won't go back and read it again because
47:30
I want to keep the fact that it was so amazing still in my mind, I don't want to sort of challenge
47:37
that, so the magic far away tree, I'd like to be that, thank you so much Jacob and I look forward
47:42
to talking to you about to return of the king, so we want to thank you so much for having me, thank you
47:54
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