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Managing stress and avoiding burnout · Project Podcast

0:14
Welcome to the APM podcast. APM is the chartered body for
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the project profession. My name is Emma DaVita and I'm
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the editor of Project, APM's quarterly journal and your host.
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In this podcast, we're taking on the subject of stress, how to
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enjoy it, how to manage it, and how to deal with too much of it
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in the right way. We'll also be giving advice to
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the project leaders among you about how to manage stress
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levels within your teams. I'm very pleased to welcome my
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guests today Clara Chung, lead author on the APM Report The
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Well-being of Project Professionals and Reader in
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Engineering Management at the University of Manchester,
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Veronica Sicombe, a project manager at Mott McDonald who's
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currently based in Saudi Arabia, and Rochelle Sampson Clark, a
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business intelligence project manager for NHS South Central
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and West Commissioning Support Unit.
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Veronica and Rochelle are the members of APM's Women in
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Project Management Interest Network and are active in its
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well-being subgroups. So welcome everyone.
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Managing stress, maintaining work life balance, and at the
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more extreme end, avoiding burnout is a modern
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preoccupation. The 2025 APM Salary and Market
1:23
Trend Survey showed, for example, just how important
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flexible working is to project professionals in their desire to
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maintain some kind of work life balance.
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Yet let's not forget that the right level of stress can be
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enjoyable and motivating for many of you working in project
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management. So I would like to invite you
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car as leadles from the report on well-being for APM.
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I'd like to invite you to tell us what the most important
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things you discovered during research and what has changed,
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do you think, in within work since that was published?
1:59
Yeah. Thanks, Emma.
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Actually, when we carry out the APM study a few years ago, one
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of the biggest discoveries was just how much project
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professionals were struggling compared to the general
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workforce. They're less resilient, more at
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risk at the psychological strain and under string very great
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pressure on unrealistic workload, poor communication and
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very difficult work condition as well.
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This was like important evidence based because at the time,
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well-being in project management was still, I would say, an
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emerging topic. Many people thought it's just a
2:33
nice to have rather than something fundamental to project
2:37
delivery. But since then, I think
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awareness grow, particularly the pandemic, the shift of the
2:44
hybrid work, flexible working and more recently digitalization
2:48
using more AI have been made well-being impossible to be
2:53
ignored. But new risks have also been
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emerged because like very blurred boundary of digital
2:59
overloading. And then also new opportunity
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come such as as I said, flexible work patterns.
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But what hasn't been changed enough, I would say, is
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well-being is still too often treated as an individual
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responsibility rather than a systematic 1.
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So my argument is that it needs to be reframed as a strategic
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enabler of project success, every bit as important as time,
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cost and quality, but not just like nice to have to be.
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It's really important points there and something you talked
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about, the systemic level of stress.
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I think all too often individuals feel as though if
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they're struggling with their workload or the stress, they
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feel it's because they're failing somehow that they're not
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approaching it well. When actually I think this is
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most of the responsibility should be on the organisation or
3:51
the OR the individual manager or leader to make sure that they
3:57
are giving a sensible workload or to give support to people in
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in in managing them. Is that something that really
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came out from the report? Yes, that's the strongest
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message actually from from the the report because the data
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actually show the main sources of stress were systematic.
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So things like unrealistic deadline that you already talked
4:19
about briefly, lack of resources, inadequate training
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or poor communication, these sites think it's not issue for
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individual that could simply solve by being resilience or
4:30
work harder. They are symptoms of how
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projects are designed and deliver.
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So that's why we argue actually in the report for the
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intervention to improve the well-being level that should be
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at 2 levels. So at the organisational level
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the responsibility is to decide healthier system.
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So for example, I plan realistically, allocate
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resources properly, create supportive leadership, make
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well-being as the part of management and culture.
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And at the individual level, of course, coping strategies like
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time and energy and management are valuable, but they should be
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the last line of defence I would say, not just not the first one.
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So we found the structural change at organisational level,
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organisations basically risking placing the entire burden on the
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individual. It's both unfair, I think it's
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also unsustainable. Is there a certain type of
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person who's drawn to project management, someone who actually
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enjoys the adrenaline of a deadline, like a certain amount
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of stress, the challenge of it, it can you.
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Was there anything you noticed in your research that that you
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could characterise this kind of broad community of people by?
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Do they love a bit of stress? I will say on this report, but
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just based on my personal experience, OK, because I also
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work in industry for 10 years before I become an academic,
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even I become an academics, I'm still teaching project
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management. I think yes, there's typical,
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there's certain types of people really enjoys being a project
6:01
professional. First of all, people who like
6:03
change, people who think of challenges, yes, we have that.
6:08
I think that kind of people tend to get into this career path
6:13
easier. But still we need to carefully
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manage this. Although we enjoy being
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challenged but doesn't mean we can chronically being challenged
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and without boundaries. Veronica, could you tell us a
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bit about your role and the kinds of stress you're under and
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how much do you enjoy being a little bit stressed or?
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Right. So Emma, I'm a multidisciplinary
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project manager and I'm currently based in Riyadh, Saudi
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Arabia. So my role is a blend of
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planning, coordination of multidisciplinary design teams,
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managing schedules, budgets and managing stakeholders who
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generally don't want to be managed.
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So you can imagine there's a lot of stress that's associated with
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working with humans and the deadlines that are associated
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with project management. So that obviously requires
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flexibility and structure at the same time, which can be quite
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challenging most times, but you enjoy it.
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So in terms of stresses that I face, I'd say trying to get up
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to speed with project requirements as the project is
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progressing. As you know, construction is a
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very fast-paced industry. No project is pausing for you to
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get up to feed with everything. So you have to do that
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consistently as the project develops.
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And then there's also the stresses that's associated with
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the stakeholder management. Stakeholders generally don't
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want to be managed. They've got their own
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requirements, they've got their own deadlines and they have
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their own expectations. So that that can cause a lot of
7:52
stress on my side. But having said that, I do enjoy
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the stress that comes with it. It is counterbalanced by the by
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achieving these deliverables, for example, and deadlines and
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you know, getting those wins, small wins do do make me happy.
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How? How long have you been working
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with him? Project management.
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So I started off as an architectural design
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technologist. I've been in the eight years now
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in construction, but I've been doing outright project
8:23
management for four years. What have you learned about how
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to manage stress for you as you become more confident in your
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ability to work, which you kind of is, I guess as natural as you
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climb a career lad and you gain more experience.
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But is there any kind of one thing that stands out in terms
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of how you think about stress and and your workload that you
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perhaps wish you told a younger version of yourself or people
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who are kind of early on in their career?
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It's knowing that stress is inevitable.
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Whatever you do, you know, that's one thing that keeps me
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going. It's inevitable.
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The the key is managing that stress.
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So I've come to have some sort of boundaries to to know when to
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say actually I need support from my team to deliver the whatever
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the project, whether it's the fee earning project or a big
9:14
project, whatever it will be. So it's knowing my boundaries
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and knowing when, when to shout out for help, for example, and
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not just keeping internally and trying to to thrive without the
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support because that can be detrimental.
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Absolutely. I'm Keir Saski, is now your
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working not in the UK, you're in Saudi Arabia.
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So I guess throughout your career you've faced new
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stresses, so there's a new stress of working within a new
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culture. And how has that been for you?
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Has that presented a whole new level of challenge that you
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haven't had previously? Absolutely so so I was with Matt
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McDonald and in in the UK decided to relocate to to Saudi
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Arabia when I first joined the company in Saudi Arabia,
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everything, even the smallest of task would be quite stressful.
10:04
This is this was all dependent on what was going on outside of
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my actual work. So it's the the, the stresses
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associated with relocating. So trying to settle in, trying
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to find a home, you know, just trying to navigate the, the
10:18
culture, the working culture and just the general culture here in
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Saudi Arabia. So, but year on, I'm more
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settled now, even if the project is challenging, it's not as
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stressful because I, I'm now settled in.
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So the point I'm trying to make is external factors do play a
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big role in, in the stress or you know, the, the project
10:42
stress that you face. Michelle, tell us a bit about
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your role and the kinds of thing complexities that you have to
10:51
manage and and the workload you have, the various stresses you
10:55
face in your role every day. Yeah.
10:58
So I manage digital and data analytics projects within the
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NHS. So I think everyone is aware of
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the challenges within the NHS, the usual, the tight budgets,
11:07
the tight deadlines, those kind of things.
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And I think in most projects, as been mentioned before, the the
11:13
stakeholder management elements, those varying requirements, the
11:17
push and the pull of stakeholders in different
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directions and things, which is something as project
11:22
professionals is really important to try and master, not
11:25
just for our for our projects, but also for our lives
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personally, how we manage the conflicts in those different
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situations at work and at home. So yeah, I think those are
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probably the primary and also things like uncertainty change.
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So you did mention that we love change as project managers.
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I think to a certain degree that things like uncertainty,
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organisational change, changes in leadership structure, those
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kind of things are challenging. And at the moment we're kind of
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facing that in the NHS and other organisations are probably
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facing the same thing. So those are sort of the main
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stresses that I'm facing at the moment.
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But I think that I was drawn to project management because I've
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always really enjoyed being in control and the stress, well, a
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healthy level of stress of managing multiple projects,
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managing things in my life, and just being in control of that.
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And I think quite a lot of project managers are drawn to it
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because of that type of lifestyle that they live.
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Because I'm, I moved into project management later on
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because I realise it's something that's quite suited to my
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personality. So yeah, I think that I enjoy
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stress, but I've had a lot of learning and I've adapted from
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where I was when I first started out and, and, and the challenges
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that I've had in managing stress.
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I've definitely adapted my style, but it has been difficult
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to sort of let go of that. I need to be in control and I
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can manage all this myself. I'd like to invite all of you to
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ask how generally how stressful you think project management is
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to working as a profession and how that does depend on where
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you are in your career. So Veronica, you've ready talks
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a little bit about like when you're starting out in your
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career. But would you all agree that
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that that perhaps when you're early on in your career that
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that's the key? That's when you're first exposed
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to a lot of stress, I imagine, and you're maybe foundering
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around as to what the expectations are that you can't
13:32
say no to your boss. But then equally at mid
13:34
management and senior levels, there might be different types
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of stresses you face. So I don't know who wants to
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who'd, who'd like to tell a bit of, you know, well, I think
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that. I think that stress, it really
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varies. So you will have stress in all
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any way you work. I don't particularly think that
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project management is more stressful because for example,
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you could have great budgets, you could have realistic time
14:01
scales, a great team of people that you work with, your
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stakeholders and your project team.
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But what we have is we have those identified risks that
14:09
could come into fruition throughout our projects.
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And it's those and the new issues that arise, which can
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then cause a project that was going really, really well and
14:19
low stress, everything flowing nicely to then become quite
14:22
stressful. So it it's that uncertainty, the
14:25
risks and then the issues in our projects that probably might
14:30
throw us over the edge. But I would definitely say that,
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you know, all industries are going to have different levels
14:36
of stress. But I think because we do work
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in such a multidisciplinary way with different teams and, and
14:43
large groups and, and these restraints that it can be quite
14:47
stressful. But also what your point about
14:51
depending on, on where you are at in your career?
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I definitely remember when I started, I wanted to prove
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myself and I wasn't, and I wasn't a young, I didn't start
15:00
young in the profession. So I was actually quite
15:03
headstrong. And you know, I had a lot of
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life experience, a lot of job work experience and stuff like
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that. So and a family and a child.
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So I was a mother at that time, which is the the difference.
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I think if you're starting early career and you want to really
15:19
make your mark, you're a yes person.
15:21
You don't want to be seen as oh, I'm not able to do this.
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I can't show any weakness by saying no to a task.
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I don't have any authority at that stage in my career.
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And if I say no, then people think I'm possibly incompetent.
15:37
So I think there is that challenge in early careers, but
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it does depend on when you start your career, when you say early
15:44
careers in project management. Absolutely, but that obviously
15:49
just picking up on what you said, Rochelle, that can be very
15:52
detrimental being a yes person. It's now you do have to prove
15:57
yourself. Absolutely.
15:58
You have to show people your capabilities, but you have to
16:01
take a step back and reflect and and and take note that, you
16:05
know, stress can lead to burnout.
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So just picking up on on the fact that yes, it does stress
16:10
does differ depending on where you are in your career, but it
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also depends on the individual's character.
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So what might be stressful to me might be energising to you for
16:22
you, Rochelle. And I think that's where we need
16:25
to make sure we're not having a unified measure of stress for
16:29
all project professionals. You know, we need to be to be
16:32
taken into consideration the human aspect of project delivery
16:38
in in making sure that we are recognising that as leaders or
16:42
as organisation on an organisational level.
16:46
It's learning about yourself and how you how you deal with
16:49
stress, what kinds of stress you like.
16:51
And so becoming more self aware, I guess it's key to communicate
16:55
that to whoever's managing you or who whoever you answer to.
16:59
And it might be more than one person, but that can you have to
17:02
be pretty brave to be able to do that, unless you work in an
17:05
organisation where it's set up, but that support is set up and,
17:09
and, and they're, they're ready to help you.
17:12
Clara, what did you have any thoughts around this?
17:15
Yeah, Actually we're just going back to your original question
17:19
around the stage of career, because when we do our last
17:23
report, the APM study around well-being, we define early
17:27
career. Early career, the definition for
17:29
us is just getting to this profession, three to five years
17:34
of experience and then afterwards you progress to
17:36
middle level, you start to have the measurement responsibility a
17:39
little bit more and then you go to the senior.
17:41
So we found actually the most stressful group is the early
17:44
career profession. And then some of the possible
17:48
reason behind that, I think Veronica and and Michelle
17:51
already talk about is the lack of control that they feel
17:55
because they always need to say yes, OK, and then unclear
17:58
expectation. They don't know how to ask
18:00
question to clear, OK, what is the expectation on them and the
18:04
pressure to prove themselves. I think they both also talk
18:07
about it while they progress to the mid career profession, they
18:11
tend to feel also very squeezed by multiple projects, people
18:14
management, delivery deadlines and then they are all multiples
18:17
because usually you just handle multiple projects, right?
18:21
When they progress to senior, it's not saying that they have
18:25
nothing to do, OK. They still need to balance the
18:27
weight of strategic accountability, overall
18:29
portfolio performance, but still what they feel is they feel more
18:33
control over what they can achieve so that possibly
18:36
alleviate the stress level that they experience.
18:41
When it comes to different stresses you face in your work,
18:44
perhaps sometimes it's not just about how to having too much
18:47
work to do. Can it be a lack of work as
18:49
well? Yeah, definitely.
18:52
I think that it's not just about managing multiple projects at a
18:56
time that sometimes there, there is a lack of opportunity or a
19:01
lack of understanding of where you're going or, or seeing what
19:09
you're, where what you're actually doing is going to take
19:11
you. And a lot of organisations there
19:14
isn't, there aren't those opportunities, there aren't
19:16
training opportunities or opportunities to progress.
19:19
And I think that can be just as stressful as having to having
19:23
work overload or also not having enough work as well.
19:27
So having those periods of no growth when you're kind of left
19:32
to your own devices when projects projects are quiet,
19:36
that can be equally stressful because a lot of people need
19:40
need things to do and to keep their mind going and also to to
19:44
just know that their careers are going to be moving in in a
19:47
forward trajectory. So yeah, I think that can also
19:52
cause stress in a lot of project professionals lives too.
19:57
Yeah, it's horrible feeling stuck when you feel stuck in a
20:00
place where you like, you say you're not being stretched
20:03
enough or you're just treading water and.
20:05
You're right. That's a, that's a kind of
20:07
different kind of stress, isn't it?
20:09
But then if but either if the other two if you like to comment
20:13
on that. Stress is not necessarily a bad
20:18
thing. OK, we need certain level of
20:20
stress in order to perform well, but we're just talking about
20:25
excessive level of stress that leads you to burn our situation,
20:29
which is not good. So like what Richelle was
20:32
talking about, I think is falling into the group that
20:35
people not getting enough stress to perform well.
20:37
They don't get enough training, they don't get enough
20:40
opportunities to grow themselves.
20:42
I think that falls into that before getting too stressful at
20:46
the other end of the graph, because the graph should be in
20:48
AU shape. OK, you need certain level of
20:51
stress in order to make your performance at the top.
20:54
I think everyone needs the level of stress to, to, to, to get
20:58
better and better each time to flex the, the muscle, the brain
21:02
muscle, you need some level of stress, but not a prolonged
21:08
period of stress. It helps if you can see, say for
21:12
example, you've got deliverable, you've got deadlines.
21:15
Once you hit the deadlines, you're seeing, you know, light
21:17
at the end of the tunnel and that can be manageable.
21:21
So, you know, you've got, you've got to go through some level of
21:23
stress for a certain amount of time.
21:25
And after that you come out, you're winning, you're
21:28
celebrating your wins, you're celebrating the fact that you've
21:30
hit the deadline and your client is happy.
21:33
And you know, there's, yeah, stuff like that.
21:36
Just going back to Rochelle's point on not having anything to
21:41
do that can be very detrimental to people because then you, you,
21:44
you sit down and you're looking at your peers, for example,
21:48
their their stress, they're being stretched constantly.
21:51
And you start comparing yourself, what am I doing?
21:54
You start questioning your, your, your, your existence
21:57
really within your career. Did I make the right choice?
22:00
Especially if you've come from a different career path, you've
22:04
joined, say, project management from say, whether it be
22:08
architectural technology like I did.
22:10
I come in and I've got nothing to do.
22:12
I will definitely start comparing myself to my peers,
22:15
you know, maybe, yeah, you know, doubting myself and doubting my
22:19
decision. So it's definitely important to
22:21
have some some level of stress. What should the best
22:27
organisations be doing in terms of watching out the stress?
22:32
And too much stress will burnout within their team.
22:35
So is there any advice you would give to project managers or
22:39
project leaders about how to be the kind of boss that a person
22:44
would like to have when it comes to thinking about stress and
22:48
overload? Is there any advice you'd pass
22:51
on to people like that? Either you've picked up or
22:53
you've experienced yourself as someone who's had who's who's
22:56
got the right support. Yeah, I think, I think a people
23:02
centric approach is important when we're talking about stress
23:06
and delivering projects. You know, understanding people's
23:11
different strengths definitely take, you know, as a leader for
23:15
managing a project. If I know what my team's
23:18
capabilities are, I'm less likely to stress them out and
23:22
burn them out because I'm not asking for too much from them.
23:25
So it's definitely understanding that having these team meetings
23:29
catch up to, to make sure everyone is understands what
23:34
their requirement, what they're having, clear roles and
23:36
responsibilities, making sure those are communicated to the
23:39
wider team is for me, I think important.
23:42
Just speaking from experience. I always feel unsettled when I'm
23:47
not sure what's required of me. Therefore, clear rules and
23:51
responsibilities is absolutely fundamental for for to to be
23:57
able to deliver as you require them to.
24:00
And I guess it's having everyone else understand what you're,
24:03
what you've got on your desk. So I've had jobs before.
24:06
I had two bosses and one boss didn't know what the other one
24:09
was giving me. And it was really confusing and
24:11
really stressful because I, I was right in the middle and
24:15
neither knew how much my work code was.
24:17
So I guess the best project teams, everyone knows what
24:21
everyone's up against and is supportive.
24:23
Tell me a bit about the Boost meetings you have.
24:27
Yes, we have the booth. Meetings to set up, to set the
24:30
scene for the week. It's really a strategy, a
24:34
positive intervention strategy where people can feel heard, you
24:38
celebrate wins, you talk about what's happening in the week.
24:42
And just to give that, to give people that psychological
24:45
safety, you know, to be able to, to speak without judgement and,
24:48
and develop and that way, it's absolutely brilliant.
24:51
And I think I'd take it everywhere I go.
24:55
How long is it? Do you have it at the beginning
24:56
of the week so you have it on a Monday morning?
24:58
Yeah, Sunday morning with it being in Saudi Arabia, but yes,
25:03
half an hour and then if we've got more, more to do, would
25:06
probably take 45 minutes to talk about prospective projects and
25:11
stuff like that. Yeah, it's a, it's a brilliant
25:13
initiative. But as well as that, we also do
25:16
have champions, well-being champions within the office and
25:20
staff council leads to to just to make people aware that they
25:25
are people available when you are going through things.
25:28
And you need to have that discussion about surrounding
25:30
stress, whether it's resourcing, whether you're too, too
25:33
stretched. So yeah.
25:36
Do you feel confident now? How long do you think it takes
25:39
before you're able to say, look, I need some help because that
25:44
can be a really daunting thing to say and realise that it's not
25:46
your fault. It's not that you're failing,
25:48
it's that it's under resourced. Do you feel that in a position
25:52
where you can say that and that it gets listened to, there's one
25:56
thing saying it and some of your boss saying, well, just go on
25:59
with it tough. There's no more money or there's
26:01
no more resource to actually people listening and being able
26:04
to help or explain at least why that help isn't available.
26:09
Yeah, it does take a while. And again, just touching up on
26:13
my previous point, it does depend on the person's character
26:17
because you you can find an ECP who's very able to, to to say,
26:22
look, this is too much for me. I need support for ABC.
26:26
And then you can, you can find someone intermediate level
26:29
project manager not able to actually say what they require.
26:32
So it does character does play into it as well.
26:35
You know, having that just to say, actually, I need the
26:38
support. This is the situation.
26:40
And then wait, when you get to a situation where you have voiced
26:43
your concerns and nothing is being done, it then gets to a
26:47
point where you need to reflect. Is this what I want to be part
26:50
of? Because no mental health is
26:53
where you know, no, no job is working mental health.
26:57
You do have to take a step back and reflect to see what you
27:01
know, what's the best way forward because it can be quite
27:04
detrimental. I think Rochelle, you mentioned
27:08
that you have been through a burnout and it's recognising not
27:11
you don't want to get to that level.
27:13
What do you do? You have to reflect on you know
27:17
where you are, what you need to do moving forward.
27:20
On that point. As.
27:22
Project professionals, we are always taught the importance of
27:24
communication and I know that Clara mentioned that there is an
27:27
organisational responsibility to ensure that our well-being is
27:32
being managed and I I fully support that.
27:35
But I also see the flip side of the fact that as individuals we
27:40
need to be better at self advocating for ourselves.
27:43
We need to actually know our boundaries and also our level of
27:49
tolerance. So for example, yeah, IA number
27:52
of years ago, actually slightly before I started as a project
27:56
professional, I was managing projects in that role, but I
28:00
actually went through a period of burnout and stress and low
28:05
mood. So it was a part where I was
28:09
able to manage loads of work. And you can manage multiple
28:13
projects and do it really successfully and thrive on the
28:15
stress. But the minute something
28:17
external happens in your personal life, something
28:20
unexpected happens, that's sort of what might tick you over the
28:23
edge. And that's what happened to me.
28:25
So these things were going on in the background at home and at
28:29
home, at work, I'm still trying to manage and I still have this
28:32
responsibility because all this time I've been so successful at
28:35
managing these projects. It's absolutely still required
28:38
of me. And at that point, I wasn't
28:41
particularly good at communicating.
28:43
I thought, you know, well, I've been good at managing these
28:46
projects for so long, I need to maintain this.
28:49
But also, I had no room to breathe with everything that
28:53
else that was going on at home. So, and I think that that
28:56
happens in a lot of circumstances, but we need to be
28:59
better at communicating. It's a key project skill to
29:04
have. But if we don't, if we don't
29:08
know our own boundaries. So that kind of taught me my
29:12
level of tolerance and I kind of needed to be to get to that
29:16
point and to get to burn out and, and that level of poor
29:20
well-being to know that this I'm not, I can't get back to this
29:24
level once it starts to get to this point, it's time to put
29:28
some things into place to sort of manage that.
29:31
And that included, you know, communicating, letting people
29:35
around me know what was going on.
29:37
Was that quite hard to do? Is there any advice about how to
29:41
do that well that you've learned?
29:43
Do do people tend to really fear it?
29:45
But when they sit down with someone often find that people
29:48
can be very supportive? I've been really lucky with who
29:53
then the where I've worked. So I worked in mental health.
29:56
So there was that general understanding before I moved
29:59
into project management of the need to support people and
30:04
people's differences and, and that kind of thing.
30:07
And that kind of gave me the foundation, but it didn't stop
30:09
me from, from being burnt out and, and reaching that level.
30:13
But what it did help was the fact that I could always
30:17
communicate and I there was, there were people around me that
30:20
would support me. So for example, I used the
30:23
workplace employee assistance programmes.
30:27
So that included cognitive behavioural therapy and
30:32
counselling, which was part of the, the things I did to help to
30:37
manage my well-being. But it is, I find that finding
30:42
allies, I would, I'll use the term allies, but finding people
30:45
within your organisation or building good relationships is
30:48
really key. So a lot of us, we do say, oh,
30:52
keep your work and your home life separate.
30:54
But actually, if people don't know anything about you, they
30:57
don't know you know your lifestyle, they don't even know
31:00
you have children, they don't know you're anything about you,
31:03
they're not going to be able to support you in in a reasonable
31:07
way. So I think teams leaders need to
31:11
learn about their people and vice versa.
31:15
So that you know, as as a group of as your project team or as,
31:19
as the, the people that you're leading.
31:23
You all know your triggers. You all know when you're, you
31:26
know, you're getting to that point of sort of no return so
31:29
that everyone can kind of support you rather than just
31:32
being in your individual silo. You're I'm going to manage this
31:35
on my own. I don't want anybody to know
31:37
about my personal circumstances because it's not a negative.
31:41
It's not a bad thing to to share these challenges.
31:46
I suppose Rochelle just picking up on that and working
31:51
individually in a silo, no one knowing anything about you.
31:55
When you work that way, it's really difficult to, to build
31:58
trust. And when you've got trust, it's
32:01
easy to work and work to a common goal.
32:03
That is one of one of the criteria to, to, to building an
32:08
effective team. It's that trust knowing each
32:11
other outside of work. You don't have to to tell them
32:14
everything about you, but you, you should be, there should be
32:18
some level of trust for, for people, for teams to be
32:21
effective and efficient. Otherwise it's just it becomes
32:25
impossible, doesn't it, to to work to a common goal without
32:28
the trust? Well, Rochelle, I wanted to
32:31
thank you for sharing that with us.
32:32
And also we're touching on some really big things now.
32:35
Cara, is this we? What should an individual do in
32:41
order to prevent getting to where Rochelle was, which is
32:46
being burned out because prevention is better than cure.
32:49
This is much easier said than done.
32:51
So how can you as an individual know what's right for you and
32:57
protect it? So protect your mental health.
33:00
I think. You.
33:03
Detect the sign where you leave the edge of burnout.
33:07
OK, just like what Rochelle was talking about.
33:11
You know yourself OK whether you have no mood consistently.
33:15
You. You feel you lose interest on
33:18
the stuff that you're usually you're interested in.
33:21
So you need to detect this on the sign just like myself, OK, I
33:25
on top of my research, I carry several senior leadership role
33:30
and I also have a lot of international collaboration
33:32
projects required me to travel constantly, OK, around the
33:37
world. And I also need to manage three
33:39
young kids at home. So you can imagine this is like
33:43
a jungle. And then you will have problems
33:47
from your family which will affect your work.
33:49
OK, For example, my boy is sick. I cannot deliver the class
33:53
eventually I cannot go in. Then get that gets back to
33:57
Rochelle's earliest point. Do you have do you do your group
34:01
members understand your situation?
34:03
Do you have alliance which could help you step up to help your
34:07
work? OK, at least to temporarily help
34:10
you to teach for a while. OK, so all this will help you to
34:15
prevent, to get into the point of burnout, OK?
34:17
So first of all, understand yourself, set the boundary
34:20
before you step in, before you enter into that point, ask for
34:24
help. I think that is very important.
34:28
And then don't believe because you ask for help, you are a weak
34:32
person. I think this kind of mindset we
34:34
need to change, OK? Because that not just affect
34:38
yourself, if you don't ask for help, you eventually affect the
34:41
entirety. Because if you burn out, that
34:44
means you're not coming back for a long period of time or you get
34:47
sick, OK, That is really not, not good.
34:51
OK. So I think that kind of mindset
34:53
we we really need to advocate and change so that people are
34:57
more open to share their challenges and ask for help.
35:02
I think it's clear that we're everyone is under different
35:04
types of stress. So you have the stress of your
35:07
getting your job done, you have outside of work stresses, but
35:11
also something we shall said about you have the stress of the
35:14
project you're working on, but there might be organisational
35:17
stresses in the background. For example, within it NHS, we
35:21
know there's big shifts happening and that's something
35:25
you that's beyond your control. So how do you cultivate what a
35:31
type of mindset or an attitude towards work way you can almost
35:37
deal with that in a sensible way?
35:38
Is there anything the three of you have learnt through working
35:42
about the type of attitude that can be effective that can help
35:47
you successfully deal with stress?
35:50
In the midst of all the changes, organisational changes, but
35:53
you've got no, no control over, I think the best thing for you
35:58
is just stay open to learning through the chaos.
36:03
Stay open to learning and see this sometimes not too much
36:06
stress, the level of stress. See that as an opportunity to
36:10
grow, grow from from one level to another, for example, and
36:14
just making yourself adaptable because change is constant.
36:17
Like you say, a lot of decisions are being made at an
36:21
organisational level. There's nothing you can do about
36:24
it. But what you can do is something
36:25
you you've got control over is how well you deliver and how,
36:30
how a thing open to change, making sure you're learning and
36:34
adapting and growing so so that when you, when things are
36:39
settled down, you feel you know you're not you're not left
36:42
behind as to say you're you're still developing through the
36:46
chaos. That sounds brilliant.
36:48
How can I pin you down? Because what does that actually
36:50
mean in in reality? Like learning or growing from
36:55
something that could seem quite daunting?
36:58
How do you actually put that into practise as an individual?
37:02
I feel everything as an opportunity, no matter how
37:05
difficult it is. I may be asked to do a task that
37:09
I've never done before, but I know I will definitely gain
37:12
something out of it. I might not enjoy it, for
37:16
example, but I do it and I'll that's the skill that I've got
37:19
now to use in in my next chapter in life, for example.
37:24
It's like how you frame it, framing something that could
37:27
seem really daunting or difficult, so you don't want to
37:29
do something. I will go away with having
37:32
learned something, either a technical skill or a personal
37:36
skill or something. There's something useful I'll
37:38
take away that's really great. I'm I'm going to try and take
37:42
that mindset on. I think we call the growth
37:45
mindset and I always frame it. I also make it as OK, you have a
37:52
challenge, then that means you have opportunity.
37:53
But I always tell myself it's just a matter of time.
37:57
I will master OK. Keep.
37:59
Coming back to myself, it's difficult, but it's just a
38:01
matter of time. Give myself a little bit time to
38:04
grow into that space. So keep telling yourself like
38:07
this will push you regulatively hard or more positive.
38:11
Stay positive around that and on top of all this, I how I manage
38:18
it. I think I always try to tie up,
38:22
although that situation is stressful, but whether that
38:25
could bring a deeper sense of purpose that align with what I
38:29
try to do, what I try to achieve for my life, for my work.
38:33
So, for example, like I, I, I my vision is to help workplace to
38:39
become safer, healthier and more inclusive.
38:42
This is my vision for my work. I try to align that with what I
38:46
need to cope with. OK are the challenges whatever
38:50
that come through. I think that is quite work quite
38:53
well for myself because you know, you're working for
38:56
something bigger than just the task in front of you now.
39:00
And the other tips I think is quite useful is really try to
39:04
tie up with your personal strengths when you tackle with
39:07
the challenge, whether you can bring out the best of yourself,
39:11
no matter you're good at dealing with people, you're you're you
39:15
like to learn, OK, Whether you can tie all this up with what
39:18
you need to tackle. I think that also helps me along
39:20
the journey because that will fuel the energy, not just drain
39:24
you down. OK.
39:26
So those are the stuff that I think is quite, quite useful.
39:30
It's really useful, Rochelle. Was anything you wanted to add?
39:34
Yeah. I was just going to say for me,
39:36
the lack of control, you know, the uncertainty, so I can deal
39:40
with uncertainty in my projects because it's not directly
39:43
happening to me. But things like organisational
39:47
change, those kind of leadership changes and that kind of future
39:50
unknowingness. I would usually, you know,
39:53
there's no time scales often or you know, you just have to wait,
39:57
you have to sit back. So as a project manager who
39:59
likes to be in control, I've kind of really had to learn the
40:01
skill of relax, what will be will be and we just need to roll
40:07
with it, which is totally alien to everything in my body.
40:11
So I need to know what's happening.
40:12
I need to be in control and I need to have the end goal, you
40:16
know, the end date and be working towards it.
40:18
So. Yeah, I've had to really change.
40:21
And I think as I've, as I've gotten older and more used to,
40:27
there are lots of changes that have happened.
40:30
You kind of learn to kind of roll with it and, and just go
40:34
through it rather than stressing about each day.
40:38
So and, and what, where, where we're going to be in, in six
40:42
months or a year or whatever. So yeah, it's quite a skill to
40:46
just relax. So some really brilliant advice
40:50
here. Can I ask you, has anyone
40:52
learned anything about how to say no?
40:55
So a first of all, feeling that you should push back.
40:59
And then how do you say no to something in the right way?
41:03
Because I imagine you need to say it in the right way because
41:06
you don't want to go away fearful that you've upset your
41:10
boss or you said I'm not capable or I'm failing.
41:13
So but yeah, it's you recognise that you have boundaries that
41:17
you need to protect and it's just too much.
41:19
So if any of you picked up anything about how to say no in
41:22
the right way or just being able to push back to people.
41:27
To me counter off the choice for that.
41:30
Counter off of the choice. What do you mean by that?
41:32
Say let's begin negotiations, you're saying.
41:35
Yes, because just give you an example.
41:38
I handle a lot of projects, I mean research projects, and then
41:41
I need to handle a lot of stakeholders for each of the
41:43
projects. They would try their best to
41:45
change the scope of the project. And then I would just tell them,
41:49
OK, if you want to change A, you want to additionally you want to
41:54
add A into the scope, then you need to trade off B originally
41:57
on the scope. What do you think about that?
41:59
Then it is, oh, actually you're right, that is more important.
42:03
So that's why I say it's giving them it sounds like a choice.
42:07
OK, Yeah. Well, actually, yes, you're
42:09
right, it's negotiation. OK, Veronica picked up.
42:15
Yeah. Yeah.
42:17
I mean, when it comes to resourcing, I think that's the
42:20
biggest challenge where you're being asked to do more, get
42:24
involved in more than two, three projects.
42:27
It's, it sounds easier saying it, but actually have the facts,
42:33
the, you know, the factual information.
42:36
I've got this project to deliver.
42:38
It requires so much time for me to do it.
42:42
Break it down and communicate it to them.
42:44
Actually put it on paper, Communicate it to whether it be
42:47
your resource manager or your line manager and see how they
42:51
respond to it. If if you've got it written down
42:54
and it makes sense, it's highly unlikely someone's going to say,
42:57
actually, you still need to do five extra projects or five
43:03
extra tasks. I feel like having that in
43:06
writing definitely does help in, in, in winning the battle to say
43:10
actually, I, I absolutely can't, can't pick this up for this
43:14
reason. It's visible when you so show
43:17
someone something visually. It's really difficult to say
43:20
actually, no, you know it. We still need you to do it.
43:24
Well, it's, it becomes a, a wee problem, not just my problem.
43:28
So what do we, what can we do, what extra resources can we get
43:32
to, you know, to, to deliver this?
43:36
And this is where the organisations then come in.
43:39
It depends on what type of organisation you're working for.
43:42
Some, some might just say, look, this is it, you have to do it,
43:45
we've got nobody else to do it. But then you then have to start
43:49
reflecting again. Is this where I want to be?
43:53
But we are problem solvers too. So as project professionals, we
43:56
are problem solvers. So I'm always of the mindset
43:58
that saying no is not a weakness.
44:00
But if I'm going to say no, I can come up with some some
44:04
strategies or some plan for what the alternatives can be.
44:09
So for example, I would go to colleagues who I know may have
44:13
more capacity or may be able to support me.
44:16
And I'm not just going to go with the problem.
44:18
I'm going to try and come and go with the solution because I
44:22
think that that always is, is favourable rather than pushing
44:25
the problem back to your line manager or your leader to say,
44:30
look, I just can't do this. If you are able to have a plan
44:36
for the alternatives, I think that often helps as well.
44:39
Because it, you're right, it isn't a me isn't isn't just a me
44:42
problem, it's a we problem. But I can also facilitate in
44:46
that because they my my manager is a programme manager.
44:50
So he has a programme of projects that he has to manage.
44:53
So by just having the things that are causing me stress and
44:58
trying to offload them on someone else, it can be
45:01
detrimental to the rest of the team or other people.
45:04
So try to strategize how to solve some of these problems
45:07
too. Just wrapping up now, if there's
45:10
one thing that you'd like listeners like us all to take
45:14
away from, from your whole experience of managing stress
45:18
and avoiding burnout, what would that one thing be?
45:21
Clara, I'd like to ask you that. I would say dialogue.
45:26
I mean, keep open communication and as a leader, as a project
45:30
manager, create a psychological safety space so that people are
45:35
willing to talk to you. I think that is very important.
45:38
How do you do that? Everyone talks about creating a
45:41
psychological safe site. Is it partly role modelling
45:44
yourself what that means? Yes, I think role modelling is
45:49
very important. I mean, no matter.
45:51
You. Really doing more mentoring, OK,
45:55
for people in your group and as well as if you are going back to
46:00
the stress management, you are the symbol of taking off, OK.
46:03
You are the person who really take off in a visible way so
46:07
that people will know, OK, she's serious about that.
46:09
He is. She is serious about work life
46:12
balance. I think that those are the
46:13
symbolic meaning as a leader we should be aware of.
46:18
Thank you, Michelle. What would what would be your
46:21
one thing that you'd like us to go?
46:23
Home with. I'm definitely of the opinion
46:26
that a problem shared is a problem halved.
46:28
That old saying there you don't struggle alone.
46:32
And also by identifying your own triggers, it's one of the most
46:36
important things that you can do because you will be able to know
46:39
yourself better than than anyone else.
46:43
And also what is about to tip you over the edge so you can put
46:47
in place measures that can help to prevent you getting, you
46:52
know, pushed over the edge so you can ask for support and
46:57
communicate. So sharing your problems isn't a
47:00
weakness. You know you people.
47:03
We need support in every aspect of our lives, so it's important.
47:07
Can I ask how you protect yourself now?
47:10
So are you very religious about logging off or having certain
47:14
work hours? Or do you make sure you make
47:18
time to do other things outside of work that you know relieves
47:21
stress? Yeah.
47:23
So for me, I, I and like I said, I need to know what's going on
47:29
and things like that. So I actually do the opposite.
47:31
And I'm sure that you ladies were probably going to say this
47:34
is not good for me. Things like on a Sunday night, I
47:38
may check my emails and I know advocate for that, but but this
47:43
is what helps me to plan my week.
47:46
So there's no unexpected. Well, there will be unexpected
47:49
things happening, but I'm I'm aware of what's going on.
47:52
So it's really individual. So things like for me after I
47:58
will change, change outlook. If I'm in the office, I change
48:01
out of my work clothes and try to disassociate my home life
48:07
from my work life. But I do check my emails, you
48:11
know, but I'm not as I was before where I'd go on holiday
48:14
and be thinking of work and and working and to the point where I
48:19
was dreaming about my projects, which is not everybody.
48:24
So. Yeah, I've definitely learned to
48:28
balance that because I know my, I know my triggers, I know what
48:34
will happen and you know, I don't want to get back into that
48:38
place or burnout. So yeah, it's very individual as
48:42
to what even as to what we can do to prevent stress.
48:47
But yeah, definitely logging off if if you you know, logging off
48:51
and disassociating your private, your personal life from your
48:54
work life is important. I think that's a great point
48:56
because we're bombarded with so much information about what you
48:59
should hate, what you should be doing, you should be doing this
49:02
and that, but actually you should be doing what's right for
49:06
you. And if that means going against
49:08
the advice that's given, it doesn't matter because it's what
49:11
works for you. It's what works for you.
49:13
Yeah. OK, Veronica, what?
49:16
What? What would be your takeaway?
49:19
Everything in life hinges on a good plan.
49:22
So whether you plan on going on holiday and checking your
49:26
emails, that's fine as long as you do plan to say, look, I will
49:30
check my emails at this time and then take time off actually to
49:33
switch off. That's why I laughed when
49:35
Rochelle was saying I'm on holiday.
49:37
I do check my emails on a Sunday.
49:40
As long as that's what works for you, I think that's that's
49:42
brilliant, but it's planning. Planning is critical.
49:45
You say, I'll plan to take some time out to do whatever it is
49:49
that helps you recharge, whether it's going to the gym, whether
49:52
it's spending time with your son or whatever you do to, to
49:57
recharge and, you know, re energise ready to get back to
50:00
work. Plan to do that.
50:02
And also plan for a resource to take over the work that you're
50:06
doing when you're on holiday, for example, they help you sleep
50:10
easy because I'm, I'm sure everyone goes through this
50:13
situation where you're on holiday and you think, you know,
50:16
I didn't do that or something needs to be done.
50:18
You know, it's planning. Plan for a resource to pick that
50:21
up while you're away. It gives you that Peace of Mind.
50:26
Thank you so much. We've had we've covered so much
50:28
ground. There's been so many brilliant
50:30
tips that you've passed on. And I've never done a podcast
50:32
with so many fantastic sound bites.
50:35
It just leads me to to say thank you.
50:37
Thanks everyone for joining us today.
50:39
And I wanted to thank listeners for for listening to us today to
50:44
the APM podcast. I'd also like to mention the
50:47
Workplace Well-being profile on the APM website,
50:52
whichisapm.org.uk. And and don't forget to look out
50:56
for more episodes or to rate and review us wherever you get your
50:59
podcasts. And we'd welcome you to get in
51:01
touch with your comments, feedback and suggestions by
51:04
emailing us at apmpodcast@thinkpublishing.co.uk.
51:09
And Spotify users can also send us feedback directly within the
51:12
Spotify app. This podcast has been brought to
51:15
you by APM, the chartered body for the project profession.
51:19
For more information on APM, visit to apm.org.uk.