Latest / Boner and Mirror Tarot / Light The Fucking Beacon
Transcript
- Molly: Hello and welcome to Bona and Mira Tarot, the delightfully irresponsible little sibling of Bona and Mira Tarot. My name is Molly and each week three Tarot cards will enter this podcast. One will get fucked, one married and one will get pushed off a cliff. It's childish, it is completely subjective and it is surprisingly revealing. Because if you know me and you know Bona Mira Tarot, you'll know that I don't believe that the tarot is about predicting the future. It's a mirror, a way of meeting yourself through symbolism, psychology, embodiment, and the wisdom of the cards. And Bona and Mira Tarot takes exactly the same approach, just with a lot more giggling. we'll put three tarot archetypes through the highly scientific and deeply philosophical game of fuck, marry, push off a cliff. Which archetype deserves your undying devotion? Which one's worth a passionate fling? And which one absolutely needs to get into the sea? Along the way, we'll explore what the cards reveal about attraction, avoidance, projection, shadow, values, and the wonderfully strange way we make meaning. Expect depth psychology, archetypes, embodiment, the odd tantric tangents, and plenty of opportunities to laugh at yourself. No fortune telling, no spiritual perfection, just three cards, one ridiculous dilemma and whatever they happen to reveal. So whether you're here for the psychology, the tarot or your own deeply irrational grudge against the Seven of Cups, welcome to Bona and Mirra Tarot. Let's shuffle the cards, suspend our dignity and see who's getting married today. Hello and welcome back to another episode of Bona and Mira Tarot. I am absolutely delighted, honoured, just so thrilled to welcome Hannah Hannah: He Molly: today. I'm so excited to have you here. Hannah, could you please tell the listeners who you are, what it is that you do, your relationship to tarot and meaning making. Hannah: Hi Molly, well look, first of all, thanks so much for the invitation. I'm really, really delighted to be here. I'm Hannah Joy Graves, but most people know me as Cult Mother. Hello, darlings. so I first picked up a Taro deck about six years ago, so actually not that long. and with a whole heap of audacity, having taught myself a ten-card Celtic cross spread, I just sort of started reading Taro for anyone who would let me. and so with a bit of practice I thought it was time to take it full time after about two years. and so for about the last five, nearly six years now, I've been kind of reading and teaching Taro as my full time gig, and I also have a Patreon where I collaborate with other people around kind of taro or spiritual witchy based kind of content, which has grown a lot now. Over about half a decade as well. Molly: and Hannah: so I'm a busy witch, but I really wouldn't have it any other way. Molly: Thank you so much. am, yeah, it's just so deeply, deeply grateful for you being here and, you know, like, of course I watch your content and just love the way that you approach the cards. yeah, so excited that you're here purely because when I watch your videos, I'm like, yes, okay, this is the vibe, right? Like this is someone who doesn't necessarily prescribe to the very sometimes strict, stricter side of Tarot. which Hannah: Yeah. Molly: I, if you've listened to this podcast or you watch my content, you'll know that I like to fuck around and find out with the tarot, which is... Hannah: One of my favorite expressions. Right? Especially Card Zero the Fool. Fuck around and find out. The energy of the pages, right? Absolutely. And when I teach Taro, I make the point of saying we have no known precise origin point for Taro as we are interacting with it today. Lots of different people have thrown their hat in the ring now over centuries. So with no known point of origin, we've got no known point of authority. Which means really no one can tell you that you are wrong. When it comes to your interpretation, it's yours. That's the entire point. so Molly: and Hannah: the well you can't read that like this because it means that is well, yeah, not the way I do things. Yeah. and Molly: Yeah. Hannah: and and I absolutely understand, you know, having reverence for a craft, understanding tradi tradition, the importance of practice. You know, we've all learnt a lot about cultural appropriation and Newsflash, there's a whole load of it in a lot of the decks that we work with, you know. but yeah, I I guess being a little bit of a renegade has been important to to Cult Mother. I think someone dubbed me the Enfant Terribler of Esoterica once and I took that and ran with it. Molly: I'm gonna love you. Yeah. Hannah: because I guess being disruptive in that very wishy, washy no teeth spiritual space was not gonna be it for me, and it definitely isn't right now. Molly: No. Shall we do some disrupting? you ready to make some... Hannah: Yes, I'm so honestly Molly, I am so excited. As I said to Molly before we started today, I'm just really jealous I didn't come up with this. I think it's the coolest concept for a taro-based chat ever. Molly: I'm so glad. Let's make some questionable choices. So I'm going to be using... Hannah: Let's the story of my life. Molly: I'm going to be using the Light Seers. It is just kind of my mother tongue deck, but of course you can pull from Hannah: Amazing. Molly: whichever imagery feels most resonant for you. We'll do awkward pause whilst I shuffle and let's see what we get. okay, interesting, Hannah: Yeah. Molly: interesting. So your options are, your options, we have a major, so we have the hermit. Hannah: come on Virgo. Let's go. Mmm. Molly: We have the page of swords. Hannah: I have history with that one. Molly: I'm excited to hear and we have the Queen of Cups. Yes. huh. Hannah: Okay, this is hard. This g this just got quite difficult, right? Molly: Yeah. I mean, What are your initial responses to those three? Hannah: Initial responses is I'm shoving the page of swords straight off a cliff. Yeah, Molly: do tell. Hannah: I I just i like I said, I've got history with the page of swords, so when I was first kind of discovering Taro, it really crept up on me. I've told that story a lot, but I I left the house one day in a bit of a state. You know when you're really looking for a sign? And you can't get any signing a sign because someone's done a giant paste-up of the Tar of the Page of Swords. in your neighbourhood and you're like, wait, isn't that one of those tarot card things? And you Google the meaning about standing strong in the face of adversity and there's opportunity in that and you maybe calm your ass down and go back in your house and Molly: Eww. Hannah: so that that card is one that I absolutely have a complicated relationship with. But the reason that it's going off the cliff, especially in comparison to the other two at the moment, is that I really struggle with relinquishing that grip on the need to know. And in the energy of a page, right, we we want to be an apprentice. We wanna be able to kind of learn and grow in new and different directions. And in the energy of the swords, in the energy of good, bad, win, lose, stay-go, you can see the grip, you know, in the Rideawaite Smith illustration in that deck, the figure is absolutely resilient. But I'm I'm tired of being resilient. I need soft. I need I need sit down, put the sword down, let the wind blow. You know, more will be revealed. kind of energy right now. So as much as I love the, like I said, the plucky resilience, the kind of bring it on energy that the Page of Swords can can bring sometimes. The lack of ability to kind of move in the grey areas, the to get comfortable with the unknown, I think is is the reason why sadly, given the choice between those three, the the Page of Swords is getting pushed off a clip. Molly: I resonate so deeply with that that unknown aspect. It's something that I've been working on for a long time. For those of you who know me well or maybe you know my story, you might know that my mum passed away four years ago and post her death, I really have been kind of catapulted into this experience of being like, wow, fuck, I have spent a long time in my life having this. I mean, my also my star sign is Taurus Virgo Virgo. So you can imagine how you can imagine you can imagine that. Hannah: wow, okay, yeah, yeah, yeah. I have a Virgo moon, so already like hard relate with that trilogy going on there, yeah. Trinity. Molly: hard relate to this just incessant need to know and to control the outcome and to control how I'm perceived. and Hannah: Page of Swords. Molly: the pages, I mean, I love the pages. I love their curiosity and their naivety and that sense of wonder, but the Hannah: Mm-hmm. Molly: swords themselves, you know, I do like this particular image. She's got like kind of these light bulbs. Hannah: Yes. Molly: and there's this wind blowing around, she's reading a book, it's this idea of like, all of ideas are flitting everywhere and it's like, how exciting, and I'm like, my brain is already too full. It's too full. Hannah: Yes. Well, also if you think about the page sitting off the back of the eight, nine, and ten of swords, sorry Gemini, right? Like the the Molly: Mmm. Hannah: whole idea of we've got a real lesson here already about what our understanding of resilience means when applied to this suit, right? It's the suit of I just need to think more and try harder. And it's a strategy that ultimately in the suit of swords fails us. But the the page It's still gonna fuck around and find out. right. Molly: love you. Hannah: So absolutely the capacity for learning, that ability to move with some confidence and clarity because we are allowing ourselves to be naive. Delicious. But as you said, you know, we're we're kind of tired and we're kind of stressed. Molly: Mmm. Hannah: and I love what you said there about, you know, grief. I talk about it a lot at the moment because of where we are collectively, where I am personally. Like it's the five of cups. Grief has a quality to it. that you you just described, when you are in it, you lose your ability to sweat the small stuff. You become painfully aware of what mat who you really are and what actually matters to you. and Molly: you Hannah: even though the practical logical elements, the swords and the pentacles might not have fallen into place yet, that awareness is so powerful, but there's a cruelty in the fact that as time passes we lose it. You know, and I almost feel like there's there's a gift in the collapse of the Ten of Swords. Honey, when you're done, you're done. Whereas the Page Molly: Good. Hannah: of Swords like, nah, I'm just gonna come out swinging one more time and it might th for me that's something I have really had to work on, in the last few years. Molly: Mm. I love that. Like, and that, you know, that sweating the small stuff, everything feels irrelevant when you're stuck in grief, right? It feels Hannah: Yes. Yeah. Molly: so irrelevant. And for me, The Swords is a, I talk about it a lot, is around that mind made story. the, like, The Swords for me is the wonderful ways in which our brain can deceive us again and again and again. my God. Like, how is it possible that my own brain can deceive me into thinking I'm someone that I'm not, or I'm not Hannah: Yeah. Molly: good enough, not this, not that. And so the page with that kind of, I really love the way that you've connected that, the 10 of swords, and then the page just being like, I'm gonna give it one more go. Hannah: Yeah. Molly: And you're like, breathe, calm down. Hannah: Exactly, you know, like I said in in the Rider Wait Smith illustration we have the idea of this person stood braced in the wind, holding the sword, ready for whatever is coming their way. But if you leave the house looking for a fight, you'll probably find one. That relinquish Molly: you Hannah: the grip, I think a a really strong message for me in the sword suit. but also, you know, I I always when in my work it's not our fault. Our swords, our conscious awareness is designed to protect us and keep us safe. So uncertainty will lead to anxiety, a lack of information or clarity is going to be difficult for us. And then we have to remember that we are living now in a world where various factions are working fairly tirelessly to disconnect us from anything else other than this conscious awareness that is also now permanently hooked on dopamine and drama and stress. And you know, I I I just think we have a have to have a lot of self compassion, and we'll get to talk about this with our Queen of Cups. We have to have a lot of compassion for ourselves right now. Because sometimes you are just gonna sit there in the Nine of Swords and it it's part of the human experience. It's taking Molly: you Hannah: the rough with the smooth. It's acknowledging that trying to perceive and know and understand is difficult and impossible for us at times. Molly: my god, yeah. just, this episode could be like 50 hours, do know what mean? Hannah: Yeah, let's do let's go. we need we need depth, we need depth, we need these conversations. I'm someone who's tired now of having to try to do what I do in three minutes because everybody Molly: and Hannah: wants a reel and they want the quick insight, the fast awareness, but it won't heal us in the way that we need right now. So we need to have Molly: Yeah Hannah: more in depth conversations and doing it around these cards I think is a great access point for so many people. Molly: Thank you. I have this question and it's not a question that I don't think anybody can answer, but I just, you kind of named that at a societal, cultural, wider level, we have a really difficult relationship with the sword with logic, because of our long history of a cognis centric view of Hannah: Mm. Molly: the world and how you know, the kind of dominant masculine, the patriarchy, kind of all the, all of the things that have led us to believe that, you know, the logic and the mind is the only way to know. And so Hannah: Yes. Yeah. Molly: my question, and again, it's not something you can answer. I'm just gonna throw it out here. Had that not happened, had we not been in a long history of just kind of oppression when it comes to our deeper ways of knowing, the Hannah: Mm. Molly: feeling function of knowing through body, would the swords look different? Because Hannah: Yes. Molly: you're talking about the swords in such a beautiful way around clarity and the way in which the brain keeps us safe. But Hannah: Mm. Molly: I think the reason that the suit of the swords unfolds in the way it does is because of the societal and cultural level of cogniscentrism. And so I wonder what would the swords, how would it unfold in a world that wasn't people walking around as believing that they're just walking brains without a body? Hannah: Fim I think a a again, not a a definitive answer, but a point of kind of meditation there is the difference between in the relationship between the Swords and the Pentacles and the Cups and the Wand. So Swords and Pentacles are grounding us here into this realm where we have to do and be in the earth-based Pentacles, physical body of it all, right? We invest our time, energy, effort, resources, we cultivate stability, abundance, value. swords is where we've got that willpower. You know, swords is also where we have the willpower to follow through, to make choices and decisions, to apply action. But they are very much in in our practical realm. Cups and wands start to kind of almost awaken us to something a little different. Because cups tune us into the subconscious, and then the subconscious can consider its relationship then with the swords, with the pentacles, but then enter the wands. Because ones is something less quantifiable and something that is much more varied, I think, across all of us in our experience. Because for me, ones is as straightforward as what is it that lights you up? It's your Molly: Mm. Hannah: personality, Pizzazz, spirit, right? It's what you deem to be the most kind of authentic version of you and what you want to do, make, create, and experience in alignment with that. So I think for me, if we were gonna readdress the balance and kind of take some of the fear away from where we're so cognizantly kind of stuck in the swords. It's coming back to that idea of having other parts of self as symbolized by these suits that have to have a relationship with one another. That's why Taro Molly: All right. Hannah: and the way Wheelay spreads and we start to see the relationship between that cups card and that swords card and it's awakening us to that idea of you do have these other aspects of self. That have an awareness and a knowing and an experience. And again, that understanding of the relationship where they that they have with each other, things have to stir and percolate in our cups, for example, before one's energy can take hold with clarity and with confidence. We're gonna be able to re better reassure where we are in our swords, the more time we've been able to spend in our cups. That for me, those kind of intersections and relationships in the suits is is where that idea of readdressing the balance or removing an over reliance or dependence on just one starts to it's a big part of Molly: Hmm. Hannah: the work we do with Taro is waking people to this awareness, reconnecting them with their own intuition. I trust my clients' intuition more than my own. I just want them to be able to feel it and and and hear it. Molly: and Hannah: but yeah, Page of Swords off a cliff Molly: Bye bye. Splash at the bottom. Sorry, payment. Hannah: I'm tired of being resilient. I wanna go soft. I don't wanna have to draw my sword just to face the day. Not today. So for that reason, Molly: Not today. Hannah: for that reason, I'm sorry, Page of Swords. Molly: And that leaves you with the hermit and the queen of cups, one of whom you have Hannah: It's very Molly: to fuck and one of whom you have to marry. Hannah: I'm I this is very difficult now. I also have a comp I have a complicated relationship with every w single one of these cards. but absolutely with the Queen of Cups. Our Lady of Empaths. So sensitive she might be psychic, but she could also just be having a psychotic break, right? Because in the energy of the Queen of Cups, even though in the Rideawaite Smith deck we have an illustration where we're kind of grounded on a shoreline We are also surveying the vastness of the ocean, right? And there is something for me in the Queen of Cups that always makes me feel like a nerve ending flapping in the wind. Because the beautiful, vulnerable, sensitive, compassionate, kinda beautifully modelled self care of the Queen of Cups is a little alien to me, if I'm honest. Molly: I find her very confronting Hannah: Mm. Molly: in the level of depth that she goes to. Hannah: Great word. Yes. Molly: purely, and this, I mean, this is the point of the podcast, right? Like I'm projecting onto her and that's the reason I find her confronting because Hannah: Mm. Mm Yes. Molly: I'm, with my experience of grief, I'm not willing to go there yet. Hannah: I always say with the Queens, the Queens for me is where the pause connect, reflect, comes in. Right? The i they are the be here now moment that makes the outward focus, confident energy of a king so potent. It's the yin and Molly: Mmm. Hannah: the yang. They they need to know one another and work in balance with one another. And then we get that Queen of Cups connection, illustratively in the Rideaway Smith, and astrologically, but you you get a connection to temperance, the foot on the ground, the foot in the water, but also the energy of Aquarius, the star. This is Molly: Mmm. Hannah: world changer energy. It's the feel it to heal it energy. And I do like to say people when it to people when it comes to the Queen of Cups, we will think there is a wave coming that can throw us from this throne. But in the energy of a queen, that is simply not the case. The opportunity to really be receptive to what it is that's moving and stirring is fucking inconvenient in a modern world. That's part Molly: Mmm. Hannah: of what makes it so difficult. I can't afford to commune with myself in the way that I need to, because you're right. I then have to go to work, I then have responsibilities, I have to care for others, I have to run a business. I can't feel the depth of my feelings right now. But the fact we don't afford ourselves that opportunity and that that is being removed from us, I believe is a part of why things have got gotten so progressively difficult for us as a society. Molly: Mm. I mean, I couldn't agree more. it's, it's that, again, it's the what if question that I had, right? Like, Hannah: Mm. Molly: if we weren't living in X, Y, Zed society that we are now, how would the swords unfold? And the same, like, how would I connect to the Queen of Cups in a world, Hannah: Yeah. Molly: in a world where I'm allowed to, I can imagine now, like, my relationship with deep feeling is just a Five of Cups energy, is just grief. And Hannah: Yeah, yeah. Molly: it, it I can feel it, I can feel that kind of like, Hannah: Mm. Molly: that nerve ending that you were speaking about. If I allow myself to kind of be, I imagine her like kind of beckoning me into the water and I'm standing on the edge like, no, like, God, I can't step in. But Hannah: Yeah. Fail it. Fail it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Molly: in a world that allowed that kind of feeling, that didn't Hannah: Yeah. Molly: pathologise that depth of feeling, Hannah: Mm. Molly: I'm sure in that world I would be like, heck yeah, I'm running in, Hannah: Yeah. Molly: take me with you Queen of Cups. So I also have a difficult relationship with her and so I think I'd find a marriage with her quite confronting. Hannah: Yeah, I that's the thing. I can fuck the Queen of Cups. Gorgeous, right? Like I'll lay down Molly: Power. Power. Hannah: in the sand, babes. but I can't marry you because all of that kind of can you touchy feely feel your feelings for me with a Leo Stellium is just gonna run out of steam eventually. Molly: you Hannah: and and and again it is the projection. It's the fact that I as much as I have made great progress and as much as, you know, I I I feel like I have a spiritual awareness of some sort. Every day I still can't just sit with myself in the way that is modelled by especially the Queen of Cups and the peace that we see there as well as the other Queens. But I think there's a really interesting meditation there for us, especially as women and femmes, on why it is that the strange complicit sit and satisfy myself energy of the Queens is getting a little sticky for us now, right? Because it it it's in that stereotypical representation of masculine and feminine that people are then going to link to the gender binary. And one of the biggest tips I have for anyone trying to read taro is you need to dismantle the gender binary in relationship to the figures and the characters we see represented in the deck. And one of the easiest ways to do that is to lean into the idea that we all contain masculine and feminine energy, regardless of our gender expression, because it's bullshit. so masculine energy, outward focus, goal-oriented, right? Feminine energy. Receptive, knows how to read the room, waits for the right moment. Right? It's a working with a different kind of intuition and awareness. But as I said, the two have to know each other. but I I think in our stereotyping around gender and where women and femmes especially are in their relationship to terms like self-care as we watch the world burn, I I think there's a reason why sometimes we are activated by these queens and we're like, Can you get up? Right? Cause self-care's great, but what's it for, sweetheart? Cause then we're moving into the energy of kings. We're moving with confidence. We're taking the learning and the lesson of the suit out into the world. So I think for me, sometimes with my really dominant and active masculine energy, with the Queen of Cups, I'm just like, come on, I love this for you, I really do, but there comes a point It for me, again, projecting, I because I find it personally so challenging, because of everything we do have to sit with and the fear of the wave that will come, I she's one of the the queens I find it hardest to relate to and connect with at the moment. Right? Molly: Gosh, as you're speaking there, I really noticed my own like in sense of internalised misogyny there, like Hannah: Yeah. Molly: on the Queen of being like, she's so soft. why? Why do like that is, Hannah: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Molly: that is so internalised misogyny from me there. Hannah: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely, yeah. Molly: Like what like you said, what is she for? What is she doing? Like what? And if there isn't product, if there isn't productivity there, Hannah: What is she for? Yeah, 100%. Yeah, no, you're completely correct. Yeah. Yeah. Isn't pro exact what is the point of you exactly? And there's Molly: What is the point? Hannah: me talking about not connecting people's level of value to the level of productivity. But for me, it's that relationship in the yin and the yang. The two have Molly: Absolutely. Hannah: to know each other, and we'll talk about it with the hermit. Because there's I'm in my process, Five of Cups. I'm actively in the dignity, strength, and poise it takes to check in with where I am emotionally, because maintaining that stability is where I need to be right now. I'm not turned towards those other cups. I'm not in a place of what I share with who and why. But I feel like in the energy of the Queen of Cups, like I said, as an active, as a working component in the yin-yang relationship of a king, we cannot Molly: you Hannah: go all in on one, right? It's like this whole I can't afford to make healing my whole fucking identity out here in this weird white supremacist spiritual wellness thing that's being perpetuated a lot around the kind of work that we do, right? And and that's Molly: yeah. Hannah: why for me a little bit of go to the beach, sit your ass down, right, take the time that you need, but when we gr the awareness is being gifted to us for a reason. The awareness, the insight we get from practices like this, there comes a point where it's, yeah, but what I do with it matters, right? It's judgment in the major arcana. So for me, Molly: Now. Hannah: that whole idea of the Queen of Cups, absolutely don't wanna let my internalized fucking patriarchy riddled with it, g run too rampant, but for me that understanding of I don't have to pick which one to be. I don't it's Molly: Mmm. Hannah: the moon, it's the two the dog and the wolf. I don't have to pick which part of me to run with or to sit with permanently. They are points of pause connect reflect but they are not your whole personality now. Does that make sense? Molly: Hmm, it does. And I think that it makes total sense then why we would choose to fuck instead of marry in this. Hannah: Yeah, a hundred percent. I can't like I would love to sit with the Queen of Cups. I would love to speak with the softness I imagine that she is able to. I would love to be able to hold as much as she is able to. You know, often I say to people now I have to take it to the ocean. I'm furious and I'm perimenopausal, so I'm literally hot. Right? And I move to the northwest coast of Ireland and I go to the coastline. the rugged West Atlantic coast because it's vast enough and as angry as I am right now. and I feel Molly: you Hannah: like the Queen of Cups has that relationship with the water. And it's that Molly: Yeah. Hannah: aspect. Like I said, don't underestimate her as Molly: And I think that it's so interesting that like the initial response that I had Hannah: Mm. Molly: was that kind of internalised misogyny of just like, she's too soft, she's too wishy washy. But then I'm projecting kind of what I'm seeing in what I would Hannah: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, totally. Uhhuh. Molly: call like the spiritual bullshit world. But I really am reminded of the story of the selkie, know, Hannah: Mm. Molly: the wildness. within and like Hannah: Yes. Yeah. Molly: the wildness of water and it isn't. Yeah. Hannah: Well and the adaptability, the literally moving between realms. That's a shapeshifter, right? That's b that's incredible. It being very adaptable in in you know, and and we see that in the decks, the transitions again in the suits, the b the moving from fire to water or water to fire and earth and air and and considering that where that intersects I think is always really important. And the projection is it's so real and it's the hardest part of this practice. But I also believe that We bring who we are and our personal experience to the table. And that is the practice. It's connecting Molly: Holy. Hannah: and relating to people in a language that is not familiar to most, but is incredibly effective in the moment and in a in many different ways. So I used to have Molly: on Hannah: a really tough relationship with the Queen of Swords. I thought she was cold and detached, but the more I've gotten to know the Queen of Swords, especially as the archetypical widow. In the Ride-Awaite Smith. with the dark cloud in that illustration gathers, it's the idea that it's actually her experiencing cards like the Five of Cups, it's her ability to connect with her emotional awareness that sharpens the sword, that brings that crystal clarity into play, that allows her to still be kind of open and receptive, even though she has to wield the steel. So the more I've lent again then into ironically for me with the difficulty attack kind of relating emotion in the Queen of Cups, the more I've understood that underneath that tough facade that it's necessary to do what needs to be done is a deep reflective ability to align head and heart. Butterflies, crescent moons, ride-await smith, symbols of transformation, because it's transformative for us to use head and heart in alignment in order to wield the sword to make those decisions. So but the more I you gotta get you gotta sit with these queens. you gotta sit with them. Molly: We have to sit with them. And like the queen of swords for me, again, isn't it so interesting that I would say that both have been confronting for me that the queen Hannah: Yeah. Molly: of cups is too soft and the queen of swords is too cold. And my Hannah: Mm-hmm. Too hard, yeah. Molly: confrontation around the queen of swords is around my tendency to people please, right? Like she doesn't accept that people pleasing. And then we talk about, you were talking about the kind of the softness of the Queen of Swords and that connection. And Hannah: Yeah. Molly: the Queen of Cups has that wildness underneath. And so actually, Hannah: Yes. Molly: when we, when I, I'll talk about it from my perspective, when I remove that projection of too soft, too hard, I see, Hannah: Yes. Molly: I see the ways in which they are very, very similar in their. Absolutely. Hannah: Yeah. Well it's head and heart. It's it's it's all of it that's the thing, you know? It's like again, we can't really do one without the other. And I've always the way I got really friendly with the Queen of Swords and why I can fuck the Queen of Cups is because Scully from the X-Files has been my forever Queen of Swords. Right? That whole idea of practical and logical, but when given reason to deviate, can deviate and can do it from a place that is personal. and kind of emotional and and even though I get Lydia Deets, right? My life is a dark room in the Queen of Cups at times, you've also got that really imaginative, creative, intuitive, I speak to dead people energy, which is just delicious. So I love all I love all of the Queens, but that's me working to love all of these various factions of myself, of course. Molly: 100 % and that leaves you marrying the hermit. How does that feel? Hannah: Yes. Yeah, which which as today is actually my first wedding anniversary. and my husband is a beardy man who has moved with me into the middle of the bog in Ireland, in the middle of nowhere, I think is very fitting. I love the Hermit. Quality, solitude, soul searching, yes. But in the more occult interpretation of the hermit, the hermit is not alone. The hermit, with their wisdom, stands atop the mountain holding the lantern aloft to light the path for those who climb behind them. Virgos are Molly: and Hannah: the helpers of the Zodiac. Alright? But ver like hermits historically also are renegades. They are rebels. They do not care. About societal convention or expectation. They will meet but march the beat of their own drum because they need to pursue their own path, come hell or high. That's the heart of a hermit. And for me, that energy, rather than the whole I will sequester myself away to read dusty, anticated books, right? That kind of, you know, in the right-away Smith, the hermit holds aloft the light of the star. Aquarius, again, the world changers of the zodiac, the the the the idea of hope. In the darkness of the hermit held aloft there, I just think is stunning, especially now. So this idea of you can walk your own path, and in doing so, whether you intended or not, you will become a beacon for others and encourage them to do the same. Hell yeah, it's the hermit, right? But also there's a check-in for those of us again in that kind of Queen of Cups that can get a little isolated and crusty and weird. and think that actually living in a barrel away from the rest of society looks like a good idea. And I do think a little meditation on where we are in relationship to that in the hermit is necessary as well. But but for me, for for a marriage, for someone who was gonna kinda just be who they are and do what they're gonna do, which is definitely the way that it works for me, it's gotta be the hermit. Molly: I feel like that what you've just described is going to change my view on the hermit like permanently. I absolutely just loved the way that you described that and specifically because I'm I'm going to shout out another podcast that I do. So I co-host a podcast Hannah: Yeah. Molly: with a very dear friend of mine called Libby and we are huge Lord of the Rings nerds, like massive. And we host a podcast, which is a mix of tarot, depth psychology. and Lord of the Rings. And so that kind of what you're talking about, that beacon really reminds me of in like the beacons of Gondor, like in Return of the King, where like that what like Hannah: Yes, yes. Molly: that the the kind of rebelliousness of saying, no, I am going to light the beacon for others. And these people have been standing Hannah: Yes. Yeah. Molly: at these beacons for you know, that they grew up knowing that one day these beacons are going to be lit and just that little flame goes across the land and Hannah: And that but that's all we're responsible for as well, right? Because at the moment Molly: I'm wrong. Hannah: many of us are really struggling with the whole, my god, how do I create enough light? How on earth, in the face of so much darkness, can I shed enough light? Just hold your little lantern aloft. Cause if we all do the same, it's a lot of light, right? And I I do, I just I just love this idea that the hermit doesn't intend to help or to save anyone. In simply being who they are and choosing to stay true to that, inherently they will help others. Because I think it's what it is supposed to connect us and hold us all together, right? That little bit of star, that little twinkle in the darkness, that little something something. But if we are like, Okay, it's the star, I have to somehow manage and generate this energy and bring it into my readings or my work or my conversations or my community, we are gonna get tired. And we can't afford to get tired. So a little bit of I am gonna look after my little light. I tend to my little light. I keep it lit and as I and when I can I will raise it aloft. yeah, I'm gonna marry the hermit. I'm obsessed. Yeah, I know. Well witches Molly: I've got goosebumps. I've got goosebumps. Hannah: witches, you see, unfortunately we're tired. perimenopausal, most of us. Fucking furious, but we have still got our combat pants from the nineties, and we do know what needs to be done. you know, so and the keeping our little lights lit is is what needs to be done. We're in a war for hearts Molly: you Hannah: and minds. It's an attention economy. So the more that you can pay attention whilst taking care of yourself, which I think is big hermit energy, it's big Virgo energy, the the better things are gonna be for all of us. Molly: Amazing. I'm like, yeah, I'm just absolutely speechless. feel goosebumps. Hannah: Ha ha. I did drink a lot of coffee, Molly, I'm sorry. Molly: I think it's because your words are so beautiful and the passion with which you speak but also because my little Lord of the Rings nerd moment is like I'm seeing Aragorn running into like to speak to Theoden and say like the beacons are lit and that moment like I know that I cry every time because of that collective light so I'm just obsessed. Hannah: Yeah. And Tolkien was writing about fascism. Tolkien wrote Lord of the Rings about fascism, and if anybody needed a news flash on a Taro podcast, full blown fascism is here and it has fangs. So keeping the little light lit is important now and it's gonna be very important moving forward. Molly: and Hannah: And and if we wanna binge watch Lord of the Rings to keep the little light lit, do it. Right? If you wanna Molly: And... Hannah: do what I did, which is submerge yourself in forty acres of Irish bog and be pretty much unreachable. By most then do it. That's the hermit. It's I'm just gonna be me and do what I need to do. but in a way that is more conscious and connected because it just doesn't give a shit about, like I said, the expectation. Molly: No, and it's deep, it's deeply, deeply like, deeply, what is the word that I'm looking for? Like it is a resistance. It is like, that is the act of resistance, right? It's just being yourself, holding your light up. Hannah: Yes. Yes. Yes. Exactly. Molly: And that is the biggest act of resistance in a world that is... Hannah: That's it, and pay attention. They don't want you to pay attention, they want you tuned out, right? They just they want you tuned out, not tuned in, and tools like this has keep us tuned in to ourselves, with one another, to a different kind of truth than the one that has just been perpetuated in the sword suit forever and ever now. And Molly: Hmm. Hannah: we are in the midst of this incredible awakening, and conversations like this one are happening, you know, a lot. And I think we just have to remember that. And I think it's something that our hermit, if you could see a little more of their personality, would actually Pretty excited about. Molly: have two final questions for you which I'm asking everybody. Hannah: Mm. Yes, please. Mm-hmm. Molly: Out of the entire tarot deck who is the sexiest card and who is the biggest walking red flag? Hannah: the Queen of Wands is the sexiest card in the deck. I say that as someone with a Leo Stellium, of course, Sun, Mercury, and Mars in Leo. And so weirdly, when I very first picked up a deck and I started just ra you know, like we do, like, what am I doing? Cards flying everywhere. But I found the Queen of Wands and I was like, D.Va, the mood, the moment. Like, I just connected with what I was seeing and what I was reading. I guess the Lions on the Throne. And but before I understood there was a relationship to Leo and the Zodiac, and She just The Queen of Wands is here for a good time, not for a long time. Right? They they Molly: Hmm. Hannah: are like the black cat in the Rider Waite Smith illustration. My shadow self is familiar to me and it is working for me. You can't shame me. Right? I love she the The Queen of Wands is that whole lights up a room. Molly: Bye. Hannah: and I and I also like her potential to light fires. She's Molly: She's hot. She's hot. Hannah: She's just hot. I just feel like all of our queens are in that more kind of reflective, like yin, kind of feminine energy. But the one who's most likely to start some shit is definitely the Queen of Wands. So for me, very sexy Queen of Wands. Yeah. Very sexy. Molly: very sexy. The biggest red flag? Hannah: The Emperor. It's a I Molly: okay. Yeah. Hannah: mean, come on. It's I I'd love to, you know, give you something more complex. so I could wax lyrical about some aspects of a lesser-known mage minor, but in this moment, really, it's gotta be the Emperor, hasn't it? And everything the Emperor represents, because they are the patriarchal archetype in the deck. And as much as they give Ares and the ability to come out swinging, they also get pretty rigid and unmoved and dug in. And and I think a little bit less a little a little bit less of that and a little bit more of the burn it to the ground energy of Ares for me. the Emperor Molly: Bye. Hannah: is a walking red flag in the fact that they want to be in charge. they if if the if the knights are going into battle, they want to be the general, right? They need to have the overview and then the grip and the need for control and the perfectionism in the Emperor. The way that we will beat ourselves up and be tyrannical towards ourselves. I think in the energy of the emperor is the reason why that one for me absolutely always bit of a red flag. Molly: I have a terrible relationship with the Emperor. It's Hannah: Mm. Molly: getting better now as I learn to soften into the spectrum of what the Emperor represents. Hannah: but you know, I say that to people with the Emperor, you know, people will often say, you know, and I teach people like I'd this card, and I'm like, pay attention to that. Because it is alerting something in you and it's trying to say something, and so it's incredibly value, it's incredibly meaning incredibly meaningful. And I think we have to start thinking about. Matriarchal patriarchy or positive patriarchy or like the aspects of patriarchy that we did actually once have, things like integrity and honour, right? so the the idea of the emperor being able to model the protector, right? The the leader, the someone who will stand firm in protection of the Empress. I'd love to be able to relate a little bit more to that right now, but I don't, and it is for a reason, so we need to we do need to be tuned into that. Molly: Good night. Hannah: But I think on a good day, Luigi Bangioni is the Emperor. People Molly: Hmm Hannah: who are like, I fucking had it, and the energy of Ares are gonna come out swinging because they are just so incensed and passionate and motivated, but they can't help themselves. And it's very potent in the Emperor, but still kind of a red flag. Molly: Right, the great thing about this game, is, and I say this, I've said this multiple times, is I think anybody who's listening to this podcast, anybody who comes on as a guest is totally aware that the cards are layered with meaning And Hannah: Yeah. Molly: I think in my bone and mirror world, we know that. In Bona Hannah: Yeah. Yeah. Molly: and Mirror Tarot podcast, you can say, he's a red flag and I hate him and that's fine. Hannah: Yeah, yeah, but but I I love though with this practice that you we could connect in a week, a month, a year from now, pull the same cards, and my answers are likely to be completely different. Molly: I mean, I'm going to just name that this is not the 30 minute episode that I've been in. Hannah: Sorry, I'm so sorry. When you said it was a 30 minute episode, I was like, no. I feel bad for your edit. Molly: No, I... no, it's fine. I'm gonna leave it as it is because it's just incredible. Hannah: Okay, yeah, it's great. I'm really happy with you are fucking great. Yeah Yeah, I'm very glad our paths have crossed because I can Molly: Thank you, so are you. I love this. Hannah: absolutely see us connecting and collaborating and doing some stuff in the future if you would be up for Molly: RRRR Hannah: it. I think we're very aligned in terms of kind of values, beliefs, and the way that we work with Taro. And I know the cult, my online community would absolutely love you, Molly. So if they're not following you Molly: my god, stop. Hannah: already Or know about the podcast, like I'm really looking forward to crossing the streams. Molly: 100 % everyone just bear with us while we gush over each other. Hannah: Yeah. Bunny! Molly: I am going to say I like just a huge thank you for all of your wisdom, all of your honesty, your curiosity and I'm just gonna name that I'm not gonna look at the hermit in the same way again so I am deeply deeply grateful Hannah: Thank you. Thank you. Molly: for you being here. We're probably gonna spend like another 10, 15 minutes gushing over each other, but we will not subject you to that. So I'm going to Hannah: Ha ha. Molly: wish all of the listeners an absolutely wonderful day. Thank you so much for being here. Hannah: Yes, thank you so much for listening. Molly: keep getting curious of the Tarot, keep asking stupid questions and we'll see you for another episode. Bye-bye. And that is a wrap for this episode of Bona and Mira Tarot. A huge thank you and shout out to my guests for joining me and making some truly questionable life choices on behalf of the tarot. If you enjoyed this episode, I'd love it if you subscribed, left a review or shared it with someone who'd definitely have an argument with a tarot card. If you're curious about the slightly more serious side of my work, Come and find me at Bone and Mirror Tarot, where I explore tarot through depth psychology, through embodiment, and through transpersonal practice. You can find me on Instagram at at bone and mirror tarot, where I share my readings, workshops, and all the ways that I use the cards as a doorway into understanding ourselves a little more deeply. And if you're listening and thinking, I would love to play this game, I would genuinely love to have you as a guest. Just send me a message and let's make it happen. Thank you so much for listening until next time and keep laughing, keep getting curious and maybe don't push the star off a cliff.