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Transcript

1-800-1787: Society for Effecting the Abolition of the Slave Trade · 1-800-1800

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  um ring ring hello is this 1787 yeah it is welcome to 1 700
• 0:04
  1787 hello you've
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  SPEAKER_01: reached 1 800 1800 1 800 i have a burning question 1 800 1800 1 800
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_00: I have a burning question.
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  This is like going to be our most controversial episode to date
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  because we've never
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  SPEAKER_02: actually ventured into the 18th century before,
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  SPEAKER_02: even though we've always claimed it as ours.
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  SPEAKER_02: I'm scared.
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  SPEAKER_01: I'm scared of the 18th century and I'm scared of people's reaction to us.
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  SPEAKER_02: I think I have a good I have a good case to make, I think.
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  SPEAKER_02: OK, wait, what's your name, though?
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  SPEAKER_01: My name is Madeline Porcella.
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  SPEAKER_01: And I'm Mabel Taylor.
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  And this is typically 1-800-1800,
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  but this is a special episode,
• 1:00
  1-700-1700.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_02: I wish we had like a,
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  like a harpsichord or some sort of like Baroque instrument to
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  play us in our theme
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  SPEAKER_02: song instead of our normal.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, we should ask Hedo to make us that.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_01: All right, let's figure that out.
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  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
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  SPEAKER_01: Well, Madeline, can I ask you a question before we really get started?
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  SPEAKER_01: Did you learn anything this week
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  SPEAKER_02: I did.
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  So I was doing the visual glossaries for our next book and
• 1:33
  there was like this
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  SPEAKER_02: weird reference to the artist Claude Lorraine.
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  SPEAKER_02: And so I assumed it was like a painting thing,
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  but it was like about how things always look dark in Claude
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  Lorraine paintings.
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  SPEAKER_02: I've never heard that.
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  SPEAKER_02: Nor I.
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  SPEAKER_02: So then I Googled it and Claude Lorraine...
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  Well,
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  there's something called a Claude glass,
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  which is named after Claude Lorraine.
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  SPEAKER_02: And this is it.
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  SPEAKER_02: It's like a little compact and it has a darkened mirror in it.
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  And people would go and they were going to paint landscapes and
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  they would rather
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  SPEAKER_02: than looking at the landscape,
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  look in this mirror because it's easier to like draw something
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  from a flat mirror
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  SPEAKER_02: image rather than reality for whatever reason.
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  SPEAKER_02: I know that to be true, actually.
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  SPEAKER_02: And so here's a Thomas Gainsborough photo of a man.
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  SPEAKER_02: Photo.
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  SPEAKER_02: Drawing.
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  SPEAKER_01: It's like the sketchiest.
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  SPEAKER_02: It's like it's not even a realistic.
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  SPEAKER_01: I've never seen something look less like a photographer.
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  SPEAKER_01: Well, it's a photograph of the drawing.
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  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
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  SPEAKER_02: So it's a Thomas Gates Road sketch.
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  SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
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  SPEAKER_02: A man looking into a clawed glass, which is what this is called.
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  SPEAKER_02: And to draw something.
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  SPEAKER_02: And why is it darkened?
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  SPEAKER_01: Why does that help?
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  SPEAKER_02: I think so.
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  SPEAKER_02: I couldn't really tell,
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  but basically I think it's because it makes it so that there
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  are fewer colors so
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  SPEAKER_02: that when you're painting,
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  SPEAKER_02: because,
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  SPEAKER_02: you know,
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  SPEAKER_02: like impressionism hadn't been invented yet.
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  SPEAKER_02: So you're trying to simplify things and so crazy.
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  SPEAKER_02: And, um,
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  SPEAKER_02: So it makes it simpler to paint, to translate.
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  SPEAKER_02: Like when I would take drawing classes when I was in art school,
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  sometimes it would be easier to do things if you turned a photo
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  black and white,
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  SPEAKER_02: for example.
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  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_01: So you can see like the contrast and the shadows and stuff.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_02: Wow.
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  SPEAKER_01: It looks crazy.
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  SPEAKER_01: The object.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_01: Excuse me.
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  SPEAKER_01: I sneezed.
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  SPEAKER_01: What I was going to say is it looks like
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  a wicked witch's mirror i know it looks like to think of joseph
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  smith again it's
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  like scrying in a way you're like looking into this black orb
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  yeah i thought you
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  were gonna say it was the landscape it looks like a tool that
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  might be used to
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  SPEAKER_01: track the moon in some way
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  SPEAKER_01: I know.
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  SPEAKER_02: It's a really interesting object.
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  SPEAKER_02: Anyway, had no idea it existed until this week.
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  SPEAKER_01: I love it.
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  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
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  SPEAKER_01: Also,
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  some of the stuff talks about kind of the picturesque ideal in
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  the 18th century
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  SPEAKER_02: landscape,
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  SPEAKER_02: 17th and 18th century landscape painting and how like this,
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  SPEAKER_02: like it's basically a photo filter.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_01: It's,
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  SPEAKER_01: like,
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  SPEAKER_01: remember that app that was called,
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  SPEAKER_01: like,
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  SPEAKER_01: not Vrbo,
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  SPEAKER_01: because I think that was for getting Airbnbs.
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  SPEAKER_01: It was, like, VSCO, I think.
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  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, the VSCO girls.
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  SPEAKER_02: Remember them?
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  SPEAKER_02: Who all had those, like, Swedish backpacks.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, Fjallraven?
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  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_01: You mean Fjall?
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  SPEAKER_01: Yes, of course, Fjallraven.
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  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
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  SPEAKER_02: I always thought those were so fucking ugly, to be honest, but...
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  SPEAKER_01: But you had one, of course.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_01: No, I didn't.
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  SPEAKER_01: I'm just kidding.
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  SPEAKER_02: You think I ever owned a backpack after I was like eight years old?
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  SPEAKER_02: You're out of your mind.
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  SPEAKER_01: I always think a backpack is going to change my life and it never does.
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  SPEAKER_01: No.
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  SPEAKER_01: I can't use them.
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  SPEAKER_01: I find them way less comfortable than just having a tote bag.
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  SPEAKER_01: It's like way less comfortable and it's humiliating.
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  SPEAKER_01: It's so insane.
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  SPEAKER_01: It makes people look like turtles.
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  SPEAKER_02: I can only take one of those things.
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  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
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  uh okay that's my fact did you learn something this week yes i
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  did and i'm gonna
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  stop share yeah you're spoiling your notes um well something i
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  learned i wrote a
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  newsletter about but i think my newsletter will come out before
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  this episode drops
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  SPEAKER_02: i don't know at all that's baffling to me but okay
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  I mean,
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  maybe I wasn't supposed to,
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  but I wrote a newsletter for Tuesday.
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  SPEAKER_01: Perfect.
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  SPEAKER_01: And I'll synopsize it here for those who are not going to read it,
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  SPEAKER_01: which is I wrote about a concept I'm calling ancient crackers.
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  SPEAKER_01: Because, of course, it is Passover.
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  SPEAKER_01: So I was eating a lot of matzah,
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  which the Manischewitz box advertises as the world's original
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  ancient cracker,
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  SPEAKER_01: which,
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  SPEAKER_01: of course,
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  SPEAKER_01: I think is a fascinating,
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  SPEAKER_01: awesome claim.
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  SPEAKER_02: It's fascinating on many levels,
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  not least because it insinuates that there are other less
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  original ancient
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  SPEAKER_02: crackers.
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  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
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  SPEAKER_01: I think...
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  It's the combination of original and ancient,
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  which I found totally befuddling.
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  SPEAKER_01: But I think I found a good contrasting ancient cracker to discuss it via,
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  SPEAKER_01: which is less ancient,
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  SPEAKER_01: but kind of old.
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  SPEAKER_01: And that is the graham cracker.
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  And I just wanted to remind people,
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  this is something I did already know.
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  SPEAKER_01: But, you know, every time I revisit it, it's absolutely shocking.
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  SPEAKER_01: So the graham cracker was invented by a man named Sylvester Graham,
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  SPEAKER_01: who is a Presbyterian minister and a dietary reformer.
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  SPEAKER_01: And he was involved in the temperance movement.
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  SPEAKER_01: So he was against alcohol, but he took it way further.
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  SPEAKER_01: He was against one of his main enemies was alcohol.
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  like heavily ground flour like finely ground white flour well
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  there's like have you
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  there's something where like in one of the books we published
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  there was something
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  about how beer is like the leavened bread of the pharisees
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  exactly yeah so that's
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  one of the reasons why he was anti-bread was because it was
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  complicit in the
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  alcohol industry because people use brewers yeast to rise their
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  bread so that kind
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  SPEAKER_01: of also the leavening concept connects it to matzah but
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  SPEAKER_01: Also because flour, white flour was often like rotten and disgusting.
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  SPEAKER_01: And so people would adulterate it with chalk and talc and plaster,
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  SPEAKER_01: just straight up plaster or probably lead too.
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  SPEAKER_01: And so he advocated for the use of a coarser ground whole wheat flour,
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  SPEAKER_01: which he called graham flour,
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  SPEAKER_01: which is used to make graham crackers and graham bread.
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  SPEAKER_01: which is nothing like the graham crackers you have today.
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  SPEAKER_01: It had no sugar and it was not delicious or honey flavored.
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  But he believed that the graham cracker could be used to combat
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  one of humanity's
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  SPEAKER_01: biggest sins,
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  SPEAKER_01: masturbation.
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  SPEAKER_01: And by living a pure life.
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  Two less like things I could think of in the world than graham
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  crackers and masturbation.
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  SPEAKER_01: Well, exactly.
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  Have you ever had a graham cracker and then thought,
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  you know what I want to do right now?
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  SPEAKER_01: Jerk off.
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  SPEAKER_01: No.
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  SPEAKER_01: No, I guess not.
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  SPEAKER_01: I'm not really eating graham crackers that often.
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  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I've been eating a lot of graham crackers.
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  SPEAKER_01: Seriously masturbating.
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  SPEAKER_01: So for those who weren't familiar, that is really all I have to say.
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  SPEAKER_01: Graham crackers combat masturbation.
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  SPEAKER_02: Do you talk about tack at all?
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I do talk about hard tack.
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  I talk about like all these different sort of romantic ideals
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  of carbs that I've
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  SPEAKER_01: always wanted to eat.
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  SPEAKER_01: Like I've always been like a hoe cake sounds way better than a pancake.
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  And how I've always wanted to eat a hard tack biscuit softened
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  by ocean water like a sailor.
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  SPEAKER_01: And there's just all these foods that you encounter in our novels.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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  which there's a reason nobody eats them anymore or people have
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  people were not
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  eating good you know what i had for lunch today though which is
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  was sort of 19th
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  century can of sardines and some some rye crackers but canned
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  food is that's true
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  is a 19th century invention but it's a later one and like the
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  reason people are
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  eating hardtack biscuits is because before the rise of canned
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  food the hardtack
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  biscuit basically stayed pretty good for months at a time well
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  i think it's sort of
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  SPEAKER_02: like
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  SPEAKER_02: You know,
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  SPEAKER_02: in Gilmore Girls,
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  SPEAKER_02: when they're like,
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  we won't bring Luke's burgers to the movies because they're
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  good and then they get
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  SPEAKER_02: worse.
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  SPEAKER_02: We bring the bad burgers because they were bad to start with.
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  SPEAKER_02: Hardtack is like bad to start with.
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  SPEAKER_02: It never gets worse because it was never good.
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  SPEAKER_01: That's kind of a lesson for us all.
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  SPEAKER_01: If you're never good, then you never get worse.
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  SPEAKER_01: That's true.
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  SPEAKER_02: All right.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_02: Should we learn about 1787?
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_02: I would love to learn about it.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_02: So...
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  I feel like let's think back to when I did 1865 and I forgot
• 10:07
  when I was coming up
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_02: with the episode idea that that's when the Civil War ended.
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_02: Something similar happened when I was researching this episode,
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  SPEAKER_02: which I actually literally had no idea about.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_02: Well, should I make a guess?
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_01: Well, is that when the Constitution?
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
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  SPEAKER_01: I got it.
• 10:28
  i've thought about this i just think that like early american
• 10:30
  history is confusing
• 10:31
  there's this obsession with 1776 but like not that much
• 10:34
  happened in that year from
• 10:35
  what i can tell do you know when we had a president for the
• 10:38
  first time like a
• 10:39
  decade later 1789 that's insane how are they it was truly just
• 10:44
  like a confederation
• 10:45
  of states before that right yes was it called the federalist
• 10:48
  papers before the
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_01: constitution
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_02: No,
• 10:51
  the Federalist Papers were a series of essays that the founding
• 10:55
  fathers wrote in
• 10:57
  order to convince people that we needed a constitution that
• 11:01
  strengthened the
• 11:01
  federal government as opposed to just remaining a confederation
• 11:05
  of states.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, okay.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_02: And the Federalist Paper started being published in October of 1787.
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  SPEAKER_02: And this conference also started in the fall,
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  SPEAKER_02: or the Constitutional Convention also started in the fall.
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  SPEAKER_02: And what they wanted was strong but limited federal government,
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_02: three branches for checks and balances of power,
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_02: and separation of powers to curb extremism,
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_02: which,
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_02: lol.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_02: I know.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, all of this is just so depressing to hear about.
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_01: I know.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_01: I know.
• 11:33
  Now we just have a president who's like,
• 11:34
  I need $1 trillion to bomb children.
• 11:38
  a day a day um yeah well if only the founding fathers could see
• 11:45
  what they had
• 11:46
  wrought they're rolling in their graves right now i think i'm
• 11:50
  like becoming a
• 11:51
  states rights person i don't know about that in the sense that
• 11:56
  like he couldn't be
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_02: doing that in iran if there was no strong federal government
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
• 12:05
  I guess I'm just also thinking like the Supreme Court this week
• 12:10
  just said states
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_01: have the right to say that conversion therapy is cool.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_01: So it just goes both ways.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_01: It's just like, that's, yeah.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_02: What can we do?
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_02: There's no answer anymore.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_01: No, it's a lose-lose.
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_02: What if there weren't states rates or federal rates?
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_01: Then I think that's anarchy.
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_01: I would like that.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_01: I think you would too.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_02: But people would have to be on good behavior.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_01: And that's where manners come in.
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_02: And of course, Graham crackers come in.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_01: No rules, no government, but tons of graham crackers.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_01: I think graham crackers because of the current constitutional crisis.
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_01: Well,
• 12:51
  what I was thinking and what I wrote about a little bit is that
• 12:54
  Sylvester Graham is
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_01: really the RFK Jr.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_01: of the 19th century.
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_02: What about like the Kellogg?
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, well, Graham came first.
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, really?
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, Kellogg was inspired by Graham.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_02: That's cute.
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_02: So in addition to the Federalist Papers being published in 1787,
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_02: just kind of generally,
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_02: there's a rise in print
• 13:14
  culture there's cheaper paper and so you get you start having
• 13:18
  like in the late 18th
• 13:20
  century pamphlets magazines fashion plates political cartoons
• 13:24
  circulating a lot
• 13:25
  more freely than they previously had been and not in 1787 in
• 13:31
  particular but like in
• 13:32
  France for example in the 1780s and 1790s you get these like
• 13:36
  insane pornographic
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_02: political cartoons about Marie Antoinette that like help sort of
• 13:42
  fuel the fire that leads to the revolution there are some crazy
• 13:46
  ones of her like
• 13:47
  splayed i was like we should do it that's its own episode yeah
• 13:52
  um because there's
• 13:53
  also the fashion plates that like that are post-revolution the
• 13:58
  empire style fashion
• 13:59
  plates that inspire baudelaire to write the painter of modern
• 14:02
  life have you been
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_01: reading the princess casamisama yet no
• 14:08
  OK,
• 14:08
  well,
• 14:08
  we're book clubbing it in two weeks,
• 14:09
  but there's a good my best.
• 14:12
  There's a good section about fashion or there's just like a
• 14:14
  good fashion plate
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_01: theme,
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_01: which I look forward to you encountering.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_01: I can't wait.
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_02: I remember you once said you wanted to learn more about music.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_02: So I just 1787 Mozart's working hard.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_02: Wow.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_02: That's helpful.
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_02: I think that's when Don Giovanni comes out.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_02: There's a symphony.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_02: He's got multiple projects on deck.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_01: He did so much in his brief life.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_02: Uh-huh.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_02: And also Cricket is founded.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know why I tell you things like this.
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_02: It's founded.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_01: The first Cricket club is founded.
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_01: That reminds me
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_01: Well,
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_01: so for the audience,
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_01: when we are publishing books for Mandy Lyon,
• 14:59
  we will each read the book and then trade off versions of the
• 15:03
  book with our
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_01: comments in it.
• 15:04
  And so sometimes I'll like remember something that confused
• 15:06
  Madeline or perhaps
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_01: she'll sometimes remember something that confused me.
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_01: I know what you're going to say.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_01: And in the Hill of Dreams,
• 15:13
  there's a section where he's talking about like points scored
• 15:17
  in cricket and which
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_01: I just like Googled the phrase and was like,
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_01: okay,
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_01: that's a cricket thing.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_01: But Madeline made this comment.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_01: I remember it was like, I just can't.
• 15:25
  or something like that i'm like well you can because it you
• 15:29
  could just google it
• 15:30
  but it was like i remember there were like periods and weird
• 15:34
  places in it and i was
• 15:35
  like i'm not engaging you were like i'm throwing in the towel
• 15:39
  yeah um yeah i was
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_02: like sports no thanks no thank you even if they're literary yeah um
• 15:48
  okay also the mechanical turk is touring europe fun should we
• 15:52
  tell people what that
• 15:53
  is yeah which is basically it was the first like computer chess
• 15:58
  machine and they
• 16:00
  they convinced people that they had this automaton who was
• 16:02
  dressed as an ottoman
• 16:04
  who would be able to beat anyone at chess but really there was
• 16:07
  a small chess master
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_02: inside who was a human who would play you and win every time um
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_02: It's just the best ever.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_02: Good prank.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_02: The HMS bounty set sail,
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_02: so it'd be two years before the famous mutiny on the HMS bounty,
• 16:24
  but it was going to transport red fruit plants from Tahiti to
• 16:30
  the Caribbean.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_02: In a pre-Wardian case world, no less.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_02: In a pre-Wardian case world.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_02: First ships going to Australia.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_02: You see where I'm going?
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_02: There's a...
• 16:43
  empire happening yeah they're ships they're ships sailing 1787
• 16:48
  is is sea oriented
• 16:52
  it's very nautical it's a nautical year um and william bradley
• 16:58
  is born who was
• 16:59
  britain's tallest man ever still clocking in to this day i
• 17:04
  think clocking in at
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_02: seven foot nine that's really tall that's too tall
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_01: I just imagine like when you're like, I'm five foot five, good height.
• 17:15
  And then your body's like five foot eight,
• 17:18
  five foot 11,
• 17:19
  six foot four,
• 17:20
  so on and so forth.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_01: Seven foot nine is two and a half feet taller than me.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_02: It's a lot.
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_02: Basically double or 1.5 times my height.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_01: That's so cool that someone could be double your height.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_02: No, it's not double.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_02: I guess double would be like 10 and a half feet, but still.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_01: It's nearly there.
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_02: It's nearly there.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_01: That's what I got.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for painting that picture.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_02: For context.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_02: In your Claude glass.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_02: In my Claude glass.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, I was like, I thought you were talking about AI.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_02: I was like, no.
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_02: I'm like not familiar with Claude.
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_02: I haven't met her.
• 18:00
  I know,
• 18:00
  but something else recently,
• 18:02
  someone said Claude and I was so confused.
• 18:05
  I saw a play where someone talked about Claude and I didn't get
• 18:08
  it for a little while.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_01: I thought they were talking about a person named Claude.
• 18:13
  I've been getting a lot of ads for Claude,
• 18:15
  so I think that's what it's talking about.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_02: I do kind of think the ads for Claude are pretty classy.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_02: It's sort of like the Mac PC ad game that used to be.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_02: The ChatGPT ads are so fucking weird.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_01: But they're kind of cute, too.
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_02: No, but they're like, I don't know what spaghetti is.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_02: It's just the complete infantilization of all people.
• 18:37
  yeah the clawed ads are like we're contemplating stuff like
• 18:40
  we're thinking yeah and
• 18:42
  they're kind of like beautiful and cinematic yeah the chat gpt
• 18:46
  ones i'm like get a
• 18:47
  fucking life i mean like some one of the ads is people sort of
• 18:51
  stranded in a mud
• 18:52
  bank looking how to change their tire and i'm like okay well
• 18:56
  can i say something
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_01: though yeah call triple five years ago five years ago before all this
• 19:02
  how would you have dealt with that i'd google it or call my dad
• 19:05
  google it it's like
• 19:07
  it's not like the information wasn't accessible you would
• 19:10
  google it on your phone
• 19:11
  yeah maybe i was recent this morning i was googling how to fix
• 19:15
  something and i
• 19:15
  couldn't figure it out but maybe i should actually ask like
• 19:18
  look it up on youtube
• 19:19
  it's like youtube videos didn't help me but i don't think the
• 19:23
  information is out
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_02: there like you don't need gpt to tell you no
• 19:29
  um i just once my brother asked it what a what a um shallot was
• 19:35
  at the grocery he
• 19:36
  took a picture of all the onions at the grocery store and said
• 19:38
  which of these is a
• 19:39
  shallot and it's like just google shallot wait he didn't know
• 19:44
  what a shallot was or
• 19:45
  he was testing chat gpt no he didn't know what it was we sent
• 19:48
  him to the store to
• 19:48
  get shallots and he didn't know what he should get well he was
• 19:53
  clearly not the
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_02: right guy for the job no never send a man to do a woman's job
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_02: So the main thing that I want to talk about in 1787,
• 20:02
  which might seem insignificant in the context of like Australia
• 20:06
  starting and the
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_02: U.S.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_02: Constitution,
• 20:12
  is a small ceramic medallion that was first produced in 1787 by
• 20:17
  Josiah Wedgwood,
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_02: who we've talked about before,
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_02: but I'll refresh everyone's memories.
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_02: in a bit,
• 20:22
  that depicts a kneeling man in chains with his hands raised to
• 20:26
  the heavens
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_02: inscribed with the phrase,
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_02: am I not a man and a brother?
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_02: Are you familiar with this work?
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_02: Deep, deeply, deeply.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_02: So this medallion was produced
• 20:41
  in 1787 coincided with the founding of the Society for
• 20:45
  Affecting the Abolition of
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_02: the Slave Trade in Britain.
• 20:49
  And the image was taken from one of their pamphlets and turned
• 20:54
  into the medallion
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_02: motif by one of Wedgwood's most famous sculptors,
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_02: William Hackwood.
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_02: Great name.
• 21:07
  It's unknown how many were produced,
• 21:09
  but some estimates are as high as 15,000.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_02: And you'll find these medallions once you know what they are everywhere.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_02: They're in like every major museum collection.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_02: There's usually multiples.
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_02: They were produced in different colors.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_02: It's a kind of wide circulating object.
• 21:30
  have you ever seen one like in an antique context like at a
• 21:34
  store i kind of feel
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_02: like i have but i'm not having a specific memory why have you
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_01: No, but I was thinking it's interesting.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_01: It's just interesting when there's like a type of thing from the past.
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_02: I also think it's Wedgwood's interesting because so who Wedgwood is,
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_02: I guess I'll just explain,
• 21:53
  is he was a man from Stoke-on-Trent who lifted himself out of
• 21:59
  the mud and turned
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_02: that mud into money by starting a...
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_02: Mabel just nodded.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 22:07
  damn right he did damn right he did by by turning his or by
• 22:14
  creating this ceramics
• 22:15
  manufacturing that not only was creating sort of desirable
• 22:21
  ceramics in a way that
• 22:24
  was like for the populace I don't know how I'm saying this like
• 22:27
  mass producing but
• 22:28
  he was he was innovating he was like one of the first people to
• 22:31
  use marketing so he
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_02: became massive he invented the catalog I believe
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_02: He invented the catalog and I think he once told me he invented BOGO.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I was just going to say he invented BOGO.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_01: He also invented like you could return things.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_01: I'm pretty sure if you weren't pleased with the product,
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_01: you could send it back,
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_01: which is legendary in my life.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_02: That's true.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_02: But do you not think that before,
• 22:54
  like if we were just two people who had dealings with each
• 22:57
  other and I wasn't
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_02: pleased with it and I came back and like braided you,
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_01: you wouldn't take it back.
• 23:01
  Maybe the real innovation is that he would ship people things
• 23:04
  and they could send
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_01: it back in the mail.
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_01: It was kind of the like the like, quote, hassle free return type thing.
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_01: You don't have to like beg.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah,
• 23:11
  like it's sort of the difference between the way I interact
• 23:14
  with shops and the way
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_02: my grandma does where she like beats them into submission.
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_02: I can't wait to be like that soon.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_02: I once watched my grandma at Macy's,
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_02: not like a small store,
• 23:27
  convinced them that because they didn't have a sweater that was
• 23:30
  on sale in her
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_02: size,
• 23:32
  they should give her a full price brand new season sweater that
• 23:36
  was similar looking
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_02: for the discounted price.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_02: She's so right.
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_01: They did it.
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_01: And they did it.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_01: They did it.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_01: That's insane.
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_01: I got to try that one out soon.
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_02: she just was like unwilling to comprehend that they wouldn't do it.
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_01: Well, it's important to ask for the discounts that you deserve.
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_01: Remember that folks.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_02: It's a lesson we all should learn,
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_02: but anyway,
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_02: so Josiah Wedgwood founds the Wedgwood company in 1759 and he,
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_02: his major innovations are Jasper wear,
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_02: which is a new kind of clay body.
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_02: And remember the word body.
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_01: Cause that will be important.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_02: And he,
• 24:18
  um he he innovates all of these practices in marketing and he
• 24:22
  also innovates all
• 24:23
  these labor practices which i will talk about obviously in
• 24:26
  great detail later um
• 24:28
  including basically inventing the first punch time card but
• 24:33
  you're saying for some
• 24:35
  reason how would that be a labor practice he was like punching
• 24:40
  his employees
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_02: You know, when you punch in, punch out.
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_02: I've actually never used one of these.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_02: It's sort of antiquated.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_02: They don't really have those anymore.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_01: But I think they do still at like.
• 24:51
  Some places like at the place where I work,
• 24:52
  you swipe in and out people who have to do that.
• 24:55
  yeah i've only ever had to like fill out a physical time card
• 24:59
  i've never actually
• 25:00
  had to like punch in and punch out but whatever um and uh also
• 25:06
  like essentially
• 25:08
  inventing a precursor to the assembly line like the way that
• 25:11
  his ceramics were
• 25:12
  produced is that there was no one person besides him who had
• 25:16
  kind of a complete
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_02: start to finish vision like idea of what was going to happen to a product
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_02: Um,
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_02: and so Wedgwood was,
• 25:29
  was an abolitionist and joined very early the society for
• 25:35
  affecting the abolition
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_02: of slavery.
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_02: Once again, these 18th century names are like, this will keep happening.
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_02: I'm like,
• 25:41
  you could not think of a better name than the society for
• 25:44
  affecting the abolition
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_02: of slavery.
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_02: I've never heard affecting used that way.
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_02: It's like unreal.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_02: Um,
• 25:53
  And so I had made a note to talk about this object a long time
• 25:57
  ago because I love it.
• 25:59
  And I think it's so interesting how much you can pile into a
• 26:04
  conversation about it,
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_02: which will test the limits of today.
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_02: And one of my favorite things to read about it in is Iris Moon's book,
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_02: which is called Melancholy Wedgwood.
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_02: Iris Moon is a curator at the Met.
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_02: Shout out.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_02: And...
• 26:22
  Melancholy Wedgwood is an experimental biography where Anne
• 26:28
  Moon writes sort of
• 26:29
  challenging these narratives of Wedgwood as this British hero
• 26:32
  of industrialism,
• 26:33
  a self-made man and like the sort of progress driven narrative
• 26:38
  of the Industrial
• 26:39
  Revolution that Wedgwood's life is usually co-opted to tell and
• 26:44
  instead provides
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_02: this framework of melancholy.
• 26:48
  to access both Wedgwood's more complicated story which I'm not
• 26:52
  really going to get
• 26:53
  into very much um but he had a very mentally ill son he himself
• 26:59
  was disabled there
• 27:01
  are all of these things that are like if mentioned only
• 27:05
  mentioned in passing in his
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_02: biographies generally well I think um
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know if you're going to get into this, but I'll just say it.
• 27:13
  I was rereading Iris' introduction and I thought an interesting
• 27:17
  point she made was
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_01: what she's doing is kind of working against or...
• 27:22
  critiquing the sort of canonization of Wedgwood which happened
• 27:25
  at the end of the
• 27:26
  19th century by like Victorian historians who were like looking
• 27:30
  back to a form of
• 27:31
  like an early form of industrial capitalism that Wedgwood
• 27:33
  represented before things
• 27:35
  got horrible like yeah before there was pollution and England
• 27:38
  was blighted and he
• 27:39
  destroyed the environment and in Stoke on Trent all these
• 27:42
  things I just hadn't
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_01: really thought about it that way
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, no, that's a good point.
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_02: And she's doing that basically by saying,
• 27:49
  what if instead of lionizing someone who was working before all
• 27:53
  of these bad things
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_02: happened,
• 27:55
  we look at it from the perspective of knowing the result of
• 27:59
  that history and
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_02: reading.
• 28:01
  back into it this feeling of melancholy that was such a um like
• 28:06
  sort of a mood that
• 28:08
  colored so much of 18th century artistic production and is also
• 28:15
  something that kind
• 28:17
  of would resonate with us today thinking back to this time like
• 28:20
  as kind of a
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_02: nostalgic before and us living in the sort of devastated after mm-hmm
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_02: I'm living in the devastated after.
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_02: We're all living in the devastated after.
• 28:33
  And one of the things that she kind of uses as a metaphor
• 28:37
  throughout the book is
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_02: this question of like clay body versus physical body.
• 28:41
  And so in the first chapter,
• 28:43
  that refers to like Wedgwood's own disability.
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_02: He was an amputee.
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_02: I didn't know that.
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_02: I didn't know.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's like not talked about.
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_02: What was amputated?
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_02: Leg.
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_02: Leg.
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_01: I saw,
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_01: I heard her describe him as disabled in the intro,
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_01: but I didn't get to the point where she said what it was.
• 29:02
  Yeah,
• 29:03
  he lost a leg because of like,
• 29:05
  I forget,
• 29:05
  like a nerve illness or something maybe.
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_02: And...
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_02: She writes in the intro,
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_02: there's this quote,
• 29:13
  who has the right to a life that can be told in chronological
• 29:16
  progression?
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_02: What does one do with the narrative leftovers?
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_02: To borrow an expression from the Staffordshire Potters,
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_02: the quote,
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_02: wasters,
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_02: the heaps of imperfect,
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_02: broken ceramics that lay discarded in the back of the workshops,
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_02: inadvertently left behind as the fragile remains of the past.
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_01: It's pretty.
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_01: I wrote my undergrad thesis about ceramics and a ceramicist,
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_01: and there's a lot of amazing books about ceramics,
• 29:41
  and I think there's just something so ripe for metaphor in
• 29:45
  talking about ceramics,
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_01: and I feel like she does a really beautiful job of that as well.
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, she does.
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_02: And to the point of the Slave Medallion,
• 29:55
  I guess there's a lot of intersecting things that I would like
• 29:59
  to talk about in it.
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_02: So one...
• 30:02
  is like thinking about kind of this idea of the body and the
• 30:05
  way that black
• 30:06
  visibility and black erasure are functioning in this medallion
• 30:11
  and then also like
• 30:13
  because of the way this medallion works in sort of other
• 30:16
  representations that were
• 30:17
  put out by both artists of the time and the abolitionists who
• 30:21
  were really,
• 30:22
  really strategic about what imagery and what story they were
• 30:26
  telling and what they
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_02: were using.
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_02: We'll talk about the famous image of the slave ship Brooks.
• 30:32
  I also want to talk about the process of abolition and kind of
• 30:40
  labor and narrative,
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_02: all kinds of things.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_02: Let's start with the story of the British slave trade.
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_02: Tell it to me.
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_02: So like France,
• 30:55
  slavery in Britain kind of functioned in this weird way because
• 30:59
  it was always sort
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_02: of held elsewhere.
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_02: So in both mainland France and Britain,
• 31:07
  There were some enslaved people who were brought to work as
• 31:11
  house servants and paid
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_02: a meager wage.
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_02: But for the most part,
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_02: what the slave trade was,
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_02: was taking enslaved people from Africa to the Americas,
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_02: and they were not passing through British soil,
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_02: even though
• 31:23
  britain controlled i think by the end of the 18th century like
• 31:28
  50 of the slave
• 31:30
  trade um so they're they're making this huge profit from it and
• 31:37
  i think it creates
• 31:39
  this weird um like cognitive dissonance which we've talked
• 31:45
  about before with
• 31:46
  mansfield park and that will come up again in this i knew you
• 31:49
  were going to bring
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_01: up mansfield park
• 31:51
  i know i've been like seeing a lot of discourse about slavery
• 31:55
  in mansfield park i
• 31:55
  don't really think there's like a decisive answer but there's
• 31:57
  some interesting
• 31:58
  stuff that i found that i think sort of puts uh some beans in
• 32:06
  the pro austin was
• 32:07
  talking about slavery jar put some beans on it um so yeah it's
• 32:14
  happening elsewhere
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_02: so
• 32:16
  I think historians estimate that around 10 to 20,000 black
• 32:20
  people were living in
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_02: Britain at any point in the 18th century,
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_02: and many but not all of those had at one point been enslaved.
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_02: But
• 32:31
  throughout like that compare that number with the fact that
• 32:36
  throughout the 17th and
• 32:38
  18th centuries 12 to 15 million men women and children were
• 32:42
  enslaved and trafficked
• 32:43
  from Africa across the Atlantic to the Americas which is just
• 32:47
  like a massive number
• 32:48
  yeah and then that's not actually counting I don't think people
• 32:55
  who were born into
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_02: slavery yeah
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_02: It's just mind-boggling, really.
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_01: It's mind-boggling.
• 33:01
  I guess,
• 33:02
  and I know I've talked about this book,
• 33:03
  The Zorg,
• 33:04
  like 10 times on this podcast.
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_01: I want to talk about The Zorg.
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_01: I guess not to put the cart before the horse,
• 33:10
  but I think that what that book does and what I think Iris is
• 33:13
  also doing is putting
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_01: such a human...
• 33:16
  perspective on something that's kind of abstract,
• 33:19
  which is the slave trade.
• 33:21
  Every single one of those 12 to 15 million people you're
• 33:23
  talking about had to make
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_01: it from Africa to the Americas,
• 33:26
  which is a completely physically arduous and horrifying inhuman
• 33:31
  experience.
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_01: And it's just like, that's, what's hard to comprehend.
• 33:35
  It's like,
• 33:35
  that's so many stories of people being brutalized and killed
• 33:39
  and abused.
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_01: It's just, that's, what's impossible.
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_02: And I think there was given like,
• 33:43
  SPEAKER_02: I think there was like a 30% survival rate or sorry,
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_02: a 30% mortality rate.
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_02: Like,
• 33:49
  It was so arduous that a lot of,
• 33:54
  not most,
• 33:55
  but 30% is huge percentage of people to not make it.
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_02: It's such a waste of human life.
• 34:01
  And if you think about the scale of this,
• 34:05
  like 30% of 15 million,
• 34:08
  it's just like...
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I can't do that math, but it's a lot.
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_02: It's incomprehensible.
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_02: And so Britain,
• 34:20
  most of the ships that are leaving Britain to go to Africa to
• 34:26
  participate,
• 34:27
  SPEAKER_02: people talk about the triangle trade.
• 34:29
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like people know what that is, right?
• 34:31
  SPEAKER_01: Basically,
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_02: enslaved people would be bought from African tribes,
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_02: brought to the Americas,
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_02: sold into slavery.
• 34:42
  The same ships would be loaded up with raw materials that were
• 34:45
  produced with slave
• 34:46
  SPEAKER_02: labor in the Americas,
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_02: go back to Britain.
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_02: Those ships
• 34:51
  um raw goods would be processed in britain which is why britain
• 34:54
  has like a famous
• 34:55
  textile industry because cotton was coming from the colonies
• 34:57
  back to england and
• 34:59
  then the finished goods would be packed on the boat and then
• 35:04
  shipped back out on
• 35:06
  these ships that were gonna eventually empty themselves on
• 35:08
  their way and then fill
• 35:10
  up with enslaved people to do this triangle trade and liverpool
• 35:15
  was the main port
• 35:16
  SPEAKER_02: out of which um these ships left in england and
• 35:22
  uh it's it's estimated that approximately three to 3.5 million
• 35:29
  people were sailed
• 35:31
  across the middle passage on ships that departed from liverpool
• 35:36
  um and essentially
• 35:40
  here can i show you there's also i there's an image like so
• 35:43
  liverpool i've never
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_02: been to liverpool have you no that's where the beetles are from right yep
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_02: Apparently, this legacy is everywhere in Liverpool.
• 35:53
  This is a relief that's carved on the side of Martin's Bank
• 35:59
  building in Liverpool.
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 36:01
  And it's a relief that shows two,
• 36:05
  it says enslaved people on the caption,
• 36:07
  but they're children.
• 36:09
  And one is holding these navigation tools and one is holding an
• 36:13
  anchor and then
• 36:14
  SPEAKER_02: they have kind of like bundles.
• 36:16
  And so it's like referencing the middle passage in this kind of
• 36:20
  bank building ornament.
• 36:23
  SPEAKER_02: It's really disturbing.
• 36:24
  SPEAKER_01: You know what this is making me think about?
• 36:27
  I went to go see at the Bard Graduate Center where we went to
• 36:31
  grad school.
• 36:31
  SPEAKER_01: There's an exhibition about Violette Le Duc,
• 36:33
  SPEAKER_01: who is the person in the 19th century who restored Notre Dame.
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_01: How was that?
• 36:37
  SPEAKER_01: It was really cool.
• 36:38
  And the show kind of peaks with the final stage of his career
• 36:45
  where he was this guy
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_01: who was very into sort of like French medieval history and continuity.
• 36:51
  SPEAKER_01: But then his whole career became basically about propagating like
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_01: racist science and insane eugenicist ideas.
• 37:01
  And just that photograph of the stone carvings in Liverpool
• 37:06
  just made me think
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_01: about like the other things that people put on buildings,
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_01: which are often like gargoyles.
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_01: And Violet Leduc was like putting gargoyles on
• 37:15
  this major icon in Paris but then at the same time like had
• 37:19
  this book that he wrote
• 37:20
  which is in the exhibition which is about like how people look
• 37:23
  like the houses that
• 37:25
  they build so there's like a crazy section about like pagodas
• 37:28
  and Asian people and
• 37:29
  like just just the craziest theories of human life that
• 37:35
  continues in France I mean
• 37:37
  I guess the Duke is working into the 19th century but there
• 37:40
  people in France are
• 37:41
  SPEAKER_02: talking about that shit so late and
• 37:44
  like I feel like they're still talking about that they might
• 37:47
  still be talking about
• 37:48
  it I haven't talked to them in a while but there's like um it's
• 37:53
  not quite the same
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_02: but it is a little bit and I think it's Garnier in
• 37:59
  SPEAKER_02: And the 1867 World's Fair makes this like,
• 38:03
  SPEAKER_02: I could be wrong about the architect,
• 38:05
  SPEAKER_02: but makes this row.
• 38:07
  SPEAKER_02: It's a street.
• 38:08
  SPEAKER_02: It's like the street of progress, basically.
• 38:10
  SPEAKER_02: And so each house on the street represents a different national identity,
• 38:14
  but it builds up in an argument until you get to the French
• 38:18
  buildings at the end of
• 38:19
  SPEAKER_02: it.
• 38:19
  SPEAKER_01: Mm hmm.
• 38:20
  and i feel like what we're talking about is these these people
• 38:23
  who are understood
• 38:24
  to be like progressive figures in european history people who
• 38:28
  like moved the world
• 38:29
  forward but what i think the slave medallion and wedgewood this
• 38:34
  alternative history
• 38:35
  of wedgewood's contributions like it just reveal as iris moon
• 38:40
  is talking about that
• 38:40
  SPEAKER_01: you can't really tell like a chronological or progressive story that like
• 38:44
  as you move forward you're also moving backward and like all
• 38:47
  these things are still
• 38:48
  intersecting in real time I don't know yeah and like one of the
• 38:52
  things I really was
• 38:53
  like thinking about a lot when I was kind of putting this
• 38:55
  together and like reading
• 38:57
  SPEAKER_02: the story is that I feel like because I read a lot of
• 39:03
  SPEAKER_02: like material history and like Marxist stuff.
• 39:08
  So much is about like the alienation of labor and in practice,
• 39:14
  like in production context.
• 39:18
  And there's actually also something really insidious happening
• 39:22
  with the way the
• 39:22
  SPEAKER_02: slave trade functions particularly.
• 39:24
  And I also think so much conversation about the slave trade is
• 39:27
  in the American
• 39:28
  SPEAKER_02: context or kind of like the Atlantic world.
• 39:31
  broadly context in Britain and France in particular there's
• 39:35
  like this insidious
• 39:36
  thing where basically it takes a while for abolition to gain
• 39:41
  momentum because this
• 39:42
  cruelty that's happening is like abstracted and that it's
• 39:45
  always somewhere else and
• 39:47
  so even if you hear about it it's kind of like the way that
• 39:50
  growing up in America
• 39:51
  SPEAKER_02: you relate to the rest of the world which is that like
• 39:55
  SPEAKER_02: oh, that sounds really bad over there.
• 39:58
  SPEAKER_02: And you're not forced to actually reckon with what's going on.
• 40:03
  And then you have this kind of like sickening dynamic where
• 40:07
  basically the only
• 40:09
  SPEAKER_02: interaction that people actually have with
• 40:13
  enslaved labor is enjoying the products of it yeah i was
• 40:18
  thinking about this too do
• 40:21
  you want to say more about it yeah which is well iris moon
• 40:25
  talks about how these
• 40:27
  SPEAKER_01: slave
• 40:27
  SPEAKER_01: medallions,
• 40:28
  SPEAKER_01: which we're going to talk about in more detail,
• 40:29
  SPEAKER_01: were handed out and given often to children.
• 40:31
  And she quotes this interaction where someone gives the
• 40:35
  Wedgwood medallion to a
• 40:36
  SPEAKER_01: child who then says,
• 40:37
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not going to take sugar in my tea.
• 40:39
  SPEAKER_01: And the way that,
• 40:41
  SPEAKER_01: yeah,
• 40:42
  SPEAKER_01: the fruits of this horrific trade are sweet things and soft things,
• 40:46
  SPEAKER_01: like sugar and cotton.
• 40:48
  SPEAKER_01: Sugar, coffee, tobacco.
• 40:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, like pleasurable things.
• 40:51
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 40:52
  And then what I think worked probably about the slave medallion
• 40:55
  is that it puts a person in
• 40:58
  who's suffering and who's laboring back into the space of the
• 41:02
  like genteel English home.
• 41:05
  SPEAKER_01: Like you're wearing the slave medallion in your hair or on your necklace.
• 41:08
  And at the same time that you're like putting a lump of sugar
• 41:10
  into your tea.
• 41:11
  And so it reminds you that there's like an enslaved body
• 41:14
  participating in everything.
• 41:16
  And then you're like drinking from a cup made of the same
• 41:18
  material as the man on
• 41:20
  SPEAKER_01: the medallion,
• 41:21
  SPEAKER_01: you know?
• 41:22
  yeah it's like so there's because the other thing that I was
• 41:25
  thinking about the
• 41:26
  sugar thing is crazy to think about and then cotton this is
• 41:30
  also the period where
• 41:31
  fashion starts like becoming a real industry and one of the
• 41:39
  things about this
• 41:40
  medallion that was written at the time was that basically
• 41:44
  people would have get the
• 41:45
  medallion and then mount it in gold and wear it as a pin or
• 41:47
  wear it as a hair
• 41:48
  SPEAKER_02: ornament or something and there's this quote
• 41:52
  Some had them inlaid in gold in the lids of their snuff boxes
• 41:55
  of the ladies,
• 41:56
  SPEAKER_02: some wore them in bracelets,
• 41:57
  and others had them fitted up in an ornamental manner as pins
• 42:02
  for their hair.
• 42:03
  SPEAKER_02: At length,
• 42:04
  SPEAKER_02: the taste for wearing them became general and thus a fashion,
• 42:07
  SPEAKER_02: which usually confines itself to worthless things,
• 42:10
  was seen for once in an honorable office of promoting the cause
• 42:13
  of justice,
• 42:14
  SPEAKER_02: humanity,
• 42:14
  SPEAKER_02: and freedom.
• 42:16
  SPEAKER_02: And so it's,
• 42:17
  SPEAKER_02: like,
• 42:17
  SPEAKER_02: this kind of implication that you can be,
• 42:21
  SPEAKER_02: like,
• 42:22
  SPEAKER_02: that they can,
• 42:23
  SPEAKER_02: well,
• 42:24
  SPEAKER_02: it's a double-edged sword because it's,
• 42:25
  SPEAKER_02: like,
• 42:26
  SPEAKER_02: on the one hand,
• 42:26
  SPEAKER_02: you can,
• 42:27
  SPEAKER_02: like,
• 42:27
  SPEAKER_02: subvert fashion into something that's a progressive cause.
• 42:30
  SPEAKER_02: And on the other hand,
• 42:32
  you are kind of making this thing innocuous and thus acceptable
• 42:37
  to the general
• 42:37
  SPEAKER_02: public by creating a desire for it as an object.
• 42:42
  SPEAKER_02: And that's, like, further alienating the physical body.
• 42:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's so interesting.
• 42:48
  Like,
• 42:49
  could this cause have been so successful if it hadn't been a
• 42:52
  fashionable trinket?
• 42:54
  And something I was thinking about was like,
• 42:58
  could this be nearly as successful to Jay?
• 43:00
  SPEAKER_01: And I kind of think, no.
• 43:03
  SPEAKER_02: I think not as such,
• 43:05
  but I just think about the way that people feel like reposting
• 43:09
  a video on Instagram
• 43:10
  SPEAKER_02: is like doing activism.
• 43:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 43:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 43:13
  Well,
• 43:13
  but then it's interesting because like the kid refusing sugar
• 43:16
  is like such a small act.
• 43:18
  SPEAKER_01: But of course,
• 43:19
  SPEAKER_01: looking back historically,
• 43:20
  SPEAKER_01: you start to see that if enough people refuse to put sugar in their tea,
• 43:23
  SPEAKER_01: then that does have a sort of sea change capability.
• 43:28
  And I was actually spending time on like the BDS website this
• 43:31
  week to try to,
• 43:32
  SPEAKER_01: because I was writing about something that I was like,
• 43:34
  SPEAKER_01: is this really fucked up to write about?
• 43:37
  SPEAKER_01: Which it probably was.
• 43:37
  SPEAKER_01: The Manischewitz cracker?
• 43:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 43:41
  SPEAKER_02: I was like, I have a guess about it.
• 43:45
  SPEAKER_01: Is it?
• 43:47
  SPEAKER_01: It's like so implicated that it's not even mentioned.
• 43:52
  SPEAKER_01: So I don't know.
• 43:53
  SPEAKER_01: It can't be good.
• 43:54
  SPEAKER_01: It can't be good, basically.
• 43:55
  SPEAKER_01: But I was reading that there's like,
• 43:58
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know,
• 43:59
  SPEAKER_01: that there's organic grassroots BDS movements against like Papa John's or
• 44:03
  SPEAKER_01: McDonald's,
• 44:04
  ones that aren't even being like necessarily organized by the
• 44:07
  BDS movement.
• 44:10
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like,
• 44:11
  SPEAKER_01: I guess I already don't go to McDonald's.
• 44:13
  SPEAKER_00: So I was just sort of thinking about like,
• 44:16
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know what,
• 44:16
  SPEAKER_01: I'm always wondering what the power is of the individual action.
• 44:19
  SPEAKER_01: And I think a lot of what we hear people say
• 44:22
  feeling distressed about in the current political moment is
• 44:25
  like well what can I
• 44:26
  possibly do and feeling futile and yeah well it's also just
• 44:31
  like at this point it's
• 44:32
  like everything is so like because of the way that globalism
• 44:37
  works and because of
• 44:38
  the way that over the course of the 20th century so many
• 44:43
  companies consolidated
• 44:44
  SPEAKER_02: it's like
• 44:46
  SPEAKER_02: somebody told me party full is like somehow bound to Palantir.
• 44:51
  SPEAKER_02: Like don't use it.
• 44:54
  Or like I,
• 44:55
  you know,
• 44:56
  a Velo,
• 44:56
  that airline that was like doing the ice flights.
• 44:59
  SPEAKER_02: It's like,
• 45:00
  SPEAKER_02: okay,
• 45:00
  SPEAKER_02: well I won't fly a Velo,
• 45:02
  SPEAKER_02: but like,
• 45:03
  I think a Velo is owned by Delta and Delta owns a bunch of
• 45:06
  other airlines and like,
• 45:07
  SPEAKER_02: and your credit card and my credit card.
• 45:10
  SPEAKER_02: You just like,
• 45:11
  SPEAKER_02: but it's like,
• 45:11
  SPEAKER_02: I don't,
• 45:12
  SPEAKER_02: at some point I'm going to have to take a plane somewhere.
• 45:14
  SPEAKER_02: And it's like, I don't, there is not,
• 45:16
  a there's no good answer anymore like it's it's beyond just not
• 45:21
  having sugar in
• 45:22
  your coffee it's like you would have to live under a rock and
• 45:25
  not speak to anyone
• 45:26
  or buy anything ever again yeah well did you see that like all
• 45:31
  the big art fairs
• 45:33
  agreed to not do international fairs anymore like basel and
• 45:38
  tfaf and there i think
• 45:41
  SPEAKER_02: in basel international
• 45:43
  Yeah,
• 45:43
  but I think they're not going to do Miami anymore or something
• 45:45
  like that.
• 45:46
  SPEAKER_01: I just saw this in passing.
• 45:48
  SPEAKER_01: Because America's bad?
• 45:50
  SPEAKER_01: No, because of global warming.
• 45:54
  SPEAKER_02: which I thought was really interesting.
• 45:55
  SPEAKER_02: They do get a lot of shit.
• 45:58
  They've been getting shit for years because everyone flies
• 46:00
  there on a private plane.
• 46:02
  SPEAKER_02: The other side of this, which is like...
• 46:06
  SPEAKER_02: I guess it's not the other side.
• 46:07
  I'm just emphasizing the point that Wedgwood's legacy is so
• 46:12
  tied up to labor and to
• 46:15
  SPEAKER_02: capitalism and the growth of industrial capitalism.
• 46:19
  SPEAKER_02: And so there's kind of this irony of him also...
• 46:22
  SPEAKER_02: being really dedicated to this cause that is
• 46:28
  SPEAKER_02: On the one hand,
• 46:29
  he's trying to turn his workmen like stated goal of turning
• 46:32
  them into machines.
• 46:33
  SPEAKER_02: And yet he's against the dehumanization of this whole group of people.
• 46:39
  SPEAKER_02: And obviously the slave trade is like much more violent,
• 46:42
  SPEAKER_02: violent,
• 46:42
  SPEAKER_02: like on the ground than what he's doing.
• 46:47
  SPEAKER_02: But if you look at where we end up,
• 46:50
  SPEAKER_02: it's like disenfranchisement,
• 46:52
  SPEAKER_02: like the destruction of the working class,
• 46:54
  SPEAKER_02: like all of these things are a direct legacy of Wedgwood's
• 46:58
  product as well yeah um and there's a quote in the moon book
• 47:04
  from adam smith's the
• 47:05
  wealth of nations where i don't know if you read this part but
• 47:09
  she talks about how
• 47:10
  smith used the term toil and trouble to describe the value of
• 47:14
  labor which is like
• 47:15
  very weird shakespearean thing trouble double double toil and
• 47:21
  trouble let's make
• 47:23
  SPEAKER_02: that um
• 47:25
  SPEAKER_02: But Moon or sorry,
• 47:28
  SPEAKER_02: Smith writes,
• 47:29
  SPEAKER_02: the real price of everything,
• 47:31
  what everything costs to the man who wants to acquire it is the
• 47:34
  toil and trouble of
• 47:35
  SPEAKER_02: acquiring it.
• 47:36
  What everything is really worth to the man who has acquired it
• 47:39
  and who wants to
• 47:40
  dispose of it or exchange it for something else is the toil and
• 47:42
  trouble which it
• 47:43
  SPEAKER_02: can save to himself and which it can impose on other people.
• 47:48
  SPEAKER_02: And then in another book of Smith's where he's theorizing about morality,
• 47:52
  SPEAKER_02: he writes,
• 47:53
  SPEAKER_02: though our brother is upon the rack,
• 47:55
  SPEAKER_02: as long as we ourselves are at ease,
• 47:57
  SPEAKER_02: our senses will never inform us of what he suffers.
• 48:01
  SPEAKER_02: And so in these two works,
• 48:03
  SPEAKER_02: which I don't think Smith brings together,
• 48:06
  he's describing basically the system of how labor turns into a
• 48:12
  commodity and
• 48:13
  SPEAKER_02: circulates.
• 48:14
  SPEAKER_02: And then how we...
• 48:18
  only can enjoy ease and comfort at the expense of these other
• 48:23
  people's labor and
• 48:24
  SPEAKER_02: suffering,
• 48:26
  SPEAKER_02: which is like the foundation of capitalism.
• 48:28
  And so slavery is the most extreme,
• 48:31
  like enslaved labor is the most extreme form of that.
• 48:34
  But that is the basis of all of these other production
• 48:37
  techniques as well.
• 48:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 48:39
  SPEAKER_01: And it's just like one person's crime begets another person's crime.
• 48:44
  And I feel like we were just talking about this with the gadfly
• 48:47
  and how when he's
• 48:49
  SPEAKER_01: in South America,
• 48:50
  he's being abused by people who are like jumping at the
• 48:52
  opportunity to abuse
• 48:54
  SPEAKER_01: someone else because they too are being abused.
• 48:56
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like a microcosm of what's wrong with the world.
• 49:01
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 49:01
  SPEAKER_02: And like,
• 49:01
  SPEAKER_02: what is,
• 49:03
  I think makes like the British context for this particularly
• 49:06
  interesting is that
• 49:07
  SPEAKER_02: like,
• 49:08
  SPEAKER_02: because they don't even have to see the brother on the rack,
• 49:11
  SPEAKER_02: like they're able to just enjoy this,
• 49:14
  like this toil and trouble of elsewhere as like sugar in your
• 49:18
  tea and not,
• 49:19
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
• 49:21
  It's just like,
• 49:21
  it's so,
• 49:23
  I know that we live with this too and it makes you think,
• 49:26
  but
• 49:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 49:28
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I think it's...
• 49:29
  SPEAKER_02: If you order something on Amazon, you're doing this.
• 49:32
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 49:34
  SPEAKER_02: We're so not innocent, but it's also so extreme now.
• 49:37
  SPEAKER_02: It's like, I don't know what you would do to not participate.
• 49:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 49:41
  SPEAKER_01: Everything is so disembodied.
• 49:43
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's what makes...
• 49:45
  SPEAKER_01: It's Manet, right?
• 49:46
  SPEAKER_01: Or is it Degas?
• 49:47
  SPEAKER_01: The one who had relatives in New Orleans?
• 49:50
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's Degas.
• 49:51
  SPEAKER_02: Degas.
• 49:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 49:53
  SPEAKER_01: I always come back to that as this crazy...
• 49:57
  kind of synchronicity of time to me so basically Degas like had
• 50:02
  as a French person
• 50:03
  had all these relatives in New France and what was already the
• 50:07
  United States but
• 50:07
  like relatives who were like deeply invested in the cotton
• 50:11
  slave trade in New
• 50:12
  SPEAKER_01: Orleans and he went there and painted it and it's like so it's just like
• 50:15
  you don't i i don't know someone says they got i think
• 50:18
  ballerina like i think of a
• 50:20
  a beautiful sophisticated cultured paris and like an
• 50:24
  aspirational space but then to
• 50:25
  realize that he too was being he was complicit in and funded by
• 50:30
  in some ways this
• 50:31
  like family legacy of slavery is it we separate everything so
• 50:36
  much and that's such
• 50:38
  SPEAKER_02: a concrete literal example but like all of 19th century european
• 50:42
  culture is funded by the slave trade yeah or by colonial
• 50:45
  exploitation funded by or
• 50:47
  made better by you know like when you when we read about people
• 50:50
  making tea and
• 50:51
  putting sugar in their tea like yeah and that makes before and
• 50:55
  that makes for like
• 50:56
  an interesting scene in a novel like someone's stirring sugar
• 51:01
  into their tea like
• 51:03
  SPEAKER_01: it's all just inextricable
• 51:05
  well and like if you're really gonna be nuts about it it's like
• 51:08
  i don't think it's
• 51:09
  a coincidence that the enlightenment coincides with the birth
• 51:12
  of this labor system
• 51:13
  because why do you need a monarch when you have wealth coming
• 51:17
  in in this way yeah
• 51:19
  also like i think therefore i am like the separation of mind
• 51:23
  and body that becomes
• 51:24
  SPEAKER_01: like endemic insistence on personhood mm-hmm
• 51:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's just like, duh, duh.
• 51:33
  SPEAKER_02: It's sort of like D-U-M-DOM where it's like,
• 51:35
  SPEAKER_02: or like Galaxy Brain or something where it's like,
• 51:40
  SPEAKER_02: it's so obvious and yet it's like when you think about it.
• 51:44
  SPEAKER_01: Well, we have to constantly remind ourselves, I think.
• 51:47
  SPEAKER_01: We have to constantly remind ourselves.
• 51:49
  There's like a series of images that I pulled that when I was
• 51:53
  like looking into
• 51:55
  SPEAKER_02: this that I want to show you,
• 51:56
  but I guess I'll just describe them for people and then maybe
• 51:58
  we can include them
• 51:59
  SPEAKER_02: in the notes or something.
• 52:01
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 52:02
  SPEAKER_02: Basically,
• 52:03
  like there's all of these images that also circulate at the
• 52:06
  same time that kind of
• 52:07
  SPEAKER_02: like depict this erasure of the black body in this white image.
• 52:12
  leisure environment like quite literally so i'm going to show
• 52:17
  you so this is a
• 52:19
  portrait of a woman holding a mask and the mask has like very
• 52:23
  stereotypically like
• 52:25
  almost vaudeville like features it's a quote blackamoor mask
• 52:30
  it's minstrel and
• 52:32
  SPEAKER_01: minstrel that's for not vaudeville
• 52:35
  and this was painted between 1795 and 1800 and is you know it's
• 52:40
  a masquerade so
• 52:41
  it's a white woman who's wearing like a white empire waist
• 52:44
  dress and has these
• 52:46
  whatever like beautiful pearls in her hair and she's like so
• 52:49
  white and then it's
• 52:51
  just holding this kind of like disembodied face of like the
• 52:57
  most stereotypical
• 52:59
  SPEAKER_02: black person and their eyes are empty it's like this kind of
• 53:04
  like literal depiction of how you know that's what's
• 53:08
  underwriting her leisure and
• 53:10
  her ability to go to the masquerade yeah i've also like never
• 53:13
  seen one image that
• 53:15
  so perfectly responds to the question that is bridgerton well
• 53:21
  actually i have
• 53:22
  SPEAKER_02: another one
• 53:24
  okay let's see it that's more bridgerton well let me go through
• 53:27
  these first do you
• 53:28
  there's a crazy story this is a hogarth image that the montague
• 53:32
  family and an
• 53:33
  unknown attendant now will you look around and tell me where
• 53:36
  you see the attendant
• 53:37
  can you zoom in i'm worried that he's like underneath the table
• 53:44
  no it's his arm is
• 53:46
  SPEAKER_02: sticking in right there so he is underneath the table
• 53:50
  like kind of like he's he doesn't have a body or face I do
• 53:55
  think the image was like
• 53:57
  the painting was made smaller at some point but even still the
• 54:00
  fact that they were
• 54:01
  like we're going to resize it and we're just going to leave
• 54:03
  this like disembodied
• 54:05
  black child's hand in holding a tray and that's going to be the
• 54:10
  way to share that
• 54:11
  this family was wealthy enough to have these servants but we
• 54:14
  don't need the person
• 54:16
  SPEAKER_02: it's just about showing that
• 54:18
  that wealth exists yeah I would never have noticed that were it
• 54:20
  not for the title
• 54:21
  too yeah it's just so weird or not weird it's horrifying it's
• 54:26
  not weird at all it's
• 54:27
  horrifying and then this is sort of a more classic thing that
• 54:31
  you would see in the
• 54:31
  18th century it's a portrait of a little girl and she has both
• 54:34
  a dog and a black
• 54:36
  child with her and they're both wearing collars and it's meant
• 54:39
  to illustrate not
• 54:41
  SPEAKER_02: just like her ownership over them but also her
• 54:47
  that she's a beautiful girl and they're both animals it's like
• 54:52
  this really and
• 54:55
  there's so much scholarship about this and that I'm happy to
• 54:59
  share with people
• 55:00
  about how whiteness is only constructed in opposition to
• 55:05
  figures like this and that
• 55:07
  like whiteness is being invented in this period as kind of an
• 55:11
  alternative or not an
• 55:13
  SPEAKER_02: alternative but like
• 55:16
  SPEAKER_02: We've talked about this before with modernity too.
• 55:18
  It's like you need to create the other in order to put yourself
• 55:22
  on a pedestal above it.
• 55:24
  And like that's what's happening in these images is that the
• 55:26
  white painters and
• 55:28
  sitters are positioning themselves in opposition to and
• 55:33
  therefore in a hierarchy
• 55:34
  SPEAKER_02: above others.
• 55:36
  My final image is of it's called the benevolent effects of
• 55:41
  abolishing slavery or
• 55:42
  the planter instructing his Negro is an 18th century print
• 55:46
  after a painting by the
• 55:47
  SPEAKER_02: man whose name is.
• 55:52
  SPEAKER_02: Von Breda, no, Wadstrom.
• 55:56
  SPEAKER_02: And he's the one who did the famous drawing of the slave ship,
• 56:00
  SPEAKER_02: which I will also show you,
• 56:02
  SPEAKER_02: that people have seen.
• 56:03
  SPEAKER_02: It's sort of a section drawing of a slave ship.
• 56:05
  SPEAKER_02: And it's like this,
• 56:06
  SPEAKER_02: like the bodies are so crammed in and it shows the way that 292 slaves,
• 56:13
  SPEAKER_02: which was the legal limit in England,
• 56:16
  SPEAKER_02: were fitted into the
• 56:18
  SPEAKER_02: a ship just the worst image of all time it's yeah it's there's like um
• 56:26
  SPEAKER_02: There's like shelves.
• 56:28
  SPEAKER_02: People couldn't sit up straight.
• 56:29
  SPEAKER_02: It's just awful.
• 56:30
  SPEAKER_02: And this was like a week's long journey.
• 56:33
  All of this was setting the stage for the foundation of this
• 56:38
  abolitionist group in
• 56:40
  SPEAKER_02: 1787 that distributed these medallions.
• 56:45
  SPEAKER_02: And there were two.
• 56:46
  SPEAKER_01: Name it.
• 56:46
  SPEAKER_02: Name it.
• 56:47
  SPEAKER_02: The Society for Effecting the Abolition of the Slave Trade.
• 56:51
  SPEAKER_01: Well done.
• 56:51
  SPEAKER_01: Well done.
• 56:53
  SPEAKER_02: And...
• 56:56
  SPEAKER_02: there were other things that happened in the years leading up to it,
• 57:00
  SPEAKER_02: one of them being the Zorg case,
• 57:03
  SPEAKER_02: which was essentially a case...
• 57:06
  SPEAKER_02: Did you explain this?
• 57:07
  SPEAKER_02: No, right?
• 57:08
  SPEAKER_02: I think we did, but not today, in a different episode.
• 57:12
  SPEAKER_02: Well, people don't listen to all of them.
• 57:13
  SPEAKER_01: To all of our new listeners.
• 57:15
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, exactly.
• 57:17
  SPEAKER_02: The hundreds and thousands of you.
• 57:20
  SPEAKER_02: So Zorg was a slave ship that...
• 57:26
  SPEAKER_02: It's like so sickening.
• 57:29
  SPEAKER_02: Basically was underwritten by a Liverpool syndicate,
• 57:32
  SPEAKER_02: was sailing to the colonies,
• 57:35
  gets to Jamaica and realizes that they have somehow
• 57:39
  misnavigated and they don't
• 57:41
  SPEAKER_02: have enough water for everyone on board.
• 57:44
  and so they this is the this is the argument they made it's
• 57:49
  like sort of unknown
• 57:49
  what actually happened it could have also been an insurance
• 57:51
  scheme basically they
• 57:54
  over the course of three days throw 132 of the enslaved people
• 58:00
  who were brought on
• 58:02
  SPEAKER_02: that ship over the middle atlantic overboard to kill them yeah and
• 58:10
  SPEAKER_02: They, so this is in 1781.
• 58:14
  The court case is in 1783 and the court case like turns the
• 58:20
  British public's stomach.
• 58:22
  I think for the first time they're really confronted with like
• 58:27
  how horrific this is.
• 58:29
  SPEAKER_01: Not only horrific, but also just a financial act too.
• 58:33
  SPEAKER_01: Like these,
• 58:34
  the reason they were in court was because they were making an
• 58:37
  insurance claim on
• 58:37
  SPEAKER_01: the 132 people who they killed.
• 58:40
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 58:40
  And so what's really kind of insane about this in retrospect is
• 58:46
  at no point is
• 58:48
  SPEAKER_02: slavery being litigated here.
• 58:50
  SPEAKER_02: It's basically whether the cargo, quote, cargo of the ship is...
• 58:55
  If a crime was committed against people,
• 58:59
  then there's not an insurance claim.
• 59:01
  SPEAKER_02: If the cargo is considered property and not human.
• 59:06
  So there were people that wanted to prosecute the crew of the
• 59:08
  ship for murder,
• 59:09
  basically.
• 59:10
  SPEAKER_02: Because it was the captain's fault that they didn't have enough water.
• 59:14
  SPEAKER_02: He had misnavigated.
• 59:15
  SPEAKER_02: And so he should have been liable for the deaths and not...
• 59:24
  like murdered people and there's like horrifying accounts of
• 59:28
  people who survived
• 59:29
  saying that they could hear the other people being drowned and
• 59:32
  they begged and
• 59:33
  pleaded to not be fed and to like let them die of thirst rather
• 59:36
  than be thrown
• 59:36
  overboard like really really horrific also like something which
• 59:43
  i think the book
• 59:43
  SPEAKER_01: i'm reading called the zorg
• 59:46
  characterized as well is like you're talking about the
• 59:49
  liability of the individual
• 59:50
  captain but these slave ships were investments it was as if
• 59:54
  yeah it's the same
• 59:55
  thing as like if five of us were like we're going to go in on
• 59:58
  the construction of a
• 59:58
  new real estate tower or whatever like yeah so people were it's
• 1:00:03
  like the captain is
• 1:00:04
  five of us should go in on a construction of a new real estate
• 1:00:07
  tower i'm calling it
• 1:00:08
  SPEAKER_01: a real estate tower um
• 1:00:11
  It's just like even more horrifying because the captain is just
• 1:00:15
  like an instrument
• 1:00:16
  SPEAKER_01: of somebody's portfolio.
• 1:00:18
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:00:21
  And so basically like the owners of the ship and the insurance
• 1:00:23
  company are in this lawsuit.
• 1:00:26
  SPEAKER_02: And it's so dehumanizing.
• 1:00:29
  SPEAKER_02: And so the person who oversees this basically...
• 1:00:34
  The ship owners win and then the insurance company go to the
• 1:00:38
  Earl of Mansfield and ask him.
• 1:00:42
  SPEAKER_02: He had been a lawyer.
• 1:00:44
  SPEAKER_02: He's a connected MP.
• 1:00:47
  They ask him to help them renegotiate the outcome of the case
• 1:00:54
  or to bring it back to court.
• 1:00:55
  SPEAKER_02: I don't understand how British courts work, but they do something.
• 1:00:58
  SPEAKER_02: And...
• 1:01:02
  SPEAKER_02: the Earl of Mansfield brings it back into court.
• 1:01:07
  SPEAKER_02: And basically there's this like really famous quote where he says,
• 1:01:15
  they have to make the case that the slaves were the same as if
• 1:01:18
  horses had been
• 1:01:19
  SPEAKER_02: thrown overboard.
• 1:01:20
  SPEAKER_02: And eventually the, and the,
• 1:01:29
  The Earl of Mansfield is interesting because he had also seen
• 1:01:32
  overseen one of the
• 1:01:33
  SPEAKER_02: most important slavery cases previously in 1772,
• 1:01:41
  SPEAKER_02: a case called Somerset versus Stewart,
• 1:01:43
  in which an escaped slave comes to London and his owner is
• 1:01:48
  basically trying to get
• 1:01:50
  SPEAKER_02: him back into slavery in the West Indies.
• 1:01:53
  SPEAKER_02: And
• 1:01:54
  SPEAKER_02: Mansfield wanted to prevent it from happening,
• 1:01:58
  but didn't want to outlaw slavery or make any like judgment
• 1:02:04
  that would call into
• 1:02:05
  SPEAKER_02: question the entire practice of slavery.
• 1:02:07
  So he's navigating this legal system where he basically is says
• 1:02:13
  in England,
• 1:02:14
  SPEAKER_02: you can't be enslaved because of habeas corpus,
• 1:02:18
  SPEAKER_02: but slavery as an institution outside of that is allowed.
• 1:02:22
  Well,
• 1:02:23
  it's like when Benjamin Franklin brought Sally Hemings to
• 1:02:26
  France where it was illegal.
• 1:02:28
  SPEAKER_01: It's illegal to have a slave in France.
• 1:02:32
  And then he has children with her in France and they're not
• 1:02:34
  born into slavery
• 1:02:35
  SPEAKER_01: because you can't be born a slave in France.
• 1:02:39
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah,
• 1:02:39
  SPEAKER_02: I mean,
• 1:02:40
  so basically the outcome of this case is that slave owners are
• 1:02:44
  basically warned not
• 1:02:45
  SPEAKER_02: to bring their slaves to England,
• 1:02:48
  SPEAKER_02: but that slavery in the colonies could continue,
• 1:02:51
  SPEAKER_02: which was the desired outcome.
• 1:02:53
  SPEAKER_02: Now,
• 1:02:53
  an interesting thing about Lord Mansfield is that he had a
• 1:02:58
  niece who was born into
• 1:03:00
  slavery as the illegitimate daughter of a Royal Navy officer
• 1:03:04
  named Dido Elizabeth
• 1:03:05
  SPEAKER_02: Bell.
• 1:03:06
  SPEAKER_02: Do you know about her?
• 1:03:08
  SPEAKER_02: I feel like I do.
• 1:03:10
  SPEAKER_02: So she her father was a Royal Navy officer.
• 1:03:15
  SPEAKER_02: Her mother was an enslaved person named Maria Bell,
• 1:03:20
  SPEAKER_02: who was taken to the British West Indies and.
• 1:03:26
  SPEAKER_02: was impregnated by this man and had this child.
• 1:03:29
  SPEAKER_02: And then for whatever reason,
• 1:03:34
  SPEAKER_02: Lindsay took Dido back to England and left her with his uncle,
• 1:03:41
  SPEAKER_02: who is the Earl of Mansfield,
• 1:03:44
  SPEAKER_02: William Murray,
• 1:03:45
  SPEAKER_02: to raise.
• 1:03:46
  SPEAKER_02: And he raises her in his house as a gentlewoman.
• 1:03:50
  SPEAKER_01: Isn't there a movie about her?
• 1:03:51
  SPEAKER_01: Probably.
• 1:03:53
  SPEAKER_01: There must be.
• 1:03:54
  SPEAKER_02: It would shock me if there wasn't.
• 1:03:57
  SPEAKER_01: Well,
• 1:03:57
  SPEAKER_01: what it's also making me think is,
• 1:03:58
  SPEAKER_01: have you ever read or heard of Clotel,
• 1:04:01
  SPEAKER_01: that novel by William Wells Brown,
• 1:04:04
  SPEAKER_01: which is from 1853?
• 1:04:05
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I have heard of that, but I haven't read it.
• 1:04:07
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like sort of a fictional interpretation of the legacy.
• 1:04:14
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's about basically Thomas Jefferson's alleged slave children,
• 1:04:19
  SPEAKER_01: like children that he had with an enslaved woman.
• 1:04:22
  SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
• 1:04:22
  SPEAKER_01: And they're like these beautiful girls.
• 1:04:25
  SPEAKER_01: And one of them is named Clotel.
• 1:04:26
  And it's just about like the way that her life is defined by
• 1:04:33
  servitude and violence.
• 1:04:35
  SPEAKER_01: But she's actually like the secret daughter of a president.
• 1:04:38
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:04:39
  SPEAKER_02: It's sort of like my date with the president's daughter.
• 1:04:41
  SPEAKER_02: It's a lot like that.
• 1:04:43
  um yeah so dido is like raised in this house she's always kind
• 1:04:48
  of on the outside
• 1:04:49
  and she doesn't inherit in the same way and there's like all i
• 1:04:52
  she does not have
• 1:04:53
  like the the most fabulous like princess life ever but it's
• 1:04:59
  kind of shocking that
• 1:05:01
  SPEAKER_02: look at this portrait
• 1:05:03
  yeah so there's a portrait of her and lady elizabeth murray who
• 1:05:07
  was the earl of
• 1:05:07
  mansfield's daughter and they were raised as sisters in this
• 1:05:10
  house or cousins but
• 1:05:11
  sisters and there's a portrait of the two of them and they're
• 1:05:16
  just both outfitted
• 1:05:17
  in these like gorgeous pearls they have like shiny dresses
• 1:05:20
  they're having fun
• 1:05:22
  SPEAKER_02: they're smiling she's got kind of this coy look on her face and
• 1:05:29
  People who visited the house at the time would give all these
• 1:05:32
  accounts of like how
• 1:05:36
  SPEAKER_02: this girl was chilling with them and BD.
• 1:05:39
  So there's speculation that the Earl of Mansfield like was kind
• 1:05:43
  of softened.
• 1:05:45
  SPEAKER_01: And this is the movie about Dido called Belle.
• 1:05:48
  SPEAKER_01: I remember seeing in 2013.
• 1:05:51
  SPEAKER_02: I have not seen that.
• 1:05:52
  SPEAKER_02: It's really good.
• 1:05:54
  And the other thing is that people have speculated that
• 1:05:56
  Mansfield Park is named
• 1:05:58
  SPEAKER_02: after Lord Mansfield.
• 1:05:59
  SPEAKER_01: I was going to say coincidence.
• 1:06:01
  SPEAKER_01: I think not.
• 1:06:02
  Because Austin was really interested in...
• 1:06:06
  She was aware of the case about the Zorg massacre.
• 1:06:12
  SPEAKER_02: And then also these stories were circulating about Mansfield and this...
• 1:06:17
  SPEAKER_02: woman who was being raised in her house.
• 1:06:18
  SPEAKER_02: One of the things that people say when they say Mansfield Park,
• 1:06:20
  which I don't really buy when they say Mansfield Park is like
• 1:06:24
  Jane Austen's
• 1:06:25
  abolitionist novel is that Fanny Howe is kind of like trapped
• 1:06:28
  in this house.
• 1:06:29
  SPEAKER_02: She's a working class girl and she's not Fanny Howe.
• 1:06:32
  it's it's fanny price fanny price which i always think it's
• 1:06:36
  funny because it's
• 1:06:37
  fanny bryce is barbara streisand's character's name in funny
• 1:06:41
  girl but no relation
• 1:06:43
  fanny how is fanny how is like in a book that i think we're
• 1:06:47
  publishing i feel like
• 1:06:49
  oh maybe let me google fanny how is a novelist who's still
• 1:06:53
  alive okay it's also so
• 1:06:57
  SPEAKER_01: confused
• 1:07:00
  But anyway,
• 1:07:01
  you know,
• 1:07:01
  Fanny's raised in this house with these wealthy people.
• 1:07:04
  SPEAKER_02: She's like of a different class and kind of always on the outside.
• 1:07:07
  And she's so there's like speculation that this was inspired by
• 1:07:11
  Dido's story.
• 1:07:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
• 1:07:13
  SPEAKER_01: and I remember when reading Mansfield Park,
• 1:07:16
  knowing that it was the novel that was implicated in the larger
• 1:07:19
  world more than the
• 1:07:20
  SPEAKER_01: other Austen novels,
• 1:07:21
  SPEAKER_01: wondering about that aspect of Fanny's character,
• 1:07:24
  SPEAKER_01: and then being like,
• 1:07:24
  SPEAKER_01: it doesn't really make sense,
• 1:07:25
  SPEAKER_01: because ultimately she is able to escape several times over.
• 1:07:28
  I also just wanted to say that I accidentally referred to Sally
• 1:07:31
  Hemings as Benjamin
• 1:07:33
  SPEAKER_01: Franklin's girlfriend,
• 1:07:35
  SPEAKER_01: but she was actually in a relationship with Thomas Jefferson.
• 1:07:39
  and i just i think you said jefferson after i then talked about
• 1:07:42
  jefferson i'm just
• 1:07:44
  sort of coiled up in my own associations here all good all good
• 1:07:48
  i just thought it
• 1:07:48
  was an important clarification especially you're gonna get if
• 1:07:51
  you're gonna
• 1:07:52
  misidentify anyone i feel like one of the founding fathers is
• 1:07:55
  acceptable but also
• 1:07:57
  like the idea that thomas jefferson wrote the declaration of
• 1:08:00
  independence and has a
• 1:08:01
  SPEAKER_01: really which declares the like rights of individual people
• 1:08:06
  while also being in a relationship with someone whose very
• 1:08:08
  personhood was not
• 1:08:10
  SPEAKER_01: legally recognized is crazy.
• 1:08:12
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, that's the fundamental truth of our country.
• 1:08:15
  And Ben Franklin actually was an abolitionist and owned one of
• 1:08:18
  these slave medallions.
• 1:08:20
  SPEAKER_02: Back to the object at hand.
• 1:08:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, take me there.
• 1:08:23
  SPEAKER_01: Take me back.
• 1:08:26
  SPEAKER_02: No, I don't know.
• 1:08:27
  SPEAKER_02: I'm just kind of circling around.
• 1:08:28
  SPEAKER_02: So the other sort of like big...
• 1:08:31
  thing is that the reason that the zorg massacre became such big
• 1:08:35
  news is because of
• 1:08:37
  a man who was working with the society perfecting the abolition
• 1:08:43
  of the slave trade
• 1:08:44
  whose name was a lot at quino do you know who that is yes i do
• 1:08:51
  say more well what i
• 1:08:53
  SPEAKER_01: was trying to remember well
• 1:08:57
  I think that he's deeply involved and I don't remember why,
• 1:09:00
  but will you explain?
• 1:09:03
  SPEAKER_01: He is deeply involved.
• 1:09:04
  SPEAKER_01: You're right.
• 1:09:05
  SPEAKER_02: Good job.
• 1:09:06
  SPEAKER_02: So he is...
• 1:09:11
  SPEAKER_02: An abolitionist, he was born.
• 1:09:13
  SPEAKER_02: So he has kind of an iffy life story.
• 1:09:16
  He claims that he was born in Africa and was a prince and was
• 1:09:21
  enslaved and brought
• 1:09:22
  to the Americas and then bought his freedom and then became a
• 1:09:27
  prominent figure in
• 1:09:28
  SPEAKER_02: the abolitionist movement.
• 1:09:30
  his like later biographer sort of speculates that he actually
• 1:09:33
  was born into slavery
• 1:09:34
  SPEAKER_02: in America and that he made up this story,
• 1:09:39
  SPEAKER_02: I think in part to like give himself some authority,
• 1:09:41
  SPEAKER_02: but also in part because he wanted,
• 1:09:44
  so his most famous contribution to the abolitionist movement is
• 1:09:48
  that he wrote the
• 1:09:48
  SPEAKER_02: first,
• 1:09:49
  SPEAKER_02: like what would be called a quote slave narrative,
• 1:09:51
  which was called the interesting narrative of the life of a lot
• 1:09:54
  of Aquino.
• 1:09:54
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 1:09:56
  SPEAKER_02: And there's, so there's sort of like, why'd he lie?
• 1:10:00
  SPEAKER_02: It's like make his book more desirable or romantic.
• 1:10:03
  But I also think that there's a real possibility that like
• 1:10:06
  describing the middle
• 1:10:07
  SPEAKER_02: passage,
• 1:10:08
  even if he hadn't actually been on it was crucial to telling
• 1:10:10
  the story he wanted to
• 1:10:11
  SPEAKER_02: tell.
• 1:10:13
  And that even if the facts of his life don't line up with the
• 1:10:18
  facts of the book
• 1:10:19
  SPEAKER_02: he's writing,
• 1:10:20
  SPEAKER_02: there is like a truth in the story he's telling that is worth sharing.
• 1:10:24
  telling regardless of whether you live dead or not you know
• 1:10:29
  what i mean yeah like i
• 1:10:32
  i think he wanted to share some a narrative of something it did
• 1:10:37
  i don't think it
• 1:10:38
  SPEAKER_02: necessarily has to be his own life to like be valid and also like
• 1:10:43
  SPEAKER_01: was pretty close.
• 1:10:45
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it was not like he was born free as the wind blows.
• 1:10:51
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I guess he was.
• 1:10:52
  SPEAKER_01: We all are.
• 1:10:53
  SPEAKER_01: We're all born free.
• 1:10:55
  SPEAKER_02: We're all born free.
• 1:10:55
  SPEAKER_02: But...
• 1:10:59
  SPEAKER_02: The other person I was thinking,
• 1:11:00
  SPEAKER_02: I mean,
• 1:11:00
  I'm obviously was thinking about Sidia Hartman a lot while I
• 1:11:02
  was like doing these
• 1:11:03
  SPEAKER_02: readings and like particularly like that story.
• 1:11:06
  And then also the story of kind of this like generic story of
• 1:11:10
  women on the ships in
• 1:11:12
  SPEAKER_02: the Middle Passage,
• 1:11:12
  SPEAKER_02: like beguiling the capitalists.
• 1:11:14
  SPEAKER_02: and like these really horrible,
• 1:11:16
  SPEAKER_02: like,
• 1:11:17
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 1:11:17
  SPEAKER_01: this idea of like the Venus,
• 1:11:19
  which is something Sadia Hartman kind of co-ops and takes to
• 1:11:22
  try to retell these
• 1:11:23
  SPEAKER_02: stories.
• 1:11:24
  And just like how in thinking about this medallion as this
• 1:11:30
  existing body that is
• 1:11:33
  SPEAKER_02: representative of like
• 1:11:37
  a desire to abolish slavery while also kind of like skirting
• 1:11:40
  the issue of slavery
• 1:11:41
  SPEAKER_02: itself and how figures like,
• 1:11:45
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:11:45
  Olaida Aquino in his time or Sidiya Hartman in our time are
• 1:11:51
  like trying to re...
• 1:11:53
  SPEAKER_02: to instate these stories that are being erased back into the archive,
• 1:11:58
  SPEAKER_02: even like through like kind of critical fabulation,
• 1:12:01
  SPEAKER_02: which is Sidia Hartman's thing,
• 1:12:02
  SPEAKER_02: or like,
• 1:12:03
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:12:04
  embellishing the edges of your own life in order to make it
• 1:12:08
  encompass a wider
• 1:12:09
  SPEAKER_02: story.
• 1:12:11
  SPEAKER_02: And so Aquino is the one who brings the story of the Zorg massacre to the
• 1:12:19
  abolitionist group that he's a part of in order to get it
• 1:12:22
  published and spread more
• 1:12:23
  SPEAKER_02: widely.
• 1:12:23
  SPEAKER_02: So that becomes like a huge propaganda thing for them.
• 1:12:26
  I think you took one object and you explored the wider extents
• 1:12:30
  of the world through it.
• 1:12:33
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:12:34
  SPEAKER_01: It was a boundless story.
• 1:12:36
  SPEAKER_02: It was nice to return to my material culture roots.
• 1:12:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think there's something for you in material culture.
• 1:12:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, how one object can tell a story.
• 1:12:49
  SPEAKER_02: Anyway,
• 1:12:49
  SPEAKER_02: yeah,
• 1:12:50
  sorry to bring us to sort of a bummer of a place on our first
• 1:12:57
  trip back to the 18th
• 1:12:58
  SPEAKER_02: century.
• 1:12:59
  SPEAKER_01: But maybe that's what the 18th century is all about.
• 1:13:03
  SPEAKER_02: I guess I'll end by saying that
• 1:13:07
  I think that this object and this story justifies including
• 1:13:13
  1787 in the long 19th
• 1:13:15
  SPEAKER_02: century for sure.
• 1:13:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:13:17
  I would say this felt like a very 19th century story and it
• 1:13:21
  sets the stage for
• 1:13:22
  things that we will continue to explore in many other episodes
• 1:13:25
  of 1-800-1800.
• 1:13:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:13:27
  Yeah,
• 1:13:27
  it's like abolition,
• 1:13:29
  print,
• 1:13:29
  culture,
• 1:13:30
  objects,
• 1:13:31
  mass production,
• 1:13:32
  fashion.
• 1:13:33
  It's just like all of these things that are so 19th century are
• 1:13:36
  central to this and
• 1:13:37
  SPEAKER_02: being invented.
• 1:13:39
  SPEAKER_01: Can you hear her?
• 1:13:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I can hear her.
• 1:13:41
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 1:13:42
  SPEAKER_01: She's coming in through your microphone.
• 1:13:44
  SPEAKER_01: Perfect.
• 1:13:46
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you, everybody, for listening.
• 1:13:48
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 1:13:50
  SPEAKER_02: Fran's still screaming.
• 1:13:52
  SPEAKER_02: We love you.
• 1:13:53
  SPEAKER_02: Subscribe.
• 1:13:54
  SPEAKER_01: Send it to a friend.
• 1:13:55
  SPEAKER_01: Five-star review, please.
• 1:13:57
  SPEAKER_01: Please.
• 1:14:01
  SPEAKER_00: Hello?
• 1:14:02
  SPEAKER_00: You've reached 1-800-1800.
• 1:14:03
  SPEAKER_00: 1-800-1800.
• 1:14:03
  SPEAKER_00: I have a burning question.
• 1:14:06
  SPEAKER_00: 1-800-1800.
• 1:14:07
  SPEAKER_00: 1-800-1800.
• 1:14:07
  SPEAKER_00: 1-800-1800.
• 1:14:08
  SPEAKER_00: I have a burning question.