Latest / Being Different Together / #16 - Intentionality, Part 1: Everything You’ve Done Prepared You For This Moment

Transcript

#16 - Intentionality, Part 1: Everything You’ve Done Prepared You For This Moment · Being Different Together

0:08
SPEAKER_02: Welcome to Being Different Together, the podcast for people who want to make the world a better place, but no, they can't do it alone.
0:17
SPEAKER_00: I'm Dr.
0:18
SPEAKER_00: Kelly Brady, acupuncturist, psychotherapist, and certified dialogue therapist.
0:22
SPEAKER_02: And I'm Nissa Hanger, massage therapist, aromatherapist, coach, and real dialogue specialist.
0:29
SPEAKER_00: Together we'll explore how conversations can improve relationships, make work more joyful, and spark healing for ourselves and our communities.
0:37
SPEAKER_02: And listen, we don't shy away from the hard conversations.
0:41
SPEAKER_02: In fact, we welcome them.
0:43
SPEAKER_00: This isn't about being right.
0:45
SPEAKER_00: It's about being different.
0:47
SPEAKER_00: Together.
0:56
SPEAKER_02: Hello, hello.
0:58
SPEAKER_02: Everyone.
1:00
SPEAKER_02: Here we are for another episode of Being Different.
1:04
SPEAKER_00: Together!
1:06
SPEAKER_02: I'm here with my lovely wife, Kelly Brady.
1:08
SPEAKER_02: Hello.
1:10
SPEAKER_02: Hello, listeners.
1:11
SPEAKER_02: Hello, listeners.
1:12
SPEAKER_02: Here we are.
1:13
SPEAKER_02: We are here on uh a Monday morning, which is not normal for us, but it is how it worked out.
1:20
SPEAKER_02: It was normal.
1:20
SPEAKER_02: That was our original recording time, I'm remembering now.
1:24
SPEAKER_00: It was, it was.
1:26
SPEAKER_00: And then I realized it was too not it was not a good fit for me because I have a standing thing, a clinical thing I do on Monday night.
1:33
SPEAKER_00: Um but we're doing it this way because we have to record two episodes this week.
1:38
SPEAKER_00: Yay! Yay! And then you get behind.
1:43
SPEAKER_00: Who was the the sort of annoying pop psychology person that said, don't say you have to, say you get to.
1:49
SPEAKER_00: I don't know, but I have heard many, many, many people say that.
1:53
SPEAKER_00: I get to.
1:54
SPEAKER_00: We get to we get to.
1:55
SPEAKER_00: We get to.
1:56
SPEAKER_00: Yep.
1:57
SPEAKER_00: Yay.
1:58
SPEAKER_00: I'm actually happy to re to be recording this episode because I think we came up with a a really great idea for a series.
2:03
SPEAKER_02: Oh, totally.
2:05
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
2:06
SPEAKER_02: Um before we get into that though, I do have a little bit of business to do.
2:11
SPEAKER_02: Before we get into our great idea, but it it's fun business.
2:14
SPEAKER_02: It's fun because we got another review.
2:16
SPEAKER_02: We did.
2:16
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
2:17
SPEAKER_02: And so I just want to share this to give a shout out to Nay Diggs.
2:22
SPEAKER_02: Oh, Nay Diggs.
2:23
SPEAKER_02: Giving us a review on the Apple Podcast.
2:26
SPEAKER_02: All right, Nan.
2:27
SPEAKER_02: It's called Dream Team with five stars.
2:31
SPEAKER_02: It it doesn't actually say with five stars, it has five stars, but it's called Dream Team.
2:37
SPEAKER_02: What a gift.
2:38
SPEAKER_02: Nyssa and Kelly are a dream team.
2:40
SPEAKER_02: Gentle, humorous, yet deeply thoughtful and spiritual.
2:45
SPEAKER_02: As someone who values learning about healing, modalities, inclusion, peace, and the joy of human connection.
2:51
SPEAKER_02: This podcast has been a constant companion.
2:55
SPEAKER_02: Oh that's so sweet.
2:59
SPEAKER_00: I'm happy to hear about that.
3:00
SPEAKER_00: I like um the idea of uh being someone's companion.
3:04
SPEAKER_00: I really like that.
3:05
SPEAKER_00: You know, my goodness, you know.
3:09
SPEAKER_00: Oh, it's so nice to know that.
3:10
SPEAKER_02: You know, it's it's an interesting time to be alive, I think, because um I mean, loneliness is an echo epidemic.
3:21
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
3:22
SPEAKER_02: You know, and people it's it's easy to isolate, and yet we also are really connected at the same time.
3:30
SPEAKER_02: You know, whoever whoever you are listening to this, whenever you are, um how cool is it that we have this technology?
3:38
SPEAKER_02: And um, I'm glad that whether you're by yourself or not, that we get to be your companion.
3:46
SPEAKER_02: Oh yeah.
3:47
SPEAKER_02: It's really special.
3:49
SPEAKER_02: Totally.
3:49
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
3:50
SPEAKER_02: Um, life updates.
3:52
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
3:53
SPEAKER_02: The house we are we are under construction.
3:57
SPEAKER_02: It's so it's like when you say life updates, I'm like, oh, what's she gonna talk about?
4:02
SPEAKER_02: Well, see, right behind you is the orange um fencing, which I can see.
4:06
SPEAKER_02: And so I have this visual reminder that um our permit, our the permit for our edition finally went through.
4:13
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
4:13
SPEAKER_02: And things are happening.
4:15
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
4:15
SPEAKER_02: I mean, it's the pre-stuff that has been happening, but I did get a message today that they're gonna break ground tomorrow.
4:21
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, my favorite you did?
4:23
SPEAKER_00: I forgot to tell you that.
4:24
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
4:24
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
4:25
SPEAKER_00: Well, I don't remember you telling me.
4:26
SPEAKER_00: I don't know if you forgot.
4:27
SPEAKER_02: So this is Who knows what actually happened.
4:30
SPEAKER_00: But that's I'm happy to they're breaking ground tomorrow?
4:32
SPEAKER_02: I that was the message that I got that everything has been cleared and they'll be breaking ground tomorrow.
4:38
SPEAKER_02: Holy shortage.
4:40
SPEAKER_02: Now I get to I've been I've been waiting around to see how much of the front and backyard is gonna get torn up before because I like I can't not garden.
4:51
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
4:52
SPEAKER_02: But like everything is in pots because I'm like, I need to be able to relocate whatever this is as quickly as possible.
4:58
SPEAKER_02: All right, so did you ever go to Disney World?
5:03
SPEAKER_02: Is that the one that's here or it's the one that's here.
5:05
SPEAKER_02: The one in Orlando.
5:06
SPEAKER_02: I've been to the one at Orlando.
5:07
SPEAKER_00: The one in Orlando.
5:08
SPEAKER_00: There's a roller coaster at Disney World called Space Mountain.
5:12
SPEAKER_02: Oh, classic.
5:13
SPEAKER_02: It's like inside and there's lights and stars.
5:16
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
5:16
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
5:16
SPEAKER_00: Yes, but it's do you recall that when you're on the roller coaster, you're in the dark.
5:22
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
5:23
SPEAKER_00: You don't, you cannot it's pretty cool.
5:26
SPEAKER_00: You can't, right?
5:26
SPEAKER_02: It actually makes me want to go to Disney as bad as that.
5:29
SPEAKER_00: No, it doesn't sound bad.
5:30
SPEAKER_00: Disney can be really fun, especially when it's not 150,000 degrees outside.
5:34
SPEAKER_02: I just feel weird going as an adult.
5:36
SPEAKER_02: No shade to the people that totally do that shit.
5:39
SPEAKER_00: Some of these are really into Disney blue.
5:41
SPEAKER_00: I know.
5:42
SPEAKER_00: I mean, like they're into it hard.
5:44
SPEAKER_00: Oh, I know.
5:45
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
5:45
SPEAKER_00: I know.
5:46
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I don't I don't have that experience.
5:48
SPEAKER_00: However, what I was, I mean, I no, I don't have anything let me say it this way.
5:51
SPEAKER_00: I don't have anything against Disney.
5:53
SPEAKER_00: I'm not really a theme park person per se, although I do occasionally enjoy them.
5:58
SPEAKER_00: I'm not a theme park person per se because we're like 10 minutes from Bush Gardens.
6:02
SPEAKER_00: I mean, you know, here's the thing those big crowds, they're not really.
6:06
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I I'm I'm the kind of person who can get a little uh crowd sick.
6:09
SPEAKER_00: Now, I know you and I have had conversations about whether crowdsick, is that a thing?
6:13
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you and I have a conversation about whether you whether you believe I remember when we first started dating.
6:17
SPEAKER_00: I have a recollection.
6:20
SPEAKER_02: She will not let me live it now.
6:23
SPEAKER_02: Because because let me let you know that my thoughts have changed.
6:28
SPEAKER_02: I just think we have a different experience around it.
6:30
SPEAKER_01: My thoughts have changed.
6:31
SPEAKER_01: That's what's happening.
6:32
SPEAKER_02: And I do think that we have a different experience around it.
6:34
SPEAKER_02: But listening to your experience is what has changed my thoughts.
6:37
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
6:38
SPEAKER_00: I can feel the record around a big crowd.
6:40
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
6:41
SPEAKER_00: Um, it's a that's a strange thing.
6:44
SPEAKER_00: And depending on their mood, I can take on the mood of the crowd too.
6:47
SPEAKER_00: I mean, I just tend to be pretty open.
6:49
SPEAKER_00: The thing I was thinking about in regards to the edition and where I'm going with this.
6:53
SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah, that's right.
6:54
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
6:54
SPEAKER_00: Our pern, that's good.
6:55
SPEAKER_00: Our Drew Hair Pern is that like knowing that we're gonna build an addition, I know it's gonna be a roller coaster, right?
7:03
SPEAKER_02: Oh my god, I know.
7:04
SPEAKER_00: Okay, so this this is where I'm going with it.
7:06
SPEAKER_00: Like, I know it's gonna be a roller coaster.
7:09
SPEAKER_00: First of all, I mean, I've counseled enough clients through an addition.
7:12
SPEAKER_00: I've done small additions onto pieces of property like I've owned.
7:16
SPEAKER_00: Or like um, well, you know, like we added the porch on here, I've added porches onto other places, I've remodeled kitchens, things like that.
7:24
SPEAKER_00: But I've not um everything that takes months.
7:26
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, changed the structure of a house.
7:28
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
7:29
SPEAKER_00: Like built on a room, yeah, demo demoed other thing, you know.
7:33
SPEAKER_00: I've never done anything to the extent of what what we're getting ready to do, which is a pretty deep remodeling, actually.
7:39
SPEAKER_00: I mean, like a third of the house is gonna be substantively different when this is done.
7:43
SPEAKER_00: So it is like it's a roller coaster, but because I've never been on it, it's like we're in the dark.
7:50
SPEAKER_00: We don't know what's gonna happen.
7:52
SPEAKER_00: We don't know what's gonna happen.
7:53
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
7:53
SPEAKER_00: So it's like, you know, the whole you're going up.
7:56
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, like I know we're going up.
7:58
SPEAKER_00: I but I don't know what what point we reach the top.
8:02
SPEAKER_00: The weird thing about Space Mountain is one I've been on it when it has broken down and they turn the lights on, and you realize what a rickety roller coaster that thing is.
8:12
SPEAKER_00: You're like, oh my god, oh no.
8:15
SPEAKER_00: So you're in there in the dark.
8:16
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I'm in there in the dark.
8:17
SPEAKER_00: Like I'm like filling it in with all kind of CGI, amazing.
8:22
SPEAKER_00: I'm in a spaceship, whatever.
8:23
SPEAKER_00: Oh no, it's not like that.
8:27
SPEAKER_00: Oh my god.
8:29
SPEAKER_00: It's a rickety thing.
8:31
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
8:31
SPEAKER_00: Anyway, yeah.
8:32
SPEAKER_00: We now have a porta potty in our front yard.
8:34
SPEAKER_00: We have a porta potty in the front yard.
8:36
SPEAKER_02: We have we've gone to a 3-3.
8:38
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
8:40
SPEAKER_02: Oh, is that a half?
8:41
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
8:41
SPEAKER_02: It's a half.
8:42
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
8:43
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
8:43
SPEAKER_02: Oh my god.
8:44
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
8:45
SPEAKER_00: So we have this great review from Nay Diggs to start us off, and uh, and then the uh update about the addition, which we're now gonna call a fun ride on Space Mountain.
8:57
SPEAKER_00: With the yikes emoji and a smiley face emoji next to it.
9:01
SPEAKER_00: But more importantly, let's get on to the idea of the episode today, which is Okay, the episode.
9:06
SPEAKER_00: Well, you know, let's start let's start with this this story.
9:08
SPEAKER_00: So Nissa and I meet, and um, I'm going over to her house to see her mom.
9:16
SPEAKER_00: I think maybe for brunch or dinner.
9:17
SPEAKER_00: I can't remember.
9:19
SPEAKER_00: And um and in the context of us starting to talk, we start, you know, her mom starts telling me about the fact that she knew some of the professors that I had when I was in graduate school.
9:31
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so my mom uh had a hair salon down the street from the university here in Tampa called University of South Florida.
9:39
SPEAKER_02: This is like the 70s and the 80s, and she had friends.
9:44
SPEAKER_02: My godmother worked at Florida Mental Health.
9:47
SPEAKER_02: Um, she had friends and colleagues and customers that came from the mental health program at USF.
9:56
SPEAKER_02: And my dad actually majored in psychology and worked at Florida Mental Health.
10:00
SPEAKER_02: So we have all of these long, like I've all that's always been a part of my family's um it's like your mythology.
10:07
SPEAKER_00: Mythology, it's part of your mythology, and part of my mythology was that it just so happened that as a same program as how it went to as a stroke of luck.
10:17
SPEAKER_00: Um, I applied to this program at University of South Florida in rehabilitation counseling, not knowing that that program had been started by some professors who were clinical psychology professors at UF who all went out to Esalin in the 70s and had these, they got deeply involved in the human potential movement.
10:33
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
10:33
SPEAKER_00: So they go out to Eslin during the human potential movement and they're training with Fritz Pearls, they're training with Gregory Bates.
10:40
SPEAKER_00: And Eslin is a human potential center and retreat center in Big Sur, California, that is very famous for its outdoor hot tubs, you know, which had uh its its naked hot tubs, which you know.
10:52
SPEAKER_00: Hold on, Kelly has to cat because there there were um they were having like um tea groups, you know, uh which were getting encounter groups in the hot tubs.
11:04
SPEAKER_00: I mean, you know.
11:05
SPEAKER_02: And uh encounter group.
11:07
SPEAKER_00: That sounds like some 1970s.
11:09
SPEAKER_00: Well, there was a lot of stuff going on in the 70s.
11:11
SPEAKER_00: Encounter groups.
11:12
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, there was there was a lot while the sexual revolution was going on, I mean, you know, women's rights and the um uh civil rights movement.
11:19
SPEAKER_00: I mean, it was a very active time in terms of exploration and breaking outside of old norms.
11:24
SPEAKER_00: And a lot of that had to do with this human potential movement as well.
11:26
SPEAKER_00: So Murray Landsman was one of these clinical psychologists that had, I would say, an awakening as a result of working with a number of folks in the human potential movement.
11:36
SPEAKER_00: He really, really loved particularly a type of psychology that's called psychosynthesis.
11:41
SPEAKER_00: Uh and if you are into that kind of thing, dear listener, if you are in the field like I am, just go look it up.
11:47
SPEAKER_00: But what I'll tell you is that it was kind of a uh model that combined ideas of spirituality along with ideas of psychology.
11:55
SPEAKER_00: So, you know, um, it wasn't exactly Jungian, but it was also really cool and it was deeply tied to the human potential movement.
12:02
SPEAKER_00: And so Murray you gave a class in the rehab counseling department that was called intentionality, which is a topic that I talk about all the time here, right?
12:11
SPEAKER_00: Like that the thing about human beings that separates us, what what wh why we're not animals, why we're human, is because we can we can choose, we have intention, we can say, I intend to do something different.
12:24
SPEAKER_00: And we may not get there, but we can intend to get there.
12:27
SPEAKER_00: We can point ourselves in the direction of change.
12:30
SPEAKER_00: We can see that we're doing something that's not working for us, and then by shifting our mindset with intentionality, which means I have an intention to move forward into something, this is how I want to show up.
12:40
SPEAKER_00: In other words, what is intentionality?
12:42
SPEAKER_00: Intentionality means I get to decide how I want to show up.
12:46
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
12:46
SPEAKER_00: And that separates us from all other animals, which is why, you know, being a human, like the Tibetans say, it's a precious gift to be a human as opposed to an ant.
12:56
SPEAKER_00: Maybe ants are sentient, but and wiggling their butts like the bees in the last episode.
13:01
SPEAKER_00: I'm a little bee wiggling my butt.
13:03
SPEAKER_00: I'm a little bee wiggling my butt.
13:06
SPEAKER_00: But they're all doing it together, and they're all doing it based on instinct, right?
13:09
SPEAKER_00: One bee can't say, you know, I'd really like to go to Connecticut.
13:15
SPEAKER_00: I had a dream last night that I was in Hartford.
13:19
SPEAKER_00: I'm heading out.
13:21
SPEAKER_00: I mean, that doesn't happen.
13:23
SPEAKER_00: Right.
13:23
SPEAKER_00: Bees don't have intentionality.
13:25
SPEAKER_00: Human beings have intentionality.
13:27
SPEAKER_00: So I go to your house, and then not only do I learn that that Scylla has taken this class, but then I go into the bathroom and there is a poster that your mom has written out in different color markers of all of Murray's slogans.
13:40
SPEAKER_00: When we took the class, we had to memorize the slogans.
13:43
SPEAKER_00: This was we had to memorize the slogans.
13:46
SPEAKER_00: That was the test.
13:48
SPEAKER_02: So yeah, so my mom, my mom was not in the psychology program.
13:54
SPEAKER_02: She may have not actually even registered for the class, but she was friends with this guy, Murray, that taught in Florida Mental Health.
14:02
SPEAKER_02: And I think that she at least she audited the class.
14:05
SPEAKER_02: She might have, I don't know what the details of that are, but she was like, Oh, it sounds like a neat class.
14:10
SPEAKER_02: I want to do that.
14:10
SPEAKER_02: And so she goes.
14:12
SPEAKER_02: And they had to do an art project.
14:13
SPEAKER_02: My understanding is that they had to do an art project.
14:15
SPEAKER_02: That Murray had all these things that he would say.
14:18
SPEAKER_02: Right.
14:19
SPEAKER_02: And I guess you guys had to memorize them, and then had to do an art project.
14:23
SPEAKER_02: So this the this poster or this art or whatever, it actually wasn't my mom that wrote it out.
14:30
SPEAKER_02: It was somebody else in the class that did this for their project, and they gave a copy to everybody in the class.
14:36
SPEAKER_02: But for me, this framed, you know, picture of sayings has been in our guest bathroom for my entire life.
14:49
SPEAKER_02: And these sayings have deeply informed my worldview.
14:54
SPEAKER_02: And so when Kelly, this new woman that I'm dating, comes to the house, we realize that the program that she graduated from is indeed still the same program that my mom had all these and my dad had all these connections with.
15:08
SPEAKER_02: But she also took classes from Murray, including this intentionality class.
15:13
SPEAKER_02: And then I gotta go, you gotta see the poster in the bathroom.
15:16
SPEAKER_02: Right.
15:16
SPEAKER_02: And I'm like, wait, Murray?
15:18
SPEAKER_00: What?
15:19
SPEAKER_00: You guys know Murray.
15:20
SPEAKER_00: Right.
15:20
SPEAKER_00: And right now I'm wearing a t-shirt.
15:22
SPEAKER_00: It just so happens.
15:24
unknown: Yeah.
15:24
SPEAKER_00: It just so happens.
15:25
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
15:25
SPEAKER_00: That I'm wearing the t-shirt for Murray's retirement party, which has a picture of Murray's face on it.
15:30
SPEAKER_00: I was at this party.
15:31
SPEAKER_00: I was probably there with your parents.
15:33
SPEAKER_02: You were probably there with the parents.
15:34
SPEAKER_02: I remember they came home and they had these shirts, and I said, Who's Murray?
15:39
SPEAKER_02: Right.
15:39
SPEAKER_02: And they're like, you know the guy with the sayings in the bathroom.
15:42
SPEAKER_02: Murray Landsman.
15:43
SPEAKER_02: We've always talked about him.
15:44
SPEAKER_00: Right.
15:45
SPEAKER_00: So your dad had two of these shirts, and I've now inherited them since he passed.
15:49
SPEAKER_00: And the shirts have a picture of Murray on them, and they say, Why worry?
15:52
SPEAKER_00: Call Murray.
15:52
SPEAKER_00: And they have a picture of his face.
15:54
SPEAKER_00: So Murray was just like this really nondescript, you know, Jewish-looking guy.
15:58
SPEAKER_00: He kind of had male pot pattern baldness, big eyes, a bigger nose, curly gray hair, right?
16:05
SPEAKER_00: Um he, when I knew him, had um, you know, and he did really have like that Eastern European is it Ashkenazi Jimmy?
16:14
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
16:17
SPEAKER_00: His features to me look that way.
16:19
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
16:19
SPEAKER_00: Um, and so and and then he his hair was white by the time I knew him.
16:24
SPEAKER_00: And uh and he had one of those rat tails.
16:27
SPEAKER_00: Oh boy.
16:28
SPEAKER_00: So I I met Murray, it was probably 1990 when I met him.
16:31
SPEAKER_00: Oh boy.
16:32
SPEAKER_00: And he would drive, okay, he would drive over from Pine Island to USF, right?
16:37
SPEAKER_00: He had a convertible, uh, I remember it as pink.
16:41
SPEAKER_00: Now it might not have been, but it was a convertible Cadillac.
16:45
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
16:45
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
16:46
SPEAKER_00: And he always drove with the top down.
16:49
SPEAKER_00: He was always drinking coffee, you know, and he he would just kind of come in in this big caddy with this big steering wheel in the front.
16:58
SPEAKER_00: Oh wow Murray was just like one of the most happy-go-lucky people I had ever known.
17:04
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
17:05
SPEAKER_00: But he was also very deep.
17:06
SPEAKER_00: He had had a lot of great suffering in his life.
17:08
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
17:08
SPEAKER_00: And um, and so he he I I he was a wonderful role model because he had been through a lot, but he just put himself in the position of being full of joy most of the time.
17:21
SPEAKER_00: Like that was his intentionality.
17:22
SPEAKER_00: He was very light and playful and um just kind of delightful to be around.
17:28
SPEAKER_00: For I I delighted really in his presence.
17:30
SPEAKER_00: And after we gr after I graduated from graduate school, we I remained friends with him until he died.
17:36
SPEAKER_00: I mean, he he was, you know, God rest him, he was a great, great person who I learned a lot from.
17:41
SPEAKER_00: His wife, Anne, taught at the graduate school also.
17:44
SPEAKER_00: And I was not as close to Anne as I was to Marie.
17:46
SPEAKER_00: I never got to know her as much, but she hung out with a lot of the female mentors who were mentoring me.
17:51
SPEAKER_00: So there was a very kind of familial vibe.
17:54
SPEAKER_00: Um, and when I and when I went into the bathroom and saw the the the the picture, I just I really couldn't believe it.
18:00
SPEAKER_00: Because it's like we've been shaped by the same teacher in completely different ways.
18:06
SPEAKER_00: Um and Yeah, it's just a weird synchronicity.
18:10
SPEAKER_00: It's just a weird synchronicity.
18:12
SPEAKER_00: Uh, because it wouldn't be as common as saying, well, I'm Lutheran.
18:17
SPEAKER_00: Oh, I'm Lutheran too.
18:19
SPEAKER_00: Then we went to the same college in the same year and had the same professors.
18:23
SPEAKER_00: I mean, it was that these were decades apart.
18:25
SPEAKER_02: It was like my parents knew him at the beginning of his career, at least as a professor, and then you were with him at the end of his career.
18:32
SPEAKER_00: Right.
18:32
SPEAKER_00: It was a very niche kind of um experience.
18:36
SPEAKER_00: And and so, you know, Murray was deeply impactful uh for me and has informed a lot of the ways that I approach counseling, actually.
18:43
SPEAKER_00: And I think one of the reasons that I really liked his teachings is that they're very simple and easy to understand.
18:48
SPEAKER_00: Like the I love slogans.
18:50
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
18:51
SPEAKER_00: I love slogans because pretty much I'm a ding-ding.
18:53
SPEAKER_00: I mean, you know, I I I have to be I have to learn things repeatedly, and I have to learn them in really, really simple format, right?
19:04
SPEAKER_00: I mean, you know, I've shared with the with the listeners and with you before that I had a long history of going to 12-step meetings.
19:10
SPEAKER_00: And 12-step meeting slogans are are big, right?
19:13
SPEAKER_00: Uh, one day at a time, easy does it, uh, let go and let God.
19:19
SPEAKER_00: Uh, these these are these are all slogans that that you know are used a lot in in uh the 12-step rooms.
19:24
SPEAKER_00: And because I had grown up that way, by the time I got to Murray, it was just a couple years after I'd started that.
19:29
SPEAKER_00: And so I was used to this idea of using slogans.
19:32
SPEAKER_00: Also, what I didn't know is that there's a there's a tradition in Buddhism, the Lozheng trainings.
19:37
SPEAKER_00: And the Lozong trainings are all based on slogans.
19:40
SPEAKER_00: Oh wow.
19:41
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I was just sitting here thinking it would be really cool to to take Murray slogans and compare then contrast them to the Lozhong training.
19:47
SPEAKER_00: I know it's it makes sense.
19:57
SPEAKER_00: I think that there were things going on with Murray that at the time I didn't I couldn't have or wouldn't have ever known because I was a kid.
20:03
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
20:04
SPEAKER_00: I was 19 when I met him.
20:06
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
20:06
SPEAKER_00: You know?
20:07
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
20:08
SPEAKER_00: I I was I was just trying to figure out like was the was the hot donuts now sign on at Krispy Kreme.
20:13
SPEAKER_00: Uh-huh.
20:14
SPEAKER_00: And could I get that girl to come over to my house?
20:18
SPEAKER_00: With the donuts.
20:20
SPEAKER_00: With the donuts.
20:22
SPEAKER_00: This is my idea of a date at 19.
20:24
SPEAKER_00: This is my idea of a date at 19.
20:26
SPEAKER_00: Hey, do you want to go see if the hot donuts now sign as well?
20:33
SPEAKER_00: Then we can come back to my my apartment and look at books about the goddess.
20:37
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
20:42
SPEAKER_01: That's hilarious.
20:44
SPEAKER_01: Oh my God.
20:45
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so I mean, I was not really intellectually sophisticated at this point.
20:50
SPEAKER_00: So I I wonder what I wonder now, you know, I'm I'm wondering even more that we're talking about it, maybe what some of his influences were.
20:59
SPEAKER_00: Totally.
21:00
SPEAKER_02: Like, was is that is that this technique of using slogans as a way of um teaching truth in a way that sticks, something that he was consciously intentionally using.
21:15
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
21:16
SPEAKER_00: I you know, I'm guessing.
21:17
SPEAKER_00: It's a question.
21:18
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
21:18
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I'm guessing so.
21:19
SPEAKER_00: Because I I know that he was also really influenced by the work in neurolinguistic programming, and he was a very master communicator himself.
21:27
SPEAKER_00: Um and so part of the part of the strength of what happened in NLP, just the sh briefly.
21:33
SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's a lot of things.
21:33
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I wanted to briefly neurolinguistic programming was based on um, you know, there were there were there were two um it was Bandler and Grinder who came up with NLP.
21:43
SPEAKER_00: They looked at what who they thought were master communicators.
21:46
SPEAKER_00: They used Virginia Satir, who was my original mentor, uh Fritz Pearls, and um, there was one more.
21:55
SPEAKER_00: Milton Erickson, who was a hypnotist.
21:58
SPEAKER_00: So they looked at those three communicators.
22:00
SPEAKER_00: In the way that they were able to sort of like masterfully get people to help people to change, you know.
22:05
SPEAKER_00: And what they realized was that they communicated, they were able to identify patterns in their communication, and then they were able to teach those patterns in a replicable form to other therapists.
22:14
SPEAKER_00: And I studied a lot of NLP.
22:16
SPEAKER_03: Interesting.
22:17
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I studied a lot of NLP.
22:18
SPEAKER_00: And I think Murray did too.
22:19
SPEAKER_00: So anyway, what what Nyssa and I decided was that it would be like fun for us.
22:25
SPEAKER_00: I mean, just to really because the sayings are so rich and because they're a shared history that we have, that it would be fun for us to explore them.
22:32
SPEAKER_00: So it's like we're gonna deeply explore them together with you.
22:36
SPEAKER_00: And um and and then that's how many episodes it takes.
22:41
SPEAKER_00: And so we're just gonna go down the thing, right?
22:44
SPEAKER_00: Talk about slogan by slogan.
22:46
SPEAKER_02: Um Space Mountain ride.
22:48
SPEAKER_02: Right.
22:48
SPEAKER_02: We don't know where this is gonna go, how this is gonna go.
22:52
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
22:52
SPEAKER_00: Let's talk about the first slogan that you want to.
22:54
SPEAKER_00: Okay, so here's the first slogan.
22:55
SPEAKER_00: I do.
22:56
SPEAKER_00: First slogan.
22:58
SPEAKER_00: Quote Everything you've done in life prepared you for this moment.
23:04
SPEAKER_00: That's the first one.
23:06
SPEAKER_02: The first one.
23:07
SPEAKER_02: So I I just I just want to paint a little picture of little Nyssa who was very excited to learn to read.
23:16
SPEAKER_02: And once I learned to read, I wanted to read everything.
23:19
SPEAKER_02: I would literally read everything.
23:21
SPEAKER_02: I mean, I spent so many, so many hours reading the liner notes in the tape or CDs in my dad's car while we're driving.
23:30
SPEAKER_02: And so I would go through each of these sayings regularly.
23:34
SPEAKER_02: And then, of course, if I did not know what something meant, I would I probably ask my parents what every single one of these means.
23:41
SPEAKER_02: Wow as a kid.
23:42
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
23:43
SPEAKER_02: And so, again, I'm five years old.
23:47
SPEAKER_02: Everything I've done in life has prepared me for this moment.
23:54
SPEAKER_01: Uh-huh.
23:54
SPEAKER_02: It was so interesting to let that sink in because my life hadn't been very long, but it also was the totality of my life at that time.
24:02
SPEAKER_02: Right.
24:03
SPEAKER_02: And I mean, I um Yeah, I mean, learning to read prepared me for that moment.
24:12
SPEAKER_03: Uh-huh.
24:12
SPEAKER_02: I mean, it definitely hits different now because many other things in my life have prepared me for this moment.
24:18
SPEAKER_03: Right.
24:20
SPEAKER_02: But I don't know, it really it uh it sort of propelled me into some sort of existential um reflection as a young kid.
24:28
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, that's that's so good.
24:32
SPEAKER_02: I can imagine I guess maybe it also like put in there the idea that everything that happens to me is preparing me for a future moment.
24:40
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
24:41
SPEAKER_02: Which does um create a little space.
24:44
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it create it does.
24:46
SPEAKER_00: Creates a little mental space, right?
24:48
SPEAKER_00: Creates that space around the narrative so that you could maybe point yourself in a different direction with intentionality, which is with intentionality, right?
24:56
SPEAKER_00: So it's like I think the slogans are interruption technologies that you know kind of point us to a different part of reality and then can help us become more conscious, more in the moment, more more awake, more alive, more vibrant.
25:10
SPEAKER_00: Um and I I think that so when I when I first heard it, yeah, when I first heard it, what I remember thinking was, um oh, at that point I was very kind of attached to my diagnostic labels.
25:28
SPEAKER_00: Like I had had a couple at this point in my life of things that I thought that were wrong with me, yeah, and diagnoses that I had given myself, uh-huh.
25:37
SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, that had to do with um a label where I saw myself as a trauma survivor.
25:45
SPEAKER_02: Uh-huh.
25:46
SPEAKER_00: And I still acknowledge that I have survived trauma, but I think at that point I was seeing myself like attached to the label.
25:54
SPEAKER_00: I just the label I was the label.
25:56
SPEAKER_00: You were the label, okay.
25:58
SPEAKER_00: You know, and I had other ones too.
26:00
SPEAKER_00: Sure.
26:01
SPEAKER_00: You know.
26:02
SPEAKER_00: Um that was kind of popular at that time, and actually it's popular now.
26:06
SPEAKER_00: Well, it's like people say my anxiety.
26:08
SPEAKER_00: My anxiety.
26:09
SPEAKER_00: And uh, you know, it's kind of like these diagnostic labels then becoming uh you know, maybe they become excuses.
26:18
SPEAKER_02: Well, doesn't that start to get into um secondary gains?
26:23
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, maybe they become secondary gain is a is uh probably a kinder way of saying excuse.
26:29
SPEAKER_00: Um and it's a lot of people.
26:33
SPEAKER_00: It is a more clinical way of saying excuse.
26:37
SPEAKER_00: But I think it is none it nonetheless they're pointing at the same thing.
26:40
SPEAKER_00: So secondary gain means that you get something out of a be a behavior.
26:44
SPEAKER_00: You get something out of being sick, right?
26:46
SPEAKER_00: Or you know, if if if I if I say I have a sore throat, and maybe I even do have a little tickle in my throat, but I exaggerate that because I really don't want to go to school.
26:55
SPEAKER_00: The secondary gain for all everything that went into the secondary gain for having a sore throat, the secondary gain for exaggerating a sore throat, you know, is I get to stay home from school.
27:04
SPEAKER_02: Oh, you might get ice cream.
27:05
SPEAKER_00: I might get ice cream, I might get more attention, you know, whatever.
27:08
SPEAKER_00: So secondary gain.
27:09
SPEAKER_00: You won't be expected to tradition.
27:11
SPEAKER_00: I mean, the the classic thing that's talked about in psychology around that is um, you know, people who go on disability insurance, for example.
27:18
SPEAKER_00: There's some people who really need disability insurance and they need it forever, and God bless them, and I want that to be there for them.
27:24
SPEAKER_00: But what can happen sometimes is people maybe just need to be on short-term disability.
27:28
SPEAKER_00: But because they receive gain from being on disability, namely a check, not having to work, other types of attention, etc., maybe then they start to malinger or foment the the, you know, they they sort of perpetuate it.
27:41
SPEAKER_00: Perpetuate it.
27:42
SPEAKER_00: And that might be don't want to get better.
27:44
SPEAKER_00: And it's probably not even it's in some instances, it's not even conscious.
27:47
SPEAKER_00: I think there are some people who are just scamming the system and they're fighting sick.
27:50
SPEAKER_00: I'm not talking about people who are faking sick.
27:52
SPEAKER_00: Secondary gain is described as more of an unconscious mechanism.
27:55
SPEAKER_00: It's like the person doesn't really know that that's what's happening.
27:58
SPEAKER_00: Right.
27:58
SPEAKER_00: And I think perhaps the first time I heard this, I sort of realize I did realize, okay, these things were traumas, but they also prepared me.
28:07
SPEAKER_00: Right.
28:07
SPEAKER_00: It helped me to think about them differently.
28:09
SPEAKER_00: Right.
28:11
SPEAKER_00: Um and it it woke it, you know, it w it woke me up to that, that shift from um this happened to me versus this is mine to use.
28:28
SPEAKER_00: Like this happened to me versus this is mine to use.
28:33
SPEAKER_00: What do you think about the phraseology this happened for me?
28:37
SPEAKER_00: You know, I think in in certain instances, this is the Byron Cady.
28:41
SPEAKER_00: I think in certain instances it can Oh Byron Cady.
28:43
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
28:43
SPEAKER_00: I think in certain instances it can be very useful.
28:46
SPEAKER_00: I think in other in other instances it can lead to blaming the victim.
28:50
SPEAKER_00: And so I think that with slogans like this, I think it's just important to ha hold the nuance, you know.
28:57
SPEAKER_00: Hold hold that that's partially true.
28:59
SPEAKER_00: Right.
28:59
SPEAKER_00: That probably happened to you and for you.
29:02
SPEAKER_00: And um if you don't necessarily have to happen for you.
29:06
SPEAKER_00: Like there, there, there are there is, you know, like I I have uh you know, like I've like the idea that we always have to find something positive in in negative events is a form of oppression in and of itself.
29:22
SPEAKER_00: Whoa.
29:23
SPEAKER_02: So I like to get some big words.
29:27
SPEAKER_02: Well, I no, I think I think you're totally right.
29:29
SPEAKER_02: I think you're you're really calling it out.
29:34
SPEAKER_00: Well, I I've been thinking about these things for a long time.
29:37
SPEAKER_00: And the way the way that I thought about them when I was 19 is different than the way that I think about them now.
29:42
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
29:43
SPEAKER_00: And um the thing I like about a slogan like this is that it is it takes a position.
29:50
SPEAKER_00: It takes a position, and then I have an opportunity to argue it.
29:54
SPEAKER_00: Sure.
29:56
SPEAKER_02: And learn from that.
29:59
SPEAKER_02: So what I'm understanding is that when you heard the slogan at 19, yeah.
30:06
SPEAKER_02: Um when you had some some labels that you were, you know, trying on.
30:14
SPEAKER_02: Right.
30:15
SPEAKER_02: Um Yeah, did it make you how what did it change your relationship to the labels?
30:28
SPEAKER_02: It did.
30:30
SPEAKER_00: It did.
30:31
SPEAKER_00: It did.
30:32
SPEAKER_00: And it helped me to make that shift in my mind of that that that this that this happened to me versus this is mine to use.
30:39
SPEAKER_02: This is mine to use.
30:40
SPEAKER_00: It helped me to have a sense of responsibility.
30:43
SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, like um, I I learned to say it to myself like this.
30:53
SPEAKER_00: I'm not responsible for this happening to me, but I am responsible to it now that I know it.
30:59
SPEAKER_00: Oh wow.
31:07
SPEAKER_00: So it's a slogan that is not particularly comforting.
31:11
SPEAKER_02: Everything you've done in life prepared you for this moment.
31:14
SPEAKER_00: Right?
31:15
SPEAKER_00: I mean, this is definitely um not a this is a demanding slogan, I think, right?
31:21
SPEAKER_02: Well, and I'm thinking too of like, okay, like I'm I'm getting ready to get married.
31:28
SPEAKER_02: I think about the slogan, that means it means something.
31:32
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
31:33
SPEAKER_02: Um I'm doing the dishes on a random Tuesday, and I think about this slogan.
31:42
SPEAKER_02: What that does for me is it like getting married, it's a big moment.
31:49
SPEAKER_02: But what happens when I think about the slogan in everyday moments?
31:53
SPEAKER_02: It kind of makes them less everyday.
31:56
SPEAKER_02: Like it kind of gives them a weight of like, whoa, everything I've done in life prepared me for this moment.
32:08
SPEAKER_02: To be here and be present or not with myself while I'm doing the dishes, thinking about what I'm thinking about.
32:15
SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
32:15
SPEAKER_02: It it it sort of it I don't know, it gives a mean there's like a meaning.
32:22
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
32:23
SPEAKER_02: To more everyday things.
32:24
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
32:25
SPEAKER_02: Because everything that I did in life prepared me for those moments.
32:28
SPEAKER_02: Like the those moments we're being prepared for, also.
32:32
SPEAKER_00: Or something.
32:34
SPEAKER_00: The image that just came to my mind is that this slogan, it's like this slogan makes the bed for the moment.
32:39
SPEAKER_00: It it just makes the moment, it it turns it does something different.
32:43
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it makes the bed for the moment, it it brings intentionality to the moment in different in a different way.
32:48
SPEAKER_00: And the intentionality, it's like what's being asked of you with that slogan.
32:52
SPEAKER_00: Well, it's like show up with the authority that you have.
32:58
SPEAKER_02: And also, like, then it means that what I'm doing, not only what I have done in the past prepare me for this moment, but it implies to me that what I'm doing right now is preparing myself for future moments.
33:14
SPEAKER_02: And so then what I do right now matters.
33:16
SPEAKER_03: Mm-hmm.
33:18
SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
33:19
SPEAKER_02: When on a random Tuesday, it doesn't really feel like what I do right then matters to me.
33:24
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
33:24
SPEAKER_02: Right, but my normal consciousness.
33:26
SPEAKER_00: Well, I might I think what I think about that is that I mean how I explain that, why it doesn't matter to you in that moment, is that in that moment you you've you're on you've gone unconscious.
33:36
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
33:36
SPEAKER_00: Right, right, right.
33:38
SPEAKER_02: So maybe this brings me to conciousness.
33:41
SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
33:42
SPEAKER_02: Brings me to that intentionality.
33:43
SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
33:43
SPEAKER_00: It brings you to the moment where you're awake, right?
33:45
SPEAKER_00: Because if we're not conscious, we're just gonna reenact.
33:50
SPEAKER_02: Right.
33:50
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
33:51
SPEAKER_00: We're gonna be on autopilot, right?
33:53
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, totally.
33:54
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
33:55
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
33:56
SPEAKER_00: All right.
33:56
SPEAKER_00: So slogan number two, you want to go on?
33:59
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
34:00
SPEAKER_00: Hey, stop this.
34:02
SPEAKER_01: Tid in this trying to touch buttons.
34:05
SPEAKER_01: Tidden shouldn't touch.
34:06
SPEAKER_01: Tid in his touching buttons.
34:08
SPEAKER_01: Tidden is touching buttons.
34:10
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
34:10
SPEAKER_00: All right.
34:11
SPEAKER_00: Well, I have my uh you have the squirt bottle if you need it.
34:16
SPEAKER_02: Yes, we do squirt our cats with water occasionally.
34:19
SPEAKER_00: Squirt bottle says boundaries are okay on it.
34:23
SPEAKER_00: With a smiley face.
34:24
SPEAKER_02: Boundaries are okay.
34:25
SPEAKER_02: Boundaries are okay.
34:27
SPEAKER_00: When I first when I first moved in with Nyssa, the cats were doing something, and I was like, I'm gonna get a squirt bottle and fill it up with water.
34:34
SPEAKER_00: And she said, I've read that that's not good for them.
34:37
SPEAKER_00: This was one of our initial sort of conflicts, I think.
34:40
SPEAKER_00: And I and I said, Well, you might be right, but I do think it's okay to set boundaries.
34:45
SPEAKER_00: And then I filled up a squirt bottle and put boundaries are okay with a smiley face on it.
34:50
SPEAKER_00: Now anytime we pull it out, we really laugh about it.
34:54
SPEAKER_02: So what's the next um what's the next saying?
34:57
SPEAKER_00: All right, this is a great one.
34:59
SPEAKER_00: Quote It is frequently easier to get what you want when you know what it is.
35:07
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
35:08
SPEAKER_02: Five-year-old Nissa.
35:09
SPEAKER_00: Five-year-old Nissa is like get what you want and know what it is.
35:14
SPEAKER_02: Is that why you give me the Sears catalog and a and a magic marker and tell me circle what I want for Christmas?
35:24
SPEAKER_02: Like that's a total, it's I mean my mind still goes there with like it's it is free.
35:29
SPEAKER_02: It's like every of these every one of these things is filtered through what little kit Nissa thought about it and how it made sense to her.
35:36
SPEAKER_00: It's so great because it really gives like a perspective to um It is frequently easier to get what you want.
35:44
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, cuz uh I would be like, Yeah, because I have to ask you for what I want.
35:49
SPEAKER_02: I have to ask I have to ask for it.
35:52
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
35:52
SPEAKER_00: But what do you want for Christmas?
35:57
SPEAKER_00: It's that's a really interesting place to sort of start it off.
36:00
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
36:01
SPEAKER_00: Like the pressure of the Christmas, the Christmas list.
36:04
SPEAKER_00: Now people are like, what do you want for Christmas?
36:06
SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, don't just don't make me even tell you.
36:08
SPEAKER_00: I don't even want to.
36:09
SPEAKER_00: I'm tired of telling what I want for Christmas.
36:11
SPEAKER_01: I want nothing.
36:12
SPEAKER_00: At this point, I'm just like I want to go over it, but I want to eat some cookies.
36:16
SPEAKER_00: When I was a kid, I was like, I want a daredevil tapping.
36:19
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you know.
36:22
SPEAKER_02: A bike.
36:23
SPEAKER_02: A bike.
36:24
SPEAKER_02: A CD player, yeah.
36:27
SPEAKER_02: A boombox.
36:28
SPEAKER_02: A boombox.
36:30
SPEAKER_02: Well, it is frequently I mean, this is this is like the crux of so many of my coaching sessions.
36:35
SPEAKER_00: So you see like how how I how I just went like to as an adult to I don't even want to think about what I want for Christmas.
36:42
SPEAKER_00: Yes, yes.
36:43
SPEAKER_00: Okay, so what I think this points to is something kind of universal in the human mind, which is people avoid knowing.
36:52
SPEAKER_00: Human beings avoid knowing.
36:54
SPEAKER_00: We we we have an ability to tell ourselves the truth, but we also have an ability to lie to ourselves.
37:00
SPEAKER_00: No other animal lies to themselves.
37:02
SPEAKER_00: Ants don't lie to themselves, cats don't lie to themselves, birds don't lie to themselves.
37:09
SPEAKER_00: Nobody else lies to themselves, but we do we avoid knowing.
37:17
SPEAKER_02: Even when it's something that we want.
37:19
SPEAKER_00: Yep.
37:19
SPEAKER_00: It's like that vagueness is a protection because there's a cost to naming what you want.
37:26
SPEAKER_02: And what is the cost of naming what you want?
37:29
SPEAKER_00: It forces action.
37:32
SPEAKER_00: Like if I if I have to sit and think, well, what would I really like for Christmas?
37:36
SPEAKER_00: And then I have to tell you what it is.
37:38
SPEAKER_00: I it that takes action, it takes effort because I don't care as much about things.
37:41
SPEAKER_00: It's like there's part of me that it resists all of that.
37:43
SPEAKER_00: Also, if I tell you what I want and then I don't get it There's a vulnerability, you know, there's that.
37:49
SPEAKER_00: I mean, but anyway, it forces action, it forces movement.
37:52
SPEAKER_02: If I stay in vagueness, I can just sort of Well then if you don't get what you want, it's okay because you didn't know what it was anyways.
37:59
SPEAKER_02: Right.
38:00
SPEAKER_00: Right.
38:01
SPEAKER_00: Or I can make it, I can pretend like it's okay.
38:03
SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
38:04
SPEAKER_00: I can hide behind vagueness.
38:06
SPEAKER_00: You know, I can hide behind um, well, I'm good at so many things, I don't even know what direction to take the f my future into.
38:15
SPEAKER_00: Right.
38:15
SPEAKER_00: I I mean I think that it's like there there's a lot of um I don't know, I see in a lot of young people a vagueness about their future.
38:24
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
38:24
SPEAKER_00: And I think you know, right now a lot of that is based on the fact that the economy is in such a massive change.
38:30
SPEAKER_00: We have vagueness of our our collective future at this point.
38:34
SPEAKER_00: We do, with the with the coming of AI and what's changing on the on the globe.
38:38
SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's hard to know what the workforce is going to look like even five years from now.
38:42
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
38:43
SPEAKER_00: So to imagine myself as a 25-year-old who's just gotten out of graduate school trying to figure out what direction to go next.
38:49
SPEAKER_00: Um, I c I can I I mean I can sort of feel my way into why it might be easier to just stay vague and live in my parents' uh basement.
38:58
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
38:59
SPEAKER_00: Because it protects would protect me from this unknown you know totally.
39:05
SPEAKER_00: There's a lot of unknowns.
39:07
SPEAKER_00: There are more unknowns.
39:08
SPEAKER_00: I think there's less certainty than there has been, particularly for young people.
39:11
SPEAKER_00: So it's got to feel like Space Mountain, like they're stepping onto a ride and they can't really see where it's going.
39:17
SPEAKER_00: I think in my generation it was pretty clear.
39:20
SPEAKER_00: You got a graduate degree, you could get a you could get some kind of decent professional license and you could go off and use it, and it wouldn't put you into too much debt, and you wouldn't be able to pay it off.
39:30
SPEAKER_00: You could afford to pay off your student loan and da da da da.
39:33
SPEAKER_00: But I think in your generation, millennials are still paying off their student loans.
39:36
SPEAKER_00: A hundred percent.
39:37
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, because of the way that education uh boomed and uh incre, you know, inflated its cost so much.
39:43
SPEAKER_00: So anyway, that's just an example about how vagueness could protect a person, right?
39:48
SPEAKER_03: Mm-hmm.
39:50
SPEAKER_02: So it is frequently easier to get what you want when you know what it is.
39:54
SPEAKER_02: This is one of those things too where it's like it the cat is just laying over all of our equipment.
40:02
SPEAKER_02: This is what cats do.
40:04
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
40:05
SPEAKER_02: Also, it's itin knows what he wants, which is he wants kibble.
40:09
SPEAKER_02: He wants kibble.
40:10
SPEAKER_02: And he's letting us know that that is what he wants.
40:13
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
40:13
SPEAKER_02: And he will get it eventually.
40:15
SPEAKER_02: But if he just laid there and not did anything, I mean, eventually I'd be like, dude, you need to eat.
40:21
SPEAKER_02: But yeah, no, it is frequently easier to get what you want when you know what it is.
40:25
SPEAKER_02: I think sometimes too, I mean, what I see with people is they Yeah, sometimes they don't even know they they know that what they want is not this.
40:37
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, right.
40:38
SPEAKER_02: But they don't know what the the next thing that they want is, or they might know the big idea of what it is that they want.
40:45
SPEAKER_02: They want to buy a house, let's say.
40:48
SPEAKER_02: Um but when it comes to like actually knowing more details, like where do they want to live, how much do they want to spend, all these other details of like getting to there, um, are vague.
41:06
SPEAKER_02: So it's it's like in some ways you need to know all the different parts of what it is that you want, or at least have some idea.
41:13
SPEAKER_00: Well, you know, I was thinking about this slogan, and then I was playing it against um what we were talking about, and I can't remember if it was even I think it was in the last aired episode anyway, where we were talking about the idea of doing the next relevant thing.
41:26
SPEAKER_00: Uh-huh.
41:26
SPEAKER_00: That that's the slogan in Zen in our in our tradition, instead of do the next right thing, it's do the next relevant thing.
41:31
SPEAKER_00: Uh-huh.
41:32
SPEAKER_00: And I was thinking sometimes I'm not really clear with the specifics of what I want, but I have an idea about the general direction.
41:39
SPEAKER_00: Right.
41:39
SPEAKER_00: And when I move in the idea, when I move towards the general direction and I just keep doing the next relevant thing as I'm moving in that direction, often what I want will gain in clarity.
41:51
SPEAKER_00: But if I don't move towards it with the idea of the general direction, which is the intentionality, like in other words, uh-huh.
41:59
SPEAKER_00: Okay, so I have an intentionality, which is the general direction, and then I just keep doing the next relevant thing on the it would that's in line with the intention, which is knowing what it is that I want.
42:11
SPEAKER_00: So, in other words, if okay, I know that I I want to um, you know, experience more mental freedom and peace.
42:19
SPEAKER_00: And maybe I there are a lot of ways to point myself in that direction, and there are a lot of steps that I could take, but I keep doing the next relevant thing to point myself towards what that might look like broadly, because then along the way, I'm gonna, there are gonna be steps that I'll that I'll learn other things I want.
42:36
SPEAKER_00: It's like along the way, I'm gonna be learning also more information.
42:40
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, because I'm gonna be experiencing those things.
42:42
SPEAKER_00: Totally.
42:43
SPEAKER_00: And sometimes I don't know what I want until I taste it.
42:46
SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
42:46
SPEAKER_00: Right?
42:47
SPEAKER_00: It's like going out to dinner and somebody orders something different on the menu.
42:50
SPEAKER_00: And and I and I think, ooh, I never would have thought to order that.
42:54
SPEAKER_00: And then I take a bite and it's like that is what I want next time.
42:58
SPEAKER_00: Uh-huh.
43:01
SPEAKER_02: Well, and also I'm thinking about how he says it's frequently easier to get what you want when you know what it is.
43:08
SPEAKER_02: He doesn't say always.
43:11
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, exactly.
43:12
SPEAKER_02: Right.
43:13
SPEAKER_02: And so I feel like there's a little bit of space for that not knowing.
43:17
SPEAKER_02: And it does point me to where you were talking about, like, I may not know all the details of what it is that I want, but I know enough to be able to take a next step.
43:29
SPEAKER_00: Well, it's really hard to be um in a dialogue with somebody just to bring it to dialogue if if I'm hiding my own position from myself, you know, if I'm really vague about what I'm what I'm wanting.
43:43
SPEAKER_00: Um so there there is a lot in this slogan, which is also that, you know, it's it's sort of the slogan implicitly gives the recipient of the slogan a direction, which is that it's what the slogan is saying is Way.
44:00
SPEAKER_00: It's it's okay for you to want what you want.
44:04
SPEAKER_02: Ooh.
44:06
SPEAKER_02: Right.
44:06
SPEAKER_02: It's okay.
44:07
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I totally agree with you on that.
44:10
SPEAKER_00: It's okay for you to want what you want.
44:12
SPEAKER_00: And I remember in class, Murray told a story related to this slogan about a man he had been working with who was realizing in the course of his individual therapy that he was asexual.
44:27
SPEAKER_02: Uh-huh.
44:29
SPEAKER_00: He was asexual.
44:31
SPEAKER_00: And he was married and he was asexual.
44:33
SPEAKER_00: And he was realizing in the course of his therapy that he we had developed all of these symptoms because really he wasn't interested in sex.
44:40
SPEAKER_00: And he was faking in sexual interest in his wife, and he felt so um ashamed of himself.
44:48
SPEAKER_00: You know, and by the way, Murray was like notoriously flirtatious.
44:53
SPEAKER_00: I mean, he was a seventies.
44:57
SPEAKER_00: He was very, I mean, you know, he just was always, you know, kind of sexy and flirty and silly, and he was a very sexy guy.
45:05
SPEAKER_00: I mean, he, you know, sex was on his radar.
45:08
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
45:08
SPEAKER_00: That was obvious being in his presence.
45:10
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
45:11
SPEAKER_00: And I suppose as a 19-year-old student, I was, you know, perhaps of interest to him in certain ways.
45:17
SPEAKER_00: Um I pee marine.
45:23
SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
45:24
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
45:25
SPEAKER_00: I think that that there was a little bit of that energy going on.
45:28
SPEAKER_00: He was always appropriate with me, but I think I think that was definitely there.
45:30
SPEAKER_00: But anyway, I I what I remember about it was it really struck me that he sat in the group and he said, you know, I I he said what I said to him in therapy was, you know, I I just feel really sad right now for you, so and so, that you're making yourself bad over what you want.
45:49
SPEAKER_00: Like it's okay for you to not to want this for yourself.
45:52
SPEAKER_00: Like and to g to give the self that kind of freedom, that kind of permission.
45:57
SPEAKER_00: That that was so much part of the human potential movement, really, was like follow your bliss, know what you want.
46:04
SPEAKER_00: It's okay to know what you want.
46:06
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
46:06
SPEAKER_00: Which stands in in in a lot of opposition to the way that human you know development or our human experience had been prior to that, which was that the city told us what to like you did what the king said.
46:17
SPEAKER_00: Right, right, right.
46:18
SPEAKER_00: You didn't do what you said to do with yourself.
46:20
SPEAKER_00: You do you did what the king said, you did what the priest said.
46:23
SPEAKER_00: Right.
46:24
SPEAKER_02: I was I'm thinking of Puritans and you know denial of pre pleasures.
46:28
SPEAKER_02: That's right.
46:29
SPEAKER_00: You follow your but you don't listen to your own internal sense of of what's right.
46:32
SPEAKER_00: You know, it's it's it was not about that.
46:34
SPEAKER_00: It was about conformity and really doing what what was what you were told to do.
46:39
SPEAKER_00: And then as the as those institutions are were crumbling during that time, the human potential movement is on the rise.
46:46
SPEAKER_00: And and we're still in that place where institutions are no longer giving us the kind of guidance that they used to.
46:52
SPEAKER_00: And we're we're left to our own internal wisdom to to move ourselves forward as a species.
46:59
SPEAKER_00: And um yeah.
47:05
SPEAKER_02: Well, uh we're we're we're about we're about at our time.
47:09
SPEAKER_02: Are we actually?
47:10
SPEAKER_00: Okay, you don't want to go into the third one?
47:12
SPEAKER_02: I think we save it.
47:13
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
47:13
SPEAKER_02: I think that we save it for this this time.
47:16
SPEAKER_02: Um so this is the the first of a unknown number of series.
47:21
SPEAKER_02: Um I imagine it'll go on for the next couple weeks of talking about all of the different sayings that Murray Lansman has left us with.
47:31
SPEAKER_02: Oh, yeah, they're so good.
47:33
SPEAKER_02: They're so good.
47:34
SPEAKER_02: So I hope that the two that we went over today has given you something to think about in your own life, and of course, send us a message and share with us what this has brought up for you.
47:46
SPEAKER_02: And um, yeah, maybe somewhere I'll post the the poster itself and um post put the slogans in the show notes or something.
47:57
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, really cool.
47:59
SPEAKER_00: Um it would be cool to post it on on the on the algorithm.
48:02
SPEAKER_02: But I'm really excited to share to share this um this part of our shared history with you all.
48:09
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, for sure.
48:11
SPEAKER_00: For sure.
48:11
SPEAKER_00: It feels like uh honoring the ancestors.
48:14
SPEAKER_00: It does right.
48:15
SPEAKER_00: I mean, you know, and this this is big in my own tradition as a Buddhist, which we know we're consistently uh, you know, offering appreciation for our lineage and where our lineage comes from and the idea of transmission.
48:28
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you know, the idea of trans the mind to mind transmission, the idea of when you're around a teacher, they sort of transmit to you their mind.
48:34
SPEAKER_00: Totally.
48:34
SPEAKER_00: There's some teachers that do it just by putting, you know, looking at you in the eye.
48:38
SPEAKER_02: By making their students create art and they end up in your bathroom.
48:42
SPEAKER_00: Right.
48:42
SPEAKER_00: And so it it's very powerful to think about, you know, Marie and these teachings living on.
48:46
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
48:47
SPEAKER_00: And um and the people that they can, you know, go on to touch.
48:50
SPEAKER_00: I hope that you share these episodes with people.
48:52
SPEAKER_00: If you, you know, if you find them helpful, please like them, please subscribe, please share the episodes.
48:57
SPEAKER_00: You know, the more that you do that, the more it it uh will boost it will boost us in the algorithm so that our pod so that the pod gets out in front of more people and that's that's really our goals to get the pod out in front of more people.
49:09
SPEAKER_00: Totally.
49:09
SPEAKER_00: And um, you know, to share these messages as as as broadly as we can.
49:13
SPEAKER_02: So, yes, definitely make sure that you subscribe on whatever platform you're on.
49:18
SPEAKER_02: If you're on socials, please share this and tag us.
49:22
SPEAKER_02: Um, and if you got a couple minutes and you're on Apple Podcasts, even if you're not on Apple Podcasts, but you have an Apple phone, find the podcast app and leave us a review.
49:33
SPEAKER_02: These really, really, really help us reach more people.
49:37
SPEAKER_02: So, and of course, we'll read you on the air and give you a shout-out.
49:41
SPEAKER_02: Yes, yes, yes.
49:42
SPEAKER_02: Well, thank you all for listening to another episode of Being Different Together.