Latest / Barnyard Language / We're going to therapy! w/ Carrie Pollard of Flourish with Compassion and the NFMHA

Transcript

We're going to therapy! w/ Carrie Pollard of Flourish with Compassion and the NFMHA · Barnyard Language

• 0:00
  No tractor talk in bed.
• 0:01
  Got it.
• 0:15
  Welcome to Barnyard Language.
• 0:16
  We are Katie and Arlene, an Iowa sheep farmer, and an Ontario dairy
• 0:20
  farmer with six kids, two husbands, and a whole lot of chaos between us.
• 0:25
  So kick off your boots, reheat your coffee, and join us for
• 0:29
  some barnyard language, honest.
• 0:30
  Talk about running farms and raising families.
• 0:34
  In case your kids haven't already learned all the swears from being in the barn,
• 0:37
  it might be a good idea to put on some headphones or turn down the volume.
• 0:41
  While many of our guests are professionals, they
• 0:43
  aren't your professionals.
• 0:44
  If you need personalized advice, consult your.
• 0:49
  Welcome back to another episode of Barnyard Language.
• 0:52
  Thank you for joining us again on the podcast today.
• 0:54
  It is our special Valentine's Day episode, and our husbands
• 0:58
  are disappointed they didn't get invited back, but we have another, I
• 1:01
  don't think they're disappointed at all.
• 1:02
  You don't
• 1:02
  think there's, I don't know.
• 1:04
  My husband was curious about whether he was coming back, was
• 1:06
  Jim, Jim didn't wanna come back
• 1:07
  again.
• 1:08
  Jim looked fairly joyful at not being involved again, although I
• 1:13
  know he and Hugh are, uh, in fairly close messenger contact these days.
• 1:19
  I think they could probably
• 1:20
  just
• 1:20
  call each other if they wanna
• 1:21
  talk.
• 1:22
  Yeah,
• 1:23
  yeah, yeah.
• 1:25
  So what is going on in Iowa these days?
• 1:28
  Uh, packing Arlene.
• 1:31
  That's it.
• 1:33
  You're getting, how many bags are you're bringing?
• 1:34
  Are you just trying to get everything into one very small bag?
• 1:37
  You
• 1:37
  know I'm moving right?
• 1:39
  ? Yeah.
• 1:40
  You're, you got a passport now you're moving to Canada.
• 1:42
  That's not quite the same as a, I'm
• 1:45
  outta here, I'm gonna to Orleans Never said anything about coming back.
• 1:49
  I tend to be a horrible over packer, so I'm trying to overpack so that
• 1:52
  then I can unpack like two thirds of it and pack like a normal human.
• 1:56
  This is my, got it.
• 1:57
  My approach this time.
• 1:58
  So we'll see how it goes.
• 2:00
  Yes.
• 2:00
  And we have put out a call to any Eastern Ontario listeners if you want
• 2:04
  to come hang out with us, you have to join the Facebook group first, cuz
• 2:07
  that's where the details are gonna be.
• 2:08
  But if you live near me, which is, you know, Eastern Ontario,
• 2:12
  then you can come and see Katie because she's going to leave Iowa.
• 2:17
  And you can come and see Arlene too, because
• 2:19
  it's not like she, yeah.
• 2:19
  She see.
• 2:20
  Yeah.
• 2:20
  Yeah.
• 2:21
  I, I still live there.
• 2:22
  How is everyone feeling?
• 2:23
  Do the kids know you're leaving?
• 2:25
  Um, I think so.
• 2:29
  it's still a while
• 2:29
  off.
• 2:30
  I usually don't tell my people until like the day before.
• 2:33
  Yeah.
• 2:34
  I hadn't told him yet.
• 2:35
  I think daddy did, uh, the boy child once he heard that there weren't
• 2:38
  any tractors and I wasn't going to the beach, he doesn't care.
• 2:43
  Yeah, I understood in that the girl child, I think she was watching TV
• 2:47
  when he told her, so I don't think she even heard him, but you know.
• 2:52
  No, I don't think they care.
• 2:54
  I heard your kids are warming up some Iowa jokes though, so that's good.
• 2:58
  Yes.
• 2:58
  Yeah.
• 2:58
  You impressive.
• 2:59
  Didn't news any Iowa jokes, but whatever.
• 3:01
  I was
• 3:02
  telling Katie the other day, my now 15 year old just turned 15 this week.
• 3:06
  That was one of our, uh, updates in our house.
• 3:08
  We had another, uh, age upgrade and he's like inches taller than me now.
• 3:13
  Um, they went on a boys' weekend to Syracuse in, uh, New York State,
• 3:18
  which isn't all that far from us.
• 3:20
  And so my husband took the three boys and they spent the,
• 3:22
  the weekend down there just to.
• 3:25
  Have a change of scenery, do something different.
• 3:28
  So I asked my 15 year old, what are you looking forward to
• 3:30
  doing when you're in the states?
• 3:31
  And uh, he's like, healthcare jokes, . And I said, that's not very nice.
• 3:36
  And he said, well, that's freedom for you . So
• 3:40
  he's already ready to start.
• 3:41
  15 year old is making healthcare jokes.
• 3:44
  Yeah,
• 3:45
  that's, I, he knows about the difference in our healthcare systems.
• 3:48
  I'm not sure how much he actually knows, but he knows that it's, that it's
• 3:51
  a, a good way to make fun of people.
• 3:53
  Apparently.
• 3:55
  I don't know what he's learning on YouTube, but let's be honest.
• 3:58
  But hopefully the jokes are good.
• 3:59
  Katie, Katie can vet them.
• 4:02
  Yeah.
• 4:02
  So it's happening on your farm, Arlene.
• 4:05
  Well, we're getting a fun mix of weather.
• 4:07
  It went from minus 35 to plus five today.
• 4:11
  So good pneumonia weather for, um, animals, but I, I should
• 4:15
  knock on wood or something.
• 4:17
  Um, so far things are okay.
• 4:21
  Um, it was a really weird swing and a few things froze, but then, you
• 4:27
  know, immediately thought out and now it's weird and warm and yeah, just
• 4:31
  strange, strange weather stuff going on.
• 4:34
  Um, like I said, the boys went away for the weekend, so it was just my
• 4:37
  daughter and I here in the house for a couple days, which was kind of nice.
• 4:41
  Very quiet.
• 4:42
  And I actually set up a little podcasting, like parin setup.
• 4:47
  So we are not professionals, as any listeners will know.
• 4:51
  Um, but until this week I had been.
• 4:55
  Taking everything from its various hiding places around the house
• 4:58
  and bringing it to our toy room.
• 5:00
  And that's where I would record.
• 5:01
  And then I have to pack everything up and put it all away again.
• 5:04
  So I actually cleared out a tiny corner in a cabinet that still
• 5:07
  holds our dress up clothes, but now has a little space for me.
• 5:11
  So I have my own little laptop and my microphone and everything is set
• 5:15
  up all the time so I don't have to unpack and repack everything every
• 5:20
  time, which has been a huge bonus.
• 5:22
  And then typically my microphone and my headphones work when I log in every
• 5:27
  time, which didn't always work before.
• 5:30
  So that is a huge bonus as well.
• 5:32
  Especially because this was a busy week.
• 5:34
  We had four interviews in one week, Katie.
• 5:37
  It was a lot.
• 5:38
  It's a lot.
• 5:39
  It's a lot.
• 5:41
  Yeah.
• 5:41
  We are actually pre-recording a bit, so that'll hopefully.
• 5:47
  Swing us through some of the busier farm times because we've been so efficient
• 5:52
  through the winter and means Katie can take a break and come to Ontario too.
• 5:56
  So next week's record
• 5:57
  together in person going
• 5:59
  crazy.
• 5:59
  Yeah, we might record together in person for the first time and see each other
• 6:02
  in person for the second time ever.
• 6:05
  Can you tell We're excited?
• 6:07
  Yeah.
• 6:08
  Yay.
• 6:08
  Yeah.
• 6:09
  Yay.
• 6:10
  Anyway, um, we are excited to share this Valentine's Day episode with you and
• 6:15
  I think that you're all going to enjoy what our guest has to say, so here she is
• 6:22
  and I'm gonna interrupt you right here, Arlene.
• 6:24
  If any of our listeners thought that I was not that excited today, it's
• 6:28
  because there is a pot roast cooking in my kitchen and it is two hours past
• 6:33
  lunchtime and I am very, very hungry and it smells incredible and I've been
• 6:39
  having any, so you're difficult time sitting here smelling this damn pot roast.
• 6:44
  Fruit supper that I can't eat now anyway.
• 6:46
  Oh,
• 6:46
  sure.
• 6:46
  You can go hack a slice off.
• 6:48
  No, like it's not finished cooking.
• 6:50
  It's Oh yeah.
• 6:51
  Yuck.
• 6:52
  But it smells really, really good , so, okay.
• 6:56
  Well you can't
• 6:57
  smell the pots.
• 6:57
  I'm just wanting people to know that it's, it's not Arlene, it's me and my pot roast.
• 7:02
  That is your
• 7:03
  energy equates to Yes.
• 7:05
  What's in the slow cooker.
• 7:07
  Yeah.
• 7:09
  . All right.
• 7:10
  Here she is.
• 7:12
  Today we are talking to Carrie Pollard, who's joining us from Ontario for a
• 7:16
  very special Valentine's Day episode.
• 7:19
  So Carrie, we start each of our interviews with the same question.
• 7:22
  And as you probably know, this is the way to introduce yourself to our listeners.
• 7:25
  And we always ask, what are you growing?
• 7:26
  So for our farming guests, that's crops and livestock, but also kids and
• 7:31
  businesses and lots of other things.
• 7:32
  So Carrie, what are you growing?
• 7:35
  Well, we're grain farmers here.
• 7:36
  We're just, our farm is north of Guelph, Ontario, and so we grow
• 7:40
  soybeans, wheat, and corn primarily.
• 7:43
  Um, obviously all of our fields are covered in snow and freezing rain
• 7:46
  specifically today, but, but that's the crops that we primarily grow.
• 7:50
  Um, we're also growing five children and ranging in age from one to 14,
• 7:56
  so quite a, quite a space there.
• 7:58
  And we have a best at home puppy as well.
• 8:01
  Uh, so basically most of my days are filled with, uh, cleaning up a lot of
• 8:06
  poo and cleaning up a lot of messes.
• 8:07
  Like that would be, uh, probably 60%, I would say at least of my
• 8:11
  day is, is doing that kind of work.
• 8:13
  Um, and I'm also, um, helping to grow two different businesses.
• 8:17
  I've started my own private practice flourish with compassion psychotherapy,
• 8:20
  um, and I've helped co-found the National Farmer Mental Health Alliance.
• 8:24
  So we're, we're trying to grow those as well.
• 8:27
  that is a lot
• 8:27
  of different things all at the same time.
• 8:30
  ? Yes.
• 8:32
  . So Carrie, how did you get into psychotherapy and what, um, what
• 8:37
  training do you have specifically for working with couples?
• 8:41
  Uh, they've written a lot of books on, uh, couples work and family work.
• 8:46
  They have 40 plus years of experience, uh, researching couple work, but
• 8:51
  also working with, I think they said something like 3000 couples.
• 8:55
  And so I really value their insights and all of.
• 8:59
  The techniques and skills that they encourage people to develop are really
• 9:02
  simple, really strengths focused, and it just really resonates with my
• 9:05
  own personal experience, even just in my relationship with my husband.
• 9:08
  And so you'll find today, whenever I'm asked a question, I might be
• 9:12
  doing like a little plug for, for the Gottman's just because they are near
• 9:15
  and dear to my heart and I really value their, their insight and couples work.
• 9:19
  But I will say with the things that I do answer today, um, all of
• 9:23
  that is really based on my personal experience and of course some of
• 9:26
  my training, but it's everybody's relationship experience is unique.
• 9:30
  So it's not meant to be therapeutic advice by any means.
• 9:33
  And I love how you ta you start your podcast and just encourage
• 9:37
  people to consult their people.
• 9:39
  Um, so if anyone is listening today and they do really feel like they need
• 9:42
  some support in their relationships, whether it be with their spouse or
• 9:45
  their family members, um, encourage you to go to the National Farmer
• 9:48
  Mental Health Alliance Resources page.
• 9:50
  Uh, we list all the kinds of resources that can be available both
• 9:53
  in Canada and the US that are, are available for farmers specifically.
• 9:58
  So we already had your co-founder of the National Farmer's Mental Health
• 10:02
  Alliance on, at a previous episode for, but for people who haven't caught
• 10:06
  up on every single episode, can you give like a brief outline of what that
• 10:09
  is and why the two of you started it?
• 10:12
  Yeah, absolutely.
• 10:13
  So, uh, Loren and I connected, um, maybe about a year and a half ago.
• 10:18
  We had been, uh, connecting with a similar farm organization to offer some workshops
• 10:24
  and we just connected right away.
• 10:26
  We recognized the gap and the need, uh, for providing basically mental health
• 10:31
  supports for farmers specifically.
• 10:33
  And what we, we noticed the gap is specifically having therapists
• 10:37
  that have that farm experience.
• 10:39
  So have lived the farm life, either our farmers or from farm
• 10:43
  families, um, or currently farming, and my case of farming partner.
• 10:47
  And so, It's having that kind of unique experience and also, uh,
• 10:52
  working as a therapist really does help kind of understand the
• 10:55
  unique stressors and pressures that, that for Families Center Go.
• 10:59
  And so we collaborated together to create the National Farmer
• 11:02
  Mental Health Alliance.
• 11:02
  And what we do is we do offer, um, to.
• 11:06
  Resources and supports to agricultural organizations like
• 11:08
  workshops as well as articles.
• 11:10
  And we also, uh, are providing something called agriculture Informed Therapy to
• 11:15
  other therapists and life coaches so that they can also, uh, ha come into,
• 11:21
  uh, their work with their farm clients with an more informed perspective.
• 11:25
  Yeah,
• 11:26
  I think that's really important work, and I'm, I'm excited about the, the
• 11:29
  connections that the two of you are are making and I hope that that.
• 11:34
  expands from here.
• 11:36
  So the main reason we had you on today is because we thought Valentine's Day
• 11:40
  last year we had our own spouses on, and not saying that we need therapy
• 11:43
  necessarily, but we thought that this was a good way to, to also celebrate
• 11:48
  Valentine's Day and acknowledge that farm couples do have unique challenges if
• 11:52
  you're in a, a partnership of some kind.
• 11:55
  And so I feel like one of the beginning questions for a lot of people is one, how
• 12:01
  do you get your partner to go to therapy if you think you need to go to therapy
• 12:05
  and how do you know if you need therapy?
• 12:07
  So those are kind of different questions, but, but the kind of the
• 12:10
  basis of when should you go and how do you get someone else to agree to go
• 12:16
  well, and I think they are so interconnected, right?
• 12:19
  And so I think in terms of who can benefit, I think anybody
• 12:22
  can, like, in terms of our relationships, They're hard work.
• 12:26
  Um, you know, I think any relationship is hard work, but farming relationships,
• 12:30
  there can be additional stresses of having long hours, a lot of pressure,
• 12:35
  a lot of demands, and a lot of time your partner is also your coworker.
• 12:39
  Um, and so having such significant overlap, it can just be really
• 12:43
  helpful to make time and space to kind of work through personal issues.
• 12:47
  But even sometimes, especially like when you're considering succession planning
• 12:51
  and other challenges, it, it can be farm related as well, where you just kind
• 12:56
  of really need some support to resolve any kind of conflict or confusion.
• 13:00
  Um, I often think of it like, you just wanna, sometimes you can just go
• 13:03
  into it just as like, like a tune-up.
• 13:04
  Maybe everything's kind of flowing really well, but it would just be nice
• 13:07
  to improve these small little things.
• 13:09
  And so just like we might, I know this time of the year we're made.
• 13:13
  Basically maintaining all of our machinery so that it's
• 13:16
  ready to go for planting season.
• 13:17
  And so it's not that there's any specific problem, but we're trying to
• 13:20
  do some troubleshooting to make sure that we don't discover a problem,
• 13:24
  uh, right in the middle of planting.
• 13:25
  And so I think it's similar with relationships.
• 13:27
  Sometimes just having, uh, a therapist that you feel comfortable with to go to
• 13:32
  on a semi-regular basis can just be a way to keep making sure that the, your
• 13:36
  relationship is flowing well in terms of getting your partner to therapy.
• 13:40
  That is a tricky one.
• 13:41
  I mean, we don't have control over anyone but ourselves, and so it's not something
• 13:46
  you can certainly force anyone into.
• 13:48
  That being said, I'm a big fan of strategic communication.
• 13:51
  Uh, I call it strategic and in the sense that manipulative sounds really bad.
• 13:56
  So strategic is just meant by getting a buy-in, right?
• 14:00
  And so I think a lot of times when we w you know, I find people, when they
• 14:04
  approach their partner, it's like, you're doing this, so we need to go,
• 14:08
  you need to go get help over this.
• 14:10
  And instead, I think if you approach it as a we issue, We're having
• 14:13
  problems communicating right now.
• 14:16
  Um, we're having troubles connecting.
• 14:17
  We're not, you know, we're not connecting on a physical level and I miss that, you
• 14:21
  know, just going into it with a we problem and kind of joining with that, that
• 14:25
  challenge can really reduce defensiveness with your partner and might increase the
• 14:29
  likelihood that they'll, they'll wanna go.
• 14:31
  And then I think it's never harmful to kind of sweeten the deal afterwards.
• 14:34
  Um, if you have kids like me, it would be kind of like,
• 14:37
  let's go for dinner afterwards.
• 14:39
  Like, let's have some uninterrupted time away from the kids and then like, let's
• 14:42
  do something we could enjoy afterwards.
• 14:45
  I like that to the, um, making it a little less onerous to go to therapy.
• 14:51
  So if someone has never gone to couples therapy, what can they expect?
• 14:55
  And it seems like that fear of, you know, for those of us who've gone to therapy
• 15:01
  before, like couples therapy is still a stressful idea, but I'm sure for folks
• 15:07
  who've never gone, it's gotta be a real.
• 15:12
  , um, not super appealing thing to do with your life every year.
• 15:18
  Very small amount of time away from
• 15:20
  the farm.
• 15:22
  Exactly.
• 15:23
  And I think, I think that's important to recognize, like it's just any
• 15:27
  kind of, even doing individual therapy can be really difficult.
• 15:31
  It's, it's one of those things where you go into it hoping to feel
• 15:33
  better, but sometimes initially as you're kind of opening up really
• 15:37
  painful things, either individually or as a couple, it's really hard.
• 15:42
  And so to dedicate really limited time to that can be really challenging.
• 15:47
  Cuz after, after a really difficult couple session, two people might
• 15:51
  feel really vulnerable and raw and like maybe even more agitated and
• 15:54
  then have to head back to work.
• 15:56
  And so I think part of the way of kind of preparing for, it's just
• 15:59
  recognizing that creating change is hard.
• 16:02
  And, and that's kind of what therapy is.
• 16:04
  Therapy is kind of a blend of having a safe place to talk through things.
• 16:08
  But it's also a space to create change cuz you're often going because there's
• 16:11
  something that you want to be a little bit different or maybe a lot different.
• 16:15
  And so I think just kind of going into it, knowing that it's probably
• 16:18
  gonna be hard work, but farming is hard and, and it's worth it.
• 16:21
  So, you know, I think that it's, it's just recognizing that to create the
• 16:25
  kind of change that you desire, it can really be helpful in terms of like what
• 16:29
  to expect from a practical standpoint.
• 16:31
  Um, every therapist kind of work a little bit different.
• 16:33
  Like when I work with couples, I generally meet with them together cuz I
• 16:37
  just wanna make sure that I don't seem bias towards one person over the other.
• 16:41
  And so my first meeting will be meeting with two people together.
• 16:44
  We'll often just kind of get a a a general sense of what the problem story is,
• 16:48
  like what's going on, what's not working right from each other's perspective.
• 16:53
  And then we'll move into what, what is it that you're looking for, right?
• 16:56
  So we kind of move more to a story of hope and kind of get a sense of what,
• 17:00
  what each person would like more of.
• 17:02
  And what you can expect too is just kind of having uninterrupted time.
• 17:05
  And I think that's so rare, like, My husband and I can never create, complete
• 17:09
  a conversation without an interruption.
• 17:10
  He might get a text, excuse me, for, you know, for seed sale or he, you
• 17:16
  know, one of the kids for sure interrupt us undoubtedly, probably repeatedly.
• 17:21
  So to get a uninterrupted time to have like full, complete
• 17:24
  sentences, a full conversation.
• 17:26
  And then couples therapy.
• 17:27
  I think like when I saw it on tv, I remember seeing this one episode on
• 17:31
  this old TV show when I was a kid, and they both had these like rubber
• 17:34
  bats and they were kinda like hitting each other as a way of like working
• 17:37
  through their anger with each other.
• 17:38
  And couples therapy isn't like that at all.
• 17:40
  I mean, it's the, the therapist isn't there to break up the fights.
• 17:44
  The therapist is really just there to kind of help you understand each other.
• 17:46
  And a lot of times what's happening is this, when we're communicating
• 17:49
  with our partners, , we're not hearing what they're saying.
• 17:53
  We're just listening to respond rather than listening to understand.
• 17:56
  Um, and so sometimes just having another person in that room with you to help
• 18:00
  interpret what's going on with each of you just really increases that understanding,
• 18:04
  which then can increase the connection.
• 18:06
  And I often think that's my role as a therapist is like to really
• 18:09
  get people to hear each other,
• 18:12
  it seems like too, it's good to have that pressure to act like a grownup
• 18:20
  when you're having those conversations.
• 18:22
  Because if it's already really hard to get the time to have a conversation and
• 18:26
  it's a conversation you don't want to be having, it can be really easy to justify
• 18:32
  letting yourself get distracted or letting yourself get interrupted or mm-hmm.
• 18:39
  , whatever else.
• 18:39
  And I would like to think that most people are gonna fight a little
• 18:45
  bit fairer if there's a, a third party in a room, you know, , um,
• 18:51
  at least for the first one or two sessions.
• 18:53
  Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 18:54
  Keeps you a little bit on your better behavior, hopefully.
• 18:57
  Yeah.
• 18:59
  So Carrie, we pulled our listeners and people who follow us on so social media
• 19:03
  for some ideas, for some questions.
• 19:05
  And the one that I feel like comes up all the time, no matter what kind
• 19:10
  of farmer you are or what your uh, situation is, is that having that
• 19:15
  feeling that the farm always comes first.
• 19:17
  And I feel like especially once you have kids, that that brings a lot of resentment
• 19:23
  and sometimes disappointment or hurt from whichever partner feels like they're the
• 19:29
  one being put on the back, back burner.
• 19:31
  And sometimes kids can exacerbate that because then it's just one more thing
• 19:35
  to take care of and, and your needs just end up at the bottom of the pile again.
• 19:39
  So how do farm couples specifically cope with.
• 19:44
  That idea, that feeling like the farm always comes first and, and working,
• 19:49
  working our way through that as couples.
• 19:52
  Yeah, I think that is a really fair question and something that I definitely
• 19:55
  hear comes up a lot and definitely something that I can say I can even
• 19:58
  relate to as well in my own relationship, cuz it is, it is really challenging.
• 20:02
  Um, and I think that, you know, what I find works for me is just learning
• 20:07
  to be flexible with expectations.
• 20:09
  Like obviously, um, for us, the planting seasons are, or the, the
• 20:13
  busy seasons are planting in harvest.
• 20:15
  So, um, our contact with each other is really minimal and we're each kind of.
• 20:20
  Working independently towards kind of the same goal, which is to keep
• 20:23
  the farm and the family stuff going.
• 20:25
  And so I think being flexible with those expectations based on the season.
• 20:29
  Um, but I think also it's, you know, a lot of times I think we expect, um, it to
• 20:35
  be like a relationship in order for it to be maintained and to feel okay with it.
• 20:39
  It needs big things cuz like you said, when you don't have a lot of
• 20:42
  time, eat it in for yourself just to even have a shower some days.
• 20:46
  Um, it can be really difficult to pour anything else out into your relationship.
• 20:50
  And I think the biggest thing that I take in this and, and here I
• 20:53
  am already going to the Gottman's research, is that they find that
• 20:56
  small gestures make a huge difference.
• 20:58
  Like a lot of times we think it's like this big thing that
• 21:00
  we have to go on, on dates.
• 21:01
  I can't remember, I think it's over been, been over a year since my husband
• 21:04
  and I have been on a, a date, an actual date where we went out and I
• 21:08
  wasn't preparing a meal or he wasn't.
• 21:09
  So, you know, those kind of things are wonderful if you
• 21:12
  get the opportunity to do that.
• 21:13
  But if your lifestyle.
• 21:15
  Or your firm doesn't allow that.
• 21:16
  There can be other ways.
• 21:17
  And so I think, um, small gestures can be like basically paying
• 21:22
  attention to the other person.
• 21:24
  Um, it can be sending a quick text or a funny meme, or it can be, a lot of
• 21:28
  times we have, during busy seasons, we have conversations on the phone.
• 21:31
  I think it breaks up the monotony of his time in the field, and it also
• 21:35
  helps me have like another adult human to talk to since I have all
• 21:38
  small children, mostly around me.
• 21:40
  Um, and so I think a, a big part of is that, is just recognizing those small
• 21:44
  connections can make a huge difference.
• 21:46
  And, and not just like the verbal mental connection, but also
• 21:50
  like the physical connection.
• 21:51
  Um, having a quick hug and kiss before you go can be just this way of like,
• 21:55
  okay, yeah, we're parents, we're partners.
• 21:57
  We're working together potentially on the farm as well, but, but we're,
• 22:01
  we're also romantic partners too.
• 22:03
  And so sometimes something that could take maybe five seconds, a
• 22:07
  quick hug goodbye, could be just that gentle reminder of like, Hey,
• 22:10
  We're we're also married partners or, or committed life partners too.
• 22:14
  And so I think it's just recognizing that those small things can make a, a,
• 22:18
  a big difference, can help make each other feel appreciated and valued.
• 22:21
  And then I think can hopefully reduce any kind of resentment or, or disappointment.
• 22:27
  So how do we not talk about business when we're in bed?
• 22:35
  Because I'll tell you something there.
• 22:37
  It, it kills the romance to start, you know, any romance that might be
• 22:42
  left at this point, the minute you start talking about planting or cattle
• 22:47
  in bed, um, it's gone, you know?
• 22:51
  Mm-hmm.
• 22:51
  , it's mm-hmm.
• 22:52
  . So how do you keep work conversations at work when you work
• 22:59
  with at home, with your family?
• 23:02
  Yeah.
• 23:04
  I think that's a really good question.
• 23:05
  I have to say, like, initially my answer would be you can't, um, I, I don't know.
• 23:10
  Like I've seen couples and we've tried it ourselves to try to like
• 23:14
  put these like boundaries around conversations, but then inevitably one
• 23:18
  of us violates it and ends up bringing up something related to the farm.
• 23:22
  And I'd say the other thing too is around kids.
• 23:24
  Like when we actually do go on a date, um, we're like, okay,
• 23:27
  we're not gonna talk about kids.
• 23:28
  We're gonna like talk about our adult stuff and, and be there.
• 23:31
  But the kids and the farm are both two really important things in our life.
• 23:35
  So it just naturally comes up when we're talking about things that matter.
• 23:38
  And so I think that, When it comes to the bedroom, I agree with you.
• 23:41
  Like I would really love to see that ability to kind of make the bed,
• 23:46
  um, just for sleeping in sex only.
• 23:48
  Like if you could just do just those two things.
• 23:50
  And I mean, no iPads, no phones, no tv.
• 23:53
  Like if you can keep those two things just for the bed, I think
• 23:56
  that's a beautiful boundary and I fully encourage people to do that.
• 24:00
  Um, but I think otherwise kind of having boundaries around the talk around the
• 24:04
  farm, I think it's good to be intentional when you're at home or when you're at
• 24:08
  the dinner table or when you're trying to do some non-farm activities to just say,
• 24:12
  Hey, let's be curious about each other.
• 24:14
  Let's be curious about what each person is doing outside
• 24:18
  of, of our farm and our family.
• 24:20
  And I think it's also important to be flexible to allow the farm stuff
• 24:24
  to come up because it's one of those things that if I were to say the
• 24:27
  two of you don't think about a pink bunny for the next one minute, you're
• 24:31
  gonna think about a pink bunny.
• 24:32
  In fact, probably the pink bunny popped into your head immediately, right?
• 24:34
  And so as soon as we start to try to be too rigid with our boundaries,
• 24:40
  We end up violating it right away.
• 24:41
  And then a lot of people just give up on it.
• 24:43
  So I think if you can kind of say to yourself, Hey, let's be intentional
• 24:46
  around focusing on each other and being curious about each other and allow
• 24:50
  ourselves to talk about the farm or the kids or anything else as it comes
• 24:54
  up, I think that'll be, uh, a lot easier to, to kind of maintain that.
• 24:58
  So I know right now, um, it's, it's our sort of our off season,
• 25:03
  our equipment maintenance phase.
• 25:05
  But my husband, what he does has his kind of off-farm interest.
• 25:09
  And you're gonna laugh cuz I'm saying off-farm.
• 25:11
  But what he likes to do is he likes to restore Massey tractors.
• 25:13
  So it's not like totally un farm related
• 25:16
  It's still farm related, let's be honest.
• 25:18
  But, but it's, he's really passionate about that.
• 25:20
  He's passionate about that.
• 25:21
  Plus he restores some Honda dirt bikes and so that's one of the
• 25:24
  beautiful things that he does.
• 25:25
  So we talk about the pharma a little bit last this time of the year and
• 25:29
  it gives us the opportunity to talk about other things cuz he's able to
• 25:32
  invest in other things about himself.
• 25:34
  And I think that's something that we have to be really mindful of, like as a couple.
• 25:38
  as an individual in a couple.
• 25:39
  It's taking some time and space to have your own interests of things that
• 25:42
  you do that's separate from the firm.
• 25:44
  I mean, for example, this podcast that the two of you're doing is farming related,
• 25:48
  but it's also probably really needing some kind of like personal values and
• 25:51
  needs and gives you something else to get excited about, um, and connect with
• 25:55
  other people and have great stories to share with your partners at a later point.
• 25:58
  So I think investing in yourself, being curious about your partner and being
• 26:04
  flexible with those boundaries can, can make a really, really great difference.
• 26:07
  Except for the bed, if you can keep the bed sa sacred, that would be really nice.
• 26:12
  No
• 26:12
  tractor talk in bed.
• 26:13
  Got it.
• 26:14
  That being said, we don't , we violate that all the time.
• 26:21
  So we had a bunch of more questions about Com communication and I've kind
• 26:25
  of categorized them a little bit.
• 26:26
  So we had a couple that were about both kind of on the farm and in the house, how
• 26:32
  we communicate about the little stuff and you know, whether it's on the farm, trying
• 26:39
  not to make one or the other, feel like an employee or same thing in the house
• 26:43
  if, if one person is kind of the lead when it comes to household activities.
• 26:47
  Not making the other person feel like they're being nagged or delegated
• 26:51
  to, but also sharing the work.
• 26:54
  But communicating though, you know, the stuff that can end up being
• 26:57
  kind of nitpicky, how, what are some tricks for communicating those
• 27:01
  types of things with each other?
• 27:04
  ? Well, I think that's a, a, a excellent question.
• 27:06
  I'm gonna be honest.
• 27:07
  I even last night before, um, as I was preparing for the podcast, I, I sat
• 27:12
  down with my husband and it was like, Hey, here's some of the questions.
• 27:14
  What do you think about the answers?
• 27:16
  Um, and I was really excited that our answers actually weirdly aligned.
• 27:19
  I didn't expect that.
• 27:21
  Um, but for him, his answer to this question would be, we're a team.
• 27:25
  Go into it with a team mentality and make sure that you create systems that work.
• 27:28
  And then if you create systems that work, um, then you shouldn't
• 27:32
  be having a lot of problems.
• 27:33
  So you can tell he comes out as with a really wonderful
• 27:35
  managerial perspective for me.
• 27:38
  I agree.
• 27:38
  You're a team.
• 27:39
  That's a, that's a huge part.
• 27:40
  And I think that when you're working with your partner or with your family,
• 27:45
  it's so much easier to speak without editing cuz these are like your people,
• 27:48
  they're kind of stuck with you, so you feel like you can just kind of.
• 27:52
  , whatever comes into your head and let it come right outta your mouth.
• 27:55
  Um, and it's even easier to do that when you're feeling stressed or overwhelmed
• 27:59
  or you haven't had very much sleep.
• 28:01
  Um, and so we can all kind of get irritable and have a
• 28:04
  hard time choosing our words.
• 28:05
  But that being said, like I'm a huge advocate for editing as much as possible.
• 28:09
  I think it helps relationships be healthy.
• 28:12
  So when you think about, uh, addressing your partner, if it's an IM piggy
• 28:17
  thing or if it's like in my case cuz I would be the employee in a relationship
• 28:22
  where you have to talk down to someone in a way about something that's being
• 28:25
  done wrong, I think it's just really important to just be aware of your words.
• 28:29
  Think about how you would talk to your bank manager, or how you'd speak to
• 28:32
  your, um, one of your kids, or maybe even the teacher of one of your kids.
• 28:36
  And just find a way to, to communicate it in a way.
• 28:39
  can be a little bit kinder.
• 28:41
  Um, and, and, but give yourself grace when that doesn't happen, cuz you can
• 28:45
  always apologize and make repairs.
• 28:47
  Um, but as much as possible, I think just being a little bit more careful with
• 28:50
  your words can make a huge difference.
• 28:52
  And I have to say, it was funny cuz when I was reading through these questions
• 28:55
  yesterday, I had received actually a, a text message and I, there was this whole
• 29:00
  series, um, on social media of, uh, people posting their conversations with their
• 29:05
  partners, uh, in farming that they have over tax, which are really, really funny.
• 29:09
  And so I could probably post this one, but my husband was asking me to
• 29:12
  order this electronic transfer pub, but, and I give him props for this,
• 29:17
  he actually added the word please, which to me makes a huge difference.
• 29:20
  And then he added a kissy face.
• 29:22
  So it probably only took an extra one to two seconds to just soften that request.
• 29:29
  And, and what it did is it actually made me wanna take a break for my work, order
• 29:33
  the pump, and then go back to my work.
• 29:35
  And I'm gonna be a bit honest.
• 29:36
  Like if he had asked in a more of an abrupt way, like, get this pump for me, I
• 29:41
  probably wouldn't have done it right away.
• 29:42
  Like I, it really would've like been like on the list,
• 29:45
  but not at the top of the list.
• 29:46
  And so being mindful of our communication doesn't have to take a lot of work
• 29:51
  and it can have a huge impact of wanting to work together on things.
• 29:56
  Yeah, that's really true.
• 29:57
  Because the way you get asked to do something or told
• 30:00
  to do something is . Yeah.
• 30:03
  And whether you get asked or you get told
• 30:05
  , those are two, that's a huge distinction, right?
• 30:08
  Yeah.
• 30:08
  Yeah.
• 30:08
  That's definitely, yeah.
• 30:09
  And as a parent, we as a parent, we know that that's, that's
• 30:13
  a distinction too, right?
• 30:14
  And sometimes you have to be told to do something and, but
• 30:18
  most of the time we can be asked.
• 30:20
  Yeah.
• 30:21
  It is.
• 30:22
  Yeah.
• 30:22
  It feels better.
• 30:23
  What about, yeah, what about situations when you ask for help because you
• 30:27
  genuinely need it or want it, and the response that you get back is that
• 30:32
  they're too busy or too tired, or like we said before the farm comes first.
• 30:37
  How do mm-hmm.
• 30:38
  , how do you deal with that situation when you're, you are putting yourself
• 30:42
  out there and asking for help, and the answer is no or not right now.
• 30:47
  Yeah.
• 30:48
  And I think that comes up a lot.
• 30:50
  Um, and it's, and it's tough.
• 30:53
  Like I, I, I do really think there isn't a perfect answer for that.
• 30:56
  I think it, it's one of those things where I always use the word both and like, I
• 31:01
  like the word and recognize you can have multiple feelings at one time, and you
• 31:06
  can be really too tired and busy to want to help and you can push yourself to.
• 31:12
  and sometimes, um, you might wanna give your partner grace and let them have
• 31:16
  the, get a let them off the hook, right?
• 31:18
  And so I think that again, we have to recognize that we're in this together.
• 31:23
  We're a team, we're a team, as in terms of how we're approaching our, our family.
• 31:27
  We're a team as in terms of how we're approaching our farm.
• 31:29
  Um, and I think it's just really important to, as much as
• 31:33
  possible, be able to be there.
• 31:34
  Because I often find most people, whether no matter what side you
• 31:38
  are, in the partnership of the firm, it's really hard to ask for help.
• 31:41
  We have a lot of strong people who are incredibly resilient.
• 31:45
  And so by the time most people are asking for help, you're really needing the help.
• 31:50
  Like, you're not, you're, you're probably at the breaking point.
• 31:53
  And so I think as much as possible for us to be able to say, I can push
• 31:58
  it a little bit, a little bit more.
• 31:59
  My, my husband always says, you can push it 20% further, which isn't always
• 32:03
  a healthy thing, but it's sometimes when it comes to our relationships, if
• 32:07
  you could just kind of give yourself a little extra push, whether that be
• 32:10
  to help with cleaning up after dinner or bathing the kids, um, or maybe just
• 32:14
  going for a walk together because maybe you just need some time away from the
• 32:18
  house and, and to be able to be together.
• 32:20
  I think that investment is really important too, cuz I think that a lot
• 32:24
  of us have to remember that, you know, as much as the farm is a priority
• 32:27
  for most of us, and I forget what the statistic is, I think it's somewhere
• 32:30
  around 90% of farms are family run.
• 32:32
  And so the family is important to you and a lot of times there
• 32:36
  is no farm without the family.
• 32:37
  And so saving some of that energy to invest in your relationship
• 32:41
  is, is really critical.
• 32:43
  And in order to invest in your relationship, you also
• 32:45
  have to invest in yourself.
• 32:47
  It's that analogy that you always hear when you're on an airplane
• 32:50
  that you have to kind of put the, the oxygen mask on yourself.
• 32:53
  I think a lot of times when our, our partners or ourselves say we're too
• 32:57
  tired and busy, it's because we've pushed ourself beyond capacity and
• 33:00
  not left anything for ourselves.
• 33:02
  So I think if we can find space to, to care for ourselves, then it gives
• 33:06
  us a little bit more energy, lack to also care for our relationships.
• 33:11
  Yeah.
• 33:13
  We had another listener ask about helping a spouse or partner who doesn't
• 33:18
  have a farm background to better understand stressful seasons or, or,
• 33:23
  you know, farming in, in general.
• 33:25
  And I know, you know, that's a lot of your work with the Mental Health
• 33:28
  Alliance is, is helping to therapists to understand, but in a partnership, I
• 33:33
  imagine that's a, a unique challenge is trying to, to have someone else adapt to
• 33:39
  a lifestyle that they didn't grow up with.
• 33:40
  So do you have any thoughts on that?
• 33:43
  Yeah, and I think that is so important and I have to say, , that is definitely
• 33:47
  something that I can relate to.
• 33:48
  I mean, prior to to meeting my husband, I grew up in a rural community.
• 33:52
  I grew up in Chatham, Ontario, so really small community.
• 33:55
  I did corns de tossling.
• 33:56
  So it wasn't that I didn't grow up in a farming community, cause I did very much
• 34:00
  grow up in that kind of rural experience.
• 34:02
  Uh, but my family are not farmers.
• 34:04
  Um, so I didn't have that kind of experience growing up.
• 34:08
  And so, you know, when I got married and became a part of my husband
• 34:11
  and his family, I, it was, it was very eye-opening for me to see what
• 34:16
  that, what that experience was like.
• 34:17
  And I just have to say what has been really helpful for
• 34:20
  me is having him prepare me.
• 34:22
  It's like, this is what I have on the agenda today, or this is what my week
• 34:26
  looks like, or this is what this, you know, this month is gonna look like,
• 34:30
  this is how busy it's going to be.
• 34:31
  And so if I know, um, that I'm going to be doing most things by myself, uh,
• 34:37
  whether it be navigating the childcare drop off or anything on the home front.
• 34:41
  then that helps me be like, okay, I know this is, this is happening.
• 34:45
  So I think preparation and communication about what to expect and what's going on
• 34:49
  can really, really make a big difference.
• 34:52
  And I think both partners can just continue to be curious about each other.
• 34:55
  Like, I think that the person with the non-farm job, it's really good for you
• 34:59
  to ask questions like, what's happening?
• 35:01
  What's going on right now on the farm?
• 35:03
  And, and vice versa.
• 35:05
  So I think if we're curious about each other and try to look for
• 35:07
  the best in our partner, it can be a lot easier to be patient.
• 35:10
  Um, even during those really, really frustrated times.
• 35:13
  And I know that we, each year, like we've had to learn how to be flexible.
• 35:17
  Like I know the, the first few years I would, I would bring out,
• 35:21
  um, meals, meals to the field and coffees and things like that.
• 35:25
  And, and that helped me feel connected and involved.
• 35:28
  Um, but then the more kids that added up , right?
• 35:32
  It just got really, really, really stressful and overwhelming for me.
• 35:36
  So even though it was good for the kids and it, and, and it was good for my
• 35:39
  husband, it was, it was too overwhelming.
• 35:42
  So we learned how to flex again and we figured out ways for, for him to be,
• 35:46
  and, and for our family to be well fed.
• 35:48
  But for me not to be taking on that additional task of running all over
• 35:52
  the place, cuz our farms are, are quite spread out, sometimes hours apart.
• 35:55
  So I think a big part is, is just learning to be, be flexible and figuring
• 35:59
  out how you can support each other.
• 36:04
  I
• 36:04
  know, Carrie, it's made a huge difference in our relationship to try to really be
• 36:09
  intentional about asking what the other one has going on because it's so easy
• 36:14
  to get this whole list going in your head that you just sort of assumed that
• 36:18
  it must be on some like, familial brain length, something that you know mm-hmm.
• 36:25
  your, your partner will magically know what your priorities are and it.
• 36:32
  It's really hard for anyone to interrupt their list of priorities, to
• 36:36
  prioritize somebody else's priorities.
• 36:40
  Um mm-hmm.
• 36:41
  . So it turns out that it's a lot easier if you work on your list of priorities
• 36:46
  together before either of you gets to.
• 36:48
  I love that set in stone about it because especially on weekends.
• 36:53
  Mm-hmm.
• 36:53
  , you know, one of us will say, but I had this, this, this, and this planned.
• 36:57
  I'm like, cool.
• 36:58
  You didn't mention any of that until Saturday lunchtime, so Exactly.
• 37:03
  You know?
• 37:03
  Yeah.
• 37:04
  Um, you can't expect too much buy-in from the rest of us.
• 37:08
  How can we address when we can't share our burdens with our partner because
• 37:14
  we know that it won't be good for their mental health and not in a, a martyrdom
• 37:20
  kind of way, but there are just times that a problem shared is not a problem.
• 37:26
  Hald, you know, I
• 37:28
  agree.
• 37:31
  . Yeah, I, I agree with you wholeheartedly.
• 37:33
  I, you know, you want to think that your partner can be your everything,
• 37:40
  um, and that you can share things freely, but I agree with you.
• 37:43
  Sometimes part of loving someone is recognizing when sharing something
• 37:48
  with them would be too much.
• 37:51
  But at the same time, you don't wanna be left alone and isolated
• 37:54
  in, in dealing with that either.
• 37:56
  And so I think that's why a big part of being healthy in a relationship
• 38:00
  is to be healthy as an individual and to make sure that you have
• 38:03
  your people and your supports that are people that you can talk to.
• 38:08
  So if you can't share something with your partner, do you.
• 38:11
  a friend that you can talk to about it, um, or to have your own therapist to be
• 38:16
  able to kind of talk through and kind of get that, that, that needed support from.
• 38:20
  Or a parent or, or, you know, anyone elsewhere that would be
• 38:23
  that kind of healthy relationship.
• 38:25
  So I don't, I think a lot of times we get these unhealthy messages of your partner
• 38:29
  should be your everything and you should be able to tell everyone everything.
• 38:33
  Well, sometimes sharing everything will make the relationship really unhealthy
• 38:36
  and it could be really damaging.
• 38:38
  And so I think it is about making sure that you have your people, your
• 38:42
  space, your time to, to be able to talk about the things that are really
• 38:47
  important but that, you know, your, your partner couldn't handle maybe at
• 38:51
  that particular time or maybe ever.
• 38:53
  Um, so yeah, I think I agree with you.
• 38:55
  Like a problem shared is a problem hald, but that doesn't mean that you always
• 39:00
  share with just that one person you might share it with, with other people.
• 39:03
  Or maybe you journal about it.
• 39:04
  Like for me, I have a journal, like I find it really accessible so that
• 39:08
  if I'm overwhelmed by things, , I can really break it down in my head
• 39:12
  and, and write it out because maybe I wouldn't be able to like text a
• 39:15
  friend right away in that moment.
• 39:16
  So I think it's about figuring out what you need to, to kind of take care of you.
• 39:21
  I think too, maybe, especially with farmers, it seems like so many of us are
• 39:26
  people who like to fix things, um mm-hmm.
• 39:30
  that especially, you know, if I have a problem that's mostly emotional or
• 39:37
  where there's a stress that really nothing is going to fix it except time
• 39:43
  and there's really no control over the situation, handing that to someone who
• 39:48
  deals with things entirely by fixing them is not going to be helpful.
• 39:54
  Um, agreed.
• 39:55
  It's just frustrating for everyone at that point, so.
• 39:59
  Mm-hmm.
• 40:00
  , one of the other questions we had gotten is, How we draw boundaries
• 40:05
  when a partner refuses to get or accept professional help.
• 40:10
  And it is really negatively impacting the family, especially if
• 40:15
  there's, you know, kids involved.
• 40:17
  And, I mean, mental health is a, a health problem.
• 40:22
  It's nobody's fault that they have these issues or that
• 40:27
  they're struggling with things.
• 40:29
  But also you have, you know, occasionally small people whose safety and health
• 40:36
  is your responsibility and, you know, and also for ourselves not being
• 40:42
  stuck in a horribly unhappy situation.
• 40:45
  . Okay.
• 40:46
  Yeah, absolutely.
• 40:47
  And I think that that is really important.
• 40:48
  It definitely doesn't have an easy answer.
• 40:50
  And before I get into that, I do wanna circle back around to something that
• 40:53
  you had just said about how, um, some things you might not share with your,
• 40:57
  your partner, because they might more go into the kind of that fixing mentality.
• 41:01
  I mean, I agree wholeheartedly.
• 41:03
  I think that that is, Something that happens a lot.
• 41:06
  And I think that sometimes it's just recognizing, it's like, okay, well
• 41:09
  there's gonna be certain people in our life that know how to make us laugh.
• 41:12
  And there's certain people in our life who might be able to give really great advice.
• 41:15
  And sometimes you need that fixing and sometimes you just need that
• 41:18
  person that will just listen.
• 41:20
  And sometimes you just need to hold that in yourself and not share it at all.
• 41:23
  And it's, it's figuring out what you need, first of all is, is a big part.
• 41:27
  And I do think that couples can work on that fixing piece.
• 41:31
  Um, I know with my husband, cuz he's a fixer too, we've kind of come up
• 41:35
  with this thing where it's like, do you need me to listen to help?
• 41:38
  Or do you need me just to, to listen and be there?
• 41:41
  And he's learned that for me and that this is gonna sound really weird, but I like,
• 41:45
  I like being told it's gonna be okay.
• 41:46
  Like even if it's not gonna be okay, I just want him to
• 41:49
  tell me it's gonna be okay.
• 41:50
  And, and just gimme a hug.
• 41:51
  And so he's, he's learned that I don't always want advice
• 41:55
  on how to handle situations.
• 41:56
  So I think with partners sometimes if we tell them what we need and they're willing
• 42:00
  to learn, Sometimes they can give us a little bit more and sometimes they can't.
• 42:04
  And sometimes we just have to go to other people cuz they, they give
• 42:07
  that, um, in an easier way for them.
• 42:10
  So, but I'm really glad that you brought up the fixing thing
• 42:12
  that really resonated with me.
• 42:14
  Um, in terms of when, uh, someone has refusal to get professional help, I
• 42:19
  think it, it's a tricky one and it can be really situation specific first of all.
• 42:24
  Uh, but I think that if, if what the person is doing, if their behavior is
• 42:29
  causing harm, um, and I, I can't help but thinking about like drinking and,
• 42:34
  and how that can really come up that way.
• 42:36
  Or, or maybe their emotions, their difficulty managing, like
• 42:39
  anger can create a space where it doesn't feel safe for you.
• 42:43
  Or like you said, for the little ones, I think the boundaries
• 42:46
  might have to be more intense.
• 42:48
  Um, I think when that happens, that's when we might have to draw some physical.
• 42:53
  And potentially have that person leave for a period of time or have
• 42:56
  us have a space that you can take you and the kids away to, to to be safe.
• 43:01
  Um, so I think physical boundaries can be really important when there is something
• 43:06
  happening that doesn't feel safe.
• 43:08
  If things feel safe, but they're just hurtful or, or damaging in
• 43:13
  some ways, then you can start kind of putting verbal boundaries down.
• 43:16
  It's like, I understand you're really upset right now.
• 43:19
  Um, we need to talk later cuz I can't, I can't hear what you're saying when
• 43:22
  you're, this worked up and then just, you know, either taking space or the kids
• 43:27
  with you from that person at that time going into another room, or even just
• 43:31
  encouraging that person to kind of go do the thing that might help them calm down.
• 43:35
  When it comes to getting professional help, I think the one
• 43:38
  thing that doesn't work from my experience has been ultimatums.
• 43:41
  Like a lot of times when we get really desperate, um, and someone in our
• 43:45
  family is really struggling, sometimes we wanna throw it an ultimatum.
• 43:48
  They're to say, if you don't do this, Then this will happen and
• 43:52
  kind of drawing that hard line.
• 43:54
  And then the person may not go, or they may go, but they may not actually try it.
• 44:00
  It won't make any difference.
• 44:01
  And so it's really important that when someone does get help,
• 44:03
  that they're motivated to do it.
• 44:05
  And so that's where I think ultimatums and boundaries are different, is like
• 44:09
  an ultimatum is forcing someone to get help potentially before they're ready.
• 44:14
  Where a boundary is saying, you know, if you don't get help with this,
• 44:19
  then I have to, you know, we, we need to take a break for a little bit.
• 44:23
  Or, um, we're gonna have to take space when this happens.
• 44:26
  Or the kids and I are gonna go do this just because.
• 44:29
  And it's not saying you have to do this or this, it's saying this isn't safe for us.
• 44:33
  We have to do, we have to make these choices.
• 44:36
  Um, until you're.
• 44:37
  . So it, that way when the person does go, it is their, it is their choice.
• 44:42
  Um, but it is so hard, right?
• 44:43
  Like you could just, you, you, a lot of times when you're outside of the
• 44:47
  experience, you can look in and say, well, these behaviors are so harmful.
• 44:51
  This emotion's so harmful.
• 44:52
  You know, that there can be help, um, available, whether it be medication
• 44:56
  or treatment, um, or therapy.
• 45:00
  But it's, it's hard cuz you're so helpless.
• 45:02
  Your hands are tied.
• 45:02
  We can't change another person.
• 45:04
  We can't control another person.
• 45:06
  We can just try to support them in it and protect ourselves
• 45:10
  in the, the ones that we love.
• 45:11
  Yeah.
• 45:12
  I think too from, you know, guests we've talked to, especially livestock
• 45:15
  farmers, you know, there's all these other lives that are depending on you.
• 45:22
  And I feel like there's so many of us were raised with, you know, these
• 45:28
  are the things where it's reasonable to leave and they're all very mm-hmm.
• 45:32
  extreme situations.
• 45:35
  and mm-hmm.
• 45:36
  , I think especially in small towns, like people know that other people are gonna
• 45:39
  talk about why they broke up or, you know, why one of them moved out or mm-hmm.
• 45:44
  was this reasonable, and, you know, what horrible thing do we think was happening
• 45:49
  because probably it was just that they weren't happy, but we'll come up with
• 45:52
  something more dramatic because mm-hmm.
• 45:56
  nobody just wants to hear that somebody wasn't happy.
• 45:58
  Like, nothing exciting to gossip about there, you know?
• 46:03
  And there's just so much other pressure that, you know, I, I feel like mm-hmm.
• 46:10
  so many of us were raised with, you know, if your partner hits you, then you leave.
• 46:15
  That's, that's the boundary and not right.
• 46:18
  You know, but then you have kids and you realize, , they're learning how to be
• 46:22
  people from what they're seeing you do.
• 46:25
  Yes.
• 46:25
  And that was, yeah, that's a terrifying thing.
• 46:28
  I try not to think about too much because there's not enough
• 46:31
  therapy in the world for that one.
• 46:33
  Um, you know?
• 46:34
  Mm-hmm.
• 46:34
  like, oh, they're, they're learning how to treat their own partners
• 46:37
  and how to expect to be treated from what they're seeing us do.
• 46:42
  Um, exactly.
• 46:44
  And that's, you know, having read some of Gottman's books myself, I really
• 46:50
  like that so much of their philosophy seems to be centered around respecting
• 46:54
  each other because Absolutely.
• 46:56
  There's definitely days that I don't even really like my husband, sorry, dear.
• 47:02
  Uh, , not sure if, I hope you're listening to this episode or not,
• 47:05
  but I try to make sure that we always respect each other and that that's
• 47:10
  what our kids are seeing because.
• 47:14
  That is something that once you break it is pretty damn hard to get back.
• 47:18
  I agree.
• 47:19
  Okay.
• 47:19
  Well now that we've had my therapy session for the day, that's good.
• 47:23
  . Yay.
• 47:25
  No, I think I, I think that, I think that is so important.
• 47:28
  I, I'm reminded there's, uh, uh, you may have heard of her too.
• 47:32
  Brene Brown talks about this thing called the marble jar.
• 47:35
  And in relationships, you know, whenever you know someone does
• 47:38
  something that builds our trust or that we feel we're respected,
• 47:42
  it throws something in the marble.
• 47:44
  It throws a marble in the jar, or several marbles in the jar.
• 47:46
  But every time someone does something hurtful or harmful,
• 47:49
  we start losing marbles.
• 47:50
  And, and sometimes what happens when relationships break down
• 47:53
  is there's just no marbles left.
• 47:55
  You know, there's been just too many negative interactions or too
• 47:59
  many betrayals of trust on a variety of different levels, or too much
• 48:03
  disrespect or lack of appreciation.
• 48:05
  And it just causes their relationship to, to totally break down.
• 48:08
  And I agree with you that I think sometimes people will stay together
• 48:11
  for the kids, but sometimes.
• 48:13
  , you have to break up for the kids to show them that this is what a
• 48:16
  healthy relationship looks like, and sometimes the healthiest relationships
• 48:20
  are the ones that aren't together.
• 48:22
  And so it's, it's, it's a tough one.
• 48:24
  It's a tough one.
• 48:25
  It, like I said, that's why I always think relationships take a lot of work and you
• 48:28
  need to have both partners working on it.
• 48:30
  Well, and I, I know too that with the respect thing, it, it turns out that
• 48:35
  some signs of respect I think are pretty universal, but a lot of them are very
• 48:40
  personality based and how much work you have to put into communicating what
• 48:46
  you will find disrespectful and what.
• 48:48
  you don't see as disrespectful.
• 48:50
  Um, for example, in our house, one thing that is pretty common is we'll say, you
• 48:55
  know, oh, this meal you made is horrible.
• 48:58
  I'll get rid of it.
• 48:59
  You know, I will eat all of it.
• 49:00
  Mm-hmm.
• 49:00
  so that you were not forced to eat this horrible thing.
• 49:04
  And my husband did that once when we had somebody over for supper,
• 49:07
  just didn't think about it and was like, oh, this is disgusting.
• 49:10
  I will lead it so you don't have to.
• 49:13
  And the look mm-hmm.
• 49:14
  On your face that my husband would sit at the table and say this to me,
• 49:20
  you know, where it never even occurred to me that it would be taken as being
• 49:25
  disrespectful, because I do the same thing to him, and I'll be like, oh no,
• 49:29
  this, this pie we bought is terrible.
• 49:31
  You don't want any of this.
• 49:32
  I'll just mm-hmm.
• 49:33
  , I'll just eat it.
• 49:33
  So you don't have to, you know, and , yeah.
• 49:37
  How much we have to really communicate around.
• 49:45
  what our families taught us and what we see about these things.
• 49:48
  Mm-hmm.
• 49:48
  , because they are not universal and mm-hmm.
• 49:52
  , you know, I mean, there's things that are, but there's a lot that is not.
• 49:55
  And, and making sure our kids know which of these things is not universal because
• 50:00
  it, it does occur to me that I don't want my kids to think that going to someone's
• 50:05
  house and insulting their cooking is a universally, um, acceptable thing to do.
• 50:12
  Yeah.
• 50:12
  That moment you're
• 50:13
  embarrassed, you're like, oh, great.
• 50:14
  Thanks baby.
• 50:18
  So, while we're talking about family culture, another question that came
• 50:22
  in from a listener was about that extended families piece, right?
• 50:26
  I mean, so many of us are living very close or working with, or
• 50:31
  maybe even living with, um, extended families, people who are not part
• 50:36
  of our partnered relationship, but are part of our, our lives.
• 50:40
  So what are some.
• 50:43
  Some tips for how couples can approach the stresses that come in with other
• 50:48
  people, , whether they be, I mean, I'm specifically talking about family,
• 50:53
  but I mean, family can also be just the, you know, the, the close people
• 50:56
  in your life that, that put pressure on your relationship that are not part
• 51:00
  of it, but end up, uh, playing a part.
• 51:04
  Yeah, absolutely.
• 51:05
  Um, so, you know, just as, as we're we're talking about these different
• 51:10
  things, I'm finding a bunch of different I ideas kind of merging together and I
• 51:13
  wish that I could, you could, everyone could, all the listeners could see me
• 51:17
  cuz I would like to draw basically, uh, like a diagram where there's a whole
• 51:21
  bunch of concentric circles at the center circle is just you, and then outside
• 51:25
  of that circle is you and your partner.
• 51:28
  And then outside of that circle can be maybe your kids.
• 51:31
  Um, and then outside of that might be your parents, your in-laws, your other really
• 51:36
  important people in as part of your life.
• 51:39
  And then you might go a little bit further in those might be kind of like, You know,
• 51:43
  I call them mom friends, uh, people that you're close to, but are just a little
• 51:47
  bit outside of the, the other, uh, people.
• 51:49
  It, it could be your accountant, but then you just kind of keep
• 51:52
  going in terms of closeness and vulnerability and connection.
• 51:56
  And then with your partner, I think it's really key to kind of recognize
• 52:00
  that the two of you do have this circle that's apart from everybody else.
• 52:04
  It's a special circle.
• 52:04
  And in fact, I call it the circle of trust.
• 52:07
  When I talk about it with my husband, I'm like, I'm gonna tell you something, but
• 52:10
  don't go into the shop tomorrow and tell everybody in the shop what I just told
• 52:14
  you, because that will literally happen.
• 52:17
  Um, I'll be like, this is in our circle of trust, . And so, and it's
• 52:21
  just, it's, it's finding a way to kind of respect some boundaries that
• 52:24
  some of the conversations that you might have, even if it's about the.
• 52:28
  Or maybe it's something even more personal that, that some things
• 52:31
  just aren't meant to be, be shared.
• 52:33
  And it's the same thing when you're given advice or, um, have other
• 52:37
  people kind of creating expectations.
• 52:39
  It's making sure that the two of you come together and say, okay, well this is,
• 52:43
  this is what other people are expecting from us or wanting from us, or this
• 52:46
  is something someone had said to me.
• 52:48
  Um, and it's having that like really open communication to kind of say,
• 52:50
  okay, well when this thing was said to me, this is how it made me feel.
• 52:54
  And so it's just making sure that you have that safe place in your
• 52:57
  circle with just your partner.
• 52:59
  And then as we were talking about before, um, you also have your own circle.
• 53:03
  So there's some things you're not even gonna share with your partner
• 53:05
  and have boundaries around it.
• 53:07
  So I think, uh, the big part is, is that when you're working with.
• 53:11
  Um, or just working with other people that you're close to is making sure that
• 53:14
  your partnership and your, maybe even just your immediate family has its own
• 53:18
  kind of separate space of things that are okay to talk about and not talk
• 53:21
  about outside of that and just protecting
• 53:23
  it.
• 53:24
  I know one thing that helped me a lot, Carrie, too, marrying into a family that
• 53:28
  was very different from my own, um, was picturing myself wearing like a little,
• 53:34
  you know, a pith helmet and carrying a notebook and like being a little
• 53:37
  anthropologist and just trying to, to study these people instead of going, well,
• 53:43
  what the hell is wrong with these people?
• 53:45
  What the hell is wrong with me that I don't understand these people because
• 53:48
  they all seem to think this is normal and maybe it is normal and I'm the one
• 53:53
  who's screwed up and, you know, we've been married 10 years this spring and
• 53:58
  it's getting a little better, I think . But, you know, um, trying to really be
• 54:05
  aware of that, that it's not really that there's something wrong with you or them.
• 54:10
  that it's, it turns out that you're different people and I really, I
• 54:13
  like the idea too of your circles starting with just you as mm-hmm.
• 54:20
  a person in your own right.
• 54:22
  Without your partner and your kids mm-hmm.
• 54:24
  and whatever else that you are still a, a self, you know, first and foremost.
• 54:30
  Yeah.
• 54:30
  And that's not a bad thing.
• 54:33
  Um, it's not, so the other question I added here as a, as a fellow introvert
• 54:42
  is how do you, I don't, I'm trying to like, think of how to say this.
• 54:47
  That doesn't sound horrible.
• 54:48
  What do you do on the days that you just don't give a shit about
• 54:53
  making your marriage healthy?
• 54:55
  Because there's some days that you know, the kids are sicker, the kids
• 54:59
  need something and work needs something, and everybody else needs something.
• 55:02
  And then, you know, you know that you should be a.
• 55:07
  Better partner, but fuck it because, you know, you can feed
• 55:12
  yourself and you're not on fire.
• 55:13
  So figure it out like and I, I know that's a totally fine thing
• 55:20
  occasionally, but it seems like it can be a real slippery slope and getting
• 55:26
  back up that slope is, um, really hard.
• 55:32
  So it's, it would be nice to have some more tools for sort of stopping that
• 55:36
  slide before you hit the bottom of it.
• 55:38
  Okay.
• 55:39
  So fix all my life problems, please.
• 55:41
  Carrie
• 55:43
  . Well, I first of all just wanna like, because I'm gonna connect this, I promise,
• 55:47
  but I really liked how you were described going into, um, your, your husband's
• 55:53
  family with this like, hat of curiosity.
• 55:56
  Like, I, I, I could picture the clipboard and everything and I think when, when it
• 56:00
  comes to being in a relationship, being curious and being compassionate, are.
• 56:04
  amazing things, and I can hear that in the way that you're describing things.
• 56:07
  So I think in terms of the question that you asked around kind of the
• 56:11
  introverted, when you have, like, nothing lacked, your br batteries
• 56:13
  are drained, you're struggling.
• 56:15
  I want you, I, I always encourage people, and, and believe me, I
• 56:18
  struggle with practicing this myself, um, is you gotta be curious and
• 56:21
  compassionate with yourself too.
• 56:23
  Like if you don't wanna slip too far downwards, part of that is kind of
• 56:26
  being like, what's going on with me?
• 56:29
  Like, you know, just pausing for a moment with all the demands coming around
• 56:33
  you and going to find a space for me, honest to God, sometimes it's the car.
• 56:38
  I sit in the car a lot, , like, I'll come, come home and I, if there's nobody
• 56:42
  else with me, that is my, my quiet space where it just like the bathroom
• 56:46
  is a safe space cuz it has a lock.
• 56:48
  Although everyone here knows how to defeat the lock, which is frustrating, but it,
• 56:51
  but mostly it's take space for yourself.
• 56:54
  Be curious about what's going on for you.
• 56:57
  Why do you not have anything left to give?
• 56:59
  Why are you just wanting to say screw it and not.
• 57:01
  Give anything else and be compassionate towards yourself,
• 57:04
  be like, geez, the kids are sick.
• 57:07
  Um, you know, I'm not feeling appreciated.
• 57:09
  I'm feeling exhausted.
• 57:11
  I haven't stopped Well for the last couple of nights, you know, it's, it's,
• 57:15
  you know, it's being com It's, I two people doubt if you're an introvert.
• 57:19
  It's also recognizing maybe you've had too many people around you
• 57:22
  and, and that's draining, right?
• 57:23
  Like extroverts, a lot of people think extroverts are people who are outgoing.
• 57:27
  Extroverts are people who charge by being around other people.
• 57:31
  Um, I have two children that are like that.
• 57:32
  I have no idea how I created them, but, but introverts need that time on
• 57:37
  their own and in order to recharge.
• 57:39
  And so if you have human beings around you, even your partner, it's too much.
• 57:44
  And so I think a big part is that if you're feeling that way, be
• 57:47
  curious, be compassionate towards yourself too, and take that space
• 57:51
  cuz otherwise things will slip.
• 57:53
  Like if you just kind of try to keep giving and keep pushing, um, you're
• 57:56
  gonna get to the point of extreme frustration, maybe even resentment.
• 58:01
  uh, for, for having demands made of you, and then just say,
• 58:04
  screw it and shut down entirely.
• 58:06
  Where I think the way to prevent the slippery slope is to, to make
• 58:09
  sure you give your sp self space.
• 58:11
  I say ideally every day.
• 58:12
  I know this sounds really crazy, but I give myself five minutes every day.
• 58:15
  And I know that's not a lot of time, but it makes a huge difference.
• 58:19
  Like I just take five minutes away from everything else to just
• 58:23
  be still and kind of be like, okay, what's going on with you?
• 58:26
  Um, and so I think that can, I think preventative work is, is really key, but
• 58:30
  if you notice yourself slipping that way and feeling resentful, it's again, it,
• 58:34
  it might be even telling your partner when you're in a good space, be like,
• 58:37
  sometimes I slip and I need your help to call me out on that and say, whoa,
• 58:42
  you know, you're not in a good space.
• 58:43
  And then kind of help give me that time to, to reconnect with myself.
• 58:49
  Did that answer that?
• 58:50
  Yes.
• 58:51
  It, it really did.
• 58:52
  I think too, when you talk about five minutes, not being that much time, I
• 58:56
  find so often for myself, it's not okay.
• 59:00
  . You know, if I took a really long vacation and sat on the beach for a whole
• 59:05
  week, I would not find that relaxing.
• 59:08
  But sometimes that 10 minutes of just to heck up with the lot of you and you
• 59:15
  know, , unless you're actually on fire, do not bother me for the next 10 minutes.
• 59:20
  Exactly.
• 59:21
  Carving that space out for yourself can be so helpful, even if it's not, you know,
• 59:28
  it's, it's not about the amount of time or going and doing something, it's just
• 59:32
  about the giving yourself the permission to take whatever it is that you're taking.
• 59:39
  Um, yes.
• 59:40
  Which is why I'm going on vacation.
• 59:41
  Yeah.
• 59:42
  And it has to be.
• 59:44
  So
• 59:45
  And is it that you're visiting Arlie?
• 59:46
  Did I hear that on so, yeah.
• 59:48
  Oh, hope that's so
• 59:49
  wonderful.
• 59:50
  . There will be no beaches.
• 59:51
  Well, I mean, there could be but the water will be frozen.
• 59:53
  Oh, the, the fine fine Beaches of Ontario in mid-February.
• 59:58
  Delightful.
• 59:59
  Yeah, delightful.
• 1:00:00
  Cold and windy.
• 1:00:00
  It's very cold.
• 1:00:04
  So as a parent, it seems like, especially in those early days and months of becoming
• 1:00:12
  a new parent, and I'll say it, especially for moms, you have a total life change
• 1:00:18
  that takes a long time to, to figure out for yourself, and that can impact your
• 1:00:23
  relationship in a lot of different ways.
• 1:00:26
  Do you have any thoughts on helping people through that transition time?
• 1:00:30
  Because that seems to be a really critical stage, it seems like, from when you're
• 1:00:35
  going from a couple to a family, and how, how, I mean, you can still in theory,
• 1:00:41
  think Yes, we're the, we're the center.
• 1:00:42
  You know, I'm a person and my co my, my partner's the second circle.
• 1:00:46
  But when you have a, an infant in your house for the first time, it's,
• 1:00:50
  they are so demanding, and mm-hmm.
• 1:00:53
  , you don't feel like a self anymore.
• 1:00:55
  So, Do you have any thoughts on how people can kind of get through that
• 1:00:59
  period and keep their relationship intact?
• 1:01:01
  Because I feel like that's a, a critical point in a lot of a lot of relationships.
• 1:01:07
  Yeah, I agree completely.
• 1:01:08
  And I think that with that, it's a big part is adjusting expectations.
• 1:01:13
  So when we think about that, we go through seasons in the year, like spring, fall,
• 1:01:19
  summer, or we think about seasons in farming, whether it be kind of Calvin
• 1:01:22
  season season or lambing season or planting season or when we think about
• 1:01:26
  all these seasons, we also have seasons in our lives and our relationship.
• 1:01:30
  And I think when you are moving to parenthood, a big part is just
• 1:01:35
  recognizing things start to change.
• 1:01:38
  The boundaries start to change, the the responsibilities change.
• 1:01:42
  Um, and, and I think it's really important to just kind
• 1:01:44
  of flex on those expectations.
• 1:01:46
  Recognizing you're probably not going to have as much time for each other.
• 1:01:50
  You're not going to, I mean, a lot of times, I mean, I, I always think
• 1:01:54
  that right after having a baby, my highest priority thing, if I have
• 1:01:58
  a moment, is to have a shower.
• 1:02:01
  And, you know, it's like, no, I don't wanna cuddle , I wanna have a shower.
• 1:02:05
  You know, like, and, and, and you're in survival mode.
• 1:02:08
  And I think that's what a lot of people don't realize is that initially
• 1:02:11
  you're in that survival mode, which means fight or flight, like your
• 1:02:13
  cortisol is going, you're exhausted.
• 1:02:16
  Um, you know, you know, if women can have, and, and men can have the
• 1:02:20
  oxytocin, which, which is really good for bonding with the infant, but all
• 1:02:23
  of a sudden our priority shifts, right?
• 1:02:25
  And our focus might become prioritizing the baby.
• 1:02:27
  And that's a season of, of a marriage, right?
• 1:02:29
  When you first have a baby, you focus might be on the baby, maybe
• 1:02:33
  that circle changes and the baby is kind of like the closest circle next
• 1:02:37
  to you, and then it's your partner.
• 1:02:38
  But it's still trying to find ways to be close and connected and,
• 1:02:41
  and being able to say, okay, this is just where we are right now.
• 1:02:44
  How can we still.
• 1:02:46
  Support one another.
• 1:02:47
  How can we still share responsibilities?
• 1:02:49
  And I find in farming what's even harder about it is that
• 1:02:53
  there's no paid parental leave.
• 1:02:55
  Right?
• 1:02:56
  And so, um, you, you don't get that same beautiful opportunity where, and this
• 1:03:01
  is a traditional, more of a traditional makeup here, um, where you're, your
• 1:03:06
  partner can be there with you in the trenches for the first couple of weeks.
• 1:03:10
  And when you're not sleeping, and then, you know, your, your partner
• 1:03:13
  can be at home letting you get a nap.
• 1:03:15
  That is impossible, depending on, our babies have always been born
• 1:03:18
  in, in harvest, . I don't know how that keeps happening, but, but that
• 1:03:23
  means that, you know, I'm, he's there for me as much as he could be.
• 1:03:28
  But for the most part, I'm on, I'm on my own.
• 1:03:30
  I'm really in survival mode.
• 1:03:31
  And so I think some of.
• 1:03:32
  Planning ahead, making sure other supports can be in place, other people
• 1:03:36
  can be there, being patient with one another, and just recognizing that that's
• 1:03:40
  a special season of your relationship.
• 1:03:41
  It's this incredible bonding time where you're bonding over being parents,
• 1:03:45
  but it's also kind of a time where you might feel the most disconnected
• 1:03:49
  because your priorities and your focus are shifting and changing.
• 1:03:53
  But again, I always go back to making sure that in that space, if you wanna
• 1:03:57
  be able to be a good partner, and if you wanna be a good parent to your
• 1:04:00
  baby, you do still have to really find, carve out that five, 10 minutes for
• 1:04:04
  yourself or longer if you can have, take that shower, um, have that nap if
• 1:04:09
  there's someone willing to, to help you.
• 1:04:11
  But it is, I think a big part is, is just recognizing that things are going to
• 1:04:15
  change and that that change will evolve as the, the child gets older, you'll
• 1:04:19
  have more time for each other again.
• 1:04:21
  So it's just being flexible with those expectations.
• 1:04:25
  Asking each other what, what you need, cuz that's gonna be different.
• 1:04:28
  Communicating what those, those things are.
• 1:04:30
  Um, and just recognizing if, if in your family it's not possible for
• 1:04:35
  both of you to be in there in the trenches doing all the work together,
• 1:04:39
  it's finding other people, um, in your life that can, can kind of help
• 1:04:42
  with that so that you don't feel so isolated in, in that, in that space.
• 1:04:47
  Right.
• 1:04:47
  It's so hard, especially, you know, I can say even for myself, um, my
• 1:04:51
  husband's like, oh, you know, you're a harvest widow or something like that.
• 1:04:54
  And, and it can be really alone.
• 1:04:55
  Uh, really lonely and isolating, especially if you have a small human, uh,
• 1:04:59
  waking you up every two to three hours and, and needing you for everything.
• 1:05:04
  Yeah.
• 1:05:05
  And so often it can feel like, um, speaking as a mother that,
• 1:05:10
  you know, my husband's life didn't change all that much.
• 1:05:13
  Right.
• 1:05:14
  , you know, like that he still walked out the door in the morning and assumed
• 1:05:17
  that everything was okay in the house.
• 1:05:19
  And for the most part, you know, we managed, I coped.
• 1:05:22
  But yeah, there were lots of days where it was like, why has
• 1:05:26
  everything in my life changed
• 1:05:28
  And yeah, you seem to be able to just like walk around, like you
• 1:05:32
  can just like walk out the door.
• 1:05:34
  that just seem, you know, like Yeah.
• 1:05:36
  In those moments it feels like that even just, you know, walking out the
• 1:05:40
  door, having a shower without asking someone else for help to do that.
• 1:05:45
  Right.
• 1:05:46
  Like, you don't have to ask, ask anyone no permission to help you so
• 1:05:49
  you can go to the bathroom or you don't have to take anyone with you.
• 1:05:52
  Like, all of those basic, basic needs all of a sudden feel impossible.
• 1:05:58
  Agreed.
• 1:05:59
  Yeah.
• 1:06:00
  Well, and Arlene too, I think.
• 1:06:01
  Oh.
• 1:06:02
  For so many of us who have married on to farms, you know, that we've married
• 1:06:09
  into a business with a family that might live right across the road and,
• 1:06:15
  you know, maybe we're living in our husband's childhood home and then we
• 1:06:20
  have a baby, and then he gets to just keep doing what he was doing and yeah.
• 1:06:27
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:06:27
  now we can't even find a TV remote without, you know, help.
• 1:06:31
  And it's, yeah, it, it can feel like a, a series of things where his life just
• 1:06:40
  got more interesting and, and cuddler and your life just got more poop, , uh,
• 1:06:48
  literally and metaphorical poop.
• 1:06:49
  And that can,
• 1:06:50
  it's just not
• 1:06:52
  literal.
• 1:06:52
  Yes.
• 1:06:54
  . Yeah.
• 1:06:54
  When that can build resentment, right?
• 1:06:55
  When you notice those things happening.
• 1:06:57
  And I think that's where a lot of, there's a lot more conversation around
• 1:07:00
  the invisible labor of the primary caregiver and recognizing all these
• 1:07:04
  small little things that you do day in and day out that really add up.
• 1:07:09
  Um, and sometimes when the, when the other person gets to leave the house without
• 1:07:14
  those significant changes, or even may come home and the house looks just as
• 1:07:17
  much of a disaster as when they left, but you've worked nonstop, you know, at, at
• 1:07:22
  keeping all the, all the poo together,
• 1:07:25
  So it can be, yeah, it can, it can be really frustrating.
• 1:07:28
  And so I think sometimes it's just being like, you know, this
• 1:07:31
  is what my day looked like.
• 1:07:32
  This is how hard it was.
• 1:07:33
  These are all the fires I put out, and, and they matter.
• 1:07:36
  Right.
• 1:07:39
  Yeah.
• 1:07:39
  Another thought I had before we move on to our, uh, wrap up fun questions
• 1:07:44
  was, as a parent, sometimes it feels like there's extra pressure on your
• 1:07:50
  relationship because you're trying to model a relationship for your
• 1:07:55
  kids, which I know is important.
• 1:07:57
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:07:57
  , and I know I've heard lots about before, about, um, you know, fighting
• 1:08:01
  fair and letting kids see you resolve your arguments and although, you know,
• 1:08:04
  nice in theory things, but mm-hmm.
• 1:08:07
  , how do you both have a healthy relationship and model a
• 1:08:11
  healthy relationship without compromising your relationship?
• 1:08:16
  I guess it's kind of going in a circle, but do you know what I'm trying to say?
• 1:08:20
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:08:21
  . No, and I agree, and I think that's when I think we get inundated with too many
• 1:08:26
  messages of what the right thing to do is, um, in, in a family or in a couple.
• 1:08:32
  Like I think it's about figuring out what feels safe and okay in your family.
• 1:08:35
  And again, I think that's kind of comes back to, to Katie.
• 1:08:39
  Uh, conversation around like recognizing we each come in with, with different
• 1:08:42
  relationship experiences and family experiences, and that informs what
• 1:08:45
  being respectful or fighting fair or how we can be communicated with.
• 1:08:50
  Like, I'm really sensitive to yelling, so that doesn't work too well with me.
• 1:08:54
  I shut down immediately, um, where there's other families that
• 1:08:57
  yell at each other constantly.
• 1:08:59
  Um, so it's about figuring out what works for you and then it's also
• 1:09:03
  recognizing you don't need to be perfect.
• 1:09:06
  Um, I think that's, that's a huge part.
• 1:09:08
  Like you don't have to have the perfect relationship.
• 1:09:11
  You don't have to always choose your words perfectly.
• 1:09:13
  It'd be nice if you can sometimes do that, um, when you're, you're fully charged
• 1:09:18
  and, and ready to, to be a healthy person.
• 1:09:20
  But the key I think for me, or at least what I try to, to use that helps me
• 1:09:25
  and my family is, is to be accountable for your words or your actions.
• 1:09:30
  And so if you've said something off the cuff, um, that was
• 1:09:34
  hurtful for me, I swear.
• 1:09:36
  Like a lot.
• 1:09:37
  Um, it's a coping strategy.
• 1:09:39
  And so I have small people.
• 1:09:41
  I, when they were little, I used to say fudge instead of the other word, but,
• 1:09:45
  but now I've just recognized that these little humans can tolerate me saying
• 1:09:48
  swear words and not say them themselves inappropriately, which is great.
• 1:09:52
  And so it's about being, being kind of flexible.
• 1:09:55
  I mean, like, you don't have to be perfect and it's being accountable
• 1:09:57
  and it's making apologies.
• 1:09:58
  So if you've said or done something with one of the kids in your
• 1:10:02
  communication with them or even your partner to let them see you come
• 1:10:05
  back and be like, I messed up there.
• 1:10:08
  Like, I was really impatient.
• 1:10:09
  Um, I, I took some frustration out, out on you that had nothing to do with you.
• 1:10:15
  Uh, or those were really hurtful words I used, I wish I would've
• 1:10:18
  said it this way instead.
• 1:10:19
  And so I think the big part is be compassionate.
• 1:10:21
  Don't feel like you need to be perfect in your communication all the time.
• 1:10:24
  You can't be that perfect role model.
• 1:10:27
  And if you mess up, I think the most healthiest thing you can model for your
• 1:10:30
  kids is accountability and apologies.
• 1:10:34
  those and like real apologies, not like, sorry, , which is how my kids
• 1:10:37
  say sorry to each other sometimes when I encourage 'em to do it, but like,
• 1:10:41
  like a real story, like I messed up and I'm sorry for, for that and this
• 1:10:45
  is how I would like to make it better.
• 1:10:47
  Don't be
• 1:10:47
  perfect.
• 1:10:48
  Got it.
• 1:10:49
  I can do it.
• 1:10:49
  Don't have to be perfect.
• 1:10:50
  We can be perfect like Yeah, that's right.
• 1:10:53
  Yeah.
• 1:10:53
  It's just recovering from all those imperfections that can, can really be
• 1:10:57
  the healthiest things for kids to see.
• 1:10:59
  Yeah.
• 1:11:00
  I've started trying to apologize to my kids and it's, it's hard.
• 1:11:04
  I mean, they're six and almost five and so pardon of me feels
• 1:11:08
  like, you know, I'm a grownup.
• 1:11:10
  I shouldn't have to apologize to you because that's how I was raised.
• 1:11:13
  And yes, it turns out that they are still people even if they're short and you
• 1:11:18
  still have to be nice and that's how they learn to not be jerks to other people, so.
• 1:11:24
  Exactly.
• 1:11:26
  Exactly.
• 1:11:26
  And I think you had said that in a previous episode, I was listening
• 1:11:29
  to it, but like that's kinda like the goal parenting is like, , try
• 1:11:31
  to make sure that they're not jerks.
• 1:11:33
  Yeah.
• 1:11:34
  Um, which
• 1:11:34
  is a lot work.
• 1:11:35
  I like to say that my goal is that maybe they'll still have to go to therapy,
• 1:11:37
  but they should at least have to go to therapy for new stuff and not stuff
• 1:11:40
  that's like five generations old already.
• 1:11:43
  Cuz , this generational trauma is just, we could be done with that.
• 1:11:50
  It's the pits.
• 1:11:51
  Yeah.
• 1:11:51
  So we ask all of our guests, if you were going to dominate a category at
• 1:11:55
  the county fair, what would it be?
• 1:11:56
  And categories can be real or made up to ensure that you win.
• 1:12:01
  Okay.
• 1:12:02
  When I thought about this, I honestly wanted to come up with
• 1:12:05
  some really, really badass answer.
• 1:12:07
  Um, but I'm terribly uncoordinated.
• 1:12:09
  Uh, but I am quite, and I'm not a good cook at all, although everyone does
• 1:12:14
  eat my food and complain about it.
• 1:12:16
  But I am really crafty.
• 1:12:18
  So, and my kids often, uh, in our area, they often enter the
• 1:12:23
  competitions for school for like coloring or creating things.
• 1:12:25
  So I think anything that involved paint, scissors, or glue.
• 1:12:29
  I think I could dominate that.
• 1:12:30
  I think I could work that, that competition at the the county fair.
• 1:12:34
  Sweet.
• 1:12:34
  Sometimes some kind of collage or something.
• 1:12:37
  I think there should be an adult.
• 1:12:38
  Exactly.
• 1:12:39
  I totally, there should be an adult collage category.
• 1:12:41
  I used to rock a collage, although there are a lot less
• 1:12:43
  magazines than they used to be.
• 1:12:45
  It does make it
• 1:12:45
  harder.
• 1:12:46
  Right.
• 1:12:47
  Finding the print material.
• 1:12:48
  You have to, you end up having to like print it off of your
• 1:12:51
  computer.
• 1:12:51
  . That's right.
• 1:12:52
  That's a lot more steps.
• 1:12:53
  Yeah.
• 1:12:54
  Yep.
• 1:12:55
  Do you have any other thoughts before you move into our, uh,
• 1:12:58
  cussing and discussing segment?
• 1:13:00
  You covered a lot of territory today.
• 1:13:01
  I just thought I would, in case you had any other, anything else that came across
• 1:13:05
  your mind before we move on completely or do you think we're good for now?
• 1:13:10
  I would say that the main message, if I could get it out to, to everyone in
• 1:13:13
  terms of the things that I feel really stand out is just recognizing that the
• 1:13:17
  small things make a big difference.
• 1:13:19
  Um, and make a repair, apologize when you mess up.
• 1:13:22
  Like I think if you can, can do those things to, to kind of show
• 1:13:26
  appreciation to your partner.
• 1:13:28
  to connect on a physical way or to connect on an emotional level,
• 1:13:33
  like all those small things.
• 1:13:34
  It can be even just a simple thing.
• 1:13:36
  Like, you know, I, you know, I, I might have saw something really cool on my
• 1:13:40
  phone and I wanted to, to show my partner that, you know, if he didn't look up
• 1:13:43
  from his phone, it just kind of kept doing his own thing that has an impact.
• 1:13:47
  Like, you just don't feel, you don't feel connect, connected.
• 1:13:50
  You don't feel valued.
• 1:13:51
  But just taking a moment to look and take a look over and be like, oh
• 1:13:53
  yeah, that's a really funny video.
• 1:13:54
  You know, and just paying attention.
• 1:13:57
  Uh, the gottman's call it turning towards, like, just turning towards
• 1:14:00
  and, and paying attention and showing value for what your partner does.
• 1:14:03
  Those small little things, those small acts really, really, really
• 1:14:05
  add up for a healthy relationship.
• 1:14:09
  . It's good to know that the memes that my husband and I are sending each other are
• 1:14:12
  actually a, a, a good connecting tool.
• 1:14:14
  I, uh, hadn't thought of that.
• 1:14:16
  Totally.
• 1:14:16
  It's like therapeutic.
• 1:14:17
  It totally is.
• 1:14:18
  , there's, yeah, between the yes, no and can you get this thing text?
• 1:14:23
  There are a lot of, uh, strange, strange memes going back and forth,
• 1:14:27
  so that's part, that's perfect, part of connecting as a couple.
• 1:14:30
  So we'll go ahead and move into our cussing and discussing segment, and
• 1:14:34
  listeners can leave their cussing and discussing entries with us, and you can
• 1:14:39
  check the show notes for our speak pipe or our email to leave those for us.
• 1:14:43
  Katie, what are you cussing and discussing this week?
• 1:14:46
  TV
• 1:14:47
  remotes.
• 1:14:48
  They're bullshit.
• 1:14:50
  , did you lose one?
• 1:14:51
  No, we have like three of them be, I mean, we have three of them
• 1:14:54
  because they keep getting lost , but the battery doors fall off.
• 1:14:59
  The buttons don't work.
• 1:15:00
  Right.
• 1:15:01
  All of them have five times as many buttons as they can possibly actually
• 1:15:05
  need, because you know, they have their universal remotes because God
• 1:15:09
  knows what happened to the remote that came with the tv, but now we've got
• 1:15:12
  buttons for every possible thing under the sun, and we only just have the tv.
• 1:15:17
  We don't have surround sound or a Blueray player or whatever
• 1:15:21
  else we have buttons for.
• 1:15:24
  And they're always sticky because we have little kids, and mm-hmm.
• 1:15:30
  . Yeah.
• 1:15:30
  I just, two thumbs down.
• 1:15:32
  You know, we have people living in outer space.
• 1:15:34
  We should be able to have TV remotes that are not gross.
• 1:15:38
  That's that affirmative.
• 1:15:39
  And that aren't so complicated too.
• 1:15:41
  Right.
• 1:15:42
  But the kids never seem overwhelmed by it.
• 1:15:44
  They always know what buttons to press.
• 1:15:45
  Yeah.
• 1:15:45
  But you know, you're sitting there in the dark and you can't tell what button
• 1:15:49
  you're hitting because you have to hit the button for the remote to light
• 1:15:52
  up so you can see what button it is.
• 1:15:53
  And then you get old, you know, you got your bifocals and you're
• 1:15:56
  moving the remote back and forth so you can see what it says.
• 1:15:58
  And.
• 1:15:59
  and it's sticky.
• 1:16:00
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:16:01
  , or it's down in the couch and you have to stick your hand down in there and
• 1:16:03
  god knows what else you're gonna touch.
• 1:16:06
  I just
• 1:16:08
  , I added tiles like those little, like pager thingies to our remotes cuz I
• 1:16:12
  was tired of losing them and not being able to figure out where they were.
• 1:16:15
  So that's my hot tip for this week is stick a tile on your, uh, remote for
• 1:16:19
  when it gets stuck in the couch cushions.
• 1:16:20
  And then you don't have to check all them, because I could walk into
• 1:16:23
  the room and ask the people who use the remote previously where it is
• 1:16:25
  and none of them will have any idea.
• 1:16:28
  Well, them I hit the button and exactly, exactly where they were sitting.
• 1:16:31
  The worst two is we're just now getting out of the phase where we had to hide
• 1:16:35
  the remote to stop them from changing the channel on each other when they'd fight
• 1:16:40
  . And so we'd hide the remote and we'd never be able to find a damn thing again.
• 1:16:43
  He'd be like, well it's, you know, on top of the China cabinet, like.
• 1:16:47
  I don't know where it is cuz you gotta put it somewhere they can't see it.
• 1:16:50
  That was the hidden place yell today, you know?
• 1:16:52
  Yeah.
• 1:16:53
  . Yeah.
• 1:16:54
  All right Carrie, what do you have to discuss and
• 1:16:55
  discuss?
• 1:16:56
  Well, I do have a quick question, Arlene.
• 1:16:58
  How, how do you get the tile thing to stick to the, the remote control?
• 1:17:02
  Cause we're always losing it.
• 1:17:03
  I think it's like the main source of conflict in our house.
• 1:17:05
  There are some, the heck
• 1:17:06
  is like our little round stickers.
• 1:17:08
  They actually have like two-sided tape on them and those are the kind
• 1:17:11
  I bought now when the sticky stuff wears off, then I just like use packing
• 1:17:16
  tape and stuck it back on again.
• 1:17:19
  But yeah, there are like little round like button style tiles
• 1:17:22
  that have like two-sided tape.
• 1:17:23
  Oh.
• 1:17:24
  And you can stick them to
• 1:17:25
  whatever you want.
• 1:17:27
  Thank you so much that I'm actually going to be implementing cuz we can
• 1:17:30
  never find the ram remote control effort.
• 1:17:32
  Yeah.
• 1:17:32
  And it usually is in the couch cushions, mixed in with goldfish crackers, but
• 1:17:36
  yes.
• 1:17:36
  Yeah, crumbs.
• 1:17:38
  That's
• 1:17:38
  awesome.
• 1:17:39
  They should look into using that as a, as a building material.
• 1:17:42
  That, like cement that forms between the couch arms or whatever.
• 1:17:47
  Ugh.
• 1:17:48
  Look
• 1:17:48
  so
• 1:17:49
  gross.
• 1:17:49
  Yeah.
• 1:17:50
  Yeah.
• 1:17:50
  It was all the pet fur.
• 1:17:53
  So Carrie, what were you actually gonna, um, now see, I
• 1:17:56
  just interrupted you again.
• 1:17:57
  Well, yeah, I, no, no, it totally came up to me today.
• 1:18:00
  I first, I was gonna talk about, um, apologies cuz we had to come
• 1:18:03
  up on our, on the weekend where two kids were, were fighting and
• 1:18:07
  they were just like, ugh, sorry.
• 1:18:08
  And like, just didn't give that.
• 1:18:10
  But then I was like really agitated when I went.
• 1:18:13
  I got coffee this morning, this little treat for me.
• 1:18:16
  Um, and as I was in the, the drive-through and anyone in my area might actually know
• 1:18:19
  about the sign that I'm talking about.
• 1:18:21
  But you know how like in the drive-through of, um, Tim Hortons
• 1:18:24
  often has like a, like a whole bunch of science advertising businesses.
• 1:18:28
  Like it's a prime location obviously, when you're sitting in the
• 1:18:30
  drive-through and one of those things there, what really bothers me, it's,
• 1:18:33
  it's two real estate professionals and it says buy a bigger house.
• 1:18:37
  It's cheaper than divorce.
• 1:18:39
  That's the message.
• 1:18:40
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:18:41
  . And it really, really bothers me, not just cuz it's superficial, um, but it
• 1:18:46
  really bothers me because I think it's playing on people's vulnerabilities,
• 1:18:50
  um, and their insecurities.
• 1:18:51
  And, and it's also giving the opposite of the message that we've been talking
• 1:18:55
  about today, where you have to do these really big things in order
• 1:18:58
  to keep your relationship healthy.
• 1:19:00
  It.
• 1:19:01
  , you know, oh, your partner's not heavy, then you need to buy them a bigger house.
• 1:19:03
  Or you should, you know, buy them a new piece of jewelry.
• 1:19:07
  Or in my case, buy my husband a new Massey tractor.
• 1:19:09
  Like, you know, it's right.
• 1:19:10
  Yes.
• 1:19:10
  Throw money at it.
• 1:19:11
  That'll fix it.
• 1:19:12
  Throw money at it.
• 1:19:13
  That'll fix it.
• 1:19:13
  Yeah, that'll solve it.
• 1:19:15
  I just, it bothers me, like, I'm like, oh, it's playing on vulnerabilities.
• 1:19:18
  It's also the wrong message.
• 1:19:19
  Like, it's not true at all.
• 1:19:21
  Sometimes buying that bigger house would be the thing that causes a
• 1:19:23
  relationship to break down further because of the financial strain.
• 1:19:26
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:19:27
  . So that's, that was my agitating piece today.
• 1:19:29
  Is that, that unhealthy message?
• 1:19:31
  Yeah.
• 1:19:32
  I
• 1:19:32
  imagine that as a couple's therapist, that would, uh, definitely be
• 1:19:36
  a, not the message you wanna
• 1:19:37
  see.
• 1:19:37
  You need to just put your ad out there that says, you know,
• 1:19:40
  couple's therapy cheaper than divorce or a bigger house like
• 1:19:45
  . Yeah, yeah.
• 1:19:46
  Put yours
• 1:19:46
  right beside it.
• 1:19:47
  Put a sticker on it.
• 1:19:48
  I honestly thought about that.
• 1:19:49
  I was like, could I?
• 1:19:50
  You should.
• 1:19:51
  Yeah, you'll, you'll see the National Farmer Mental Health Alliance now
• 1:19:54
  that they're probably supporting the
• 1:19:56
  on your message.
• 1:19:56
  Arlene, what do you have to, people would notice it.
• 1:19:58
  Yeah.
• 1:19:59
  What do you have to discuss and discuss?
• 1:20:01
  We had a conversation earlier this week.
• 1:20:04
  We've had a pretty busy week with interviews, and we had a conversation
• 1:20:06
  earlier this week where we talked about not having or trying to reduce
• 1:20:10
  the amount of guilt that we have.
• 1:20:12
  And then not very long after I got a call from the principal for
• 1:20:15
  one of the kids, they did a thing.
• 1:20:17
  It doesn't really matter what it is, but my immediate response
• 1:20:21
  in my head was feeling guilty myself for what my kid had done.
• 1:20:27
  And I don't know how I get, I mean, I'm sure that probably lots of people feel
• 1:20:31
  the same way, so that's why I'm saying it, but it's just like such a weird
• 1:20:35
  brain thing to be like, I didn't do that.
• 1:20:38
  You know, like, yes, the person that lives in my house and who
• 1:20:41
  happens to be my child did that thing, but I did not do that thing.
• 1:20:44
  So why do I feel so bad about it?
• 1:20:46
  I mean, yes, he's, you know, there were gonna be consequences and we were gonna
• 1:20:49
  discuss it and all that kind of stuff.
• 1:20:51
  But yeah, it, you're, my brain jumped immediately to, oh, I feel so bad.
• 1:20:55
  What am I going to do, uh, to make this better?
• 1:20:58
  And it was like, that's not my job, but mm-hmm.
• 1:21:01
  Yeah, it was, it was just interesting that we'd also had just had that conversation.
• 1:21:05
  So yeah, that's where my head went, but at least I had the, I also had
• 1:21:11
  it in my head to be like, stop , you know, this is, this is not your thing.
• 1:21:17
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:21:19
  It's not, and yet it's sometimes we feel like it is, like we can feel really
• 1:21:23
  judged for the actions of our children or any one of our family members, as
• 1:21:27
  if we shaped them into that human.
• 1:21:29
  And although you might have an influence on it mm-hmm.
• 1:21:32
  , you can't control it.
• 1:21:33
  So, yeah.
• 1:21:33
  Absolutely.
• 1:21:35
  . Yeah.
• 1:21:36
  So that was my thing this week.
• 1:21:38
  So I'm still gonna say, just remember, just be like, I'm a good mom.
• 1:21:41
  , banish the guilt . That's right.
• 1:21:44
  Get rid of
• 1:21:44
  that Guilt and extended family, uh, bonuses.
• 1:21:48
  One of his consequences was that he had to go and shovel grandma's front steps.
• 1:21:51
  So it all worked out.
• 1:21:52
  She got chores done.
• 1:21:53
  Ah, and he got, uh, some consequences for some things that went on.
• 1:21:58
  So we wanna thank you so much, Carrie, for joining us today.
• 1:22:02
  If people want to connect with you, where should they find you online?
• 1:22:05
  What's the, what's the link?
• 1:22:08
  Um, in terms of my private practice, they, if they, if someone wanted
• 1:22:12
  to work with me, they could find me@flourishwithcohesion.com or
• 1:22:15
  they can follow me on my Instagram account, which I just love.
• 1:22:18
  It's such a fun, creative place for me.
• 1:22:21
  Um, at Compassionate underscore c.
• 1:22:23
  Or you can find me through the National Pharma of Mental Health
• 1:22:25
  Alliance, which is nfm h a.ca.
• 1:22:29
  Or you can follow us online at UM, N F M H A Alliance , which is unfortunate that
• 1:22:36
  we couldn't find something simpler there.
• 1:22:38
  So you can find us either probably on our website or or online.
• 1:22:42
  Definitely.
• 1:22:43
  And we will include all that in the show notes too.
• 1:22:46
  Thank you.
• 1:22:46
  It was great to talk to you.
• 1:22:47
  Thank you.
• 1:22:47
  Yeah.
• 1:22:47
  Thanks for talking to us.
• 1:22:48
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• 1:22:50
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• 1:22:54
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