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What Men Don't Understand About Postpartum · Don Talk - Conversations with Mike Turner

• Malaika Brown, Ph.D.: think the issue is others, because I think that there's an empathy gap. And we know that in our society, a black person and a white person could do the exact same thing, and the level of empathy for that black person will be much lower. And so when you asked about these two cases initially, I went and I looked to see if there was any studies that were done to see how people respond to a black and a white person that have the same mental health issues. And there were four studies that I found just briefly that basically said both lay people and professionals will see mental illness in a black person as less distressing than they would in a white person. So they're already saying that this is not as big of a deal. So if they commit a crime, like for se in this case, then that mental illness didn't really have that big of a part in it. It's something else other than that. But let it be a white person, the first thing they go to typically. Is mental illness. Mike Turner: Welcome everybody to another episode of Don Talk Conversations with Mike Turner. This is going to be an interesting one today for us here. We're talking about postpartum motherhood, mental health, race, recognition, and support responsibility. So, what men don't understand about postpartum. So, this is the topic that we're going to end up discussing, but we're going to start off with some rapid fire questioning. I'll be the first to let you know that. I'm not gonna answer any these because my experience is completely different from all you guys. I was a single parent, so my answer cut to all these questions is gonna be the dad, the dad, the dad. So I'm gonna ask you guys. So we'll start off and we'll go Malaika Keyla and Tim in that order. So who thinks there were who thinks they were more prepared for the first baby? The mom or the dad? Or both? Malaika Brown, Ph.D.: I would say me and just simply I come from a large family. So, Mike, I know you understand this. When you Mike Turner: Yeah. Malaika Brown, Ph.D.: when you come from a big family, you have a built-in support system. So I had a mother that had parented seven kids, and then I had a brother that was already a parent and my sister in law. So I feel like that kind of helped me be prepared. Chakeyla Anderson: So like I don't help me put that. Malaika Brown, Ph.D.: But I was engaged and the dad not so much. Mike Turner: All right, Keila? Chakeyla Anderson: So I think he thought he was probably more prepared. Tim: Yeah. Chakeyla Anderson: I was nervous because I came from a family of a lot of mothers but single mothers. and then I had like high career aspirations, so I wasn't quite mentally ready to take on the full challenge of motherhood. and balance what I thought I was going to do. But he was extremely excited and thought that, you know, he had everything down and he was going, you know, to have fatherhood just, you know, knocked out. Mike Turner: Gotcha, gotcha. Tim? Tim: sidebar to Keyla remember, and I I think it's also fair to mention Keyla was expecting two simultaneously. So that that added another variable to it. Just yeah. Mike Turner: Yeah. Tim: for for me, I would say you know, in my opinion, we were on the same level. I think we both tried to prepare as best we can, but we were both new to it. I would say my wife, she just has a sister. I don't know how many cousins or anything younger than her that she helped with or whatever. And me, I had really no experience. So I think we were on the same page. Mike Turner: Yeah, yeah, the weast work worth of experience, Tim. Tim: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Couple couple times, yeah, you know. Mike Turner: So those who don't know, Tim helped me watch my daughter Taylor while I was in grad school. When I took her back to grad school, I like, Tim, I need your help. I got class from five to nine, can you watch her? So that was my babysitter while I got things figured out. all right, so who panics first when the baby makes some strange noise? The mom or the dad? Malaika Brown, Ph.D.: That's a good question. Mike Turner: Mm. Malaika Brown, Ph.D.: Cause mine are all grown and I still have those panic moments as a mother. I don't think you ever get over that. I would probably say me, probably because I understand what they're communicating because you spend so much time with them. You the cries mean something different. So you do understand what it means. So I I would say for me it was was the mother. Mike Turner: Keyla Chakeyla Anderson: Yeah, I I agree. I th I think I was more attuned to hearing the noise or hearing the sounds, a lot more than he was. I he absolutely sometimes didn't even recognize, you know, that something was going on. And, you know, you you listen for everything. You listen for no noise, right? Especially when you have twins. When you don't hear anything, there's a problem. there they're doing something. Or you know, any sound could be either something medical or they need fed and so that maternal instinct kicks in pretty quickly. Even if you don't think you have the maternal instinct, it comes. It you got it. Mike Turner: Gotcha. Tim. Tim: and in my end, I know for I believe all three of ours, we had like the whole bassinet or whatever right by the bed. So we both heard. but if I'm being honest, like I was just waiting to see what she was gonna say or if I had to do something. You Mike Turner: Yeah. Tim: know? yeah, so I would say we both heard, but I mean, I would agree with the the ladies and you know, I would say she was more in tune to maybe what was needed. but yeah, I was kinda sitting there, you know, like, all right, do I need to do something or not? Mike Turner: Hey, at least you're honest. I can appreciate that. Tim: Hm. You said what? Mike Turner: At least you're honest. I could appreciate that. Tim: yeah. I ain't got a lot of kicking. Mike Turner: Yeah. Are who Googles more ridiculous parenting questions? Malaika Brown, Ph.D.: I wasn't Googling when I was a p raising, like when they were small, I wasn't Google wasn't really a thing we used. So honestly, my Google was my village. I asked my grandmothers, I asked my mom, I asked aunts. They were my Google. and I think I did ask some crazy questions. If something was just different, if their bowel movements were the wrong color, I had questions. Like I had questions about the most ridiculous things, but yeah, definitely not Google, but I was asking a village for sure. Chakeyla Anderson: Yep. So, I'm a constant curious person. So if there's anything amiss, I I'm looking it up. We took my daughter twin to the pediatrician so much she said, Quit bringing her here. That girl's just a crybaby. You know, but I'm like, but she's crying like this, you know, so it's a little different than than that. And my pediatrician was a woman of color. So she's like, look, girl, I know what you're going through. I'm gonna have to take my doctor hat off and talk to you a little bit, you know, s but you know, anything, any any you know, if I if I validated that their diapers change, you've eaten, you know, you've been you've burped and there's something that's not calming them, I'm going to try to figure out what it is. So after I've did all the troubleshooting and problem solving that I can in person. So whether that is you know calling a friend, calling family or looking it up, you know, anything. And it could be, it could also be you know, the the color of stool. You know, it's bright green today and I don't remember that. Or, you know, you have the experien I've had an experience where you've they've had explosive diarrhea, you know, and you're like, is this supposed to happen? Is everybody okay? You know. So, you know, those are things that, you know, when you have your second child, you know, or my second pregnancy, I'm like, shoot, you know, it's it's much easier the second time. But the first having two babies, I want to know everything and why is this happening? And so it could be Google online, it could be some of the medical books I had and it also could be family members, but that that's definitely me. Mike Turner: Mm-hmm. Tim: so in my situation, obviously my wife, Falanda, you know, she's she's an engineer, so she be trying to figure stuff out anyway. And and to this day, still does that for whatever. So me, I'm more of a okay, let's monitor, look, see what's going on. All right. You know, is there a fever? Is this something that I could see that we need to really call somebody? So I would say to you know, the the short answer is, yeah, she was googling, asking questions, doing a lot of stuff. Again, I was sitting, you know, waiting to hear what instruction I needed to get or to, or sometimes to, all right, you know, like like Keelapona, all right, you need to calm down. Like you y you know, it's like every three days, every something's something's happening. So let's just just wait on this one. So Mike Turner: Yeah, I definitely Googled everything. Called my mom, checked on, figured out what I had no idea what I was doing. So I had every everything I'm calling, searching on the internet, trying to figure it all out. okay, who secretly lets the kids do something that the other parent says no to? Malaika Brown, Ph.D.: that's that's my husband all day. That's definitely not Mike Turner: Yeah. Malaika Brown, Ph.D.: me. They know which one to go to with that one. It was not me. Chakeyla Anderson: Absolutely their dad. They did stuff I they knew not to tell me about, you know, and then it I don't he I he was he was, you know, he was dad. but there also was this friend element that he had that I couldn't simply afford to have, you know, with them. So on, you know, what I couldn't say or didn't say at the time was I'm glad that they had that balance in the house 'cause, you know, kids need that balance as well. and it's good for him for them to have an outlet, but some of the crap he let them do, I I could've choked him for it. Just like no. Tim: Hmm. I I would say in in our household it's kind of even across the board. I'm a strong disciplinarian. I don't I literally don't let them get away with anything. I try not to. but you know, sometimes I'll let them do some things. you know, not too often, but every now and again, if Alon Duro will be like, You let them do that? And then sometimes it'll be the same with her. You know, so we're we're pretty much in alignment on on that. So, you know, every now and again either of us could let them do something, but for the most part, they don't get a lot of I don't wanna say freedoms is the wrong wow I think that's the wrong word, but like we don't let them do anything crazy. Mike Turner: Mm. I had Taylor Taylor spent their summers or holidays with my mom, my parents, or my sister Karen. So every time I got her back from that, I had to reprogram her. Because they just let her do whatever they wanted. I'm pretty sure you was there for some of that too, Malika. You probably at fault too. Malaika Brown, Ph.D.: Yeah, yeah, but that's our job. We're not the parent. Tim: Ha ha ha. Mike Turner: All right, who complains about losing sleep the most? Malaika Brown, Ph.D.: I would say the dad. Because honestly, I don't mind losing sleep to make sure that they're okay. I had a a recent situation where my youngest daughter got in a car accident. It was 2 a.m. and she woke me up out of my sleep. And the last thing I was really concerned with was the fact that I was losing sleep. I was just mostly concerned about her well being. So I never really worried about losing sleep. That was the least of my concerns. I just wanted them to be okay. Chakeyla Anderson: Yeah, that's a good question. I'm not sure either that I just don't remember. I don't really remember having the discussion around loss of sleep. So I don't really need a whole lot of hours anyway. So I my my natural sleep schedule is pretty short. and the twins and my single pregnancy daughter. They all slept pretty well. So I d I just either that or I just don't remember. and so I don't recall any conversations around that, but if there were, it would have been him. so it would have been, you know, i he valued getting sleep and it didn't matter what time of day it was, he was gonna make sure he got all of his hours in for sleep. So probably it would have been more on him than it would have been on me. Mike Turner: We know you complain, Tim. Tim: Mm-hmm. Mike Turner: You didn't gotta answer, Tim, it was you. Chakeyla Anderson: Ha ha Tim: No, it's it's it's the opposite. and again, to this day. So I I stay up late. So we had a great dynamic. So if you know, the kids woke up or whatever, I was still always up. Like I still, you know, even though I I might be, you know, in pajamas now, in the bed or whatever, I usually don't go to bed before midnight, sometimes two AM. That's every day. You know, unless I'm just tired. And so, yeah, we had a good dynamic because my wife will go to bed at like nine thirty. So when you have a child, right, and they wake up at eleven or something, and it was good because when it got to the point where, you know, I could feed them or whatever and she wasn't breastfeeding, I just took care of it because I was up anyway and it didn't didn't bother me. So yeah, I don't I would say I'm more aligned with Kilo on that. Like I don't I don't You know, I'm up late all the time. So I don't worry about Mike Turner: Yeah. Tim: the sleep aspect. Mike Turner: Okay. Yeah, I got no sleep during the time I had her during grad school. And I look back, I don't know how I did it. 'Cause grad school and work during the day, picked her up from daycare, then had to like hack c evening classes. So that's when I had to find somebody else to watch her from five to eight, come back from class, I get a hour with her before it's time to get her to sleep. She's knocked out within thirty, I mean, by nine thirty at the latest. Then I got homework to do. So I would do homework till two o'clock in the morning. And then Tim: Yeah. Yeah. Mike Turner: back up at six to do it all over again. And so yeah, I don't know how I made it. Tim: I rem I now that that that I do remember, Mike. I remember you just I'm tired. I'm tired. Like, yo, Mike Turner: Yeah. Tim: that was that was like your your main deal. That was like your Mike Turner: Yeah. Tim: main phrase there at at that at that time, you know. Mike Turner: Yeah, I I look back on how I did it. But I did it was good nonetheless. All right, last question. who is most likely to use the kids as an excuse to get out of something? Malaika Brown, Ph.D.: probably my husband, not me. I'ma just say I don't wanna do it. Yeah, he's actually used me and the kids as excuses to get out of stuff. Chakeyla Anderson: For sure, for sure their dad. at the time he absolutely everything was well I had to do this for the kids or I I I gotta take them here where I did everything I could not to use the kids as an excuse. and some of that came from the stigma of being a working mother and making sure that that no one ever thought that there would be any issues with me getting things done because I am now a mother. So I was purposefully excluding any anything to do with the kids on why, you know, I couldn't or wouldn't do something. But he he used it like it was great for him. It was yeah. Tim: Yeah. Chakeyla Anderson: Right. Tim: I think I would say n neither me or my wife we ever use the kids. It's like listen, I'm if I ain't doing it, I ain't doing it. And anybody knows me, I'm pretty outspoken and so is my wife and yeah, we just ain't doing it. So we we we don't yeah, no, no. un un unless it was valid. Unless it was literally something with the kids, but no, we don't use you know, for the fake with the kid, you know. To get out of some. Mike Turner: Yeah. I would say about ninety eight percent Tim: No. Mike Turner: of the time I told people no, it was be I used Taylor as an excuse. Chakeyla Anderson: Ha. Mike Turner: Whether it was justified or not, I was just like, I gotta go handle this for Taylor or Taylor's not fit. I was every time. Malaika Brown, Ph.D.: It's our kid. Tim: Mm-hmm. Chakeyla Anderson: Smart move, Mike. Smart move. Mike Turner: Every time. Tim: Yeah. Malaika Brown, Ph.D.: bad at it. Chakeyla Anderson: no, hey. Use it. Mike Turner: All Now we have we're gonna go into what happens after the baby, all right. So we have, if you haven't figured this out out by now, Shaquila has three kids, two twins, a pair of twins and one single kid. She's also a vice president, entrepreneur, mentor, philanthropist. Malika is a board certified psychologist out of California, has two daughters. Tim has three kids, married for how long, Tim? Malaika Brown, Ph.D.: Three daughters. I got three daughters. You missed one. My oldest is my bonus child, so I got three. I count her two. She belongs to me. I gave Mike Turner: You have three? my bad. Three. Gotcha. All right, three. My bad. You been married for how long, Malika? Tim: Yeah. Malaika Brown, Ph.D.: I gave birth to two. I've been married for twenty Jesus. What year is this? Twenty six? Twenty-three years. Mike Turner: Okay. Tim has three. How long have you been married, Tim? Tim: this year ooh no what is it? next week. Next next week'll be sixteen. No, Mike Turner: Ooh, I'll cut this out. Don't worry, I'll cut the paws out. Chakeyla Anderson: Next week. Tim: next week. Next week. It's next week. Next week'll be sixteen. Mike Turner: I hope you got something planned. Yeah, I hope you got something planned. So Tim is in commercial and sales operations. so you got a wide variety of of of viewpoints here. So this is this is a good topic for us to have, for us to try to get an understanding of of what's going on. So I'm gonna start with you, Malika. When we say postpartum, what do men fundamentally misunderstand? Malaika Brown, Ph.D.: I won't just label men, because I feel like people in general misunderstand this, is that they think postpartum is when the mother has the checkup after she's given birth. So that's typically at the six-week mark. if they have a C-section, it may be at a different point. But the thought process is that postpartum is six weeks, when really it could be a year at minimum, maybe even longer, depending on how things return to normal for that mother. And so I think that's probably the biggest misconception is the time frame that their body is really recovering after they give birth to the baby. And that's usually a difficult time that things can happen, unfortunately. Mike Turner: Right. So what so I know like I don't understand, I don't know if Tim when we'll ask you Tim if you experience any any of this, you know, what type of changes psychologically and emotional changes can happen during and after childbirth that people don't recognize? Malaika Brown, Ph.D.: there could be disconnection with their body itself. So how they connect it with their body prior to being pregnant and even during the pregnancy, they feel a disconnect sometimes afterwards. disconnect as far as affect and emotional connection with the baby, with other people around them. clearly when you have lack of a support system, the depressive possibility is actually higher. not understanding what's happening with their bodies. And so they feel like something's wrong with them, but they don't understand what it is. So they may feel as if they're crazy, like they're just making things up. And so that's usually a big issue. W what we used to call the baby blues really is more severe than than as nice as that sounds. And I think that those are some of the the major issues that happen. Mike Turner: Yeah. And Chakeyla like your oldest are how old now? Chakeyla Anderson: They're nineteen now. Mike Turner: And and do you remember going through any of these type of feelings and emotions? Chakeyla Anderson: so what I remember is I had so much going on at that time, that it took a while for me to kinda catch up to what was really going on. A at the time the day before the twins were born, I just finished my final for my master's and I gave birth the next day. During the same time period, my father eventually this was when the twins were about were a few weeks old, he relocated from Kentucky to Texas and that was a whole change too. So I've I've got like my father who I hadn't lived with since I was five relocating into the home. My mom Tim: Yeah. Chakeyla Anderson: came to help take care of the twins and we have a very complicated relationship. I'm married or Actually I wasn't married. We didn't get married until the the twins were two, but I have my, you know, father of the children there. We have a little bit of a contentious relationship, so I felt like I was juggling a whole lot of things and then I just gave birth to t two human beings. I'm working up in in my career and I don't think I fully took in everything all at once. But at some point I remember thinking I don't feel like the same person I used to be. And I don't remember what that feels like. And I had this I didn't like how I looked either. And I I just didn't I I think I was disconnected with the joy that of bringing two humans into the world and the fact that yes, you're not going to be the same and yes, you're not gonna look the same, but look at what you did. So it took me a while to really connect those things back, but because I had so much going on, I I'm not sure that I really fully understood the period that I was in until years later you look back and you and you realize what you were going through. because the as Malika stated, you don't if you don't have a strong support system, then you end up being the strong person and you just you push through it. Mike Turner: Yeah, I I can't imagine. is there is there anything that like could be happening right in front of the husband's eyes, husband's or father's eye eyes, that he could completely misread or not see at all? Malaika Brown, Ph.D.: Say yes, because a lot of it is happening mentally and then internally within the body. And so, other than the being tired and just the things that you would expect for a mother to be feeling or expressing after giving birth to another human being, and and then if they give birth to multiples, you would expect them to be tired and just kind of you know drugged down. But because a lot of stuff that's it's internal and the mother is trying to figure out. what is happening with her. So she can't verbalize and express what she's dealing with a lot of times. And then don't add on top of that other types of chaos. Right. I remember when I had my second daughter, when I gave birth the second time, I was separating from my husband at the time, who's the father of the the two girls. And I had to drive myself to to the actual hospital to give birth and have my best friend meet me to get my oldest, who was at the time seven months old. And so I had so much chaos happening around that time that I don't think I realized what was actually happening inside of me during that time. I do think I was functioning, but I also do think that I was probably dealing with low levels of depression and other things like that. So it was things that other people couldn't really see. And part of it was because I couldn't really express what was happening within me because I wasn't all that way, all the way sure either. Mike Turner: Yeah. Now Tim, did you like I can't answer this, so I'm I'm intrigued by this conversation because I was in school when my daughter's mom was going through her pregnancy and I didn't see my daughter 'til four months after she was born. So I didn't see any of this stuff. Tim, Tim: Yeah. Mike Turner: do you remember anything going on like this? Or did your mom ever talk to you about what could go on after the birth? Tim: N so no, my my mother, we never had that that conversation. and then what I can remember You know, I can't really speak for Philandra 'cause I can't remember because I wanna take this back to our first child, right? You know, 'cause that was when we both were, you know, didn't know anything. And you know, for me it was all excitement. Every every day was excitement. But I do recall one of the last work trips that my wife took, I was working the job and I was in a part of Michigan. I was about an hour and a half. I was in Kalamazoo and she was actually in Detroit. And I remember you know, going to see her before I caught my flight. And that was kind of the first time where she was telling me, you know, about her body. and maybe, you know, a little bit sad of, you know, what she could physically do or could not do. And, you know, some of the things that worried her, you know, even down to, you know, how. women aren't supposed to eat certain foods and everything. And so that was the first time where I really got the grasp the concept of, hey, for me, I'm just sitting here, you know, waiting, happy, excited. Whereas there's a lot of things that she's worried about, you know, for the first time. And then also for the first time, she has a whole person inside of her. And that was the first time, and I think she might have been, I don't know, seven months pregnant at the time. And that was the first time where I really kind of saw the effects of actually being pregnant. You know, 'cause even you know, she was look at my legs, look at my ankles, you know, it hurts when I walk, you know, sometimes. So I was like, wow. So I can say that I I did see and pick up some things. Kind of later on in the pregnancy. Mike Turner: Yeah. Well, what is it that I can only assume you've been with this individual for X amount of years, you supposedly have shared everything with them. So this is for Malika and Chakeyla Like you I will hope that you at that point in time there should be some type of relationship to where you should be able to tell what's going on. What is it that is in women that prevents you from wanting to talk about those issues with your partner for help, for just venting, getting it out so they could understand and help if there is anything they can do. Chakeyla Anderson: Well, I can answer just from my experience. So I was married for ten years to the father of all the my three children and in that relationship we didn't have that type of psychologically safe it it just was not a psych psychologically safe space to have that type of conversation without it possibly being taken out of context as being unfit or maybe not necessarily a safety thing for for the the kids, but it could have been taken out of context and shared with others that I didn't want to share that with. And if I'm not really quite sure what's going on And I'm just trying to work it out, you know, with an individual. you know, will this be taken the wrong way? So my partner wasn't that partner that I could have those type that type of conversation with. Thankfully, I did have s someone in my life that I could, you know, talk to about that, you know, when I've when I felt like I needed to. but know, that that was the challenge in my particular relationship. And then that's the person I'm with every day, and that's the person I'm raising children with. And so that just kind of adds a little bit to those to those struggles. And again, having to to just push through something that you probably should be able to sit in and analyze and determine if there's help that you need to get or Just have a good partner that can help you work through it. You know, so that those were some of the challenges I faced. Malaika Brown, Ph.D.: for me, I think it's be it's similar to what Keyla said. For me, it was a similar situation of safety. So my first husband, who's a father of the biological father of my kids, even though he didn't really raise them, he was not a safe space because when I was pregnant, he was not safe. There was an incident where he kind of grabbed me a little bit too aggressive. And so at that point, I left and went to my parents' house to stay with them when I was pregnant. Afterwards, when I had the baby, he did not show up to the hospital when she was born. So my parents were there, my siblings came, friends were there, he was not there. And a large part of the beginning of my postpartum journey was me doing it alone. So I really didn't have a person that I could go to. And clearly the father was not a safe space. When I got pregnant the second time because we tried to reconcile, he was. Pretty absent for that one too. So it wasn't a matter of not wanting to share. It was a matter of finding safe spaces. Honestly, some of the the spaces that were safe, Michael was your sisters in, you know, Hysen and like my friends that have been with me since I was child a child, we were children, they Mike Turner: Mm-hmm. Malaika Brown, Ph.D.: were the safe spaces. It wasn't that I didn't want to be able to speak to the father, and then, you know, my current husband comes into the equation. It was more so of feeling safe to do so because I'm already vulnerable. And so now you're asking me to open up and share my vulnerability with you, hoping that you're gonna be safe enough for it to land and it not damage me any more than I'm already damaged. Mike Turner: Now what do you when you say a safe safe space, what do you look for in your partner that creates that safety? 'Cause sometimes I'll be honest, us guys just don't know. We're just there. So what what do you look for? Malaika Brown, Ph.D.: Say for me, because we have different understandings, our bodies function differently. So there's really no way for either one of us to know when a man is having an issue for me to really understand that, and vice versa. But being open to just being a sounding board and just listening, not assuming, asking questions, definitely don't throw stereotypes in there. Because if you start throwing the stereotypes in there, I'm gonna assume, okay, we need to shut this down. This is not safe. But if you're just open to learn. And ask questions. I don't mind the asking of questions because you really don't understand. I think that that makes it safe. Tim: Okay. Malaika Brown, Ph.D.: I'll give like kind of a tangential example. I'm postmetal pausal, so I've been having some issues with female stuff related to that. And my husband started doing research on his own to just kind of understand what women, specifically black women, go through at this stage. And he was getting all this information and sharing it with me. That makes me feel safe because he realizes he doesn't know and he's willing to do. you know, his due diligence to try to get better understanding. And then he'll come and talk to me. He'll be like, Okay, I read this. Is this your experience? And then that's a place where we can start a conversation and a dialogue. Mike Turner: Einting a kilo. Chakeyla Anderson: I I think she hit it on the head and it sounds like she's got a great partner now. You know, you you want someone that is at least seeks to understand versus jumping to conclusions or brushing off things. And if you've got a good partner, your partner will know when you're not normal, right? And they'll recognize that sometimes before you will. And if they they recognize something is off, having that that safe comforting conversation and asking questions versus trying to diagnose in the moment so that they can so that you know you can have you feel okay talking through what you may not understand with someone who's gonna help you get through it. Mike Turner: Yeah. You taking notes, Tim? Tim: For what? I'm an expert. Chakeyla Anderson: Tim knows everything, Mike, don't you know that by now? Mike Turner: Yeah, I I forgot. I forgot. Tim: Come on. Stop it now. Yeah. Well well Mike Turner: Tim, is there is there anything that you're willing to admit? That's that's the key phrase, willing to admit that you were afraid, scared of, and becoming a parent that maybe you didn't initially let P know about, or that you told her later that Tim: Okay. Mike Turner: maybe that you still haven't told her about. And she gonna find out when you he when she listens to this podcast. Tim: I would say no. Just just based off of my own inexperience. You know, you know, y'all know I'm an athlete, I like challenges, and I don't like to fail, right? And so there was nothing I was afraid of, right? You know, but I would say hindsight being twenty twenty, I probably couldn't have could have been a little bit more cautious. probably could have taken some things a a bit more serious. but nothing that I was necessarily afraid of because for me I looked at every day as a a new experience, you know, with with child child raising. And I I lucky, right? I picked the right person. I picked the right partner. And so we, we pretty much, especially during the the younger stages of when the kids were firstborn, we had a pretty good system. And I the the one thing I will admit though is that I got a lot more laxadaisical on child two and three just because it wasn't new and exciting anymore. I, you know, I kind of knew the noises, I knew the sounds, I knew what was going on. And so that's the one thing I can say, and I I think my wife would agree, is that I wasn't as super dad as I was with my first child. Mike Turner: Yeah. I was scared shitless. I'm not gonna lie. Didn't know like I mean, 'cause here's the the story, like first of all, a lot of people don't know that I raised I was a single parent. But what what scared me is not being there for Taylor. Like that what scared me 'cause I would I initially got her on the weekends and every time I would get her on the weekends she was dirty so it looked like she ain't took a wasn't bathed in a few days and had a diaper rash. So I had forty eight hours to clean her up, clear up the diaper rash, and I had to put her back in that environment that yielded that. That was heartbreaking for me. So then I like I continue to say sh I didn't know what I was doing, but like I just knew I had to be there for her because it it yeah, ended up being the full primary caregiver at the point when she was eighteen months because she kept leaving her mom kept leaving her at my parents' house. So I went off to grad school, she her stayed with her mom. I came back for October break, she was at my parents' house. And then I'm like, all right, cool. I'm gonna come back for Thanksgiving, still at my parents' house. So I was like, okay, if I come back for Christmas and she's still here, I'm taking her back with me. come back for Christmas, she's still at my parents' house. So I just knew I had to be there. Didn't know how I was gonna do it. Well, how I was gonna make it happen, I just felt like it had to be there and I was gonna figure it out. And it was it was tough. And it was it I didn't know to this day I still question a lot of things I did as a parent 'cause I just didn't know. But now we had a relationship with me and Taylor ha has had those conversations where we we've been able to talk about those things right, wrong and different, as we grew up and how that's affected her, how it's affected me and and and made made for a better relationship now. So we live and we learn. Alright, so here's the next the next question. And we talk about this. So as I as you know, a lot of stuff has been coming up in the news about this postpartum psychosis and depression and stuff like this. So I started doing some research on this and then I thought initially I thought it was just Lindsey Clancy. and then I started doing some research and looking it up. So during her trial, the her defense brought up Andrea Yates, two thousand one. Same thing happened. She was initially convicted, but then or something a year later she was she was acquitted of all charges. Same same thing. And then I'm like, Okay, those are two white females. I see what happens. And then now as I continue to look up more stuff, Latarsha Sanders came up. So has anybody ever heard of Latarsha Sanders? Tim: I have it. Malaika Brown, Ph.D.: had mainly because of the judge in Mike Turner: Okay. So Chakeyla Anderson: No. Malaika Brown, Ph.D.: Clancy's case. It was the same judge. Mike Turner: yeah, same judge. The sac so it and Andrew Yates happened in two thousand one. Natarsha Sanders happened in two thousand eighteen, same judge in the Clancy case, and then you have Clancy in in that the ini the incident happened in twenty three and then it was just considered a a mistrial. But it was the same judge in s you know, out of Massachusetts. So now I'm like, okay, is this people don't want to say it or admit it, is this a race thing? And as I start to look at it, Oprah just came out with a podcast that was talking about this. And then Oprah claimed, I've talked to so many women that have that have murdered their kids. And I'm like, This is a this is a ongoing issue and and has been going on for a while. Now research, has Tim: Mm. Mike Turner: she talked to any black women? And she did talk to a black lady that did this. And that was Shacquan Dooley. Anybody heard her? That's Tim: Yeah. Mike Turner: a 2010 ten case where they tried to do the insanity plea insane postpartum depression. I guess her lawyers wasn't as good. And she was she was convicted. But Tim: Yeah. Mike Turner: What was interesting for me is like you see the compassion and empathy that Oprah had for Clancy. But if you look at this interview with Saquon Dooley, she, which is a black female, Oprah wanted her to be guilty. You could see it interview, the way she's asking her questions. I was like, I was blown up blown away. So when you look at that history, four cases, obviously there's more than this, but there's four cases, two virtually not found not guilty, two found guilty. It's important to note that Sanders is going through a retrial because. of the Clancy case. So what's the first thing that comes to your mind, Malika and Keyla like when you see this? Like, do you feel that you can be seen as quote unquote sick? I don't want to use that word sick or or can you admit it because of what history and cases have shown the difference between what happens and races? Chakeyla Anderson: I think there's go ahead. Malaika Brown, Ph.D.: I think the issue, the issue is not really us. I think the issue is others, because I think that there's an empathy gap. And we know that in our society, a black person and a white person could do the exact same thing, and the level of empathy for that black person will be much lower. And so when you asked about these two cases initially, I went and I looked to see if there was any studies that were done to see how people respond to a black and a white person that have the same mental health issues. And there were four studies that I found just briefly that basically said both lay people and professionals will see mental illness in a black person as less distressing than they would in a white person. So they're already saying that this is not as big of a deal. So if they commit a crime, like for se in this case, then that mental illness didn't really have that big of a part in it. It's something else other than that. But let it be a white person, the first thing they go to typically. Is mental illness. We look at it with school shooters. School shooters are overwhelmingly percentage wise white. It's always looking at was there a mental health issue? Was there something happening in their home? They're always looking for excuses to say that they were not a bad person to do this. But when it's a black person, they're automatically blaming the black person for the actions instead of looking to see what mitigating factors existed. So I just think it's the lack of empathy for black people as a whole. Mike Turner: Keila, you just wanna say something? Chakeyla Anderson: Yeah, to add on to that, just in general, even I mean, mental health already has a stigma related to it. There's just a clearly a lack of understanding in society as a whole. And then you've got the layered piece of you've the the racial divide and then the socioeconomic status divide on top of something that's already not well understood or accepted. But then even you look at things that are well understood and accepted. It you look at just health care in general. Black women d disproportionately are given less treatment than their white counterparts and even other women of color counterparts. We we're way, way down there. We have been seen as a group that can handle more pain. than others. So when we go in and we say that we are hurting, they there is an expectation that we should just be able to handle that. So there's a less likelihood of us getting the type right type of medication because because there's a a thought that we are misusing medication or we should just be able to to figure it out. we also just from a prenatal perspective, we just don't get the care that other people get. I can give you an actual examples of a young lady that worked at one of our shops that went in with problems and they c repeatedly turned her away until she became her own advocate for her health and then went back and then they finally after she had to find the right person to give her to understand what her condition is and make sure that she had a safe pregnancy. So We we are always the the str we are always struggling just to be seen and just to get that equal level of of health care, health treatment. I mean you see doctors going into getting treatment and until they say till the the black woman says I am a doctor, they're also mistreated. So we we've got uphill battle and as Malika said, it's it's the others that have the problem and this is systemic and built into our health care. Malaika Brown, Ph.D.: Slow. Mike Turner: I appreciate that. And I think one of the the reasons behind this conversation is I I feel so strongly that men and women, black men and women don't have a these conversations enough to where how do we support and be allies in your struggle of that? I don't wanna I don't wanna be the Stephen A. Smith like right now. Malaika Brown, Ph.D.: Huh. Ple please don't. Mike Turner: So Malaika Brown, Ph.D.: The i the opposite of that. Mike Turner: Yeah, so like this is why this conversation is important to me is yes, I could joke around a lot, but when it's all said and done, like I don't wanna be that guy. so looking at it at the big picture of things, do you look to men for allyship? Or do you feel like you gotta carry the burden on your own? Like this I gotta do this on my own, I can't ask for help. Like, not that you're trying to I don't think anybody could do anything alone. And we should be helping one another, like, kind of talk about that thought process. Malaika Brown, Ph.D.: I will say honestly, we we hold the accountability and the weight of what's happening in our bodies as it's a heavy burden, but we do want men to be allies. I've kind of feel like that's what we've been asking, but we've been getting the opposite of that. we see what's happening with the rolling back of us just being able to have a say-so over our own bodies and what we want to do and what we don't want to do, and how we're Rewinding back to the 1960s when it just comes Chakeyla Anderson: Okay. Malaika Brown, Ph.D.: to just basic understanding. so we do need men to be allies because the reality is our society is patriarchal. Men are sitting in the positions of power. So we do need them to be allies and understand in order for us to get to where we need to get to. We need you to understand our journey and we need you to speak up for us because the more men speak up intelligently about this issue and the more noise you all make along with the women. You're going to see things start to shift. The problem is we don't have enough men speaking up, or we have men with platforms, since you mentioned Stephen A. Smith, that don't use them right, or they think that they're being allies when they're being the opposite of that. And it, in my opinion, I think it's it's it could be catastrophic, life-altering for somebody. If you say the wrong thing or mention the wrong thing. And society listens to the weight of your voice and they shift a particular way, you don't know what you could could cause to happen in society or in a particular person's life. So I do think that we need more men to s to stand beside us and to speak loudly about these issues. It's just like black and white. We need white allies because a lot of times they're gonna get into doors and rooms and they're gonna get the attention of people that would not listen to us when we are speaking about our pain points. Mike Turner: Yep. Tim: Yeah. Mike Turner: yeah, that's that's definitely something I that weighs he heavily on me and I feel like I could sit here and say, like I said, I don't want to be the Stephen A, but do you think the results of this case affect how you operate or seen on a day-to-day basis in a professional realm, just like not even personal, in a professional realm, can can you be trusted? I can see the far, you know, side of men empowerment saying, I can now, if that's what you're gonna use as as an excuse, can you trust, Malaika Brown, Ph.D.: Mm. Mike Turner: can you trust, especially after you had a child, can I trust your emotional integrity to make the right decision? Malaika Brown, Ph.D.: I hear what you're saying. It could be used as a weapon against them. Mike Turner: Yes. Malaika Brown, Ph.D.: Okay. Now, I mean, that can go with anything, right? you have to believe, and this is just me. you have to believe that the overwhelming percentage of people are not trying to use your pain as a weapon or a tool against you. There will be situations where that happens, but the more educated men are, and the more, like you said, just you looking For a little bit, you found out that there were a lot of cases where this happens. Now, granted, all of these cases where mothers killed their children are not postpartum psychosis at all. Cause I could think of a couple where she did it and those kids were not that small. and it had nothing to do with what was going on with her psychologically. But I do think that overwhelmingly, most men are not going to be there to point the finger and say, number one. I don't know if I can trust you with my children because you could possibly have postpartum and look at this case, this could possibly be a situation. I also think, and I I'll say this, I think that the thing that's being missed with this case outside of the black, the white, and who who did what, because there's also these theories on she didn't do it, that the husband possibly did it in the Clancy case, right? Mike Turner: Mm-hmm. Malaika Brown, Ph.D.: I would say that this is a moment for us to have an honest conversation about postpartum depression and psychosis, like what that is, and the failure to the women. So you gave us two cases in Lindsay's and Latarsha's case, they both were not diagnosed properly. And so this reflects back on the mental health profession. They're either seeing people not being diagnosed, which was Lindsay's case, or their Latarsha. For whatever reasons, besides social economic status and other reasons, she did not get diagnosed Tim: Okay. Malaika Brown, Ph.D.: at all and she went untreated. We need to have a conversation about the system, because the system is a part of this equation just as much as the women that are dealing with the illness. Mike Turner: Eighteen kilo. Chakeyla Anderson: a couple things on the allyship and I'll I'll add a little little extra, but completely aligned with the need of having men be allies. I also think it's important for them to make sure where decisions are being made with regards to women and women's health, they make sure that there are women in the room. There should always be women in the room whenever there's a decision made around what impacts us mentally, physically, a hundred percent of the time. And so those the men in that room have an obligation to speak up and make sure that that's happening. And that's another way they can exhibit allyship. They don't need to know everything and they won't know everything. And they won't have to understand everything, but they at Tim: Yeah. Chakeyla Anderson: least need to make sure the people that do know and understand are are in that room. and so I think a and that's the one piece I just wanted to add on the on the on the allyship piece. Mike Turner: And so so that's a good point. And I and Tim, you could correct me if I'm wrong. I feel like there's a good majority of a a good portion of men that have to understand to to support. So that's where I think these conversations need to take place. They might not a hundred percent get a get it, but the conversation needs to take place so we can have some type of understanding to support properly. I don't know too many men that's gonna blindly support without truly understanding. Is that safe to say, Tim? Tim: Yeah, I think I think, you know, we we touched on it a little bit earlier. You know, I think there has to be an openness, right? And also an awareness. And and even to to go further, an acknowledgement that that this is something that's important that needs to be discussed. And when those three things you know, are true, I think that we can get to those places which Malika and Keila talked about. of having those that allyship or having women represented in the room and then also the smaller microcosm in in the household, right? Where men, you know, where this becomes not something that's happened and we're responding to it and reacting to it, where I think the goal is for this to be something that's normal. Right, maybe 10, 15 years down the road, that this is just a normal part of the and again, I I don't want to be politically incorrect, but just the the the female part of the the aging process, right? And that this is something normal. Hey, you know, and maybe this is something taught in health class. I I don't know, but something where this is no longer a surprise or something that can be handled. medically and can be diagnosed correctly as soon as signs exhibit. Mike Turner: Yeah, all right. Keyla do you feel any type of pressure or a certain way about about as a professional in your world, like, okay, this case is gonna cause some harm. I need to move differently to show that I'm not don't categorize me in this or or anything like that. Do you feel any type of way about that or is it just I out of sight, out of mind? Chakeyla Anderson: So I don't I don't it hasn't changed the way that I move, but I do know eventually it's going to come up in conversation. it might come up, you know, in a a pre meeting where everybody is just kinda chatting on chatting and talking about things that are g going on in society that's normal. It's a normal cadence and and depending on who's in that room how how well my thoughts are communicated, even in just a normal social setting, could in some way impact what message they take away from that and then utilize that to to influence decisions that could be made. So right now, both Mike and Tim, you know I'm up for a promotion. So that promotion means I'll be reporting to the CEO. It's all but done, right? But I haven't signed on that bottom line. Once once I'm in the room, the the conversation comes up, we talk about it. If I don't have if I don't effectively communicate it and it comes out only, Shaquila supports murdering children and says it's okay, you know, if you are mentally ill. are you sure you want her? to be making decisions at this level because that's just, you know. And then you've got folks that have very strong religious beliefs that could be in that room that it doesn't matter what type of scientific information you bring. It doesn't matter what type of medical information you bring. They are all the way down to the core when it comes to their religious beliefs. There there is there are no other other way. You know, there's no other way. There's nothing you can tell them that would sway them. To have any type of empathy with anyone that's in that situation. So what that won't do though, it won't sway me from standing on what my beliefs are. But what it might do is it may curb the way that I communicate about what my beliefs are in that space. So that would be the only deterrent or thing that I would think about if I'm in a position where this conversation comes up. I do not believe that the case itself has an impact on how and I I could be naive in this space, but I I don't know or I haven't seen where this case could impact how the male leaders Tim: Okay. Chakeyla Anderson: in our f in our company sees how women move, you know. it might impact those of us that are still in childbearing ages, right? That that might impact that relationship, but that's yet to be seen. Mike Turner: Yeah, there was a saw a post where this lady said that if Clancy is found to be emotionally unstable, women need to be very careful about celebrating that verdict because the law sets a precedent. Like and that's kinda where I'm coming from, is like if that is the precedent is that like you said you said a good point, it's not you per se right now, but those women that are childbearing age that are seven months pregnant, about to go on leave. Or do you see that there's a sector of the world that's gonna like have a side eye now? are they gonna keep on? Are they gonna give as you know, I think was it three months that you're allowed to take off Chakeyla Anderson: Yeah, in the US you can do up to twelve Mike Turner: Yeah. Chakeyla Anderson: weeks if you've got cesarean and then it's six weeks if it's a natural childbirth and outside Malaika Brown, Ph.D.: Uh-huh. Chakeyla Anderson: of the US you have a year. Mike Turner: Yeah. I think people Malaika Brown, Ph.D.: Yeah. Mike Turner: I I always look things as worst case scenario. That's just I don't know why my mind goes that way, but I can sit here and see there's a a sector of men that's gonna be looking at women coming back side eye, you know, because this is now the precedent. Malaika Brown, Ph.D.: Is it the precedent or is it highlighting that this is something that exists in our society that we've ignored? Because you're Mike Turner: That's good point. Malaika Brown, Ph.D.: you're you're taking the small percentage and making it the majority. So let's just say Mike Turner: Mm-hmm. Malaika Brown, Ph.D.: this is 10% of women have this issue to the point where it's criminal, because that's I think what we need to distinguish. A lot of women have postpartum depression and they are not, they don't commit crimes, right? These people are anomalies. So now you're judging an entire group or gender of people by the anomalies. And I don't think that that's fair because we could do the same thing with men. Statistically, most serial killers are male. So are we going to just say that all men have the likelihood to kill us? Like that potential is in every man. I don't think that that's fair. I think that we just, I don't think celebrating is the right word. I think what, and Tim: Yeah. Malaika Brown, Ph.D.: it's not about women or men celebrating a verdict. I think it's about the the legal system working the way it's supposed to work. Mike Turner: Mm-hmm. Malaika Brown, Ph.D.: And we have two examples of where it's working for one and it's not working for another. And the same judge is involved. So he heard this case before. He's heard a similar version of this case. I think that's the thing that I'm more concerned about. I think that Lindsey Clancy's case helped Latar Shaunders get a new trial. So that part I'm not celebrating per se, but I want her to be fairly judged for what she did. She can still have been sick. But still needs to be held accountable. You don't get to just go home if they find you not criminally responsible because of Tim: Okay. Malaika Brown, Ph.D.: mental disease or defect. She's gonna still have to get treatment. So she doesn't just get to go live her life. And I think that's the misconception. she's not found guilty and put in prison. But no, she's gonna have to go get care. And she's gonna have to be able to show definitively that she's better before she can be released into society. And that might never happen. We don't know. But Lindsay's case, the focus I saw was the fact that it opened up the door for a black woman to get a fair trial that she didn't get the first Tim: Hmm. Malaika Brown, Ph.D.: time around. Tim: Hmm. And and I wanted to Chakeyla Anderson: And I think Malika said mental disease or defect, right? So where you'll have groups that will try to label it as mental instability or being unsta that's completely different than a mental disease and a defect. A mental disease and and defect is something that's outside of the woman's control. And so she absolutely needs medical intervention. in order to normalize the situation. Whereas instability could be emotional, it could be hormonal, it could be controllable. And and so I think simplifying that will allow people to misuse this judgment in ways that you see them misusing it now. Tim: Yeah, yeah. And I and I agree because I have literally sat in a room with people who are interviewing for a job. And though we are not supposed to ask the candidate, are they planning to get pregnant? It is something that comes up, right? You know, when we when when when people are considering hiring a woman for a role. I mean, it just it's real. And then, you know, playing devil's advocate. This is adding adding another layer to that. And again, I'm not saying it's fair, but it is potentially and I think Mike, that's where you were kind of leading. It's adding another layer to that. unf unfortunately. And that's something Mike Turner: Yeah. Tim: that that's needs to be addressed. Yeah, yeah, I I'm not saying it's right. But yeah. Mike Turner: And I'm not saying it's right. I'm not saying it's right at all. I just like yeah, I'm not saying it's right. Malaika Brown, Ph.D.: Can I add? Mm-hmm. But can I add something to what Tim said? And only because I had this lived experience. When I was pregnant with my youngest daughter, I was I was interviewing for jobs. I was hiding my pregnancy because I knew even though legally in Tim: Yep. Malaika Brown, Ph.D.: California they could not use my pregnancy as a reason to not hire me, I couldn't take that chance. So I think what both of you guys are saying is this just adds another thing on the list of reasons that women can be, if for lack of a better term, discriminated against. Tim: Yeah, yeah. Malaika Brown, Ph.D.: Or or looked at sideways because this is just one more thing to add to the to the list. And pregnancy, unfortunately, is something that's held against us when it should be something that should be celebrated. Tim: Yeah. And and I don't think it's lack of a better word. I think it's just it's plain discrimination. So Chakeyla Anderson: Which is so strange because you have the push for more children, increasing the population, and the stigma against women who've decided not to bear children and then those who've decided that they may terminate for medical reasons or what whatever reason they have, you've got that, but the the lack of support for women who carry children is astonishing when you hear the other side around the need to bear children. yeah, it's it we just don't have that right sized here. Malaika Brown, Ph.D.: I mean, the point that you brought up, Keila, about the fact that outside of this country you get a year off for Chakeyla Anderson: Mm-hmm. Malaika Brown, Ph.D.: maternity leave, not just the mother, the father too. Chakeyla Anderson: The father too, yeah. Malaika Brown, Ph.D.: Because it's about bonding for the family. And we do not get it right here. Like a lot of our policies on how we govern recovery from major surgeries, giving birth, et cetera, is not in line with what the body actually needs to recover because capitalism forces us to have to get back into the rat race and get back on the wheel. They don't want you out of the system very long. Mike Turner: It's key to no paid year off. Yeah. Malaika Brown, Ph.D.: Yes, it is paid. Yes, it's paid. Chakeyla Anderson: Yeah, paid year off. It's paid. Yeah. And you get your job back. You when you come, Malaika Brown, Ph.D.: Yes. Chakeyla Anderson: you get your it's not a a similar job, you get the job that you left back. Both the mother Tim: Yeah. Chakeyla Anderson: and the father. Tim: Yeah, and I and I think it's important to note the fact that, you know, a lot of us, right? On every every one of us on this call know that. And a lot of our colleagues and professionals know that. a lot of people in leadership know that, and it has not been addressed. Everybody knows this. Everybody has looked, not everybody, but a lot of people are aware of how other countries handle this and how much better it is. But we still haven't addressed it, even though it seems like everybody who does know about it knows that it's it's it's positive. And so again, another topic for another discussion. But yeah, I think that's that's important to note too. Like we don't handle a lot of things you know, the right way. I I would say, I guess. Chakeyla Anderson: And it's a unnecessary question. Malaika Brown, Ph.D.: And you want us to have, yeah, I was gonna say, and you want us to have more babies. So now you Chakeyla Anderson: Yeah. Malaika Brown, Ph.D.: you undo the ability for us to choose whether or not we want to be a mother when we want to be one. Now you're trying to also roll back access to birth control. So now you're forcing us to be parents, knowing that the possibility is probably one in five that a woman after she gives birth is gonna deer deal with some type of postpartum issue, whether it's anxiety, whether it's a a depressive mood. Like one in five, but you forcing us into this and you're not giving us the support that we need. So I think that yeah, you guys are highlighting a great point. Chakeyla Anderson: and forcing you to get back to work. I mean you you don't have a choice. You know, I Malaika Brown, Ph.D.: Yeah. Chakeyla Anderson: we ran in I ran into a couple of concerns after I had the twins and because I had twins and I had a cesarean, I had that twelve week window. But you know, sometimes things don't happen on a twelve week schedule. You know, you you got two babies and you've you got you know childcare you're looking for and you may have complications. And that, you know, you you you feel like somebody is back there just tapping their watch, you know, lo waiting waiting for you to get back and and so you feel you have this immense sense of guilt and I gotta get back to work, I gotta I gotta punch this clock, I gotta get this work done, they're gonna overlook me for this position and but I wanna be a good mom and I miss my mom my my kids and I'm pumping at work, you know, and then you've got breast milk seeping through your bra while while you're at work and you know, it's just it's just not a it doesn't feel safe and it doesn't feel like a healthy environment that we're put in to to bear children in the US effectively. And then when you're a black woman on top of that, you've gotta deal with all the other things that come along with it and manage those expectations. You gotta be better at work, the best at work. You've gotta deal with the pain. and then you've gotta deal with the things that your household has to deal with and in essence you might be married, but you may be a single parent, you know, while you're married, you know, so all these things play into that and we're just forced to bend and grare bend grin and bear it and therefore we're not as mental mental illness or mental health is just something that is just not fully recognized in us. Mike Turner: Yeah, and on top of all that, now I gotta see your physical diploma too. Chakeyla Anderson: yeah. Mike Turner: Mulligan look like she wanna kill me. Chakeyla Anderson: Mm. Malaika Brown, Ph.D.: I'ma let you live, Mike. I'ma let you live. Chakeyla Anderson: Ha ha ha. Tim: Listen, I didn't I didn't I done sat in interviews where where people have l lied about what they what they accomplished, lied about degrees, lied about where they went, lied about sports they played. you know, you you start Chakeyla Anderson: you Tim: hiring folks, you come across a lot of different things. But yeah. Mike Turner: I what's the what's the guy that lied about being on the Forty Niners? Malaika Brown, Ph.D.: J Mond Love, the wide deceiver. Mike Turner: Whoa boy. Tim: Yeah. Yeah. Mike Turner: The white Chakeyla Anderson: What? Mike Turner: deceiver. I saw Malaika Brown, Ph.D.: Yeah. Mike Turner: that that one video of him running that route on the beach. Like Malaika Brown, Ph.D.: The videos were crazy. Yes. I said, who fell for this? He took that helmet everywhere. That should have been your first indication that he was not playing for the 49ers. Chakeyla Anderson: First of all, who do you know takes a helmet with them ever? my goodness. Mike Turner: Alright, so Tim: Mm. Mike Turner: here's the next question. Like who checks on who? Like that's one thing that, you know, we kinda it was kinda brought up earlier, like you you go through this phase of not having a safe space to talk to your partner or the the father about what's going on. so who is checking in on you as a mom? And then Tim, I want you to ask, has anybody checked in on you as a father or what you're going through and what you're dealing with? Malaika Brown, Ph.D.: I think the mom is the one that's kind of left out of the equation because the baby, well, dad too, but the baby has a schedule to be checked on. They have well baby checkups at milestone. So they're gonna be cared for and looked after, and they're looking to make sure that they're hitting, you know, their checkpoints and their milestones. The mother gets probably one appointment, and then after that, it's just kind of like no one's really checking in to see how she's doing. Everything's about the baby. And so I think that there needs to be someone that actually makes it their business if the father is not there to do it, part of her village that they are checking up on her just as much as the baby is getting checked up on. So like she takes the baby for shots. You ask how the baby did, and then you ask, How are you doing? Like use that as a a milestone to check in with her regularly, because the babies do go to the the doctors pretty regularly in that first year. Tim: well I will chime in here. If I recall correctly, we've had the same pediatrician for all our kids. we we love our our our pediatrician, our doctor. And I recall, I believe she did ask my wife how she was doing. I think that that was important to her, but I will also add she's a woman. Color. Malaika Brown, Ph.D.: That's why. Tim: So yeah, so I I would I would just wanted to add that. I think my wife and I were lucky in who we got because I think that she and you know we're going back, you know, my first child is 14 years ago, but I think that she was cutting edge or aware of things that could possibly happen, or maybe through her practice or experience. made her want to do those things. So I would say that I do recall her asking that of my wife. And then as far as me, don't nobody check on me. Nobody. No one. Not even Chakeyla Anderson: Mm hmm. Malaika Brown, Ph.D.: No, I agree. Tim: my friends. Malaika Brown, Ph.D.: I agree. Mike Turner: Hmm. There's some terrible friends. Tim: You know, so w yeah, yep. Especially the women friends who should know who should be who should be fair and check and yes and check on us Malaika Brown, Ph.D.: Ooh, shots fired. Tim: both. Yes, and check on us both. yeah. yeah. Chakeyla Anderson: All the way. All the way. Mike Turner: Trying to Tim: Be because because it's Malaika Brown, Ph.D.: Now I d now now listen, when I said my my when I said it, I said the baby gets checked on, but mom and dad, I did include that. They they get left out in the cold. Chakeyla Anderson: She did. She did. Tim: Okay. Yeah, yeah, in twenty twenty six you included that. Malaika Brown, Ph.D.: Listen, don't get me started. Bi biological wasn't Chakeyla Anderson: Thanks. Tim: But but no. Malaika Brown, Ph.D.: around for me to worry about checking on him. He wasn't my concern. Tim: So so here Mike Turner: Is there is there a so is actually bringing so a lot of what postpartum is is comes from the emotional hormon not emotional, hormonal imbalance that comes with carrying the kid, right? or child. Is that correct, Malika? Malaika Brown, Ph.D.: It's not the imbalance, it's the the levels fluctuating and doing all the different changes. And honestly, think about what mothers go through when they first get pregnant, morning sickness and things like that. Your body Mike Turner: Mm-hmm. Malaika Brown, Ph.D.: is fighting against something that it does not expect to be there. And then your body adapts and it has to adjust, the levels adjust so that you can sustain this baby for 40 weeks. And then now you get get the baby out, your body doesn't just immediately go back as soon as the baby is is pushed out. That's not the way your system works. It took you forty weeks to get here and it's gonna take you some time after the fact to get your body to go back to not even normal levels, because I don't think you'll ever return back to whatever you were before the pregnancy. You're never gonna go back to to ground zero. It's gonna be different. Chakeyla Anderson: And if you're breastfeeding too, you know, depending on how long you do that, you're you're gonna have a different level of hormones in your body Malaika Brown, Ph.D.: Yes. Chakeyla Anderson: for that particular act, right? So and some people breastfeed for a year, so some longer. And so then your body is adjusting to the what that norm is, and then when that Malaika Brown, Ph.D.: Uh-huh. Chakeyla Anderson: passes, then you've got another time period that your body needs to adjust again to whatever your new normal is gonna be. 'Cause when Malaika Brown, Ph.D.: Yeah. And God forbid you have babies close together. So you push Chakeyla Anderson: Yeah. Malaika Brown, Ph.D.: out multiple pregnancies. Your body doesn't have a chance to really recover. Chakeyla Anderson: When when when you're breastfeeding, your body actually reacts to your child being hungry. So if your baby cries, you start to produce milk. So that's how in tune your body is with with the hormones and your baby. So I mean that that's just that's just like this connection. You've got the symbiotic connection when they're in your wound and you still have this connection afterwards. Mike Turner: Mm. Is and this is not a comparison question, so don't shoot me, but Dr. Brown, is there some type of thing that you've Malaika Brown, Ph.D.: 'Cause you bot 'cause I know when you start going Doctor Brown, go ahead. Tim: Yeah, that's what I that's what I was saying. Like he he didn't say Malaika he said Dr. Brown. He didn't change the whole scope. Malaika Brown, Ph.D.: Been Malaika this whole time. What we doin'? Mike Turner: Is there some type it's not hormonal for men, but is there have you seen any incident that men go through something in in the raising of Malaika Brown, Ph.D.: Yeah. There's evidence. Mike Turner: a kid? Malaika Brown, Ph.D.: Well, there's evidence when the w mother is pregnant that they can have what we call the phantom pregnancy symptoms. So they go through similar Mike Turner: Uh-huh. Malaika Brown, Ph.D.: symptoms as the mother would go through. They get morning sickness and different things like that. It's called Couvade syndrome. There's also research to show that men could also go through postpartum symptoms as well if their partner, the mother also has that. So You're you can see a connection that is even happening, although it's not the same as mother and child with the umbilical cord, but the father and the mother do have a connection. So they're they're going through a similar experience, even though the father is not carrying the child. So that's why I don't just discount the dad. But part of that equation too, I think is the presence of the dad, being around, being involved, being connected to the process. I think that probably will increase the likelihood of them having those sympathy symptoms as well. Tim: I that's what I had. Chakeyla Anderson: Wait, Mike, I gotta ask Dr. Brown something real quick. So you said it was called Cobad system Malaika Brown, Ph.D.: Cov Couvade Couvade syndrome. That's the the phantom pregnancy symptoms. Chakeyla Anderson: Couvade syndrome. Okay, so Malaika Brown, Ph.D.: Mm-hmm. Chakeyla Anderson: when when my ex husband, so when I gave birth to my second child and I had and so it was the the the the day that she came early, so I had pains, you know, pregnancy pains. I didn't have with the twins. So when I had the pains and he was hollering too, did he have that as well? Tim: Yeah. Chakeyla Anderson: Every time I scream, he screamed. Or was Malaika Brown, Ph.D.: Wow. It's a possi it no. No, I think that might have been something else. Chakeyla Anderson: is that something else? Malaika Brown, Ph.D.: I almost dropped an n-word bomb. Let me let me keep that to myself. That ain't what was going on with that man. Nah, nah. Because crazy Chakeyla Anderson: That was that wasn't it? Okay. All right. Malaika Brown, Ph.D.: enough, when I reconciled with my first husband and got pregnant with my youngest one, he had morning sickness. Like he kept saying, I feel weird. I feel like a girl. I didn't realize I was pregnant at the time. So he was having Chakeyla Anderson: Hello? Malaika Brown, Ph.D.: couvade syndrome before I actually figured out that I was pregnant. So he he was around for a little bit. And then he he split the same. Tim: Mm-hmm. Mike Turner: boy. All Malaika Brown, Ph.D.: Mm. Tim: Hmm. Mike Turner: right, so we don't i no Chakeyla Anderson: Another podcast, another day. I Malaika Brown, Ph.D.: Absolutely. Chakeyla Anderson: wanna be on that one too, okay? Malaika Brown, Ph.D.: It it need it need to be a book. It need to be a book. Mike Turner: Look, I you s I I didn't respond to that one. Next next subject, Malaika Brown, Ph.D.: We both need to write a book, Keila. No, because you Chakeyla Anderson: Yeah. Malaika Brown, Ph.D.: y'all present dads. We we're not shot shooting at y'all. Y'all good. Tim: Yeah. Mike Turner: Yeah. Alright, so here so in in helping, like I said, I'm a I'm a I'm categorizing men in this 'cause like we sometimes we just don't understand, don't see, we think we know everything. We're always trying to help, right? So things that men should stop saying. I know Tim has Malaika Brown, Ph.D.: Ha Mike Turner: probably said a lot of this. So I'm gonna read out some statements. You say safe, safe, proceed with caution or shut up. Or you could use a different word if you want. so Malaika Brown, Ph.D.: Okay. Mike Turner: just tell me what you need me to do. Malaika Brown, Ph.D.: Proceed with caution. Chakeyla Anderson: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Tim: What what'd you say, Keeler? Chakeyla Anderson: Don't talk about my weight. don't do that. Malaika Brown, Ph.D.: That could go that that could go mm. Mike Turner: Tim Tim, you're shaking your head like you said that once. Just tell me what you need me to do. Tim: What's that? I've probably I've said it, but you know, it be it would be a situation where I'm trying to help. I don't know if that makes any difference, but it would be like, Man, I don't I don't know what to do here. You gotta give me something, you gotta give me some direction. You know, and that's where that in and again, I don't know if that's what y'all are referring to. But in some cases we have no clue and I will be the first to admit, be like I'm like, listen, you gotta give me something 'cause I don't know what what I'm doing. Mike Turner: Yeah. Yeah. Malaika Brown, Ph.D.: I will admit it's good intention. The reason why I said proceed with caution is good intention, probably bad delivery. You're asking Mike Turner: Mm-hmm. Malaika Brown, Ph.D.: a person that's overwhelmed or depleted to give you a to-do list and a checklist. They may not have the capacity to do that in that moment. Tim: Mm-hmm. Malaika Brown, Ph.D.: maybe offer something that you can see that you think would possibly relieve some of what they're carrying. That would probably be a better way but I think Tim: Yep. Malaika Brown, Ph.D.: that that would be a better way. Offer something that you think would be helpful as opposed to asking them to give you a list, because the it the intention is absolutely good. We know that you mean well, but the way it's delivered could add more frustration than it would actually relief. Chakeyla Anderson: Yeah, at some at some point we don't want to make any more decisions, right? We we are at our capacity. And so although whatever decision you make may not be perfect, at least you're making the decision and you're giving us some space to not have to be that person. Tim: I think. Mike Turner: Hm. Okay. What about when a guy says, just sleep when the baby sleeps? Malaika Brown, Ph.D.: Hmm. Tim: Ooh ooh ooh I know that one. Chakeyla Anderson: I I'm not sure. yeah I I don't think that's gonna be a good Malaika Brown, Ph.D.: Nah, nah. Chakeyla Anderson: Yeah, that that's that's not gonna be a good outcome. Yeah. Mm hmm. Malaika Brown, Ph.D.: No. Another proceed another proceed with caution for sure. Cause Mike Turner: Alright. What about Malaika Brown, Ph.D.: that could go bad. Mike Turner: What about my mom had three kids and she was fine? Malaika Brown, Ph.D.: shut the hell up. Chakeyla Anderson: Yeah. You know what? We'll call your mama then. Tim: Ha ha ha. And see, here's the thing, you know, and again with that, and I've been caught and I've said something similar in in in different, whole different scenari scenario. But it's just like I've learned that I wasn't there. You know what I'm saying? So I don't know what my dad had to go through. So you've got to you can't use that because we were all too young to say, well, they was cool. From our perspective, what we saw. But you wasn't in their relationship, so you can't even really use that anymore. You know, I I've learned that. Mike Turner: what about when the the father says, I gotta work in the morning? Tim: Mm. Malaika Brown, Ph.D.: He Chakeyla Anderson: What do you think this is? Malaika Brown, Ph.D.: he must he Chakeyla Anderson: Yeah. Malaika Brown, Ph.D.: he he must wanna wake up. Does he wanna wake up in the morning? Like open his eyes? Chakeyla Anderson: What? Mike Turner: Mm-hmm. Chakeyla Anderson: Yeah, I think sometimes they discount the r you know, the the effort that it takes to raise children. It's like, Well, you're at home. Yeah, but you know, I'm my baby's on a schedule. Yeah, I might even I might not even have time to take a shower when I wanna take a shower. You know, because not only do I have I'm taking care of a baby, I also gotta make sure I'm preparing the meals 'cause we did our organic food for the kids, so I had to make the food, you know. And then, you know, if you're breastfeeding, you gotta make sure that you're pumping enough. So I mean it's not it's not some cakewalk like where like the baby is sleeping all day and you're sitting sitting on the couch watching T V. It's you know, it's real it's real work. It's bonding of course. but it's it's not some simplistic thing that you you're you get to do that you're just sitting at home, you know. I in my opinion, going to work is probably easier, than being at home. Malaika Brown, Ph.D.: That's the escape. Mike Turner: Yeah. Chakeyla Anderson: Yes, it is. Tim: So so Mike, I actu Malaika Brown, Ph.D.: Send me where the adults are. Chakeyla Anderson: Ha ha ha. Tim: so so so Mike, I'ma I'ma steal your platform for one second, ask a question that I want them to answer because you know, there was a lot of times where I was home for a couple of days with with my child or children, and I wanna know if this is barking at the wrong tree or not. this is easy. Malaika Brown, Ph.D.: Chao. Tim: Yeah. Chakeyla Anderson: Mm-hmm. Tim: When I'm taking care of my kids in and the laundry's gone or whatever, I'm like, yo, Malaika Brown, Ph.D.: You did it temporarily. Tim: this is easy. Chakeyla Anderson: Yeah. And we probably prepare. She probably had the food prepared, the milk prepared. Malaika Brown, Ph.D.: We prepped it, yes. Chakeyla Anderson: The there's no way. I know Philandra. She had stuff planned out. She plans everything. Mike Turner: G get her. Gitter. Tim: No, no. Where she at? I I'll get her. No, no, no. The only thing the only thing the Malaika Brown, Ph.D.: He bringing in the witnesses. Mike Turner: Yeah. Tim: I would say this. For me, the the only thing that Philandra did a lot of times was if she was breastfeeding, she pumped the milk and it was frozen and I knew everything. Outside of that, no. I had everything. Huh? Yeah, yeah, that that's Malaika Brown, Ph.D.: That's preparation. That's preparation. That's preparation. Tim: it. Yeah, that that's it. But you know, I I Chakeyla Anderson: Well, she probably made sure the diapers were stocked, the wipes were in place, the baby clothes were washed, so maybe you knew how to go get them, but the things were probably ready Tim: Cl no no, clothes, Chakeyla Anderson: for you. Tim: clothes, clothes, she she put I'm colorblind, so she did have to put the clothes out. Not the clothes out, she had the little rack. But what I'm Chakeyla Anderson: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Tim: telling you is like when she left, she was gone. And I was responsible a hundred percent for appointments, school, drop offs. I had my own car seat, I had my own diaper bag, Chakeyla Anderson: Mm-hmm. Tim: all the things. All the things. Malaika Brown, Ph.D.: But I Mike Turner: So she dressing you and the babies. Malaika Brown, Ph.D.: also think y you so out of line for that. Chakeyla Anderson: Better. Malaika Brown, Ph.D.: Let me bring this back because you you you do it too much. W what I will Chakeyla Anderson: Please, Malika, please. Malaika Brown, Ph.D.: say is what you don't see, the invisible labor that often happens with mothers of newborns and children, is that they have created a system and an ecosystem that they may not say to you, I'm setting this aside, this is how you do it, but they've already created that environment. So it's kind of built in. The fact that the clothes are organize a particular place, that the diapers are here, that the wipes are here, that the milk is pumped, this is where you get it. That's part of preparation. Like that's a part of the system Tim: Yeah. Malaika Brown, Ph.D.: she's created. And so s sometimes it's so seamless you don't even realize that she did she did prep prepare for you to be able to wash the baby. She did. Mike Turner: All right, Malaika Brown, Ph.D.: He's Mike Turner: It's all right, next one. Malaika Brown, Ph.D.: I'm gonna give that woman her credit. Chakeyla Anderson: No matter how much evidence, no much ha no matter how much evidence. Malaika Brown, Ph.D.: I'm gonna give her that credit. Mike Turner: I know, we need to we need her to come in and tell us the real truth. Look, she she was right here in another room. Was. Tim: I I deep I think she's I think she's sleeping. Yeah. Malaika Brown, Ph.D.: Right. Chakeyla Anderson: Yeah, Malaika Brown, Ph.D.: Mm-hmm. Chakeyla Anderson: she is like the ultimate preparer. I mean, she thinks of things months ahead. And so I can imagine that everything was stored in certain places. She had there's there's an order that she simply has. And it does make it easier for folks to come in because I've came I've come to their home and I've you know, babysat the children before and I she didn't really have to tell me too much because she has a system in place. So when I'm imagining Malaika Brown, Ph.D.: There you go. Chakeyla Anderson: her being the mother that she is, she's never gonna leave those babies up to chance with Tim. It's just not happening. Malaika Brown, Ph.D.: Well anybody. Tim: I was a I was the one that took them on their first flights away for Chakeyla Anderson: Ha ha Tim: like four or five days. Philandra was nowhere in sight. Yes. Mike Turner: Yeah. Malaika Brown, Ph.D.: She was not in sights, but she was present because I'm pretty sure her handprint was on a whole lot of stuff. Mike Turner: Tim may go and admit to He ain't gonna admit to Tim: Mm. Malaika Brown, Ph.D.: Mm-hmm. Tim: They they they they ain't gonna give me nothing. They ain't gonna give me nothing. Mike Turner: Alright, next Malaika Brown, Ph.D.: It's not Mike Turner: one. Malaika Brown, Ph.D.: that we're not gonna give you nothing. We just don't want you to discount what she's done. Chakeyla Anderson: Yeah. Tim: Listen, she had Malaika Brown, Ph.D.: We give her your props. Mike Turner: So why we can't Tim: she had it look. Mike Turner: discount what Timmy's done? You do you discounting what Timmy's done? Malaika Brown, Ph.D.: I'm not, but he discounted her first. Chakeyla Anderson: We don't. Yeah. We just want to make sure he understood what what the invisible Tim: J I gotta understand. Chakeyla Anderson: support was. Tim: Yeah. Mike Turner: I what about the guy saying, Why are you crying? Malaika Brown, Ph.D.: Shut up. Just just stop talking to me. Cause if I Chakeyla Anderson: Mm. Malaika Brown, Ph.D.: if I knew, I don't know. Chakeyla Anderson: Yeah. Malaika Brown, Ph.D.: My hormones are out of whack. I'm just I'm emotional right now. Chakeyla Anderson: cried at commercials. I remember that Sarah McLaughlin commercial with the dogs and the pet. I I I mean, I boohooed like I lost my best friend. And I c and I'm trying to I'm asking myself, what is girl, what is wrong with you? So him asking why are you crying is just gonna irritate me even more, you know? And then probably I start crying even more. And I'm someone who doesn't I don't cry often. So it really became confusing because I just didn't understand what was really going on. And you can't explain it, you know? You just chalk it up to Yeah. Malaika Brown, Ph.D.: You you just don't know. Mike Turner: Yeah. Last one, and this is I'm gonna say this clearly 'cause of the words are are crucial. I'll babysit so you could go out. Malaika Brown, Ph.D.: You don't babysit children that belong to you. They're yours. Chakeyla Anderson: They're your kids. Malaika Brown, Ph.D.: What are we talking about? Chakeyla Anderson: Yeah. yeah, that would that Mike Turner: Tim Chakeyla Anderson: would I would be hot. Malaika Brown, Ph.D.: That would piss me off. Chakeyla Anderson: Yeah, I would be hot under the collar. Cause then that tells you how they view this whole thing. This whole time. You are a bystander and Malaika Brown, Ph.D.: Yeah. Chakeyla Anderson: anytime you step in to do something, you're doing it as a favor or as a babysitter and not as a father. I wish I wish he would have. Malaika Brown, Ph.D.: Yeah. Chakeyla Anderson: That's the wrong terminology Mike Turner: Yeah. Chakeyla Anderson: to use. Malaika Brown, Ph.D.: Mm. Tim: So on the on the other end of the spectrum, not necessarily the wife, but I'll never forget, and this pissed me off, because, you know, at certain points, you know, Keila and Mike, right? Philandra travels for work. Sometimes she might leave the country. You know, and I got the kids for two weeks or something. And I'll never forget, I think I don't know if it was just Bryce or it was Bryce and Kai. And we were at Philandra's aunt's house. And she was leaving and then she said, what well what you gonna do with the kids? I'm standing right there too. What you gonna do with this the kids? She said, well, Tim's gonna be with them. She said, You gonna leave them kids with him? Boy, I was hot. I was hot. Malaika Brown, Ph.D.: He's he's the father. Tim: I was hot. I was hot. I was hot. Malaika Brown, Ph.D.: Got a whole daddy, yeah. Tim: I was hot. Cause it it is basically Mike Turner: Does Tim: saying, like, what you don't think I don't know what to do with my my kids? Now again, I'm not Hey, other fathers might be one way or whatever, but no. I I was I was mad about that. I will never forget that. Chakeyla Anderson: Yeah, that could be generational too, depending on how old your your aunt Malaika Brown, Ph.D.: It is. Yeah. Chakeyla Anderson: is. I mean, yeah. Tim: She was like sixty something, like sixty. Malaika Brown, Ph.D.: Yeah, it's very generational. Chakeyla Anderson: At the time, yeah, that's possible. Yeah. Tim: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Mike Turner: That that also Malaika Brown, Ph.D.: Now, I Mike Turner: lets let you know. Malaika Brown, Ph.D.: I will say this. My sister has gone out of town. So she she has a two-year-old and she's gone into town when she was in the midst of still breastfeeding. So you know when you're breastfeeding, the attachment looks a lot different. And we made sure that we tried to provide support to my brother-in-law because we knew he was gonna go through it. Just not because he wasn't capable, but we just know that attachment was gonna look different. And she was not present. She left breast milk. The baby was like, Yeah, I'm not drinking that. She said. Bring my mama back. That's the way I want you to give it to me. So he figured Tim: Mm-hmm. Malaika Brown, Ph.D.: out a way to get through it and we try to support him, but not to say he couldn't do it, but we knew that he was gonna go through it just with a breastfeeding child and a mother not being around. Mike Turner: Mm. Yeah. I had a that lets you know how much I trust Tim, even though your auntie didn't. Like I was like, Malaika Brown, Ph.D.: 'Cause you left your baby with her. Mike Turner: Yeah, exactly. Tim: Man. Mike Turner: You know. I was like, Tim, need your help, though. But all right, we're gonna end off with this last question. All right, and this and it's so we can understand and we talked about this a little bit, number one, creating a safe space, right? So like how can what or what does support look like? and for men, like you letting men know what does support look like, yes. Create you said creating a safe space earlier. Is there anything that else that they can do to to show that they're there and ready to support however they can? Malaika Brown, Ph.D.: I think Keila said this that when you have a good partner, they can sometimes spot things wrong with you or things that are off with you before you've notice it in yourself. And so I think that what would be a good support in a creating a safe space is that they pay attention to the signs and the signals. If you see persistent irritability and rage that's not within the normal level, if you see them withdrawing, if you see inability to sleep or sleeping too much, not interested in things that they used to be interested in, not necessarily just those simplistically means there's something wrong, but you might want to go check and see if something is going on. So be observant. You observing them and paying attention to the changes that are happening with them could possibly save them from it progressing into something more severe. So just be be present and be aware. Chakeyla Anderson: Ditto, all of that. also, you know, if you know, if there's a point where there's some type of escalation, right? If there's you know, some anxiety or energy that's off, don't enter that same space with that same level of energy. be that voice of reason, use de escalation tactics, understand That there may not be a reasonable exp explanation for whatever is causing that energy to rise. And come come in that space with a level head and give that person space to kind of work through it. You know, don't leave them, you know, when they're when they're at that level. don't take personal offense to it. Figure out how you can help them through it. and as Malika stated earlier. You know, do some research. You know, there might be some things you find out on our behalf that we don't quite know. Yes, we're women, but we don't you know, women's health isn't as widely known as you would expect. There's a lot of things. W the women's health has been the least studied of health out there. So there's so many things we don't know about postpartum, about menopause, because those things are faux pas. So there's there's so many things that go on with our body that we might not truly understand. And so if you're that partner, seek to understand and kind of help us go through that. And and maybe, you know, you can reach out to a medical professional or, you know, someone that can help help them figure out how to navigate whatever situation we're in. Tim: Yeah. Mike Turner: Mm. I like it. I like it. anything else to add to did we miss anything in this conversation? Any important key key notes or s or things that we missed? Malaika Brown, Ph.D.: would say just know when a professional needs to enter the equation, like really pay attention to Chakeyla Anderson: Equation. Quite really quick. Malaika Brown, Ph.D.: when it's not just mild versions of some of the symptoms that I named, but things are prog are happening for long periods and stretches of time. Then you need to get a professional into the conversation so that they can assist them. Because the one thing we do know is that there are treatment plans, a variety of treatment plans that are very effective when it comes to postpartum depression and getting proper care. can make the difference between having a Lindsey Clancy case or it just simply being you recover. Chakeyla Anderson: And be your own advocate in those spaces, as we saw in in Lindsay's case, she tried. You know, she went multiple places. and Malaika Brown, Ph.D.: She did. Yeah. Chakeyla Anderson: so, you know, as the partner, don't just accept that what is happening is normal. You you may have to do extra work to make sure that your partner, their voice is being heard and they're getting the right medical care. And just like a a a regular doctor, sometimes you just gotta keep going and If that issue is persisting, you don't just need to accept the fact that it's just normal. Keep keep seeking the right help. Tim: And I I Mike Turner: I love it. Tim: would add that, you know, for the for the guys out there, like I do regular check ins with Philandra, whether it's daily or, you know, when I know she when I feel like even if she's not taking care of her body, right? my wife's a marathoner and for some reason I gotta schedule all the the massages 'cause I'm like, you you need to do this or you need to stretch. and so, you know, and there's times where I'd be like, Hey You okay? And it goes back to I think what Keila and Malik were saying, you you do have to sometimes be in tune. Like, yo, I I don't you seem a little off. Are you okay? And so I I I say, you know, be aware, be in tune and have some type of process where you can check in, you know, and have that real conversation if it's necessary. Mike Turner: Yeah. Yeah, I like it. I I would I would end off by saying be present. You know, be as present as you are on a job, be that present and more at home. And you'll you'll recognize and see a lot more than than typical. And that's the start. So with that said, all hearts and minds Tim: present on my job, but okay. Mike Turner: clear. Malaika Brown, Ph.D.: Okay. Mike Turner: I appreciate y'all having this conversation. I love these type of conversations. I always learn from them. and we're gonna have some more down the road. So I appreciate y'all. Thank you for coming. Until next time. Chakeyla Anderson: Thank you. Nice to meet you, Malika. Take care. Malaika Brown, Ph.D.: Thank you. Tim: Thank you. Yeah. Malaika Brown, Ph.D.: Nice to meet you too.