Latest / The Starting Block / US midterms & crypto /w Anthony Scaramucci

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US midterms & crypto /w Anthony Scaramucci · The Starting Block

0:07
Welcome back to The Starting Block.
0:08
It is a Tuesday and we've got a very
0:10
big show lined up today.
0:12
We're going to be joined by Anthony
0:13
Scaramucci in a few minutes time
0:15
to talk about the U.S.
0:16
Midterms and have a much broader,
0:17
wide ranging conversation about the
0:20
changing landscape for crypto,
0:21
both in the U S and globally.
0:23
And perhaps some of his thoughts on
0:25
the booming AI sector.
0:27
If you're joining us for the first
0:28
time, my name is Gareth Jenkinson.
0:29
I'm the head of multimedia here at
0:31
The Block, the host of The Starting
0:32
Block, which is of course our daily
0:34
show. If you've never joined us for
0:35
this show. We have a very simple
0:37
flow of the show.
0:39
We start off with the Block
0:40
Briefing, which is a rundown of
0:42
the top stories you need to know
0:44
from the last 24 hours curated from
0:46
the Block's exceptional
0:48
editorial team.
0:50
It's a great pleasure to read
0:51
through their top stories every
0:53
day. And then after that, we usually
0:54
move into a market poll segment if
0:56
we've got a market analyst on hand
0:58
to unpack what's happening in the
0:59
markets and then we move into the
1:00
hot seat and that's where we'll be
1:02
chatting to Scaramucci a little bit
1:04
later on in the show If
1:06
you've missed any of the content
1:07
that we've been putting out in the
1:08
last few weeks, we've being very
1:10
busy. We've been to New York twice
1:12
in the past six weeks.
1:12
We've being across to Singapore for
1:14
Token 2049.
1:16
Last week, we were in Lugano and
1:17
Switzerland for Plan B Forum
1:19
and Bitfinex Securities,
1:22
Future of Capital Market Summit as
1:24
well. So plenty of content to catch
1:25
up on. If you wanna go check some of
1:27
that out, you can go to our YouTube
1:28
channel. While you're there,
1:29
subscribe.
1:30
And if you're joining us on X this
1:32
afternoon or morning, wherever you
1:33
are. Please give this broadcast
1:35
a like and a retweet so more people
1:37
can join us on the live show this
1:38
morning without further ado Let's
1:40
jump into our top stories today
1:42
The first one ripple just landed a
1:43
big one CEO Brad Garlinghouse
1:45
says the company has received final
1:47
approval from the OCC to launch
1:49
a national trust bank putting
1:51
ripples dollar stablecoin
1:53
RLUSD and a federal oversight for
1:55
the first time the new ripple
1:57
national trust Bank will manage the
1:59
segregated reserves backing RL
2:01
USD and offer digital asset
2:02
custody to enterprises, though
2:04
issuance stays with its New York
2:06
regulated arm.
2:08
RLUSD has grown to a $2.5
2:10
billion market cap since
2:12
launching in late 2024.
2:15
It's the latest in a wave of OCC
2:17
green lights, one that's already
2:18
drawn fire from Senator Elizabeth
2:21
Warren, no surprises there.
2:23
Our next story, the world's biggest
2:24
asset managers going deeper into
2:26
tokenization in Japan.
2:28
BlackRock has signed a memorandum
2:30
of understanding with SBI Holdings
2:32
and Startail to explore linked
2:34
tokenized money market funds with
2:36
SBIs Yen Pegged Stablecoin
2:38
JPYSC.
2:40
The trio will study the technology
2:42
distribution and regulation needed
2:44
to connect the two and they're
2:45
keeping the door open to other
2:46
institutions at home and abroad.
2:49
BlackRock's tokenized fund Biddle
2:50
already manages around $2.2
2:53
billion.
2:55
And SBI's chairman put it bluntly,
2:56
if Japan wants to lead on-chain
2:58
finance rather than fall
3:00
behind, it has to build up those
3:02
foundations now.
3:04
Then strategy hit pause, the
3:06
largest corporate Bitcoin holder
3:07
bought no Bitcoin last week,
3:09
ending a five-week buying streak and
3:11
instead spent around $205
3:15
million repurchasing its
3:17
own STRC preferred shares.
3:19
Its stash holds already...
3:22
848,517 Bitcoin, more
3:24
than 4% of the total supply
3:26
worth roughly $68 billion.
3:29
And that pause comes as MSCI
3:31
weighs new rules that could put
3:33
strategy out of its indexes,
3:35
which would make raising fresh cash
3:37
to buy more Bitcoin a lot
3:39
harder.
3:40
Shares fell nearly 7% last week as
3:41
Bitcoin briefly dipped below
3:43
$80,000.
3:45
Meanwhile, one of its big
3:47
competitors, Strive, is climbing the
3:48
Bitcoin treasury leaderboard fast.
3:50
The company scooped up another $511
3:53
million in Bitcoin, adding roughly
3:55
6,200 coins to
3:58
reach 43,000 Bitcoin
4:00
in total. They're now sitting fourth
4:01
among public holders and closing
4:03
in on MetaPlanet and 21.
4:05
CEO Matt Cole wants to finish the
4:07
year as the second largest corporate
4:09
holder and needs about 105
4:11
coins a week to get there.
4:13
To fuel it, Strive has set up an
4:15
at-the-market program to sell up to
4:16
a billion dollars.
4:17
Of its SATs preferred
4:19
stock. And if you missed it, we did
4:21
sit down with Matt Cole last week in
4:23
Lugana. It was a really great
4:24
conversation alongside Rafa Zagiri
4:26
from 21.
4:28
I will be posting that full
4:29
interview a little bit later on
4:31
today, but if you wanna see some of
4:32
the highlights of that conversation,
4:33
you can find that both on our
4:34
YouTube channel and our X
4:36
account.
4:37
Onto our second last story today,
4:39
Galaxy Research has a message for
4:40
nervous investors.
4:41
The Bitcoin bear market is over.
4:43
In a new report, head of research
4:45
Alex Thorne argues The bottom was
4:47
back in June.
4:48
Pointing to fading selling from
4:49
long-term holders and five straight
4:51
weekly closes above a key moving
4:53
average.
4:54
All the wallets are moving far less
4:55
Bitcoin than in prior years with
4:57
ETFs and treasury companies
4:59
soaking up supply, ad mounting
5:01
US debt as a debasement hedge
5:03
and Galaxy's conclusions.
5:04
Pretty simple, now is a good
5:06
time to buy and hold Bitcoin.
5:09
There is a caveat though, a weekly
5:10
close below 76,000
5:13
would challenge that call.
5:15
I read through that full report this
5:16
morning, really great write-up from
5:19
Alex Thorn. You can find that on my
5:20
ex account at Gaza underscore Jenks
5:22
with a little breakdown of that
5:23
full report from Galaxy.
5:25
Our final story. The NBA is getting
5:27
into the prediction markets game,
5:29
but carefully, the league has signed
5:30
a memorandum of understanding with
5:32
the CFTC to protect game integrity
5:35
amid worries around
5:37
insider trading and manipulation and
5:39
named Kalshi and Polymarket its
5:40
preferred prediction market
5:42
exchanges.
5:43
That makes basketball the third
5:44
league to strike a deal with the
5:46
CFTC after hockey and baseball.
5:48
The notable holdout here is the NFL,
5:51
which wants tougher rules and argues
5:53
these contracts are gambling, that
5:54
states should police the fight could
5:56
land at the Supreme Court after New
5:58
Jersey asked the justices
6:00
to weigh in. So it's gonna be
6:02
interesting to see how that plays
6:03
out. Will the NFL enter the
6:05
race to get?
6:07
Business from prediction markets.
6:09
If you ask me for my opinion, I
6:10
would say probably yes.
6:11
The money is too good to say no to,
6:13
but it depends how ethical
6:15
they are.
6:17
And I'm probably gonna tip
6:19
Anthony Scaramucci to
6:20
kick things off there with his
6:22
thoughts on prediction markets as
6:23
well. But first things first,
6:25
let's get through the
6:27
proper introduction here.
6:28
Anthony, welcome to the show.
6:29
You're on the hot seat. It's great
6:30
to have you with us.
6:32
I think we've met a few years
6:34
ago in Davos and a lot has changed
6:36
since then.
6:36
First things first, I understand
6:38
you're in Winnipeg. It's cold.
6:39
How are you doing this morning, sir?
6:41
Yeah, I just...
6:42
Just ordering my coffee actually
6:44
in my room service.
6:45
Thank you, sir. I, I, yeah, I'm
6:47
freezing up here and,
6:49
uh, but it's a beautiful place.
6:50
We're really great culture up here.
6:51
And they got a great hockey team,
6:53
but you know, listen, the prediction
6:55
markets, is that where you want to
6:57
go first? Where would you like to
6:58
go? Sure.
6:58
Yeah, sure. Let's do it.
6:59
I mean, we finished off the block
7:00
briefing with that news.
7:02
Obviously, the NBA is saying they
7:04
want to get in on the deal or get in
7:06
these big deals.
7:08
The NFL kind of holding it at arm's
7:09
length.
7:10
What do you think of prediction
7:12
markets in general?
7:12
Because the NFL kind of saying that
7:14
they see this as gambling, it needs
7:15
to be regulated as so.
7:18
Well, I, I see it as
7:19
inevitable, so it's one of these
7:21
things where the NFL, you
7:23
know, I'm old enough to remember in
7:24
the NFL said no way we'll ever have
7:26
a franchise in Vegas.
7:28
I'm not old enough.
7:29
Remember when the NBA said, Hey,
7:30
no way. We'll have a franchising
7:32
Vegas.
7:33
They kick Pete Rose at a baseball
7:35
for gambling.
7:37
And it is inevitable.
7:39
And, you, know, we're about to build
7:40
a casino in New York
7:42
City right by city field.
7:44
And I just think this thing has
7:46
proliferated in a way where
7:48
there's no turning
7:51
back.
7:52
So the prediction markets, maybe
7:54
it'll get slowed down by the NFL or
7:56
maybe there's some people that are
7:57
bringing pause to it.
7:59
But I think it's going to happen.
8:00
I just would suggest to everybody
8:01
listening, you've got to be
8:03
super careful because unless
8:05
you're, you know, you got
8:06
information that other people don't
8:08
have and that could likely be
8:10
illegal.
8:11
You got to just be super careful
8:12
because a lot of people lose money
8:14
in these prediction markets.
8:15
Now they're phenomenal for
8:17
you and me to gage what's going to
8:19
happen. You know, if you're looking
8:20
at the midterm elections, you
8:22
can look at the polls, but then you
8:24
can at the prediction markets,
8:26
my guess is the prediction markets
8:27
are going to be way better.
8:28
Look at the 2024
8:30
election with Donald Trump.
8:32
They had him at 65, 70%.
8:35
The polls looked way tighter than
8:36
that way up until the end, but of
8:38
course the prediction market were
8:39
right. So.
8:40
So I think these are
8:42
things about life
8:44
that we maybe
8:46
moralize about, or maybe some of
8:48
us don't like, but they're
8:49
inevitable things about
8:51
live, you know?
8:53
Yeah, for sure.
8:53
I mean, just from my perspective.
8:55
Just from my perspective.
8:55
They're coming and I've embraced
8:56
them and I just would
8:58
tell people, please be cautious.
8:59
It's the same thing with crypto.
9:01
You gotta be cautious, you guys
9:03
know.
9:04
There's some great assets in the
9:05
crypto space.
9:06
You just mentioned Ripple, there's
9:08
Solana, there's the BNB token,
9:11
there is Ethereum, but then there's
9:13
other assets that you really
9:14
shouldn't be touching with the
9:15
10-foot pole.
9:17
Yeah, 100%. I mean, just the way
9:19
in there, I used to work in the
9:21
sports broadcasting industry,
9:22
and in 2019, I covered the rugby
9:24
world cup.
9:25
And my main sponsor was,
9:27
you know, a big sports betting
9:28
company in South Africa.
9:30
And without them, I wouldn't have
9:31
got there and, you know, done the
9:32
coverage and got that experience
9:34
under my belt.
9:35
At the same time, you know, there's
9:36
a lot of people in South Africa that
9:37
would argue, you know, that
9:39
these gambling houses are a
9:41
negative for society.
9:42
So it goes both ways, but
9:44
prediction markets are not quite cut
9:46
the same.
9:47
That the gambling is not a net
9:49
negative. I'm not saying that it
9:50
isn't, I mean, because it is, okay.
9:52
You know what, it's also likely a
9:54
net negative have a prostitution.
9:55
Okay, that's pretty negative.
9:57
And you know what?
9:58
But it's the oldest profession in
9:59
the world as they say, right?
10:01
And again, it not me praising
10:03
gambling or prostitution, it's
10:05
me being a realist about human
10:07
nature and life.
10:09
And I'm just saying it's coming.
10:12
And the NFL, the NBA,
10:14
the MLB, you know,
10:16
Premier League, they will be
10:17
embracing these things.
10:19
The same way, when I was a kid, you
10:20
couldn't smoke pot in New York.
10:22
Try walking around in New york
10:24
today, okay? It smells like skunk
10:25
everywhere, man. You can't come out
10:27
of the building without it smelling
10:28
like skunks.
10:29
Well, I live in the Netherlands.
10:30
So yeah, I mean, like I've been to
10:32
New York a couple of times in recent
10:33
months.
10:35
And yeah, it smells like I'm walking
10:36
around in Amsterdam. But yeah, just
10:37
to that point, I wasn't trying to
10:39
lead that anywhere either.
10:41
I genuinely think prediction markets
10:42
are a net positive, especially
10:44
when people have skin in the game.
10:46
It just makes it different.
10:47
It does allow these markets to
10:49
actually, actually be a trusted
10:51
indicator of what might happen in
10:53
the future. And I think that's
10:54
what's so fascinating for me is
10:56
because A poll is a poll,
10:57
right? It takes nothing except you
10:59
clicking a button, but a prediction
11:01
market requires you to put
11:03
money into predicting the
11:05
outcome of an event.
11:06
And if it's fair and free and no
11:08
one has privileged information, it
11:10
should give you a fairly good idea
11:12
of what people think is
11:14
going to happen. So I think that's
11:15
the most fascinating part about
11:17
that. But I want to talk to you
11:18
about your book.
11:20
Tell us a little bit about what
11:21
people out there can expect from
11:23
this book. You've had such an
11:24
interesting and colorful.
11:26
Experience throughout your life.
11:27
I can imagine there's some nuggets
11:28
of wisdom that they can find there.
11:31
Well, okay, you know, this is a
11:32
little bit I've written a couple
11:33
trade books and I wrote a book about
11:35
Bitcoin I wrote one about Solana.
11:37
I'm about to I'm writing one right
11:39
now about avalanche.
11:40
So I've a little of a
11:43
multitasker. So those are trade
11:44
books but this is little bit more of
11:46
a political and
11:47
economic and historical book
11:49
and I tried to take my upbringing
11:52
my time
11:53
at Goldman Sachs and working in the
11:55
hedge fund industry my
11:58
lopsided and failed career as a
12:00
White House communications director,
12:01
but also 30 years in
12:03
presidential fundraising for
12:05
presidential candidates.
12:08
And I'm trying to stipulate
12:10
to people that we have created this
12:12
anger-based movement in our society,
12:14
at least the United States, where we
12:16
have left-leaning and right-leening
12:18
anger- based populism.
12:20
And the central question always is
12:22
why? Why did that happen?
12:23
Why are we so angry at each other?
12:25
Why can't we get the politicians
12:26
together to agree on anything?
12:29
And, uh, I distilled it down
12:31
to three things.
12:32
It's a little bit simple to say it
12:33
that way, because of course there
12:34
are many things, uh
12:36
but if you just hear me out for a
12:37
second, uh we did
12:39
three things since the Berlin
12:41
wall fell, this has created a lot
12:43
of economic anxiety for about a
12:45
third of our fellow Americans.
12:46
And so what are they?
12:48
Number one, when China came into the
12:50
world trade organization, they
12:52
came in as an emerging market.
12:55
Country.
12:56
And they had these additional powers
12:58
that were very beneficial
13:00
to them to grow.
13:01
As they became the size and scale
13:03
of the Netherlands, let's say, or
13:05
Germany or the United Kingdom, we
13:07
needed to treat them like that.
13:09
And we needed the treat them more
13:11
fairly as a developed nation.
13:12
We did not do that.
13:14
And they grew into this economic
13:15
superpower, which I don't mind.
13:18
God bless China for that.
13:20
But it had a hollowing out effect of
13:21
our manufacturing.
13:22
Now, some will say it was robotic.
13:24
Technology as well, but this
13:26
was very symbolic for the Americans
13:28
second thing quickly.
13:29
We went to war
13:32
two decades of war
13:35
Two tax cuts Never
13:37
did that before the United States
13:39
always raised taxes if
13:40
we had to go to war We did two
13:43
wars at Afghanistan and Iraq
13:44
two tax cuts Two
13:47
decades of War these guys were
13:48
expecting this war to last a few
13:50
months. It went on for two decades
13:52
It cost us $8 trillion.
13:54
So. Step one, wage
13:56
anxiety.
13:57
Step two, we are rapidly
13:59
inflating our
14:01
currency. We are monetizing our
14:03
debt. We are devaluing our currency,
14:06
you've got that big, beautiful neon
14:07
sign behind you.
14:10
The Satoshi team understood
14:12
that and said, hey man, we gotta get
14:13
a hard asset in here, something
14:14
that's totally decentralized
14:17
and that the government can't, you
14:19
know what with.
14:20
Uh, but we, we went from guys,
14:22
you got to think about this.
14:23
We went from bill Clinton's
14:25
administrations and to
14:27
George, uh,
14:29
to, to George W.
14:30
Bush, Barack Obama, uh
14:32
Donald Trump, Biden,
14:34
Trump, $33 trillion
14:37
of deficit spending guys.
14:38
I mean, you know, we moved from
14:39
George Washington to Bill Clinton,
14:41
5.8 trillion, it's
14:43
not sustainable guys.
14:44
Okay. And that was, that was where
14:46
it got started.
14:47
And then the last piece, the
14:48
American citizens got mad.
14:50
When we bailed out the banks,
14:53
we gave the banks a trillion
14:54
dollars.
14:55
Yes, the banks paid it back, but I'm
14:56
just talking about the symbolism of
14:58
it.
14:59
The American people were like, wait
15:00
a minute, you killed my wages,
15:03
you're inflating away my savings,
15:05
and now when bad times come, you're
15:07
taking care of the fat cats.
15:08
And just to remind everybody, 5,000
15:10
people in the year 2008
15:12
got a million dollars or more
15:14
in bonuses in
15:16
a year where the banks needed a $1
15:18
trillion bailout.
15:19
So. So these are things I'm writing
15:21
about in the book so I can help
15:22
people at least understand
15:24
why we have Occupy Wall Street,
15:26
the Tea Party movement, the MAGA
15:28
movement, the Bernie Sanders
15:30
DSA movements.
15:33
And I'm trying to suggest to
15:35
people there's an alternative way we
15:37
can calm this thing down and
15:39
start working on more practical
15:40
things that can help a government.
15:42
Do better.
15:43
Yeah, beautiful.
15:44
A lot of that really resonates with
15:46
me what you've just said, and it
15:47
does make me kind of
15:49
want to pick your brain a little bit
15:51
about the current landscape,
15:53
the Trump administration in the
15:55
second go,
15:58
and the amount of good work
16:00
that that administration did for the
16:02
crypto industry in general when
16:04
you compare that to the Biden
16:06
administration. Yeah, no question.
16:07
But at the same time,
16:09
I think all of us.
16:11
Can very honestly say that there was
16:13
a lot of grift and graph going on
16:15
that Trump's and their family, you
16:17
know, have benefited massively
16:20
from the ties that they have to all
16:22
sorts of businesses in the
16:23
cryptocurrency industry.
16:24
And as someone who's been working in
16:25
this industry since 2017, it's
16:27
a bit disconcerting for me because
16:29
it's it's, it is a balancing act,
16:31
right? Like we all wanted all these
16:33
positive things for our industry to
16:35
happen in the United States.
16:36
But at the other
16:38
side, it's like one group
16:39
of people.
16:40
Taking advantage like that could
16:42
come back to bite us very badly
16:44
in the next few years.
16:45
And I wonder if you do think the
16:47
scales are going to tip again in the
16:49
other favor, and we might see
16:51
some of the good work reversed if
16:53
there is a change in the White
16:54
House.
16:57
I'm worried about it.
16:59
I'm not, I'm, not, not worried
17:00
about it. What I'm hoping is we have
17:02
two years left in the Trump
17:04
administration.
17:05
And I'm hoping that the
17:07
codification that's now going to
17:09
happen from the SEC, which is
17:11
effectively going to have an
17:12
administrator write the Clarity Act.
17:15
Uh, and I'm hoping that there'll be
17:16
enough people in the industry that
17:18
advance. I like the ripple story
17:20
that you brought up today because
17:21
that's an advancement in the
17:23
industry and I, I, I'm a
17:25
big believer.
17:26
You know, that I want everybody to
17:27
win in this industry.
17:28
You know, I'm a big believer in
17:29
rising tide lifts all boats.
17:31
You know if I'm with different big
17:34
founders or players in the industry,
17:35
I'm always suggesting to them,
17:37
Hey, it's too small of an
17:39
industry.
17:40
We got to get, we got to get it
17:41
together and help each other in
17:43
this industry. Let's not peck each
17:44
other's eyeballs out because we've
17:46
got the big banks to peck our
17:47
eyeballs out. Okay.
17:48
We don't need any more internal
17:50
strife. And I
17:52
am worried about it.
17:53
I'm not going to say that I'm not
17:54
worried about. It, but I'm hoping
17:55
that we got some level of
17:58
ramping and escape velocity
18:00
from Paul Atkins in
18:02
the SEC, where there's a lot of
18:03
sediment in place so that
18:05
if a Gary Gensler
18:07
redux happens or redo happens.
18:10
That we will be able to stop
18:12
him from making
18:15
seismic, maniacal,
18:17
unnecessary, partisan
18:19
changes. You know what I hate about?
18:21
What goes on in American regulation,
18:24
it's not what it's left
18:26
leaning regulation or right
18:28
leaning regulation.
18:29
It's not, what's right or wrong for
18:31
the industry or
18:32
right or long for the customer.
18:34
And it's just silly, you know, in
18:36
the meantime, you, know the
18:37
technology, I know the, technology.
18:40
And I submit to everybody listening
18:41
that the technology is actually
18:43
better than the
18:45
traditional financial technology.
18:47
So trade fi, God bless, But
18:50
there Same thing with the
18:52
prediction markets.
18:53
They're going to move to a 24-7
18:55
trading cycle
18:57
with tokenized stocks and bonds.
18:59
That's just going to happen.
19:01
You want to slow it down, okay.
19:03
You want the big banks to lobby the
19:05
Senate.
19:06
I mean, Elizabeth Warren is like the
19:08
joke of jokes, right?
19:09
She's supposed to be some like
19:13
progressive populist, a champion
19:15
of the non-bank, the underbanked
19:17
people.
19:18
She's the champion of it.
19:19
But then when she's you know,
19:21
putting her social media screens
19:22
out. It's the talking points from
19:24
the American Banking Association,
19:26
the largest lobbying.
19:28
You see what I mean?
19:29
And so these people are like a joke.
19:31
You know, why don't we just do
19:32
what's right for the industry and
19:34
what's for the customer.
19:37
And, you know.
19:39
I don't know.
19:39
I'm worried about it, but I do think
19:41
we've got two years here where
19:44
we can create some ramping
19:46
the way Brad Garlinghouse
19:48
just did at Ripple.
19:50
And hopefully.
19:51
I'm hopeful.
19:52
Yeah. Yeah. Look, we chatted to
19:53
Chris Giancola at Avalanche Summit,
19:55
it must have been about a month ago,
19:56
and he kind of said the same thing.
19:57
He was like, it was literally the
19:59
day after the Clarity Act Clota had
20:01
kind of failed.
20:02
And he said he wasn't too concerned
20:03
because both the SEC and the CFTC
20:05
right now have very capable
20:07
people within the administration
20:09
and at the top of
20:11
it. And they're going to do everything
20:12
in their power to take
20:14
the baton from the politicians
20:16
that have failed.
20:17
And go and make sure that the right
20:19
things are put down for the industry
20:21
to succeed.
20:23
And at this point, the genie's
20:25
out the bottle and you just can't
20:27
put it back in.
20:28
And I at least have that
20:30
feeling.
20:30
And yeah, I'm generally
20:32
a glass half full type person.
20:34
So I don't see it going
20:36
backwards drastically because I just
20:38
don't think it can at this
20:40
time. But I did wanna kind of
20:42
chat to you. The first time we met
20:43
was in Davos.
20:44
While I was still working at
20:45
Cointelegraph, I think it was 2023,
20:47
and we had a very interesting
20:48
conversation.
20:49
It's been about three or four
20:51
years since then.
20:52
I'd imagine your breadth and
20:54
understanding of the industry has
20:56
evolved a lot.
20:57
I know that I, you know, I mean, you
20:59
mentioned the Bitcoin sign behind
21:00
me. I'm a big proponent for Bitcoin,
21:02
especially in the times that we live
21:04
in. You know, people should take
21:05
control of their money and lean on
21:07
something that is completely devoid
21:08
of any sort of third party
21:11
control.
21:11
But when you look at the industry
21:13
now, are you more hopeful than ever
21:15
that Bitcoin and a handful of these
21:17
other protocols that are building
21:18
the financial rails of the future
21:20
will save us from this
21:22
$33 trillion in debt kind
21:24
of situation that we, you find
21:26
yourself in the US and the rest of
21:27
the world also finds it in different
21:29
states.
21:30
Well, you know, here's what I would
21:32
say four years ago, I
21:34
would have thought we were higher
21:36
Four years ago.
21:37
I would've thought we would have had
21:38
way more institutional adoption
21:41
Four years, I thought by
21:43
this point we would've probably had
21:44
some perps in the US
21:46
market and there would have been
21:48
some 24-7 trading
21:50
on exchanges like the NASDAQ or
21:51
the New York Stock Exchange
21:53
So it has gone
21:55
slower than I thought
21:58
Uh, if you said to me, what's
22:00
Bitcoin's price, it was 2022.
22:03
Uh, we were getting our asses
22:05
kicked. You're allowed to say that
22:06
on your show. I'm assuming you are.
22:08
You can cuss all
22:09
you want.
22:11
You're nice and young, I figure I'm
22:12
allowed to curse.
22:13
So we were getting our asses kicked
22:15
by the FTX debacle.
22:17
And I'm like, all right, you know,
22:19
we're starting to see a little bit
22:20
of a green shoot in Bitcoin.
22:22
I would have begged for
22:24
Bitcoin to be at 80,000
22:26
about four years ago.
22:27
I would've said, oh God, if we could
22:29
just get back to 80,00, I'll be so
22:31
happy. But the
22:33
euphoria of the Trump administration
22:35
knocked us to 126,000.
22:39
And so when I was there,
22:41
which is like a year ago, I'm like,
22:43
okay, this is going to get fully
22:44
adapted. This is going mainstream.
22:46
And again, just
22:48
25, 30%
22:50
of the market capitalization of gold
22:52
gets you to some pretty big
22:54
numbers, right? So gold is right
22:56
now, I mean, I could look it up, but
22:57
it's probably like a $25 trillion
22:59
asset globally.
23:02
Yeah. So if you were just 30%
23:04
of gold.
23:05
You are a $7 trillion,
23:07
$8 trillion asset for Bitcoin,
23:10
I would have thought after the
23:12
Trump euphoria
23:15
that we would have been closer
23:16
to that. Now that's six, $700,000
23:19
worth of Bitcoin per coin.
23:21
Didn't happen.
23:22
You got a lot of naysayers out there
23:24
now. You got the all-in guys like
23:25
Chamath and Jason saying Bitcoin's
23:27
going to zero.
23:30
Quantum computing is coming.
23:31
It's gonna take out Bitcoin and
23:33
all that stuff.
23:35
I like that stuff, okay?
23:36
I want that stuff in the market
23:37
because that type of FUD
23:39
floors Bitcoin, you know?
23:42
That type of fudge shakes out
23:44
the loose holders of Bitcoin.
23:46
So, you now, I'm
23:48
a perpetually optimistic person,
23:50
so hopefully you'll interview me in
23:52
four years. Hopefully I'll still be
23:53
above ground and Bitcoin
23:55
will be closer to where I think it
23:57
should be. I mean, it should 300,000
23:59
right now. I don't understand
24:00
honestly why.
24:02
I mean I do understand it, but I'm
24:04
saying.
24:05
All things being equal, especially
24:07
what's going on in the AI boom,
24:09
the rotation of capital in and out
24:11
of gold, Bitcoin
24:13
should be a lot higher.
24:15
And I'm confident
24:17
in it, and I'm older at Bitcoin, so
24:19
I don't worry about it every day,
24:21
but I would tell you that
24:23
the regulatory
24:25
headwind that our industry
24:28
has faced is way worse than
24:30
what Uber faced, or way worse than
24:31
other technologies.
24:33
I mean, these guys are locked in.
24:35
Spending billions of dollars trying
24:38
to stop this industry from breaking
24:39
out.
24:40
Yeah, it does.
24:41
It definitely does seem like that.
24:43
And I agree with you.
24:44
I would also think that the price of
24:46
Bitcoin would be a lot higher, but I
24:48
think predominantly the
24:50
surge in interest in the AI
24:52
sector took a lot of capital out
24:54
that would have gone into Bitcoin.
24:57
And interestingly enough, it's not
24:59
dissimilar to sort of the altcoin
25:02
boom from 2017
25:04
onwards with the Ethereum ICO,
25:06
you're taking a lot of the headwinds
25:08
out of Bitcoin there.
25:11
But yeah, I did want to also
25:13
chat to you a little bit about your
25:14
thoughts on the AI sector in
25:16
general, if you're as bullish
25:18
as everyone else, perhaps what
25:20
you're actually using some AI tools
25:22
for yourself in your day-to-day life
25:24
and where you see that industry
25:25
going.
25:27
Listen, you know, I, I use it,
25:29
I used it for research.
25:30
I use for renalytics.
25:31
I use a for writing.
25:33
Uh, you sometimes I'm, uh,
25:35
I'm tongue tight on an email.
25:37
I'll throw it into AI.
25:39
Uh, I don't love the AI,
25:41
uh pros, if I'm being honest,
25:43
I think people can smell AI pros
25:44
quickly, but I think
25:46
he does give you some ideas.
25:48
You know, and when I'm writing an
25:50
op-ed, I always throw it at the AI
25:51
to see what AI comes back to me
25:53
with. Maybe they'll reform an idea
25:55
differently than me.
25:57
I do use it in our podcasting,
25:59
try to come up with subject
26:00
material, try to think about,
26:02
you know, I'll ask the AI to surf
26:04
various social media sites to
26:06
see what's most topical.
26:07
So it's sort of a fast way to do
26:09
that.
26:11
Very much so on the analytical side,
26:13
you know, we pump the AI
26:15
and we have a lot of different
26:16
agents working for us on risk
26:18
management and on
26:20
analytics of different securities.
26:22
It's not just Bitcoin, private
26:23
assets, et cetera.
26:24
I'm not
26:28
I'm a huge fan, I'm fully
26:30
disclosed, I am a small owner of
26:32
things like SpaceX and Anthropic,
26:34
not life-changing or anything like
26:35
that, but I got into some of
26:37
those things early.
26:38
I wish I had obviously invested
26:40
more, so
26:42
that's just a sign of caution in my
26:44
personality.
26:45
But I would say that it's
26:47
going to work and
26:49
I'm not an apocalyptic person.
26:52
I think if we really have
26:54
this level of danger, it's a lot
26:56
like atomic power.
26:57
And we figured that out.
26:59
And I think it's incumbent upon the
27:00
world to figure this out and to
27:02
try to protect each other from
27:05
whatever the nefarious things could
27:06
be that could happen.
27:08
And I guess I'm a believer that
27:10
we can figure it out.
27:11
We have sordid people
27:13
and bad people on earth, but we
27:15
generally have very good people.
27:16
And I should be able to figure it.
27:18
Out. So I'm optimistic about.
27:20
Yeah, I think the good outweighs the
27:21
bad in most cases.
27:23
But again, I think you and I are
27:24
very similarly glass-hoffful
27:26
type of people.
27:27
I wanted to chat to you very
27:28
quickly. This was two stories in the
27:30
block briefing about Bitcoin
27:32
treasury companies.
27:33
Have you ever had a chance to meet
27:34
Michael Saylor?
27:36
What do you think of the whole
27:37
evolution of micro
27:39
strategy, inter-strategy,
27:41
STRC, and then obviously Strive
27:43
coming out in the last year?
27:45
We had Matt Cole on the show last
27:46
week and he kind of told us a story
27:48
about how they came up with these
27:50
daily dividends and that came from
27:52
conversations with NASDAQ and they
27:53
approached them and were like, can
27:55
we do this?
27:56
It looks like your rules say that
27:57
there's nothing wrong with doing
27:58
this. And they're like, well, yeah,
27:59
actually, yeah you can.
28:01
And that rewrote the game and
28:03
fast forward a few months and now,
28:05
Saylor himself has had to make STRC
28:08
move to daily dividend payouts and
28:09
it just makes a lot of sense.
28:11
What's your general thoughts on the
28:12
Bitcoin treasury company movement
28:13
and do you think it's a net positive
28:14
for Bitcoin?
28:17
Well, just to step back, you know, I
28:19
met with Michael in
28:21
October of 2020.
28:23
He had purchased his first Bitcoin
28:24
in August of 2020,
28:27
and that intellectual
28:29
discussion really pushed me
28:31
over the edge. I made my first
28:33
major Bitcoin purchases
28:35
then we're talking, you know, six
28:36
figures for clients and
28:38
made a big announcement that we're
28:39
moving into Bitcoin and some people
28:41
fired me and other people were
28:43
very happy about that.
28:44
I mean, that was, you know, it's how
28:46
it works, you But Michael
28:48
also wrote the introduction to my
28:50
book, The Little Book of Bitcoin,
28:52
which I wrote for the
28:54
John Wiley series, which has done
28:56
very well.
28:58
And I love Michael.
28:59
I think he's a genius and I think
29:01
he's one of the real revolutionaries
29:04
in our world, in our
29:05
domain.
29:07
And I would just say that people
29:08
don't really understand the story
29:11
around strategy.
29:12
They should do more homework.
29:14
They'll see that he has a
29:15
fortress balance sheet.
29:17
They'll see that he has,
29:19
you know, he's sitting on as you
29:20
reference 4% of the holdings
29:22
of Bitcoin and he's
29:24
going to be right. Now it's a timing
29:26
issue how right he's gonna be.
29:28
If you're
29:31
a short-termer, I would
29:32
say, you're gonna be
29:35
disappointed, but if you can hold
29:36
that security for four or five
29:38
years, like most
29:40
people in Bitcoin, you'll be
29:41
incredibly well rewarded.
29:43
And he does have something.
29:45
He does have a competitive advantage
29:46
because of where is NAV
29:49
is and his MNav is relative to
29:51
others so we can create that
29:52
flywheel. Now the STRC.
29:55
It's interesting we own that.
29:56
That's we want to be fully disclosed
29:58
on that.
29:59
I just think it's very safe
30:01
and I think it is
30:03
a higher yielding product,
30:05
but he's betting on what
30:07
I'm betting on, which is the
30:09
macro.
30:11
What I call the orange tsunami,
30:12
you know when bitcoins at 300,000
30:15
people will be looking back saying
30:16
why why didn't I own some of that?
30:19
And it was a really good buy
30:21
obviously in the mid 80s and he's a
30:22
very he's away more cautious
30:24
person Than people
30:26
think and I think he's done an
30:28
exceptional job with his financial
30:31
management team of
30:33
managing that balance sheet and
30:36
so I'm very happy with that security
30:38
and very happy within and
30:40
I'm appreciative that he's in our
30:41
industry.
30:42
Yeah, I mean, I'm still
30:44
waiting for my chance to interview
30:45
Michael Saylor, so hopefully it does
30:47
happen sometime soon,
30:49
but that there is no doubting that
30:50
he has pioneered this industry and
30:52
he moved way, way ahead of everyone
30:54
else.
30:54
And I think he probably gets a lot.
30:56
When he takes the great thing about
30:58
interviewing Michael Saylor, you're
30:59
not going to have to do a lot of
31:00
work. Okay? I'll just let you know
31:01
that. Okay?
31:02
He's going to come up with the
31:03
machine gun, man.
31:04
You can boom, boom, you know what I
31:06
mean?
31:08
If I get a few minutes...
31:09
He's really one of the smartest
31:11
people I've ever met in my life.
31:14
Yeah, so I've heard I have
31:16
I have, I know a lot of people that
31:16
have attended his his dinners and
31:18
that kind of thing. And he's he's
31:20
just full of full of wisdom
31:22
and kind of doesn't stop talking
31:23
because he's got so much to share.
31:26
Yeah, I think just to
31:28
wrap it up, because I know you need
31:29
to to be gone in the next 10 minutes
31:30
or so.
31:31
Your general forecast for for twenty
31:33
twenty seven onwards,
31:35
we we've obviously been in a
31:36
prolonged bear market.
31:38
There's been a bit of bearish
31:39
sentiment in the last week or so.
31:42
What's your general outlook for next
31:43
year? We've only got two months of
31:45
the year left.
31:46
Do you think we're uphill from here?
31:52
Well, I mean, I'm never going to get
31:54
it right with a two-month
31:55
outlook, but I think
31:57
that you've just, you've got things
31:59
that have happened that didn't need
32:01
to happen. I'm not trying to make
32:02
this political, but if you're going
32:04
to have a war in Iran
32:06
that's going to now be a protracted
32:08
forever war, you got an
32:10
energy supply shock that have kicked
32:11
up rates. Remember, we came into the
32:13
year thinking we could get two,
32:15
possibly three, rate cuts.
32:17
We're now getting.
32:19
Two, possibly three rate hikes.
32:21
That's 150 basis point differential.
32:24
Guys, pay attention,
32:26
the interest rates are the
32:28
physical gravity of financial
32:29
assets. When they go up,
32:31
your asset prices are gonna go down.
32:34
And so you've had this
32:36
bolstering situation
32:38
from all the capital spend in
32:40
the economy related to AI and
32:42
energy and compute around AI,
32:44
which certainly helped the economy.
32:46
But just imagine if we just
32:48
had the four.
32:49
Percent rate on the
32:51
10 year that we had
32:53
in February, you know, we would be
32:55
off to the races right now So
32:57
so you have to tell me there's a lot
32:58
of geopolitical factors that are
33:00
happening if you can end the war and
33:02
knock down The energy prices you're
33:05
gonna you're going to touch off
33:06
another echo.
33:07
Boom. I'm not a bear I'm
33:09
just saying you've got some
33:10
uncertainty there, which is why
33:11
we're slogging a little bit You
33:13
know, I think 27 should also
33:16
be a good year still lots of capital
33:18
spending Uh, I think
33:20
this adoption phase from the
33:22
sec, uh, as these
33:23
rules get laid out for people, it's
33:25
going to help our industry.
33:27
There will be tokenization in
33:29
27, meaning
33:31
you and I will see, oh, wow.
33:32
Uh, the NASDAQ teamed up with
33:34
Kraken and they've tokenized some,
33:36
uh funds.
33:38
They've told them, you know, black
33:39
rock is involved with this
33:41
and others, uh,
33:42
that are big believers in this.
33:44
And so it should be a good
33:47
fundamental year for digital
33:49
assets, the good digital assets.
33:51
But you've got this overhang, you
33:53
know, there's a lot of uncertainty,
33:54
you
33:55
Yeah, of course, the geopolitical
33:57
situation always plays a
33:59
significant role in our markets.
34:01
But yeah, just to back that up, I
34:03
mean, we were at the NASDAQ two
34:04
weeks ago for Evernorth's
34:07
listing, the first XRP treasury
34:09
company listed there, and we sat
34:10
down with Brad Garlinghouse.
34:12
So there's definitely these
34:14
big wins in
34:16
the sales that are coming.
34:17
And it's just the case of looking at
34:19
everything with a dose of
34:21
perspective, which you have given us
34:22
plenty of today. Anthony, thank you
34:24
so much for your time.
34:25
We'll let you enjoy your hot cup
34:27
of... Great to be on with you guys
34:28
and hopefully you're coming to
34:29
Davos.
34:29
We'll see in Davos if you come.
34:31
Yeah, we've we're in talks with
34:33
the the USA house to do
34:35
something there. So hopefully we'll
34:36
bring the show to Davos and we can
34:38
catch up again in person.
34:39
But we'll leave you to enjoy cold.
34:41
Out at the USA houses, you would
34:43
imagine, even though the Trumpers
34:44
don't necessarily love me,
34:46
they sort of still like me.
34:47
They can't get rid of me. You know,
34:48
I'm a little bit like gum on the
34:49
bottom of your shoe.
34:51
So you can't, you can get rid me
34:52
whether you want to or not, you
34:53
know.
34:54
No, you can't, but before I
34:55
let you go, but my last question,
34:57
obviously, Katie Zakaria, it didn't
34:59
even last as long as you did in the
35:00
White House.
35:01
If you have any parting thoughts for
35:03
her or just on that whole situation.
35:05
Well, you know, listen, I said on
35:07
Twitter what I meant shut your phone
35:09
off Katie and you know Go enjoy
35:11
your family.
35:12
Don't listen to the meat grinding
35:14
and You know, they
35:16
they put me through the meat grinder
35:17
You got to have the right attitude
35:19
about life without to let that stuff
35:21
bother you, right?
35:22
Otherwise, you can get consumed by
35:24
all the negative commentary and all
35:26
that other stuff She seems
35:28
like a nice person.
35:29
She did direct message me on
35:31
on Twitter to sort of like a
35:33
Thank you for being generous
35:36
to me. I certainly don't want to
35:38
stomp on her grave, God forbid, and
35:40
I wish her well, and she'll figure
35:41
it out.
35:42
But, you know, that's a tough job,
35:44
and that's not the right job for
35:45
everybody. And by the way, I'm not
35:47
being critical of her.
35:48
It wasn't the right for me.
35:49
I got my ass fired after 11 days,
35:51
so I'm sitting here, you
35:54
got to know who you are in life.
35:55
You know, but you know, I think the
35:57
big message here for Katie
35:58
Zachariah, everybody listening.
36:01
Don't take yourself that seriously.
36:03
It's okay. You can have
36:05
snafus in your life and you can have
36:06
ups and downs, but
36:08
if you have the right attitude, you
36:10
can a great life.
36:10
I think that's the message.
36:12
Beautiful. Anthony, thank you so
36:13
much. Enjoy the rest of your day.
36:15
You can drop off as you go.
36:16
Thank you for bringing me on this morning.
36:18
I appreciate it. Thank you very
36:19
much. Thank you.
36:21
Thank you, very much for joining us
36:23
on The Slotting Block.
36:23
Great conversation with Anthony
36:25
Scaramucci. He's definitely left me
36:26
with a smile on my face.
36:28
Just once again, if you've missed
36:29
any of the content that we've been
36:30
putting out over the last few weeks,
36:32
we've being very busy myself and my
36:33
producer Jordan, my right-hand man.
36:35
We've been all around the world.
36:36
We were in Lugana, Switzerland last
36:38
week. The week before that, we were
36:39
in New York.
36:40
At the NASDAQ the week before that
36:42
we were at token 2049 in Singapore
36:44
the week Before that we we're in
36:46
New York for Avalanche Summit
36:48
And the list goes on and on we've
36:50
been very very busy if you missed
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36:52
That we've being putting out you can
36:54
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Anthony Scaramucci.
37:11
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37:41
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37:45
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37:47
wherever you are around the world.
37:48
We'll see you on Wednesday.