Latest / Dear Divorce Diary: A Fresh Approach To Healing Grief & Building A Life Of Confidence After Divorce / 377. Why Your Nervous System Resists the Life You Want After Divorce

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377. Why Your Nervous System Resists the Life You Want After Divorce · Dear Divorce Diary: A Fresh Approach To Healing Grief & Building A Life Of Confidence After Divorce

0:00
SPEAKER_00: Good morning.
0:01
SPEAKER_00: Gutentag.
0:02
SPEAKER_00: Is that right?
0:03
SPEAKER_00: Is that good morning?
0:04
SPEAKER_00: Guten Gutentag?
0:06
SPEAKER_00: Maybe.
0:07
SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
0:07
SPEAKER_00: If you speak German and you know whether or not that is good morning, please let us know.
0:12
SPEAKER_01: I really hope it's not offensive.
0:14
SPEAKER_00: I don't think it is, but wouldn't that be the plot twist?
0:18
SPEAKER_00: My grandparents were fluent at one point.
0:20
SPEAKER_00: And so from time to time, my grandfather would say certain things like uh dumkoff.
0:25
SPEAKER_00: Stupid.
0:26
SPEAKER_00: Uh he called me Donovan a lot, uh, which I hated because there was a boy in my class whose name was Donovan and he was smelly and I didn't want to be called Donovan.
0:34
SPEAKER_01: Right.
0:34
SPEAKER_01: You don't want to be called Donovan.
0:35
SPEAKER_00: Um and let's oh, Vasus Los, what's up?
0:38
SPEAKER_00: And uh he would often teach me to count, but you know, anyways.
0:42
SPEAKER_01: I love that you have those memories.
0:44
SPEAKER_01: That's fun.
0:46
SPEAKER_01: How was your weekend, Live?
0:47
SPEAKER_01: My weekend was amazing.
0:49
SPEAKER_01: It was a lot of fun.
0:50
SPEAKER_01: But this is the new thing that I'm really hyper obsessed about right now is that we played a game with a my group of friends, but it's reverse shades.
0:59
SPEAKER_01: What?
0:59
SPEAKER_01: So you have a director and you have an actor.
1:02
SPEAKER_01: So you have to be like right hand out.
1:05
SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
1:06
SPEAKER_01: And then you direct them through an action.
1:09
SPEAKER_01: So I had to direct my friend to be riding a horse.
1:13
SPEAKER_01: So I had to tell her what to do because everybody else.
1:17
SPEAKER_01: And then they had to guess that she was riding a horse.
1:19
SPEAKER_01: And then you had to guess.
1:20
SPEAKER_00: So can we do this in a social one day?
1:22
SPEAKER_00: Is it possible to do that?
1:23
SPEAKER_00: Oh, yes.
1:25
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
1:26
SPEAKER_01: And it was, you know, like so much fun.
1:29
SPEAKER_00: So I'm obsessed with this topic today because I think it has so many applications.
1:36
SPEAKER_00: Like it applies to um how to know, you know, which healing thing to do next.
1:44
SPEAKER_00: It it applies to how to know who and with and how to set boundaries in your life, like who to say yes and no to.
1:51
SPEAKER_00: It applies to how to know if you're spotting a red flag versus it's the whole conversation about intuition versus anxiety, how to know if you're repeating patterns in dating.
2:00
SPEAKER_00: Like this concept in general just applies to so much when you're in a process of transforming your life after crisis or like leaning into the healing journey.
2:12
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
2:18
SPEAKER_00: Hi, love.
2:19
SPEAKER_00: Welcome to Dear Divorce Diary, the podcast helping divorcees go beyond talk therapy to process your grief, find the healing you crave, and build back your confidence.
2:29
SPEAKER_00: I'm your host, Don Wiggins, a therapist, coach, integrative healer, and divorcee.
2:35
SPEAKER_00: Join me for a fresh approach to healing grief and building your confidence after divorce.
2:47
SPEAKER_00: Okay, so let's start with the idea of, well, gosh, I know this thing is probably the right move, but my body is like, hell no, I won't go.
3:02
SPEAKER_00: So let's like play around with the idea of what something that historically you and I, and maybe our listeners have thought is oh, this is I should probably do this, but my body doesn't want to do it.
3:18
SPEAKER_00: I personally will go first, clearly.
3:21
SPEAKER_00: I think that happens a lot with setting boundaries with people who I have historically felt intimidated by.
3:35
SPEAKER_01: Um, because I receive love for making other people happy.
3:41
SPEAKER_01: Um and so by prioritizing me, my health, my choices, I really struggle with that because as you know, seeing a mom of three small kids, like their survival depended on me.
3:56
SPEAKER_01: And, you know, my parents, like keeping my mom happy is how she would still stay in my life.
4:01
SPEAKER_01: Because if I hurt her feelings, she disappeared in terms of like withdrew her affection.
4:07
SPEAKER_01: So like all these small things that have trained my nervous system to equate with safety.
4:14
SPEAKER_01: Put me last.
4:15
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
4:16
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
4:16
SPEAKER_00: That is the crux of the entire episode.
4:18
SPEAKER_00: You're a genius.
4:22
SPEAKER_00: And I run into that so much because you know, I've been getting to talk to our listeners on calls.
4:27
SPEAKER_00: And for that reason, this is one of my favorite times of year.
4:30
SPEAKER_00: Like, I have had some of the coolest calls.
4:33
SPEAKER_00: Like, I have been on the phone with the UK, not with the UK, but you understand.
4:37
SPEAKER_00: Names were changed to protect the innocent.
4:39
SPEAKER_00: Um Dubai.
4:42
SPEAKER_00: Uh, I am working to get on a call with Australia.
4:45
SPEAKER_00: That's not gonna work from a programmatic standpoint, but like I just love connecting with our listeners so, so, so much.
4:50
SPEAKER_00: But what you're talking about there, like the recognition that very often it is hard to choose the self-caring thing to prioritize self, because that is not how your nervous system has interpreted safety for literal decades.
5:09
SPEAKER_00: Like for most women's lives, I think prioritizing self actually feels like there's some threat associated with it.
5:15
SPEAKER_00: So let's unpack what those threats are, right?
5:17
SPEAKER_00: Like if I were to prioritize my needs or my healing or my recovery or my rest or uh whatever that is, why does your nervous system perceive those things as threats?
5:27
SPEAKER_00: You started to talk about it, but like tell us more.
5:31
SPEAKER_01: Oh, uh it's the familiar.
5:34
SPEAKER_01: It's the things that A, my nervous system was taught.
5:38
SPEAKER_01: It was literally sculpted to if I did this.
5:42
SPEAKER_01: Codependency to be in service.
5:44
SPEAKER_01: To be that's a great way to do it.
5:46
SPEAKER_01: To take care to manage other people's feelings.
5:47
SPEAKER_01: To manage.
5:49
SPEAKER_01: Um, and so it's the difference between it's the difference between learning something intuitively intellectually or and practicing it.
6:02
SPEAKER_01: So like I know if I eat this entire chocolate cake, I'm gonna be nauseous, which I've never done.
6:11
SPEAKER_01: Let's be honest.
6:12
SPEAKER_01: But like no, it's I that that's scene in Matilda, right?
6:15
SPEAKER_01: Like where he had eats the entire um you you're gonna have ramifications, you're gonna get sick, but it feels better to do this thing in the moment.
6:27
SPEAKER_00: In the moment it brings relief, right?
6:29
SPEAKER_00: In the moment it uh delays conflict, or it delays negative feedback, or it delays disappointing someone, or it delays someone yelling at you, or it delays what?
6:40
SPEAKER_00: I don't know, spiraling in your bed in the middle of the night, or yeah, until later.
6:47
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
6:47
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
6:49
SPEAKER_00: And so I mean, the consequences of that, I feel like I broke that habit in some ways early on, but only because it felt like my life, my literal life depended on it because of cluster headaches, right?
7:01
SPEAKER_00: And I really think that that's what it took to bring me to my knees.
7:04
SPEAKER_00: I just think, you know, by 19, I had shingles and by 27 I had cluster headaches.
7:11
SPEAKER_00: And I just think that I pushed my body to its literal breaking point.
7:18
SPEAKER_00: And then I had cluster headaches for 15 years trying to figure out how to unwind this exact precise phenomenon because I was so afraid to not do what my nervous system was trained to do, right?
7:29
SPEAKER_00: But my nervous system was trained to work until until I couldn't work anymore.
7:35
SPEAKER_00: Like it was not uncommon in college and grad school for me to have three jobs at a time.
7:39
SPEAKER_00: And that's sort of been the case, you know, all always, just to work no matter what.
7:45
SPEAKER_00: And certainly to never say no to certain people, right?
7:49
SPEAKER_00: Resting was not, it was like indulgent.
7:52
SPEAKER_00: Um I think even having fun in many ways was like seen as problematic.
7:58
SPEAKER_00: Uh, and so that just all dumped into right, like just working nonstop.
8:04
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
8:05
SPEAKER_00: And then at some point my HPA access was like, no, actually, what your nervous system is trained to do is gonna cause you to die, a slow, painful, agonized death.
8:15
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
8:16
SPEAKER_00: Um, so then I quickly had to learn to flip it around, but it it it it didn't come easier naturally, and there are still pockets where I'm stepping that out.
8:26
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
8:26
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
8:28
SPEAKER_01: Peel back the layers, right?
8:29
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yes, peel back the layers.
8:31
SPEAKER_00: It doesn't happen all at once, 100%.
8:33
SPEAKER_00: Um And so some of the things that I would say though, in the in the in between, in the messy middle of trying to recover my nervous system, right?
8:43
SPEAKER_00: Is like, what if this pain never ends?
8:47
SPEAKER_00: What if I'm stuck like this forever?
8:50
SPEAKER_00: What if everything I'm doing doesn't work?
8:53
SPEAKER_00: What are some things you've said in the messy middle where when you're transitioning from doing it the old way that gives you the instant round?
9:03
SPEAKER_01: I really I um I remember one time I told you, but I like who I am.
9:08
SPEAKER_00: Uh-huh.
9:09
SPEAKER_01: Oh, oh, let's um that.
9:12
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
9:14
SPEAKER_00: Just a few weeks ago.
9:16
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
9:16
SPEAKER_00: Go ahead.
9:17
SPEAKER_01: Go ahead.
9:17
unknown: Good.
9:18
SPEAKER_01: No, I want to hear.
9:18
SPEAKER_01: I want to hear.
9:19
SPEAKER_00: Just a few weeks ago you said, I feel frustrated.
9:21
SPEAKER_00: I just want answers, right?
9:23
SPEAKER_00: Like, so sometimes we get impatient with ourselves in the process, right?
9:26
SPEAKER_00: Like that's yeah.
9:27
SPEAKER_00: Uh-huh.
9:28
SPEAKER_00: The things we say are always the clues.
9:30
SPEAKER_00: Like they're always the clues.
9:32
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
9:32
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
9:33
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
9:33
SPEAKER_00: So, so that day we were walking, right?
9:35
SPEAKER_00: We were getting ready to record an episode, maybe.
9:37
SPEAKER_00: It was like season one.
9:38
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, probably.
9:39
SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's been a while, but yeah.
9:41
SPEAKER_00: Right?
9:42
SPEAKER_00: We were walking.
9:44
SPEAKER_00: And yes, you were like, but I like myself.
9:46
SPEAKER_00: So that is a like bespoke example of actually I'm terrified to do something new that I can't predict.
9:53
SPEAKER_00: And we were talking about that that day.
9:55
SPEAKER_00: You were, you had such powerful insight that you didn't know what it was gonna look like on the other side of doing this type of therapy.
10:03
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
10:04
SPEAKER_01: Right.
10:04
SPEAKER_00: Okay, what's the verb?
10:06
SPEAKER_01: I remember it very clearly.
10:07
SPEAKER_01: The very very I am still me.
10:10
SPEAKER_01: I am just I don't want to say calmer, because that's obvious like um it's I'm not perfect, but I do I do recognize that I was so um I vibrated.
10:25
SPEAKER_01: Like I was so worked up all the time.
10:28
SPEAKER_01: And specifically, I was worried that I wasn't gonna have a servant heart anymore because I liked Ohio.
10:36
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
10:38
SPEAKER_01: Um, I liked being uh a caretaker and unloving.
10:43
SPEAKER_01: I just get to do it pure purer.
10:48
SPEAKER_01: Is that the right word?
10:49
SPEAKER_01: Is that a word?
10:49
SPEAKER_00: More purely, more purely and less exhausted.
10:52
SPEAKER_00: And less exhausted.
10:54
SPEAKER_00: So familiar pain often feels easier than unfamiliar possibility because the nervous system in particular is operating under the premise of predictability.
11:07
SPEAKER_00: It we love to control and predict.
11:09
SPEAKER_00: And Brene Brown taught us that in her infamous 2010 TED Talk, right?
11:14
SPEAKER_00: That if we can't control and predict, we often peace out.
11:19
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
11:19
SPEAKER_00: But everything about healing, true recovery, rehabbing your attachment style, name fill in the blank, right?
11:26
SPEAKER_00: Grieving your losses, being witnessed, right, is surrendering predictability.
11:32
SPEAKER_00: Like what other moment in life is unpredictable more than divorce, right?
11:38
SPEAKER_00: Uncertainty is just like it's on every level, like financially, housing, relationships, friendships, romance, children, like name it.
11:48
SPEAKER_00: It's just uncertainty on every level.
11:50
SPEAKER_00: And in that sense, it's almost obscene that inviting women to a program where we're asking them to just just step in.
11:59
SPEAKER_00: It's gonna be okay.
12:00
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
12:01
SPEAKER_00: It's it's almost like the wind.
12:03
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
12:04
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
12:05
SPEAKER_00: It's a really hard season to trust.
12:08
SPEAKER_00: We know that as a as a collective, right?
12:11
SPEAKER_00: Women, when we're standing in front of the possibility of a different life, like this current, our current group of women that are getting ready to graduate, right?
12:19
SPEAKER_00: Like um a year ago, they like couldn't imagine that they were gonna have this different life, right?
12:24
SPEAKER_00: But and then we start to talk ourselves out of this different life.
12:28
SPEAKER_00: We start to talk ourselves out of why we can have it.
12:30
SPEAKER_00: I I still do this, right?
12:32
SPEAKER_00: Like, um, I'll say, like, well, who am I to have X, Y, or Z?
12:36
SPEAKER_00: Like, who am I to launch this retail homeopathy company?
12:40
SPEAKER_00: Like, who am I to have that kind of success, right?
12:42
SPEAKER_00: Who am I to?
12:43
SPEAKER_00: But this is just like today's version of it, right?
12:46
SPEAKER_00: Um who am I to have a healthy baby at 46?
12:49
SPEAKER_00: Like, I don't know.
12:49
SPEAKER_00: Stay tuned.
12:50
SPEAKER_00: I have no idea.
12:51
SPEAKER_00: But it's um so so often when we're approaching a different life, like that day where I was like, oh, EMDR therapy or whatever, right?
13:01
SPEAKER_00: And you're like, no.
13:02
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
13:03
SPEAKER_00: Sometimes we get excited about something.
13:05
SPEAKER_00: We're like, oh, I can visualize this future life.
13:08
SPEAKER_00: I can visualize, I prayed for this life, and you can like picture these big, exciting outcomes.
13:16
SPEAKER_00: And then here come the parts, right?
13:18
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
13:18
SPEAKER_00: The manager parts, the firefighter parts, the, you know, and they're just wanting to protect the exiles from any other pain, right?
13:25
SPEAKER_00: Like the exiles have had too much pain, and so the managers and the firefighters, the protector parts are like, oh no, no, no, no, no.
13:31
SPEAKER_00: We cannot let her take risk because remember that time and it just it gutted her.
13:38
SPEAKER_01: And then yeah.
13:39
SPEAKER_00: And so we know our listeners sometimes are struggling to even vision what their lives can look like in the future right now, right?
13:46
SPEAKER_00: Because they're protecting even against hope.
13:48
SPEAKER_00: Even hope feels dangerous or scary, right?
13:53
SPEAKER_00: So let's riff for a bit about how women sabotage their own dreams, their own hope, their own desires.
14:04
SPEAKER_00: Because they start to say, Well, maybe I can have this thing.
14:08
SPEAKER_00: And then those protective words pop up and say, like, maybe I can't.
15:02
SPEAKER_01: Right.
15:03
SPEAKER_01: Maybe it's too late, maybe I'm too old, maybe I'm too nobody's gonna want I I ruminated like nobody's gonna want a woman with three small kids.
15:12
SPEAKER_01: I gave him my best years.
15:12
SPEAKER_01: I gave him my I gave him my best years.
15:15
SPEAKER_01: I said that so many times.
15:16
SPEAKER_01: I gave him my best years.
15:18
SPEAKER_01: It's super easy, especially in this season, right?
15:20
SPEAKER_01: It's super easy to slip into victim and stay there.
15:24
SPEAKER_01: It's super easy to become a victim of your life instead of the grabbedable by the balls is the best way for me to put it, right?
15:33
SPEAKER_01: Like um, instead of this is happening to me, uh shifting into um this is happening for me, this is clearing the way.
15:44
SPEAKER_01: Like it's a it's easier to be the victim than it is to take accountability or to take power to take control of my life versus there.
15:58
SPEAKER_01: I'm hope it's hopeless.
16:00
SPEAKER_01: It's easier.
16:00
SPEAKER_01: I've I was there for so long being, you know, it's hopeless.
16:07
SPEAKER_00: We recorded an episode about that back, I think in season one again.
16:11
SPEAKER_00: It was like it was about the stages of divorce grief.
16:14
SPEAKER_00: But uh what we brought, you and I we broke it down into just two stages, which is like victim or not victim, which is right, again, it's like painting with a broad brush.
16:21
SPEAKER_00: But it's like when we're in victim, we're not moving through our grief.
16:24
SPEAKER_00: We're stuck in it, we're going backwards, right?
16:26
SPEAKER_00: We're stagnant or blocked or going backwards.
16:28
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
16:29
SPEAKER_00: And when we're empowered and when we're like, no, I can, I can, I can, I will, I can, I will, I can, I will.
16:35
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
16:36
SPEAKER_00: Then we're moving through grief, even if it's ugly and messy and it feels so much and it feels, it feels, it feels.
16:44
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
16:44
SPEAKER_00: Um, and I think so often our mind, well, this is a good example, right?
16:50
SPEAKER_00: Like last week I was able to mobilize a lot of grief in my body, and I know you were able to witness that when it was happening.
16:56
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
16:57
SPEAKER_00: I really cleverly, like I it was on purpose, right?
17:00
SPEAKER_00: Mobilized a lot of grief in my body.
17:03
SPEAKER_00: It was intentional to move things, to, to lighten the emotional load that I has been a little stuck.
17:11
SPEAKER_00: And so, but then as soon as I started feeling it, I was afraid that it had to do with current day things, right?
17:17
SPEAKER_00: And that's the story that the mind wraps around emotion.
17:20
SPEAKER_00: And I wish more people could understand this that when we're feeling feelings, the more we attach it to a story, the more we're actually blocking ourselves from making progress because we start to tell ourselves a story about what these negative emotions mean, that I can't have this or I won't be able to work through that, or what if it never stops, or what if I can't have what I want, or what if I can't ever get there, right?
17:39
SPEAKER_00: And so, yeah, the more we could just separate and just let ourselves feel and just be like, I can, I will, and I'm gonna feel these feelings and I'm gonna let them flow.
17:49
SPEAKER_00: I did that, and like 24 hours later, I was like a new woman.
17:52
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
17:56
SPEAKER_01: So let me ask you this.
17:57
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
17:58
SPEAKER_01: We've kind of touched on it, but I want to I wanna break it down.
18:01
SPEAKER_01: I want to like clear, simplify.
18:03
SPEAKER_01: What does it look like when a woman is standing right in front of a different life and starts finding reasons not to step into it?
18:11
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
18:12
SPEAKER_00: So um I've I've heard it happen on some of the calls that I've done, right?
18:17
SPEAKER_00: There are a lot of women who on a call have been like, this is exactly what I've been looking for.
18:23
SPEAKER_00: It's exactly what I need.
18:24
SPEAKER_00: It fills all the gaps of what I haven't been able to experience in one-on-one therapy.
18:29
SPEAKER_00: And then uh when they're off the call, they're like, I don't have time.
18:35
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
18:35
SPEAKER_00: Um, it's gonna be too overwhelming.
18:38
SPEAKER_00: I'm not, I'm don't have the capacity.
18:40
SPEAKER_00: I can't handle it, right?
18:41
SPEAKER_00: And sometimes that is actually true.
18:42
SPEAKER_00: And I've done calls with people where I've said, let's slow this down because I'm not sure you're ready for this program.
18:49
SPEAKER_00: Um, let's look with a finer tooth comb because I'm genuinely not positive that you're ready for this program.
18:55
SPEAKER_00: There is a certain spot that a woman needs to be in to be able to do the group work and to be able to receive the support and to be able to work through dissociation, right?
19:04
SPEAKER_00: There's a certain amount of resources that women have to have to be able to do this next level of work.
19:09
SPEAKER_00: So a call isn't just about learning what the program is or what it does.
19:15
SPEAKER_00: We pop in and we first we do some grounding breasts together.
19:19
SPEAKER_00: I love co-regulating, getting connected.
19:21
SPEAKER_00: It helps me too to drop into my body and her to drop into her body, right?
19:24
SPEAKER_00: And so we connect a little bit.
19:26
SPEAKER_00: And then we talk about, hey, what's going on in your life and is this a good fit?
19:31
SPEAKER_00: And so when we go through that with a fine-tooth comb, and then afterwards a woman is like, no, no, no, uh, XYZ is gonna keep me from being able to do this.
19:41
SPEAKER_00: I know that there is a level of protection happening in her system.
19:45
SPEAKER_00: There's a level of nervous system alarm going off that keeps her from moving forward.
19:51
SPEAKER_00: Now let's let's go to an earlier example of this.
19:54
SPEAKER_00: Let's rewind.
19:55
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
19:55
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
19:56
SPEAKER_00: She's in her marriage and she knows.
19:59
SPEAKER_00: She knows even if she hasn't caught all the evidence that he's cheating yet, or even if she hasn't caught all the evidence of addiction yet, or even if she hasn't let herself understand that he has been sidelining her forever in some way, shape, or form, right?
20:17
SPEAKER_00: She knows she is not in a partnership, she is not being prioritized, she's not being loved or cherished, maybe she's being abused, maybe she's being coerced, maybe she's being cheated on, right?
20:26
SPEAKER_00: But how long did it take her to step forward into the uncertain?
20:32
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
20:33
SPEAKER_00: Right?
20:33
SPEAKER_00: So it's like it's that thing where we doubt ourselves.
20:38
SPEAKER_00: You've talked about that so much on the podcast, Joyce.
20:40
SPEAKER_00: Like where you would talk yourself out of the truth because you weren't ready to know, right?
20:47
SPEAKER_00: And so is that true you weren't ready to know?
20:50
SPEAKER_00: Um, I yeah, yeah.
20:53
SPEAKER_00: Because you need a resource.
20:54
SPEAKER_00: You need a resource, yeah.
20:55
SPEAKER_01: I wasn't I wasn't resourced.
20:58
SPEAKER_01: I wasn't uh uh it's easier to it's easier to accept the red flag than it is to, you know what I mean?
21:09
SPEAKER_01: Like it's let me say it differently.
21:11
SPEAKER_01: It's easier to assume I'm Ron than hold someone else accountable.
21:15
SPEAKER_00: I'm actually gonna, ooh, we're gonna go very, very hardcore here.
21:18
SPEAKER_00: I'm actually gonna call bullshit that it's not true you weren't ready to know.
21:22
SPEAKER_00: That because it you ended up he came to you with the truth, right?
21:27
SPEAKER_00: That's yeah, yeah, yeah.
21:29
SPEAKER_00: So, like what changed between the day before that day and that day?
21:33
SPEAKER_00: You could you denial was no longer an option.
21:35
SPEAKER_00: So here's my point is as long as you could hang out in denial or avoidance, you were gonna stay there because it was too scary.
21:42
SPEAKER_00: You didn't believe in yourself enough.
21:44
SPEAKER_00: You did not believe in yourself and your capacity to handle life enough, but then you did it.
21:50
SPEAKER_00: You did.
21:51
SPEAKER_01: I didn't at first, though.
21:52
SPEAKER_01: Like after he, like, okay, so yes, he told me everything and I asked him to leave, but like for probably I mean, for a good while afterwards, I was still Yeah.
22:05
SPEAKER_01: Flailing.
22:06
SPEAKER_01: Not not I I was still thinking that I couldn't do it by myself.
22:10
SPEAKER_00: Right.
22:10
SPEAKER_00: But how does a woman get out of that other than to do it?
22:13
SPEAKER_00: Right.
22:13
SPEAKER_00: You don't build those rights.
22:15
SPEAKER_00: That's what I did.
22:16
SPEAKER_00: I just did it to do it.
22:17
SPEAKER_00: Correct, you did it.
22:18
SPEAKER_00: So I'm gonna do it.
22:19
SPEAKER_01: I started resourcing, I started EFT tapping, and I started like Yes, exactly.
22:23
SPEAKER_00: So this is my point, right?
22:25
SPEAKER_00: Is that as long as denial or avoidance are available options, very often humans are gonna reach for those.
22:34
SPEAKER_00: And then when it becomes not an option, and so we see that over and over again in healing cycles because women reach for like I often attract people who have tried everything else and and it hasn't worked, right?
22:46
SPEAKER_00: And so what I often want our women to hear is like, hey, maybe don't Don't wait till that point.
22:51
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
22:52
SPEAKER_00: That's okay.
22:53
SPEAKER_00: So you tried everything else, right?
22:54
SPEAKER_00: Here's the whole package.
22:55
SPEAKER_00: We designed it like this so that you could have the whole package up front, have everything that you need provided all at once.
23:01
SPEAKER_00: But I think that's the human nature that we're talking about here is when we think about why your nervous system resists the thing that could change everything, is because denial and avoidance are more comfortable in the short run than the uncertainty of the transformation.
23:20
SPEAKER_00: And we don't believe in ourselves.
23:21
SPEAKER_00: That's the core piece, right?
23:23
SPEAKER_00: We don't believe in ourselves enough and we don't trust the universe enough.
23:26
SPEAKER_00: It's an intersection of those two things.
23:30
SPEAKER_00: And so then we choose denial or avoidance instead.
23:33
SPEAKER_00: So have I answered your OG question about what it looks like when a woman is standing in front of a different life and then she starts finding reasons not to step into it.
23:41
SPEAKER_00: Like maybe he's not that bad.
23:43
SPEAKER_00: Maybe if I could just get a little bit better, maybe if um the season in our marriage passes, go.
23:50
SPEAKER_01: Right.
23:50
SPEAKER_01: I um I heard uh I'm saying for the kids.
23:56
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
23:56
SPEAKER_01: I stayed for the kids.
23:58
SPEAKER_01: Or like there's always a reason.
23:59
SPEAKER_01: There's always a yeah.
24:01
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
24:01
SPEAKER_00: And so that happens when women are working up the courage to exit the marriage.
24:05
SPEAKER_00: And then often that happens.
24:07
SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, we know that there are sort of two different paths, right?
24:11
SPEAKER_00: Sometimes women finally drum up the courage to leave, or it happens the second way, right?
24:18
SPEAKER_00: Where he says, screw it, I'm out, and I'm off with this other woman or whatever.
24:23
SPEAKER_00: And then she's standing there holding the bag and waited all those years when deep down inside of her, she knew, right?
24:30
SPEAKER_00: And so then it happens over and over and over again.
24:32
SPEAKER_00: So that same cycle that happens inside the marriage happens over and over and over outside of the marriage in divorce recovery, because at every step of growth, and we've seen this happen with the women and our two previous cohorts, they doubt that their healing is working, or they doubt that they can get to the next level of healing, or they doubt that they can move through the next breakthrough, right?
24:51
SPEAKER_00: And you said something to me recently about that is one of the unique values of community who like lives with you because they can spot when you're doing that thing and help say more about that.
25:05
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, I will die on this hill that you because your nerve your nervous system is trained, right?
25:10
SPEAKER_01: Like you it's trained.
25:13
SPEAKER_01: And so it's like the perfect flair.
25:17
SPEAKER_00: Is it what the perfect flare pair of flip slippers or flip-flops?
25:22
SPEAKER_00: Like, do you have that pair of shoes that your feet have just you've worn them for so long?
25:25
SPEAKER_00: They're just molded to your feet.
25:27
SPEAKER_01: Molded to your feet.
25:28
SPEAKER_01: Yes, yes, that's a perfect um visual for it.
25:31
SPEAKER_01: So, like, you know, um uh let's just take dating.
25:36
SPEAKER_01: Dating outside of your marriage, or like your marriage is over, you're and you hear it over and over and over again about the women who I just attract these losers, or I attract the same guy, or you know, like my fourth boyfriend has cheated on me.
25:52
SPEAKER_01: Like it's just all the same, right?
25:54
SPEAKER_01: And so I believe that you this is where community comes in because you can have you can be surrounded by and this narrative that women are backstabbers and their drama, like I don't buy into that narrative.
26:11
SPEAKER_01: Like the right community, the right circle, you know, like you get to choose who your people are and choosing people that um love and support you point out blind spots.
26:23
SPEAKER_01: Like when when I'm in the weeds and you have something that's it's a fork in the road, is this a pattern that my nervous system is used to, or is this truly safe?
26:34
SPEAKER_01: You know, like being able to filter these things through your community, through your people, through these women who love you unconditionally and support you unconditionally.
26:47
SPEAKER_01: And it's, I mean, it's not a walk in the park.
26:49
SPEAKER_01: You have to be able to assume good intent, you have to be able to hear their feedback, you have to be able to witness and be witnessed.
26:59
SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
27:00
SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
27:00
SPEAKER_01: Big big deal.
27:02
SPEAKER_01: Big deal.
27:03
SPEAKER_01: Big deal.
27:04
SPEAKER_01: Big deal.
27:05
SPEAKER_01: The community is it's your superpower.
27:10
SPEAKER_01: Because you get help in understanding yourself and your patterns.
27:16
SPEAKER_01: And like nervous, we were in a conversation with one of the ladies and she made the comment about how he was dangerous and that was hot or or something like that.
27:25
SPEAKER_01: And oh like bad boy syndrome, like bad right.
27:28
SPEAKER_01: And so um is that true, or is that just what your c your nervous system has been trained to do?
27:35
SPEAKER_01: Trained to perceive and interpret.
27:39
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
27:40
SPEAKER_01: So is your nervous system prioritizing safety over what it's familiar with?
27:48
SPEAKER_00: It's such a big deal.
27:50
SPEAKER_00: All right, let's do like a made up rapid fire.
27:54
SPEAKER_00: Uh oh.
27:55
SPEAKER_00: I know.
27:59
SPEAKER_00: Give me some water.
28:00
SPEAKER_00: All right, go.
28:02
SPEAKER_00: All right.
28:03
SPEAKER_00: Name as many examples as you can in a minute where you've had to make a choice before you felt ready.
28:13
SPEAKER_00: But it changed everything.
28:14
unknown: Gosh.
28:15
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
28:16
SPEAKER_00: Um, well, okay, go, go.
28:20
SPEAKER_01: And then I'll okay.
28:21
SPEAKER_01: Oh, okay.
28:22
SPEAKER_01: Um, um, my marriage, uh, um codependency with my children, um, you know, when to push, when to oh not like when relationships, friendships, when when do you extend grace and when do you hold a boundary?
28:36
SPEAKER_01: That's three.
28:38
SPEAKER_01: What about your coaching classes last summer?
28:40
SPEAKER_00: Like doing something before you felt ready.
28:43
SPEAKER_01: Oh, right.
28:44
SPEAKER_01: That's I I avoided that to the very last minute.
28:47
SPEAKER_01: Like they, you know, you could they call for um they call for coaches and I waited until the I didn't I didn't have a choice anymore to be uh to be the um one on the spotlight.
29:01
SPEAKER_01: But yeah, making steps of faith, of um confidence in myself versus uh letting someone else do the do the work for me.
29:12
SPEAKER_01: I'm curious if you have you have a superpower of just doing the hard things.
29:17
SPEAKER_01: I'm curious if there's ever been a you're the X-Men, right?
29:22
SPEAKER_01: Um if there's an example that you have that you're but I still feel afraid.
29:27
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, for sure.
29:29
SPEAKER_00: Like um oh, let's see, how far back can I go?
29:33
SPEAKER_00: Um yeah, I can go super far back.
29:35
SPEAKER_00: But again, I want to say that it felt like survival to me.
29:37
SPEAKER_00: It feels like survival.
29:38
SPEAKER_00: And remember, I was trained, my nervous system was trained to work and to, you know, I don't know, to work.
29:46
SPEAKER_00: So some of the earliest examples, like I had to work for my dad when I was 11, and he um would force me to talk to customers and I did not feel ready.
29:58
SPEAKER_00: But it was like it was either do it or like there was gonna be such a scary consequence.
30:02
SPEAKER_00: So my nervous system has been trained to override my fear and to go for it for a very long time.
30:08
SPEAKER_00: So that's how my nervous system was trained, and it has served me in many ways.
30:13
SPEAKER_00: Now I've had to learn how to reverse that sometimes.
30:17
SPEAKER_00: But um so yeah, I mean, becoming a therapist, like meaning going to grad school and like sitting in a room with a client, right?
30:25
SPEAKER_00: And like I didn't feel ready to sit in a room with a client and help them navigate their stuff as like a I don't know, 22-year-old or before that.
30:34
SPEAKER_00: Uh, you know, I was working for the Department of Children and Families and I was doing child abuse investigations and oh my goodness, like all of that.
30:41
SPEAKER_00: Um becoming a homeopath, like, you know, but it just made it was like it wasn't not an option.
30:47
SPEAKER_00: Um, how about that time where I was like, let's get a Times Square billboard?
30:51
SPEAKER_00: Um, but the things that changed everything, and I'm afraid to do it, yes, I would agree with you.
31:00
SPEAKER_00: Actually, now that you're um asking me this question, the times that I feel the biggest fear are times where I'm going to be witnessed.
31:10
SPEAKER_00: So it's saying yes to that coaching program, saying yes to that retreat, hiring a new therapist.
31:16
SPEAKER_00: It's absolutely hands down.
31:18
SPEAKER_00: And that is up to and including last year when I started doing private yoga with Laura, who did who facilitated our yoga and yoga nija on retreat.
31:25
SPEAKER_00: Oh gosh.
31:26
SPEAKER_00: Because when I am with her every week and I am in my body, my body and everything is on the mat, right?
31:33
SPEAKER_00: Like it's a private session and everything is on the mat.
31:36
SPEAKER_00: So you want to know who sees me in my wobbliest lately?
31:39
SPEAKER_00: It's Laura, right?
31:40
SPEAKER_00: And so it's like yoga therapy.
31:42
SPEAKER_00: And so absolutely every decision I've ever made that is the scariest is the one where I'm gonna be witnessed.
31:49
SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
31:49
SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
31:50
SPEAKER_00: But I'm such a dang workaholic could do it anyway.
31:54
SPEAKER_01: And honestly, like it's the thing that changes everything.
31:57
SPEAKER_01: It's the thing that changes the most.
31:59
SPEAKER_01: I mean, outside of modalities and homeopathy and I'll be out with you.
32:02
SPEAKER_01: But like having people that actually just see you and witness you is is the thing.
32:12
SPEAKER_00: Well, and then when I am witness, then then I get the modality I need most next, right?
32:18
SPEAKER_00: That's the thing.
32:19
SPEAKER_00: It's like if I can't, yeah, ask for help or let myself be seen or supported or understood, then how can I ever get the medicine, whatever the medicine is?
32:29
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
32:30
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
32:31
SPEAKER_00: That's the whole thing right there.
32:33
SPEAKER_00: No, yeah.
32:34
SPEAKER_01: So And I think it's in our culture, I think it's something that is the least celebrated, available, encouraged, yeah.
32:42
SPEAKER_01: And celebrated, yeah.
32:43
SPEAKER_00: And that's I No, we are told to cover every line, every like literally on our faces.
32:50
SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
32:51
SPEAKER_00: Like it's like anything that could be an imperfection, yes, and to compete.
32:54
SPEAKER_00: Well said.
32:55
SPEAKER_01: Women are supposed to compete with each other and not uplift each other.
32:59
SPEAKER_00: Because it lines the the their jets with money, right?
33:05
SPEAKER_00: Like if we're competing with each other, then we're spending more money on their products.
33:10
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
33:10
SPEAKER_01: Isolation.
33:11
SPEAKER_01: It's a literal killer.
33:14
SPEAKER_01: Almost.
33:15
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
33:16
SPEAKER_00: But the Harlow monkey studies that it was vetted, right?
33:19
SPEAKER_00: Like um, this was before monkey studies became illegal or the way that they did that.
33:25
SPEAKER_01: Right.
33:25
SPEAKER_01: But how many of our listeners have ever heard of that?
33:27
SPEAKER_01: Because it's it was Harlow Monkey Studies?
33:30
SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
33:30
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
33:31
SPEAKER_01: So the monkeys.
33:32
SPEAKER_01: You've talked about it.
33:33
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
33:33
SPEAKER_00: The monkeys that were raised by robot wire monkey mothers became failure to thrive monkeys and died.
33:42
SPEAKER_00: The robot, the monk, the baby monkeys that were raised by robot monkeys but with fur and warmth grew up okay.
33:53
SPEAKER_00: Like it had a like a fur mitt over the robot, right?
33:56
SPEAKER_00: So it had warmth and it got fed consistently.
33:59
SPEAKER_00: And then there were m ro monkeys that were raised by robots that had spikes come out intermittently, aka the narcissistic mother.
34:08
SPEAKER_00: And um, and so the monkey would obviously run away, but it would always go back, even if it knew there was a risk to the spikes.
34:15
SPEAKER_00: The monkey always went back, even if it knew it was gonna get injured, which is remarkable.
34:20
SPEAKER_00: That's what we do.
34:21
SPEAKER_00: And then the monkeys that were put in isolation went insane.
34:24
SPEAKER_01: Ding.
34:26
SPEAKER_01: Right.
34:27
SPEAKER_01: How my question would be how many?
34:31
SPEAKER_01: Because like I had never heard of that until you, right?
34:34
SPEAKER_01: And you've talked about through the years, but like how many of our listeners or even like just in general, newscasts, like all everybody, like how known is that that isolation is actually gonna kill you?
34:50
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
34:52
SPEAKER_01: And in the in a world that is so connected with a phone and social media and this app and that app and like picture app and but like is it true connection, you know?
35:04
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, we're so scared of it.
35:07
SPEAKER_00: We're so scared of it.
35:08
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
35:11
SPEAKER_00: Amazing chat.
35:12
SPEAKER_00: If you've been curious about what a call with me is like, now you know we start with three grounding breaths.
35:20
SPEAKER_00: And then we laugh a bit, and then I get to know you, and then we explore, is it really for you or not?
35:25
SPEAKER_00: Right.
35:25
SPEAKER_00: There's no hard sales pitch, there's no pressure.
35:27
SPEAKER_00: It's like, is this, yeah, is this and and also don't deny me my favorite time of year where I get to connect with all of you because it's such a joy.
35:38
SPEAKER_00: I say to everyone, like, we record and then it goes out, but like to know the people that are, I mean, it's sort of unfathomable when you sit and listen when you sit and think about like how many hours, how many times a people choose to listen is it's just uh the amount of gratitude and just I I can't even find my words right now.
36:04
SPEAKER_00: It's wild.
36:05
SPEAKER_00: But I'm so grateful and connecting with you all is my favorite thing.
36:09
SPEAKER_00: And um I don't know, it's a beautiful time of year.
36:13
SPEAKER_00: The link is in the show notes if you want to fill out the job form and jump on a call.
36:17
SPEAKER_00: And in the meantime, we love you so much.
36:19
SPEAKER_00: Peace.