Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / Idaho Student Murders: COPS TARGET WHITE HYUNDAI

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Idaho Student Murders: COPS TARGET WHITE HYUNDAI · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:05
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, breaking news in the search
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Speaker 1: for a killer, a killer that slaughtered four Idahoo University students,
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Speaker 1: we believe in their sleep in the last hours. Police
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Speaker 1: have issued a BOLO be on the lookout for a
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Speaker 1: twenty eleven twenty thirteen Honday I Lantra. Why, I'm Nancy Grace.
0:35
Speaker 1: This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us
0:38
Speaker 1: here at Fox Nation and sirius XM twenty eleven. First
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Speaker 1: of all, take a listen to our friends at k
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Speaker 1: R E M. Moscow PD is saying today they're now
0:46
Speaker 1: looking for a white twenty eleven to twenty thirteen Honda
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Speaker 1: Elantra Police say tips and leads led investigators to look
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Speaker 1: at additional information about the car being in the immediate
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Speaker 1: area of King Street where the murders happened during the
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Speaker 1: early morning hours of November thirteenth. Again, it's a white
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Speaker 1: twenty eleven to twenty thirteen Hondae Elantra Police say the
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Speaker 1: license plate is not known right now, but still this
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Speaker 1: is a significant step in the investigation as investigators have
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Speaker 1: yet to release any information about a suspect or suspects,
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Speaker 1: and this is potentially the first significant piece of evidence
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Speaker 1: they've released publicly so far in their effort to solve
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Speaker 1: this case. Very interesting. This is the first real piece
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Speaker 1: of evidence that the Moscow police are releasing. This must
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Speaker 1: be significant, although we don't know what's going on behind
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Speaker 1: the scenes. In the last hours, cops announcing they are
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Speaker 1: on the hunt for a twenty eleven to thirteen Hunda
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Speaker 1: Elantra white in color tag plates unknown with me and
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Speaker 1: I'll start PANELM. But first I want to go straight
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Speaker 1: out to Stephanie Pogonis joining us. Fox News Digital crime
1:52
Speaker 1: reporter Stephanie, When did this happen and what exactly did
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Speaker 1: they say? Okay, So, police have said that they have
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Speaker 1: received tips and leads that have led them to believe
2:01
Speaker 1: they're looking for this white punday a lentress to dan Now.
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Speaker 1: This vehicle. They believe it's from the twenty thirteen model.
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Speaker 1: What they say that is interesting is that they have
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Speaker 1: seen this vehicle in the immediate area of the King
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Speaker 1: Street crime scene. This came what they say is in
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Speaker 1: the early morning hours of November thirteenth. This is around
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Speaker 1: the time that the victims are believed to have been killed.
2:26
Speaker 1: Officials previously told the public and the media that the
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Speaker 1: victims are believed to have been stabbed between three am
2:33
Speaker 1: and four am. You know, this is one of the many,
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Speaker 1: many reasons that one of the first things you try
2:39
Speaker 1: to do, besides after you secure the crime scene, is
2:43
Speaker 1: try to develop a timeline. As the timeline is wrong,
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Speaker 1: almost everything you do after that is wrong. It takes
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Speaker 1: the whole thing. For instance, and they got the timeline wrong.
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Speaker 1: They're looking for this white punday maybe completely irrelevant. Joining
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Speaker 1: me again and All Star panel, I'm gonna go first
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Speaker 1: to Jonathan T. Gillian, former FBI special Asian, former Navy seal,
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Speaker 1: author of a hit book, Sheep No More, The Art
3:10
Speaker 1: of Awareness and Attack Survival on Amazon. Jonathan, thank you
3:14
Speaker 1: for being with us. A lot of buzzwords I'm sure
3:18
Speaker 1: jumped out and not only me, but you and my
3:21
Speaker 1: expert in forensics Cheryl McCollum, also with me Karin Stark
3:25
Speaker 1: and David Leroy. But interesting, the immediate area of the
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Speaker 1: murder house, the crime scene at the time they believe
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Speaker 1: the murders happened. Now, the only thing that I see
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Speaker 1: there that could have a little leeway is an immediate area.
3:46
Speaker 1: Was it right in front of the house, was it
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Speaker 1: a block away, but I want to hear your analysis. Well,
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Speaker 1: the good thing is, now that they have a vehicle
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Speaker 1: that they're concentrating on, they can also look at the
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Speaker 1: cell towers that are around there, and they may not
4:02
Speaker 1: be able to identify specifically who was in that car,
4:06
Speaker 1: but they can kind of pick out when a cell
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Speaker 1: phone moved to another tower and where eventually those cell
4:13
Speaker 1: phones went, if in fact they had one in that car.
4:17
Speaker 1: And I would think that somebody who has escalated at
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Speaker 1: this point of killing, like everybody else, they probably do
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Speaker 1: have a cell phone, and if they left it in
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Speaker 1: the car, then it would stay there and then left
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Speaker 1: with them. That would actually be almost a better circumstance
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Speaker 1: than if the killer lived nearby and left their cell
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Speaker 1: phone at home and then cell phone had never moved.
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Speaker 1: So if they can combine that car with any type
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Speaker 1: of movement or cell phones around there, and then video footage,
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Speaker 1: I think these are the types of things that technologies
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Speaker 1: that investigators can kind of key in on and start
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Speaker 1: to triangulate the movement of certain people or certain phone
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Speaker 1: or the vehicle to where they can start narrowing who
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Speaker 1: this car belongs to. I think it's very important for
5:06
Speaker 1: them to incorporate all these different things. And I think
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Speaker 1: you saw an example of this type of tracking with
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Speaker 1: the abduction and murder that just happened in Texas a
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Speaker 1: week ago of the seven year old girl. So now
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Speaker 1: there at this point, if it is in fact somebody
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Speaker 1: associated with the killing, like in Texas, they will be
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Speaker 1: able to use the digital evidence to quickly start kind
5:29
Speaker 1: of honing in on potential subject. And it was really interesting,
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Speaker 1: Jonathan Gilliam that you bring up the case of Athena Strand.
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Speaker 1: She is a seven year old little girl that was
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Speaker 1: at home with her stepmother and she and the stepmom
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Speaker 1: had a little fuss, so the stepmom believes she's going
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Speaker 1: back to her room, when in fact she went outside,
5:50
Speaker 1: a FedEx driver came along and got her ended up
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Speaker 1: killing her. Could you explain again for those listening on
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Speaker 1: day one, I suggested a data dump, which is a
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Speaker 1: real pain in the areen, very exhaustive search of who
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Speaker 1: based on a cell tower, the cell phones in that
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Speaker 1: area at that time, that interval of hours, say between
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Speaker 1: two fifty and four thirty am, and it can be
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Speaker 1: done really right down to the block. So if you
6:22
Speaker 1: could explain that and how you would integrate that along
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Speaker 1: with movement of the cell phone and I dating the car.
6:31
Speaker 1: You mentioned video, but Cheryl McCollum and Stephanie begonis I
6:34
Speaker 1: correct me if I'm wrong, But I don't think they've
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Speaker 1: got any ring doorbell or any surmillance video far. I
6:41
Speaker 1: know there were not many cameras around, and it's been
6:44
Speaker 1: a question lately of if there are cameras now were
6:47
Speaker 1: they installed after these attacks happened. We've spoken to neighbors,
6:51
Speaker 1: some of whom had said that they decided to install
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Speaker 1: them after the fact. Were you going to say something
6:56
Speaker 1: Cheryl on that, Yeah, I was just going to say,
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Speaker 1: I believe at some point they do have that car
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Speaker 1: on video, and I think that's how they're tracking the
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Speaker 1: movements of that car. I don't know that they've tricked
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Speaker 1: the movements of the car yet or that they have
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Speaker 1: it on video. I mean, I hope you're right, jump
7:09
Speaker 1: in John. So also with those ring cameras, before I
7:12
Speaker 1: say about the sill Terris, Theo's ring cameras. Most people,
7:16
Speaker 1: I'm guilty of this myself. You get a ring camera
7:19
Speaker 1: and then after the initial trial period goes away, people
7:24
Speaker 1: don't want to pay to have stuff recorded, so they
7:27
Speaker 1: just have the cameras set to alert, and so that's
7:30
Speaker 1: why you don't get a lot of recordings off of
7:33
Speaker 1: these cameras. Also, you know, I worked was part of
7:37
Speaker 1: the two thousand and eight investigation of a guy who
7:39
Speaker 1: wrote a bicycle all over New York and drove up
7:42
Speaker 1: to at three in the morning coincidentally, and drove up
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Speaker 1: to the recruitment center in Times Square, put a pipe
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Speaker 1: bomb down, drove off and blew up the front of
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Speaker 1: the recruitment depot. We've never caught that guy, and that's
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Speaker 1: the most videotape place in the world. So videos won't
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Speaker 1: always show you what you want to see. However, if
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Speaker 1: there are videos and they do show the movement of
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Speaker 1: the car or of a phone, it won't be the car,
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Speaker 1: but it will be of a phone. On these cell
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Speaker 1: towers at that time, then you might be able to
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Speaker 1: maarrow down. And your phones are constantly whether you're using
8:17
Speaker 1: them or not, they are constantly reaching out, so it
8:20
Speaker 1: kills our battery. They're communicating with cell powers, and sometimes
8:24
Speaker 1: you can stay in the same place and they'll be
8:26
Speaker 1: pushed to multiple cell powers. But that also can help
8:31
Speaker 1: because they can kind of triangulate where the phone may be.
8:34
Speaker 1: But as you start to move, especially in a place
8:37
Speaker 1: like Idaho where it's not as populated, you'll have a
8:40
Speaker 1: tremendous amount of cell powers in one place, and then
8:43
Speaker 1: as you get more remote, you're going to have less
8:46
Speaker 1: and less cell powers, so you'll be dumped off to
8:49
Speaker 1: the next one, and then down the road you'll be
8:50
Speaker 1: dumped off to the next one. So that actually becomes
8:54
Speaker 1: not more specific, but you can tell that they're moving
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Speaker 1: in a particular direction. So with the data down which
9:00
Speaker 1: you just described, I think that's a perfect example that
9:04
Speaker 1: they could give these families who were seemed to be
9:08
Speaker 1: very impatient with this, and I understand why. But this
9:11
Speaker 1: is not like the movies. You know, when we have
9:14
Speaker 1: computer screens that they don't make noises and things, and
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Speaker 1: there's not colors all over offses, and evidence doesn't just
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Speaker 1: get processed immediately. Going through these cell powers information. It
9:25
Speaker 1: is labor intensive. You got to get a subpoena to
9:28
Speaker 1: go get the stuff, and then people have to physically
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Speaker 1: go through this stuff and figure it out. Yes, it'll
9:34
Speaker 1: take a long time, which is what I said at
9:35
Speaker 1: the very beginning time stories with Nancy grace for those
9:54
Speaker 1: of you just tuning in in the last hours. Moscow
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Speaker 1: police haven't nounced they are on the search for a
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Speaker 1: white Hyundai a Lentre that is s o P standard
10:06
Speaker 1: operating procedure and finding a vehicle connected to a crime
10:12
Speaker 1: has long been a way of cracking cases. Listen to this.
10:17
Speaker 1: He knew what he was doing, He knew what he
10:19
Speaker 1: was doing exactly, but thank goodness, he made a lot
10:22
Speaker 1: of mistakes parking in the driveway having somebody see him.
10:28
Speaker 1: A neighbor it took this photo out of her window
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Speaker 1: of the suspect's red corner driveway, thinking it might have
10:34
Speaker 1: been stolen and dumped here. It was ten thirty in
10:37
Speaker 1: the morning last Friday, minutes before the Winnox home started burning.
10:41
Speaker 1: The neighbor, who asked not to be named, told me
10:44
Speaker 1: that she saw twenty eight year old Austin Lee Edwards,
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Speaker 1: dressed in a black trench coat and face mask, walking
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Speaker 1: with the fifteen year old who lives in the house.
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Speaker 1: They were getting into the red car. She was trying
10:56
Speaker 1: to mount the words to me, but nothing came out.
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Speaker 1: The neighbor said, I looked down and saw she was barefoot.
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Speaker 1: She was crying a little bit, she didn't try to
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Speaker 1: make a run for it. One person spotting a red
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Speaker 1: vehicle seemingly out of place and seeing a guy in
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Speaker 1: a trench coach leading a barefoot girl to the car.
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Speaker 1: That one car identification saved a triple homicide and the
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Speaker 1: kidnap of a fifteen year old girl taken from her home,
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Speaker 1: her family murdered so the p could rape the girl.
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Speaker 1: She was found safely, and he was apprehended and then
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Speaker 1: shot dead when he opened fire on police. Another well
11:39
Speaker 1: known example is that of Timothy McVeigh, Oklahoma City bomber.
11:45
Speaker 1: Listened to Jim Norman case agent, we found out that
11:49
Speaker 1: an Oklahoma Highway Patrol trooper had made an inquiry on
11:54
Speaker 1: Tim McVeigh within about ninety minutes of the bombing. Hangar
11:59
Speaker 1: had been heading south toward Oklahoma City based on a
12:03
Speaker 1: Highway Patrol dispatcher call for all available troopers to head
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Speaker 1: to Oklahoma City to assist. He had gotten to discontinue.
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Speaker 1: He was about sixty two miles north of Oklahoma City
12:15
Speaker 1: and he turned around in the median on Interstate thirty
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Speaker 1: five and as he's starting to head back north, he's
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Speaker 1: passed by this yellow Mercury Marquee that's missing its real
12:28
Speaker 1: license plate, and so he pulls that car over and
12:32
Speaker 1: the driver gets out of the car and Hanger has
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Speaker 1: to order him to stay by the door of his car.
12:37
Speaker 1: You know. Cheryl McCollum joining me, And I'm going to
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Speaker 1: Cheryl because not only is she's the founder and director
12:43
Speaker 1: of the Cold Case Research Institute. Don't get me wrong,
12:46
Speaker 1: I wh case is not cold, but her job is
12:49
Speaker 1: to sit through forensics and come up with ways to
12:53
Speaker 1: solve cases. Cheryl, I could listen to investigators talk about
12:59
Speaker 1: how they saw murder cases with the identification of a car,
13:05
Speaker 1: and I've done it myself time and time again in court.
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Speaker 1: Absolutely I can listen to that case. Investigator mc McVeigh
13:14
Speaker 1: was one of the worst villains that have ever been
13:16
Speaker 1: put in the jail. He needs me under the jail.
13:19
Speaker 1: And he was caught because he was missing a little
13:21
Speaker 1: piece of a light on his tail light correct ted.
13:25
Speaker 1: Bundy was stopped. Oh you're right, Wait, tell the story, Cheryl.
13:29
Speaker 1: Don't just throw out a name. Tell me about how
13:31
Speaker 1: he was stopped. I love that. I love that. Go ahead,
13:35
Speaker 1: but again, what it gives us, it gives us a
13:37
Speaker 1: name it's not the Ted Bundy story. And I know
13:39
Speaker 1: that I'm leading up to the story that time. It's
13:41
Speaker 1: good that he got stopped running a sign because that
13:44
Speaker 1: gave us a name, It gave us a vehical description,
13:47
Speaker 1: It gave us an address of where he was in
13:51
Speaker 1: his hunt for victims. So what I would do if
13:54
Speaker 1: this was my case right now, I've already pulled it up. Nancy.
13:57
Speaker 1: They have weather camera in Moscow, Idaho. Oh you are
14:00
Speaker 1: so smart. You're absolutely right all that snow. Yes, So
14:05
Speaker 1: Jonathan gilliam is right, there could be video, video footage.
14:09
Speaker 1: You go ahead. Well, that's what I was saying. They're
14:11
Speaker 1: gonna have video of this car, and they're gonna be
14:13
Speaker 1: able to track it's, you know, direction of travel and everything.
14:17
Speaker 1: Because I could look right now at D Street, I
14:19
Speaker 1: could see the whole intersects in the gas station. I'm
14:22
Speaker 1: looking at Plaus River Drive, Lime Street, Uniontown, I can
14:27
Speaker 1: see every bit of it, Sharad Road. These are all public.
14:30
Speaker 1: All they've got to say. You know another thing about that, Cheryl,
14:33
Speaker 1: is that this was the murders occurred on King Road, right.
14:37
Speaker 1: It's a couple of blocks off campus. And I have
14:39
Speaker 1: been dumbfounded by the fact they're seemingly no campus security
14:45
Speaker 1: cameras around that area. Okay, Nancy, Dave le Roy here,
14:49
Speaker 1: let me give you a little content. Good please chop in,
14:51
Speaker 1: hold on, Let me introduce you Dave le Roy, high
14:53
Speaker 1: profile lawyer out of Idaho, former attorney general, former lieutenant governor,
14:58
Speaker 1: former prosecutor, and so forth and so on. I got
15:01
Speaker 1: a whole page of his credentials. Go in, David, and remember, Jonathan,
15:06
Speaker 1: you're not with us as often. Please jump in. Don't
15:09
Speaker 1: be intimidated by Cheryl or Karen or David or Stephanie
15:15
Speaker 1: our old hands. Jump in when you're ready to go ahead,
15:17
Speaker 1: David Leroy, and so you recall it four years ago
15:20
Speaker 1: while campaigning on campus, I was actually at that residence
15:25
Speaker 1: twenty two King Street, and the exact location, the precise
15:29
Speaker 1: area is very significant here too, because I think it
15:33
Speaker 1: underscores how important this car. Maybe even twenty two King
15:37
Speaker 1: Street is halfway up a hill and in an almost
15:42
Speaker 1: a cul de sac type of area where they're even
15:46
Speaker 1: during daytime, would not be a lot of traffic. So
15:50
Speaker 1: for a vehicle to be moving away from or in
15:54
Speaker 1: the area of this almost dead end King Street halfway
15:58
Speaker 1: up a hill off campus, but not in any kind
16:02
Speaker 1: of high traffic area or near an arterial. Maybe even
16:06
Speaker 1: more significant than a typical car moving at four am.
16:10
Speaker 1: David Leroy, I love everything you just said, and I
16:16
Speaker 1: love it so much I want to relive it. Tell
16:19
Speaker 1: me all that one more time. Eleven twenty two King Street.
16:23
Speaker 1: When I was there four years ago, visiting the house
16:27
Speaker 1: was a little bit difficult to get to, hold on
16:30
Speaker 1: to se, hold on to to sex Sydney. While he's talking,
16:33
Speaker 1: keep up Google, Matt, and get me an aerial on
16:36
Speaker 1: eleven twenty two King Street, because I want to see
16:39
Speaker 1: if it's still the same way as David Leroy is recalling. Okay,
16:43
Speaker 1: go ahead, David, when I was at eleven twenty two
16:45
Speaker 1: King Street to three years ago, four years ago, you
16:50
Speaker 1: have to go from the main campus up an area
16:54
Speaker 1: across an athletic field and then turn right to a
16:57
Speaker 1: couple of blocks. Okay, hold on up an air across
17:00
Speaker 1: the athletic field, and then what Then? Then you begin
17:04
Speaker 1: to go up a hill and it's almost a dead
17:08
Speaker 1: end cul de sac where you move into the parking
17:11
Speaker 1: area of eleven twenty two King Street. It is not
17:15
Speaker 1: adjacent to any high traffic area. There's not a lot
17:18
Speaker 1: of arterial type traffic there, so at three am or
17:23
Speaker 1: four am, a car moving in that particular area is
17:28
Speaker 1: going to be far more significant than a car moving
17:31
Speaker 1: someplace else in town. Even at that same unusual hour,
17:36
Speaker 1: even during daylight, there is very little traffic on David,
17:39
Speaker 1: which house is it? Show me which when you're talking about. Oh,
17:42
Speaker 1: I see exactly what you mean. I'm seeing exactly what
17:46
Speaker 1: David Leroy is talking about. There are not any big streets. Oh,
17:52
Speaker 1: Cheryl mccam, you gotta pull this up leading right into
17:54
Speaker 1: where the house is. I see exactly what he's talking about.
17:59
Speaker 1: It's kind of in a circle ish roadway. Yeah, I
18:08
Speaker 1: see what you mean. There's not a lot of traffic
18:10
Speaker 1: going in and out there. So any movement in the
18:13
Speaker 1: middle of the night between three and four, I want
18:15
Speaker 1: to know who saw the car at three and four
18:16
Speaker 1: o'clock in the morning, But any movement of that car
18:20
Speaker 1: near eleven twenty two King, I mean, I would say
18:23
Speaker 1: that's immediately suspicious. So I want to get that person
18:26
Speaker 1: and find out why they were there. And hey, you
18:29
Speaker 1: know Karen start and joining me. Renowned New York psychologists
18:32
Speaker 1: joining us from Manhattan. She's at karen start dot com
18:35
Speaker 1: Karen with a See Karen. I always kind of laugh
18:39
Speaker 1: inside when I'm watching a crime, a pretend crime show.
18:45
Speaker 1: Let's just pretend we're talking about CSI or Monk or something,
18:49
Speaker 1: and a car is parked on the street and they
18:53
Speaker 1: always get a ticket or something at the time of
18:56
Speaker 1: the crime. Always happens, there's something about that car that
19:00
Speaker 1: is noticed by somebody, and that car is always connected
19:04
Speaker 1: to the crime. At the end, for segments, the case
19:08
Speaker 1: is solved, and that includes commercial breaks because it's not
19:11
Speaker 1: that neat and easy, just like gilliam was saying earlier,
19:14
Speaker 1: it's not like that at all. But that has a
19:19
Speaker 1: grain of truth in it. Why are people killers perhaps
19:25
Speaker 1: so arrogant? I mean, it's like they're driving up to
19:30
Speaker 1: McDonald's to get a big mac as curb service. They
19:34
Speaker 1: part right there, do the crime and they leave. What
19:38
Speaker 1: frame of mind is that they're not thinking about those
19:42
Speaker 1: kinds of details? Very lucky, man, I mean, think of that,
19:46
Speaker 1: that whole story would take Bundy. I'm not going through
19:49
Speaker 1: a stop sign and everybody is looking to this guy
19:54
Speaker 1: and that's how they catch him. And I'm thinking about
19:57
Speaker 1: this particular scen and whoever this is a person or
20:03
Speaker 1: two people. Baits did not care about the fact that
20:07
Speaker 1: there were so many people and they took huge chances. Hey,
20:10
Speaker 1: you know what, Elston might be here and start not caring.
20:14
Speaker 1: Arrogance or Johns and Gilliam recklessness. We've heard this as
20:21
Speaker 1: a quote sloppy crime scene was that name? And then
20:25
Speaker 1: the recklessness of potentially having your car parked right outside
20:29
Speaker 1: it shows a certain degree of unpreparedness, not planned, which
20:36
Speaker 1: tells us about the mind of the killer. And positivity
20:39
Speaker 1: is what you're talking about. Yes, Jonathan, Right as I'm
20:42
Speaker 1: looking at this map, I'm looking at the same map
20:44
Speaker 1: that you have. You have to realize that there's that's
20:47
Speaker 1: on a grade heel grade there, but there's multiple places
20:51
Speaker 1: that somebody who was going to think their way through
20:54
Speaker 1: an attack and be a methodical attacker if they were driving,
20:59
Speaker 1: they would part their car in a vicinity just outside
21:02
Speaker 1: of there and walk through the trees and probably not
21:05
Speaker 1: been spotted. Even that area of trees behind where their
21:08
Speaker 1: house is is a known path for people to walk
21:11
Speaker 1: to and from school and up to those fraternity houses
21:15
Speaker 1: above that house. That actually the Stigma Tie house looks
21:19
Speaker 1: right down on their house. So, um, you know, as
21:23
Speaker 1: I'm looking at that, there's so many places that that
21:26
Speaker 1: car could have been parked. And again that's where if
21:29
Speaker 1: there are any cameras on any of those buildings, if
21:32
Speaker 1: there's cell towers anywhere around there, that the phone could
21:36
Speaker 1: be handed off to multiple cell towers, and and that
21:40
Speaker 1: helps in triangulating where that car might have been. But
21:44
Speaker 1: this is a very interesting place because, as Day was
21:49
Speaker 1: explaining there a second ago, the way that closes off
21:52
Speaker 1: in a cul de sac, there's a lot of roads
21:55
Speaker 1: there that do the same thing. There's very there's several
21:59
Speaker 1: roads that stop, and anybody who goes into that is
22:03
Speaker 1: going to have to turn around and go back out.
22:04
Speaker 1: So what I would hope is if they find cameras
22:08
Speaker 1: that they can look earlier in the day and see
22:11
Speaker 1: if that car was there earlier in the day, because
22:15
Speaker 1: there is a chance that if they were actually looking
22:18
Speaker 1: and stalking this neighborhood, that they had been through there before,
22:22
Speaker 1: and I would think that's probably the cage. Icycle Listen
22:24
Speaker 1: to our friends at CBS, there's a major development tonight
22:28
Speaker 1: in the murder of four college students in Idaho. Detectives
22:32
Speaker 1: want to speak to the driver of a white two
22:34
Speaker 1: eleven to twenty thirteen Hyundai Elantra with unknown license plate.
22:39
Speaker 1: They say the occupants of the car may have critical
22:42
Speaker 1: information regarding the case. Also today you can see police
22:45
Speaker 1: began collecting the victim's personal belongings that they say are
22:48
Speaker 1: no longer needed for the investigation. They want to return
22:51
Speaker 1: them to their families. We are learning that much of
22:55
Speaker 1: the personal items in the home are being packed away.
23:00
Speaker 1: The families, of course will want these, but what does
23:03
Speaker 1: that tell us about the progression of the processing of
23:08
Speaker 1: the saints. Take a listen to Chief James fry Moscow. Please. Yeah, tomorrow,
23:15
Speaker 1: me and my command team and other individuals will be
23:18
Speaker 1: going in to box up personal belongings of the people
23:21
Speaker 1: that live there, and we're going to be getting those
23:24
Speaker 1: items back to the families. It's time for us to
23:29
Speaker 1: get those things back that really means something to those
23:32
Speaker 1: families and hopefully to help with some of their healing.
23:35
Speaker 1: We have a lot of investigators investigating, and you know,
23:39
Speaker 1: I'm not tied into the investigation side of it where
23:42
Speaker 1: I'm physically interviewing people, and it's important to me, it's
23:46
Speaker 1: important for us as a department to go in and
23:49
Speaker 1: take care of the families and get the items for
23:52
Speaker 1: them so that they can have some of those back
23:55
Speaker 1: and some of those memories back that are fond memories.
23:58
Speaker 1: And you know, I'm a dad, I understand, I understand,
24:02
Speaker 1: you know the meaning behind some of those things. It
24:04
Speaker 1: may be something that you know, we gave one of
24:06
Speaker 1: our children or something, and we're just trying to bring
24:09
Speaker 1: some of that healing. Stephan Nafagan is joining us Foxing
24:12
Speaker 1: is Digital. What happened well, so, yes, as Chief Fry
24:15
Speaker 1: just said yesterday and even potentially today, they said there's
24:19
Speaker 1: a potential they could be back today, Chief Fry and
24:22
Speaker 1: several other police personnel went into the home and came
24:25
Speaker 1: out with several items that we were told belonged to
24:28
Speaker 1: the victims. I want to stress that this is not
24:31
Speaker 1: every item inside the home or that belonged to these victims,
24:35
Speaker 1: but some that police said they have deemed clear to
24:38
Speaker 1: be removed from the home. The families were not present
24:41
Speaker 1: at the time, at least as far as I can
24:43
Speaker 1: tell from everything I've seen and read, But this was
24:46
Speaker 1: police removing items, packing them up in boxes, and putting
24:49
Speaker 1: them in trucks to haul them elsewhere. What do you
24:52
Speaker 1: make that, Cheryl McCollum. I mean, I think after a month,
24:54
Speaker 1: if you're talking about some jewelry, some clothing, some pictures,
24:58
Speaker 1: maybe some objects that are important of the family to
25:00
Speaker 1: get back because they were a funamental gift or something,
25:03
Speaker 1: I mean it's perfectly appropriate. Yes, I don't read anything
25:06
Speaker 1: into it one way or the other. Extet that they
25:08
Speaker 1: have managed to differentiate between what's important and what's not.
25:12
Speaker 1: Who's jumping in is that, David Lee Roy? Go ahead?
25:15
Speaker 1: I would say that there is, of course some opportunity
25:19
Speaker 1: for the defense in a case when one is brought
25:23
Speaker 1: to say the crime scene was damaged or tampered with.
25:28
Speaker 1: Hopefully they're being extremely careful and scientifically neutral on anything
25:33
Speaker 1: they do when there. I agree with giving the material back,
25:36
Speaker 1: but it does raise a defense possibility for attack. I
25:40
Speaker 1: disagree once the scene has been secured and they have
25:44
Speaker 1: processed it, they should give all of that stuff back.
25:47
Speaker 1: As you know. I mean, of course you're seeing TV right.
25:50
Speaker 1: Once a murder scene has been cleaned and processed, that
25:54
Speaker 1: house will probably be rented out to other people. But
25:58
Speaker 1: what you said is Roy, David Lee Roy, they darn
26:01
Speaker 1: well better make sure they're done before they tamper with
26:04
Speaker 1: that scene. Not only do we understand items are given
26:08
Speaker 1: back to the families as they should be to Karen
26:11
Speaker 1: Stark sentimentally, very very important. It's incredibly important, Mancy, because
26:17
Speaker 1: think about it, when you lose somebody, don't. I don't
26:21
Speaker 1: know about you, but I'm suspecting that when your dad
26:25
Speaker 1: died you kept personal items. I know I did, and
26:29
Speaker 1: I slept it the longest time with my dad's glasses
26:33
Speaker 1: under my pillow. And it's just the way to try
26:36
Speaker 1: and hold on to the person for as long as
26:38
Speaker 1: you do. It's really important. You're right, Karen Stark. And
26:43
Speaker 1: you know that I did about that real quick. Yeah,
26:47
Speaker 1: we move on. This is and I'm always coming from
26:50
Speaker 1: the investigative standpoint right, which unfortunately that it's hard for
26:55
Speaker 1: people to take. Is a very unemotional and neutral standpoint.
26:59
Speaker 1: And I've lost loved ones and I've felt the emotion.
27:02
Speaker 1: But when I'm doing investigation, I shut those things off.
27:06
Speaker 1: And I think, in this case, what bothers me about
27:11
Speaker 1: them stopping what they're doing and taking the time out.
27:14
Speaker 1: They said for a second day, people are going to
27:16
Speaker 1: be in there collecting items to get back to the family.
27:20
Speaker 1: That's investigators that could have been running leads that time
27:24
Speaker 1: in this critical stage that they are stopping and have
27:28
Speaker 1: you to do a critical search because they have to
27:30
Speaker 1: be very careful, as Dave was saying, in what they
27:33
Speaker 1: take and how they take it, otherwise it could cause
27:36
Speaker 1: problems later on. Guys, I know what John and Killian
27:38
Speaker 1: was saying may sound harsh, but how are we to
27:41
Speaker 1: know the killer didn't come into the bedroom and pick
27:45
Speaker 1: up one of the girls brushes or touch her things
27:50
Speaker 1: sitting on her vanity. We don't know, so the point
27:55
Speaker 1: is well taken. Harsh but true. Another face of the
27:59
Speaker 1: investigation we haven't heard a lot about, and it's because
28:03
Speaker 1: suddenly focus was put on Kellegosalvis and her roommate Maddie
28:10
Speaker 1: after Kelley's father came out and stated that he believes
28:13
Speaker 1: Keilly was the intended victim, making the others I guess
28:18
Speaker 1: collateral damage. We don't know that is correct, but we
28:24
Speaker 1: do know that cops are now honing in on the
28:27
Speaker 1: movements of the other two murder victims. Zanna and Ethan
28:32
Speaker 1: take a listen to our friends at ABC police zeroing
28:35
Speaker 1: in on the movements of two of the University of
28:37
Speaker 1: Idaho victims Zannah Carnal and Ethan Chiapan the night they
28:41
Speaker 1: were murdered, looking specifically at the hours between nine pm
28:44
Speaker 1: and one forty five am, when the couple was believed
28:47
Speaker 1: to be at Ethan's fraternity Why are you looking for
28:50
Speaker 1: more information specifically about where Zanna and Ethan were in
28:55
Speaker 1: regards to his fraternity house. That actually seems to be
28:58
Speaker 1: one of the larger areas that we don't have a
29:00
Speaker 1: lot of information in and so being able to locate
29:03
Speaker 1: what they did that night, to maybe who they contacted,
29:05
Speaker 1: maybe any routes that they took home that would be
29:08
Speaker 1: important for the investigation. To Stephanie Paganis Fox Needs Digital
29:11
Speaker 1: investigative reporter, what do you know about their movements that night?
29:16
Speaker 1: I'm talking about Ethan Insiana, right, So there has been
29:21
Speaker 1: four days, if not weeks, questions about where they were.
29:26
Speaker 1: You know, there there's a piece of the puzzle that
29:28
Speaker 1: has is still missing regarding their whereabouts. The police seem
29:32
Speaker 1: to be concerned that these people who might have been
29:36
Speaker 1: with them might have been doing something else and they
29:38
Speaker 1: might therefore be fearful that if they say what they
29:41
Speaker 1: were doing, they might get in trouble for something else,
29:44
Speaker 1: if that makes sense. But police have made it very
29:46
Speaker 1: clear to me and even in their efforts, they're just
29:49
Speaker 1: trying to figure out what happened here. They're hoping that
29:52
Speaker 1: could shed more light on what was going on, paint
29:56
Speaker 1: a bigger picture of what was happening. Now, we do
29:59
Speaker 1: believe that earlier in the night on November twelfth, even
30:02
Speaker 1: actually attended an event, a different Greek life event on
30:07
Speaker 1: campus with his sister. He is a triplet if two
30:11
Speaker 1: other siblings did also attend the University of Idaho, so
30:15
Speaker 1: that does paint a picture. But as far as I know,
30:18
Speaker 1: and it's not I'm not certain on this, but there's
30:21
Speaker 1: a question of whether Zana was with him, and if
30:23
Speaker 1: she wasn't, where was she during that time. That's a
30:26
Speaker 1: really good point. What does this mean, sharl McCollum, Well, again,
30:29
Speaker 1: you're trying to connect these dots. Who did they interact with?
30:32
Speaker 1: You know, when did they leave, where did they go?
30:35
Speaker 1: Because you're talking about from nine o'clock at night till
30:37
Speaker 1: about one forty five, so almost five hours that their
30:42
Speaker 1: movements are unaccounted for, So we don't know if they
30:46
Speaker 1: came in contact with somebody if they went somewhere and
30:49
Speaker 1: you know, purchase something or went to another party. We
30:53
Speaker 1: don't know where they were for at least five hours,
30:55
Speaker 1: and that's something police want to know. And why do
30:58
Speaker 1: you believe it is so sign efficant, Cheryl, Because again,
31:02
Speaker 1: at some point these four people intersected with a killer.
31:06
Speaker 1: Was it before that killer entered the house? They're gonna
31:09
Speaker 1: want to narrow this down. Did Ethan have a problem
31:12
Speaker 1: with somebody? Did they have a you know, a little
31:15
Speaker 1: argument with somebody over something We don't know. We don't
31:18
Speaker 1: know if it's the food truck people, we don't know
31:20
Speaker 1: if it's the Uber driver. There's all of these connections
31:23
Speaker 1: that we've got to check off before we move on.
31:26
Speaker 1: And again, the car is a great start, but you know,
31:30
Speaker 1: you've got two other people that have nothing to do with,
31:33
Speaker 1: you know, the food trucks or Uber driver crime stories.
31:50
Speaker 1: With Nancy Grace, not only are they zeroing in on
31:55
Speaker 1: the movement side Ethan and Zanna, which there are gaps
32:00
Speaker 1: of hours leading up to the murders, we also are
32:05
Speaker 1: getting a little light shed on the claim that Chilly
32:11
Speaker 1: Gonsalves was the intended victim. Take a listen to KNA
32:16
Speaker 1: Whitworth Police also addressing information about the victim's manner of death,
32:20
Speaker 1: after Kayley's father said he learned his daughter's wounds were
32:24
Speaker 1: much more severe than her friends, fearing Kaylee was the target.
32:29
Speaker 1: Please don't be my child, that's the target. Police telling
32:33
Speaker 1: ABC News they have not provided the family with that information.
32:38
Speaker 1: Authorities also telling me they're not attempting to refute what
32:41
Speaker 1: the family is saying. Ultimately, they want to protect the
32:43
Speaker 1: integrity of this investigation. But as time marches on, Steve
32:47
Speaker 1: tells us he's been approached by a private investigator to
32:50
Speaker 1: help solve this case. Okay, I'm trying to decipher what
32:53
Speaker 1: the Moscow police are saying. They're not refuting what Steve
32:57
Speaker 1: Gonsalves is saying that his daughters injuries were much more
33:02
Speaker 1: brutal and severe than the others, indicating she could have
33:05
Speaker 1: been the target. They're not refuting it, but they're also saying,
33:09
Speaker 1: we didn't say that. So what are they saying. David Leroy, Well,
33:13
Speaker 1: we've had a lot of trouble with this whole word
33:16
Speaker 1: targeting right from the outset. Originally it was used to
33:20
Speaker 1: try to calm the public, to suggest that this was
33:23
Speaker 1: a sufficiently targeted homicide for people involved that the rest
33:29
Speaker 1: of the public generally in Moscow and on the campus,
33:32
Speaker 1: should not be concerned. Then we got into trouble with,
33:36
Speaker 1: for instance, a prosecutor saying that it appeared one person
33:39
Speaker 1: was specifically targeted. Then we backed off from that, saying, well,
33:44
Speaker 1: we're not sure that either the residents or any person
33:46
Speaker 1: was targeted. So we've used targeted the word in a
33:50
Speaker 1: couple of different ways to try to generally calm the
33:53
Speaker 1: public and then to try to characterize specific evidence as
33:57
Speaker 1: to either a location or a person. I'm not sure
34:01
Speaker 1: that the word targeting has any use for us anymore.
34:05
Speaker 1: The specifics of who did what to whom and who
34:08
Speaker 1: received is important, and apparently the police are not willing
34:13
Speaker 1: to say, as the dad did, that the wounds on
34:18
Speaker 1: one specific person were more significant to the point of
34:23
Speaker 1: being valid evidence as to who a target was inside
34:28
Speaker 1: the house. I think it's just the police being careful
34:31
Speaker 1: not to compromise the investigation. What do you think, Cheryl,
34:33
Speaker 1: I mean again, Nancy, I think it's really important that
34:36
Speaker 1: we understand what they're trying to connect. They're not just
34:40
Speaker 1: trying to connect these victims with somebody now they're I mean, honestly,
34:45
Speaker 1: they're having a look at the dog. Why does the
34:47
Speaker 1: dog have no evidence? Why was the dog left alive?
34:49
Speaker 1: Why was the dog put in another room? Oh? Interesting
34:53
Speaker 1: that she brought up the dog. Take a list into ABC.
34:56
Speaker 1: Zenna and Ethan stabbed to death less than a block
34:59
Speaker 1: away at Zanna's home, along with Kayley Gunsalvis, and Madison Mogan,
35:03
Speaker 1: who were found on the top floor. Two roommates survived,
35:06
Speaker 1: along with Kayley's dog seen in this TikTok video. Authorities
35:10
Speaker 1: now say the dog was found inside the home, but
35:13
Speaker 1: in a separate room from the victims. How important is
35:17
Speaker 1: the behavior of the dog in your investigation? We don't
35:19
Speaker 1: believe that there was any appearance of four entering into
35:22
Speaker 1: the home and as well, at this time, we have
35:24
Speaker 1: not determined if the dog was inside the residence hearing
35:27
Speaker 1: the murders or not. What we do know is that
35:29
Speaker 1: the dog was inside when officers arrived. The dog did
35:31
Speaker 1: not appear to have any evidence on it. Okay, what
35:34
Speaker 1: if anything? And you conclude from that, Cheryl, Well, again,
35:37
Speaker 1: the dog had no blood, so the dog was not
35:39
Speaker 1: in the bedroom near its owner. The dog did not
35:43
Speaker 1: sympathize with the owner after death. That's very unusual. So
35:47
Speaker 1: it says to me that that dog that loved and
35:49
Speaker 1: cared about her was a nowhere near her, maybe put
35:52
Speaker 1: in another room with the door closed, or put outside
35:55
Speaker 1: the bedroom door, and that door was also closed. To me,
35:57
Speaker 1: it's key that the dog was left alive. That tells
36:01
Speaker 1: you about the psyche of the killer. And again you've
36:05
Speaker 1: got this animal that can't speak to you, but in
36:09
Speaker 1: certain ways certainly can. Are you suggesting that the killer
36:12
Speaker 1: may have put the dog away in a different room.
36:14
Speaker 1: I'm flat out saying that, yes. Absolutely. It reminds me
36:17
Speaker 1: of the case of Molly Tippets who went jogging, and
36:22
Speaker 1: a big factor in the reasoning, the rationale of police
36:26
Speaker 1: about what happened that night was how she left her
36:29
Speaker 1: boyfriend's dog back at the residence. Just thinking through what
36:33
Speaker 1: we're talking about, let me circle back to the car.
36:35
Speaker 1: But Nancy, you remember Nicole Brown. Her dog was frantic.
36:39
Speaker 1: Her dog had blood all over him because he was
36:41
Speaker 1: going back and forth between her. I recall Akita very
36:45
Speaker 1: very well. Yeah, And in that case, police at some
36:50
Speaker 1: point started their timeline based on when neighbors heard the
36:53
Speaker 1: dog howling right in the car. There are ways. There
36:58
Speaker 1: are entire units within metropolitan police stations that are devoted
37:04
Speaker 1: to finding stolen cars. Cars are very unique. The tailwise,
37:11
Speaker 1: the front end, the slope of the rear, or the
37:16
Speaker 1: engine cover changes every one to two to three years.
37:22
Speaker 1: One of the ways that costs can determine the year
37:27
Speaker 1: to make year model of a vehicle. To anyone on
37:31
Speaker 1: the panel that is familiar with that jump in as
37:34
Speaker 1: to how they can identify this is a twenty eleven
37:38
Speaker 1: to twenty thirteen und elantraum. What about it, Gilliam, I mean,
37:43
Speaker 1: this is really not just an art but a science
37:48
Speaker 1: among police departments. Right well, this is you know, actually,
37:52
Speaker 1: to be honest with you, this is probably one of
37:54
Speaker 1: the lesser technically advanced in kind of that old gumshoe
37:58
Speaker 1: police officer, a technique where it's only difference is we
38:02
Speaker 1: have camera cameras out there. You can get a fuzzy
38:05
Speaker 1: picture of a car, and the usually the automotive divisions
38:10
Speaker 1: where they douce automotive primes. That's in the bigger cities.
38:15
Speaker 1: But people who are who know vehicles very well can
38:18
Speaker 1: look at these different pictures and as you said, every
38:23
Speaker 1: couple of years they change something. And if they can
38:26
Speaker 1: just pick up on some of those aspects of the cars,
38:30
Speaker 1: it's pretty much a comparative type of investigating and a
38:35
Speaker 1: knowledge base. And this is the other thing when it
38:37
Speaker 1: comes to any evidence collection or going through the evidence,
38:41
Speaker 1: you have to have people who are experienced in this.
38:44
Speaker 1: And so when you're looking at these types of vehicles,
38:47
Speaker 1: they must have a picture somewhere of a vehicle that
38:52
Speaker 1: they're queuing in on this year. Otherwise, either that or
38:56
Speaker 1: somebody has said that they know somebody who had this
39:00
Speaker 1: year of a vehicle, there's another issue on the vehicle.
39:03
Speaker 1: To Karen start, I recently had a case where a
39:07
Speaker 1: car approached a crime scene at night. The witness was
39:13
Speaker 1: at least thirty forty feet away. She could not see
39:17
Speaker 1: the make of the car. What she did see where
39:20
Speaker 1: the tail lights. It was dark, and she said that
39:24
Speaker 1: they looked like two exclamation points on either side of
39:29
Speaker 1: the car. What it turned out to be is I
39:31
Speaker 1: recall was a Cherokee and in the new in the
39:39
Speaker 1: Cherokeys of that year, there were lights going down the
39:44
Speaker 1: side of the car either side and then at the
39:49
Speaker 1: bottom near the tailpipe. So in her mind it looked
39:53
Speaker 1: like two exclamation points. Now, if you've stolen a car
39:58
Speaker 1: and you're using it for a crime, that's one thing.
40:00
Speaker 1: But there's something about the human psyche. They don't want
40:02
Speaker 1: to get rid of their own car. And if it's
40:06
Speaker 1: Elantra belonged to a material witness or the purp, they
40:11
Speaker 1: may not want to get rid of it. I think
40:13
Speaker 1: I'm really Nancy. Also that it's a decade old vehicle
40:17
Speaker 1: between two eleven twenty thirteen. It sounds to me like
40:22
Speaker 1: it would be the kind of car that a college
40:24
Speaker 1: student would take the campus. And what about that psyche
40:27
Speaker 1: I was asking you about, Karen start, I'm not wanting
40:30
Speaker 1: to get rid of your own car. Well, because you're
40:33
Speaker 1: attached to your carmency, and particularly if you think that
40:36
Speaker 1: there's a possibility to college student you wait such a
40:39
Speaker 1: long time to have a car, and if it's somebody
40:43
Speaker 1: in posts as we've been talking about, they're not even
40:46
Speaker 1: going to think out the fact that this car is
40:49
Speaker 1: something that they should get rid of because they're so
40:52
Speaker 1: intent on keeping their car and having their identity tied
40:56
Speaker 1: to the car. So that's that's a really interesting points.
41:01
Speaker 1: And also the fact that there's a possibility that they're
41:05
Speaker 1: talking about people in the car, not person in the car.
41:09
Speaker 1: So what does that mean. We're there two people that
41:12
Speaker 1: they're talking about. More, what is it that the police
41:16
Speaker 1: are looking for? Guys? The tip line is two zero
41:20
Speaker 1: eight eight eight three seven one eight zero repeat two
41:26
Speaker 1: zero eight eight eight three seven one eight zero. We
41:31
Speaker 1: wait as justice on falls. Nancy Grace signing off goodbye,