Latest / The Midnight Brief: Immigration Practice, Re-designed / The Firm That Banned ChatGPT

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The Firm That Banned ChatGPT · The Midnight Brief: Immigration Practice, Re-designed

• Nadine Navarro: Hello, hello. I have a very special guest today. My guest today is someone I recently met at the AVA Tech Show, and I've come to admire very fast. Tareem Kalam is a managing partner and shareholder at Minsky, McCormick, and Halligan in Chicago, one of the oldest and most respected immigration firms in the country. Founded back in 1975. That's a long time ago. Tareem joined the Tahreem Kalam: Yeah. Nadine Navarro: MMH after graduating law school in 2014, and she earned her way to partner and shareholder quite quickly, becoming one of the youngest immigration lawyers in the United States to do this. She's a super lawyer's rising star since 2017, and really the list of accolades can go on for a while. But the reason I invited Tareem on this show today is what she does behind the legal work. Tareem is a systems thinker and she is the person inside her firm. Pushing for process, technology, driving the change most firms are too comfortable to make. She truly is proof that systems thinking and innovation belong everywhere, even inside the most traditional firms in the country. Tareem, welcome to the show. Tahreem Kalam: Thank you so much, Nadine. That was so kind of you. I'm really excited to be here. Nadine Navarro: tell us a little bit more about what it was like to start as a new associate at a legacy firm and and sort of build your way to where you're at today as a shareholder. how many years before you became shareholder? Tahreem Kalam: Well, so I'm actually about to have my twelve year anniversary at the firm and and as a practitioner next week. So when you're asking how it was starting off, I'm like, gosh, that now sounds like a long time ago. But I don't know, you know, I just met Peggy McCormick essentially, who was everyone's like, if you're interested in immigration, you have to talk to Peggy McCormick. so I met her and we just It wasn't a formal interview or anything like that. It was just a a connection. And I think it was about do are you going to like the work? Are you going to love the work? And that's sort of the philosophy that we've kept at the firm since I've started. we always sort of look for people who care about immigration, like are passionate about immigration and nothing else. So it ca it felt very natural to me. and I think the people we worked with. the staff and their attorneys. At that time the firm was probably less than half the size it is now. but the culture there was just where you could advocate for change and, you know, speak your mind and all work together. So I think even from when I started as a brand new associate, I came on to take on the perm processes for the for the firm. and looking back, it's not even something I've really thought about, but looking back, I'm like, it was a high volume perm perm processes and it was overwhelming to start as a brand new associate. And I'm like, we gotta get this organized. You know, we gotta figure out how to how how am I a one person gonna handle, you know, eighty to a hundred perm as a brand new associate. So I think my wheel started turning sort of right away in terms of How can we make this more systematic, more consistent, and therefore manageable for me? And we still use that process has continued to evolve, but that's where it kind of started, you know. Nadine Navarro: it sounds like it came out of need, which is the best innovation, the best inventions come out a moment of need. So that sounds like it was your case. How do you bring the others along for the change with you? Tahreem Kalam: Yeah, I think that is probably our biggest challenge, right? so we're almost 50 people now and everybody has different tolerance for change. so it's never one size fits all. So I think if you are going to try to implement change in any way within your staff, one it has to come from a trusted source, right? when you're asking people to change. change how they do things, especially if they've done it like you said for, you know, 40 years, in some cases at our firm. and you have to have them participate in the change. So I can't if I was to just go to somebody and say, hey, this is how we're doing things now, I think it'll be a lot more resistance. And we have tried that, right? So it's been a it's been a a learning process. whereas if I say, Okay, I've tried it first, this is how it's working. let's do small groups based on how people learn, and you know, kind of go over the changes and how it's going to help them in their daily work life. I think that has a lot more buy-in. some people are gonna pick it up right away, and other people are gonna take months. so So for those people where it was a lot slower to implement the change, we did more one on one. and that is more time on my part, but I think it's completely worth it. to bring in those efficiencies and make their lives easier. Immigration Nadine Navarro: Of course. Tahreem Kalam: is hard enough right now and stressful enough right now. So any tools that I can give my staff to make their lives easier will allow them to get through this time that we're all in right now. Nadine Navarro: Yeah, and you and I have talked about this change management issue really that you see in firm all the time. almost every big firm I've spoken to has sort of a few pioneers of change inside. Sometimes it's just one person. And then there's always this reluctance for change. Change management is a whole discipline. as I've come to find out, there's experts that specialize in making people change within Tahreem Kalam: Yeah. Nadine Navarro: Companies and corporations, and we've discussed some of the things you could do. One of the things I found useful in my own practice is sort of instead of convincing the staff at large, convincing one person, getting that one person to really adopt it and making them my like my spokesperson to the rest of the staff. Cause often when you're the boss, sure they trust you, but it's also like, the boss is asking us to do more stuff. So when it comes when Tahreem Kalam: No, you're a hundred percent right. Yeah. Nadine Navarro: it comes from like the paralegal with them or or the case manager that's working on the ground with the team, I have found a little bit more success that way. you're doing that as well in your practice. Tahreem Kalam: Yeah, well, you know, this was I think when we first met, this was the thing I was struggling with the most and I did get a lot of advice from you and like one of the things you had said was, you know, get their input and have them part of the change and that really did help. So what I started doing is I started with my own team that I work with on a day to day basis. you know, my associates, my legal assistants, that we work really closely on, you know, in all of our cases. And I sort of s figure out the kinks with them first. And then I go team to team. And that's exactly sort of what happens. Like in what and you know, you clearly you're the expert because I didn't even realize that that's something that we had to do, but it's working, you know. And so I kind of find like the one associate or that legal assistant who can tell the team that they're working with really closely, look how I did this. and that has tremendously helped with our change management. Nadine Navarro: I love that. I love that. It's it's really the small things. I find change management to be such an fascinating field because the advice seems pretty mundane, right? Like very basic, like, just get one person to like it. And you're like, sure, but how do I get fifty Tahreem Kalam: Yeah. Nadine Navarro: people? But it it really does work. and it's the little steps right now with technology. Yeah, it takes months, especially for an organization of you guys' size where you have different departments and it's different Tahreem Kalam: Yeah. Nadine Navarro: things you're trying to automate. but I love to hear that, you know, that is it's working and it's making a dent in your adoption 'cause I know change management really is technology. It's more often a you know, adoption is more often a people issue than a software issue. You know, many times The software that Tahreem Kalam: Uh-huh. Nadine Navarro: another firm adopts quickly, a different firm might have other types of employees that see the pain points differently or that do the work differently. So that software might not be the ideal one for them. which is why Tahreem Kalam: I am Nadine Navarro: I told you to invite their input because like for us at our level, we see the pain point here. but they might see the pain point here, right? They might be doing other things that we don't see. So it's so cool to hear. Sort of like this person's saying Tahreem Kalam: The implementation of like the change management from when we spoke a few months ago to now has exponentially improved just by making these little tweaks. it's been really rewarding to see that within our firm. I will say also you mentioned like the different practice groups we have. So For you know, if other firms are like that that are listening, so I do primarily corporate immigration and I'm trying to tell our EOIR team to make these changes and I was getting a lot of resistance there. And part of that is also because I don't practice EOIR, you know. I don't know their day to day struggles. I mean, that's in immigration, that practice is it's it's very overwhelming right now. so it really did help to have one person see how much it was improving their day-to-day stress and also how it was better benefiting the clients that we were serving. And it has improved that team's willingness to take on these new tools and processes and procedures so much more effective than just me, you know, trying to Ask them to do it. Nadine Navarro: Sounds you sh found your what they call the champion in the department, right? Somebody to champion that change for you. Tahreem Kalam: I know the removal defense side right now, like it is a whole different ball game. but me as like, you know, the partner at the firm who I feel a sense of responsibility for our staff, you know, I want I care about them deeply and I it's I see how much people are struggling every other day. You know, we see posts of people saying that they they need a break, they need to get out of this for their own mental health and so the tools and processes and procedures that I try I try to think of it in that way first. Like this is to benefit you in a time that's so challenging for all of us. Like let's use Nadine Navarro: Yeah, that's a Tahreem Kalam: the tools that'll make our lives easier. Nadine Navarro: For sure. And on that note, like with immigration being constantly changing, how do you keep track of trends, patterns, policy shifts? Do you guys use any tech for that or like a light or I Tahreem Kalam: Yeah. Nadine Navarro: I'm always curious to see how everybody is coping. Tahreem Kalam: Yeah. We are, I mean, we're all members of Ayla. so that resource, of course, you know, Ayla is pretty good about putting out changes quickly. but also in a world of social media, you know, in immigration, LinkedIn, Facebook groups, the information gets shared really quickly. Our firm, we're we're fully a Microsoft three sixty-five firm. And we use Teams extensively, extensively, every day, all day. so we've made it in a way where everybody I think is really comfortable sharing updates. we have it pretty organized in terms of these are where the government updates go, this is the attorneys channel, things like that. So as soon as we do see something, someone will post it. and then we actually have two standing weekly meetings. as soon as this administration we knew that the administration was going to change we proactively set up a Monday morning meeting I think everyone in immigration knows a lot of news comes out Fridays, Friday night. So Nadine Navarro: Fighting. The dreaded fright. Tahreem Kalam: from experience from the last the first term, we proactively set up a firm-wide 30-minute Monday morning meeting, 9:30 to 10. We have those every week and we have an attorney who is basically on rotation. To give the updates from the week to the whole firm. and that has really, really kept us in sync with all the changes that are happening. We have all the attorneys on it, admin team on it, legal assistants on it, and it is a time where legal assistants will say, Hey, this week I'm getting this question over and over and over again. so what it allows the attorneys to do then is sort of give you know it allows us to know all right this is something we need to come up with an article on or a post on because this is something we're getting a lot of questions on. So instead of reinventing the same answer every time, you can give them this res internal resource that they can trust. So that has been a really great way that we have been able to stay on top of these changes. And then we also have a standing attorney meeting. once a week as well, where we sort of get into a lot more of the substantive question answers. How are we as a firm going to address this AOS memo that was released by USCIS? Right. So it allows everybody to stay on the same page and it allows us to give a consistent, trusted message to our whole staff and then the clients we're serving. Nadine Navarro: Th those are great tips. I to do a weekly, midweek usually meeting with my team just to catch up on everything and I think that is incredibly helpful. I've seen some people also do all kinds of cool stuff with AI to keep track of these trends. like automated bulletins sent to everybody's email and things like that. So it's always cool to hear what all everyone's doing to stay sane and cope with all the crazy amount of Friday memos. so from where you sit, like where what's been actually useful for you about AI in legal right now? Since this is a AI podcast, I wanna get into like what Do you think AI is most helpful for in legal right now as a stands, versus what is kind of overhyped? I know that a lot of podcast listeners are thinking, you know, there's a whole lot of stuff to look into out there. There's so many AI tools. Like you go to a conference and it used to be like five or ten AI. things there and now it's like eighty of the hundred and forty booths Tahreem Kalam: I hope it didn't say I Nadine Navarro: and you're like, my gosh, I don't have time to check all of this Tahreem Kalam: Yeah. Nadine Navarro: out. Like for me, I Don't get tired of talking about the email plugins, that just automatically like check the email auto draft and and it's there for you. But what about you? What are some of those tools you can use? Tahreem Kalam: you'll have to tell me about that. I love this question. and I cut me off if I don't stop talking about it. But okay, in terms of what is hyped, quite honestly, nothing. I don't think anything is overhyped in AI because this is such a evolving space for most of us lay people, I think. that being said, I think that it is getting oversaturated as well, right? So we are now at the point where every other day it's like, hey, this is a new tool to do your H1Bs, or hey, this is a new tool to do your emails. and it's kind of constant. so now it's like We've had like five different people be like, let's automate your H1P process, right? So how it is overwhelming. So the way I kind of think of it is slow down. Everything, do everything purposefully, and you don't have to run it race into it, but also you can't ignore it. So I think in immigration specifically, immigration firms are at sort of a crossroad right now. And there are those of us who are adopting AI, and then there's those of us who are not. and I know some people maybe the approach can be, it's so busy, immigration is so overwhelming, I don't have time to look into all this and decide all this, and I think that's a mistake. Because I think two years down the road, five years down the road, they're gonna look back and realize. How far ahead the firms that did implement these AI or various technologies are there's gonna be a huge gap there, I think, in that industry, in with an immigration. and the firms that did adopt AI and those tools are gonna be better serving their clients than the ones who didn't. On the opposite side, there's gonna be firms that over-rely on AI. And I think. People need to find that middle ground. we are attorneys, we are law firms. if you use AI to replace everything, I think that's also not gonna last or work. If you don't use AI or at all, I don't think that's gonna work. So the big thing is you find that balance, okay? And the way you find that balance is what are pick three to five points in your practice where it either it feels like a pain point. What is something you're doing repetitively all the time? what is something that you feel like is a bottleneck? what is the part that's holding you back? you know that's taking longer than it should. Identify those three to five things. I would say if you haven't done any AI, just pick one thing, pick two things. and maybe that is you know I don't know, email. like you can't say on top of your email. I know that's common for a lot of practitioners. there are email tools out there. and it sounds like Nadine, you know, you advocate for one. but there's a lot of those, so maybe you start with that. Okay. Nadine Navarro: all of them work pretty much the same. All of them I think are fantastic. but yeah. Tahreem Kalam: Yeah. So it's like it's always great if you know somebody who's using one. and then you know, set up those demos. So maybe set up three demos with people with a vendor who does the email drafting for you or organization for you. if that's overwhelming, then think of legal drafting. I think the single most effective tool in our firm right now. We honestly we use two main AI and that's it. so we don't overdo it. and confidentiality is really, really important to us as well. So I'm very, very conservative in terms of what I'm going to let in into our enterprise. but like I mentioned, because we are a Microsoft 365 firm, they already have our data. And within Microsoft 365, there is AI, there's co pilot. and I have to give Copilot a shout out because that is where my AI journey started. the very first ABA tech show I went to, Copilot was kind of really just coming out three years ago where it was come going more mainstream. And I left that tech show. I was like, this thing is amazing. And I went and implemented it literally that day for myself. and you know, it was okay, but going from nothing to something. was quite exciting. And in three years, Copilot has I mean it's it's not Claude or Chat GPT, but it has had significant impact at our firm in so many ways. transcriptions, note taking. I think that's an easy one people can start with. So we use Copilot for that. But all of us had client meetings. All of us do you know consultations. and then what are you physically taking those notes still? how are you, you know, responding to how are you sending the the summary email to them afterwards? you know, that's a lot of time that you are doing something manually that can easily be automated. I would just say, of course, you know, use something secure so that you're attorney client privilege is not in jeopardy. But we no longer do that manual note taking in any way. And that not only has helped us in terms of time saving, but that client relationship. So that initial meeting we have with the client now, we're not off to the side typing on our keyboard. We're not like writing, taking notes. We are engaged fully with our clients. And I think that helps us also not miss things. you know, when you're fully engaged, we ask better questions. We, you know, there there's better better trust established. the note-taking is actually our first automation. I don't know if we want to start getting into that, but like it's really that co-pilot is where I my firm started with AI. And then we kind of just was like coming up with different ideas of how we can continue to expand that. And it has pretty much reworked our entire intake process at this point from that automating our note taking. so now from note taking all the way to agreement sending is used to be a separate manual process with different people, a lot of bottleneck, and now it's one of the automations I'm very proud of creating at the firm. So Nadine Navarro: That's awesome that you started a co-pilot because it's it's sort of, you know, where you're already at. I I'm a Google shop, so we have Gemini inside Gmail. It's automatically in your meetings. So that's such an easy introduction to AI. And pretty much every lawyer is either a Google shop or a Microsoft shop. So right there you automatically have all of these tools that if you're not trying them Why not, right? Because if even for confidentiality issues, which I know a lot of attorneys are, well, I don't want them to have my information, it's already inside where all your information Tahreem Kalam: no, exactly. Nadine Navarro: lives. So it could sort of reduces that, you know, trust barrier for you. So I I love that. And I myself am a big clot advocate these days. I started with open AI. And we've we've sort of you we've used all kinds of LMs at the back end of drafty AI, in starting with OpenAI when that API first opened in twenty twenty two. And Tahreem Kalam: Mm. Nadine Navarro: now Claude and Anthropic and we've tested Gemini co work, like they are all fantastic and it's crazy to see, like if you started using it two years ago, what it could do now. It's so Tahreem Kalam: Yeah. Yeah. The rate of like how much it improves like week to week is yeah, it's tremendous. Nadine Navarro: Yeah. Yeah. A lot of people though still talk about, you know, losing the personal touch with clients or, you know, AI in that way. what are your Tahreem Kalam: Yeah. Nadine Navarro: thoughts on that? And like what are some tasks you never use AI for? Tahreem Kalam: I think it comes back to balance again. It's all about the balance. I think sometimes people think AI is all or nothing. It's not, it's a tool, it's a tool in your practice. if you overly use AI, you're gonna lose that client touch. but so I think you have to flip it. Where what are things you're doing now that's affecting your, you know, the client, the the personal human touch. So what I had mentioned about the note taking, we have a greater connection with our clients now because of AI taking notes for us so we can have that stronger connection. we Still, you know, there are things where people will do like automatic intakes and automatic reception or AI reception and bots. That's something that I've never wanted to do. so for example, with reception, that is sort of the first line of communication that a client has when they call us. and I want that to be a real person. this is somebody who's Our receptionists have been people who are with our firm for many years. Sometimes they go on to become legal assistants. But the point is that they know our firm, they know our attorneys, they know our legal assistants, and then they know our clients. So that's like one example of where I've personally drawn the line for our firm that I want the voice of our firm to be somebody that clients always speak to. And she knows them and they know her. We have a few receptionists, so but they are fully integrated with our staff. so you know, I think you have to sort of find your identity as a firm in terms of what's important to you, what type of firm do you want to be, and create those boundaries. so many firms use outsource, you know, reception or use bots, and that's perfectly okay because they probably can then save that time in another way where they can have the client connection. So it requires sitting down and purposely, purposefully thinking about what kind of firm do you want to be, what kind of practitioner do you want to be. And then how can these tools help you get there? Nadine Navarro: I love that. I love that. And is there any recommended books, social media pages, conferences, anywhere you you know, read about AI or learn about the stuff that you Tahreem Kalam: Yeah. Nadine Navarro: wanna give our listeners. I know people are always asking where can I learn more about this stuff? And I I hate to say it but like AI. Just ask Claude or ask Chad U D. I'm trying to learn, right? That's usually what I say. People laugh, but is there any resource that you could recommend? Tahreem Kalam: Yeah, I think from personal experience, and I think you and I spoke about this at the most recent ABA Tech Show, is that there is such a small handful of immigration lawyers that go to the ABA Tech Show. But if you're starting off, you can learn so much by going there. And I think that's really what spiked my passion and interest. And the immigration practitioners and vendors who were at the ABA Tech Show, what I've learned just in those communications with that group of people has been beyond anything I can say I've learned from you know any other resources. So going to a tech focused conference in the legal world I think is very powerful. there's always there's also the Ala Fall conference that focuses on tech. it was my first year attending that this year. And those two for me personally were the single most useful resources. I would say that part of it was because I met you and I met a lot of other, you know, actual experts in the field versus people who are just passionate. about it like I am. but just having those conversations with someone who is an expert, paying for their time, I think is worth it. and I think that's where you're going to get the most knowledge. and then but you know, those are costs, those are time, conferences, paying s an expert. So other than that, I would think you two. it's not something I personally have Done so much for me, like I just I just you know, added clock, I just added chat GPT and I just started playing around with it and trying it out and then seeing like wow, this is I can use this for all sorts of things. It doesn't even have to be for your practice in the legal way, you know, use it you anything that you think you could automate or do faster or do less repetitively, just Download them. I think GPT is like twenty dollars a month. for you know, it's it's not that expensive. You can try it for a month and see how it cut you know, you connect with it or use it. but you have to put in the effort, you know. Nadine Navarro: Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. I one thing I've been using Chat GPT for recently has been of all things design. You could take a picture, like, I wanna design this like room in my house or this corner. This is what it looks like. I want it to have this vibe. Give me the Tahreem Kalam: Yeah. Nadine Navarro: picture back but with the decor of like, you know, your your Tahreem Kalam: Maybe I just did that for my backyard. And we literally have we literally Nadine Navarro: No way, I didn't want to. Tahreem Kalam: have a team outside right now based off the AI rendering, putting it into place. Nadine Navarro: It's so good. So I love your Tahreem Kalam: Yeah. Nadine Navarro: tip that just get in there. it's what I like to say too. And Chat GPT even have like a free Chat GPT, Claude, Perplexity, all of them have a free tier two. Tahreem Kalam: Yeah. Nadine Navarro: it doesn't necessarily like protect information as much. So definitely heads up on that. But you can always try it on silly things like making pictures or or having conversations Tahreem Kalam: Yeah. I mean Nadine Navarro: and learning how to use it for free, which is really great. Tahreem Kalam: I think one thing when people talk about AI in the legal world, com we gotta talk about confidentiality and trainings, right? I think people do yes, use it, but be responsible as practitioners, right? So the very first thing I did was I learned it myself before opening it up slowly to other people in our firm. And then I made guidelines. I immediately updated our retainer agreements, like, hey, we are using AI. So that's what I mean by there are steps and you have to take it slow. You can't just suddenly be like, I have a Claude account. Let me give him, you know, all my clients' documents and have it drafted for me. That's that's not responsible. so you have to really slow down. you have to know what you're using responsibly, if you're going to be using it in a legal way. So, for example, we allow our staff to have Copilot, we everybody has copilot at our firm. and legal drafting, we have that, but chat GPT is banned, Claude is banned, except for me in terms of practice management. So I don't use those outside open AI tools for legal work. I but I do use them for practice management and it has been tremendous for me for practice management, the stuff that it will create. and has done but I didn't get there overnight, you know. I have been using this now for three years and and I I can't stop. I I love it so much. It's such a passion. yeah. Nadine Navarro: It's amazing. It's amazing. And I love that you mentioned the engagement letter and changing that, adding information in there. I even added on mine t like warnings to the client on their personal use of AI because after that Hepner case, now you're Tahreem Kalam: Yes. Nadine Navarro: looking at if my client is out there talking to AI about his case and granted I'm not a litigation practice, so I'm I'm a little less worried about that. But if you're worried about your information on your case getting subpoena, I think as immigration lawyers is an interesting time because, you know, we really need to be more like the PI lawyers that are on top of like, don't post this, don't chat on the internet, don't Google these things, right? Because they can all come back to bite you. And now with that case, which was about Claude, right? Hefner was about a client who used Claude and told all of its case details and somehow it ended up getting subpoenaed and used in the trial. there's no protection. Tahreem Kalam: Yeah, exactly. but I love it for personal things and for practice management. I had it redo all of our engagement letters. so now they're all like very user friendly, pretty. They you know they don't look as outdated. Nadine Navarro: the fact that you mentioned you have some tools banned. I think it's great and very necessary right now to have an AI use policy for your firm because, you know, let's be real, everybody, I mean especially the younger people in the firm, they're gonna be using Chat GPT or Cloud or whatever. Whether you tell them or not, so you kinda have to tell them and give them that container for them to use AI safely, right? Like you allow Copilot, you have these tools, we do not allow these tools. So it's written and said, these are the things that you know we we're warning you not to do. And I think a lot of firms just gonna Tahreem Kalam: Exactly. Find the balance. Nadine Navarro: assume that people are not putting client information out there, but unless you have a used policy like that for AI, you really don't know what your staff things about what they can or can't do or how they're even using AI. And to that note, we have an AI use policy, a sample one that I actually published on the drafty blog website. So if anybody listening wants something to start from, we have that one there. You can easily copy it and edit it for your firm or you know just use it as is. It's very much like what you're talking about, like what tools do we use here, what tools Do we not use here where does client information never go? And sort of those things need to be said out loud. But yeah. Tahreem Kalam: Yeah. And I think for a firm our size, and for so many different practice areas within our firm, like just for people listening, it's almost fifty of us now and we do fully just immigration, but like we have our practice areas, we have our employment practice area, our EOIR, removal defense, humanitarian and family base. And like I mentioned, you know, everybody has different needs, different expertise, and different you know, tolerances for change. So I can't sit there and monitor everybody every day of how they need to use it or do use it. So I what I can do is give everybody tools. that I n that I have already you know used and trust and have learned and then show people how to use them responsibly. but I think again the all or nothing, you do too much of it, you give everybody just here, go ahead, use it, you don't tell them anything or you don't use it at all, there's a lot more potential for it to be misused. Nadine Navarro: I know we could talk for two more hours on this, so Tahreem Kalam: I love you. Nadine Navarro: we're gonna have to cut it off. thank you so much for being with us. I appreciate your time. Tahreem Kalam: Thank you so much for having me, Nadine. I really appreciate it.