Latest / Startup Dad / This Working Mom and Stay-At-Home Dad Flipped The Script on Parenting | Amy and Chris Winther (Parents of 3, Square, Stay-at-home Dad)
Transcript
- [00:00:00] Amy Winther: there's the work that it takes to run a household and take care of kids, and there's work it takes to do a full-time job. And then we layer on, as a society, these genders onto those typically. And that's our starting base. And so I think there's all these assumptions about gender playing into it. [00:00:16] Chris Winther: That was always in my head that I would be the working parent, and she would step back and stay home. So I think I just hadn't really contemplated the idea that I could stay home. [00:00:24] Adam Fishman: Welcome to Startup Dad, the podcast where we dive deep into the lives of dads who are also leaders in the world of startups and business. I'm your host, Adam Fishman. Typically, I talk to dads who work in tech, but today I had a special conversation with husband and wife team Amy and Chris Winther. Amy is the head of product design for core products at Square, and Chris is a stay at home dad. [00:00:51] Adam Fishman: The primary parent for their three kids. I was curious how they came to this arrangement to buck the traditional gender norms, the circumstances that led to this decision, how they decided it together and why. Originally, Amy thought she'd be the one to stay at home with the kids despite an accelerating career. [00:01:09] Adam Fishman: We also discussed whether any power dynamics exist in their household as a result of this, how Chris feels about being the only dad in a sea of stay at home moms and nannies at the playground, the most common incorrect assumptions that people make about their roles and solving the notorious problem. [00:01:26] Adam Fishman: Where school, daycare, doctor's offices, and more tend to call mom first. We ended with their process for handling communication and alignment, how they operate as a team, and why they believe in working backwards from their end goals as a family. If you're curious about how they've pushed back on the traditional gendered parenting arrangement, you don't want to miss this episode. [00:01:49] Adam Fishman: If you like what you hear, please subscribe to startup ad on YouTube or Spotify, so you'd never miss an episode. You'll find it everywhere you get your podcasts. [00:01:58] Adam Fishman: Welcome Amy and Chris Winther to startup Dad. pleasure to have you both here with me. It's a rare treat to have a power couple on the show. [00:02:08] Chris Winther: Yeah, [00:02:09] Amy Winther: We're happy to be here. [00:02:10] Adam Fishman: Amy, I've also have to say, and we will link to this in the show notes, but I've been very into your substack motherboard as of lately. I've read all the articles, and a special shout out to Justin Ferris for introducing the two of us, what seems like an eternity ago, but was not that long ago. [00:02:26] Adam Fishman: So, [00:02:27] Amy Winther: Well, thanks for reading. [00:02:28] Adam Fishman: yeah, everybody should check out motherboard. It's great. Especially moms, working moms. okay, so I'm super excited about this conversation because it is real treat to talk to a couple that has kind of flipped the script on the traditional gender norms when it comes to work and parenting. [00:02:46] Adam Fishman: And so, You two, do have what I would describe as not the traditional parenting responsibilities. Amy, you are full-time working, you know, outside the home. I'm sure that there is some work from home aspect as well and Chris, you are a stay at home dad. or rather you work inside the home with, uh, with the kids. [00:03:08] Adam Fishman: and you've got three kids, which is, uh, 50% more children than I have. So I'm just tired thinking about that. [00:03:14] Adam Fishman: but I want to go back in time to this decision that the two of you made around work and primary parent and all of that stuff. Amy, you've written a little bit about this on your, um, on your substack, but what was the sort of moment in time when the two of you realized that like what we were doing. [00:03:36] Adam Fishman: Is not working and our family needs a different setup or structure or, different kind of parental responsibilities. [00:03:44] Amy Winther: There was kind of a, backdrop of things that were simmering and then a specific moment. So I would say some of the things that were simmering were, we were both working. We had just had our first kid, Henry, I was working downtown. He was working, about 40 minute drive. [00:03:59] Amy Winther: And so there was a lot of commute time, a lot of time away from the baby, and we were wrestling with the pace of life. all of a sudden we were just finding ourselves out of alignment with how we wanted to be spending our time. And that had been simmering slowly over time. Just the amount of time it took to cook meals and play with the kid and all of that, it wasn't how we wanted it to be. [00:04:21] Amy Winther: I was also struggling to keep up at work while also. You know, needing to pump and do all the meetings. It was very in-person heavy. So I was struggling emotionally, mentally to balance it all. And then the third aspect was just childcare. I mean, nobody had really prepped us for childcare being an ongoing thing. [00:04:40] Amy Winther: You had to figure out, I thought it was just a one in time decision. We'll have a nanny share. Done. Never have to think about it again. No, we had nannies, canceled before they even started the gig. We, we ended up, and so this all leads us to the moment in time, which is, we were on our third nanny in this nanny share. [00:04:58] Amy Winther: The family we were with had a teacher and so they weren't needing care over the summer. And I think I want to say it was like a Tuesday night or something and we need care tomorrow. And we were just kind of at the end of like, we don't want to have to spend another day rapidly figuring out childcare for the following week. And we just kind of had this deep knowing that this is not working, our setup is not working, this is not how we're wanting to spend our daily life figuring out all of the different things we have to figure out a. [00:05:27] Amy Winther: different plan [00:05:28] Adam Fishman: Yeah. So what, what would you, Chris, if you were to like, go back in time, how would you describe what you were feeling collectively in this moment? [00:05:36] Chris Winther: the big thing that strikes out to me about that time is just The kind of rushed feeling of everything, of like, the mornings were rushed. We have to go out, we have to get the baby here, we have to get the baby there. We, at the end of the day, it's like, I gotta get home. We got the nannies end at five 30 or whatever, we gotta get home. [00:05:51] Chris Winther: Or, Amy's gotta stay late at work, like I have to get home. so it was just that feeling of being rushed all the time, which I, that's one of, one of my pet peeves. I just don't like being rushed. and I think what helped us, like Amy said, it all kind of built and then crystallized in this moment, was I had been at the same place working, for nine years. [00:06:10] Chris Winther: And while I, I kind of liked my job, it was like I had a very clear path of like, I knew what the next 20 years were gonna be like. You know, I was doing personal financial planning, I was buying into a practice. Uh, I had a good path, but it was kind of like, at this point I was like, you know what? This isn't really what I want to do, and here's a chance to kind of. My, and give this a try, and hopefully solve two problems at once. [00:06:33] Chris Winther: that was kind of my feeling. [00:06:35] Adam Fishman: Yeah. I wanted to just mention something that the two of you, like sort of collectively talked about with this like chaotic childcare where you're like on your third nanny and I think, I just had this conversation with somebody last night where they were like, oh yeah, my daycare center just emailed everyone and said. [00:06:52] Adam Fishman: We're shutting down on Friday and it's a Tuesday, you know? And so, like, I found also as a parent, like that is far more common. When it happens to you, it's like devastating. And you're like, what are we gonna do? just like we're already drowning. And then like, somebody throws like a 50 pound weight on top of you. [00:07:10] Adam Fishman: but it's so common, right? Like we probably all have friends who have gone through this. Like, childcare is finicky and like finding good care options is like, a treadmill, right? Like it's wild. [00:07:23] Chris Winther: Yeah. And then the [00:07:23] Chris Winther: idea of having the nanny, like it all sounds so great, and then you realize, wait a minute, now I'm, I'm an employer. Like I have an employee and like sick time and Oh yeah, the nanny like, also might get sick and it's like, oh my gosh, I didn't even think about all these things. [00:07:36] Amy Winther: I remember it was so viscerally that night, just feeling the weight of it that night. I don't, I feel like I was up all night thinking we need a solution tomorrow. I mean, I think. In retrospect, there's, you know, a tendency to think, oh, it was this long belabor decision of us, you know, doing this switch. [00:07:56] Amy Winther: No. It was like, we needed something tomorrow. Let's do this. You don't like your job. I like my job. We need solution. You're willing to be home. Boom. Done. [00:08:04] Amy Winther: You know, a lot that actually happened afterwards to figure out how do we communicate this to people? How do we handle Chris's transition out of work? [00:08:13] Amy Winther: All of those things. But the actual decision, it was like maybe an hour conversation. [00:08:18] Adam Fishman: Yeah. You're doing it amongst like the fog of war too. You're like, uhoh, we've gotta like go and, you know, work's not gonna stop. You know, I, I mean, for all of us that have been in a professional setting, like. I didn't have an appreciation when I was younger for people's childcare woes, but like, it's hugely disruptive to a regular, like nine to five or later kind of job. [00:08:42] Adam Fishman: So, Amy, one of the things that you wrote about, when you did this sort of like, interview with Chris, which I thought was really cute, by the way. I love that. so thank you. It was a great two-parter on your substack. you talked about you know, thinking that hey, someone probably will need to be a stay-at-home parent. [00:08:59] Adam Fishman: It's maybe a thing that will happen in our life. but you were sort of simultaneously like, assumed that you would be the one to do that. and then also were devastated about the idea of like having to step back from a job that you really loved and like a career that was like on an upward up escalator as I like to say. [00:09:16] Adam Fishman: And this is kind of like despite Amy, I think you also mentioned that your dad was a stay-at-home dad for a little while when you were, when you were growing up. So what do you think it was that sort of made you assume that you would originally be the person that would be a stay-at-home parent? [00:09:32] Amy Winther: There's a few things that went into that. Growing up, I had a stay at home mom as well. I mean, we could do a whole podcast on my parents and their family decisions. 'cause I did some really cool, um, unconventional stuff. but at the heart of it, it's, you know, my mom was the stay at home person primarily. [00:09:50] Amy Winther: And most, if not, all people in my community growing up had a stay-at-home mom. So that was, I think going into it, just what set the norm and the standard for me. And I also love kids and I love. taking care of them. I love being with them. I love doing, you know, it's like, I would love to be a trad wife and a CEO. [00:10:10] Amy Winther: Like, why do I have to pick kind of that feeling? Like, and so I, I, there's just a part of me that's like, yes, I would love to do that too. And that was the conversations and the like, agreement that Chris and I had going into marriage even was like, I, this is what I want to do. I want to be the stay-at-home mom. so let's set up your career and that's why he is buying into the business. Let's have that set up for longevity and this will be great. So it really wasn't until that moment, happened that I realized the depth of my passion for my career. And it wasn't until the rubber hit the road that I realized, oh wow, what I thought I wanted. [00:10:46] Amy Winther: And the actuality of going through with that is at odds. So, looking back now, I will say, even just yesterday I was talking with someone who had a different setup at the same, uh, we were reconnecting. We both worked at Zillow and she had picked a daycare that was down the street from Zillow [00:11:05] Amy Winther: so that she could go and see her child throughout the day. And I think looking back there probably were a lot of different paths we could have gone to, to get to that balance of me being with my kids and working. maybe because of my dad staying home, this was a path I was familiar with that could get us there. But looking back, I think there were other paths. Just nobody was talking about it I just had to like figure it out on my own. And this felt, felt like the most obvious and also played to our strengths as well. [00:11:34] Amy Winther: I think there's also societal norms too. [00:11:36] Amy Winther: usually the mom is the one staying home, so I really just felt both this simultaneous responsibility of this is what I had agreed to in the past. This is what should happen. I should be the one staying home and then grappling with attention of, but this is not really what I want either. [00:11:52] Adam Fishman: Yeah. [00:11:53] Adam Fishman: and Chris, you, I think, didn't originally believe that you were the stay at home dad type. and I'm wondering like, what was the hardest thing for you to kind of do, to come to terms with that need in your household or like accept the role of taking on the, the primary caregiver at home? [00:12:15] Chris Winther: I think a lot of it was in that initial conversation we had, um, Amy kind of mentioned it before we got married. We had some serious conversations about, yeah, how do we want to live our life? And one of them was, Amy had said she wanted to stay home. And that was how I grew up was my mom stayed home until I was older. And so that was always in my head that I would be the working parent, and she would eventually, she would step back and stay home. So I think I just hadn't really contemplated the idea that I could stay home. I didn't think it was an option. [00:12:44] Chris Winther: but then the hardest part for accepting it for me, I think is just, you are losing a little part of yourself, I suppose. [00:12:50] Chris Winther: Like the kind of the person I was when I was at work. It's like that's kind of no longer gone as we were, as we were setting up for this podcast. And I was like, get in the computer already. And I was like, oh man, Amy does this every day. And I'm like, trying to figure out my microphone. I'm like, I don't do this ever. Um, but so I do feel like, like I [00:13:05] Chris Winther: had to give up a little. [00:13:06] Adam Fishman: way. [00:13:08] Chris Winther: Yeah. Maybe it's a, it's a good thing. But, um, I do feel like, you know, I, I gave a little bit of myself up to do this, but you know, you don't know also what you're gaining. and I think that's been, you know, 10 times better than what I lost. [00:13:21] Adam Fishman: Yeah. [00:13:24] Adam Fishman: Did the two of you have to talk about. The idea of power dynamics. I feel like it's common for those to kind of start to show up. I mean, they often show up when men work outside the, the home and the mom stays home where you have one partner earning money the other doesn't, but is contributing in a lot of other very meaningful ways. [00:13:42] Adam Fishman: Like was that something that you, just sort of sorted itself out, was never a concern? Or did you have to, like, was it a concern of, of either one of you? Did you have to like actively talk about that? [00:13:54] Chris Winther: well, I mean, I'll let Amy chime in, but I feel like that wasn't a big issue for us since, you know, from the moment we got married, we joined finances, we bought a house together. and then my financial background, it was kind of natural for me to take the lead on a lot of the household stuff already. [00:14:09] Chris Winther: so. I, I never felt like, oh no, I'm not earning money. You know, what am I gonna do? Or how am I gonna contribute, I guess, [00:14:17] Amy Winther: Yeah, same. I think with Chris's financial background, talking about money is like talking about air in our household and we just talk about it all the time, [00:14:26] Amy Winther: which is great. It's great to normalize it and like he said, we really have this perspective. That's what's mine is yours. And so there's no sense of you know, all pooled basically in our mind. I think the other thing too is I think Chris and I have always had a strong partnership and an ability to really let each other, run in our own worlds. So I think it works out well in terms of like, he is running the house and the kids and I'm running the work [00:14:53] Amy Winther: portion and we really defer to each other in those situations. I think that's honestly one of the hardest parts is you have to give up control of the other. Piece. You can't both have it done your way and let somebody else do it. You have to, you have to like, um, you know, have that alignment conversation of who's going to do what and then trust that they will do it. [00:15:13] Amy Winther: And [00:15:14] Amy Winther: Chris has an incredible partner in that. And, um, he does what he says he is going to do. And, we talk about things when there is misalignment. So I don't really feel like there's much of a power play. It's more of just how can we each play to our strengths in our different worlds and support one another in that. [00:15:30] Amy Winther: And I think we're also by walking in each other's shoes a bit as well, we're highly flexible. I mean, he can't do my job, but like, [00:15:39] Adam Fishman: How are your design skills, Chris? [00:15:41] Chris Winther: I mean, sometimes she does come to me for advice and I, I freely give, but, uh. [00:15:48] Amy Winther: But yeah, we're able to counterbalance each other and, um, quite fluid in ways that maybe some other partners aren't, are not as. [00:15:57] Adam Fishman: Yeah, I think that's awesome that the two of you, didn't have that sort of like power dynamic happen in, in your household. I, I'd imagine that it, is more common than we might think. even though I don't interview a ton of a ton of couples, I, I, I'm sure it comes up. but I also think it's great that you, in some ways kind of like worked through that even potentially happening by having those alignment conversations and kinda separating everybody's has their sort of sphere of control and like what they're relied on by their part, by each, uh, and the other of you and, and things like that. [00:16:29] Adam Fishman: So I think that's really, incredible. [00:16:31] Adam Fishman: I'm very curious about this, Chris. you know, one of my observations when I've, Stayed home with a sick kid or, just stayed home because a kid had a holiday from school. My kids were younger. I used to like, I would do that and take them to the park and things like that. [00:16:45] Adam Fishman: I was surrounded by like a sea of [00:16:48] Adam Fishman: nannies, stay-at-home moms. I was often the only, male person in an entire park, you know, with like dozens of other, adults. probably was a concern of yours going in, going into this, I think you might have mentioned that, you know, has that proven out to be true? [00:17:06] Adam Fishman: And how have you kind of combated this idea of like, you know, when I'm doing stuff with the kids, it is kind of a sea of nannies and other stay-at-home moms most traditionally. [00:17:17] Chris Winther: I think that was definitely a big concern going in. And it has borne out in a lot of ways. Like definitely you go to the park and it's mostly women, and, uh, every once in a while there's a few dads. you know, Amy and I choked early on. I would go to the park or whatever and it would just be like the sea of nannies and then me, and I'm like playing with my kid. [00:17:34] Chris Winther: And then like, the children, I don't know if it's because I'm the one guy there, but it's like they like come to me and want to play with me. And I'm like, no, I, this isn't my job. This is their job. But, um, but I think in some ways, like, because it is rarer maybe to have stay at home dads. It's like when you find. another one on the playground is like, oh yeah, you know, you get the head nod and you go in and it's kind of an instant connection there. And [00:17:58] Chris Winther: I'm thinking of early on with Henry, we had a, a parent group, it was called PEPs up here in Washington. And one of the families, the dad was a teacher. [00:18:09] Chris Winther: Um, and then he unfortunately lost his job, so he kind of stepped into this role. Maybe not by choice, but it was like we had a really good friendship over there and we would go to the zoo together. And, um, it's something special that you can share with a, somebody else that maybe is rare. [00:18:22] Chris Winther: And I really appreciated that. But it is still an ongoing, like, oh, I wish there was more dads I could hang out with during the day. and then a lot of it thinking through all the Sea of Moms is, early on I was very, nervous or. It's like they probably don't want to have a creepy guy walking up to 'em, you know? [00:18:41] Chris Winther: But then eventually I kind of got over that and it was like, no, I'm just another parent, not a creepy guy. [00:18:46] Chris Winther: and as Amy and I, [00:18:47] Chris Winther: you know, kind of along these same lines, when we go to a get together with friends, it's like, a lot of times I naturally am like going over to the moms and talking with them because it's like, oh, we have a lot of the same day to day, a lot of things in common, and my Amy's talking with the guys about work. [00:19:03] Chris Winther: and it just kind of happens naturally. And so there's still community and maybe it's not five guys in me, and it's like, [00:19:08] Chris Winther: that's fine. [00:19:09] Adam Fishman: I think that's great. and also like what you mentioned about your initial thing was thinking that you're gonna be like the creepy guy at the park. Like I've, I've felt that myself, so I know, have, you had to like, you know, elbow your way into like the moms groups and the text threads and like, things like that to kind of get a seat at the table, Chris? [00:19:29] Chris Winther: You know, I probably haven't, not that I haven't had to, I just, don't think I have, I've done it enough or cared enough maybe to get into those groups. Like if they don't want to invite me in, maybe I don't really want to be in there. [00:19:40] Adam Fishman: Yeah. [00:19:40] Amy Winther: will say though, I mean, I think you actually are in several moms groups that [00:19:46] Amy Winther: maybe you, I think they've just become so natural in our life. Like I'm thinking about you will communicate a lot in the week to week with like different play dates, setting up different play dates from school, [00:19:56] Amy Winther: things like that. We've got some neighbors that he'll communicate with. Um, my best friend at times, they've like gotten the kids together 'cause she's a teacher, so [00:20:03] Amy Winther: they'll, she'll have more breaks. And so I think the thing that's positively surprised us, which maybe. Was not, what we assumed was just that people don't really care. [00:20:14] Amy Winther: I mean, there might be people who care, but they've never said anything. And usually once we kind of establish with people, they're like, Hey, Chris is the one with the kids. It's like, okay, well then I'll reach out to him and they'll communicate with him. And, so I think there might be like women's groups that, yeah, he's not like getting into those. But in terms of like, fostering community within like schools and things like that, i, I, mean you're in some of the mom chats that I'm not even, [00:20:37] Chris Winther: Yeah. [00:20:38] Amy Winther: so, [00:20:39] Amy Winther: I dunno if you [00:20:39] Amy Winther: agree with that or not, but [00:20:40] Chris Winther: Yeah, I think you're [00:20:41] Chris Winther: right. Like [00:20:41] Chris Winther: maybe I'm not thinking about it enough to be like, oh yeah, I'm in the mom group when it's like, oh, I looked down at it and it's like, it's three moms and me and uh, but I'm just thinking about it like, oh, I'm planning a play date with the other parents. [00:20:52] Adam Fishman: Yeah. It's not explicitly like the group chat is not named, you know, like Seattle bombs or something like that. [00:20:57] Adam Fishman: But, um, yeah, I get, I get it. [00:20:59] Adam Fishman: yeah, I don't know if there's anything to this, but I'm curious if either of you had any sort of assumptions going into this about like, what the other person's day would be like, and like where you were, maybe if you did have some assumptions, like where you found that you were just totally wrong. [00:21:17] Amy Winther: I assumed Chris would have a ton of time to do, you know, all the things. And the reality is that, he is busy taking care of the kids. Turns out it's, it's a full-time job, just getting through the drop offs, then the midday pickups and balancing the diff, I mean, we've got kids at different schools with diff some is half day, some is full day. the back and forth and the lunches and the nap time and the up from nap time. I mean, it's just like every 30 minutes, every hour there's something to do. So I think I might have thought there would be. time for, you know, the laundry list of chores type things. But if there's really, it's not just that him being home, it means that all that's gonna get done too. So that was my biggest assumption. [00:21:59] Chris Winther: we still get [00:21:59] Chris Winther: a lot of it done. But, um, [00:22:02] Amy Winther: Yeah. You do a lot around the house. Sorry, I don't mean to discredit what you do, [00:22:07] Chris Winther: But [00:22:08] Adam Fishman: you're not, but you're not exactly like Netflix and chilling in the middle of the day is kind of what you're going for, Amy, right? [00:22:14] Amy Winther: thinking more like cleaning out the gutters or like, stuff like that. Like, [00:22:17] Amy Winther: it's like that's not an easy way to just like check that onto the day. [00:22:20] Adam Fishman: Right, right. Hey, kids, we're going up on the roof, [00:22:23] Adam Fishman: uh, [00:22:24] Chris Winther: Some when the, when the [00:22:25] Amy Winther: Shockingly, that's not easy to do. [00:22:27] Chris Winther: Um, [00:22:28] Adam Fishman: put on this harness. Kids, it's time to clean the gutters. [00:22:31] Amy Winther: I have big expectations. [00:22:35] Chris Winther: we [00:22:36] Adam Fishman: What about you, Chris? Do you have any, did you have any assumptions about Amy's role in the office or anything like that? [00:22:41] Chris Winther: you know, I mean, since I did work for a while, I guess, I don't know if I really had any assumptions that, that didn't line up. I don't know. [00:22:49] Adam Fishman: Yeah, I figured that was probably the case. on the topic of assumptions with the two of you and sort of interacting with the external world, like. What do you find is the most common incorrect assumption that people make about your setup? And I'm sure there are incorrect assumptions for both of you. [00:23:08] Adam Fishman: and then I'm also curious like how you respond to it, when that happens. [00:23:13] Amy Winther: huh? This is a tougher one for me because we were really nervous when we were going into this setup. Like, what will people think? What will they say? At least to our faces, no one has said anything negative [00:23:24] Amy Winther: or, you know, declared any assumptions. [00:23:27] Amy Winther: something that I've realized is that I would think other people would assume is that, there's the work that it takes to run a household and take care of kids, and there's work it takes to do a full-time job. And then we layer on, as a society, these genders onto those typically. And that's our starting base. And so I think there's all these assumptions about gender playing into it. [00:23:49] Amy Winther: and having flipped that and walking in each other's shoes, it's like there's not that much gender about these things. These are all skills that you learn and practice on a daily basis. And I think it's more about who has the most time and the most access to learning those skills and therefore gains them the fastest. and so there's things that, yeah, Chris is just much, better at or faster at, with the kids that like when he is, um, gone for a few days or something, like, it takes me kind of a while to figure out over the weekend, like, what are my systems in place? [00:24:18] Amy Winther: Like, or I don't have systems in place so things are, might just be a little bit harder for me, [00:24:22] Amy Winther: but I get there over time. and so I think people assume like, oh, I can't do this because women are better at this or whatever. It's like they're not, they just are doing it more so they are it seems like it's more natural, [00:24:34] Amy Winther: but it's just that they've like, maybe have done it more times. [00:24:37] Adam Fishman: there's two things. I want to follow up on that, and then Chris, I want to get your take on this too. But like one is what you just said, Amy is very related to, I just had a guest on pretty recently, who talked about mental load and cognitive load, and we talked about the difference between skills and deployment. [00:24:54] Adam Fishman: And so like everyone can have the skills to be an excellent caregiver and be a great, you know. Be a stay at home parent or take care of the kids or whatever. It's just in our society, those skills aren't always deployed or oftentimes they're deployed along gender lines or something like that. So it kind of gets to what you were saying there and then the, the specific follow up. [00:25:15] Adam Fishman: so with like incorrect assumptions, I don't think it's necessarily negative assumptions, but like one of the things that you wrote about, I think you, you wrote about taking a business trip and what it's like to travel, and then when you get to somewhere, people are like, oh, a Amy who's home with your kids? [00:25:31] Adam Fishman: are they just running around like feral animals, like unsupervised and, and you were like, well, no, like the person who's always home with them is home with them. Like, We do have two parents in this situation. So that's one like example that I think really like stuck out to me is that that sort of, you can kind of, um. [00:25:50] Adam Fishman: You know, move past that assumption pretty quickly. But the default is like, oh my God, you're here. Who's with your kids? Whatever must they be doing? and I'm sure that [00:25:59] Adam Fishman: probably happens a lot. Yeah, [00:26:01] Amy Winther: I run into that on a daily basis. I mean, anytime I meet somebody new at work and we're talking about, do you have any kids? I've got three kids. Oh wow. That's so much. You know, how do you do that? It's like, [00:26:12] Amy Winther: well, I'm not doing it all, you know? So [00:26:15] Amy Winther: I run into that on both, on a daily basis, on a work travel. [00:26:18] Amy Winther: So, yeah, it is generally always assumed that I am the one doing my career and being the primary parent, and I have to, we have to correct that, or, you know, [00:26:27] Amy Winther: our story. [00:26:28] Adam Fishman: This is why I started this podcast, by the way, because the very first thing that a working mom gets asked is usually like, what's happening at home? How's it going? You know, and like, that's not fair. okay, so Chris, what about incorrect assumptions that maybe you get from people? [00:26:44] Chris Winther: Well, I think kind of along the lines that, uh, you and Amy had talked about there is I feel like I get a lot of, maybe undeserved praise at the playground. You know, like, oh my gosh, how are you doing this? Like, this is incredible that you've got three kids and what, and I'm like, yeah, I know. [00:26:59] Chris Winther: It's, oh my gosh. but no, and then I tell them like, no, I do this every day. And, uh, yes, it's a lot, but it's like all the moms aren't, probably, getting this kind of praise when they do it. [00:27:08] Adam Fishman: I'm certain they are not. it is kind of funny. funny and sad, but I'll laugh about it. We can laugh about on this show. okay. [00:27:17] Adam Fishman: So one very specific thing I wanted to ask, both of you. Maybe how you solve this, if you have, is one of the things that I find, is even when they're as a primary parent, let's say it's me, or in your case Chris, like there tends to be this sort of skew where school or daycare or preschool or the doctor's office or whatever, if they've got a list of two parents, they tend to call mom first, right? [00:27:41] Adam Fishman: And this is a thing that like people have talked ad nauseum about on the internet, and it's almost like a thing you have to fight against actively. So have you two solved this and. If so, like what have you done? Have you just like not given people Amy's number? [00:27:58] Chris Winther: I mean, if there, if there's only space for one number, then yeah, we would put mine. [00:28:02] Chris Winther: I'm thinking about the doctor. It's like we made very clear early on, like we told our primary doctor, like Chris is stay at home and I take the kids to the doctor's appointments and [00:28:10] Chris Winther: like we've got a good rapport. I don't know. For you, Amy, are you getting phone calls from. [00:28:15] Amy Winther: I can't think of a specific scenario, but I'm just thinking you have this, I know this has happened to me multiple times where I'm handed the form, right? I just fill out Chris's info. [00:28:22] Amy Winther: Or like [00:28:23] Amy Winther: if somebody texted me, I just texted say, oh, Chris will handle that. [00:28:27] Amy Winther: I'm not really bothered by it because again, it happens. [00:28:30] Amy Winther: it's just kind of these gentle corrections and over time it's built to, people just go to him first because he's the one showing up. He is. It's, you're in our lives, it's very obvious that you would go to Chris and not me. [00:28:41] Amy Winther: Schools have actually been really great about this. [00:28:43] Amy Winther: 'cause it's not just us, right. You know, it could be, divorced parents, or it could be two moms or two dads or so, you [00:28:49] Amy Winther: know, I think our, the schools that we're in are really cognizant of this and aware of this and are typically kind of asking, you know, who to check for the primary. [00:28:57] Amy Winther: So I think we've been, a combination of, lucky in that sense and also just gentle corrections over time and people figure it out. [00:29:04] Adam Fishman: Yeah. We have the same situation where our school and like other places like that will say like, who should we call first if there is an issue or something like that. If you're gonna list [00:29:12] Adam Fishman: both people's names. I'm glad that yours does as well. I think not everyone is as fortunate as the three of us on this convers in this conversation. [00:29:19] Adam Fishman: So, it sounds like you're, you're in a fairly progressive community like myself, so, [00:29:24] Adam Fishman: Chris, one of the things that you, you know, I asked you in the prep for this show is some of the. Topics that were important, to you. And one of the ones that you mentioned is around time and time being your most precious resource. [00:29:39] Adam Fishman: and Amy kind of already alluded to the fact that like, life is full, for you too, Chris. Like you're going like, there's a schedule and you got to stick to it and there's a lot to do. So I'm curious to just hear more about you, uh, maybe from both of you too, about time and your feelings around it being like a really kind of precious and scarce resource. [00:29:59] Chris Winther: not thinking anything new to say that it's like time's the one thing we can't really get back. and it's not just oh time when the kids are young and, and I want to be around, but just, time to make connection with Amy and with the kids and being able to get stuff done during the day like Amy had talked about so that the weekends aren't full of all these other chores that we have to do. [00:30:19] Chris Winther: that we can really focus and be present with the kids and do activities with them. and just thinking about prioritizing about like what do we want to do with our lives? Like do I want to sit in the car for a 45 minute commute each way? just so that we can make, you know, that extra money that we would have, that half of it would go to childcare or whatever. [00:30:39] Chris Winther: and it's like, where are our priorities? and I think that was kind of a big part of that initial conversation when we were like, should someone stay home? And who should it be? How can we do this best to maximize our time? so that was one of the frameworks maybe I used when thinking about it. [00:30:52] Adam Fishman: Yeah. What about you, Amy? How do you think about the resource of time with a young family? [00:30:58] Amy Winther: I had echo what Chris is saying around being really intentional about how we want to spend our time. There was additional decisions we made, even just beyond us deciding that Chris would be the stay at home dad. I mean, I this was pre CI switched to a remote role because I wanted to cut out that commute time and I wanted to be able to see the kids throughout the day. it was not only just we want to have somebody home, but it was how do we both get more time at home? And it was also a matter of just being realistic about what it would take for us to both work, which was a lot of outsourcing and. you know, we take pride in our home. We want to, we did a remodel. [00:31:36] Amy Winther: We really enjoy taking care of our home. We enjoy cooking. I mean, maybe it's not our favorite thing ever, but it doesn't necessarily bring us the same amount of joy to just outsource all of that. And so it's like with time being limited, we would like to outsource a little bit of it, but we also want to have the time to do some of it ourselves as well. And, teach our kids how to cook and things like that. So, I mean, that was the biggest immediate change that we experienced was just the slowing down with having one of us at home. You know, we're not rushing in the every day and we have a lot more, free time to just be and enjoy the weekends. [00:32:11] Adam Fishman: Yeah, I like that. sort of trade off of like, yeah, you can do more, but it comes at a cost of like outsourcing some things that you might enjoy and there's certainly unenjoyable activities that you can't do with your kids or you can't do as a couple that people are happy to outsource. But I do feel like you know, for a lot of people it's a spectrum of like, what do you actually, what actually brings you some joy? [00:32:34] Adam Fishman: And if it's like, you know, cooking with your kids, then maybe you don't. Need to outsource, like meal prep services or something like that for other people, they actually hate cooking and like it's a thing that they would love to outsource. it's really interesting kind of like what, sort of you prioritize in your life. [00:32:50] Adam Fishman: [00:32:50] Adam Fishman: one of the things that I'm very curious about too is, as your kids get older, how the two of you are sort of revisiting the decision around, like, should Chris continue to stay home? Does he want to continue to stay home? And Chris, one of the things that you mentioned is that you, you guys do like an annual meeting, where you kind of like check in on the year ahead, like a whole bunch of topics and things like that. [00:33:14] Adam Fishman: And one of those was to make sure that the current setup is still working out for everybody. And so, I'm just curious, like, is that something that you, Knowingly did, did it happen by accident? and what's on the agenda for the next annual meeting? [00:33:28] Chris Winther: I'm trying to think when we instigated the family meeting or the annual meeting, if that was pre-kids or if it didn't come out until we had kids. I mean, it was the four kids. Yeah. I mean, my job, I was a financial planner, but also just like my mentality is, is planning. [00:33:42] Chris Winther: Like we plan our vacations kind of a year in advance. We think about like, what do we want to do? So it's been a natural outgrowth of that. and coming up on this year, I mean, it'll kinda be the same as always where, we'll, we'll go over the finances, you know, where were we at the beginning of the year, where are we now? [00:33:57] Chris Winther: Like how is that different from what we thought was gonna happen at last year's meeting? and then what Amy will cover a portion of. [00:34:06] Amy Winther: Yeah, so we kind of split it. Chris does the deep dive on the financials, and then, this other portion, it's scrappy. I'm writing it on a piece of paper. I just bullet point different categories that we talk about every year, which is, different vectors of our health. [00:34:22] Amy Winther: So it's our social health, our emotional mental health, we reflect on our, spiritual health as well. And we take inventory of what are all the trips that we went on kind of like as a proxy of how do we spend our time sometimes we've also mapped out the kids' ages over five years, which sounds silly, but when you're in the thick of it, you just aren't thinking ahead beyond the next minute. [00:34:47] Amy Winther: So to sit [00:34:47] Amy Winther: down and just, it's opened up for us. Into, oh wow, three years from now they're all gonna be at the same school. Well, that really will change how things are going on. So both kind of highlights, moments in time that we're in that are pinch points that won't be forever. [00:35:02] Amy Winther: And also some opportunities. Chris is very much a planner. I'm very much a dreamer. And so what it does is it gives us that space to be able to take big swings. So we've been able to say, Hey, a year from now, what if we were to take a month long trip somewhere or a year from now? What if we were to remodel? And then Chris is like, okay, let's work backwards from there. and then we're actually able to make it happen where when you're just looking a week out or a month out, everything's already packed in by now, but a month out Or I'm sorry, meaning you're out, you're not doing anything, like you could do whatever you wanted. So again, it's [00:35:35] Amy Winther: about that being able to say, what do we actually want to be doing and how are we lining up our time, our resources, and really going into that year aligned on how are we spending our day-to-day money? How are we saving our money? what vacations are we booking and making sure we're getting breaks throughout the year and all of that. [00:35:53] Adam Fishman: yeah, Love that. Chris, would you, would you [00:35:55] Adam Fishman: add anything to that? [00:35:56] Chris Winther: since I stepped back and stayed home, we do have that conversation of like, how am I feeling about it? How's Amy feeling about it is like she said, she loves being a mom. She loves caring for the kids. She's good at it. You know, maybe in the future that's something she would do. [00:36:10] Chris Winther: And that would be a big change. And that would definitely be something we'd cover at the annual meeting of, uh, like, how are we gonna get Chris ready to work? or what, something along those lines. Um, [00:36:18] Adam Fishman: Yeah, I love. thinking about the annual meeting as like the, the Berkshire Hathaway shareholder meeting when you, like, people come up to the microphone and can ask you questions and things like that too, [00:36:29] Chris Winther: Well, yeah. Maybe eventually. We'll, we'll bring the kids in and they can, uh, [00:36:33] Chris Winther: you know, they can submit questions and we'll take them and call on them. Yes, yes. [00:36:38] Adam Fishman: Love that. [00:36:40] Adam Fishman: what the two of you said there is like, also builds off something that you told me, Chris, which is this belief that like everything is a season. you know, I've heard a few dads talk about this on the show that one of my favorite mantras that a dad, talked about was like idea that this too shall pass and that could be the bad and the good. Like things are going great. Just remember this too shall pass. You know? And like, maybe they won't go so great again and vice versa. And so like, Is that kind of the belief that the two of you hold? Is it like, there's like seasons to life and things like that And you're in a particular season right now? [00:37:16] Chris Winther: it, it's like both a macro kind of view where it's like, yeah, this, this period of having three kids that are all, they're seven, four, and two now, but, kind of having three young kids or just thinking about Brooks, you know, he just turned two. It's like now we're thinking about changing him outta diapers and it's like, oh man, diapers, we're gonna be done with diapers soon. so it's both the big view of like, oh, the kids are growing up and we'll be thinking about middle school and all that kind of stuff. Or just the micro view of holding the baby in the middle of the night because they're not sleeping through the night. And it's like, you know what, eventually we're gonna be sleeping through the night, and I don't know if I'll look back fondly on these snuggles, but it's like, at least I know that Is gonna change soon. Like you said, [00:37:56] Chris Winther: there's the good and the bad. [00:37:57] Chris Winther: [00:37:57] Chris Winther: but [00:37:58] Adam Fishman: I [00:37:59] Adam Fishman: I look, I look forward to the day that the two of you are completely done with diapers. You'll have made it through [00:38:04] Adam Fishman: three kids, three cycles of diapers. So, that's incredible. but yeah, I think Chris, what you just mentioned there is like, is really great. Like, you know, you don't know if you'll look back fondly on like that kid that's like beside himself in the middle of the night, but at least in the moment you can be like, you know, this isn't gonna happen forever. [00:38:23] Adam Fishman: Like, there will be a time where they do sleep and they don't need me, at 3:00 AM Uh, one of the things [00:38:30] Amy Winther: it feels like it'll be forever [00:38:32] Adam Fishman: Sure does. It sure does. [00:38:35] Adam Fishman: Amy, one of the things that you mentioned is one of the kind of frameworks that Chris, alluded to, and you talked about you being the dreamer and then Chris kind of like. Figuring out how you're gonna achieve that, helping figure out how you're gonna achieve that dream, or at least like grounding it in, you know, some practicality. [00:38:51] Adam Fishman: is this idea of working backwards. and so, you know, I think about this when it comes to like building products you like, start with your end vision and then you like work backwards to say, well, how are we gonna get to that thing that we really want to do? you mentioned sort of big projects in your life or family vacation or something like that, but how else does this manifest how does this concept of working backwards manifest in your lives? [00:39:14] Amy Winther: I mean, it really comes back to these annual reviews, which are genuinely a joy for us. [00:39:28] Amy Winther: We, we enjoy them. They're not, uh, pain. It's sometimes we're even like, oh, you know, we'll do it in December or something, and I'm like, oh, now it's over. we can literally go back through the years and, oh, when we got married, it was, what are all, what are the things that just seem like they would be incredible to do together, to accomplish? Last year, the conversation was, well, we did the list. We have to make a new list now we had the amount of kids we, we wanted, we renovated the home, we did the travel we wanted to do. And and so it was time to dream big again. And, uh, I would say actually we're more in a space of, what's next? [00:39:59] Amy Winther: And, and filling that in. [00:40:01] Amy Winther: But I think we have been able to tackle some really big, I mean, we've moved in with my parents for a year to completely renovate the home. [00:40:08] Amy Winther: And I took on the interior design aspect of that, which I had, I'm a designer, but I'm not an interior designer. So it was a year bootcamp for myself of learning all of that skill and, it was just a massive, massive, massive ordeal. And it's things like that that, you know, Chris's. I was preparing the finances years in advance. We were doing all the due diligence of all the prepping and the vetting contractors and all of that, and then the actual in the day weeds. I was on the job site most days that whole year [00:40:37] Amy Winther: while also doing my job and [00:40:39] Amy Winther: all of that. [00:40:40] Amy Winther: So yeah, by working backwards, we've been able to tackle some really big, gnarly things [00:40:45] Amy Winther: and it's been a great partnership. Chris is a great partner. [00:40:48] Adam Fishman: Okay. [00:40:57] Adam Fishman: Well, I'm not gonna let you off the hook on the thing that you just worked in there, Amy, which is that you moved in with your parents for an entire year while you were remodeling your house. Okay? So I have some follow up questions about this for both of you. Um, and I I, not to cause any marital strife or anything, but, many kids. [00:41:07] Chris Winther: go online, right? [00:41:09] Adam Fishman: No, never. No one's ever gonna listen to this. And definitely not your parents, Amy. so, how many kids did you have when this living situation was going on? Did you have all three of 'em? [00:41:19] Amy Winther: we had two. [00:41:20] Adam Fishman: Oh, [00:41:21] Amy Winther: We had two, and then I got pregnant during the process. [00:41:23] Amy Winther: So we moved back into the house six weeks before Brooks was born. [00:41:28] Adam Fishman: Oh my God. Okay. Wow. So you had two and one, like very fully baked almost. or in the process of baking. wow, that's, uh, crazy. so Chris then you were home. Are Amy, are your parents retired? Are they also, at home hanging out or, okay, so it was basically Chris and your parents and the kids all hanging out during the day. [00:41:51] Adam Fishman: Chris, how was that dynamic? [00:41:54] Chris Winther: it was honestly, it was great. It was, you know, two more sets of hands that could help. And Amy's parents are, you know, if there's one word, it's like selfless. Like they are so giving. so, I mean, just being able to live there was obviously a gift because it saved us, I don't know, you know, 25, 30 grand just to have a place [00:42:12] Chris Winther: to stay and not have to, to rent a house or whatever. [00:42:14] Chris Winther: But, [00:42:15] Chris Winther: just day to day, like, there's obviously the awkwardness of like, living in someone else's home and the bathroom was like all the way at the other side of the house and like little things like that. But it's like, it was honestly great. And I think about just for the kids, like the change in their relationship, I think with grandma and grandpa, they loved them before, but it was always kind of like, [00:42:34] Chris Winther: We know we lose mom and dad 'cause we're gonna get dropped off at grandma and Grandpa's, but [00:42:38] Chris Winther: when we were living together, it was like, oh, I, we get it all. So I think some really special bonds were formed, over that time for them. [00:42:44] Chris Winther: another thing that maybe isn't necessarily related to them, but just we live in Seattle and they live in Bellevue on the east side. [00:42:55] Chris Winther: and so. If anyone's familiar with the area, it's kind of like two pretty different communities. And we had always thought, like my job was actually in Bellevue back when I was working and Amy's job was in Seattle. And we kind of thought like, well, what if we moved to the east side? Like a lot of young families moved to the east side, the houses are bigger, there's kind of more [00:43:10] Chris Winther: space, easier to park. and so we kind of got to give it a try and we said, you know what? We made the right choice to live in Seattle. Like, this is the kind of life We want to live. It's like we sold a car and like get punched places by bike. so it was a really cool opportunity to get to like, give it a test run. [00:43:25] Chris Winther: I'm always thinking about the practical side of things. [00:43:27] Chris Winther: Like, like, oh, this is a little trial run. [00:43:30] Adam Fishman: Yes. Yes. [00:43:31] Adam Fishman: Amy, it is not lost on me that, remodeling your house while you are pregnant is like the ultimate in nesting, activities. So, [00:43:41] Adam Fishman: um, [00:43:41] Amy Winther: I thought of that. [00:43:44] Adam Fishman: gotta have a project. Um, okay. One, there's a framework that the two of you have that Chris, you mentioned to me, which I wanted to ask you about, which is you and me versus the baby. [00:43:53] Adam Fishman: so tell me about you and me versus the baby. [00:43:56] Chris Winther: that was born out of, out of one of those late nights at 2:00 AM where the baby's crying. And I'm holding him and I'm like, what did Amy do? Like, why is the baby crying? Why is she sleeping? Why am I holding him? Um, and, and then the realization that it is not anything Amy did, it is just babies cry. [00:44:17] Chris Winther: and that it crystallized like we are a team. And like it's her and me versus the baby is kind of the joke part of it. But it's [00:44:26] Chris Winther: like, we're doing this together and it's better because we're together and it's not, you know, oh, what is Amy doing and why am I doing this? It's like, how can we work together to like help get to the next step or to help take care of whatever it is we're dealing with. [00:44:41] Chris Winther: maybe this is a failing on my part where in my head initially goes there like, why, why am I doing this and not Amy? But then I think about it, it's like, oh no, we're a team. It's like she was up two hours ago, you know, doing whatever with a baby. And that's my turn. [00:44:55] Adam Fishman: I think it's pretty normal for everyone's head to go there on both sides of the equation, at, you know, two or three in the morning with the screaming baby. You're like, can somebody else take this thing from me for just a little bit? [00:45:06] Adam Fishman: so, if the two of you were talking to, you know, another couple, who is thinking about this type of arrangement, and I don't know if you have any friends who have a similar arrangement, but, you know, a lot of couples listen to this show. [00:45:20] Adam Fishman: a lot of people are thinking about a, a variety of things when they're listening to the show and starting a family and things like that. So somebody was considering like a similar arrangement, what advice would you have, for them? [00:45:33] Amy Winther: what comes to mind for me is don't be afraid to go for it. If you think it's gonna play to your strengths, if it's going to be something that's going to benefit both of you, you know, why not give it a try? I do think that it's also though, not going to be an easier path. It's just a different path, and. To not expect it to kind of magically make everything easier or something like that. I mean, some things are helpful, just by nature of having somebody home, some things get easier, but it's also harder in other ways. I feel a lot of, guilt that I should help out more at home when I'm off because Chris has been home all day with the kids. [00:46:09] Amy Winther: And so, just comes with swapping for other things you have to deal with. [00:46:14] Amy Winther: I think there's also just, you know, as a woman, I think things I would just candidly share is that, as we've gone on with this, is that, it's different. I think when we started versus now in the sense that it felt really easy when we were early on in our careers, it felt more fungible of swapping things at that point. [00:46:30] Amy Winther: As things have gone on, it has felt a little bit more rigid. Like Chris switching back into career at this point would be a big investment and we'd have to really plan for that and, if we wanted to truly make the swap in terms of me being home. And so there is a weight there that I deal with now that I didn't at the beginning. [00:46:49] Amy Winther: That is just, reality of if you're gonna go forward with this. But I think it's not dissimilar to when I talk with other men who are, you know, the primary, financial maker in their house that like, they deal with that stress as well. So I think maybe that's my final thing is that if life is urging you that way to, investigate it and be curious about if that would work for you and to also recognize that other people are, you know, there to support you, whichever decision you make and life is really long and there's gonna be lots of, we talked about seasons earlier, [00:47:23] Amy Winther: it's not like you're stuck. [00:47:24] Amy Winther: You can always make a different choice. And I [00:47:26] Amy Winther: think that's something that as parents, we've gotten practice at and much better at than before kids is. We're just more in tune, I think, with this is what we value, this is what we need, and the cost is higher if you don't follow that, right? If you're incongruent with your values or how you want, and you feel that more in a day to day with the kids. [00:47:43] Amy Winther: And so just having that boldness to take a leap is something I think we've gotten more comfortable with as time has gone on too. But there's definitely things to consider.I worry about the longevity of my career in tech, you know, and that's something that keeps me up at night. Sometimes there's [00:48:00] Amy Winther: gonna be worries, whatever job I have. [00:48:02] Amy Winther: So [00:48:03] Amy Winther: it's just [00:48:03] Amy Winther: a matter, I think, of just choosing what's right for you in the moment. And it's not gonna be the right choice for everybody. But if it is, I would say, you know, whatever fears we had, I think, we've had way more positives to outweigh those. [00:48:15] Adam Fishman: yeah. [00:48:19] Adam Fishman: Chris, do you ever have dads who. Message you or talk to you or like pull you aside at a party and they're like, Hey, what's it like being a stay at home dad? does that come up? if somebody was considering it, like what would you tell them? [00:48:29] Chris Winther: it definitely comes up and usually I'm like, what's stopping you? I think it is like kind of the invisible scripts we have in our head where they think they aren't allowed to do it I think when we initially had the conversation about doing it, we were both very worried about what our parents would think about it. [00:48:45] Chris Winther: And they [00:48:45] Chris Winther: have both have been super supportive. the biggest thing is, is like Amy had said, think about where your strengths lie and does this make sense practically? And then if it does, I think other people will also see that. I don't think you need to worry about other people's, you know, supportive your, of this decision. [00:49:02] Chris Winther: that's why I think is, the biggest thing. Maybe holding people back. and then obviously there's the financial aspect, which I think because Amy and I were on a pretty level playing field at the time, it wasn't like, oh my gosh, if Chris quits, what are we gonna do? it was like, oh, actually we'd be [00:49:15] Chris Winther: fine. whoever it was that, stepped back. [00:49:17] Chris Winther: so I think I'm always thinking about the practical side of thing. And so if someone was asking me for advice, I would be practical and be like, well, does it make financial sense? Does it where your strengths lie? you had asked earlier about like the day to day, I think especially early on with kids. It can maybe be a little boring. It's like, are you all right with that? Like I am a little more of a homebody than Amy. It is. And so it's like, oh, this is kind of a natural choice for me to be the one who stayed home. [00:49:39] Chris Winther: just thinking about personality and like, is this a good fit, is what I would emphasize. [00:49:43] Adam Fishman: Awesome. [00:49:44] Adam Fishman: okay, so I have just a couple more questions before lightning round and I'm conscious of time here because I [00:49:50] Adam Fishman: know your time with no children is precious. [00:49:53] Adam Fishman: so the two of you seem to have a pretty good like communication and alignment and like discussion and, and things like that. [00:50:01] Adam Fishman: I am curious, I typically only get asked this to a dad on this show, but, what is like the one thing that the two of you still are at odds about when it comes to parenting or maybe don't see eye to eye? And this can be something very trivial. don't really care. I'm just very curious like where is there still debate? [00:50:23] Chris Winther: I can think of the most trivial thing is the diaper bag [00:50:27] Adam Fishman: tell me [00:50:28] Chris Winther: because I, well, [00:50:29] Adam Fishman: What [00:50:29] Chris Winther: I am home, you know, I am the day to day, and yet somehow Amy, you know, picked the diaper bag and it is the worst diaper bag. And, [00:50:40] Adam Fishman: that? Because it has is like very aesthetically pleasing and like fits [00:50:44] Adam Fishman: really nice. So [00:50:45] Adam Fishman: yeah, of [00:50:45] Adam Fishman: course. Yes. have a design background. [00:50:47] Chris Winther: it's not very one hand friendly, which as a parent, like doing things with [00:50:51] Chris Winther: one hand is very key. and then [00:50:54] Chris Winther: when I kind of switch to a different bag, Amy always complains because it's like I wanted a big bag that hold to everything, and then Amy can't find anything in there. It's like, well, I'm sorry. You're like, [00:51:04] Adam Fishman: Right. [00:51:04] Chris Winther: that a problem for me if you can't find stuff in the diaper bag? so [00:51:08] Adam Fishman: You got like Mary Poppin's bag. [00:51:11] Chris Winther: I mean, the kids expect [00:51:12] Adam Fishman: about your [00:51:12] Chris Winther: to, flow out. my birthday was two weeks ago and what does Amy get me for for my birthday is, is a backpack. [00:51:18] Chris Winther: She's like, oh, this could be a good diaper bag. I was like, oh, thank you. [00:51:23] Adam Fishman: Hint, hint [00:51:24] Amy Winther: I am still [00:51:24] Adam Fishman: it's still still trying. That's awesome. Oh, love, the diaper bag. Um, it looks like Chris, though, maybe you've won this argument for now, although Amy's still gonna throw, throw gifts in other vessels [00:51:35] Chris Winther: Yeah, [00:51:36] Adam Fishman: until she breaks you. [00:51:37] Chris Winther: I think so. And, and we're like, we're six months [00:51:39] Chris Winther: away right from being outta diapers. So then a backpack will be just great. [00:51:43] Adam Fishman: yeah. You can do a collective like burning of the diaper bag on a pyre in your yard or something like that, so, okay. Um, Amy, are you satisfied? Yeah. Yes. Amy, are you satisfied with that answer? Is that a good, uh, [00:51:56] Amy Winther: Yeah, I try to go, you know, as minimal as possible. I believe in the power of collective community, meaning if I forget a diaper, I'm just gonna walk up to somebody at the playground and ask for a diaper or something like that. [00:52:11] Amy Winther: So for every scenario, [00:52:14] Amy Winther: and I am flying by the seat of my pants. [00:52:16] Adam Fishman: yep. I love that. okay. [00:52:20] Adam Fishman: Amy, I like to ask people about their use of AI as a parent. And Chris mentioned that you might be vibe coding, an app with your oldest son. and so I'm [00:52:29] Amy Winther: Yes. [00:52:30] Adam Fishman: what are the two of you building together? [00:52:33] Amy Winther: Yeah. Well, have had two different prototypes going on. The first one we really liked board games as a family. So the whole process was just I wanted to learn how to do it. He was wanting to do it. And so I started out teaching him how to sketch out different app screens and then we would pull it into V zero and, and by good things, so we did one which was all around how to, like read the instructions in a easy way, kind of breaking them down step by step, and then being able to review the game within the app. And then he wanted to keep. Tabs on who won the game. I guess he likes to win. [00:53:09] Amy Winther: And then the other app was, keeping track of the books that he was reading. [00:53:14] Adam Fishman: Oh, awesome. I love that. That sounds [00:53:16] Amy Winther: Mm-hmm. [00:53:16] Adam Fishman: And he is only seven, so that's so cool. [00:53:19] Amy Winther: Yeah, the bummer, or it's not a bummer, but you know, I do this all day for my job, so then he's eager to do it, you know, after my job and I'm thinking, no, I want to just get off screen. [00:53:29] Amy Winther: So I'm trying to figure out how to do it in a time and space where we're both energized by it. So that's. [00:53:36] Adam Fishman: totally. okay. Well I love that. Thank you for sharing that example. Um, last question. How can people follow along or be helpful to either one of you? [00:53:48] Amy Winther: Well, I think for me, you can follow along with motherboard like you talked about earlier. Um, it's a passion project of mine that I started just born out of wanting to foster more storytelling of what it's like to be a woman who's, uh, senior or executive roles within big tech. It's this very small niche, but uh, if you're in it, you know, it's a unique one and it comes with unique challenges and wanted to just share more stories that people can find themselves in. [00:54:16] Amy Winther: And that's what it's doing. And I think it's helping, it's helping people feel not alone in their roles and feel supported. So that's the hard behind it. And, uh, you can follow along and, see the stories that are shared there. And. Send Chris, I don't know, snacks for the kids. What do, what do you need, Chris? [00:54:33] Amy Winther: Do you need send him babysitting? So [00:54:36] Chris Winther: Yeah. [00:54:37] Adam Fishman: Chris, do you have a, do you have like dad, TikTok or anything yet that we can promote on this show? Is it [00:54:44] Chris Winther: No, we have, we have, [00:54:46] Adam Fishman: off the hook? [00:54:47] Chris Winther: we have talked about doing something like that, but, uh, nothing currently. [00:54:50] Adam Fishman: Yeah, there is some really good, uh, dad, content out there on the, uh, on the old Instagram and TikTok. So, cool. Well if you start one, let me know and I will update the show notes [00:55:00] Adam Fishman: to reflect that. So, okay. [00:55:04] Adam Fishman: We have, but just a few moments left before that, little one wakes up from nap time. [00:55:07] Adam Fishman: so we're gonna do a quick lightning round. I'll probably pop around here. are you both ready for lightning round? [00:55:13] Chris Winther: I think [00:55:14] Chris Winther: so. [00:55:14] Adam Fishman: Okay. now either one of you can answer by the way. so, you know, dealer's choice, uh, what is the most indispensable parenting product you've ever purchased? [00:55:25] Chris Winther: can we use product names? Is that okay? [00:55:27] Chris Winther: there's this tent. I think it's called the slumber Pod. It's a tent for travel cribs and it has made travel for us. so much easier because [00:55:37] Chris Winther: it's a blackout tent. [00:55:39] Chris Winther: Yeah. It goes over and so not only is it a dark, quiet spot for your baby to sleep, but then everywhere we go and we put the baby to sleep, it's the same. [00:55:49] Chris Winther: So hopefully it [00:55:50] Chris Winther: kind of makes it easier and more comfortable for the baby. We've used it for all three, And then you get, like, you know, you get a hotel room where it's just the one room and it's like, well, the baby goes to bed at seven or seven 30, so we just turn out the lights and sit there in the dark. [00:56:03] Chris Winther: with the, the slumber pod you put the baby in and close them up and they go to sleep and you can do whatever. [00:56:08] Adam Fishman: Awesome. [00:56:09] Adam Fishman: Oh, [00:56:09] Chris Winther: been great for travel. Yeah. [00:56:11] Adam Fishman: Love that. Okay. I'm gonna ask this one of Amy. True or false, there's only one correct way to load the dishwasher. [00:56:18] Amy Winther: True. [00:56:19] Adam Fishman: Okay. True. And is it your way or is it Chris's way? [00:56:22] Amy Winther: Oh, we've aligned on that early on. [00:56:24] Adam Fishman: Oh, good. Wow. This is a, this is a first. This is a first on this show. Yeah. [00:56:31] Chris Winther: man. [00:56:32] Amy Winther: now it's uh, now it's about getting the kids to do it in the same way. no. You gotta iron out [00:56:37] Adam Fishman: There's, there's some really important things and the loading of the dishwasher is one that you just gotta nail right off the bat. So, uh, I love [00:56:44] Amy Winther: Yes. And there was, there was, back and forth. Oh. I mean, there was back and forth on how do we, how do we negotiate our way to the, to the appropriate way, but it's locked in. [00:56:54] Adam Fishman: Yeah. [00:56:54] Amy Winther: Just execute the plan now. [00:56:56] Adam Fishman: Okay. Awesome. Chris, what would you say is your parenting superpower? [00:57:01] Chris Winther: patience. I think [00:57:02] Adam Fishman: Okay. would you say Amy's parenting superpower is? [00:57:06] Chris Winther: Amy is her [00:57:11] Adam Fishman: Adventurousness. Okay. Love that. Love that. I'm curious for both of you, is there a task, a parenting task that you still like to pretend that the other person is responsible for? maybe this is a better one for Chris since he is, does the primary parenting? [00:57:31] Chris Winther: That I pretend the other person is [00:57:33] Adam Fishman: Yeah. What do you, what do you, what do you like to try to punt to Amy? If push comes to shove? [00:57:37] Chris Winther: I try to get Amy to give Piper baths. [00:57:41] Adam Fishman: Uh, [00:57:42] Chris Winther: the other baths, but Piper, our daughter, her hair, it's a whole thing with her hair and then [00:57:47] Chris Winther: hair drying and I'm not [00:57:49] Chris Winther: good at it. You know, I'm getting good at braiding, like I, I'm getting better. But, I don't know. It's the whole [00:57:55] Adam Fishman: Yeah. [00:57:56] Chris Winther: prefer Amy does it, and usually she does. [00:57:58] Adam Fishman: That's awesome. [00:57:59] Amy Winther: I mean, it's a 45 minute ordeal. It's, it's a, it's, we have very thick hair. We have a lot of hair. It [00:58:05] Adam Fishman: Yep. [00:58:06] Amy Winther: fun for anyone. [00:58:07] Adam Fishman: Okay. I love that. Amy, what is the crazier block of time in your house? Uh, 6:00 AM to 8:00 AM or 6:00 PM To 8:00 PM [00:58:15] Amy Winther: crazy for different reasons. They're both crazy. Our kids like to wake up at around five, between five to six, so it is a long morning, but we have more energy [00:58:26] Amy Winther: after maybe the 6:00 AM hour. [00:58:28] Amy Winther: The evening is more of a how are we getting through this next time period. [00:58:35] Amy Winther: Yeah. [00:58:35] Amy Winther: there's literally not a, a spare moment. Yeah. [00:58:38] Adam Fishman: Okay. All right. Staying with you on this next one, Amy. Is there a domestic task that you believe that you are elite at? Like 10 outta 10? This is your, your best task. [00:58:50] Amy Winther: Oh, wow. yeah, I'm good about getting our, I guess this isn't really a household desk, but, um, I'm good about getting us out of the house. [00:58:56] Adam Fishman: That's good. That's, [00:58:58] Amy Winther: taken the, I've, I've teaching Piper ice skating right now. We've taken the kids skiing early on. [00:59:06] Amy Winther: I remember having Brooks strapped to me when he was a newborn and teaching. I had Henry and Piper both Chris was receiving them at the, bottom of the mountain. I was sending them from the top of the mountain. And so, [00:59:18] Adam Fishman: Oh my [00:59:19] Amy Winther: I don't know. I think I'm good about, uh, I've taken the kids rock climbing, like I'm good about just, uh, getting us out there and trying things. [00:59:25] Adam Fishman: Fun taking kids, young kids. Skiing is a lesson in patience and perseverance for sure. okay, Chris. [00:59:35] Adam Fishman: Again, not to cause any arguments. What is a task that Amy thinks that she's elite at a parenting task, but in fact she is not. [00:59:44] Chris Winther: I think she would never say she's elite, but she is elite at avoiding changing poopy diapers. Somehow it, it falls to me [00:59:51] Chris Winther: every time. [00:59:52] Adam Fishman: I mean, [00:59:53] Chris Winther: nose. that [00:59:54] Amy Winther: Well, we, we agreed on that. [00:59:58] Adam Fishman: Uh oh. [00:59:58] Amy Winther: I think the thing is there is that we had aligned early on that with infants, that if I was doing all the feeding, he would do the diapering. [01:00:06] Amy Winther: And then I think the thing is, is that diapers just extend much further in times of year. Like [01:00:12] Amy Winther: not [01:00:13] Adam Fishman: so Chris got the short end of the [01:00:14] Amy Winther: diapers. [01:00:15] Chris Winther: I [01:00:15] Adam Fishman: You out, You [01:00:16] Adam Fishman: out, negotiated him on this one. Yeah. Yeah. [01:00:19] Amy Winther: was like years long he was [01:00:21] Amy Winther: signing up [01:00:21] Chris Winther: Yeah, [01:00:22] Adam Fishman: backwards from the end. [01:00:24] Adam Fishman: Um, so, okay. [01:00:25] Chris Winther: on me. [01:00:27] Adam Fishman: Okay. Which one of the two of you is more likely to invent a brand new family rule on the spot for your kids? [01:00:36] Chris Winther: Amy? [01:00:37] Amy Winther: Yeah. I'm more [01:00:38] Amy Winther: of the, this is the rule. [01:00:41] Adam Fishman: okay. what is the most difficult kids TV show that you've had to sit through? [01:00:45] Amy Winther: I mean, we just don't even go to places like Coco Melon or those types of [01:00:51] Chris Winther: yeah, [01:00:52] Amy Winther: Um, [01:00:52] Chris Winther: we've been scared away, so I haven't, I haven't watched it before. [01:00:56] Adam Fishman: the number one answer on this show is Coco Mellon, [01:00:58] Adam Fishman: by the way, so you're [01:00:59] Amy Winther: yeah, we just don't even watch it. Uh, but kind of in the same genre. I don't know. They all kind of blend together from like PJ Mass or. [01:01:07] Amy Winther: What's the one I really hate? The one where there's like that one female character. I'm like, have some diversity. Uh, sky [01:01:14] Amy Winther: is that [01:01:15] Chris Winther: Oh, [01:01:15] Amy Winther: Sky. The [01:01:17] Adam Fishman: Paw Patrol. [01:01:18] Amy Winther: I cannot stand Paw Patrol [01:01:20] Adam Fishman: she flies a, pink helicopter, I [01:01:22] Adam Fishman: believe. Um, [01:01:23] Adam Fishman: yeah. [01:01:24] Amy Winther: outlaw that in the family. [01:01:26] Adam Fishman: Yeah. okay. What, nostalgic, maybe this is one for both of you. What nostalgic movie can you just not wait to force your [01:01:34] Adam Fishman: kids to watch when they're old enough? [01:01:36] Chris Winther: Oh, Chris. I mean, this isn't a kid's movie, but I guess I watched it when I was like nine or something, or eight, Jurassic Park. I think that'll be awesome to watch. [01:01:46] Chris Winther: Um, just like it's my favorite movie, kids in Dinosaurs. Um, you know, the bad dreams they'll have, it'll be great. [01:01:52] Adam Fishman: Yeah. Okay. And then do either of you have like an absolute favorite kids movie, [01:01:58] Amy Winther: Oh, I love Paddington. All of the paddington's [01:02:01] Amy Winther: are fantastic. Watch 1, 2, 3, [01:02:03] Adam Fishman: Yep. [01:02:04] Amy Winther: was cracking up, pure joy watching those. [01:02:07] Adam Fishman: Okay, awesome. What about you, Chris? Do you, are you also a Paddington fan? [01:02:10] Chris Winther: I mean, I came to it late. I hadn't seen it until we had kids, but they are very good, and enjoyable. I think, you know, we've worked our way through Most of the Pixar stuff, and that's all good and, and also brings back memories, you know, watching Toy Story back in the day and, [01:02:23] Adam Fishman: Awesome. [01:02:24] Adam Fishman: Okay, last question. We'll see how aligned you guys are on this one. three kids, but you aren't big car people as far as I know. So what is your take on minivans? [01:02:37] Chris Winther: Love them. [01:02:39] Amy Winther: Hot topic. Hot topic. [01:02:42] Adam Fishman: Chris is team [01:02:43] Chris Winther: But you press the button, [01:02:45] Amy Winther: We have a minivan right now that way Chris bought, I feel like it's like driving a boat. I mean, I already don't like to drive. It makes me nervous, so it's [01:02:55] Amy Winther: so big. I don't know. We're, I mean, it's still an open debate because we didn't know if we wanted it or not. [01:03:01] Amy Winther: We leased it and we're like trying to figure out do we keep this? So it's kind of a [01:03:03] Amy Winther: daily decision. What do we do with this minivan? [01:03:06] Amy Winther: But I will say, here's, [01:03:08] Amy Winther: here's where my design eye comes in. So we have all these specs for the minivan we want, and the other reason why we leased the minivan is because that, there wasn't one minivan out there that had everything we wanted. And now they came out with the VW [01:03:23] Amy Winther: bus. Is that what it Is The [01:03:24] Amy Winther: Miniman Buzz. buzz. So that has everything we want, but it's not totally my vibe and it's a [01:03:30] Amy Winther: vibe. So I think we need the four wheel drive. 'cause we want to go up to the mountains. We want it to be hybrid. 'cause we also go on long road trips. So there's all these different requirements and for some reason you can't find one outside of the VW Buzz that has all those. [01:03:46] Amy Winther: So, to be continued on our [01:03:48] Amy Winther: minivan journey. But, [01:03:49] Adam Fishman: Well, [01:03:50] Amy Winther: had it, I can't imagine not having the [01:03:52] Adam Fishman: I, I, [01:03:53] Adam Fishman: think it's pretty, I think it's pretty handy. [01:03:55] Chris Winther: Yeah. [01:03:56] Adam Fishman: not have one, I'm told it's handy. So, [01:03:58] Chris Winther: The children with yours? Yeah. [01:04:00] Adam Fishman: on board with the minivan. Yeah. [01:04:02] Chris Winther: Yeah. [01:04:03] Chris Winther: I would say I was, I was probably 50 50 beforehand. I was never like anti minivan, but I was kinda like, oh, no minivan. But having driven it for a year, it's just like the space, the buttons, you know, everyone can sit in [01:04:15] Adam Fishman: yeah. [01:04:16] Chris Winther: and [01:04:17] Adam Fishman: Yeah. So you were [01:04:18] Adam Fishman: minivan curious, but now you're a convert, yeah. Cool. [01:04:22] Amy Winther: I'm still out. I'm still still testing the waters [01:04:26] Amy Winther: while we already have one. [01:04:27] Adam Fishman: Yeah. Okay. [01:04:29] Adam Fishman: Well, you know, [01:04:30] Adam Fishman: okay. [01:04:35] Adam Fishman: Well thank you so much, both of you for all the time today. Chris, Amy, it was such a pleasure having you on this show, and learning about how you structured your lives and, had a lot of laughs too. This was great. Thank you so much for [01:04:45] Adam Fishman: joining me. [01:04:46] Amy Winther: [01:04:46] Chris Winther: thanks for having us. [01:04:47] Adam Fishman: Thank you for listening to today's episode with Amy and Chris Winter. You can subscribe and watch the show on YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts. [01:04:56] Adam Fishman: Visit www.startupdadpod.com to learn more and browse past episodes. Thanks for listening, and see you next week.