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What I've Learnt - Barbara Kamler · WHAT I'VE LEARNT

0:06
SPEAKER_00: Love Regardless, the second collection from Melbourne-based author poet Barbara Camler, is an enthralling gallery of poetic portraits celebrating love that endures.
0:16
SPEAKER_00: It features a unique mode of storytelling whereby interviews with 14 couples are poetically crafted into rhythmic syllabic verse.
0:24
SPEAKER_00: For each couple, each poem explores the intimacy of first connecting and the various complications negotiated along the way, crushing pressures of sexual or racial norms, the challenge of chronic illness or disparate histories, and demands of extended family geographic distance or migration.
0:42
SPEAKER_00: Yet these are sanguine stories that transcend the trials of the everyday, making real the possibility of mutual love and joy over a lifetime.
0:49
SPEAKER_00: On my recent trip to India, I read the book cover to cover in a few hours.
0:54
SPEAKER_00: I kept reading my husband excerpts as so many gems about love and its many conundrums feature in this beautiful collection.
1:01
SPEAKER_00: I adored its raw and sometimes confronting tales of love lost and found and everything in between.
1:08
SPEAKER_00: The stories are truly immersive and brutally honest, sometimes uncomfortable, but often about loyalty, courage, dedication, and enduring connection.
1:20
SPEAKER_00: So, Barbara, welcome to the What I've Learned podcast.
1:24
SPEAKER_00: Thanks, Deb.
1:25
SPEAKER_00: It's lovely to be here.
1:26
SPEAKER_00: So your dedication is a gateway to the journey we're about to embark on.
1:32
SPEAKER_00: I'll just read a little excerpt from it.
1:35
SPEAKER_00: You sit with me at your dining tables, remembering your words invoke a space between past and present, when your bodies were younger, more flexible, and your dreams not fully formed.
1:47
SPEAKER_00: I ask you to answer, but soon you listen to one another, your memory calling forth hers, his story elaborating yours.
1:55
SPEAKER_00: Sometimes you interrupt, complete the other's thought.
1:59
SPEAKER_00: We move back in time, 20, 30, 50 years, back to other cities, other homes, to a moment, an echo of collision, this moment, no other.
2:10
SPEAKER_00: The moment when you meet.
2:12
SPEAKER_00: You laugh as you set time, place, location, and words burst from themselves you inhabited then.
2:19
SPEAKER_00: Barbara, this is a beautiful dedication and set the really beautiful tone to what we're about to embark on.
2:28
SPEAKER_00: And you take us on this incredible journey.
2:31
SPEAKER_00: Talk to me about your personal journey because I'm interested in how you decided to embark on this wonderful tale of love and endurance.
2:41
SPEAKER_01: It's I think every story has its um origins in some moment in the writer's life.
2:47
SPEAKER_01: For me, it was a massive moment.
2:49
SPEAKER_01: Uh, I was 52 years old.
2:52
SPEAKER_01: Um, I had been divorced for quite a long time and on my own, in and out of some not so great relationships, um, ones certainly that wouldn't last.
3:02
SPEAKER_01: And then I met Greg, the man who became my husband.
3:06
SPEAKER_01: I was 52, he was 54.
3:10
SPEAKER_01: We were invited to dinner uh on a Saturday night.
3:14
SPEAKER_01: Uh, there were 14 people there, and it turns out that 12 of them were married to each other, and we were not.
3:22
SPEAKER_01: Uh, it was a setup that we didn't understand um was in in motion, although I figured out fairly quickly.
3:29
SPEAKER_01: It took Greg a little while longer.
3:32
SPEAKER_01: Um and uh we had this really um extraordinary kind of meeting.
3:37
SPEAKER_01: I had really given up on finding love.
3:40
SPEAKER_01: I I was, you know, I had a beautiful son, I had a good a good profession, lots of great friends, and I just thought it's not happening.
3:48
SPEAKER_01: And um there he was.
3:51
SPEAKER_01: And after, you know, um one or two further meetings, we found we had so much in common um that it was shocking to us.
3:59
SPEAKER_01: We were both the eldest of three.
4:01
SPEAKER_01: Um, we had the same kind of relationship with our father and our mother.
4:05
SPEAKER_01: We were brought up in similar ways.
4:07
SPEAKER_01: Uh, we both were Jewish, but our first partners were not, and that had caused quite a lot of turmoil in both of our families to the point where we were not spoken to either of us.
4:17
SPEAKER_01: Okay, I didn't know that.
4:19
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so it's interesting.
4:20
SPEAKER_01: You know, we sent our we sent our sons to the same school.
4:24
SPEAKER_01: We could have been parked next to each other uh at school pickup um for a number of years, but we never met or ran into each other.
4:32
SPEAKER_01: And then there was this moment that's why I talk about collision when somehow you know things aligned.
4:38
SPEAKER_01: Um, our friends felt we should meet each other.
4:40
SPEAKER_01: We did, and it was extraordinary.
4:42
SPEAKER_01: And it's still 21 years later now, is a miracle to me that it's possible after having had quite a lot of drama and trauma in earlier relationships to actually meet someone who's compatible, who uh extends you, respects you and each and mutually, and uh that you can enjoy each other and and be good partners to each other.
5:06
SPEAKER_01: So I I really became obsessed, I guess, about how is it that people meet and come together, and how is it that they stay together?
5:16
SPEAKER_01: And I guess this was the kernel for the book Love Regardless, um, because I felt that there's so many stories um in our world on TV, social media, the books that we read, the magazine articles about young love or romantic love, love that, and then love that crashes, love that doesn't last, and all of the terrible trauma that comes with that.
5:41
SPEAKER_01: But what about the people who stay together?
5:44
SPEAKER_01: You know, what about the people who sustain love over the years?
5:48
SPEAKER_01: You know, are they just boring?
5:50
SPEAKER_01: You know, are their stories just uninteresting?
5:52
SPEAKER_01: Well, you know, why haven't, why isn't there a lot of um narrative about them?
5:57
SPEAKER_01: And so I thought, well, I'm certainly motivated by this story.
6:02
SPEAKER_01: And I thought, I'd like to talk to other people who may have experienced, you know, long relationships and probe into them and find out, you know, what was it like for them?
6:13
SPEAKER_01: Um and uh how did they meet and you know what were some of the key things that drew them together and kept them together?
6:20
SPEAKER_01: And how did they how do they deal with the inevitable problems that arise in every relationship or the stresses or the the difficulties?
6:29
SPEAKER_01: And um that's kind of what I set out to do.
6:33
SPEAKER_00: And well, you've certainly done that.
6:35
SPEAKER_00: You've certainly, you know, you've got a really great breadth of couples there, and and I found it quite riveting to read.
6:42
SPEAKER_00: I mean, love is a many splendid thing to use the sort of the archetypal expression, but it takes energy, loyalty, dedication, and in many of these stories that you have in the book, a lot of courage through really what seem, you know, when you start reading some of the stories and you just go, oh, they're so insurmountable what they have to deal with.
7:02
SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, how how did you navigate that?
7:07
SPEAKER_00: And I suppose, do you agree that it's just inevitable, as you've just said, it's pretty inevitable that most people will face some big challenges.
7:15
SPEAKER_01: Every couple in that book either had serious illness and long recoveries, the challenge of two of the couples had long distance, two, three long distance relationships between Canada and Australia, between Germany and Australia, you know, who had to sustain and didn't they met, they didn't plan to stay together, but they had to kind of negotiate that distance until it resolved itself.
7:39
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, which it didn't have, it may not have, like I'm reading that thing.
7:42
SPEAKER_01: May not have, absolutely may not have.
7:44
SPEAKER_01: Um, I think that's and professional challenges, you know, um, about how you negotiate the building of a career younger in your life with the the conflicts that may happen um and the demands of a relationship, the complexities of whether people decided to have children or not, you know, and the pressures from family and friends to do so.
8:05
SPEAKER_01: So there were there every every couple had something that they had to negotiate.
8:11
SPEAKER_01: And they, you know, and it it varied across their across ages, sexualities, religions, cultural differences, uh, whatever it was, every it's love regardless, regardless of the challenges.
8:27
SPEAKER_00: So, therefore, do you you know, courage probably seems courage of conviction and dedication and determination, but also I thought the themes pretty much indicated that you had to, there was a resilience theme throughout most of the stories, a tenderness.
8:44
SPEAKER_00: There seemed to be um a sensitivity that most displayed.
8:48
SPEAKER_00: This was just my take on it, but I'm sure yours, you know, um had had a different lens, but not dissimilar.
8:53
SPEAKER_00: Like you, you know, there wasn't really one that I thought, why did you stay?
8:59
SPEAKER_00: Why were you there?
9:00
SPEAKER_00: You know, like you didn't.
9:02
SPEAKER_00: You sort of there was something like you're in their corner all the time.
9:05
SPEAKER_01: Tell me a bit about yeah, I was just gonna read, I was just gonna read you just a little spec that kind of touches on that because um this is a the couple of calls and all the couples have pseudonyms, um, they've different names and their real names.
9:20
SPEAKER_01: Um, the people in their lives will know who they are, but it kind of takes at a level to say, you know, this is not absolutely true life.
9:27
SPEAKER_01: It's been mediated by me, it's their stories which I've crafted and created.
9:32
SPEAKER_01: But um, the couple, one of the couples who's been together the longest, together for 52 years, had terrible conflicts, particularly earlier in their marriage.
9:42
SPEAKER_01: I mean, he he needed to keep the peace at all costs, and she was very outspoken.
9:47
SPEAKER_01: He used to just die when she would speak her mind, even to send a cup of coffee back if it was too cold.
9:53
SPEAKER_01: And, you know, she felt he never defended her adequately in front of his parents, her, you know, and so there were a lot of things.
10:00
SPEAKER_01: And and the way I think it's interesting the way they talk about what changed for them.
10:05
SPEAKER_01: So I'll just I'll read you a speck from her.
10:07
SPEAKER_00: Yes, I'd love that.
10:08
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
10:08
SPEAKER_01: So Rosie says, the most profound change in my understanding of Saul's behavior, how often it stems from feeling bad about himself.
10:17
SPEAKER_01: When I see that small child with little mothering, told at age 10 to attend school and pretend nothing happened when his mother had a stroke.
10:26
SPEAKER_01: When I comprehend him, I can be different.
10:29
SPEAKER_01: No need to get irate when I see him with greater compassion.
10:33
SPEAKER_01: And he says, despite our many conflicts, we never wonder whether to proceed with the relationship, never look elsewhere for something better.
10:42
SPEAKER_01: There's too much shared history here.
10:45
SPEAKER_01: The glue that binds is not about being soulmates.
10:49
SPEAKER_01: It's making a choice to commit absolutely, no matter how we provoke or aggravate.
10:55
SPEAKER_01: And is that the key, do you think?
10:57
SPEAKER_01: Is that the key?
10:58
SPEAKER_01: Well, certainly that is that is for some of the people, it's just it's a decision not to go elsewhere.
11:04
SPEAKER_01: Evacuate.
11:05
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, to not evacuate, actually, in times of crisis.
11:09
SPEAKER_01: And you know, really, uh a young woman who likes this book very much, who read it, said to me, Look, during COVID, she and her husband um were in a very small apartment, you know, locked up together.
11:21
SPEAKER_01: They were having a lot of trouble with each other and sustaining it.
11:25
SPEAKER_01: And all of her friends kept telling her how to get out.
11:30
SPEAKER_01: And she said, I wanted to stay in.
11:33
SPEAKER_01: I needed somebody to help me know how to stay in.
11:38
SPEAKER_01: And so it was very inspiring, she said, to read stories of people who did that, you know, to know that it is possible.
11:47
SPEAKER_00: Do you think there's a culture of excavation, though?
11:50
SPEAKER_00: Do you think that in some ways there is a culture that has emerged of we'll help you get out, it's okay, stand on your own two feet, you'll be fine.
11:58
SPEAKER_00: Some of which is valid because obviously there are people that do need to get out for you know safety or you know, for valid reasons.
12:05
SPEAKER_00: But I do think there has been an emerging culture.
12:08
SPEAKER_00: I thought about this when I was reading the book of when you know things get tough.
12:13
SPEAKER_00: Um, hey, you know what?
12:15
SPEAKER_00: There's there's plenty of people.
12:17
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, that's right.
12:18
SPEAKER_00: And that's also part of the contemporary, which has positive elements because it can be liberating.
12:24
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
12:25
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
12:25
SPEAKER_00: So people don't feel trapped, but it also means that the notion of longevity in you know, and love regardless, is in itself can be a conundrum because you just go, well, in some instances, is that the best decision for everyone?
12:39
SPEAKER_00: But obviously, in the in the couples that you've interviewed, that was the choice.
12:43
SPEAKER_01: And I wonder if uh Yeah, I think you're I think you're tapping into something that's not talked about too much.
12:50
SPEAKER_01: I mean, you know, is the idea of staying together old-fashioned, you know, no matter what?
12:56
SPEAKER_01: Um uh or, and of course, you know, I'm I'm a person who's divorced.
13:00
SPEAKER_01: I had to leave a bad marriage um for many reasons.
13:04
SPEAKER_01: Um, my husband is a divorcee, so it's not like I don't know about the need to end relationships, but I do think that um there's not a lot of cultural support to to bolster people to say, yeah, we know it's really terrible, but hang on, just hang on.
13:22
SPEAKER_01: You know, there's help, there's strategies about how you can do that rather than immediately uh think that we have to exit.
13:30
SPEAKER_01: And it's not, you know, it's not hard to understand why people feel they want to run.
13:35
SPEAKER_01: I mean, everybody feels that sometimes in any of course.
13:39
SPEAKER_01: I'm leaving, I'm going for a walk.
13:41
SPEAKER_01: Like seeing.
13:42
SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
13:43
SPEAKER_01: Fine.
13:44
SPEAKER_00: Deep breath, deep, very deep breath.
13:46
SPEAKER_00: I mean, I'm coming back with the dog, but just do it a little bit.
13:51
SPEAKER_00: Don't talk to me and don't ring me.
13:52
SPEAKER_00: Um, but yeah, exactly.
13:54
SPEAKER_00: And I think that part of that is also healthy.
13:57
SPEAKER_00: There is that that sort of, but but what I noticed with a lot of the the couples you interviewed was in some in some instances, I suppose I'd call it the tenacity of people just like some of those stories.
14:09
SPEAKER_00: I just couldn't, you know, keep reflecting, going, wow, how did they actually navigate that and what what kept them there?
14:16
SPEAKER_00: So what was what was sort of, I suppose maybe you could give me some highlight.
14:20
SPEAKER_00: You've just read a little excerpt, but maybe is there one or two stories that really or couples that really stood out?
14:26
SPEAKER_00: And then I want to talk to you about how you chose the couples, but let's first of all talk about, you know.
14:31
SPEAKER_01: Well, I think I think you're right onto it about the word tenacity, you know, that that willingness or commitment to hanging on.
14:39
SPEAKER_01: Um I think two of the stories, they all, they all, I love them all.
14:44
SPEAKER_01: They all um illustrate it.
14:46
SPEAKER_01: But one one is a very interesting one.
14:48
SPEAKER_01: So probably the youngest couple in the book.
14:51
SPEAKER_01: They met when, you know, she was almost out of, had just finished, you know, year 12.
14:58
SPEAKER_01: She was on a gap year.
14:59
SPEAKER_01: He was a Canadian, he was traveling, they met in Cairns, had this passionate, amazing eight months together, and just by fluke, because he moved into the apartment building where she happened to be renting, and you know, that was it.
15:14
SPEAKER_01: And then he went back to Canada.
15:17
SPEAKER_01: And from that moment on, they decided his life was there, her life was here, her family, everyone she knew, everything was here, same thing with him, and but they sustained this friendship through emails.
15:34
SPEAKER_01: They became email deep friends, and over the next 16 years, they had they entered other relationships, they talked to each other about the relationships, they uh had moments when they when one of them would say, Oh, we, you know, I should come to Australia.
15:56
SPEAKER_01: And she would say, No, no, we're doing the right thing, you should stay in that relationship.
16:02
SPEAKER_01: And then the other one would waver and they would, because they they wanted to do the moral really thing.
16:07
SPEAKER_01: They didn't, they they loved each other from afar, but they were in loving relationships with other people, which they felt they needed to stay true to.
16:15
SPEAKER_01: And then after maybe about, I don't know, 12 years, she she had a conference in New York and um decided to go visit him and his girlfriend in in Quebec.
16:27
SPEAKER_01: And she thought, what in the world am I doing?
16:29
SPEAKER_01: And so she landed in their life with the three of them.
16:33
SPEAKER_01: Uh, and finally, um, one she was a microbiologist, he was a translator who worked at home.
16:40
SPEAKER_01: And one afternoon, after um Imogen was touring, she's in his study, and he says, This is just too terrible.
16:49
SPEAKER_01: I still love you.
16:51
SPEAKER_01: I I can't I can't have you here.
16:53
SPEAKER_01: And she said, Oh my god, I love you too.
16:56
SPEAKER_01: Oh, I know.
16:57
SPEAKER_01: I I think I I remember that strong.
16:58
SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's I remember that.
17:01
SPEAKER_01: And then of course, once you say the words, once you stop pretending that it's not there, what where do you go from there?
17:08
SPEAKER_01: They held on for about another five years, and then bizarre, there was some bizarre event where the Australian couple were going to be in Europe, and so and uh so Luke was in uh where were they?
17:23
SPEAKER_01: I can't remember.
17:24
SPEAKER_01: So they were in Bordeaux and Imogen they were going to meet, and the plane in Bordeaux caught fire.
17:32
SPEAKER_01: So the two couples couldn't meet.
17:34
SPEAKER_01: I mean, talk about so the um Imogen's partner went back to Australia, the relationship was rocky anyway.
17:42
SPEAKER_01: Uh his girlfriend went to the conference and he took the bus to Prague, where she had her conference, and they got together.
17:50
SPEAKER_01: And they they had four days together, and that was it.
17:55
SPEAKER_01: They just realized that they could no longer live without each other.
17:59
SPEAKER_01: Without each other, and about a month later, he sent her uh uh an email with a receipt of a one-way ticket to his to Melbourne.
18:07
SPEAKER_01: What I've got goosebumps when I listened to that story because unrequited and yet unrequited and yet they just stay, they tried to stay true to the relationships they were in, the life they felt was the rational thing to do, and in the end they couldn't sustain it.
18:25
SPEAKER_00: And they are that I think happy is now what it's such it's such an incredible story, that because I'm sure that's not uncommon.
18:34
SPEAKER_00: I think the universality of the stories in in the book, even though obviously they're very detailed, and but but I think that you know it so many things resonate when you read them, you know, you you really recognize people you know and you know things that you've heard.
18:50
SPEAKER_00: And so I think that was really interesting, the way that you um selected a really good cross-section, I thought, of couples.
18:58
SPEAKER_00: Um, there was the one that really also moved me a lot was was it the cellist?
19:03
SPEAKER_00: I found that really moving.
19:05
SPEAKER_00: Can you just give us a little overview of that one?
19:07
SPEAKER_00: Because that really I can.
19:08
SPEAKER_01: I can.
19:09
SPEAKER_01: So I've called them George and Jamie.
19:11
SPEAKER_01: Um they're both double bass players.
19:15
SPEAKER_01: Um that's right, yeah.
19:16
SPEAKER_01: Of course there's not all that many jobs in Australia for double bass players.
19:23
SPEAKER_01: So he is a bit older, his career got started.
19:26
SPEAKER_01: Um, first he was hired by the Sydney Symphony, and she had trouble being seen as anyone other than his wife or his partner.
19:37
SPEAKER_01: I mean, she was constantly defined through him.
19:39
SPEAKER_01: And so she went to Europe um to build her career and was very successful, but she had to kind of physically, geographically go away to build who she could become.
19:53
SPEAKER_01: And he was he was devastated by it.
19:55
SPEAKER_01: I mean, he he could he said it was such a challenge for us.
19:58
SPEAKER_01: He couldn't do anything about it.
19:59
SPEAKER_01: He hated the fact that she was being defined through him, and yet he was helpless to to change it.
20:06
SPEAKER_01: Anyway, um, and then he got MS.
20:10
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's the that's the part that actually really, you know, that story.
20:15
SPEAKER_00: So to talk about okay, that's beautiful what he how they manage that.
20:20
SPEAKER_01: He uh Jamie says that she has the way in which she describes him overcoming this MS is pretty extraordinary.
20:28
SPEAKER_01: She but she said because he has a musical brain, she says, he's used to tuning into all the different parts of his body.
20:35
SPEAKER_01: And so she said he would for days on end look in the mirror and look at his hand and just will his pinky to move, small finger to move, and it would take him, could take him three weeks till he got a tiny bit of movement.
20:50
SPEAKER_01: He was absolutely dedicated to finding a way to circuit, you know, or get out of the um the disease and re-circuit his brain so that he could actually find movement.
21:04
SPEAKER_00: Because, you know, a double bass player who's got MS, it's it's like such a beyond you know, the imagery, and then her support of him.
21:12
SPEAKER_01: And her support of him was, you know, massive.
21:14
SPEAKER_01: But he then he kind of went off the deep end and he just decided that he couldn't cope and that he was just gonna run away.
21:22
SPEAKER_01: She was in Paris at the time because she was, you know, pursuing her career as well.
21:27
SPEAKER_01: And he sent her a telegram saying, leaving for Amsterdam with some new woman.
21:34
SPEAKER_01: Um, I'm out.
21:35
SPEAKER_01: And she thought this relationship is not gonna end on a text.
21:41
SPEAKER_01: Or, and so she flew back to Australia before he could leave.
21:44
SPEAKER_01: And she said, This is not gonna happen.
21:46
SPEAKER_01: We're gonna give it another six months, and then if you want to go, you go.
21:50
SPEAKER_01: And they rebuilt it.
21:52
SPEAKER_01: Um, and uh she stopped, she stopped touring and got a fantastic job with the Brandenburg Orchestra and So she got based in Australia and then they came together and they they finally they you know they married, had children, uh had two children, and um you know started they had their parallel careers.
22:14
SPEAKER_00: It's amazing.
22:15
SPEAKER_01: I mean and then she got a terrible, a terrible chronic disease, and then he had to support her through it.
22:22
SPEAKER_01: And hers was quite debilitating too.
22:24
SPEAKER_01: It was very debilitating, very debilitating.
22:26
SPEAKER_01: It was a total balance.
22:28
SPEAKER_01: Um, she just couldn't get focused, she couldn't get balance.
22:32
SPEAKER_01: She was months, months she had to be in bed.
22:34
SPEAKER_01: Isn't it unbelievable that we have we don't get ordinary colds?
22:38
SPEAKER_01: We have these insane neurological events, and yet, you know, when I met them, we sat in their garden and they have a little house in the garden where they play their music, and the two double bass instruments were kind of leaning against the wall, kind of touching each other.
22:56
SPEAKER_01: And I just thought there was everything about those instruments and and also the way they talk about playing music together that was just this incredible metaphor about how they came to regard you.
23:08
SPEAKER_01: And I can just I'll just read you a little speck of yeah.
23:11
SPEAKER_00: That was actually, I think, one of my favorite stories in the book.
23:14
SPEAKER_00: That was so beautiful and just moving.
23:17
SPEAKER_01: She says, um, or she's first says it's astonishing.
23:21
SPEAKER_01: Both of us suffer these cataclysmic neurological events.
23:25
SPEAKER_01: We don't get normal things like colds, yet you yet we recover.
23:30
SPEAKER_01: And um we were overcome, but we're filled with doubt in the creative process.
23:35
SPEAKER_01: One disaster on stage, we move move from hero to zero.
23:40
SPEAKER_01: Reputations dissolve like that, enter one bar early, no one notices, but you fall in a hole of despair.
23:46
SPEAKER_01: You can't say, sorry, I meant to play F sharp.
23:49
SPEAKER_01: The kids were vomiting last night, I had no sleep.
23:51
SPEAKER_01: We're highly exposed, but isn't it divine when we play together?
23:56
SPEAKER_01: And he says, I adore the way you throw yourself into the music, your passion intensely audible to the listener, that's rare.
24:04
SPEAKER_01: The power of communicating without words, a precious space, only we inhabit.
24:10
SPEAKER_00: It is just that is just really beautiful.
24:13
SPEAKER_00: And and and on that, on that note, excuse the pun, but on that note, but how did you select these couples?
24:22
SPEAKER_00: How did you find them?
24:24
SPEAKER_00: Was it challenging to cull who you were going to include?
24:27
SPEAKER_00: Was it hard to find them?
24:28
SPEAKER_01: It was harder to find than to cull.
24:30
SPEAKER_01: So I began with people I knew.
24:33
SPEAKER_01: I I asked um some friends and not so close friends because I wanted to see if the idea worked, because it began in an interview.
24:42
SPEAKER_01: Um, I would go to their house and inevitably we would sit at the kitchen table or dining table and start to talk.
24:49
SPEAKER_01: And many people said, no, we really don't want to do that.
24:52
SPEAKER_01: We're not really willing to expose the details of our lives.
24:56
SPEAKER_01: But I'd started with a few friends who were willing, and um, it was very it was exciting and promising because they really enjoyed it.
25:05
SPEAKER_01: They really loved the opportunity to be together and talk about, you know, their love and how they got together and and then remind try to remember it together and remind each other about what happened and what year was that, and where were you, and what do we do next?
25:23
SPEAKER_01: And and within you know, five or ten minutes, it was like I wasn't in the room.
25:27
SPEAKER_01: You know, they it was a very I I asked a few questions.
25:30
SPEAKER_01: First, how did you meet?
25:32
SPEAKER_01: It was always a good question.
25:34
SPEAKER_00: But it's like a catharsis for them.
25:36
SPEAKER_00: It was a catharsis for them because I find that even when I'm interviewing people, it is it is a very liberating experience to be able to share your story.
25:47
SPEAKER_00: Um, it sounds obvious, but actually it takes courage and bravery, as you've described.
25:54
SPEAKER_01: And and I think and also I think, you know, particularly because they've stuck together, to then look back 20, 30, 50 years uh at all that's intervening from the point of now where they are together and solid and you know, doing well together.
26:11
SPEAKER_01: Uh it's it was kind of a privilege for me to be listening in, but also a joyful kind of affirming experience for them.
26:20
SPEAKER_01: And so I wanted to try and move outside the parameters of my social world.
26:24
SPEAKER_01: I obviously wanted to get as diverse a group as I could.
26:28
SPEAKER_01: And I think I've mostly succeeded, but I would have liked to go further.
26:32
SPEAKER_01: So I I tended to ask people, it's a classic uh social science snowballing technique.
26:38
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, do you know anyone?
26:39
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, do you know anyone else?
26:41
SPEAKER_01: Do you know anyone who would be interested?
26:42
SPEAKER_01: And so it kind of expanded out and so organically rather than yeah.
26:46
SPEAKER_00: So and and also on this exploration, did you find that?
26:51
SPEAKER_00: Um, I suppose the question I have is do you think fate plays a big part in in this?
26:58
SPEAKER_01: Well, destiny, maybe you know destiny, serendipity, change, uh timing.
27:04
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
27:05
SPEAKER_01: I think timing was for me, you know, it was serendipity, it was well, kind of by chance, um, you know, but it was also the timing, you know, he was out of a relationship, I was out of a relationship, we had mutual friends.
27:18
SPEAKER_01: It was a moment when somehow we we came together.
27:22
SPEAKER_01: And um the stories of people meeting are pretty funny um across across the stories because you know, yeah, some of them are so a party, you're at a party, you see somebody, they look interesting, we start talking, and next thing you know, oh my god, you're really interesting, you know, or a dance with one Greek couple.
27:44
SPEAKER_01: Um there were these the uh youth groups had Greek dances.
27:50
SPEAKER_01: The woman in particular could stand them, she didn't want to go, but you know, it was her her group was hosting it.
27:56
SPEAKER_01: So she goes and she sees this guy at the door and she says, God, he doesn't even look Greek.
28:00
SPEAKER_01: And she turns to her friend, she said, as if I'm gonna meet someone here.
28:03
SPEAKER_01: She turns around and there he is, looking blonde and un-Greek.
28:08
SPEAKER_01: And you know, within days, they're together, you know.
28:13
SPEAKER_00: So I love those stories.
28:15
SPEAKER_00: And do you think you know, to people, and I do know, as I'm sure you do, some, you know, people who are either single or divorced or widowed or whatever their circumstances, and everyone seems always to get back and really, as you did, even though it was challenging, and and seek love and try and find a way through that next doorway.
28:38
SPEAKER_00: Do you feel hopeful having done these interviews?
28:41
SPEAKER_00: And even though it's about longevity, it's still what lessons have you learned about love lost and love found, I suppose?
28:50
SPEAKER_01: I think you can see that it it really takes teamwork, it takes compassion, a kind of tenacity, I think, and a kind of commitment that doesn't necessarily come easily.
29:03
SPEAKER_01: But and you know, I think they are hopeful stories.
29:06
SPEAKER_01: Um, I know I was single for a really long time and wondered how how was it that you met someone who you could finally be compatible with?
29:18
SPEAKER_01: And um I think it doesn't happen for everyone.
29:21
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think that's true.
29:23
SPEAKER_01: I think that's true.
29:24
SPEAKER_01: And I think people want to love and long for love, and then lots of people come to terms with being single or even prefer being single because of the you know the trajectory of their life experiences.
29:37
SPEAKER_00: But uh what about um what did you learn about long-lasting love in terms of do you think there were people that you came across in on your, I suppose, adventure that really they're in long-lasting relationships, but whether they are ones of love and endurance, or you are they, I'm sure there are people in long-lasting relationships that are not necessarily content.
29:59
SPEAKER_00: Did you come across anything like that?
30:01
SPEAKER_01: I I think I didn't because of the people who chose to speak to me.
30:05
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think that's right.
30:06
SPEAKER_01: So the the by virtue of who I think hanging in there and you know would rather not be there.
30:12
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
30:13
SPEAKER_01: Um weren't the weren't really wanting to share their share their story.
30:19
SPEAKER_01: Um, but I know my my aunt, my aunt, my father's sister was in a a pretty loveless marriage, I would say, for most of her life.
30:28
SPEAKER_01: And she did say to me, she said, look, if I was a younger, if I was now, if if the time was now and I was in that relationship and divorce was possible, she said, I would have been divorced.
30:40
SPEAKER_01: She said, But in my time, we didn't do that, you stayed together.
30:44
SPEAKER_01: So I don't think this book is not proposing that people should stay together in a loveless place where they can't find a way together.
30:52
SPEAKER_01: But I think it does want to celebrate the fact that a lot of people do that and they manage it.
30:58
SPEAKER_01: And maybe, maybe we can learn something from them.
31:01
SPEAKER_01: You know, there's no one secret.
31:03
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, exactly.
31:03
SPEAKER_00: Well, I think that's what we've learned, isn't it?
31:05
SPEAKER_00: And that's what's no one secret.
31:08
SPEAKER_00: Your stories show that.
31:09
SPEAKER_00: So, Barbara, just wanted to clarify with you.
31:12
SPEAKER_00: Now, the book is the the stories are written in a sort of a poetic, not in a prose style.
31:19
SPEAKER_00: Tell me why you chose to do it in that sort of rhythm.
31:23
SPEAKER_01: Okay, so uh they began as interviews, okay, conversations.
31:28
SPEAKER_01: And if anybody has transcribed conversations, you know that they're not very pleasant to read.
31:33
SPEAKER_01: Because so there has to be a way of lifting conversations.
31:38
SPEAKER_01: So it, I guess, as much as happens in play, so it sounds like people speaking, but that it's been crafted.
31:45
SPEAKER_01: And and I chose uh poetry.
31:47
SPEAKER_01: Uh, someone once recently said to me, poetry is what happens when you ask more of language.
31:54
SPEAKER_01: And so to lift the language, I used this form called syllabic verse, which means I counted syllables.
32:03
SPEAKER_01: So for every poem, I decided how many syllables there would be in each line, 12 syllables, say.
32:12
SPEAKER_01: So every line in that poem, if you counted them, which hopefully you won't, has 12 syllables.
32:19
SPEAKER_01: So you know, I went to the circus and I found a nice dog.
32:26
SPEAKER_01: That's 12 syllables.
32:27
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
32:28
SPEAKER_01: Why 12?
32:29
SPEAKER_01: Was that well, because I wanted different line lengths, just um some were 12, some were 14, some were 16.
32:36
SPEAKER_01: So they're quite various in the oh, that's okay.
32:39
SPEAKER_00: So that explains so so.
32:41
SPEAKER_00: Basically, when I was reading it at times, I was trying to follow that exchange.
32:47
SPEAKER_01: Like what yeah, one of them has seven lines, so it's quite short.
32:51
SPEAKER_01: And so at times it's narrow.
32:54
SPEAKER_00: So it's interesting because what it does is it corrals the language, yeah.
32:58
SPEAKER_01: That's right.
32:58
SPEAKER_00: Which absolutely so you're trying to give it a structure in which the stories are inhabited.
33:04
SPEAKER_00: That's right.
33:05
SPEAKER_00: Is that right?
33:05
SPEAKER_01: So it's absolutely right.
33:07
SPEAKER_01: So it brings it in, it's like a boundary, it corrals them.
33:11
SPEAKER_01: And then the challenge is to use the words, but elevate it, lift it.
33:16
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
33:18
SPEAKER_01: Look, listen for illusion, repetition, rhythm, um, occasionally a bit of rhyme to to lift it so that it it you know it sings on the page, and you and you, it's this is about love, and love needs language that enhances its telling, I think.
33:34
SPEAKER_01: And so that was my decision.
33:37
SPEAKER_01: It reads like prose, and if it works well, you shouldn't know that there are syllables.
33:43
SPEAKER_00: Well, it's interesting, it reads like prose, but you're aware that this is not a pro you you feel like you're being driven by a rhythm.
33:50
SPEAKER_00: There's no question.
33:52
SPEAKER_00: And and that's why I was interested because I was trying to work out, and the fact that you tried to, you know, use the 12 um metric as you described is quite a constraint on you.
34:03
SPEAKER_01: Well, it is but if you so, for example, if you have the word Australia in it, yeah, some of the poems that Australia can be Australia or it could be three, or you or you could do Australia.
34:18
SPEAKER_01: But once you decide, every time you use it, you have to have that many syllables.
34:22
SPEAKER_01: And if you if the line is such that you get to Australia and doesn't fit on the line, then you have to keep remake every time you change it, or the syllables don't fit the end of the line, you have to remake it all over again.
34:38
SPEAKER_00: So, was that did you find that constraining in any way?
34:41
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's constraining, it's very obsessive, but I actually I enjoy with the language.
34:48
SPEAKER_00: I was gonna say it's quite uh it's quite a um a brave endeavor because you want to make sure that you still maintain the authenticity of the voice and the exchange while also honoring the the rhythm.
35:02
SPEAKER_01: So that was the work of of of moving from transcript uh to poem.
35:08
SPEAKER_01: And um it's a kind of a very mixed genre form that I think has worked quite well.
35:15
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it has.
35:16
SPEAKER_00: It's very interesting.
35:17
SPEAKER_00: Very unusual.
35:18
SPEAKER_00: But it's sort of like it's actually almost like a screenplay of sorts, as you know, a poetic screenplay, if that makes sense, which is not, which is quite an art in itself.
35:28
SPEAKER_00: So well done, you, because that is not easy to do, but also maintaining the authenticity of the exchange, which I think actually at the end of the day, if in any way it it dilutes that exchange, then that's not working, but you've done it in a way that it does work.
35:43
SPEAKER_01: And I and I guess the compliment was that most of the people said everybody thinks that sounds like me, you know.
35:49
SPEAKER_00: That's a big compliment, yeah.
35:51
SPEAKER_01: And it's it still sounds like me, even though it's me crafting.
35:56
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, crafted, crafted me, yeah, crafted me in a very kind of contained, contained way.
36:02
SPEAKER_01: So that was really part of the fun of it for me, I have to say.
36:05
SPEAKER_00: Well, thank you so much, Barbara, for joining us on the What I've Learned podcast.
36:08
SPEAKER_00: I've actually loved chatting to you and I love the book.
36:11
SPEAKER_00: Um, and I believe it's you've got a launch coming out up in October.
36:16
SPEAKER_00: I do, I do.
36:17
SPEAKER_00: People can buy the book online, you can buy it online.
36:20
SPEAKER_01: The Avenue Bookstore has many copies.
36:24
SPEAKER_00: Great.
36:24
SPEAKER_00: Well, it's a wonderful, wonderful book.
36:27
SPEAKER_00: You should be very proud.
36:28
SPEAKER_00: And I really thank you for your time and for sharing how you went on this journey.
36:33
SPEAKER_00: And thank you for your thank you for your thoughtful questions.
36:37
SPEAKER_00: Oh, absolute pleasure.
36:39
SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
36:40
SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
36:41
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
36:47
SPEAKER_00: Thanks so much for listening.
36:49
SPEAKER_00: The What I've Learned podcast will now be coming to you weekly, with new episodes released every Tuesday.
36:55
SPEAKER_00: I'm blessed to have so many wonderful guests coming on the show.
36:58
SPEAKER_00: So check out my What I've Learned Instagram for updates.
37:02
SPEAKER_00: Meanwhile, stay tuned, kind, and curious.
37:05
SPEAKER_00: Love Dev.