Latest / Founder Mode / How to Bootstrap Your Tech Team Using AI with JJ Zhuang

Transcript

How to Bootstrap Your Tech Team Using AI with JJ Zhuang · Founder Mode

• 0:00
  I don't know what happened. You're right, one of the air
• 0:04
  tubes pop. Oh, this door.
• 0:06
  No way. Like the glass exploded.
• 0:09
  I thought somebody was shooting at me.
• 0:10
  No, dude, I thought I was like, bro, you took them tired.
• 0:13
  That's intense. That's intense.
• 0:15
  Like I think that I was too excited.
• 0:18
  Yeah, the pressure from your excitement caused the window to
• 0:21
  burst. That's amazing dude.
• 0:22
  That's a while. And we're back with another
• 0:35
  episode of Founder Mode. Yeah, we're digging into how
• 0:37
  scrappy founders build world class products with lean AI
• 0:40
  powered teams. Kevin, when a founder is staring
• 0:43
  at an empty GitHub repo, what's the bigger hurdle?
• 0:46
  Hiring that first engineer or trusting AI to write version 1.
• 0:51
  That's a tough call. I mean, when Javier, JJ and I
• 0:53
  built a complete and we're less than 15 people and it was, you
• 0:56
  know, very much about the people, nothing like the AI we
• 1:00
  had today. But but it's a balance.
• 1:03
  I mean, today the tools and I mean, we've talked about V0 and
• 1:06
  Devon and we'll probably get into that later today.
• 1:10
  It's incredible what they can do.
• 1:13
  And so I think the, you know, the risk for a start up that
• 1:15
  hires too fast before they've automated some of these things
• 1:17
  is could really be a a game changer or a game ender.
• 1:21
  Yeah, exactly. I've seen, I've seen some folks
• 1:24
  make that mistake. And I think ultimately the
• 1:27
  conversation with JJ will illuminate the right way to
• 1:29
  think about this and, and how to hire.
• 1:31
  So I'm, I'm pretty stoked about it.
• 1:33
  So from zero to a $200 million exit through a pandemic, IPOJJ
• 1:38
  knows how to build a win. So let's let's hear how he
• 1:40
  thinks about bootstrapping tech teams, where to sprinkle AI 1st,
• 1:44
  and why smaller might actually be faster.
• 1:52
  JJ, welcome to Founder Mode. Great to have you here.
• 1:54
  Happy to be here. Yeah, we're, we're pretty
• 1:56
  excited to have you, JJ. You've been building tech for a
• 1:59
  long time. Tell us how things are different
• 2:02
  at this moment in terms of how you build teams.
• 2:05
  OK. Yeah, I think that it's quite
• 2:08
  different now because, you know, we used to think that the best
• 2:12
  team you wanted like a, you know, certainly always the best
• 2:15
  people, right? But how we define best people is
• 2:19
  kind of changing in my mind because can I even remember that
• 2:23
  when we were at Accompli, we used to sort of like design all
• 2:27
  these tests, right? Like, so when we interview,
• 2:30
  let's say, engineers, we put through these, put them through
• 2:34
  these loops and see like who can crush all the questions?
• 2:39
  I would not interview people this way anymore because we used
• 2:43
  to just focus on what people know, you know, what their
• 2:47
  expertise, where their expertise is.
• 2:50
  And you know, we hope that we have the, you know, best iOS
• 2:54
  guy, the best Android guy, the best is like a database guy.
• 2:58
  This guy's the DevOps guy now I think, you know, I just want to
• 3:03
  find the best generalists, right?
• 3:06
  And that's the best way to build a team because, and we want
• 3:09
  people who have good intuition, but more importantly also
• 3:15
  they're just, you know, more informed that they they're
• 3:17
  always staying on top of everything, learning new things
• 3:21
  really, really fast. And you know that that's the
• 3:25
  best way to build a team. Take us back to day one at
• 3:29
  Accompli. I mean, we're about to build
• 3:31
  what, you know, becomes Outlook mobile and, you know, when
• 3:33
  Microsoft drops a boatload of cash on us.
• 3:36
  And how is that different compared to this sort of like AI
• 3:39
  playground we're in now? Well, yeah, I, I don't think
• 3:43
  they when we knew that that's the outcome, right.
• 3:45
  But it is quite amazing that going from just the first line
• 3:50
  of the code all the way to 500 million users in a few years.
• 3:57
  But you know, it's day one we were really all about, OK, how
• 4:03
  do we put together an All Star team, right?
• 4:06
  And you know, in that case we did have, we did find that, you
• 4:09
  know, all the best people, right?
• 4:11
  There was indeed the best iOS engineer, the best Android guy,
• 4:16
  and I was supposedly the best e-mail guy.
• 4:20
  And you know, because I built a e-mail server and a e-mail
• 4:26
  client before that, right? And then I didn't know a lot of
• 4:30
  tricks about like, you know, how do you squeeze out every ounce
• 4:34
  of performance from these standard e-mail protocols
• 4:37
  because, you know, otherwise how can your e-mail app be better
• 4:42
  than other people's e-mail app, right?
• 4:43
  What differentiates us? And remember that we had to
• 4:47
  like, you know, it's even just on the technical side alone,
• 4:51
  right? It's like you have to overcome a
• 4:55
  lot of different challenges. You know, even though people
• 4:59
  think that, OK, mobile, like the iPhone came out, I think that
• 5:06
  2007, right? And we were building the mobile
• 5:09
  e-mail app in 2013. So that's like, you know, a few
• 5:13
  years in between like 6 years is a long time.
• 5:15
  But still, at that time, building the most complex app on
• 5:22
  iOS Android was hard. It, you know, the, the, all, you
• 5:26
  know, the building blocks, the, the, you know, we take for
• 5:29
  granted today didn't exist, right.
• 5:31
  So I remember things like, oh, you know, a lot of users have
• 5:35
  100,000 emails in their inbox. And I mean, Kevin always has
• 5:39
  zero because he's a inbox zero guy.
• 5:42
  But like the, the rest of us, we always have like all the emails
• 5:46
  in the inbox read. And so how do you allow people
• 5:49
  to kind of like infinitely scroll as fast as they want, but
• 5:53
  still like be able to load everything really fast right
• 5:56
  over high latent network and, you know, sort of a small screen
• 6:02
  and also, you know, just low memory as well as like a, you
• 6:06
  know, battery life, right? All these combinations.
• 6:09
  How do you overcome these type of things?
• 6:11
  So JJ, we were talking about, you know, the headwinds back in
• 6:15
  2013, building an e-mail app against all of the like kind of
• 6:18
  tech that was required to do best in class mobile development
• 6:22
  on iOS back then. So let's Fast forward and let's
• 6:25
  talk about AI and your time at Instacart and how you were able
• 6:30
  to leverage AI even in the earlier days of people using AI
• 6:34
  to really kind of stand out and separate what Instacart was
• 6:37
  doing from the competition. To be honest, we didn't really
• 6:40
  think that much about the competitions because it's always
• 6:44
  about how, how to better serve customers, right?
• 6:48
  This is the same, you know, when we were going through the Kevin,
• 6:53
  you remember like, you know, when we're going through the
• 6:56
  crazy growth period during the pandemic, right?
• 6:59
  Especially the early stage of pandemic lockdown, that was
• 7:02
  crazy. And you know, the, our mind was
• 7:04
  always like, how do we ship faster and how do we serve
• 7:08
  customers, right? So, you know, after the pandemic
• 7:14
  when things such as GitHub hop pilot became a thing, that was
• 7:20
  one of the decisions we made very early on, right?
• 7:23
  Because you know, it's always about to running faster.
• 7:25
  So something like the AI tooling, coding tooling was like
• 7:31
  the first glimpse, right? Oh, this will actually help the
• 7:35
  team run faster. So we gave access to everyone
• 7:40
  immediately. Certainly not not everyone used
• 7:42
  it because at the time people were still thinking that OK, I'm
• 7:45
  a better coder than this, right. So, but a lot of people use it
• 7:49
  and then later on quickly, you know, also gave everyone access
• 7:54
  to cursor and you know, these numbers are now a few years old.
• 8:00
  So I, I feel comfortable quoting them.
• 8:02
  But you know, I think that in first three months after people
• 8:06
  start to adopt these tools, where we see across the team the
• 8:10
  number of lines generated by AI was, you know, very quickly 20%.
• 8:15
  And by now and then that is think considering at that time
• 8:20
  the tools were very limited, not that great.
• 8:22
  So today, you know we're looking into really like more than half
• 8:26
  of the code being generated, right?
• 8:28
  I mean with AI doing all the heavy lifting, do we even need
• 8:31
  Rockstar engineers anymore on day one or can you just hire an
• 8:33
  average dev and let the machines do all the magic?
• 8:38
  I I, I don't know, like it really depends on like how you
• 8:42
  define what does average dev mean, right?
• 8:44
  Because in the end it's about, you know, I have to say that
• 8:51
  how, how do I put this? The skill set required is
• 8:55
  slightly different, right? Because it's sort of like,
• 9:02
  what's a good analogy? It, it's, it's, it's like, you
• 9:06
  know, if you're working a factory where you know,
• 9:11
  everything's manually done, then you have to find the people who
• 9:14
  can carry a lot of load or I can move things around.
• 9:18
  But if it's, you know, automated factory and there's a lot of
• 9:24
  robots deployed and then you probably want to find people who
• 9:29
  can keep track of fast moving events in the factory floor,
• 9:33
  right? Not like anyone who can lift a
• 9:36
  lot of weight. So same thing with, you know,
• 9:40
  using AI tools. You just want people who have a,
• 9:45
  you know, deep understanding of what how to the methodology of
• 9:50
  building software, but not necessarily the people who can
• 9:53
  type the fastest or remember all the details of, you know, the
• 9:58
  syntax of the programming language or the tricks of the
• 10:01
  programming language. Those things start to get pushed
• 10:04
  into the background, right? So the skill set is changing,
• 10:07
  but you still need, at the end of the day, the best engineers.
• 10:10
  Just how you define them is different now.
• 10:13
  I know there's a little fight happening right now between the
• 10:15
  two of you about a certain AI coding tool, and I'm really
• 10:18
  hopeful that we're going to get into that.
• 10:19
  Yeah. So, so that, that's a good one.
• 10:22
  I, I think that, you know, everyone can learn this, right?
• 10:28
  And the important thing is to learn, you know, to develop the
• 10:32
  new intuition. Like how do you harness these
• 10:35
  things? And different people come to the
• 10:40
  intuition intuition differently, right?
• 10:42
  So you know, for, you know, some people say, oh, I have this
• 10:49
  intuition because I trained my own LLM, right?
• 10:52
  So that's great. But it doesn't have to be that
• 10:54
  it can be like you just spend a lot of time to build your hobby
• 11:02
  companion bar and you became sort of like the best GPT
• 11:06
  whisperer, right? So it doesn't matter how you got
• 11:10
  there. It's just that like you, you,
• 11:11
  you need these skills and you know, training the existing team
• 11:16
  totally is doable because it, it doesn't really take, it's not a
• 11:20
  rocket science and you can learn these things relatively fast.
• 11:23
  Yeah, Jason alluded to it, but I think I've been loving Devin
• 11:26
  lately and JJ saw like the wrath of my Devin use sort of spread
• 11:30
  across and sort of infect some of the code bases that we've
• 11:32
  been working on together. And I think you're right.
• 11:35
  Like I think like it's funny because I think we're, you know,
• 11:39
  I'll be honest, I got overextended in some senses is
• 11:41
  that Devon works great for things I understand well.
• 11:44
  So I've always been like front end ish, sort of like building
• 11:46
  websites and doing a lot of the sort of secondary coding stuff,
• 11:50
  but having it go in and touch sort of code where, you know,
• 11:54
  sort of full stack or deeper back end engineers, I think is
• 11:57
  struggled, but it's it's interesting, right?
• 11:58
  And so I think, you know, beyond the obvious, like, what else did
• 12:01
  have you seen like where, you know, building text kind of
• 12:03
  fundamentally changed in this AI era?
• 12:06
  Devon or Cursor or the all these coding tools, right You can see
• 12:10
  that there are very quickly emerging that all these
• 12:14
  different kind of mindsets, right.
• 12:19
  So if you think about things like Cursor and Winsurf, which
• 12:26
  is like another version of Cursor or our friends company
• 12:30
  augment, right? And all these are sort of like a
• 12:34
  copilot style in your IDE and kind of like a helper tools,
• 12:40
  right? So that the main driver is still
• 12:43
  the engineer and they, they, they use these tools.
• 12:46
  But the emerging tools such as Devon and now open eye codecs,
• 12:51
  I, I think they released it only a few days ago, right?
• 12:55
  That's start to shift to a slightly different paradigm.
• 12:58
  So that paradigm is like a, you treat AI now as your, your
• 13:04
  server tool, that who, who does the pair programming with you.
• 13:08
  You treat them as another dev on the team, right?
• 13:12
  And then, you know, they push PR, you review them and so on.
• 13:16
  So I think that we are in this weird moment when AI is like
• 13:20
  really, really useful, extremely useful to almost too useful to
• 13:23
  be dangerous, right? But at the same time not very
• 13:26
  reliable. So it cannot really do things
• 13:30
  fully autonomously. So the the paradigm between sort
• 13:33
  of like a copilot paradigm and the the independent, another dev
• 13:38
  on the team paradigm, we are quickly moving toward that, but
• 13:42
  not there yet. This is why Devon may not work
• 13:47
  the best today yet for a lot of tasks, but I'm sure that you
• 13:52
  know in a period of time everyone will be on the other
• 13:55
  side. Yeah, you mentioned Augment.
• 13:57
  So Scott Dietzen's our friend and he's the CEO of Augment.
• 14:00
  And one of the quotes I just saw him post was that, you know, a
• 14:03
  few months ago, 100% of their LLM calls were going from chat,
• 14:07
  meaning, you know, interactive developer coaching it.
• 14:10
  Now they're seeing 3% from chat and 97% from Magentic.
• 14:14
  So basically their agent model, which is sort of similar to
• 14:17
  Devon. And so the idea that I think a
• 14:19
  lot of developers are trying this, I think it also, you know,
• 14:22
  sort of feeds the LLMS and the companies that are charging on a
• 14:25
  per use basis because clearly like having lots of agentic
• 14:28
  calls over and over and over. What's the dumbest mistakes?
• 14:31
  I mean, switching gears a little bit that you've seen like
• 14:33
  founders make, you know, when they try to like jam AI into
• 14:35
  their startup. I wouldn't say dumb mistakes,
• 14:37
  but everyone makes mistakes. But I think that, you know,
• 14:42
  first of all. It's you using Devon for
• 14:45
  everything, Kevin. Yeah, I'll answer the mistake.
• 14:48
  That's the dumbest mistake. No, I'm just.
• 14:49
  Yeah. Well, Devon is Kevin's brother.
• 14:54
  Devon and Kevin. That's right.
• 14:56
  Yeah. But you know, I think that the
• 14:58
  the first thing is for start from the first of all, it's all
• 15:02
  about like what problem he's trying to solve, right?
• 15:04
  AI is just a tool at the end of the day.
• 15:07
  And you know, other when people talk to me about their business
• 15:12
  ideas and then very often I get excited if it is not AI and you
• 15:18
  know, so it's all about what problem to focus on, right?
• 15:23
  But the second piece is small team, especially if it's, it's
• 15:29
  not that the one AI mistake you make.
• 15:32
  It's like if you're not using AI for everything, that's a mistake
• 15:39
  because that's the, you know, leveraging all the tools, no
• 15:42
  matter how imperfect they are, there's always a best of breed.
• 15:46
  And that you, if you pay enough attention, you can use it for
• 15:50
  everything right from like cut coding to writing your pitch
• 15:53
  deck to running the team right, just about everything.
• 15:58
  And so whoever's the most inventive and can leverage the
• 16:04
  tool the best, we'll run fast and we'll win.
• 16:07
  Yeah, about 90% of my conversations with with Kevin
• 16:10
  are geeking out of the different ways that the two of us are
• 16:13
  using AI in every aspect of our life.
• 16:15
  So we are you are preaching to the converted.
• 16:18
  I think. You know, one of the things I
• 16:20
  noticed is going on with you right now is you you've talked
• 16:23
  about kind of taking some time for, for learning and discovery,
• 16:27
  which is a little corporate speaky.
• 16:29
  So like, tell us, what are you actually working on?
• 16:31
  What are you digging into right now and and how is it changing
• 16:35
  how you view the world? I love the contrarian take by
• 16:37
  the way of like, if it's not AI, I'm really interested, but like
• 16:40
  realistically, what is? What does it mean?
• 16:41
  What does learning in discovery mode mean for you right now?
• 16:43
  What? What are you doing?
• 16:44
  First of all, back to coding, because I in my career, I took
• 16:52
  break from coding twice, right? The first time I, I took a five
• 16:57
  year break and then Kevin and I start and I was third Co founder
• 17:01
  Javier Sottero, the three of us, we started a company and day one
• 17:05
  I was like, well, I need to code again.
• 17:08
  I haven't coded for five years. And that was really, really hard
• 17:12
  to, to get to the muscle memory back to be able to type again,
• 17:15
  right? Because it felt like almost like
• 17:19
  an idiot, right? And was very scary.
• 17:23
  But the second time is like, you know, last year I started to get
• 17:27
  back into it. And this time I haven't quoted
• 17:29
  for like, you know, not exaggerating, almost 10 years,
• 17:33
  right? And this time it's so much
• 17:35
  easier. It's not because I, you know,
• 17:39
  don't have the muscle memory anymore, right?
• 17:41
  It, it, it's not because I still have the muscle memory.
• 17:44
  It is gone. But The funny thing is the
• 17:46
  muscle memory is the part of that AI can actually replace the
• 17:49
  best. And so we got into that.
• 17:53
  And then I think that's, you know, taking some time off from
• 17:57
  my regular work and focusing on like learning these things,
• 18:01
  right? Is, you know, you can certainly
• 18:03
  say that we can all have intuition about like how this
• 18:07
  thing is evolving and how fast things are changing, Like all of
• 18:11
  us have that, right. But when you actually day in and
• 18:14
  day out to writing, coded using these tools and see how these
• 18:18
  tools evolve, you just, you know, have better intuition
• 18:22
  like, you know, and I really enjoy that part.
• 18:26
  It's funny, I randomly was reviewing APR before we got onto
• 18:30
  this and I happened to go onto my GitHub profile and I have
• 18:33
  more green boxes on my GitHub profile in the last month then
• 18:39
  in the last 10 years. And it's crazy.
• 18:42
  Like partly it's all Devin, let's be honest.
• 18:44
  And then but it's but it is to your point, like it's not only
• 18:46
  fun, but it's way easy again, in terms of like, you know, just
• 18:49
  doing things and seeing. And it reminds me back to when I
• 18:51
  got out of college and it was like I was editing websites or
• 18:55
  PHP. And it's like you check
• 18:56
  something in, you save it, you refresh the browser and it
• 18:58
  works. I think that it's not one thing,
• 19:01
  but it's mainly the mindset, right?
• 19:03
  It's like for there are there are people who already have
• 19:09
  found their product market fair, they're working on something in
• 19:13
  that sense sense, then it's execution, right?
• 19:16
  It is all about how to leverage, you know, the best team weighs
• 19:21
  the best tools to run as fast as possible.
• 19:24
  But for, you know, founders who are still exploring and we do,
• 19:30
  you know, Kevin, you and I talk to a lot of people in that stage
• 19:34
  as well, right? I find that, you know, we used
• 19:39
  to feel that there's a lot of limitation.
• 19:41
  Everything takes a lot of time, a lot of effort to build
• 19:45
  anything. And in order to figure out, OK,
• 19:48
  where's the product market? If I have a good idea, I think I
• 19:52
  have a good idea, right? To even get to a stage that I
• 19:55
  have a demo to show customers and to understand that is that
• 19:58
  going to be something valuable, right?
• 20:01
  Takes a lot of, you know, effort and therefore capital.
• 20:05
  But now it becomes like, you know, you can go from idea to
• 20:10
  something that's working and put in front of customers in almost
• 20:14
  no time in the very low effort, right?
• 20:17
  So it, it kind of reminds me of this phrase, like we, we say,
• 20:25
  what's the word fast fashion, right?
• 20:27
  It's like, oh, quick fashion, fast fashion.
• 20:30
  And you know, where does that come from?
• 20:32
  It's like, you know, social media gives you the trend.
• 20:34
  Then you have globalized labour, you have supply chain
• 20:40
  optimization, all these things culminating to this moment.
• 20:43
  You can't finally have fast fashion, right?
• 20:46
  So it feels like AI is now giving us fast software.
• 20:50
  So you can really explore so many different ideas in very
• 20:55
  short period of time if you have them and you can realize all of
• 20:59
  them, right? And then just put in front of
• 21:02
  people and you can almost like be all things to all people very
• 21:06
  easily, right? And then, you know, we were
• 21:08
  talking about things like Devon, things like codecs, right?
• 21:15
  Eventually when these things become really mature, then you
• 21:19
  know, what is the role of a engineer or product person or
• 21:24
  the entrepreneur, right? Eventually it becomes like, you
• 21:28
  know, it's almost like the artist who is, you know,
• 21:34
  creating art but just giving instructions right to the
• 21:38
  canvas. And then, you know, it's like
• 21:42
  that may be a little bit abstract.
• 21:44
  And so it's more like, you know, you're a movie director, right?
• 21:48
  On the set, you're basically telling the actors what to do
• 21:52
  and how to actually, you know, act better or, you know, bring
• 21:58
  more emotion into it, right? So we will soon get into that
• 22:02
  world. It's like today, it still feels
• 22:04
  a little bit like a fantasy, but we'll get there.
• 22:07
  And everyone needs to become a movie director all.
• 22:11
  Right. Final question, What you know
• 22:13
  2025 AI trend is total BS and you know how should founders
• 22:17
  kind of cut through the hype? This certainly a lot of hype,
• 22:20
  right, because we kind of live in this social media EE chamber.
• 22:26
  So so everything get like a just amplified everywhere.
• 22:30
  So you know, probably the biggest buzzword right now is
• 22:36
  agent. Everyone just keeps talking
• 22:38
  about agent even though I don't even know if they all mean the
• 22:42
  same thing, but everyone's like all multi agent agentic.
• 22:47
  By the way, not sure if you guys saw that.
• 22:52
  Was it yesterday or the day before Microsoft announced this
• 22:55
  thing called the Agentic web? I mean, I actually like the the
• 23:00
  word because you know, you do need a word for that kind of
• 23:04
  word or like when everything is M CP/M PC and so on.
• 23:11
  And you know, I think that even though there's a lot of this
• 23:20
  kind of hype, right, we tend to just like everything, we tend to
• 23:25
  over hype of something in the short term, because in the short
• 23:32
  term, all these things don't really work well yet, right?
• 23:34
  You have to put in a lot of work to still make them reliable.
• 23:39
  But at the same time, I think that to all of us make this
• 23:42
  mistake, right, including ourselves, which is to
• 23:46
  underestimate the hype today, because these things will become
• 23:53
  really magical, will be really change our lives.
• 23:56
  And you know, we're just not very good at, you know, non
• 24:02
  linear thinking, right. So in I'm, I'm pretty sure that
• 24:06
  in three to five years, the way we build software, the way we
• 24:10
  build tech will be very different.
• 24:12
  All right, where can folks find you and and follow your journey
• 24:15
  on all this stuff, JJ? On this podcast.
• 24:19
  Love it. That's good.
• 24:20
  That's the right answer. Kevin actually said that he's
• 24:23
  referred to you as Yoda a few times.
• 24:24
  So you didn't disappoint in that regard.
• 24:26
  Learn, learn interesting things about AI.
• 24:28
  We will so so any any links that you can share your what's the
• 24:33
  best place for folks to connect with you and and and and get in
• 24:36
  touch. I am on LinkedIn.
• 24:39
  I have AX account but I'm I'm more a reader on X than than
• 24:45
  publisher. Kevin is different.
• 24:47
  Thanks, JJ Appreciate the honesty and the Jeff.
• 24:50
  Thank you so much. Bye.
• 24:51
  That was a master class. JJ's rule of thumb?
• 24:54
  Fast software. It's blueprint for early stage
• 24:56
  founders. Yeah, I love the analogy that
• 24:59
  like the global supply chain and labor force is to fashion what
• 25:03
  AI is to software. It's just, you know, from fast
• 25:05
  fashion to fast software, it's awesome.
• 25:07
  Like it. It really helps crystallize for
• 25:09
  me how to think about it. Kevin, what were the key things
• 25:12
  to take away from this one if you're a founder listening?
• 25:14
  Yeah, a bunch of things. I think the the the first one
• 25:16
  was just this specialist roles now to like really looking for
• 25:19
  people that are adaptable generalists just in terms of
• 25:22
  fitting out an early AI team. And then we talked a bunch
• 25:24
  about, you know, our sort of challenges that accompli and you
• 25:27
  know, how that sort of shaped a large scale mobile app that, you
• 25:30
  know, became Outlook and then AI coding tools.
• 25:32
  I mean, we jumped into my, my friend, my fan favorite Devin
• 25:35
  Copilot cursor. And, you know, now these are
• 25:38
  quite frankly generating more code than not, right?
• 25:40
  You know, over 50% of the code that we're we're building today
• 25:43
  is, is from these and you know, we're seeing that across the
• 25:45
  industry and just this notion of a gentic AI as a full teammate
• 25:49
  versus like, Hey, it's like you're Co piloting, right?
• 25:51
  And it's kind of funny, you know, pilot analogy there of
• 25:53
  like, you know, who's flying the plane on this one?
• 25:55
  Is the code flying or is it, you know, is it on autopilot or is
• 25:58
  it on copilot mode? And then you know, of course,
• 26:00
  fast software, you know, that whole mindset of like, how do
• 26:03
  you exploit AI everywhere? And then you really got to like
• 26:06
  be careful and sift through the agent hype and make sure that
• 26:08
  you apply it, you know, sort of when it's ready.
• 26:11
  Yeah, if this sparks some ideas, fire it off to a founder who is
• 26:14
  hustling with a tiny crew. Yeah, Smash.
• 26:16
  Subscribe, drop a quick review and help more builders find the
• 26:19
  show. Links to J, JS, LinkedIn and X
• 26:23
  will be in every tool that we mentioned will be in the the
• 26:25
  show notes in the description. And next time, we're jumping
• 26:29
  from building lean teams to thinking about how commerce and
• 26:34
  direct consumer has changed across the logistics side of the
• 26:37
  business and D to C businesses. Yeah, we'll breakdown guerrilla
• 26:41
  growth tactics and kind of why they still matter in 2025.
• 26:44
  Remember, when you're short on headcount, the boldest move is
• 26:46
  to let AI take the night shift so your team can build smarter.