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How Israeli embassy staff shooting could impact Gaza war · The Fourcast

0:00
This was an attack on the Jewish Museum of Washington.
0:02
The shock waves of what happens here reverberate in so many
0:06
different places. I'm hearing utter despair.
0:09
I lived in Gaza for many years. Worse than hunger, worse than
0:13
knowing that there is no safe place to go, is the fact that
0:16
there is no horizon for this to end.
0:19
This entire posturing over will they or won't they recognize a
0:23
Palestinian state, I think is totally playing into Netanyahu's
0:26
hand. Israel doesn't feel the need to
0:29
end its subject allegation of Palestinians.
0:31
It will only feel that if it is pushed to.
0:38
Hello and welcome to the Forecast.
0:39
I'm Christian Guru Murthy. Last night in Washington, 2
0:43
Israeli diplomats were shot dead by a gunman outside the Jewish
0:48
Museum in the capital. And the Israeli government has
0:53
reacted with the fury that you would imagine, but they have
0:56
also blamed the reactions and comments of European politicians
1:00
like Keir Starmer and Emmanuel Macron in France for their
1:05
criticism of Israel. And they have effectively said
1:09
that what they have accused Israel of doing has been blood
1:14
libel and anti-Semitism and has led to this kind of attack in
1:18
which 2 Israelis have been killed.
1:21
All the while, of course, the crisis in Gaza continues.
1:24
A small number of lorries carrying aid has crossed the
1:29
border, but it's not clear how much of it has been distributed
1:33
yet. And in any case, it's a fraction
1:35
of the daily need. And the warnings of children and
1:40
adults starving in Gaza goes on. Joining me for this forecast,
1:46
the Palestinian journalist and analyst Noor Ode and the the
1:51
Israeli correspondent for the Economist, Angel Pfeffer.
1:55
Thank you both very much indeed for joining me.
1:57
Angel, can I ask you? I mean, the the Israeli Prime
2:00
Minister and his diaspora minister have been scathing
2:04
about European leaders and clearly blaming them for what
2:07
has happened overnight in Washington with this gunman's
2:12
attack. Is that how Israel will see it
2:15
broadly how how most people will see it there?
2:18
Well, there's a, there's a massive dispute within Israel
2:21
about the continuation of the war.
2:24
And I think that while you're, you're, you're seeing these
2:27
statements that are being made by Netanyahu and by other
2:30
ministers in English for international consumption.
2:33
It's very much about an internal debate about the government
2:37
trying to justify its plans and actions regarding Gaza and
2:43
trying to squelch the internal opposition.
2:47
And the recent polls have shown that over 60% of Israelis, so a
2:50
clear majority, are against continuing this war.
2:54
Because what people like Starmer and Macron have said, I mean is,
2:59
is nowhere near as strong as Israeli opposition politicians.
3:03
Well, it's always different when you hear it from your own
3:07
politicians, from your own people, when a debate is held
3:09
internally and when a debate is held outside the country.
3:13
And obviously more Israelis will feel protective of, of their
3:17
country. And, and when you know, when you
3:20
do hear things which are being said outside of Israel, and some
3:25
things are I think quite clearly are verging on anti-Semitism,
3:28
not what Keir Starmer says. I think what Keir Starmer's
3:31
criticism of, of Israeli actions, I think is very
3:36
measured. And I don't think anyone,
3:37
anybody in their right mind would accuse him of
3:39
anti-Semitism. But there are these tones which
3:42
do exist, I think quite widespread through a lot of the
3:46
protests that we've seen in the West in the last 19 months.
3:49
You know, to expect Israelis to be able to, at a time of war, to
3:53
differentiate between these things, I think it's perhaps a
3:57
bit of a high bar. And it is easy for politicians
4:00
like Netanyahu to muddy the waters in that way.
4:04
Noah, how do you think Palestinians will see what
4:07
happened in Washington last night?
4:10
Well, to be honest, the first reaction that I've seen from a
4:13
lot of commentators is that this diverts attention.
4:18
This is an attack that will deflect from the atrocities
4:22
being committed in Gaza. It will allow Netanyahu to
4:26
exploit them to focus on. Actually, there's a there's an
4:30
air raid siren here which you may be hearing in the
4:33
background, which probably means that there's a missile being
4:35
being launched from Yemen. I don't know if you can hear it,
4:38
but just just continue. But it may, it may intrude.
4:42
I mean, I mean, I'm in a safe room.
4:45
So you don't. Have to leave no.
4:46
No. Sorry, no, go on.
4:50
No, I think people, people, the first thing that people thought
4:55
of is how Netanyahu will exploit this, how Netanyahu will use
5:00
this attack to accuse anybody, calling out the crimes that are
5:04
being committed, accusing them of anti-Semitism, conflating the
5:09
criticism of Israel with anti-Semitism, which is both
5:13
dangerous and factually incorrect.
5:16
And so there is that fear and that anticipation, if you will,
5:22
judging by previous conduct of Israeli government, especially
5:26
right wing politicians like Netanyahu, that this is going to
5:30
happen. And and of course, sure enough,
5:32
this is what we've heard from the Israeli government.
5:35
We've heard them, you know, launch attacks at the Israeli
5:38
opposition leaders, telling them that their criticisms of the war
5:43
encouraged anti-Semitism, encouraged leaders abroad to
5:47
also criticize Israel and take action.
5:50
And that all of that is somehow fueling anti-Semitism and in a
5:56
way bringing that to the top of the news agenda.
5:59
While the the starvation, the blockade, the mass killings in
6:04
Gaza continue and the displacement in the West Bank of
6:07
course also continues to happen below the radar.
6:11
I mean, there's no suggestion at this stage that this had
6:14
anything to do with a targeted killing by Hamas or it's
6:17
supporters. In fact, the the suspect who's
6:19
been arrested seems to have a Latin name.
6:24
But obviously they are Israeli government servants, They are
6:27
diplomats. And Palestinians in Gaza are
6:31
being targeted if they have any connection to the Hamas
6:35
government there. So do you think people will be
6:37
horrified by this kind of shooting or will they say, well,
6:43
our people are being killed for, you know, any link to the
6:47
government? You know they are effectively
6:49
legitimate targets. I think that will cross many
6:53
people's minds. But to be honest with you, there
6:55
are far more pressing issues on the minds of Palestinians than
6:59
to focus on this attack, tragic as it were.
7:03
Israel has he carried out dozens, if not more of political
7:08
assassinations around the world for decades.
7:11
So this is not something that is an unknown entity, if you will,
7:15
for Palestinians. They've been targeted
7:17
politically and assassinated. Palestinian diplomats have been
7:21
killed in European capitals before.
7:24
And again, this is not going to be the top issue on Palestinians
7:28
mind. They're worried about their
7:30
loved ones getting a loaf of bread.
7:32
They're waiting for the announcement that some bakeries
7:36
may be operational, may have a limited number of bread, and
7:39
then they have to worry about whether they will have a chance.
7:43
They will be one of the few lucky ones who can actually get
7:46
to the bread before it runs out. That's the top of the agenda for
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Palestinians in Gaza, but also those you know outside of it,
7:54
like me, who are worried about their loved ones there.
7:56
Yes. And and I want to focus on the
7:58
situation in Gaza in in a moment, but and shell, I mean,
8:01
in terms of the targeting of Israelis outside.
8:04
I mean, this will have a sort of a terrifying effect on Jewish
8:08
communities around the world, I would imagine, in that people
8:13
will presumably feel they are potentially the targets of a of
8:18
a growing a growing fury and they will fear copycat kind of
8:23
killings. I mean, how, how concerned are
8:26
people by the fact that opposition to what Israel is
8:31
doing right now seems to be growing?
8:34
Well, it's not a new phenomena. We've seen this happen so many
8:37
times in the past. I mean, this was not an attack
8:41
on, I mean, the the casualties happened to be two employees of
8:44
the Israeli Embassy. But this was an attack on the
8:46
Jewish Museum of Washington, not on the Israeli Embassy.
8:49
That has to be made clear. And the shock waves of what
8:53
happens here reverberate in so many different places and impact
8:59
on so many on so many different communities and Jewish
9:01
communities around the world have.
9:04
And you know, we've you've seen that in Britain and you've seen
9:06
that in so many countries. And I recently did for The
9:08
Economist a piece going to a number of countries, talking to
9:12
Jewish communities and seeing these the the, the level of
9:16
security which they've been forced, not just by not just
9:21
themselves adopting it, but also the local police and governments
9:24
making sure that there's massive cordons of armed police around
9:29
every Jewish synagogue and school in many places around the
9:33
world. And not just in countries where
9:35
you would think Jews are vulnerable, but in, you know, in
9:39
stable Westerns. What hope would hopefully be
9:42
stable Western society. So this has now happened in
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Washington, the capital of the United States.
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It's not just some obscure outpost.
9:50
And as you mentioned, the guy who carried The Who apparently
9:53
carried this out wasn't, doesn't seem to be of, of Arab or Muslim
9:57
or Palestinian, just just said he's got a, a Latino name.
10:00
So the whole the, the people who are paying attention to this and
10:04
the people who are, who are being impacted by this are of
10:07
many diverse groups. It and, and the fact that we're,
10:10
that you know that you're even doing this podcast on this
10:13
conflict, which isn't in a one small place.
10:16
It's not just one small conflict.
10:18
It happens and it's affecting so many people.
10:21
And just now there was a missile launched from Yemen, which is
10:25
over 1000 miles away from here, a country which is even have a
10:29
border with Israel. It's just the, the way there's
10:33
so many ways in which this conflict is being perceived and
10:36
understood and reported upon and felt.
10:40
And as Nora said, each side will be magnifying its own victims.
10:45
And I, I think she's right. I don't think Palestinians in
10:49
any way will be thinking, well, poor Israelis who were, or
10:54
Israeli employees. I'm not quite sure if there were
10:57
citizens who were killed last night in Washington.
11:00
We have so many victims of our own.
11:02
And Israel has has been focused for the past 19 months on the
11:06
victims of, of the October 7th massacre.
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It really is kind of choose your, your side or choose your
11:13
victim sort of story. And as much as I think news
11:17
organisations try and cover the victims on both sides in with
11:23
equal empathy, with equal, with equal attention, A it's not,
11:27
it's not possible. And B, every side will be
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focusing on its victims, on its suffering.
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And that's to a very large degree what continues to fuel
11:38
this conflict. But is is the condemnation of
11:42
European leaders making Israelis think at all about what
11:47
Netanyahu is doing and criticize it?
11:50
You know, are the images of starving children getting
11:54
through to Israeli media in any in any sense?
11:56
And are people worried about it? You know, are they saying, you
11:59
know, that that sense that suddenly in in Britain now the
12:01
government is now saying, OK, this is intolerable.
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For 18 months it was tolerable, but now this is intolerable.
12:07
You know, is anybody in Israel having a similar kind of
12:09
reaction? There are some people, but it's
12:12
mainly on the margins because ultimately Israeli society has
12:16
been focused for the last 19 months.
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And we'll and we'll continue to be focused for the for the
12:21
foreseeable future on the suffering of Israelis.
12:24
And I think it's natural. I don't think there is a society
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anywhere in the world in any point in history which focused
12:31
on the suffering of the other side.
12:33
I mean, a society at war and this expectation that Israelis
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should be looking, I mean, I would love for Israelis to be
12:39
looking at the suffering on the Palestinian side.
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I'm, you know, beyond being a journalist, I'm a lefty liberal
12:45
Israeli. I would be very happy for my
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coat, for my, for my, for my fellow Israeli citizens to be
12:51
also looking at the suffering of this side.
12:53
But at the same time, I'm mindful that it's not something
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natural. Societies at war do not focus on
12:59
the suffering of the other side. And the reason that majority of
13:02
Israelis want the war to end, it's because of Israeli
13:05
suffering and because of Israeli hostages who have been held,
13:08
still being held in Gaza for over 19 months now.
13:11
And I think it's the same thing with the Palestinians.
13:13
Why would the Palestinians be focusing on the suffering of
13:16
Israelis society? No, I mean, I'd really be
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fascinating to hear of an example of any society which
13:23
looked at the enemy side with empathy at a time of war.
13:27
It just doesn't happen. And to expect that either of
13:29
Israelis or of Palestinians is to hold both of these societies
13:33
to standards where which are simply not natural and not
13:37
human. No, I mean, let's talk about
13:39
what's going on in the ground then.
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I mean, at the moment, after 11 weeks of an aid blockade, a
13:47
trickle of aid is getting in. But the situation is clearly
13:50
very dire, and people are also now being pushed again.
13:54
They're being displaced again as part of this Israeli plan
13:58
restated last night by Netanyahu to take over the whole of Gaza
14:04
security and move the Palestinians into a small area.
14:08
I mean, what? What are you hearing on the
14:09
ground right now? I'm hearing utter despair.
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I lived in Gaza for many years. I have lifelong loved loved ones
14:18
and friends there, and I've never heard them sound the way
14:22
they have the past few weeks. They are hungry, they are well
14:28
to do, they're better off than most people in Gaza, and yet
14:32
they can barely scrape one small meal a day.
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Many of them are grinding pasta and lentils in order to bake
14:42
some bread to give, especially the kids, something that they
14:46
can chew on because there's nothing else that they can do.
14:52
But the situation for the vast majority is much worse than
14:55
that. I I know, and I've seen people
14:58
pick kids picking leaves off of trees and eating them because
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there's simply nothing else to eat.
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And worse than hunger, worse than knowing that there is no
15:10
safe place to go, is the fact that there is no horizon for
15:14
this to end. And, and I think, you know,
15:18
speaking to what Angela was talking about, I think it's
15:20
important to highlight, Yes, it would be impossible for
15:24
Palestinians to focus on Israeli suffering or the shooting
15:27
incident. But Palestinians have been
15:29
following Jewish organizations and their voice that champions
15:35
their humanity and they they've been touched by it.
15:38
They do differentiate between Israel, their occupier, their
15:41
oppressor, and Judaism and and Jews around the world and they
15:46
know that they have allies among them.
15:48
It is very different, the dynamic for Palestinians as a
15:52
people under occupation, looking outwards, waiting for a solution
15:56
from abroad, because they know that's where it's going to come
15:59
from. And for Israelis who have the
16:01
privilege of being the, the stronger side, the one with the
16:06
military, the one with the planes, the one with the
16:09
international support, the ones who don't need to see the
16:13
Palestinians. And Palestinians are aware of
16:16
that, even when they talk to their Israeli friends and allies
16:19
who oppose the occupation, who try to highlight Palestinian
16:23
victims in, in marches in Tel Aviv and, and, and, and get
16:27
chastised by it. I, I understand the difficulty
16:30
of that dynamic that Israelis feel pain and can't, don't want
16:34
to see it. But we have to recognize that
16:36
the language normalizing the demonization, dehumanization of
16:41
Palestinians that predates October 7th, predates these
16:46
atrocities, is what got us here. It's easy not to see
16:49
Palestinians if you're Israeli. It's easy not to see them as
16:53
human. And so it's easy not to expect
16:57
to any solidarity or empathy. It's, it explains why Israeli
17:04
media is not flooded with pictures of starving children
17:07
and a bombed out hospitals and of mothers who are losing their
17:11
hair, of, of little girls who no longer have hair because of
17:15
malnutrition and fear and so on. So the dynamic here is a lot
17:20
older and a lot deeper than the current 19 months.
17:23
And I think it's important for your viewers to to always
17:27
remember that because it's, it is not as simple as October 7th
17:31
happened and the Israelis are angry and, and, and in pain and
17:35
they want this to be over because they're in pain.
17:38
It's a it's a lot longer than that, even though Israeli
17:40
society is still in denial about the fact that it is the
17:45
oppressor in this equation. But but just as I asked Angela
17:48
about whether people are beginning to question Netanyahu
17:50
because of the international reaction and what's actually
17:52
happening on the ground. I mean, you know, some weeks ago
17:55
we did see the beginnings of some anger in Gaza towards Hamas
18:00
and some protests. You know, to what extent has
18:03
that been stifled or, you know, or, or just waned away
18:08
naturally? And, and how much anger is there
18:09
still there that they are in this situation because of their
18:13
political leaders? Look, there is a lot of anger in
18:17
it and I think thank you for the question because it's a chance
18:20
to remind everybody that not everybody in Gaza is Hamas
18:25
supporter or Hamas member. In fact, quite the opposite.
18:29
When elections were held in 2006, the majority of, of votes
18:34
in Gaza did not go to Hamas. In fact, you know, Gaza voters
18:40
gave Fatah a lot more votes than they did Hamas.
18:43
So there is that the fact that Hamas controls Gaza doesn't mean
18:47
that the population there is the popular base of, of Hamas.
18:53
That is a historic inaccuracy. There is very real anger in
18:59
Gaza. There have been protests and,
19:00
and, and in fact, they these protests have continued.
19:04
And as you would expect, they're difficult.
19:06
They're met with with with a lot of force and a lot of
19:10
condemnation even by people who are not happy with Hamas saying
19:13
that this is, you know, this is not the time for it.
19:17
Listen to what the Israelis are saying.
19:19
The Israelis are saying that even if the war ends, what they
19:22
want is Gaza without the Palestinians.
19:25
What Smotrich and Malikud members are are talking about is
19:28
not just getting rid of Hamas for those who oppose Hamas, it
19:33
is getting rid of the Palestinians.
19:35
Israel has a Palestinian problem that it wants to resolve and it
19:38
feels that like it has a historic opportunity now to
19:42
solve it. So it's a very tricky thing to
19:46
to, you know, for a Palestinian to say this is all Hamas's
19:51
fault. The discussion on October 7th,
19:54
whether on, on its, on its legitimacy, on the fact that
19:58
Hamas brought on. Or gave Israel a chance to
20:01
unleash unprecedented brutality is happening and it's been
20:05
happening since the beginning. Now it's it's, you know, getting
20:11
a lot more attention. But it is there.
20:14
It cannot reach its natural end or conclusion while the bombs
20:21
keep falling that that just. It won't happen, unfortunately.
20:24
OK, so let's talk to to both of you about the sort of the
20:26
politics of progress now and what what victory or resolution
20:30
or peace might look like. There's a sort of a building
20:32
momentum around the idea that more countries could recognise A
20:38
Palestinian state, possibly even including Britain and France in
20:42
this UN meeting in June. And that's what the Palestinian
20:47
Authority spokespeople have been constantly calling for saying
20:50
recognise us 1st as a as a sort of a political step, as a
20:54
precursor to negotiations. I mean, what do people really
20:58
think that that would achieve towards a peace?
21:03
I mean, it's something that would certainly be for the
21:05
Palestinians, an important diplomatic milestone, but I
21:09
don't think it would have any effect whatsoever on the ground.
21:12
There's been talk of a Palestinian state for as long as
21:16
as there's been a almost as long as there's been this conflict
21:20
and the idea of a state just coming into being because
21:25
diplomats somewhere will say, well, we recognize that concept
21:28
doesn't mean that it's going to happen.
21:30
And we, we, we've spent so many years in countless interviews
21:36
and podcasts like this as well, discussing the viability of a
21:40
Palestinian state, of two state solution or one state solution
21:44
by national confederation solution.
21:47
The problem with all these words is never what are the mechanics
21:51
of getting of having a state or two states or three states,
21:55
which is in some ways what what the situation was with Hamas
21:59
being in charge of Gaza. But the the word solution and
22:03
the word solution means doesn't just mean some kind of idea.
22:08
It means that there are two nations who do not accept each
22:11
other's existence on a relatively slender piece of land
22:15
which both the base this is, this is a national religious
22:19
conflict in which two nations believe that they have a
22:21
God-given right to a small piece of land.
22:25
And to solve that, you have to have at least a significant
22:31
majority in both nations and the political leadership who are who
22:35
are willing to solve that. The word here is solution, not
22:38
one state or two states. If there was a consensus that a
22:42
solution can be found, then that's not then the way to, to,
22:46
to reach it would be OK, We could, we could deal with that.
22:49
But the, the fact is, is that there is a majority, I think of
22:52
Israelis and Palestinians today. And certainly the political
22:55
leaderships of both sides who are not at that point where
22:59
they're willing to accept the fact that two nations have to
23:02
and can share, whether it's in division or sharing or any other
23:06
type of, of, of way of doing it. And just saying, OK, we'll have
23:11
two States and we'll recognize the Palestinian state is not
23:13
going to push Israelis or Palestinians any closer to that
23:16
day. And that really can't come.
23:19
I don't think it's going to come from the outside.
23:21
I think it's a process that both societies have to go through.
23:24
There was a brief moment in which, you know, in the in the
23:27
90s with the also process where it did seem that there may be a
23:31
majority and both and the political leadership on both
23:34
sides for that. That was a that was a fleeting
23:36
moment. It didn't last.
23:38
And I think if any, if we see anything from October 7, it
23:41
shows that there are on both sides still very, very powerful
23:45
forces who are unwilling to recognize, you know, religious
23:48
forces. We have to, you know, it's very
23:49
difficult in the West to accept that there's such thing as a
23:52
religious war because for Western people, that's something
23:55
which existed in the Middle Ages.
23:57
And somehow we've evolved beyond that.
23:59
And religion is suddenly this wonderful, benign thing.
24:01
And we have smiling popes and all holy men are good men.
24:05
No, they're not. Many of these many holy men and
24:08
many young men who call, you know, call out in the name of
24:12
God when they go into battle, are bloodthirsty and hate their
24:15
neighbors. And this is what we're seeing
24:17
now that that when the Hamas attackers on October 7th
24:20
attacked Israel, they didn't shout down with Zionism or down
24:24
with the settlers or down with Canon.
24:25
They shout, they did shout Allahu Akbar.
24:28
This is and the same thing is happening for many young
24:30
Israelis going into the battle when they're making prayers.
24:33
It is has been for most of the roots of the conflict a
24:37
religious or the history of religion and it's still a huge
24:41
part. It's not the only part.
24:43
And westerners and people like nor I think who want to talk to
24:46
Westers will try and use western words like colonialism.
24:48
This is not a post colonial thing.
24:50
This is a mainly A religiously motivated war, and until the
24:56
sides will be able to to to somehow align their ideas of
24:59
God-given promises with reality and with and with a better
25:03
future, it will continue to be 1.
25:06
No. There's a lot to unpack here.
25:09
First of all, no, this is not a religious conflict.
25:12
This is a conflict that born out of the dispossession of a people
25:16
who have deep roots to the land, the denial of their existence
25:19
and their rights. In that case, the Palestinian
25:21
people, that's where the conflict is.
25:24
The fact that there are religious fanatics who are now
25:27
ruling over in Israel and that there is a a religious political
25:32
movement in Palestine that does also employ religion to foment
25:39
its position in, in, in the national struggle does not make
25:43
this a religious conflict, at least not from a Palestinian
25:46
perspective. We are Muslims and Christians
25:50
and other minorities. We have a very solid secular
25:56
base of the national movement and we don't view this in
26:00
religious terms, but. But there is religious hatred,
26:02
isn't there? I mean that that is expensive.
26:04
No, no, there isn't. And by the people.
26:05
No, no, no, no, I you've seen it, maybe you know, saying
26:11
Allahu Akbar doesn't mean. I don't just mean that.
26:13
I mean the the the way that Gazans talk about Israelis is
26:18
not just in terms of land. What in?
26:21
In terms of what then? It's also in terms of religion.
26:24
No, no, they're referred to as Yahood.
26:26
Yes, they're referred to as the Jews, but that's because these
26:29
are the only Jews they know. But Jews for Muslims are people
26:34
of the book. This is not about Muslims hating
26:37
Jews. This is about, you know, if
26:38
Israel were a majority Muslim country, Palestinians would
26:42
oppose it just the same. This is not about the religion
26:47
of Israel. This is about the fact that
26:49
Israel is not just colonizing Palestine, it is kicking out
26:53
Palestinians. It is taking over more land.
26:56
It's been doing that since 1948. It's non-stop.
27:00
And the fact that genocidal religious statements are part of
27:05
policy in Israel makes it worse, encourages people to, to evoke
27:12
religious sentiments and, and to, to, to view this from a
27:15
religious perspective. But that is not the, the, the,
27:19
the real issue here. And the, you know, when we talk
27:23
about a solution, I, I don't like the word solution either.
27:26
And shoulder. But that's not because I don't
27:28
want a solution, because I think we keep looking at a solution as
27:32
if it is there is somehow parity between the two sides and we
27:36
just have to agree on something. We have to like the Israelis and
27:40
find a way to make them comfortable when Palestinians
27:43
don't owe Israel that as as the colonized and the the oppressed
27:48
an end to the occupation. That is the only solution and
27:52
Palestinians will determine how they will exercise the right to
27:55
self determination recognition in that context.
27:59
To go back to your question, Christian is not just symbolic,
28:03
there are legal obligations attached to that recognition and
28:07
I think that is why Israeli politicians oppose it, ridicule
28:12
it, view it as an anti Israeli snap.
28:14
We don't know what they would be recognizing as the trouble.
28:17
Yeah, because when you recognize Palestine, you have to make sure
28:22
that you respect Palestinian sovereignty over their land.
28:25
You have to respect that Israel does not have the right to be in
28:29
the occupied West Bank and E Jerusalem and Gaza, that it
28:34
cannot profiteer from goods produced in illegal Israeli
28:38
settlements. You have to actually respect
28:40
international law and the ICJ ruling that was passed a year
28:45
ago about the illegality of that occupation.
28:48
That's what concerns Israeli politicians about recognitions.
28:52
Of course it's symbolic. It won't stop the bombs.
28:54
It won't stop the tanks, it won't pluck out and remove the
28:59
700 and plus Israeli settlers, but it will bring with it legal
29:05
obligations to those states who recognize Palestine that they
29:09
have to respect. And for the UK, at least from
29:12
Palestinian perspective, this is not just overdue, it's a debt.
29:16
So Palestinians will view the UK recognition differently from the
29:21
French or Canadian or whatever. They will view that with more
29:25
significance, more historical importance, because of the
29:30
history, if you will, of of the UK in the region and its role in
29:35
all of it. Angela, I mean, would moves
29:38
towards recognition actually help Netanyahu, Netanyahu with
29:41
his agenda, which is so far away from 2 states or anything like
29:45
that, But it's almost not worth talking about.
29:48
I don't think it would have any effect on Netanyahu in itself, I
29:51
mean on his standing. I think that he'll be able to
29:55
very easily spin this as yet more of the world against this
29:59
anti-Semitic waves and attacks on Israel.
30:05
It's it's very easy because it's, it's just about words.
30:08
It's, it's empty diplomatic gestures.
30:10
And Netanyahu has been dealing with empty diplomatic words his
30:14
entire career from the days he was a diplomat.
30:16
And basically this entire posturing over will they or
30:20
won't they recognize the Palestinian state, I think is
30:24
totally playing into Netanyahu's hands because it's continuing
30:27
this argument detached from what's happening here on the
30:30
ground. On the ground, people are
30:32
starving and dying and Gaza is being destroyed and both sides
30:36
are suffering and have been suffering for a very long time.
30:39
And continuing this talk. And, you know, we're carrying
30:42
this talk. You know, we're having this
30:43
conversation in English because we're using all these concepts
30:47
which sound wonderful in legal terms and and academic terms to
30:52
Western ears. That's not what's happening here
30:54
on the ground. It hasn't been and to try and
30:58
think, Oh well, when we finally get I mean, if they if the sides
31:04
or if the the the parties who are really interested in
31:07
reaching and I think no one. I only agree.
31:09
The fact that the word solution is a very bad, you know, is a
31:12
word that we need to totally sort of empty from it's old
31:18
meanings and try and find new meaning meanings to it.
31:20
But if all the effort is now going to be devoted to some
31:24
conference in New York, which would put out a a statement
31:27
saying I personally want Palestinian state, I want I'm
31:31
happy to see it happen in various versions.
31:34
I think it's, you know, as an Israeli, I think it would be, it
31:36
would be good for Israelis as well.
31:38
But the point is, is that this focus on an empty diplomatic
31:43
process rather than on, on, on actually trying to change the
31:48
situation here on the ground takes so much of the energy.
31:52
And if, if we, if there really is going to be this conference
31:55
in June in New York, instead of people dealing with ending the
31:59
war here, which is what needs to be done, ending starvation in
32:02
Gaza, ending the fighting, returning the Israeli hostages
32:05
home, it will all become about will they or won't?
32:08
Will France or Britain vote in favour of recognition of a
32:12
Palestinian state in New York that's 5000 miles away?
32:16
What, what is it going to do? And the ground will do nothing.
32:19
It'll play in Netanyahu's hands. This is the game that he's been
32:22
playing throughout his his his career.
32:26
And if if there has to be change, it has to be it has to
32:31
be pressure for real change and not an empty diplomatic
32:34
gestures, I think. No, just answer that.
32:37
I think we'll, we'll, we'll probably leave it at that.
32:39
But yeah, what's your answer to that?
32:41
And look, I think momentum is building.
32:43
I think recognition in that legal, political context is
32:47
important, but I think it's not enough.
32:50
And what countries in Europe will increasingly feel the need
32:53
to do, given public opinion, given the policies of Israeli,
32:58
of the Israeli government, is sanctions.
33:01
Israel needs to feel that there are consequences, real life
33:06
consequences for its actions. It cannot continue to function
33:11
in the international arena with such exceptionalism, with such
33:15
pampering and cuddling, while committing all these things,
33:18
while standing trial for genocide.
33:20
We have to remember at the ICJ these kinds of that price tag to
33:27
all those policies, whether it's economic sanctions, whether it's
33:32
cultural sanctions like we heard from suggested from the Spanish
33:37
Prime Minister, whether it's arms embargo, which we're
33:40
beginning to see at first in Spain and and perhaps in other
33:43
countries as well. These are the kinds of
33:46
consequences that make not just governments but publics at large
33:51
think or rethink policies. That's how apartheid fell.
33:55
It did not fall from within. It did not fall because suddenly
33:59
Afrikaans woke up and said, well, you know, apartheid is
34:02
really not a good idea. Let's make this a democratic
34:06
country. Israel doesn't feel the need to
34:09
end its subjugation of Palestinians, to end its rule,
34:12
to end its use of violence against Palestinians.
34:14
It will only feel that if it is pushed to, so long as it's
34:18
making a profit, economic, political and otherwise, off of
34:22
being the oppressor, it will not have an incentive to change its
34:26
policy. And that's why it change will
34:29
come from without, not from within.
34:31
Thank you both very much indeed. Angela Feffer Noroda, thank you
34:34
for your time. And that's it for the forecast.
34:36
Until next time, bye bye.