Latest / Harvest After Sunday / Human Value & Worth Pt. 2: Theology Q&A
Transcript
- Human Value & Worth Pt. 2: To the Harvest After Sunday podcast. I'm Natalie and I'm your host and I'm here with Stefan Wilson, pastor of preaching and teaching. And we're diving back in. This will be clearly labeled as part two of a conversation that we had on human value. And I'm enjoying the opportunity to kind of let these conversations unfold, sometimes unexpectedly. We didn't necessarily set out to do a part two after we recorded part one though. We were like, there's some more we can explore here. So for people that are trying to just jump in now, definitely go listen to part one where we really talk about human value, but some of the kind of ditches we want to avoid over inflating or or minimizing human value and some of the things, the worldly and cultural things that we're hearing, and how we should rightly be thinking according to God's word, as well as practical ways to navigate those situations in real time conversations with people that we're talking to and why they're saying the things we're were saying. So that was a great conversation. And really, even beyond that, there was some foundational conversations that we had, a three part series, which was intended to be three parts from the beginning, about what it even means to be human. And the great thing about these platforms is that people can go and search for those. They're they're not only recorded, but they're easily searchable. And so it gives people something to go back to and start there if you haven't listened already or listen again. I know I am someone who needs to read and listen multiple times to really understand and and come away, even you and I, I all come away from these conversations saying that was great, that was helpful, I learned something, but then I still have more questions. And so kind of set us up for give a give us a little preview of the avenue that we want to take this part to thinking about human value. Yeah, the the last conversation we had, we we spent the entire time talking about how we should think about our value as being created by God, but how sin distorts that, and how we're cut off from God's intended purposes for us and how Christ redeems and restores us. And so now the the value that we have as being created beings of God is directly linked to Christ in us. And so it's not it's not something that I bring to the table that God needs. It's something that Christ has redeemed in me. And right how we should think about all those things, and we should we should know the truth about all those things. Well that was kind of where the conversation ended, and I and I can I could certainly hear after we after we finish that episode and listening back to it, I could certainly hear like people imagining them saying, Okay, that's great that I should think that way, but I don't I don't really know what to do with that. What do I do? Yeah. Right. So what what can I actually do to help myself to think according to the truth that I can comprehend, but that doesn't mean that it has taken root and is actually changing the way that I think yet. And so I just thought it'd be really great to do a part two where we just kind of talk about okay, so what is that what do we do? What does it look like to actually put into practice things that scripture Prescribes for us to do that will actually help those truths to take root in us. And really the the language that Scripture uses in in telling us how what to do is is meditation to meditate on the truth of God's word, and that in the meditation on the word of God. that we will be taken from a place of distortion and brokenness to a place of flourishing. I mean that's that's Psalm one. That the the the man who is blessed and who is flourishing in the presence of the Lord is the one who meditates on the word of the Lord day and night. And God tells Joshua that that his word w must not depart from his lips, but he must meditate on the word of the Lord. There is just this consistent theme throughout scripture that meditating on the word of God is what actually leads to it transforming the way that we think and the way that we live so that we can live according to the the purposes of the Lord and and flourish accordingly. So that's that's what we're gonna talk about. Yeah, and let's dive right into the word meditate because I mean there's a cultural understanding of meditation. Sure. or many maybe many understandings of it culturally to different people in different circumstances. And then you know here at Harvest We repeatedly say we're anchored on God's word. We encourage people to be reading God's word. We're hearing, you know, teaching and sermons from God's word. So how does meditate is it memorize? Like where how do we understand these kind of categories of hearing, reflecting on, thinking on God's Word? Typically when people hear the word meditate, they get the image of kind of Eastern meditation, Buddhism, Hinduism. what can be known as transcendental meditation. And that is not what biblical meditation is. But to understand what biblical meditation is not, it's helpful to understand what that Eastern meditation often is. So in the in kind of Eastern religious ideology, you have the idea that the self as a distinct person is an illusion. That God pervades everything and so everything that exists has God in it and is itself God in a sense. You're you're intertwined with the divine essence. And so the sense that you are somehow a separate being from God is false or is an illusion. That's the the Eastern idea. And so meditation in in Eastern practice is to empty your mind. of any sense of individuality, any sense of being distinct from God, so that you begin to disappear and the reality of God in you becomes more primary and comes to the fore much more until you achieve the point where you where your consciousness and God's consciousness are intermeshed and become one. So in that sense of meditation, meditation is you you are certainly intentionally doing it, but it is a passive act. I am seeking to empty my mind of thoughts that would that would Crowd my mind so that in the emptying of myself I then become one with God. Well, that is the opposite of biblical meditation. Where Eastern meditation is very passive in the emptying of your mind, biblical meditation is very active in the filling of my mind with something very specific, and that is the words of God. Okay. So I I Hear the word of the Lord through Scripture and then I actively, intentionally and purposefully fill my mind with it and think about it. Ask the Lord to help bring clarity to my thoughts in it. And I I reflect on my own heart and my own thoughts and my own feelings. And I put those thoughts and feelings into conversation with God's word to let God's word correct them and refine them. And I look at areas of my life that are out of step with what God's Word says. And I put those things into conversation with God's Word to let it correct it. It's very active. And the the outcome is that the The more that I meditate on God's word, the more that it confronts and corrects those things in me that don't align with his word. Those things that we talked about in the last episode, where I'm believing things about myself that are not true. Either I have too high a view of myself or I have too low a view of myself. And then I'm able to come to God's word and meditate on it, meditate on what he says about himself, about me, about his promises, about my sin. And the more that I meditate on it, the more that I'm able to have my mind conformed to what his word says. Because it has been actively confronting and conforming those things. And is meditation inherently personal or like individual or is it still this could be in like the one another? Like you could be doing this w in relationship. What are you saying? Like you're confronted with God's word? Because it's expanding my understanding of meditation. Like certainly against the cultural version which you said you described it as like an emptying, you certainly think of it as like very individual and and quiet and Moved from any other person, like it's an individual activity and there's a stillness to it. And then we're contrasting that with this like active your and an ongoing. But some of the things you even said, being confronted with the truth of God's word, thinking about how that what it reveals about how I'm thinking and acting, like that sometimes happens in relationship. Yeah, and and I think it's a really great question because it would be easy to to just kind of knee jerk be like No, it can't happen in relation to other people. Or to just kind of say, I mean I guess it could, but I think that if what we do is we step back and we just look at the way that God's word from beginning to end interacts or tells us to interact with one another and the essential nature of being in relationship, and we've talked about that back in the what it means to be human, how being relational is an essential aspect to being human. While I would say the act of meditation is an individual act because it is me. Reflecting with the help of the Holy Spirit on my own condition in relation to what God's Word says, it is certainly aided by the community of faith. because there are people in the church who know scripture better than I do, and they can point me to scriptures that I need to know. There are people in the church who see things that I don't see, and they can bring it to my attention, so that I can reflect on it, pray about it, meditate on it, go to God's word about it. There are people in the church who can certainly help me to apply the things that have come out of prayerful meditation as I reflect on things and I s some God brings to the to the surface something that has been in there and I hadn't really noticed it and now I see it. But I don't really know what to do with that, other than just say, Okay, that's there, and I can go to other people and say, Okay, so when I was in God's word and I was meditating on God's word, I've really felt like the Lord pressed on this, and I've never Can you help me to process this? Yeah, absolutely. That's where I think meditation becomes a a communal endeavor because it's the it's God's people helping me to see things I need to meditate about, and God's people helping me to apply the things that came out of that intentional meditation. Okay, so we're we're definitely starting with the intake of scripture, getting it in front of our eyes, like into our ears through teaching or or reading, and then meditation, but that that is gonna turn into prayer and maybe confession. It's maybe gonna produce questions and I'm gonna go ask questions to gain further understanding or accountability in my life. So you're really seeing it as the integral kind of cog, but it's connected to all these other disciplines and actions as a believer. Totally. So I'm gonna recommend a resource now. because I'm gonna I'm gonna quote from this resource here in just a second. the Puritans, I've talked about the Puritans at many different points on the podcasts and in sermons and things, I'm a big fan. there is a Puritan named Thomas Manton. He wrote a book called Holy Meditation. And it's basically a how-to of meditating on scripture. And he makes a very helpful statement early on in the book where he says that to go to God's word without meditation is basically an empty endeavor because you're not letting it penetrate your heart. But to pray. without meditation is to be hasty in going to the throne of God. And so what he what he's doing there is he's essentially saying, okay, there's a conversation between you and the Lord. And I talk about this at different times on Sunday mornings with our church family, that the way that the conversation with us and God goes is that he speaks through his word. And then we speak back to him in prayer according to what his word says. Well, just like as you and I are conversing, there's also an internal dialogue that's happening within each one of us as we're speaking and then hearing what the other one is saying, there's a processing of the information. As you speak, I process it and then from that processing now I speak back to you and and that is how the conversation keeps going. And what Thomas Manton is is arguing for and what I think he's absolutely right about is that the conversation with us and the Lord He speaks through his word, and then we meditate on what he says. And as I meditate on what he says and I consider what it means for my particular situation or struggles, or the things that that I are top of mind at that moment, I meditate on them, I consider them, and now I can turn and I can pray in an informed way, in an intentional way. Just I under s okay, Lord, I I think I can see what your word is saying about my life here and now I know what to pray about. Mm-hmm. I'm not just saying things like, Lord, help me to practice this today. Like I I now have some very tangible things that the Lord has brought to the surface because I've meditated on them and now I'm not being hasty in just offering up a quick prayer so that I can get on to the rest of my day, but I am I'm actually praying. Mm-hmm. I'm I'm speaking to the Lord, asking him. To by his spirit transform me. Yeah. So that I can be used more for his purposes. Yeah. I feel like it really solidifies like potentially memorization or praying about the truth of scripture that you've read, you can see how it solidifies it. And then my immediate thought is it's an anchor. It's like, okay, that's how you're anchored on God's word. You're not anchored, or as James describes it, like we look in a mirror and then we turn and forget, you know, and how often does God say, In his word, like remember, remember, remember. So our nature as humans is this forgetfulness and is this distraction to other things. And so you can see how as you intake the truth of God's word, it's solidified by potentially memorization or speaking back to God in prayer based on the truth that you've just read. And then I even think of what we discussed in our last conversation, you know, these kind of two Ditches or imbalances, either people saying, you're worthy, and then people saying, I'm a worthless worm and then looking at the truth of God's word to be anchored and corrected. we talked about how you can engage with people in real time and kind of push back on those things. But as we're talking about this idea of meditating now, you see how that being able to even notice and push back or ask a question based on what somebody else is saying would only come if you've been Meditating on the and you're like turning it over in your mind and your heart kind of constantly. Yeah, because if if what I'm actually most informed by is the voices in the culture around me, then I'm really going to affirm when the person I'm with says things that sound like the rest of those voices, all that I can do is really affirm it because that's what I'm being influenced by. But if I'm going to hear you say something that isn't true and I'm gonna point you to the truth, it's I'm only gonna be able to do that if I have first come to a place where I believe the truth. Or at least I know the truth that I should believe and I am intentionally meditating on that truth and asking the Lord to renew my mind in it. And then when I see you struggling in the same way, then I can point you to the same truth that that I'm laboring to to embrace and believe. And what it what what ends up happening is that when I am meditating on scripture and I hear those voices Whether it's my own voice, whether it's the enemy, whether it's the voices in culture. I mean, we're we're tempted and and led astray by three things: our flesh, the world, and demonic forces. Like those are the three things that lead us astray. And so I'm gonna hear lies about myself from any of those three, from my s f my own self, from the world, or from the enemy. And when I'm confronted with that, and then I come to scripture. And I see things like the Lord saying that you are chosen and dearly loved, that the Lord e exults over you with dancing, that he takes joy in his children, that you have been purchased and repurposed, right? Like we've talked about the meaning of the word redemption. There is a meaning to my life, a value that God has placed upon me, not because of how great I am, but because of how great He is and the work that He's done in me. And I meditate on that, then I'm able to say, Lord, I can see how those voices I was listening to are lying to me. They're not true. Help me to believe what is true. And then when I see someone who is struggling with the same thing. Now because I because I was able to meditate on that and take hold of it, now I can point you to the same thing. Yeah. that's a perfect setup because I had a lingering question from our conversation last time. Because we're so we're talking about human value and the majority of our conversation has been about correcting our view of ourself, which we probably think about ourselves more than we think about anyone else. So that is important. But I was thinking, since our last conversation, we certainly have thoughts about others too. And a like a lot of the examples you gave, even the the references from scripture I mentioned in our last conversation are about the truth of our identity in Christ as believers. Right. But not everyone is a believer and we're certainly interacting with people that are believers and not believers. And being aligned with the truth of God's word as we consider ourselves and our own identity is so important. important, but what we think of when we think about the value of others, believers and non-believers, is also certainly gonna shape how we act and respond and interact with those people. Totally. So how do we understand human value because of what God has done and how He's created us? Like you said last time, it's because of His design, not our own merit. But at the same time, some of these truths are reserved for those that are in Christ and they're Other humans who do have inherent value and should be treated as such, but not some of the same distinctions as those that are in Christ. Yeah. So it's a great question. my mind is going like thirty different directions. But Okay, so if we're gonna meditate on scripture. Yeah. And I'm in Christ, and God declares all these blessings and truths about me because I'm in Christ. But then I meditate on Ephesians chapter two, verses one through three. But you were dead in your trespasses and sins. You were children of wrath. You were led astray by Spiritual forces in the world. Like you were like everybody else who is lost, but God, being rich in mercy, saved you by his grace. Now, when I think about that and I meditate on it, I can meditate on the truth that. Lord, all the blessings that I have and all the the beautiful truths about how you cherish me are first and foremost because of the work that you did to show grace to somebody who didn't deserve it. And I think that we would when we are tempted to look at other people who aren't in Christ, and we look at their lives and we look at the things that that we would say we don't approve of, I think that we would just do so well before Saying, thank goodness I'm not like that person, like the Pharisee, in the parable of the Pharisee and the tax collector. Rather that we would get very used to saying the phrase, but for the grace of God, so go I. If it wasn't for God's grace in my life, I would be no different. And so I am not in a place, right, as I meditate on this truth, I I can remind be reminded, I am not in a place to look down on another person because they aren't in Christ. Instead, I should have such a high view of the grace of God. For those who he created for his glory, of which this person is an image bearer of God. The image is broken, right? The mirror right now is shattered, but the grace of God renewed me. It is making me into a more fitting image of God. And because that person is also a human being who is made in the image of God, my desire for them is that they would know the same grace. So rather than looking down on them, I want to point them up to the one who can restore them. there's this common phenomenon with people and happens in traffic all the time. Somebody flies past you or cuts you off and weaving in and out of traffic and we always we always do the same thing for the most part. We'll say that guy's such a jerk or we say we make some we make some statement about the character of the person behind the wheel. It's called the fundamental attribution error. that I attribute a fundamental character trait to that person based on the actions that I see them committing and it's an error because I don't actually know why that guy's speeding right now. Like what if he just found out his wife is in the emergency room and he's trying to get to the hospital? It's not a it's not a character flaw. Like he's just trying to get there. There's probably there might be or maybe not a a great explanation, but a reasonable explanation for this conduct that I'm seeing. And I think that a lot of times we will just look at conduct of a person and then make declaration about their value based on their conduct. And if instead what we do is we let God's word and meditating on God's word and what it tells me about my state apart from the grace of God and how the blessings that I get to enjoy now are because of the grace of God, then when I see the actions of someone who isn't in Christ, I can still think well of them in the sense of God made you for more. And it's my job to show you what the grace of God would mean for you. And so far from, well, we got our blessings and we've got our value and everybody else in the world, well, guess they missed out. No, instead it's let that be a motivation for you to go to your neighbor to say there there is there is a a value that you have that you are unaware of. But you will only be able to realize it and experience the the beauty of it and the blessing of it when you know the God who made you with that value. Yeah. Such good reminders. when we think about meditation, meditating on God's word, I wonder if you have some recommendations for our people. I'm You know, I'm I'm always a little hesitant on like this is ex you have to get up and have a morning quiet time and morning devotional. But also in light of all the things we've said, that there's so much reflection and interaction that comes after we've read God's word that it seems very natural that that would be how we're starting our day. So I you know, without encouraging like it has to be in this format or at this time, it seems like there's some really practical implications to starting your day in God's. word that then would propel you into this meditation, this continuing on in prayer, this thinking of it and reflecting on it as you move about your day and asking the Holy Spirit, you know, even revealing in your own actions or what you're thinking about, how you're responding to people, the conversations you're engaging in, that there would be a benefit to doing that in a specific timing. Rather I know myself, if I did it right before I went to bed, I would go to sleep and maybe forget about it and then just get up and start my day. Do you recommend Starting in the morning? So, I mean, I would recommend it and I'll I think it's wise. Yeah. but I always like whenever we're talking about so how do I do this thing? I always like to distinguish between elements and forms. Yes. Right. And we've talked about that on the podcast a few different times. Elements are the things that must be true for this thing to be legitimate. So elements in the church are the things that must be present. We must be doing them if we are to be a faithful church. Forms are the ways that we do them, the different forms that they take. It will not always look the same for every church. Singing, sitting under the word, fellowship, sacraments of baptism and communion, like those are elements. They must be present. But the types of songs that you sing, the style of sermons, If you use bread and wine or crackers and juice, like those are forms. Those are the different ways that they look depending on what church you're in. So I think that if we're talking about the Christian life, especially how to believe and apply and meditate on the word of God, the elements are reading God's Word, prayer, meditation. Fellowship with other believers where we can talk about these things and and build one another up in them. There are plenty of commands throughout scripture that say those things must be present in our lives. The forms that they take, when we do them, how long we do them, exactly the the regimen that we go through, that can look different ways. You can certainly do your your devotional time in the evening. I I understand why some would do that because maybe that's the only time that you have some peace and quiet in your life. Maybe you're not a morning person. but there are a few things that I would just say could potentially be pitfalls in that. One, you fall asleep while you're praying. That happened. I used to do when I was in college, I tried doing my scripture study at night and and then I would pray and I would always wake up realizing like I never actually finished praying. I just fell asleep. Which means there was a decent amount of time where my prayer was relatively incoherent because I was nodding off and things like that or became repetitive. Yeah. the here's the the more I think the more pressing reason why I I personally try to avoid doing any kind of devotional time in the evening. Because it puts me in a state of only being able to reflect and regret. Like I just look back over the day and think, Man, I really wish I would have read that this morning. Like I look back today and see ways that I wasn't really intentionally thinking about The truth of God's word and how it would impact a situation. And now I'm reading this and thinking back. And there's a place for seeing where we've fallen short and going to the Lord in repentance and confession and and certainly remembering back is a way of growing. Like I can see how I should have done it different, and so now I can. I do think there is a cognitive validity to doing it in the evening because when I read something in the evening and then I fall asleep, my subconscious actually ingrains it in a helpful way. I think that th what the morning does is it it sets it's kinda like so many other things. Like when you get up and you make your bed and you eat a good breakfast and you go for a run or maybe a walk or you go to the gym, you you have a routine that starts your day. I mean all the research shows that when you have a consistent routine that is your start up ritual, that your day you end up looking back on your day much more favorably than if you don't have that start up ritual. And I think that if I wanna be careful about the word ritual, I we don't want to make rhythm. Rhythm, sure. Rhythm's good. That sounds very churchy. your morning rhythm. but I do think that when you spend time in the Word, meditating on the Word, praying over that, you j I d I just think you l when you say Amen at the end of your prayer and you look up to this life that's set before you today. Mm-hmm. Like Lord, you gave me this day. Let me use this day to align with what you told me this morning from your word. I wake up in the morning and I don't try to read anything until I'm at least one cup of coffee in. Yeah. And then I read and then I meditate on what I read and then I pray. A lot of times I go for a walk. I either take the dogs with me or I walk on my own. either listen to scripture and meditate on the things that I hear or I will just meditate on what I read before I left. And I just find that for me that's very helpful. So I think it's wise. I'm not gonna say you have to. Yeah. We don't want to encourage legalism and we don't want people to feel discouraged if they are in a stage of life that is really demanding and pressing on them or making it very, very difficult to keep up with certain rhythms. However, we can speak to the wisdom in establishing rhythms of being in God's word. there are so many ways you can do it. Like you you said, okay, you're gonna do your morning walk, you can have it you can be listening to God's word in your ears and I encourage young moms that I discipled. To do the same, you know, if they say, I truly don't have time to set aside for this and and have quiet moments, you can incorporate it into, you know, while you guys are on a walk, while you're in the car, you can be playing while you're in the shower, even you know, there are ways to get God's word in our minds and in our hearts. I know for myself, we our small group several years ago was doing a book about spiritual disciplines, and I recognized immediately that the reason the the real true reason. reason that I did not get up and start my day in the word and in prayer was just my own pride and self-sufficiency on display. I wanted to get up and get to my day. I thought I knew what was best and I was ready to get to it. and it was one example of how I felt that I could live independently of the Lord and just add him into my life when I felt that it was convenient or maybe served me. So for me, I knew that that was a specific way start My day at that time of day that would signify and reveal what I truly valued and what I was pursuing. But totally understand that that's certainly not the only thing. that it is the rhythms of our lives, and do we care at all about looking to the truth of God's word to have correct understanding about things like human value? and are we meditating on it? And so this has been a really helpful conversation. Yeah. And thank you for joining us. for the Harvest After Sunday podcast, where we help you grow into the image of Christ by applying the truths of his word for his mission. We'll see you Sunday.