Latest / Becker’s Payer Issues Podcast / Dr. Sachin Jain, President and CEO of SCAN Group

Transcript

Dr. Sachin Jain, President and CEO of SCAN Group · Becker’s Payer Issues Podcast

• 0:02
  This is where health insurance leadership comes together.
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  Becker's fourth annual spring payer issues roundtable brings
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  together over 400
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  payer and health plan executives and more than
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  100 speakers to Chicago April.
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  This year's event includes keynote conversations with the
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  industry's top leaders and former president George W.
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  Bush. For the full agenda and event details,
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  visit beckershospitalreview.com
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  and click on the events tab in the
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  upper right. We're looking forward to hosting you
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  here in Chicago.
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  Hello, everyone. This is Jacob Emerson with the
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  Becker's Pay Your Issues podcast. Thrilled today to
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  be joined by SCAN Group president and CEO,
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  doctor Sachin Jain. Doctor Jain, thanks so much
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  for taking the time to chat with me
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  on the podcast once again. Thanks so much
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  for having me, Jacob. It's always an honor
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  and a pleasure. Absolutely. Likewise. And, we've got
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  a lot we wanna, talk with you about
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  today, Sachin,
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  about a piece you wrote for Forbes.
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  But, obviously, as you know, there there's been
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  a lot happening
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  across the health care industry this year already
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  in the first few weeks of the year.
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  A lot of federal policy debate and proposals,
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  in Washington.
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  Got the CEOs of the largest insurers testifying
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  before Congress last week over rising premiums.
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  And then you wrote in your piece that,
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  of course, that all of this is happening
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  as trust in the industry overall remains fragile,
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  given the events of the last couple of
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  years. So
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  against that backdrop,
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  you published an op ed in Forbes this
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  month outlining 10 health care leadership resolutions for
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  the year ahead.
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  You you noted it's it's not a trend
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  forecast. It's not a strategy framework. It's a
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  candid call for
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  accountability.
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  And you're arguing that health care's core challenge
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  is not innovation fatigue or talent talent shortages,
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  but a growing deficit of leadership resolve.
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  So so, correct me if I if I
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  frame that incorrectly at all, Sachin. But but
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  how I wanna discuss I think you framed
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  it I think you framed it better than,
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  I framed it, Jacob. So thank you. Yeah.
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  I appreciate it. Hear that. I mean, tell
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  us, why'd you wanna write this piece? Why'd
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  you wanna start up this year writing this
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  in in such a public manner? Well, on
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  a on a personal note, I'm a big
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  New Year's resolutions guy, so I like to
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  spend the last couple of weeks of the
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  year thinking about the next year. And
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  as I was doing that for myself on
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  a personal level, I started to think about
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  my resolutions from a professional perspective.
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  And
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  I started to think about the behaviors that
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  I wanted to see more in myself and
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  then also behaviors
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  that I think we need to see, you
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  know, more broadly. And,
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  you know, number one is something I believe
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  in, you know, to my core, which is
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  that we all need to say the hard
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  things and do the hard things more.
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  I think health care is an industry that
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  is just bereft with happy talk,
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  and we need to kinda move beyond the
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  happy talk in part because
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  I think the happy talk actually gets in
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  the way
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  of actually addressing
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  the real problems, the real elephants in the
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  room. If we're constantly kinda talking about what's
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  working,
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  we're not talking about what's not working.
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  And, you know, to connect it back to
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  the trust point that you made earlier,
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  we may not be talking about it as
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  health care leaders,
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  but all of our patients
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  and health care workers are all talking about
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  it everywhere.
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  And so the trust gap builds when there's
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  one talk track that's happening at a leadership
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  level, and then there's another talk track that's
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  happening at the patient
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  and clinician level.
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  And when those two things are, you know,
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  increasingly misaligned,
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  it actually
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  widens the trust gap because it's it gives
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  people the feeling
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  that, you know, some people are living on
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  Mars while other people are living on Venus.
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  And
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  we all need to be on planet Earth.
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  And I think part of that begins with
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  actually
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  just naming the problem so that we can
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  actually start to fix the problem.
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  Sure. And I and I hear you loud
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  and clear. I would, share
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  in being,
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  and getting sick of of the happy talk
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  from leaders within the industry. I certainly hear
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  hear it,
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  daily. Nick, if you're only now getting sick
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  of it, I mean, you just you listen
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  to it all the time. So I'm just,
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  you know, you listen to it more than
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  I do. But let me ask you because
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  I think where this is coming from is
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  it's, from, you know, you wrote this isn't
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  coming from lack of intelligence. It's it's not
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  coming from people who don't know what they're
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  doing. But at least from, you know, when
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  I'm having interviews with very senior executives in
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  this industry,
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  they are scared to say what they really
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  feel either because, you know, they they have
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  their PR department that has written them very
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  strict things to communicate.
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  They don't wanna get into legal trouble. They
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  don't wanna, you know, get into trouble with
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  their board. Whatever it is, executives are often
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  very afraid to step in it, and they
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  don't wanna go in in the way that,
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  you know, is, I think, framed as the
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  correct way of communicating
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  whatever we're talking about in the given moment.
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  So
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  how do you how do you counter something
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  like that? Something that, I think innately is
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  a fear, from a lot of leadership in
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  the industry. Well, I'm glad you mentioned the
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  PR people because I think we have a
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  broken PR playbook for health care.
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  And I liken it a lot to the
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  Ivy League presidents that were
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  in congress
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  testifying
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  and not answering questions that were asked very
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  directly directly.
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  And you see that that playbook
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  of obfuscation,
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  of
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  being excessively careful in the face of hard
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  questions,
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  plays exactly the way that it played, you
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  know, when the those Ivy League presidents were
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  actually testifying
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  before congress, which is actually plays very badly.
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  If you're asked direct questions and you don't
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  answer them directly, and if you're not speaking
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  truth
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  in situations where you're
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  asked to speak truth,
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  it leaves a certain taste in your mouth.
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  And I think that,
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  you know, the instructions that we're getting from
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  PR people
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  are outdated. Now we have a great PR
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  department, small and mighty at SCAN.
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  But, you know, the truth is is that
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  we are,
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  you know, getting out of the world of
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  talking points and getting into the world of
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  just speaking the truth plainly and simply and
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  honestly.
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  I think, you know, you know, we had
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  this big national campaign last year with which
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  was health insurance is broken,
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  was our our tagline.
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  You know, SCAN sees it and, is doing
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  something to fix it.
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  That's a very different message than you hear
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  from almost all of our competitors,
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  both on the payer side and the provider
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  side, where most folks are touting their US
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  News and World Report rankings.
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  They're touting their,
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  you know, VISIANT ratings. Whatever it is, the
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  truth is is that
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  if you actually
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  look at what's really happening to patients and
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  clinicians, health care is getting worse and not
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  better.
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  And if you actually say that out loud,
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  it gives you the best chance possible to
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  actually fix it.
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  But I think we're robbing ourselves of that
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  when we hide behind
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  the p the simple PR talk. And, again,
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  I'll just say that old playbooks are really,
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  really outdated. Saying nothing is not a strategy.
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  And so I would I think that one
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  of the biggest opportunities we have as an
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  industry to move forward the quality of leadership
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  and the impact of leadership
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  is to actually
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  commit to speaking more plainly and more truthfully
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  and more honestly
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  about what's really going on.
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  Absolutely. And I and I definitely would give
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  kudos to SCAN for a very unique Medicare
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  Advantage campaign last year, such and definitely one
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  of the more candid moments we've seen in
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  the industry over the last few years in
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  terms of just openly talking about the frustrations
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  that members all across the country, not not
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  SCAN,
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  have with their health plans.
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  But I also wonder, you know, there's a
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  lot of leaders that don't necessarily see themselves
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  as wanting to be or needing to be
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  mouthpieces
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  for,
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  industry wide change. They just wanna focus on,
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  quiet
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  operational discipline within their their specific organizations.
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  Do you think that there's a risk here
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  of them getting drowned out by people who
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  are louder,
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  even if those people are less,
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  substantive in what they're saying? Yeah. Again, I'm
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  gonna sound like a broken record, but I
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  think it's an outdated playbook.
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  I think, you know, one of the reasons
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  we haven't had more policy change is that
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  we are quietly going about our business, not
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  really asking the hard questions and saying the
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  hard things and and leading the kind of
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  policy advocacy that we need. And what I'll
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  say is if you're not part of driving
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  change, change will happen to you.
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  That happens over and over again. History proves
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  that, you know, change will happen to those
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  who don't actually
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  participate in creating it themselves.
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  And so I think we, as leaders, have
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  an opportunity and almost an obligation
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  to take our knowledge of what's not working
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  and actually work proactively
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  to address it,
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  whether it's through operations, but also through advocacy,
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  through policy, through public proclamations. I I think
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  when you don't speak in 2026,
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  you're seen as, frankly, complicit in the status
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  quo. And I don't think that that's unfair.
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  I think if you are not part of
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  the voices
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  advocating for change, you are indeed part of
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  the broken status quo. And that is not
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  a position that I think history will look
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  favorably upon,
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  in the in the future. So I think
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  we all have to,
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  you know, really think hard about how we
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  show up and what we really stand for
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  and move beyond the platitudes. And one of
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  the my least favorite industry platitudes is the
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  no margin, no mission platitude because it avoids
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  the kind of reflection that's actually
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  necessary about what the actual mission is. And
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  I don't think the mission is to just
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  keep your organization alive no matter what. I
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  think the mission is to heal people, to
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  serve the community, to improve population health. That's
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  the work that we really need to do.
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  Yeah. No. It's a it's a good call
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  out. I I like that you're calling out
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  your least favorite platitude such, and I I
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  think maybe mine I would add is, meeting
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  the member where they are. I hear that
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  consistently,
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  probably on a weekly basis. And at least
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  from my perspective, that seems like something that
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  should have been What about what about right?
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  Right care, right time, right place. That's another
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  one I'm sure you hear a lot on
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  this, podcast, Jacob. Yeah. Definitely. And, hey, it's
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  it's it's also something I wanted to ask
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  about in in terms of just what we
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  hear so much of right now, but it's
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  it's almost saying everything and yet nothing, and
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  it's it's the AI conversation
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  section. And I and I say that because
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  it's almost like every press release,
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  every product raw, every initiative, every project has
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  to have some kind of AI powered, AI
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  driven
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  explainer on on attached to the front of
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  it. And, you know, I know this technology
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  is is has been transformative for the industry
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  right now, but I wanted to connect it
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  back to what something you said in your
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  piece. Well, actually actually, Jacob, I've pushed. I
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  don't think it has been transformative. Right? That's
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  the point is that, you know, you know,
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  are you or I getting in to see
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  our primary care doctors any sooner? Yeah. Are
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  you or I, you know, actually
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  getting the kind of care that we need
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  when we need it because of it, you
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  know, something that some health system is enabled
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  by AI? I don't think so. Sure. And
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  so until the benefit really accrues to the
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  end customer,
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  I you know, which is the patient,
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  I don't think we can actually say that
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  AI has led to any real change. And
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  I think a lot of what's happening right
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  now is we're we're getting a lot of,
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  quote, unquote, back office innovation, which is really
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  about revenue cycle management and coding,
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  and we're not necessarily getting patient facing innovation.
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  I I had this, you know, my my
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  team a couple weeks ago was presenting to
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  us the chatbot
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  that feed a chatbot feature, which is, you
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  know, kind of table stakes that, you know,
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  every company has. And I just kept thinking
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  to myself, has anyone ever met a chatbot
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  that they actually like?
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  And I couldn't couldn't think of anyone who's
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  there like, oh, man. I use the United
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  Airlines chatbot, and it was really awesome.
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  I really prefer that to actually interacting with
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  a person. Now certainly, like, if I had
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  a simple request, like, you know, you know,
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  send me my membership card or something like
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  that,
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  Those those types of, you know, features are
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  are helpful and reduce friction.
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  But what most people's health care problems aren't
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  as simple as needing a membership card or
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  needing a, you know, a a a, you
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  know, a referral to a specialist. I think
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  it gets much more complicated than that.
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  It you know? And and that's the work,
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  you know, that we need to do is
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  make those complicated things better and simpler.
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  So until AI is actually influencing
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  the the complicated things and truly making the
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  system work better,
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  You know, I think we're we haven't the
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  game hasn't even started yet.
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  No. And I I appreciate the pushback. I
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  certainly am guilty of falling for the rhetoric,
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  I think, just as much as anybody. And
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  I I I think the question there, Sachin,
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  is how should the leaders listening in, who
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  can also be just as guilty of this,
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  how can they distinguish themselves between genuine transformation,
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  whether that be at the company or industry
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  wide, and some of the organizational
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  noise that you described in your piece? I
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  would say skepticism is in and toxic positivity
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  is out.
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  And I think, you you know, the way
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  we can actually you you know, another another
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  truism that my friend, Aman Bandari,
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  who is,
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  you know,
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  the head of AI and and data science
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  at Vertex Pharmaceuticals
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  is, you know, show me a startup that's
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  actually moved the needle on care delivery.
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  And it you know, the truth is there's
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  a few. But for the most part,
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  most of what, you know, the startup ecosystem,
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  the venture ecosystem is doing is adding a
• 13:20
  lot of noise. Now they're getting a lot
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  of attention right now.
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  But the truth is is that, you know,
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  there's a lot of noise,
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  and the noise
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  the noise to actual impact ratio is off
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  the charts right now. And I'd like to
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  see us really push the impact
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  numbers up and reduce the noise. And, you
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  know, maybe part of part of, you know,
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  what a Beckers can do is is start
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  to be a more skeptical voice. And I
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  think health care journalism could play an important
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  role in this too.
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  It's yeah. It's I really appreciate that call
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  out as well. I would agree.
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  We definitely have a responsibility to be more
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  skeptical in all of the communications that are
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  coming our way and what the authorities on
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  these topics are telling us. So, yeah, I
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  would agree with you. A simple a simple
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  fix here. I mean, again, I don't think
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  Becker's does this that much, but I think
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  a lot
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  of venues just get really focused on the
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  fundraising.
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  Mhmm. Right? It's like, oh, Joe's startup has,
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  you know, raised a series b that has
• 14:17
  x, y, and z investors, and it's, you
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  know, $30,000,000 round.
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  And, you know, we're not actually talking about,
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  hey. Joe startup,
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  move the needle
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  on the care of diabetics in x health
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  system. Right? That's the kind of conversation that
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  we need to be having more of, and
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  that's the kind of stuff that we should
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  be elevating more, not, you know, whether someone
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  was clever enough to, you know, raise money
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  from a syndicate of investors. Yeah. Absolutely. And
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  I think, unfortunately, that's also a symptom of
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  our media
• 14:47
  media ecosystem,
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  going towards what are the audiences clicking on.
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  And I know that's an entire other conversation,
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  so I won't, you know, go down that
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  path session. Sure. Sure. Yeah. I'm sorry I
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  took us there. Sorry. No no worries at
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  all. But I I wanted to ask about
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  a few of your resolutions.
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  One is elevating frontline workers, the people who
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  are actually doing the work of health care
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  in these organizations,
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  rooting out toxic positivity, ending performative initiatives.
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  I think all of these things really require,
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  these leaders at these companies to seed some
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  of their power or or at least confront
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  entrenched interests, within their own organizations, which, as
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  you know, across the industry, these companies can
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  be massive.
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  So what makes you confident that
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  executives
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  will actually do this, can actually do this
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  kind of thing, rather than simply agreeing with
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  you having the good intentions,
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  but then moving on same as usual?
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  Well, I think we need to change. I
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  think everyone knows we need to change. I
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  think most people in the middle ranks of
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  most health care organizations
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  are miserable.
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  And I'll tell you why they're miserable. They're
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  miserable because there's the happy talk that's coming
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  from the top, and then there's the frontline
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  reality that they're trying to manage and buffer.
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  And they are struggling with the cognitive dissonance
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  of the words they hear from their bosses
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  and the cries that they hear from the
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  front lines
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  and,
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  you know, the impact that they may not
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  be having on patients.
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  And so I think, you know, most people
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  live with a certain
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  amount of cognitive dissonance and moral discomfort.
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  And I think, you know, part of what
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  I wanted to do with these resolutions is
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  give them a language, give these folks a
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  language,
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  and maybe even point to me or point
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  to this article and say, look at what
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  this guy's saying. How does this apply to
• 16:33
  our organization?
• 16:35
  It's not easy for someone to say these
• 16:36
  things out loud themselves. They are the things
• 16:38
  that they grumble about when they're talking to
• 16:40
  their friends and their families.
• 16:42
  But, you know, if it's an article form,
• 16:44
  maybe it's the kind of thing that can
• 16:46
  circulate
• 16:47
  and start a productive conversation
• 16:49
  about how these behaviors are happening in one's
• 16:52
  organizations and how they can move beyond them.
• 16:55
  So you're laying the groundwork for other leaders,
• 16:58
  to
• 16:59
  to use themselves, Sachin. I wonder, you know,
• 17:02
  jumping off of what we what we talked
• 17:04
  about, and what we saw last week in
• 17:06
  congress with some of the CEOs of the
• 17:07
  largest insurers,
• 17:09
  and and what was said or or what
• 17:11
  was not said, I think.
• 17:13
  Do you see examples of what you're talking
• 17:15
  about today already happening in the industry? Is
• 17:18
  there something you would point to that gives
• 17:19
  you hope that the industry is on the
• 17:21
  right path,
• 17:23
  or or am I framing that correctly? How
• 17:24
  would you describe where we're at in this
• 17:26
  process? You know, I give the folks at
• 17:27
  AHIP,
• 17:29
  a a a lot of credit for some
• 17:31
  of the work that came out of the
• 17:33
  post Brian Thompson murder. Right? The reform
• 17:37
  that they put in place, I think, was
• 17:39
  was meaningful, and it was potentially transformative. Certainly
• 17:42
  steps in the right direction and something that
• 17:44
  we at Scan
• 17:45
  have participated in as well.
• 17:47
  That said, I don't think we're going far
• 17:49
  enough because I think
• 17:51
  what the dominant culture is is to
• 17:54
  treat answering phones,
• 17:56
  and and contracting networks like we're saving lives.
• 17:59
  And
• 18:00
  I have a message to everyone in the
• 18:02
  pair industry who,
• 18:04
  you know, believes that we're saving lives we're
• 18:06
  not. I think the people on the front
• 18:08
  lines of care delivery
• 18:09
  are. Our work is to enable those people.
• 18:12
  But in many cases, we're putting barriers up
• 18:14
  to people actually accessing care, and we have
• 18:17
  to make things
• 18:18
  as easy as possible. We have to treat
• 18:19
  people like they're human beings,
• 18:21
  and we have to rehumanize our industry. I
• 18:23
  think that that term, rehumanization,
• 18:27
  is something that
• 18:28
  really needs to start to resonate and percolate
• 18:31
  in boardrooms and management teams
• 18:34
  because,
• 18:36
  unfortunately, a lot of what people have experienced
• 18:38
  is actually dehumanization,
• 18:39
  not not humanization.
• 18:42
  Wonderful. I I think that's a really good
• 18:44
  place to leave things, doctor Jain. So I
• 18:46
  wanna thank you for taking the time to
• 18:48
  chat with me on the podcast, and as
• 18:50
  always for for being candid with us and
• 18:52
  with our listeners,
• 18:54
  in what you said can often be,
• 18:56
  an industry and and periods where it's difficult
• 18:59
  to to hear those kinds of perspectives. So
• 19:02
  thank you for doing so. I really appreciate
• 19:04
  it. Always a pleasure, Jacob. Thank you so
• 19:06
  much, and, really appreciate the time. Yeah. Likewise.
• 19:09
  And and to our listeners, if you'd like
• 19:10
  to listen to more podcasts from Becker's, you
• 19:12
  can visit beckershospitalreview.com.