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Surviving The Narcissistic Abuse Relationship with Dr. Justine Weber · The Trauma Therapist

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Welcome to the Trauma Hipps Podcast. My name is Ga Macpherson.
• 0:04
  Speaker 1: I interview incredible people who've dedicated their lives to helping
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: those who've been impacted by trauma. Here we go five four, three,
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: two and one, our folks, welcome back to the podcast.
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: Very excited to have my guest today, doctor Justine Weber. Justine, welcome.
• 0:21
  Speaker 2: Thank you so much for having me.
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: You are welcome. So Justine is a California licens psychologist,
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: coach and author of the book How the Fuck Do
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: I Heal From This who loves helping people heal, recover,
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: and thrive after a narcissistic, abusive relationship. All right, so
• 0:39
  Speaker 1: short and sweet bio. We're going to get more into that,
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  Speaker 1: but before we do, Justine share with the listeners where
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: you're from originally and where you are currently.
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  Speaker 2: Sure, So, I'm from California. I was raised in a
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  Speaker 2: small town called Hemmett. It's kind of it's the kind
• 0:56
  Speaker 2: of place that you drive out of you don't if
• 0:59
  Speaker 2: you know what I mean?
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: Is it hemet?
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  Speaker 2: Hemet, California where north south where it's like the Inland Empire.
• 1:06
  Speaker 2: It's like kind of driving toward like Palm Springs, but
• 1:09
  Speaker 2: like an hour from Palm Springs, like Corona, not that Temecula.
• 1:15
  Speaker 2: So it's kind of the drug capital right now from
• 1:18
  Speaker 2: what I've heard. You want good meth, go to Henan.
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  Speaker 1: That's another podcast.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, but I currently live in Nevada. My private practice
• 1:31
  Speaker 2: is in California. It's in New Park Beach by Fashion Island,
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  Speaker 2: and I, you know, see adults, and you know, I
• 1:40
  Speaker 2: do some psychological testing, but really not that much. But
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  Speaker 2: then I live in Nevada, so I fly back and forth.
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  Speaker 2: But for my coaching business, I see people all around
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  Speaker 2: the country.
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  Speaker 1: Okay, so let's get into it here. How did we're
• 1:57
  Speaker 1: going to talk about the book? I love the title,
• 1:59
  Speaker 1: by the way, thank you. It's right to the poet,
• 2:03
  Speaker 1: not messing around. How did how did all this start
• 2:06
  Speaker 1: for you? And when I say this, I mean your
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  Speaker 1: interest in uh psychology, your pursuit the specialty of narcissism.
• 2:19
  Speaker 1: Let's go go.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, so that's a fair question. I well, I wanted
• 2:24
  Speaker 2: to become a psychologist. That sort of developed when I
• 2:28
  Speaker 2: was very young, and it really kind of started, I
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  Speaker 2: guess when I think about it from my mom. My
• 2:36
  Speaker 2: mom is very mentally ill. She's narcissistic, she's also a borderline.
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  Speaker 2: She's got a lot of really interesting traits about her.
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  Speaker 2: And just my whole life growing up, I just always
• 2:49
  Speaker 2: had this question like what is this? This is so weird,
• 2:53
  Speaker 2: like this doesn't seem normal. What what is this? Like
• 2:56
  Speaker 2: somebody can't be normal and function like this. So I
• 3:01
  Speaker 2: was just constantly questioning that. And then I didn't even
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  Speaker 2: really realize that my mom was narcissistic until really like
• 3:10
  Speaker 2: college or sorry, no, no, no, Actually it was college
• 3:13
  Speaker 2: when I was taking a psychology clust and I learned
• 3:15
  Speaker 2: about MPD and I was like, oh my god, she
• 3:19
  Speaker 2: meets like every one of those criteria that progressed into
• 3:26
  Speaker 2: you know, I was just so intrigued with it. And
• 3:29
  Speaker 2: then I met my first husband at like twenty two.
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  Speaker 2: I guess it was very niven, innocent, raised Mormon. I'm
• 3:37
  Speaker 2: not now, and so I had no experience and met
• 3:42
  Speaker 2: my first husband, who essentially was a replicant of my mom.
• 3:47
  Speaker 2: And so I was married for probably like almost fifteen years,
• 3:53
  Speaker 2: have four children, and suffered a tremendous I mean, it
• 3:57
  Speaker 2: was a terrible marriage. I did not realize that it
• 4:01
  Speaker 2: was abusive really until actually I left and so then
• 4:06
  Speaker 2: I just immersed myself in a lot of treatment. And
• 4:10
  Speaker 2: I remember this therapist. I was seeing so many different
• 4:12
  Speaker 2: therapists and nobody got it right until this one therapist,
• 4:16
  Speaker 2: and it was really he's also a drug addict. And
• 4:20
  Speaker 2: so that's why it was very confusing for me during
• 4:22
  Speaker 2: the marriage because I kept thinking, if I could just
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  Speaker 2: get that under control, everything's going to be great, everything
• 4:29
  Speaker 2: is going to be fine. Well that never happened, and
• 4:33
  Speaker 2: things just got so bad. So I finally left. But
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  Speaker 2: this therapist that I was working with, you know, she
• 4:39
  Speaker 2: was like just seeing that the core of the problem
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  Speaker 2: with this is not the drug use. It's narcissism. That's
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  Speaker 2: what it is. You know. The drug use oftentimes for
• 4:48
  Speaker 2: people who are a narcissistic, it kind of feeds their grandiosity,
• 4:52
  Speaker 2: you know, particularly like you know, alcohol or cocaine or
• 4:58
  Speaker 2: you know porn or you know, things that are really exciting,
• 5:00
  Speaker 2: you know, and dopamine releases. So I was just just like,
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  Speaker 2: wait what, And so I just became obsessed with narcissism
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  Speaker 2: at that point. I could not learn enough about it.
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  Speaker 2: And then I just immersed myself in treatment. I was
• 5:19
  Speaker 2: seeing a therapist, I was seeing a spiritual healer. I
• 5:22
  Speaker 2: was somebody for like somatic experience work trying to kind
• 5:27
  Speaker 2: of heal you know, my trauma and you know, and
• 5:29
  Speaker 2: my body connected with myself. I was doing yoga, I
• 5:32
  Speaker 2: mean truly I was. I could not have done anymore.
• 5:35
  Speaker 2: And that was kind of the staple I guess for
• 5:40
  Speaker 2: me eventually forming my coaching business.
• 5:43
  Speaker 1: Which is what Okay, let me let me interduct here.
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  Speaker 1: So what is we hear about narcissism? Narcissism? What is it? So?
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  Speaker 2: Narcissism is essentially you could describe it as like a
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  Speaker 2: personality trade. It's like a whole list of traits and
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  Speaker 2: behaviors that makes somebody narcissistic. So it really is in
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  Speaker 2: a way, like a way of describing somebody, you know,
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  Speaker 2: it's also a whole list of traits and so for
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  Speaker 2: somebody to so people oftentimes are like my partners, like
• 6:18
  Speaker 2: super selfish, he's a narcissist. No, not necessarily. It's a
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  Speaker 2: combination of this list of consistent across a lifespan of
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  Speaker 2: personality traits and temperament that makes someone narcissistic. So the
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  Speaker 2: typical ones are you know, entitlement, grandiosity, pathological, selfishness, line
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  Speaker 2: gas lighting, you know, inability to be accountable, uh, blaming
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  Speaker 2: you somebody who has this excessive need for admiration, attention, validation.
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  Speaker 2: And so when you get this whole list, then you
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  Speaker 2: can pretty much confirm that somebody is narcissistic. Now I'd
• 7:11
  Speaker 2: have to say, like when I work with people, they
• 7:13
  Speaker 2: really have a hard time of like it are they
• 7:17
  Speaker 2: aren't they? I don't want to diagnose. Okay, I don't
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  Speaker 2: even care. That's fine, don't call them, you know, a narcissist.
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  Speaker 2: Let's focus on the problematic behavior that has been a
• 7:27
  Speaker 2: pattern that you have consistently seen in this relationship. Because
• 7:31
  Speaker 2: what we know about personality is it really is stable
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  Speaker 2: over a lifetime. You know, for somebody who is maybe
• 7:37
  Speaker 2: an introvert, you know when they are young, that's going
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  Speaker 2: to be stable. That's a temperament, that's a trait, and
• 7:43
  Speaker 2: personality is stable as well. That's why this is like
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  Speaker 2: a lifetime of this problematic behavior that you see in
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  Speaker 2: a relationship.
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  Speaker 1: Okay, so let's take us back a little when you
• 7:58
  Speaker 1: were young to your mom. Give us a little window
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  Speaker 1: of what that looked like.
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  Speaker 2: She was really Uh, let's see emotionally disregulated. Oh and entitlement.
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  Speaker 2: I don't know if I included that. Yeah, it's a
• 8:14
  Speaker 2: huge one. Entitlement, air agance, all of that. She was
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  Speaker 2: incredibly emotionally disregulated. She would just completely freak out and
• 8:24
  Speaker 2: just become disregulated so easily over like something that's like
• 8:29
  Speaker 2: kind of small. She was very manipulative and controlling, uh,
• 8:37
  Speaker 2: toward my dad. I mean she really isolated my dad.
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  Speaker 2: He cut off, he had to cut off his entire family,
• 8:43
  Speaker 2: which they're lovely people because of her. She had this
• 8:48
  Speaker 2: ongoing my entire life. She has I think like literally
• 8:53
  Speaker 2: probably like twenty six lawsuits that she's sue people. So
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  Speaker 2: I would probably describe her as a little bit more
• 8:59
  Speaker 2: of maybe a malignant She also has the vulnerability as well.
• 9:03
  Speaker 2: She's the victim like poor me, but she has sued literally,
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  Speaker 2: I mean she has sued multiple family members. She has
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  Speaker 2: sued like the irs, she sued like hospitals, she sued
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  Speaker 2: her sisters, I mean, she sued the Mormon Church. I
• 9:19
  Speaker 2: mean the list like goes on. And she's never won
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  Speaker 2: any lawsuit because these were all very distorted cases of
• 9:27
  Speaker 2: her imagination of why you know, she deserves this, but
• 9:31
  Speaker 2: it did stop her, So it was always everybody's fault,
• 9:35
  Speaker 2: everybody's out to get her. So just this ongoing blaming
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  Speaker 2: this victim, but just in general, this consistent chaos. Consistent chaos,
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  Speaker 2: and her disregulated emotions were you know, she was working
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  Speaker 2: on a case or something, one of her lawsuits, and
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  Speaker 2: then she would get the letter in the mail and
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  Speaker 2: she would just completely freak out, and it just the
• 9:59
  Speaker 2: entire house is just on high alert, you know, the
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  Speaker 2: hypervigilance and walking on eggshells. And I also saw how
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  Speaker 2: she really never was able to form a healthy relationship
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  Speaker 2: with anybody in her life. I mean all of her sisters.
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  Speaker 2: She had very few friends, and so a lot of
• 10:21
  Speaker 2: like isolation, but just control. She really needed to be in,
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  Speaker 2: you know, dominating, controlling, manipulating, condescending. She's really great at manipulating,
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  Speaker 2: and she's really like you see the charm too, because
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  Speaker 2: when she would like walk into a room or like
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  Speaker 2: you know, like a I don't know, like a wedding
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  Speaker 2: or something like that, you know, she's very friendly, she's talkative,
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  Speaker 2: so you see like the you know, the charm. But
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  Speaker 2: her intention was always to dominate, when to exploit, to
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  Speaker 2: find ways to essentially harm other people, you know, for
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  Speaker 2: her own gain.
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  Speaker 1: You mentioned that your your first husband, also what's the
• 11:10
  Speaker 1: proper term, was a narcissist or suffered from n MPD
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  Speaker 1: narcissisic personality disorder, was diagnosed with NPD. I'm assuming there
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  Speaker 1: was a charm there as well. But before before we go,
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  Speaker 1: there is some might some listening might think, well, her
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  Speaker 1: mother had this, it's not surprising that she was attracted.
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  Speaker 1: How is that surprising or what?
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  Speaker 2: Absolutely, there's always you know, this is one thing I
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  Speaker 2: helped my clients is there's always reasons why we get
• 11:44
  Speaker 2: through situations like this, and we have to really for
• 11:48
  Speaker 2: healing and recovery, we have to understand and get clarity
• 11:51
  Speaker 2: on our backstory. It's not about blame or shame, it's
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  Speaker 2: about trying to understand. And so I just it was
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  Speaker 2: normal for me. It felt familiar. And also this power
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  Speaker 2: differential too, where you know he you know, I was broke,
• 12:07
  Speaker 2: I had no money and I came from no money,
• 12:10
  Speaker 2: and you know he had higher financial status and was
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  Speaker 2: extremely educated, and so there was automatically this huge power
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  Speaker 2: difference which contribute, which can set you up for getting
• 12:26
  Speaker 2: in a dynamic like this where you can you know,
• 12:30
  Speaker 2: be in a relationship with somebody who is an abuser.
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  Speaker 2: You know, they abuse that power and then this is
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  Speaker 2: really when like trauma bonds are formed two and there's
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  Speaker 2: a power difference. But I just want to make a correction.
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  Speaker 2: He was not ever diagnosed. That's just my own assessment.
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  Speaker 2: But it was absolutely that whole power control, dominating and everything.
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  Speaker 2: It was very familiar to me.
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  Speaker 1: This It sounds exhausting, not just exhausting, but traumatic and exhausting.
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  Speaker 1: And this whole idea of gas lighting and explain gaslighting
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  Speaker 1: for those who aren't familiar.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, so gas lighting is this manipulative technique that abusers
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  Speaker 2: use where they want to change your perception about something
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  Speaker 2: and so you you know, essentially they want to change
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  Speaker 2: your experience and your perception and narrative of something because
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  Speaker 2: they want to keep living how they are and they
• 13:34
  Speaker 2: don't want to ever be accountable. And so gas lighting
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  Speaker 2: for the victim can feel like they're drowning in second
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  Speaker 2: guessing themselves. They're questioning things, they're so confused, they're like,
• 13:47
  Speaker 2: wait a minute, I'm pretty sure that happened, but you're
• 13:50
  Speaker 2: telling me that it didn't, and I'm pretty sure it happened.
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  Speaker 2: So this is a very malicious, intentional behavior for the abuser,
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  Speaker 2: like they know what they're doing. They probably don't know
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  Speaker 2: what the term is, but it is definitely intentional because
• 14:08
  Speaker 2: other times when people they call it gas lighting, but
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  Speaker 2: it's not like gaslighting is very much intentional and it's malicious.
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  Speaker 2: It has this intent of changing your perception of something
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  Speaker 2: for your gain.
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  Speaker 1: I just want to remind everyone. I speaking with doctor
• 14:27
  Speaker 1: Justine Webber. Her book is called How the Fuck Do
• 14:30
  Speaker 1: I Heal From This? So let's get into this. I mean,
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  Speaker 1: as you're talking, I'm thinking, how do you how do
• 14:38
  Speaker 1: you get through this? How do you heal from this?
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  Speaker 1: First of all, how did you get to the point
• 14:45
  Speaker 1: where you're like I want to write this book or
• 14:48
  Speaker 1: I need to write this book, or I got to
• 14:51
  Speaker 1: write this book or was that like.
• 14:54
  Speaker 2: Sure, yeah, that was I mean, I guess I can
• 14:57
  Speaker 2: call myself an author, but I don't really feel like
• 14:59
  Speaker 2: an author because this will probably be like my one
• 15:03
  Speaker 2: and only It was definitely interesting. I guess initially what
• 15:09
  Speaker 2: sparked my interest in writing a book is when I
• 15:12
  Speaker 2: launched my coaching business. I literally was like, I have
• 15:15
  Speaker 2: no idea. This could be a huge flop. It could
• 15:17
  Speaker 2: be a big failure, but you know what, I am
• 15:21
  Speaker 2: so passionate about this that I almost was like, I
• 15:24
  Speaker 2: don't even care. I'm going to try even if this
• 15:26
  Speaker 2: is a failure. Because it was a huge financial investment
• 15:29
  Speaker 2: and I started a social media account and I didn't
• 15:34
  Speaker 2: know anything about it, and so I had to hire
• 15:36
  Speaker 2: a company to help me like filming and so forth.
• 15:39
  Speaker 2: But I grew so quickly, like so quickly. I mean
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  Speaker 2: I started off with like four hundred followers and within
• 15:47
  Speaker 2: a really short period of time, you know, you know,
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  Speaker 2: it went from like ten thousand, you know, to fifteen thousand,
• 15:52
  Speaker 2: and so I realized at that point, like how many
• 15:57
  Speaker 2: people are wondering about this and suffering. And I was like,
• 16:03
  Speaker 2: I just have to find a way to really connect
• 16:07
  Speaker 2: with so many more people that are in this place
• 16:10
  Speaker 2: of like what the f what is this? I'm so confused,
• 16:15
  Speaker 2: I'm so broken. I feel so like debilitated, like what
• 16:20
  Speaker 2: is this? And so that's when I made the decision.
• 16:24
  Speaker 2: I'm like, you know, I just need to get a
• 16:28
  Speaker 2: book out there to help even more people, even you know,
• 16:32
  Speaker 2: if they're not following me.
• 16:33
  Speaker 1: Well, let's talk about the book a little bit. What
• 16:36
  Speaker 1: did you want to accomplish through the book. And who's
• 16:39
  Speaker 1: it for.
• 16:41
  Speaker 2: It's really for a client. I primarily work with women.
• 16:45
  Speaker 2: I do work with men as well, And the interesting
• 16:48
  Speaker 2: thing is that the men that I've worked with, who
• 16:51
  Speaker 2: are usually like going through divorce or leaving their ex
• 16:55
  Speaker 2: wives or wives, are oftentimes so much work than the
• 17:02
  Speaker 2: female clients I work with in their ex husbands, just
• 17:05
  Speaker 2: like they're almost like psychopaths. They are just out to destroy.
• 17:12
  Speaker 2: This one client I worked with, he ended up like
• 17:14
  Speaker 2: living in his car for a while because and I
• 17:17
  Speaker 2: mean this man was like a very successful businessman and
• 17:21
  Speaker 2: his wife just completely destroyed him in every way. It
• 17:26
  Speaker 2: was so sad. But to your point, so who is
• 17:29
  Speaker 2: the message really? The typical audience would be a woman
• 17:34
  Speaker 2: who has been in a long term relationship or a
• 17:37
  Speaker 2: man and they are at this place where they're coming
• 17:42
  Speaker 2: they're leaving, and they are recognizing like this is bad,
• 17:47
  Speaker 2: this is abusive, I need to get out. But they're
• 17:51
  Speaker 2: in this place like they don't know what it is
• 17:54
  Speaker 2: and they want like help to kind of give them
• 17:58
  Speaker 2: some guidance and handholding along the way of you know,
• 18:03
  Speaker 2: identifying what this is. I have some chapters or a
• 18:09
  Speaker 2: chapter on trauma, you know, because that's a really big
• 18:13
  Speaker 2: piece and the why this is psychological abuse and why
• 18:16
  Speaker 2: it changes the brain. I mean, there's research that shows
• 18:19
  Speaker 2: that it changes the size of you know, the hippocampus,
• 18:22
  Speaker 2: the prefrontal cortex, the you know, amygdala and everything. And
• 18:26
  Speaker 2: so to be able to put words to experiences that
• 18:30
  Speaker 2: have been so painful and you've been living in this
• 18:33
  Speaker 2: fog for such a long time is so incredibly powerful.
• 18:38
  Speaker 2: I mean, I'm living proof and I'm a shrink, and
• 18:41
  Speaker 2: so for me to stay as long as I did,
• 18:45
  Speaker 2: you know, when I already knew my mom you know,
• 18:49
  Speaker 2: was like narcissistic and everything. It just really speaks to
• 18:54
  Speaker 2: It doesn't make you stupid, you know, there's nothing about that.
• 18:58
  Speaker 2: It just speaks to how confusing these relationships are when
• 19:03
  Speaker 2: you're in it, and how it can truly make you
• 19:06
  Speaker 2: feel like you're living in a fog where you just
• 19:09
  Speaker 2: absolutely cannot see things clearly. And then once you you know,
• 19:13
  Speaker 2: because that's another piece is when you're in relationships like that,
• 19:16
  Speaker 2: they tend to like isolate you, and so you lose
• 19:19
  Speaker 2: your capacity of having any sounding board or anybody that
• 19:24
  Speaker 2: is going to foster that sense of reality. And clarity
• 19:28
  Speaker 2: for you, which is really what you need. So oftentimes
• 19:32
  Speaker 2: when you leave that environment, that's where you can start
• 19:37
  Speaker 2: unpacking all of this and beginning to rebuild the self.
• 19:45
  Speaker 1: So this is very much and correct me if I'm
• 19:47
  Speaker 1: wrong here. Psychological abuse absolutely trauma, the trauma that comes
• 19:54
  Speaker 1: from that. And unlike physical abuse, I mean even physical abuse,
• 20:01
  Speaker 1: people who are victimized with physical abuse, we often hear that,
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: you know, they tend to stay or can stay in
• 20:09
  Speaker 1: that relationship. But here there's a psychological abuse that just
• 20:13
  Speaker 1: sounds tormenting. It sounds just incredibly suffocating and harmful. My gosh.
• 20:25
  Speaker 1: So enmeshment healing, let's talk about these things. What is
• 20:33
  Speaker 1: enmeshment here in this context?
• 20:36
  Speaker 2: So in measurement, there's a few categories that I've you know,
• 20:41
  Speaker 2: realized with enmeshment. There's en meshment with narcissistic people, like
• 20:46
  Speaker 2: if you have a narcissistic parent and you know, and
• 20:51
  Speaker 2: meshment is essentially where there's no boundaries in a relationship.
• 20:56
  Speaker 2: And essentially when a parent uses h child to serve
• 21:01
  Speaker 2: their emotional needs. That's why this is incredibly abusive. So
• 21:07
  Speaker 2: you lose this self essentially, and so this is very
• 21:11
  Speaker 2: much in narcissistic dynamics. Uh, this is very much again malicious,
• 21:17
  Speaker 2: it's calculated. I do believe that they kind of they
• 21:21
  Speaker 2: probably don't know the terms, but they have that awareness
• 21:23
  Speaker 2: of like what they're doing because they're they are all
• 21:27
  Speaker 2: they're cohersive controllers. All narcissistic people are cohersive controllers, which
• 21:32
  Speaker 2: is expands the realm of like not just physical or sexual,
• 21:38
  Speaker 2: it's everything. It's psychological, it's gas lighting, it's manipulating, it's intimidating,
• 21:45
  Speaker 2: it's instilling fear, it's you know, where the you know,
• 21:50
  Speaker 2: it's about dominating and how overpowering someone else. And so
• 21:54
  Speaker 2: for the victim who is being controlled like this, you know,
• 21:58
  Speaker 2: they're oftentimes broken and it's debilitating it they oftentimes just
• 22:04
  Speaker 2: have this like dread. I mean, it's just so horrific.
• 22:07
  Speaker 2: So for narcissistic people it is different. I do think
• 22:10
  Speaker 2: it is malicious. However, there are other categories of people
• 22:16
  Speaker 2: who form and meshed relationships with their children and they
• 22:21
  Speaker 2: really are unaware and it's really innocent, like they're not
• 22:26
  Speaker 2: trying to you know, they don't know what they're doing,
• 22:30
  Speaker 2: I guess, is what I'm saying. You really don't know
• 22:32
  Speaker 2: what they're doing. They believe very much. I've talked to
• 22:34
  Speaker 2: a bunch of these parents. They are so close with
• 22:37
  Speaker 2: their son and they just have this great relationship and
• 22:41
  Speaker 2: they're so close and they share each other everything. They
• 22:44
  Speaker 2: really believe that they're a good parent. But and mesh
• 22:48
  Speaker 2: Men is truly like this child serves a job when
• 22:53
  Speaker 2: you like birth them, and as they grow older, their
• 22:57
  Speaker 2: job is their role. They have a duty and obligation
• 23:02
  Speaker 2: to meet your needs of validation, you know, intimacy, connection,
• 23:09
  Speaker 2: you know, you know, ego fulfillment, you know, you know,
• 23:16
  Speaker 2: a sense of purpose in life. And so the child
• 23:20
  Speaker 2: just does not have a self. It like merges. There's
• 23:25
  Speaker 2: no boundaries, there's no autonomy, there's no independence at all.
• 23:29
  Speaker 2: It's incredibly sad and destructive.
• 23:34
  Speaker 1: Especially for a young kid who grows up not knowing
• 23:36
  Speaker 1: any better. This sounds even more debilitating when it happens
• 23:40
  Speaker 1: for a young kid.
• 23:41
  Speaker 2: Right, absolutely, I like I noticed these parents, like some
• 23:51
  Speaker 2: of the typical kind of traits are like you know,
• 23:55
  Speaker 2: they are just overbearing with their childs, like they are
• 24:00
  Speaker 2: overly protective. They are like the mom where they're at
• 24:04
  Speaker 2: every single sports game, you know, drop them off, pick
• 24:07
  Speaker 2: them up. You know, they're like the pta mom and
• 24:11
  Speaker 2: they're coming into the classroom and putting on parties. So
• 24:13
  Speaker 2: can you see how like to the outside world it
• 24:16
  Speaker 2: can be very confusing for child because you probably have
• 24:19
  Speaker 2: a teacher who's like, oh my gosh, your mom is
• 24:21
  Speaker 2: so sweets you so much, she's such a good mom.
• 24:24
  Speaker 2: But it is very much embedded. It literally is like
• 24:28
  Speaker 2: this smothering of you. It very much is embedded of
• 24:31
  Speaker 2: like you serve my needs. And so this child is
• 24:36
  Speaker 2: like a friend, you know, sarahates spouse. I'm sure you've
• 24:41
  Speaker 2: heard of that term. You know, they are the friend,
• 24:45
  Speaker 2: the sister, the therapist, the husband of the mom, and
• 24:51
  Speaker 2: it's like that for the rest of their life. It's
• 24:54
  Speaker 2: so incredibly sad. But I've also seen a lot of
• 24:56
  Speaker 2: like sexualizing too, where you know, the mom will sexualize
• 25:03
  Speaker 2: the son, and then the son because their job and
• 25:06
  Speaker 2: role is to serve the mom, they will give the
• 25:10
  Speaker 2: mom like the sexualized attention that she's really wanting. And
• 25:16
  Speaker 2: so I see this in like a few different categories
• 25:20
  Speaker 2: where maybe there's a mom who does not have a
• 25:23
  Speaker 2: husband for whatever reason, either he died, they got a divorce,
• 25:26
  Speaker 2: he's not in the picture. Research shows that only children
• 25:31
  Speaker 2: have a much higher chance of this forming. When they're
• 25:34
  Speaker 2: only children, or even if she's married to the husband
• 25:40
  Speaker 2: or the dad, they just don't have really a connected relationship.
• 25:44
  Speaker 2: Either he's got physical problems or just something's wrong where
• 25:48
  Speaker 2: there's no connection in intimacy and attachment, and so this
• 25:53
  Speaker 2: son becomes that replacement. And so these kids, it's just
• 25:59
  Speaker 2: so incredibly said. So I typically get calls from wives
• 26:03
  Speaker 2: actually who are married to men like this, who have
• 26:06
  Speaker 2: this enmeshed inappropriate relationship with their mom, and as you
• 26:11
  Speaker 2: can expect, it interferes in the marriage because the mom
• 26:15
  Speaker 2: is incredibly jealous, she really does. She finds this wife
• 26:21
  Speaker 2: a threat where it's like, you're taking my son away,
• 26:25
  Speaker 2: And so it causes so many problems in a marriage
• 26:29
  Speaker 2: where you know, at some point you really do have
• 26:31
  Speaker 2: to choose like your mom or your wife. And it
• 26:35
  Speaker 2: becomes so complicated because these sons have been drowning in guilt, obligation,
• 26:44
  Speaker 2: you know, duty, and these moms are so manipulating where
• 26:48
  Speaker 2: it's like if you try to send about, you know,
• 26:50
  Speaker 2: try to set a boundary to distance yourself, it's like,
• 26:53
  Speaker 2: how dare you you know, it's met with rage and anger.
• 26:57
  Speaker 2: I've done everything for you.
• 26:59
  Speaker 1: I have.
• 26:59
  Speaker 2: I gave up a career for you. I was at
• 27:03
  Speaker 2: every single baseball game of yours. How dare you for
• 27:07
  Speaker 2: treating me like this? And can you see how damaging
• 27:12
  Speaker 2: this is? That is not the job of parents. When
• 27:14
  Speaker 2: you decide to have a child, Your job is to
• 27:17
  Speaker 2: provide unconditional and positive regard for this child, to create
• 27:21
  Speaker 2: a sense of safety where the child eventually forms independence, autonomy, separateness,
• 27:28
  Speaker 2: separate values, likes and dislikes. It is so damaging when
• 27:33
  Speaker 2: you take that from them.
• 27:36
  Speaker 1: God, So let's kind of shift gears here as we
• 27:41
  Speaker 1: kind of wind down. Who do you work with? You
• 27:45
  Speaker 1: work with clients, you said a lot of women. Do
• 27:48
  Speaker 1: you also work with therapists? Do you provide coaching to
• 27:51
  Speaker 1: them people who want to learn more about this or
• 27:54
  Speaker 1: what not?
• 27:56
  Speaker 2: Yet? I mean, that is something I'd like to That's
• 27:59
  Speaker 2: another piece of my coaching business that I would like
• 28:01
  Speaker 2: to begin doing is probably doing those online courses and
• 28:06
  Speaker 2: working with more professionals. But I don't have that yet.
• 28:11
  Speaker 2: Therapists definitely need to be trained in this. I have
• 28:15
  Speaker 2: just had heard the most horrific stories from clients of
• 28:19
  Speaker 2: terrible information that the therapist has said to them, which
• 28:23
  Speaker 2: has just contributed to more of the you know, being
• 28:26
  Speaker 2: a victim and everything. And so yeah, that is something
• 28:31
  Speaker 2: that I would like to get into next Okay.
• 28:34
  Speaker 1: But for example, if there are a lot of therapists
• 28:37
  Speaker 1: will listen to this, maybe they are not qualified, maybe
• 28:40
  Speaker 1: they can send clients your way for coaching, I.
• 28:46
  Speaker 2: Would absolutely do, just like you know, supervision or you
• 28:51
  Speaker 2: know like that.
• 28:52
  Speaker 1: Absolutely okay, So what's the best way for people to
• 28:54
  Speaker 1: reach out and learn more about what you're doing?
• 28:57
  Speaker 2: So I have so my coaching business website is doctor
• 29:01
  Speaker 2: Justin Weber dot com. My private practice website is Sereneshift
• 29:08
  Speaker 2: dot com. That's the one in California. And then I'm
• 29:11
  Speaker 2: on all of the social media platforms. I'm on TikTok, Instagram,
• 29:15
  Speaker 2: and what's the other one.
• 29:18
  Speaker 1: In Facebook and book Yeah, okay, I.
• 29:21
  Speaker 2: Mainly use Instagram. So you can always reach out to
• 29:26
  Speaker 2: me like direct message on Facebook and Instagram. They can
• 29:31
  Speaker 2: call me too, my phone numbers. I mean a lot
• 29:34
  Speaker 2: of people I'm really casual about that call my work.
• 29:38
  Speaker 2: All It's fine, Okay, that's on my website too.
• 29:42
  Speaker 1: All right, we'll have that linked up here at the
• 29:43
  Speaker 1: show notes page at the Trauma Therapist podcast dot com. Justine, awesome,
• 29:49
  Speaker 1: intense love to have you back because I know there's
• 29:52
  Speaker 1: so much to talk about, but I really appreciate you
• 29:56
  Speaker 1: being here and sharing your story. I know this is
• 29:59
  Speaker 1: gonna be helpful for a lot of the people and
• 30:02
  Speaker 1: look forward to talking to with you again.
• 30:04
  Speaker 2: Thank you so much.
• 30:05
  Speaker 1: All right, take care, m M M