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The Dark Side of Social Media You Must Hear About · Motivation Mindset Podcast

• 0:08
  Speaker 1: Even early on, this was clear that social media made
• 0:10
  Speaker 1: money off your attention. It's being engineered to get as
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: much attention as possible. That seemed like they were engineered
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: to really distract you. We all looked at it with
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: great suspicion. So I didn't sign up for arbitrary reasons.
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: And then once I was in this unusual professional environment,
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: it became really suspicious of why would I bring one
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: of these tools into my life. It seems like it's
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: going to get in the way of what I'm doing.
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: It would be like a professional athlete looking at cigarettes
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: and saying, you know, I don't really want to bring
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: these into my life because I make a living off
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: my lung capacity. Well, so the issue I had with
• 0:39
  Speaker 1: social media was twofold.
• 0:41
  Speaker 2: One.
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: No one really had a good reason why I should
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: be signing up for it. That definitely caught my attention.
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: It was like, because it's here, and I'm like, okay,
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: but what do you do on the Facebook dot com? Like, well,
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: you know, you see like who your roommate's boyfriends are
• 0:54
  Speaker 1: dating or something, but that's not interesting me. Well, why
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: should I sign up for this? No one was really
• 0:58
  Speaker 1: giving me a good reason. And two it became clear
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: pretty early on that these platforms had a lot of
• 1:05
  Speaker 1: energy being invested into making them as sticky as an
• 1:08
  Speaker 1: experience as possible. They had the ability to manipulate your attention,
• 1:11
  Speaker 1: to manipulate your emotional centers, to manipulate your social centers.
• 1:15
  Speaker 1: They get you to look at these things much longer
• 1:18
  Speaker 1: than you knew was useful, much longer than you knew
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: was healthy, in a way that you couldn't really replicate
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: with something that was as asymmetric and static as television.
• 1:25
  Speaker 1: So I was really starting to get concerned when I
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  Speaker 1: saw people with these networks following them everywhere they went,
• 1:32
  Speaker 1: and it was constantly pulling their attention down to that phone, right,
• 1:35
  Speaker 1: So there seemed to be something new going on. So
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: we had these platforms where no one could really explain
• 1:39
  Speaker 1: why I needed to be on it, and yet it
• 1:41
  Speaker 1: also seemed to be capturing so much of people's time
• 1:43
  Speaker 1: and attention that for someone who made a living with
• 1:46
  Speaker 1: my brain, I was very very wary about this.
• 1:49
  Speaker 2: So can you tell me what you think is social media?
• 1:52
  Speaker 2: So maybe say this company, that company, this company social media?
• 1:55
  Speaker 2: What is social media to you?
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  Speaker 1: You know, typically, when I'm using the term I'm thinking
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  Speaker 1: about a tim economy platforms where your data, time and
• 2:04
  Speaker 1: attention is the primary product, the primary thing they're extracting
• 2:07
  Speaker 1: to sell. And I make a distinction between social media
• 2:11
  Speaker 1: and the social Internet. I'm a big early booster of
• 2:13
  Speaker 1: the Internet and the social Internet. I think using the
• 2:15
  Speaker 1: Internet for expression and connection is very important. So it's
• 2:19
  Speaker 1: really that attention manipulation aspect. It's a large platform, close
• 2:23
  Speaker 1: garden trying to extract monetize your data, your attention. So
• 2:27
  Speaker 1: that would be you know, it's hard to keep up with,
• 2:29
  Speaker 1: but the classics would be Facebook, it'd be Twitter, it
• 2:32
  Speaker 1: would be Instagram, it would be TikTok.
• 2:36
  Speaker 2: So then that goes back to Twitter, Facebook, Instagram being
• 2:41
  Speaker 2: ones that you have a challenge with, and it's is
• 2:43
  Speaker 2: it mainly because they get to dictate what you watch next,
• 2:50
  Speaker 2: and they're able to trigger and kind of manipulate the
• 2:53
  Speaker 2: whole thing to say, Hey, cal you like this, let
• 2:55
  Speaker 2: me feed you some more of this. Hey like the
• 2:57
  Speaker 2: whole social Dilemma documentary. I'm assuming that's the part that
• 3:00
  Speaker 2: you don't see any value in using those social media platforms.
• 3:04
  Speaker 2: Is that a good way of putting it?
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  Speaker 1: So, again, the way I think about things through my
• 3:09
  Speaker 1: digital minimalism perspective is there's not something I really value
• 3:13
  Speaker 1: in life for which any of those platforms is a
• 3:15
  Speaker 1: really big win. The thing I'm very wary of is
• 3:18
  Speaker 1: what I think, especially with tech, it's very dangerous to
• 3:21
  Speaker 1: approach tech from the ask the mindset of could there
• 3:23
  Speaker 1: be some value here? If so, why don't I try it?
• 3:26
  Speaker 1: In some settings? That's okay, it's nice to explore. But
• 3:29
  Speaker 1: because of the things you're talking about, that's a dangerous
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  Speaker 1: decision in the world of the social media networks because
• 3:34
  Speaker 1: innocently let me just like do some Instagram might end
• 3:38
  Speaker 1: up being seven hours a day. It might end up
• 3:41
  Speaker 1: being I am on this way more than I think
• 3:43
  Speaker 1: it's useful, way more than I think is healthy. So
• 3:45
  Speaker 1: you have to be a little bit more wary with
• 3:46
  Speaker 1: these platforms because they are very good at grabbing your
• 3:50
  Speaker 1: attention once they're there. So I keep coming back to look,
• 3:52
  Speaker 1: if there's a big win, I'll use it. But it
• 3:54
  Speaker 1: could be interesting, You could find some new readers. There
• 3:57
  Speaker 1: might be something interesting that's not going to be compelling
• 3:59
  Speaker 1: enough for me, especially when there's so many of these
• 4:01
  Speaker 1: attention traps that have been engineered into the services, so
• 4:03
  Speaker 1: I'm very wary. I think a probably a strategic mistake
• 4:08
  Speaker 1: that was made by the major platforms is starting around
• 4:12
  Speaker 1: twenty twelve to twenty fifteen, they said, we're going to
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  Speaker 1: shift away from the original premise, which is this is
• 4:19
  Speaker 1: a place to connect with people you know, and we're
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  Speaker 1: going to switch instead towards a newsfeed model. We are
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  Speaker 1: going to use algorithmic information to get you a steady
• 4:27
  Speaker 1: stream of things that's going to be engaging to you.
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  Speaker 1: And a lot of people just migrated things like sharing
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  Speaker 1: photos with their family. They're like, well, fine, I'm not
• 4:33
  Speaker 1: going to do this on Facebook. I'm going to do
• 4:35
  Speaker 1: it on a group text message chain. I think ultimately
• 4:38
  Speaker 1: that's probably going to be an issue for these platforms
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  Speaker 1: because if they lose their network effect advantage, if it
• 4:42
  Speaker 1: doesn't matter to me whether or not my cousin is
• 4:44
  Speaker 1: on Facebook, because I can just send him a picture
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  Speaker 1: of my kids on I message, Now Facebook's advantage why
• 4:52
  Speaker 1: I have to use that platform gets way reduced once
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  Speaker 1: it becomes just a source of entertainment. Yeah, it's a
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  Speaker 1: stream of stuff that algorithms are selecting. It's engaging, it's
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  Speaker 1: competing with every other form of entertainment out there, much
• 5:02
  Speaker 1: more competitive landscape.
• 5:05
  Speaker 2: Why would you think one hundred percent of what social
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  Speaker 2: media offers isn't good Because you can turn off the
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  Speaker 2: triggers and all the advertising in the way that Facebook, Instagram,
• 5:14
  Speaker 2: Twitter tries to trigger your mind, you can control that.
• 5:18
  Speaker 2: But why still say no to social media on the
• 5:20
  Speaker 2: positive size that it offers to you?
• 5:22
  Speaker 1: So back in twenty nineteen, I wrote a book called
• 5:26
  Speaker 1: Digital Minimalism, where this was the question, how do you
• 5:29
  Speaker 1: figure out the use of technology in your personal life?
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  Speaker 1: And the answer to that book was not here's the
• 5:34
  Speaker 1: good things and here's the bad things. No one should
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  Speaker 1: use social media, everyone should use watch movies or whatever.
• 5:39
  Speaker 1: The philosophy that came out of that book was essentially,
• 5:41
  Speaker 1: what's important here is working backwards from what you value,
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  Speaker 1: what you care about, your vision of what you want
• 5:48
  Speaker 1: your life to be like. Once you're really set what's
• 5:50
  Speaker 1: important to you in your life, then you can work
• 5:52
  Speaker 1: backwards and say, what's the best way to use technology
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  Speaker 1: to amplify these things I care about? And I had
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  Speaker 1: sixteen hundred people go through this experiment where they got
• 6:00
  Speaker 1: of all the technology, all the optional technology in the
• 6:02
  Speaker 1: personal life, spend a month really reflecting what do I
• 6:05
  Speaker 1: care about, what I want my life to be like,
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  Speaker 1: and then rebuilding their digital life from scratch. About fifty
• 6:10
  Speaker 1: percent of them had social media as part of that answer. So,
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  Speaker 1: to me, what's important is not what tech is good
• 6:15
  Speaker 1: and what tech is bad. It is are you deploying
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  Speaker 1: tech intentionally? Oh, here's something I care about. You know,
• 6:21
  Speaker 1: I'm an artist, and there's these other artists who put
• 6:24
  Speaker 1: their works in progress on Instagram, and seeing other artists
• 6:27
  Speaker 1: in my fields works in progress is crucial to my
• 6:29
  Speaker 1: creative process. So yes, I use Instagram for this purpose.
• 6:33
  Speaker 1: That's fantastic, right. That's deploying technology intentionally the support things
• 6:38
  Speaker 1: you really care about. And so that philosophy, which I
• 6:40
  Speaker 1: call digital minimalism, is what I really been pushing now.
• 6:42
  Speaker 1: For me, when I go through the things that are
• 6:44
  Speaker 1: important to me and I want to spend time on,
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  Speaker 1: and I use tech in a lot of intentional ways,
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  Speaker 1: social media just hasn't made to cut right. There's no
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  Speaker 1: particular thing in my particular life that this is very
• 6:53
  Speaker 1: important to me where social media is a really good
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  Speaker 1: way of using tech to benefit it. So it's not
• 6:57
  Speaker 1: in my life, but for other people, they answer that
• 7:00
  Speaker 1: question differently. I care about how people ask it, not
• 7:04
  Speaker 1: necessarily the answers that they end up with.
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  Speaker 2: Do you think you will ever get on social media? Like,
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  Speaker 2: do you think they'll ever come a moment where you'll say,
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  Speaker 2: I think it makes sense for me to open up
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  Speaker 2: an account now, or do you think you'll never do it?
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  Speaker 1: For me to say I don't see a lot of
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  Speaker 1: value in social media for what I'm doing right now,
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  Speaker 1: It's not an indictment on the existence of the technology.
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  Speaker 2: Right.
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  Speaker 1: Just like I was saying with the bike riding analogy before,
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  Speaker 1: I'm happy if someone's really friends who are really in
• 7:31
  Speaker 1: the bike riding. I think it's a cool sport. But
• 7:33
  Speaker 1: if they really started bothering me, like cow, why don't
• 7:35
  Speaker 1: you bike ride? Don't you see that this is going
• 7:37
  Speaker 1: to make you healthy and has these advantages or whatever?
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  Speaker 2: It's like.
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  Speaker 1: Look, just because I'm not doing it, I'm not trying
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  Speaker 1: to put down that you do. But I'm not out
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  Speaker 1: there saying we should burn bikes. I mean, again, the
• 7:47
  Speaker 1: way I come at things is do less, do more,
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  Speaker 1: do better? Right, So I'm very intentional and very picky,
• 7:54
  Speaker 1: but I mean, think about the tech I do use.
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  Speaker 1: I like the strategic deployment at a tech When I
• 7:58
  Speaker 1: see a big win, like I have a blog, which
• 8:01
  Speaker 1: I've had since two thousand and seven, that's been a
• 8:03
  Speaker 1: big win for me. You know, I have this audience.
• 8:05
  Speaker 1: I've developed my thinking, and I've had an audience for
• 8:07
  Speaker 1: fifteen years now who's been a part been part of
• 8:10
  Speaker 1: my interactions. One of the reasons why I didn't need,
• 8:13
  Speaker 1: for example, to let's say, go on Facebook, just to
• 8:17
  Speaker 1: go back to another aspect here, is that because I
• 8:20
  Speaker 1: was an early adopter of tech, I sort of already
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  Speaker 1: had my own platform, Whereas if I didn't, right, if
• 8:25
  Speaker 1: I wasn't so tech savvy, it would obviously have been
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  Speaker 1: much easier made me to post on Facebook or Twitter,
• 8:30
  Speaker 1: because one of their advantages back then in that early
• 8:32
  Speaker 1: web two point zero days was we're easier just technically speaking.
• 8:36
  Speaker 1: It's a pain to set up a WordPress and get
• 8:37
  Speaker 1: a server or whatever. But I kind of already had
• 8:39
  Speaker 1: that going. You know, absolutely, I think any technology that
• 8:42
  Speaker 1: comes along could come through that process of thinking I
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  Speaker 1: do and say, you know what, this is going to
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  Speaker 1: be a big win for this thing I really care about.
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  Speaker 1: The existing platforms just haven't passed that threshold for me yet,
• 8:56
  Speaker 1: and because again I'm very focused on the things I do,
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  Speaker 1: they haven't been big win. I care a lot about distraction,
• 9:01
  Speaker 1: So for me and my minimal is calculus, they haven't
• 9:05
  Speaker 1: crossed that threshold. The way we're working today is it's
• 9:10
  Speaker 1: almost absurd. We spend almost all of our time in
• 9:12
  Speaker 1: many office jobs checking communication channels constantly, inbox, slack teams,
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  Speaker 1: whatever it is that you use, and some of the
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  Speaker 1: data I site is once every six minutes or more
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  Speaker 1: we check in on one of these channels. And I argue,
• 9:24
  Speaker 1: if we look at the neuroscience and psychology, you can't
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  Speaker 1: do anything useful with your brain in such an environment,
• 9:28
  Speaker 1: because the context shift that you generate when you turn
• 9:32
  Speaker 1: your attention to an inbox and try to turn it
• 9:34
  Speaker 1: back to what you're working on is incredibly disastrous to
• 9:36
  Speaker 1: your ability to concentrate. And so it's a terrible way
• 9:38
  Speaker 1: to try to actually do knowledge work. And people have
• 9:40
  Speaker 1: to try to do their work in the early morning
• 9:42
  Speaker 1: or in the evening, and none.
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  Speaker 2: Of it makes sense.
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  Speaker 1: And so that way of working was pretty arbitrary. Once
• 9:46
  Speaker 1: email spread, and it's spread for very good reasons. It
• 9:49
  Speaker 1: was replacing fax machines and voicemails. Once email spread in
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  Speaker 1: its wake, people started working in this way. Well, we'll
• 9:54
  Speaker 1: just figure everything out with back and forth messages real quick.
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  Speaker 1: It's killing our ability to actually work and is making
• 9:59
  Speaker 1: us miserable. Well, the future of the world of work
• 10:02
  Speaker 1: is going to say, we're gonna have other ways of
• 10:04
  Speaker 1: collaborating that's not just back and forth unscheduled messages, and
• 10:08
  Speaker 1: we're all gonna be much happier and get a lot
• 10:09
  Speaker 1: more done. It's gonna be more of a pain to
• 10:10
  Speaker 1: figure out these new you know, there'll be more hard edges,
• 10:13
  Speaker 1: more systems, more rules,