Latest / Wealthy Woman Lawyer Podcast, Helping you create a profitable, sustainable law firm you love / Episode 247 Build a Book of Business One Curious Conversation at a Time with Deb Feder

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Episode 247 Build a Book of Business One Curious Conversation at a Time with Deb Feder · Wealthy Woman Lawyer Podcast, Helping you create a profitable, sustainable law firm you love

• 0:00
  Deb: I had a call with somebody who I need to refer out to two or three options of advisors to help them, right? And I immediately like thought about my network and I shot off an email to somebody that I did the Brene Brown training, the daring weight training years ago with and said, are you still working in this space? I've got a referral for you. Right? Immediately refer sent me a note back and was like, we must talk and catch up, but absolutely, this is what I'm doing.
• 0:27
  Davina: Is this something that you have continued to nurture nurture that relationship this whole time that sort of led you to think or that they have done to nurture that relationship to led you to think of them?
• 0:38
  Intro: Welcome to the Wealthy Woman Lawyer Podcast. What if you could hang out with successful women lawyers, ask them about growing their firms, managing resources like time, team, and systems, mastering money issues, and more? Then take an insight or two to help you build a wealth generating law firm. Each week, your host, Devina Frederick, takes an in-depth look at how to think like a CEO, attract clients who you love to serve and will pay you on time, and create a profitable, sustainable firm you love. Devina is founder and CEO of Wealthy Woman Lawyer, and her goal is to give you the information you need to scale your law firm business from six to seven figures in gross annual revenue so you can fully fund and still have time to enjoy the lifestyle of your dreams.
• 1:25
  Now here's Devina.
• 1:29
  Davina: Hi, everyone, and welcome back to the Wealthy Woman Lawyer Podcast. I'm your host, Devina Frederick, and my guest today is Deb Feder, CEO of Feder Development. Feder Development is a business development coaching company focused on helping lawyers and leaders build outstanding careers. Deb's approach focuses on turning conversations and connections into opportunities while managing the demands of modern careers. She helps lawyers and industry professionals bring in consistent clients through curious, confident conversations Using LinkedIn as a platform to validate and share ideas, Deb helps professionals across industries engage in meaningful content and connections.
• 2:11
  For the last decade, she has committed herself to changing the way we think about business development and tackling high stakes work. Prior to founding Feder Development, Deb practiced corporate law for fifteen years and holds a history degree from the University of Michigan and her JD and MBA from the University of Iowa. Her latest book, After Hello, How to Build a Book of Business One Conversation at a Time, is a guide to building a thriving law practice. It shows leaders and legal professionals how to fill their practice with clients that pick them as their trusted adviser because of their expertise and unique approach. So please join me in welcoming Deb Feder.
• 2:50
  So hi, Deb. Welcome. Well,
• 2:52
  Deb: thank you so much. Thanks for having me. I appreciate you being on. You and
• 2:57
  Davina: I were just having conversation ahead of time about what it's like to be coaches for lawyers and kind of comparing notes. And and we probably could have talked for an hour with that conversation, but I wanted to jump in and, start recording so people don't miss out on some of the juicy things we were talking about. So tell us a little bit about your the clients you typically work with.
• 3:19
  Deb: You know, I work with busy professionals who have spent years developing their expertise and experience and practice and get to a point where they look around and say, okay, what got me here isn't necessarily gonna get me to where I'm going next. And I'm ready for that new foundation, right? Whether it is how to share my expertise to a broader audience, how to, you know, expand my practice in an exponential way. So it's including my teams and rethinking business development from a new angle. Right?
• 4:01
  So it's not just getting one client or bringing in one project, but how do I get the momentum behind that and build some efficiencies as well?
• 4:11
  Davina: I I particularly wanna talk with you about this, business development piece because you and I were talking before we started recording about how, a lot of women law firm owners who are starting their practices who maybe don't have the advantage, the backing of a big law firm behind them, may struggle to get the right kind of clients. Those clients who will pay them handsomely for their services. Oftentimes, when we start out as solos, we start growing our business. We're just taking kind of anything who what comes in the door that practicing door threshold law, whatever comes across the threshold, that's what we take. And there's gotta be a a point where we transition out of that mindset and into the mindset of of valuing our services in a in a way that separates us as individuals from the services we're providing.
• 5:10
  Is that something that you have encountered and you've helped people with?
• 5:14
  Deb: Absolutely. And I think we were talking briefly about this, that first owning your value and all that you bring to the table helps align and feel more comfortable with what you are charging for the services. So, you know, many lawyers are charging by the hour. And those hourly rates, when you think about it, often feel misaligned with what you think somebody, you know, well, they might be able to pay me less. And you start to devalue yourself before you even offer a rate.
• 5:48
  Right? It's like you're negotiating with yourself rather than anybody else. So I often like to ask people to, like, really start to realize all that you bring to the table, every little bit of experience and expertise, but then also like the way you approach work. Right? And when you add it all up, it changes that value proposition and you can start to feel confident in yourself again so you're not negotiating against yourself before you ever start.
• 6:19
  I think that's a piece of it. What about you? I have conversation recently with a woman law firm owner.
• 6:27
  Davina: I've had this conversation with many law firm women law firm owners over the years who has one of her website is just loaded with all of her accolades and her education, and she's licensed in multiple states. And she has all of these, you know, awards and nominations and things like that. And as we were talking, she's really undercharging, and so she's not able to pay her team as much as they desire. And so she's having trouble keeping team members. And her and I'm talking to her, and her answer to me is I'm now gonna get bird certified.
• 7:00
  And I said, you do not need another certification, another degree, another anything. You're so qualified. You're overqualified. And I and I said, there's there's a mediocre white guy graduated from law school, you know, midrange, who didn't go get board certified, didn't go get any other accolades, and he's out there charging more than you are. That it's really a confidence.
• 7:25
  It's an internal problem that we're facing in going forward and say, I am enough. I'm enough with exactly what I have. I don't need another certification. I don't need another degree to value the services of my law firm in a way that's competitive.
• 7:43
  Deb: I think that, like, there's this, you know, space where the practice of law is a practice. Right? And because of that, we're always having to learn something new. We're having to be the idea is that if the answer was easy, somebody wouldn't have to call you. Right?
• 8:00
  It's always just like a simple thing. Because of that, right? The longer you do it, certain problems are easier for you to solve. So while the hourly rate might be bigger, it's gonna take you less time because you have the expertise of how to approach the problem, how to approach the negotiation, how to prepare for trial, depending on what your practice is. And recognizing all that goes into what you bring to the table and not comparing it to how anybody else would describe their practice or describe their worth.
• 8:37
  And really, it's not about, for me, thinking about how somebody else values themselves, but like internally knowing and holding space for yourself to show up and allow others to, you know, connect with that. Because quite frankly, if you walk in the door and you're like, well, I don't know that I'm worth it. That's a really hard business development conversation. Because nobody's really excited about working with somebody else who, like, describes themselves, like, less that. Right?
• 9:07
  They wanna know they feel confident about taking on their work and their projects.
• 9:12
  Davina: Right. What kind of factors sort of go into elevating your clients? So many clients, when they're starting out, they're taking sort of, you know, whatever. And I don't think enough Oftentimes, they give enough thought into what does it take for me to elevate the level of my clients to people who can't afford to pay me easily, to people who, won't question that hiring a lawyer comes with a bill attached to it. What kind of factors sort of go into positioning yourself in a way or shifting your mindset to expand who your clients who your ideal clients are?
• 9:54
  Deb: Well, I think that first of all is saying it's you know, if somebody comes to you and says, I wanna build my book. Okay? Okay. And start talking to you about the clients. What do you what kinds of projects are you looking to attract?
• 10:06
  You know, one a flag for me is when somebody says, I'll take anybody, anybody in this, you know, in this kind of area. That means and I'll say, even if they're, like, mean. Right? They're they're mean. And, like, it's just they're like, I'm not suggesting that there's mean clients out there, but let's just say that they are.
• 10:23
  Are that you telling that's okay? Like and so getting discerning about what kind of client best works with you and your approach, knowing your values and knowing your boundaries. Right? And not when I talk about boundaries, I think I talk about them a little bit differently than other people that it's not about saying everything is, you know, violating my boundaries. Right?
• 10:47
  But like, what is like the one thing for you or the two or three things that, mm-mm, this is where I draw the line for me. So for me, it's kindness. If somebody's not kind, we're probably not gonna work together. Right? I used to think it was other things that rose above that until one day I had this moment of, you know what?
• 11:07
  Nope. The the the entry line is kindness. I'll work all night for you. I will work. And I do.
• 11:13
  I work with on the weekends with my clients. I will work through a project as long as we're having a good time and everybody's being kind to each other. Right? And that for me and I think you have to start there and then recognize that you can get more discerning and more descriptive of the work that you do and the clients that you best serve. Right.
• 11:38
  Right.
• 11:39
  Davina: Tell me a little bit about your so you wrote a book on this topic, and I'm gonna say the title here again for people. After Hello How to Build a Book of Business One Conversation at a Time. Give us an idea of what that book is about.
• 11:53
  Deb: Really, so After Hello is about getting into the conversations. We start with what are the mindset shifts. Right? And how can you courageously show up for business development and client relationship conversations? From there, we talk through the strategies of setting up your network and your launching into conversations that convert and offer up opportunities.
• 12:21
  I have another book coming out actually in the fall in September that is all about how do you take those conversations that we launched in After Hello and through everyday interactions, turn them into trusted client relationships. Because the idea here is not just to get one project. Right? But having being that trusted advisor for a client and really the trusted thinking partner to like knowing that they're gonna call you because they value your advice. They want you at the table with them.
• 12:53
  You're a part of the team.
• 12:57
  Davina: I think so many so I'm hearing transactional versus relational. Right? So I think so many law firm lawyers, law firm owners, people building a book of business get kind of in the transactional. I need to get new clients. I need to get new clients.
• 13:13
  I need to get new clients. And there may be some practice areas where that is the case. Right?
• 13:17
  Deb: Absolutely.
• 13:20
  Davina: But there are a lot of most every practice area can benefit from developing relationships with other people. So that's really kind of what you're talking about, isn't it? Absolutely.
• 13:30
  Deb: Absolutely. Right? If you're only going after the transaction, it's a really long, road of always having to generate one new transaction. Whereas if you're building a relationship, you're progressing conversations forward, you're asking better questions. You are creating a loop of a conversation that deepens the trust and provides more opportunities, Right?
• 14:00
  Much more naturally than spot the opportunity race after it. Spot the opportunity race after it.
• 14:07
  Davina: So give me some kind of concrete example. Let's use something like Yeah. Give me
• 14:12
  Deb: an example. A family law practice. Right?
• 14:15
  Davina: So we have an attorney who has a family law practice, and they think to themselves, well, the majority of my clients are one and done. They're divorced and done. So what how do I is it worth it to build relationships with them? How do I build relationships with them? And how is that going to benefit me if they're just one and done?
• 14:37
  They're getting divorced. They're moving on.
• 14:38
  Deb: Yep. Right? I actually think there is a perfect example where you're right. Your client, you have to think differently about who your client is. Right?
• 14:47
  So your client may not need you again, but who are the referral partners who are engaged with ideal clients of yours all the time that you want that your name to be one of the names that they are suggesting somebody call you. So you're the client that I would suggest that you're nurturing there and the relationship are your referral partners who are working in different spaces, you know, and it may be a financial advisor. It may be, it may be a trusted estate's attorney. It might be a criminal attorney. It might be like, there's other people who are have different practices or different types of professional services, accountants who are constantly looking for great people.
• 15:34
  Right before this call with you, I had a call with somebody who I need to refer out to two or three options of advisors to help them. Right? And I immediately like thought about my network and I shot off an email to somebody that I did the Brene Brown training, the daring way training years ago with and said, are you still working in this space? I've got a referral for you. Right?
• 15:58
  Immediately refer sent me a note back and was like, we must talk and catch up, but absolutely, this is what I'm doing.
• 16:04
  Davina: Is this something that you have continued to nurture nurture that relationship this whole time that sort of led you to think or that they have done to nurture that relationship to led you to think of them?
• 16:16
  Deb: So I think that like there's different stages of nurturing. Right? This is a person that we have over the years had collaborations. We've brought each other into projects. Do we talk all the time?
• 16:28
  No. But have we had stages in our lives or in over the years of practice that we have? Absolutely. Such that it's maybe been a year or so since we've talked, but I could pick up tomorrow and, you know, talk to him no problem. Because I have developed that trust over a longer period of time.
• 16:51
  And we'll go like, now that we've reconnected, we'll probably talk a lot more. And then it's okay if it has a little bit of a lag. Right? When you've when you've put that investment of into the relationship, into the trust building, then it's not as much of like, am I on schedule? I have to contact you every three and a half weeks.
• 17:11
  It's less like, regimented, and you don't have to worry so much.
• 17:16
  Davina: Yes. I wanna talk in more detail about that because I think there's a that's where a lot of people, especially people who are already busy, who may be introverted. They think to themselves, oh, off long. I don't want any more relationships. I don't have time for more relationships.
• 17:32
  I've gotta take care of my kids. I'm trying to run this law firm, and now I've gotta nurture all these relationships. So lay it out for us a little more clearly so we sort of understand what that means when we're talking about nurturing relationships. Well, for starters,
• 17:48
  Deb: you know, you and I both work with busy professionals. The goal here is not to put anything additional on your plate. In fact, let's start taking stuff off, right, so that you can have more free time, enjoy your time with your family, and understand how to have these conversations. I think people hear networking or nurture relationship and immediately think I need to run to a coffee, a lunch, a cocktail party. I need, you know, all of the birthday cards.
• 18:14
  Yeah. Everybody on my list. This feels so hard. And I'm like, woah. Like, I didn't even offer any of that.
• 18:21
  Let's just back up. Right? It might be as simple as knowing that somebody just went to Disney. Right? And seeing a fun article about it and sending a note and being like, did you go on this ride?
• 18:33
  I've got it now. Right? As simple as that seems, you paid attention. And we live in a world where people are moving so fast that the quality of attention that we pay to each other, has kind of eroded a little bit. So those that do are you stand out without having to have a heavy lift of, again, this isn't plan a wine dinner.
• 18:56
  It is just remembering each other and caring about the other individuals. I think that's for starters. The other thing is this does not mean you need a humongous network. You need a strong network. Right?
• 19:08
  Having a smaller core group, and there's different buckets, right? So you have those that are referring you business. You have really great depends also, as you said, on your type of client, right? Your practice, what that client relationship looks like, but understanding kind of who it is that is in your current nurture list and then not forgetting. So I often, you know, once a month I'll say to clients, go back and find a former boss, a former colleague, somebody who haven't worked with in a few years, just say hello.
• 19:43
  Say hello and just send them an email and say, hey, I'd love to catch up. What's new? Right? You don't do this all the time. But if you just remember to schedule it and think about it, even once a month with a quick note, you keep some of those old relationships fresh enough that those that are ready to expand or come back and be a more active role for you, it's it's an easier lift.
• 20:07
  Does that make sense? Yeah. Absolutely. I think
• 20:10
  Davina: one of the things I think is interesting is the social media aspect of it. I think social media a lot of people think of social media as, you know, oh my gosh. Do I have to create all this content or whatever? And I really think the advantage of social media is it makes it easier to stay in touch with people that you would long ago let go in your life. And there are people that you continue in all your different facets, all your different stages of career.
• 20:37
  You kind of collect people. And there are some who fade away, but there are some who sort of stay there. And I think social media makes it super easy for us to, nurture those relationships because it doesn't take much. It can be a comment on a post.
• 20:52
  Deb: It can be and then
• 20:53
  Davina: the next time you talk to them, hey. I saw you went just got back from Iceland. How was it? Right? So I think that bridges the gap there.
• 21:00
  And I know you in particular, like LinkedIn. It's one of the things that you help people with. So give me your thoughts on that.
• 21:06
  Deb: Well, I think you're exactly right. Like, so if you look at the my network on LinkedIn, right, and just go to school, you know people. You know a lot of people. Some and now some of those people you know better than others. Right?
• 21:20
  But it's a really great way to just remind yourself of all the people you've connected with over the years. Right? So I think that's just, if nothing else, that's a great reminder that your network is bigger than you think it is. Right? The second thing is now I will tell you, I don't think like if you like a post, I don't care.
• 21:39
  Instagram, Facebook, LinkedIn, whatever. That is not networking. Right? So let's that is not like thumbs up is not building a close tight relationship with somebody.
• 21:52
  Davina: But and then I've had Although I do think a lot of people think that they're really good friends of mine because they're always liking my post. So I do think there is something there, like, when when you're constantly you you you get to, see people who are on the same page as you, and you feel a kinship to them.
• 22:10
  Deb: And I do think that that is fair. But I want this is an example I give all the time. And I just wanna ask you, can you imagine walking into a cocktail party? I think of LinkedIn as a really awesome cocktail party. And there's different people having discussions all over.
• 22:24
  Would you ever put one of those, like, big, like, magic thumbs on your hand, like, at, like, a football game and walk around and think that that is like a conversation piece? Right. Right. Right. You're not engaging in the conversation by just walking past people, you know, with a ginormous thumbs up.
• 22:40
  So although I do think that, yes, some people think that I would just offer even a comment. Like and I've had clients build business and build relationships by in the comments. Right? So years ago, another attorney and I were both on a few posts just coincidentally together. And I reached out and said, you know what?
• 23:01
  I've noticed that we're in the same conversations. I'd love to learn more about what you do. We jumped on a call. She said, I have this group of women attorneys I would love to introduce you to someday. Okay?
• 23:13
  Well, lo and behold, she did it that night. And it launched me into a group of attorneys that we ended up writing the book, Networked during the pandemic, which was about, it was an anthology of 20 women attorneys and how we built a book of business and our community on LinkedIn. Right? If I hadn't just reached out and said, you know what? We're having these really great discussions.
• 23:37
  I'd actually like to know about you. Right? I took it one tiny step, you know, further, and it opened up a tremendous world for me. So I think that you just don't know what's gonna happen when you allow yourself to engage. I also think that we have this idea that like our posts have to be perfect.
• 23:57
  Our comments have to be amazing. We have to be incredibly insightful for it to be worth it. And, yeah, that's I I think that's a really heavy ask that need to happen. I've seen a lot
• 24:11
  Davina: of that, you know, on Facebook and Facebook groups over the years where people are interacting in the group and then they get to know each other in real life. And, you know, they're all going to some you know, somebody's going to some event, and people are meeting up. And that's what that Facebook group has really been something that I've seen to help people develop business through the years. A lot of women law firm owners tell me that they don't love LinkedIn. They don't like to be on LinkedIn.
• 24:36
  They find it's kinda boring. The groups aren't as fun. What are some of the things that we can do? And to me, I look at it and I go, there's a, you know, there's a massive untapped potential there because as and especially if you're looking to grow your law firm, you wanna hire people. That's where people are hanging out if they're looking for jobs.
• 24:53
  Right? What do you see about LinkedIn that makes it your sort of preferred platform for networking? It's easy. First of
• 25:05
  Deb: all, it is the place where professionals are hanging out and building, you know, and building their business. Now that being said, I'm gonna give a caveat. Depending on what kind of practice you have, there is a really good discussion to have about other platforms. So family law attorneys, trust and estates, depending on the type of practice, Facebook, Instagram may be a place where your clients are hanging out. But by and large, LinkedIn is the professional social media platform.
• 25:36
  Okay? With that, I think that, you know, I when I have a retreat and people, you know, show up from all over and they're like, I'm I'm meeting all these people I only know from LinkedIn, and they're so excited to connect and be together in the room. There's a lot of fun and incredible conversations and great community. I think where people think that the platform, to your your words, are boring or not as engaging, unless you are active on the platform, you're getting your home feed gets kind of like a lot of advertisements or a lot of, you know, sponsored, you know, posts and that sort of thing. And it's not as personalized to you.
• 26:19
  So just like anything in life, what you put into it is kinda what you're getting out. So starting to recognize posts that you wanna engage on, getting a little bit more active, it will quickly change that view and allow you to start meeting and connecting with other people that you find more interesting.
• 26:39
  Davina: Right. If if you were to give us like one I'm sure you have many strategies for LinkedIn. But give us one strategy that you'd say, if you do nothing else on LinkedIn, do this. What would it be?
• 26:52
  Deb: So I'm gonna tell you I'm gonna give you two things. One. Okay. I knew you said one thing, but I'm gonna give you Well, one thing I'm say- I need you want. Okay.
• 27:01
  Well, okay. So I think where a lot of people go first is that they want a perfect profile. And I'm gonna offer up just my first tip is as long as your profile tells us what you do, like just baseline, set it aside for a moment. Right? And my first tip would be come engage on the platform first, and we can always update the profile as you go.
• 27:24
  Right? So while you want there's this idea that it has to be right. If someone's gonna come look you up, just like a perfect website, it can be changed. Right? So we'll step that aside.
• 27:36
  I I would say if you're gonna do nothing else, I think posting short a short post that reintroduces yourself to the platform. So putting yourself out there and saying, you know what? I've decided to get involved on LinkedIn, and I would love to tell you more about me and my practice. And allow both your expertise, your personality, your approach, you know, to shine through in a very simple short post often is really effective and people be excited to see what you're up to. And it jumpstarts a lot of conversations.
• 28:15
  And from there, it's easier to come post about hot trends in your industry, you know, news updates, regulatory changes, as well as knowing how to build out posts that are engaging enough that people want to join the conversation.
• 28:34
  Davina: I think that may be the the piece that, a lot of people struggle with from, with social media period is this idea that I have to it's you know, people wanna know about me personally. And me personally is not what I'm putting out there in a professional setting. I'm putting out my business, my services. And I certainly know, like, in the platforms like Instagram and Facebook, there's a lot of social media managers that say, you need to put your own personal story out there. And there's a pushback from attorneys saying, I don't wanna put my own personal except I'm not an online influencer.
• 29:07
  It's a different approach. Right?
• 29:09
  Deb: Totally. You want your expertise and your approach to shine through. For some people, that has a personal bent. For other people, like, look, if you I mean, forgive this. But, like, as attorneys, we love to, like, kinda geek out and nerd out on, like, whatever our area of expertise is.
• 29:29
  Like, weirdly, I can geek out on conversations and writing an email for hours. Okay? Because that's like my field now. But other people, it may be, you know, a regulatory change. It may be a trial strategy, whatever it is.
• 29:45
  When you are enthusiastic about it, it radiates from you. And that is what attracts people to wanna work with you when you're excited about your work and we find the angle that works for you. It's not meant to sound like a social media manager. It's meant to sound like you so that when somebody picks up the phone and talks to you, it's exactly how you're showing up there.
• 30:09
  Davina: And, also, it's interesting of me say that because one of the challenges I think a lot of business owners have is there's already so much demand on their time for growing the business. And so they're looking to hire people to help them with these things, with these social media platforms. Are there ways that attorneys can work with social media managers and still create an authentic voice on a social platform?
• 30:37
  Deb: Yes. I think it is something that takes a bigger conversation other than get my expertise out there and make me look awesome. Right? So I think that it takes a little bit more testing and tweaking when somebody else is stepping in to support that work and that dialogue. Right?
• 30:59
  And putting your expertise out as long as you also then come back and engage with comments. Right? So if you put out an incredible post and everybody's commenting and it's silence from you, it feels a little off. But if you are then coming in and authentically jumping into those conversations for five or ten minutes, right? It puts you back into the conversation.
• 31:26
  I think it also is knowing that you're not looking to hire somebody to have a different voice than what you are, but to make sure that your expertise and approach shines. And really great marketing social media business development managers can do that. Right. And I also think they they might even be more help because oftentimes it's harder for us to talk about ourselves in that light than it is for somebody else to present us in a
• 31:56
  Davina: certain light. Right? So you might have if you're having somebody who's a good so for instance, PR firm, I receive I receive, PR all the time for people who wanna be guests on the podcast. Those PR companies are helping people present themselves in a way that's eye catching. And so those professionals are hell and those people, if they were writing their own bios, they probably would not write them to the same degree that a PR firm would write them.
• 32:25
  Deb: And those that are really great are doing it with, it's a collaborative process. It's not, we have your bio, we took it, we ran with it. Right? This is a starting point. Is this what, you know, is this what sounds great to you?
• 32:42
  Or taking somebody else's bio, like, that you give them and saying, you know what? We've got a couple tweaks. What do you think about this?
• 32:50
  Davina: Yeah.
• 32:50
  Deb: And even with your team conversations, building trust, relationships, it's the same dynamic as when you're building a book of business and client relationships.
• 33:00
  Davina: Well, and I think the thing to remember on any social platform, including LinkedIn, is that people do business with people. So having a lot of company, this the company's doing this. The company's doing that. The company's doing this. It's like a snooze fest.
• 33:12
  So it getting the personal, voice in there from your lawyers, from people who are, you know, on your team makes a huge difference. I I wanna shift gears a little bit, though, away from LinkedIn. And I wanna talk about you talk about having helping people have confident conversations. Talk to me a little bit about, first of all, why you think confidence is so important and and what that means to you and why it's important. So I love talking
• 33:48
  Deb: about engaging in curious, confident conversations. Right? So one where you are interested in somebody else and being really present for that conversation and then being confident enough that you belong in the conversation. So when you feel that, a sense of, it's okay to be here and I'm comfortable with whatever happens, because conversations are dynamic. You don't know what somebody else is gonna say.
• 34:17
  So you gotta be confident enough that this is not gonna be scripted. Right? There is no like, hello. Nice to meet you. Nice to meet you.
• 34:25
  Like, that would be downright awkward. Right? Right. So, and I think some people would like it that way, but this just doesn't happen. You know, it's like, I always say, never need an elevator pitch.
• 34:36
  Just throw it away. Because if you ever walked into a room and everybody said, shh, it's time for the elevator pitches. No. Like, if you're gonna walk into a conversation and somebody's talking about pizza and all of a sudden you're dope like, they don't even know your name and you're in a conversation about pizza. And then that, like, segues into, oh, by the way, what do you do?
• 34:58
  And you have to be able to answer in a way that matches the tone, the tenor of that. And that's where confidence and understanding your practice, understanding your value, and understanding how to explain it in a variety of circumstances really comes into play. Yeah. So I think that's where confidence really is the the launcher into great conversations. It's not being egocentric and being like, I'm so amazing.
• 35:28
  Everybody wants to listen to me. It's holding your own and being ready and willing to engage.
• 35:35
  Davina: Yeah. I like the curious part of it as well because I think that's really the key to people who are good networkers, you know, or people who build good relationships is that they're curious about other people. They want to know what they think, what ideas they have, and that if you can get out of your body, your own mind for an experience for a moment and ask somebody else and truly listen to what their answer is. I mean, it it it can it makes a conversation enjoyable, and it makes people like you because they you know, you're interested in them.
• 36:10
  Deb: Well and, honestly, it's it's a great business development tool. So if you are willing to treat clients as almost like you are invested in understanding their expertise, understanding their perspective. So you're not just saying, I know the right way forward, and this is how I'm gonna offer my services, or this is what I think is the best, you know, approach to build our practice. But get clients involved in it with you. It's a major trust builder.
• 36:42
  It like, make sure that you're on mark and you're not wasting your time. Right? So if you think that you need to be putting out a a major guide for something and you spend a lot of money and a lot of time and hire a marketing company and do all the things to build it out to then have nobody want it. Right? I see this all the time with people come to me and say, I had this idea.
• 37:05
  We invested all this. It's not working. And my first question is, did we talk to anybody about what they were wanting from this result before you started? And in fact, there's ways to tweak it quickly to change that dynamic, but it makes it so it's a conversation with clients, and they're immediately invested in it because you're hearing about them and their perspective and what they want.
• 37:30
  Davina: It it's interesting you say that. I get so I get a lot of I get a ton of emails because I have them from all the I'm sure the same. When you're an attorney, you get attorney, you get coaching world, you get online business world, you just get a ton of emails. I often get a lot of offers of people who want to help me solve a problem that they don't even know that I have. Right?
• 37:49
  That they're gonna help me. And I think to myself, it just happened this morning. I got something, and they're cold emails. And it was somebody who was, well, you know, I I wanna help you with this or that. I'm like, you don't even know me to know that I have this problem.
• 38:01
  And I think that's that piece is very interesting about, you know, what you're saying. I also wanna go back to the elevator pitch. I find it so former BNI member here, that's the place you use your elevator pitch. Right? Everybody has to do their elevator pitch Well, everybody does.
• 38:16
  When they
• 38:16
  Deb: come in. But but one of the things that I
• 38:19
  Davina: think can happen is when we have an elevator pitch and we repeat over and over and over again, we get people tune out. Right? So we have to learn to talk about our services in different in different ways. And, like you said, depending on the circumstance and the situation that we're in, we can't just go in with this thing that we've memorized. And when somebody asks you what you do, we spit out this thing that we've memorized instead of really connecting with who it is I'm talking.
• 38:47
  Because if you're talking with somebody who is a potential referral source, what you do may sound different than if you were talking with somebody who's a prospective client. Right?
• 38:58
  Deb: And a prospective client who is new to the industry and just, you know, somehow landed in this position is very different than somebody who's been in it for twenty years. Right. Right? And how you share what you do and the language that you use, you know, the closer you can be to their language, the more you're gonna resonate and connect faster.
• 39:20
  Davina: Yeah. I often say this. So do you using our family law attorney example. If you're talking to lawyers, I'm a family law attorney makes perfect sense. If you're talking to laypeople, I'm a divorce attorney.
• 39:30
  It it's a totally different because laypeople think family a lot of them think family law attorneys are estate planning lawyers or, you know, they handle those kinds of things.
• 39:40
  Deb: You don't think divorce lawyer. And so choosing your language and how you speak is is so critical. And I honestly thought of that exact example earlier when you asked me a question. Was using another example in my head. And I was like, oh, for some people that could be the same thing, but it's really not.
• 39:57
  But it's exactly, you're exactly on point. Right? I think that, again, knowing your audience, knowing who you're wanting to communicate with. I often ask people, what's your next sentence? Practice that.
• 40:11
  Like, we do a lot of like practicing and talking about it and doing all sorts of weird networking things, especially when I'm at a retreat or a workshop, because that's the real stuff. That's how the real conversations start. And if I say, okay, now I want you Like, I want you to ask the question. We're gonna not Who cares how somebody introduces themselves? What's your question?
• 40:33
  When's the last time you thought about that? Right? Or how do you wanna end the conversation? Because we think so much about getting that intro out there. Then once we do that, then we're like, now what?
• 40:45
  And that it. That's all I prepare. I name that in terms
• 40:49
  Davina: of speaking. That's always the way it is when you're going if you're starting out public speaking. You're so worried about, like, how you're gonna start, and then you forget, oh my gosh. I need a way to wrap this up. And so you go on and on and on because you have no good way to wrap something up.
• 41:03
  Deb: Oh, yeah. You see you see it in networking too. Right? You see this rambling and you're like, okay. I'm just gonna keep going till, like, I find a natural stopping point.
• 41:12
  And at some point, you're like, I got nothing. And it just keeps going. And so knowing where you want kind of the trajectory of the conversation. Right? Where do you wanna lead it to?
• 41:23
  And then how do you know how to transition out of it? I have an exercise in After Hello that's literally about how to how to move on to mingle. Because that's a point where everybody says to me, what do you do? And so we practice like the shift and pivot and move on.
• 41:40
  Davina: So I want to before we run out of time, I want to ask you, I think this is where a lot of people struggle with business development is that, you may be a very engaging conversationalist. You may be a relationship oriented person. Maybe you've taken the CliftonStrengths, and you're high on the relationship and not so high on the influencing. How do you learn? What's the best way to learn?
• 42:10
  There's a difference between somebody who's relationship oriented and somebody who is a closer or somebody who moves moves the relationship onto a business conversation as opposed to pizza. Right? What do you think the key factors are in that? Like, how do we learn that little
• 42:29
  Deb: That piece? Formula. Right? Well, so I think that there's a for me, I have a conversation progression that I work with clients on, right? So you start with hello, and then you're gonna start to build rapport and trust in small talk.
• 42:42
  Small talk is not meaningless. It is actually very important. From there though, we need to learn how to pivot and learn. Having a really great strategic question that you want to it's almost like that one little tool that you've got that, like, if nothing else happens, you can go there. Right?
• 43:03
  And knowing how to pivot and learn and ask that next question that progresses the conversation forward. From there, we can start to hear trends and understand the client at a deeper level and be able to share resources, be able to be actively engaged in a way that we're relevant, we're, like and we're reflecting what we've learned from those conversations. From there, we can nurture and grow the relationship. We can share what we're learning from conversations wider, like on LinkedIn, right? Wider in a talk or whatever.
• 43:39
  And then we make the big key at the end of the day is following up and following through. So you have these conversations and somebody and not following up with, it was great to meet you. Right? Hope to see you next year. No.
• 43:51
  Like I wanna continue the conversation about blank. Let's, you know, let's set up a time in the next couple weeks. I'd love to learn more. And taking taking that pivot and then translating it to the next conversation. That's appropriate.
• 44:08
  Yeah. Yeah. I think that's the
• 44:10
  Davina: key is learning how to ask. Learning how to ask for the next level in the relationship, learning how to ask for more information, learning how to ask for the business.
• 44:22
  Deb: Yes.
• 44:25
  Davina: So and I will just back when I was before I became an attorney, my professional career was in marketing, and I worked for an agency. And the owner of the agency sort of put me in this role of getting business or, you know, dealing with clients or whatever. And I was that relationship oriented person. I'm very relationship oriented naturally, but I had no training on how to convert the conversations into clients. It was something I had to learn and develop that skill.
• 44:56
  So, just to encourage people, if you're that person, there is a way to develop that skill and learn those sort of next things.
• 45:04
  Deb: You know what? I I was just sharing a story earlier today that years ago, somebody called me and they said, we just had somebody come and speak to us. And they said, you're either born a rainmaker or you're not. And this person was despondent because they were like, I was not born a rainmaker. Right?
• 45:19
  And I said, that is just not true. Right?
• 45:22
  Davina: Yeah. I totally disagree with that.
• 45:24
  Deb: Every right? I was like, no. No. No. I was like, there's a way for everybody to build business.
• 45:29
  It's really about knowing you, your approach, your clients, really understanding the work that you do and your value and allowing that to shine through in a way that is energizing for you. Right? You do not Trying to be somebody else or, you know, take somebody else's approach is often the recipe for it not working. Right? We need to know your approach and what's gonna Like where we can get your first entry into it.
• 46:00
  And then from there navigate.
• 46:02
  Davina: Yeah. Yeah. And then being able to ask for the business and being able to say, let's talk next steps. You know? I think, next steps is often a wonderful approach that people can say, well, where do we go next?
• 46:14
  You know, where do we go from here? And I have some thoughts on that. Right? So I think there there there's definitely some technique there. I think a lot of people think when it comes to rainmaking, that it's all of mindset.
• 46:25
  I think there are a lot of people out there who tell them it's mindset. It's mindset. But it's not it's not just mindset. It's mindset and technique. And these are learned skills that people can learn.
• 46:33
  Deb: They're they're strategy. Right. There's a way to have an a first call with a potential client. There's a way to guide that call no matter what your practice is that allows you to identify if they're an ideal client and make sure that they understand this is how you work and if it's a good fit, how to engage with you. Right?
• 46:55
  There's a trajectory of that conversation. There is a way at a networking event to take that conversation to the next level. There's a way to, you know, make sure that people that regard but you have this idea that people know that you wanna work with them. Often, they're waiting for you to express that you'd like to work with them. Yeah.
• 47:16
  Davina: I was I was wondering how what your thoughts are on how to get referrals without asking for them. Because you were using the example of your colleague that you reached out to and said, hey. I've got somebody to refer you, and you haven't spoken to him in, you know, a year or so. Is there a was there something that he said or did that planted a seat that made you know that he was open to your referrals and would appreciate your referrals?
• 47:43
  Deb: So I like the phrase, like, who else should I be talking to? Like, is there anybody else that you think would be helpful for me to be in conversation with? Right? I think that good people, you know, we've talked about it over the years. This is what my practice is.
• 48:00
  This is what I'm doing. I am very aware of his practice. I'm interested in his practice and him not just as, hey, send me some business. Right? It's more, you know, I wanna know what you do because it's always helpful to know people that you can say, I'm not a great fit, but somebody else is.
• 48:20
  Give them a call. Right. Right. Alright. Deb, it's been
• 48:25
  Davina: great having this conversation with you. Tell us how we can find you on the worldwide web, your book, get on the
• 48:32
  Deb: wait list for your next book. My book is on Amazon. After Hello's on Amazon. Tell Me More will be out, early fall, at least fingers crossed. That's that's the plan.
• 48:45
  And my website's stepfetter.com. I am on LinkedIn. Come find me, come chat, introduce yourselves. We'll have a conversation. Wonderful.
• 48:54
  Thanks so much for being here. Really enjoyed our conversation. Thanks, Devina. Thank you.
• 49:00
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