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Weak Fathers & Devouring Mothers In the Modern Family · The Family Teams Podcast

• 0:03
  Hi, welcome to the Family Teams podcast. Our goal here is to help your family become a multi-generational team on mission by providing you with biblically rooted concepts, tools, and rhythms. Your hosts are Jeremy Pryor and Jefferson Bethke, and we can't wait to chat about all things family.
• 0:22
  Hey guys, welcome back to the Family Teens Podcast. We're doing another Fatherhood Roundup, and this is whatever the heck Jeremy's thinking about fatherhood this week and the videos that he is consuming and reacting to. And I am joined with a couple of partners in crime, Tim Schmoyer and Grant Stein from the great state of Texas. Tim's here in Kentucky with me. How are you guys doing today? Doing all right. I'm curious to hear what was in Jeremy's noggin this week. Yeah, yeah, doing good. Thanks for having us on.
• 0:48
  Yeah. Thank you guys so much for doing this with me. All right. So, yeah, so I've got kind of, and by the way, guys, I have a cold. I'll probably cough my way through this one, but we're gonna get through this. I am. Yeah. I, so I like to try to just do three, three different reaction pieces of content that, yeah, I'm thinking through. And so I'm going to start with one is conversation that Jordan Peterson had with Michael Schellenberger. Michael's a really interesting thought leader. Um,
• 1:10
  Man, yeah, he's a Christian who's just been taking a big step back. And I've found over the last couple of years, his idea is increasingly interesting. He kind of came on the scene with his book, San Fran Sicko, I think was the name of the book, where he was diagnosing what the heck was happening in that city.
• 1:29
  and did an incredible deep dive and just a really helpful articulation of what policies were impacting a city, which is a topic, again, that I'm very interested in. So he joined Peterson on the podcast, and they got into this conversation that I find fascinating about the devouring mother. And so our purpose in these conversations isn't primarily to get political. We really want to understand what...
• 1:56
  what do these ideas that are in the culture, how do they impact our vision of family? And particularly, what I want to really understand in our conversation is how this impacts practically how we lead our families as fathers. But man, there's a lot happening out there that I think is implicating that and that is helping me at least think through that conversation. So I'm going to share my screen. We're going to dive into this first video clip here and then get you guys' reaction to this. So
• 2:25
  since we're going down the rabbit hole, that's even worse. Yeah, let's go. I would say, well, look, there's a lot of things going on underneath this, and one of them is the devouring mother. Okay, so what's a devouring mother? Okay, let's define that technically. Now, Freud intuited that the Oedipal situation was at the root of much psychopathology. Now, he over-sexualized that. That was a mistake.
• 2:46
  Just to make sure you guys understand Peterson's, like he's using kind of this both psychological and mythological language here. So the Oedipal mother is a mother who really wants her children to be as dependent as possible on her as a mother. So there's a certain kind of problem that mothers can have, which is they really want to care for children. But in doing that, sometimes they get so much of their identity out of it.
• 3:11
  that they actually force their children or try to, through their behavior, infantilize their children, keep them as infants. Mistake, but the core insight was brilliant. And here's the insight. Okay, so human infants are born in an incredibly underdeveloped state.
• 3:28
  that there's a couple of reasons for that, but the fundamental reason is that our brains are so big that in order for us to be born through a functional female pelvis, we had to be born in a fetal stage. That's why our heads are compressible. It's a compromise. Now, the cost that we pay for that is the unbelievable vulnerability of human infants.
• 3:49
  Okay, now the cost the mothers pay for that is that the neonate is so dependent that they need 100% care. Okay, so that means that the impetus of agreeableness, that personality trait, in combination with negative emotion,
• 4:05
  That's the two feminine personality traits, high negative emotion and high agreeableness. The purest expression of that is, give the suffering infant what it needs right now, no matter what. Right, okay, and that's perfectly legitimate.
• 4:21
  For six months. For an infant. Well, for six months. So one of the things this is making reference to is he's a huge fan of this thing called the big five personality types. And within the big five, there are two elements of the five elements that women score consistently higher in than men. And those are the two traits he's referring to, agreeableness and the trait that makes them more sensitive to negative emotion.
• 4:47
  And he says that actually makes them way better at caring for infants. You want somebody who to be dialed up in those two areas.
• 4:53
  And so it's a feature, but then it could also become a bug later. Six months, it's the right attitude. Now, okay, so then, and it's a very, very powerful instinct. It's the maternal instinct upon which the human species depends. Okay, the question is what happens when that pathologizes? Okay, so what does it look like when it pathologizes? Well, the first is you treat a one-year-old like a six-month-old, or you treat a five-year-old like a six-month-old.
• 5:19
  You just give in to whatever they want right now. Well, that means that you start to interfere with their development. That's where the devouring mother comes in. Right, okay, and so, and that's very, very bad. That's how you make useless, entitled, narcissistic, privileged, dependent, and terrified children, right? Who also hate their parents.
• 5:40
  Right? So that's a very bad idea. Okay, but here's something even worse than that, which no one will talk about and which no one will contend with.
• 5:49
  Okay, that maternal instinct is hyper-powerful, and it's the defining characteristic of femininity. The question that our culture is facing now is, what happens when women enter into the political arena and that instinct doesn't find its proper place? And the answer is, as far as I can tell, is that childless women infantilize everything.
• 6:13
  Yeah, well, God, Michael, if that's true, we are in serious trouble. Like, you know, because we know the most woke disciplines, for example, in the universities are the ones with the highest percentage of women. Now, don't get me wrong. I'm not blaming women because I think men have abdicated the responsibility on that front as well. And I'm also not unhappy that we've been able to determine how to capitalize on the broad intellectual abilities of women in the broader society.
• 6:41
  in the broader civilizational scheme of things, let's say. That's not my point. My point is that we don't know what sort of political psychopathologies will be specific to females, and we bloody well know now. And part of that's that infantilization of everything. And then there's another associated issue, which is women are also very good, let's say, at spotting predators.
• 7:04
  Okay, if you have an infant and you misidentify a predator, you know, you call something a predator that isn't, whatever, you protect your baby, it's not a problem. It's kind of hard on the misidentified predator.
• 7:17
  Right. And so part of that cluster B proclivity of the psychopathological woman to cry wolf continually and profit thereby is also a manifestation of that maternal instinct. It's right. You oppose me, you must be a predator. And if you're, this is the terrible thing about the devouring mother pathology is if you're a predator, no punishment is too harsh for you.
• 7:42
  So I think it's really important for us to just take on board his description of this problem.
• 7:48
  What I'm really interested in is as they start getting into this next part of the conversation, the solution to this problem. So this is a feature. You know, women have a high sensitivity that allows them to care for dependent infants and children. And so, but there needs to be some counterbalancing of that proclivity in the home in particular. Now, he's getting into the political realm. That's not really our primary concern here, but it's interesting what they're going to get into next.
• 8:15
  Right. No quarter. Right. Why would you give quarters something that wants to eat your child? Right. It's like no quarter. And so that's that's another problem that we have that we have no idea what to do with. So, well, yeah, I was going to just say a couple of thoughts about that. I mean, I think that so, first of all, yeah, I mean, you look at Jazz Jennings mom. That's absolutely how she's. But then you look at her dad.
• 8:39
  And Jazz's dad, here they are, the surgery's botched. I just watched some of the video from it. The surgery's botched and the dad's kind of like, well, yeah, it didn't quite go like we thought it was. You know, what I have heard, when I talk to the parents of the detransitioners and the desisters, the desisters, of course, are the parents that saved their kids before real danger was dead.
• 8:59
  on. What they say is they go, often the dad was finally like, I don't want to do this. The dad had to step in and say no and perform that role that traditionally I'm not saying every case. That's what dads do. So there's a very natural tension in every home between the paternal and the paternal, between a mother and a father that's really important
• 9:21
  And what happens sometimes is a culture will put way too much emphasis on one side of the other. So you could have a culture that basically says the father should dominate, you know, the woman can't say anything and you get, you get a certain pathology of, of sort of male dominance in a society where homes are places where there's not nearly enough nurturing. And, you know, where it's just not, not a great place to, for children. And it's, it's just the, the path, the pathology of the father.
• 9:49
  is sort of taking over the home in a really unhealthy and imbalanced way. And then you have cultures that kind of go the other direction where you have a pathology of, of the mother, where the fathers either are not present or taking such a huge step back that, that the mother's instincts of protection and, you know, caring kind of get dialed up to such a degree where there's no ability to sort of balance that proclivity.
• 10:14
  that it causes a problem in the home. And that's really what they're describing that we're suffering through. And so we'll kind of listen to one more section and then we'll discuss this. Yeah, yeah. They're supposed to be like, no. Yeah. That didn't happen. And then the, but then also just you pull back even further and you go, what is this really about? Look what they're doing. They're blocking puberty. Puberty is a fundamental human right. Growing up is a fundamental human right. They're depriving people of the right to be an adult. That's what the witch in Snow White does.
• 10:44
  That's so interesting. It's a standard form of female pathology, which is, that's how you eliminate competitors, right? Right. Yeah, no kidding. No kidding. It's really bad. Well, it's, you know, you know, the story of Snow White is that she's the most beautiful, which means she's fecund and she's, she's at her peak, but the next generation is coming and she's going to be supplanted. And so instead of accepting that gracefully and making the transition to grandmother,
• 11:14
  which is what she should do. She attempts to prolong her youthful adulthood beyond its acceptable point. And she does that by sacrificing the up and coming next feminine generation. Exactly. Exactly. So she poisons Snow White. Yeah, yeah.
• 11:33
  Okay. So let's stop there. Okay. So I'm really curious where your guys' thoughts are on this, because the final point that they're making there that to me is, man, so critical is that I think fathers have to be aware of this challenge in the home. And we can get into challenges that I think mothers should be aware that fathers struggle with, that they need to counterbalance. But in this video, what we're talking about is because there is such a, I would say, a reaction to the idea of
• 12:03
  in the home, in other words, ruling fathers or fathers with too much power, that there's the counterbalance of that is give the mother unlimited power in the home or make the father obsolete. Maybe we don't need fathers. Maybe mothers can raise children without. And so what are the things that need to be kind of culturally aware of? Okay, if you do that, there's a problem in that there's a desire that women have, that mothers have to care for children
• 12:32
  And there comes a point, especially at adolescence, where the child needs to be pushed to stop depending on the mother. And this is a traditional role of a father in a home. And the father can say to the mother, hey, we need to let them grow up.
• 12:50
  Like we need to let them get into things that you may not be super comfortable with. It might feel dangerous to you. And so that creates a really good environment in a home. Now, if you completely remove this whole dynamic, you have what the mythological story of Snow White was actually designed to warn people about. And I think this is such a fascinating thing that he's pointing out. That's kind of the final thing that they discussed there.
• 13:16
  is that the reason for fairy tales is that they encode into a culture warnings that are so deep and so repeated that the only way for us to really even understand them and deal with them is through symbols. And so Snow White is the description of an incredibly predictable challenge that older women may do subtle things
• 13:42
  that may not even, they may not even be really aware of why, but the whole point of Snow White is to symbolically express why this is happening. Why an older woman would want to prevent a younger woman from going through puberty, which is the whole symbolic description of Snow White, why she's the red apple. And I mean, all of these symbols are really designed to help us understand that there's going to be a real tension and that the
• 14:09
  the witch in the story is her beauty is beginning to fade and, and to, and to embrace that and allow yourself to go into the next stage of, you know, you go from maiden to mother, to matriarch, instead of moving gracefully into the stage of matriarch,
• 14:27
  She tries to destroy the maiden in order to stay as a maiden. And that's a deep, very few women I think would ever admit to that. And that's, again, why I think we have symbolic mythology to try to help us understand that that could actually happen. The Family Plan Calendar is the new way to keep your family team organized. Plan your rhythms, menu, household chores, and notes for the family all in one place. Visit FamilyTeams.com to purchase.
• 14:58
  Like what you hear? Be sure to leave a rating and review for this podcast wherever you use streaming. So yeah, I'm curious what your guys' thoughts are. I know this is kind of a, there's lots of places we could go with this, but maybe Tim will start with you. Anything that's going to start up for you? First of all, I was like, oh, my wife should be here. She might have some good insights into this as a mother. So the best I can do is maybe talk about my experience with her going through some of these things.
• 15:25
  But as a father, I guess the things that stand out to me are, I guess, one, I think there's a lot of value in kind of figuring out this, like a pretty high level, like fatherhood, womanhood stuff in general, like these trends that Dr. Peterson is talking about, like women in general, right?
• 15:42
  As I was listening to him, I was filtering it through, is that my experience with my wife and my family? Is like what there might be trickling into our family or whatever? And I have found that I think there's a pendulum that swings from one extreme to another. And my wife and I are always trying to push it into the middle, but it inevitably pushes past the middle and goes the other way.
• 16:05
  And then we push it back the other way. Right. And there's this, this, I don't know if balance is the right word. I don't think it is, but this appropriate healthy place where we're supposed to be feels elusive. I think it, for us, it's because one, both my wife and I are, are, are growing, hopefully, you know, continually growing and investing into things.
• 16:26
  that help us grow and mature in a lot of these emotional states that we feel that sometimes determine how we react and act in certain situations with our kids and with each other. And then two, our kids are growing up rapidly. You know, just literally today, I was sitting at lunch and I'm just eating, eating. My wife grilled some chicken wings last night. So I'm just eating the leftovers. And I'm looking at my 14-year-old, my 13-year-old, and I literally said a lot of them like, wow.
• 16:52
  when did I get too many adults in my house? You know, like when did this happen? And it feels like it's going so quickly. And so because of this change between my wife and I, the dynamic of our relationship and their kids growing so rapidly, I feel like it's, a whack-a-mole is probably an overused example, but you get what I'm saying. It's like, I never feel like I'm at this place where we got it. Like, okay, you know, my kids are in a healthy spot. We're at a healthy spot. And so I think what it looks like for us
• 17:19
  Right now, and we didn't start here to be clear. This was, you know, my wife and I've been married for 17. This will be 18 years coming up this July. And we have seven kids between ages of six and 14, seven kids in eight years. So we we've got a lot going on. So we've had a lot of swings at bat at some of this stuff, so to speak. But not as much with our older ones who are in these teenage years, which feel like they are, these are developing and moving more, more quickly than our, our younger ones is our young ones are.
• 17:48
  And so there's seasons, I mean, maybe that's the right word. I'm not sure what it is right now. I'm just going to speak off the top of my head, but where my wife's intuition, what's the word that he used? And I think he used it to Jeremy. It was the agreeableness to negative. I'll use the word discernment. That's the word that comes to mind for me. My wife's discernment, like I need to rely on her and be like, yes, you can see what's going on emotionally in our kids better than I can.
• 18:13
  And I rely on her to be, to help me understand what's happening in the dynamic of our family. And then there's other times where she relies on me and my, what's the right word? I'm not, not like even headed. And it's just not as emotional, like reaction to be like, this is what's going on. Yeah. Mm-hmm.
• 18:31
  Yeah. So I think there's, there's a dance going on that my wife and I need to mutual respect and we don't always get it right by any means. But I think, and I don't know if this is really, this is where my thought went through. I don't know if this really kind of going in the direction you want to go with this, but I feel like that's the tension that my wife and I are always in. And we will, I feel like we are never getting it a hundred percent right. And that's where my train of thought is. Yeah. Yeah. A hundred percent. Yes.
• 18:58
  Yeah. And Grant, I want to get your thoughts too, but I would say the, the, you're describing the dynamic tension and what, what I think is happening in a, in the culture more broadly is that the culture can start to value things that put a lot of, a lot more weight on one side of that tension than the other as a culture that we can say.
• 19:18
  You know what the family is basically 90% eternal. So dad, you just need to step back. You're not that useful. Or I think in other cultures, but you know, the family is really 90% paternal. So mothers, you don't really have a voice and your intuitions and your concerns, they aren't really important for a healthy flourishing family. So.
• 19:38
  Both of those reactions are really tough on the family. And this is one of the things that I really like to push back on is that our culture tends to have a lot more of an assumption that male and femaleness is primarily almost a romantic category.
• 19:56
  And that's great to get a family started, but we are radically different. And the difference really is maximally helpful when raising children. And that's why you have to honor and create what you're describing, Tim, this sort of healthy tension and dynamic in your marriage. Yeah.
• 20:16
  you could have a lot more romance potentially. You could probably design a different, if it was all about love and romance, then you might be able to design a partnership that maximized that experience. I don't think that male and femaleness is primarily designed around that. I think that that's a part of it, but I think that it's actual design is the kind of
• 20:39
  tension and what you would need to balance out the challenges of raising children and creating a multi-generational team. I think that's why maleness is male and fatherhood has these proclivities and elements and strengths and weaknesses and why motherhood and women have their set of strengths and weaknesses. And you see it played out well, but sometimes the culture says, you know what, we don't want any more of that.
• 21:09
  And that's kind of what's happening. That's what they're really saying. There's something going on in the culture that's so threatened and so negative towards the role of the father that it can create an infantilized culture, essentially, within homes where the dads are, you know, in the worst case scenario, the Schellenberger is describing.
• 21:28
  saying, I don't, I don't feel like it's really my place to step in when, you know, my wife and child are making decisions about whether or not to block puberty. You know, these are extremely extreme examples, obviously.
• 21:43
  But these weird kind of edge case studies where in traditional environments, you would expect a father to ask deep and tough questions before going there and making sure that they're a big part of that. That is not happening in some families. I think that because of this, and this is what their thesis is, maybe because there's a wider trend.
• 22:08
  of, of allowing this kind of pathology in the culture to invade families in, in these real extreme cases. Timmy, I had something else you want to say? Yeah. One of the things that you said that kind of stands out to me is again, coming back to like my wife and I, we have been learning that the way I was raised and the way she was raised with the maternal and paternal influences and beliefs and structures and everything, we are.
• 22:35
  I don't think of the words unconsciously. I think it's subconsciously brought them together. And that creates a whole different dynamic. Like, well, I only know how the father operates because this is all I saw. And the mother and my family growing up and her family growing up. And that now, the probably pressure that I feel is like my kids are
• 22:57
  All seven of them are now experiencing that and they're going to take that to their marriages and to their kids. And so I think, I think a lot and, and take very seriously, like what my wife and I are trying to dance through here and figure out in terms of the role of the father and mother in the home is what my kids are going to grow up expecting as normal and what they will pass on to their kids.
• 23:20
  So I think it puts a lot of, it really makes me feel like it's important that I find a healthy place in all of this. And that's part of what motivates me to like, yeah, because this will have, this topic and how my wife and I live this out will have a multi-generational impact.
• 23:37
  Yeah. And so, so much of the challenges we see in our culture with some thought leaders, it, it does come down to the fact that maybe they grew up with a pathological father. And so they just saw just such negativity. They're like, I don't, I don't see anything redeeming about masculinity or somebody else who grew up with a pathological mother. And they're like, there's nothing redeemable about motherhood or femininity. And it is tough because you are locked into this one.
• 24:02
  experience of your childhood. And I love what you said, Tim, just like you, you got to bring, you have to, you have to make conscious that what you're bringing into the family and try to, you know, work through those challenges of where we came from and what we're expressing to our children that are forming the foundation of their understanding of the father and the mother. So yeah, Grant, what, what does this clip and this topic start for you?
• 24:27
  Yeah, I had taken a similar approach to Tim of I'm trying to think of it through the lens of the family. And the big word that jumped out at me is when the father abdicates. So I'm going to share more personally here. I think probably six months ago, I was talking to the Lord about we had some chaos happening in our home.
• 24:42
  And I felt like the Lord said that I'd abdicated my headship to my wife. And what that meant very practically was I was swinging the pendulum. I experienced a version of parenting paternal kind of home. And I realized, man, I don't know how to meet these kids emotionally. I don't know how to interact here well.
• 25:04
  I don't have any kind of maternal instinct really going on. And so I just totally deferred, if that makes sense, and abdicated the headship. And that brought absolute chaos into our home. But I think why I'm bringing that up is when your culture, which is the culture we're in, makes that really normal and kind of okay. And it makes it easy for it to make sense. And you see your friends doing it, and you see, I don't know, it's just all around you.
• 25:30
  But when the Lord speaks it to you, and then you start unpacking it, I feel like, I mean, I can go scripturally with this. Where the Lord ultimately took me was about, like, headship is a place where I'm submitted to God, and then my wife is submitted to me under that. And maybe that's controversial. I don't know. But to me, it's very scriptural. But that word submission, he really broke it down for me. We're submitting to a mission.
• 26:00
  by the culture. And so by my wife and I being in unity and being on mission together, we're actually going to be able to submit to one another out of love and submit to Christ. And in that place, we're going to be able to find this place of unity. So, you know, in the scriptures, it talks about how unity commands a blessing. And so when I come with my paternal instincts in right order, because my heart's right with the Lord and my wife comes with hers and we get into unity, it doesn't.
• 26:29
  We're going to be blessed, right? Our multi-generational team is going to be blessed. And I don't just think about that as like, you know, monetary or anything like that. It's like, no, we're going to have the full life in God. Right. And so
• 26:41
  Yeah, what this stirred up for me was, how do we, like, do we have a mission? I'm thinking very practically for the family. This is why it's so important to have a mission as a family and something you're going after. When we can come together in unity under that mission that the Lord's given us, it can really cut through a lot of this noise and then pass down to the kids. So, you know, like for us, very simple mission statement, Steins go for God's design. And that's, it's very simple. It's all over our house. Our kids know it. We say it all day. We say it every day.
• 27:11
  And then we filter everything through it. So, okay, what is God's design for a man and a woman? And we go to Genesis one and we have it on our wall and we, and we talk about it. And so when you have a really strong, simple mission that everybody can come under, it can really kind of cut through a lot of this, I feel like, and it makes sense of a lot of it. And then you can model it of how we're submitting to one another. And, you know, you do that through repentance. You do that through honest conversation. You do that through.
• 27:39
  not, you know, just open, open conversation. So that's, that's what a lot of what has stirred up for me. That's really good, Grant. Yeah. I think, I think that, that, you know, it's interesting because all the way back in the garden, the idea of abdicating to your wife, that was the actual thing God called Adam out, like, because you listened to your wife. And, and so in a culture that says, you know, that, that family should be essentially maternal, then it feels like you should always listen to your wife.
• 28:05
  in that, in that sense of follow whatever her intuitions are about any situation. And I think that like Tim was describing, like, man, there's a lot of situations where you absolutely should listen to your wife. You should follow her intuitions. They're way more high tuned than yours. I mean, when we're talking about a, you know, a six month old, like they were describing, I'm like, I'm submitting to my wife all the time. What do you, how do you think they should be fed? How do you know? I'm not, I am not the expert here.
• 28:31
  But when my son is 16 and my wife says, you know what, I'm not comfortable with him playing that sport or doing that, you know, like that skateboarding, that's just, that's too dangerous. Okay, my wife needs to submit to me. And when I say, no, no, you're not going to hold him back.
• 28:49
  No, you're not going to hold our daughters back. I know why you're afraid. I can understand why the alarm bells are going off, but there's a step that needs to be taken here. And in this situation, you know, I do have headship for this reason, to make sure that the family mission, like you're describing, Grant, is accomplished. And sometimes that does lead us into some risky territory. And that's appropriate, right, at that level. And that's the reason why, you know,
• 29:14
  And that's the arena that for most of the family's life, decisions are being made in. We tend to think because we have a culture that thinks about family as young kids all the time. My family is, I'm a grandfather. I have adult children. I'm leading a lot of things. We have multiple assets and various things and ministries and things that our kids are all integrated with. And so there's a lot of decisions that have to be made that...
• 29:39
  that are balancing risks with opportunities. And I feel very much wired for that. My wife is so much more dialed into the actual hearts and emotions and relationships in the home. And so this balance at this level, where we have multiple generations, a mission, and lots of assignments that we're balancing across all kinds of needs,
• 30:07
  This dynamic to me makes so much sense and why I absolutely need my wife to be fully activated in her role as a mother and all of the gifts and talents she has and why I need to be able to lead our family to make hard decisions and sometimes take risky steps into things that we're being called to do. Go ahead, Tim.
• 30:29
  Yeah. I'm curious, Jeremy, there's a leadership principle that says you're not a leader if no one's following, right? And I think sometimes this conversation can go to, I'll call it maybe an unhealthy place, but that's up for debate. Love to hear your thoughts on it. Where the husband's just like, hey, I hear you, but no.
• 30:47
  And it's just a little bit more of that traditional, like, I hear you, but I don't. We're going to go this direction, suck it up, buttercup. And I found for my family, that's typically a mistake because, again, I'm not a leader if no one's following. So let's say, for example, totally hypothetically that –
• 31:09
  I have a son who's getting more interested in airsoft and in guns and in pellet guns and is more interested in conflict and war and battles and is and loves jujitsu and comes home with sprained elbows and, you know, doctor bills and such.
• 31:28
  And, you know, I've, how much of this is like, wife, he needs this. We're like, this is normal for a guy to like, to pursue this type of thing, especially in teenagehood and it's fine and natural versus like, wife, we're doing this. It is what it is. Like, you just got like, you know, does that question make sense? Like how much are we just like saying this is the way it is versus like,
• 31:52
  working to get our spouses on board and vice versa too. This goes the other way. Not just like a male trying to convince the woman thing, but I have to do this to her and listen, be like, you know what? I hear what you're saying, wife. I don't like it, but I think you're right. Let's go with it together. Yeah. That's the dynamic that's really challenging. And
• 32:08
  Yeah, I think that in those situations, it's actually helpful to level up. Like April and I often have had to level up and talk about, like if you're uncomfortable with the decision I'm making, should that stop us from making a decision? Can you be honest about how finely tuned are your intuitions about this particular topic? So our son going out for jujitsu.
• 32:30
  Like how, like, I know you have alarm bells going off everywhere. How much did you trust that intuition? And this is kind of what Peterson's point was. What, what if a lot of the intuitions and alarm bells that are going off were designed for younger children? And now that, so one of the things that I've asked April for, I'm sorry, I said, could you, do you agree that in our marriage is probably better to trust my intuitions about our older children? Yeah.
• 32:56
  Like if you and I are disagreeing and it has to do with, especially something like safety or whatever, you know, and the kids are, you know, three or under, it's likely that I'm going to trust your intuition. But if the kids are like 16 or older and this, this, this could look different in every marriage, like every mother and father have different levels.
• 33:16
  But particularly for a mother who has really embraced and done a great job of living into the care of young children for years and years and years and years. That is an extremely difficult thing to ask a woman to do. Suddenly to have all the intuitions required to, while you're still caring for young children, now you've got a couple that are older. And so there was always, in more ancient cultures, there was...
• 33:42
  you had actually rituals that would cause women to go through this transition. There's a lot of tribes in which once a son reaches a certain age, there's a tribe in Africa where the sons will actually be in a –
• 33:59
  in a hut with all the women and all the women will be holding onto their sons. And the men actually burst into the hut and they rip the sons out of the arms of wailing women and mothers to bring them into a rite of passage, you know? And so they're really, they're living out this sort of almost mythic symbolic reality of like, okay, it is now time.
• 34:24
  for you to let go of that boy and let him become a man. And that means that he needs to be initiated by other men. And you are incapable of doing that. And so that picture has been really helpful to me because I'll, at any point, sometimes if April says certain things about our older children, I'll, I picture her almost like in a hut holding onto one of our kids. And I'm walking in saying, you gotta let them go. Like I'm going, I'm going to pull them away now.
• 34:51
  It's no longer time for that. There was a time for that, that time's over. And that can be really hard. And that has required a lot of conversations. But April and I have come to a place where I feel like there's a really good dynamic balance between me listening, submitting to her intuitions in certain stages and...
• 35:11
  when my alarm bells are going off and I'm like, I want to push them. And it's like, no, they're not really ready for that. Okay. I think you're right. And I've made the mistake of crossing those lines and regretted it. And, and then on the other side where she's been holding back, you know, one of our kids and I'm like, Hey, like what, one of the conversations we have often is with our older daughters is how,
• 35:31
  I've talked to April a lot about not using power language with them. So in other words, like, let's say they want to do something and it really is a wisdom issue. And so April's intuition is to say, no, you can't do that. And I'm like, you know, in that situation, you could have just said, I wouldn't do that. Or I wouldn't recommend you do that.
• 35:50
  You know, like that would be so much better. Just take all the power dynamics out of it. They're, they're 18. They don't need to, they don't need to submit to you. Like, you know, they may be asking you for something, but it's like, it's, it's, that's a really good response for an eight-year-old to hear in that situation. An 18-year-old, they're too old to hear it in that, in that way. And so that's, that's been a conversation a lot as well to try to like figure out that balance.
• 36:14
  Yeah, I think it, to my wife's point is like, yes, Tim, but the consequences of this will fall on me, not you. So for example, she's the one taking him to the doctor and the chiropractor and dealing with the wounds. Your father. It all could be avoided. And I'm like, okay, but I'm the one paying for the bill. So I don't say that. I just...
• 36:40
  I am also just need to be aware that the, that the consequences of my decisions impact her. And sometimes that's a good enough reason for me to, to go with her because I'm not going to be the ones.
• 36:53
  dealing with the repercussions of that. And when she's already feels like she's got too much on her plate for me to say, no, we're going to do this thing. And she's like, well, that's easy for you to say, like, there's a lot of back and forth. That's all. So that's why I think the pendulum analogy, the dance analogy, all of those make, make sense. We're just trying to figure this out almost on a kid by kid event by event basis. Yeah. It's becoming after a while. By the way, guys, one of the reasons why we have to figure this out,
• 37:21
  is that many of us want to build multi-generational families. And that is we want to be in very close relationship with our kids in their, in their twenties and their thirties. And man, if you, if you have a culture in your family, where let's say you have a wife who wants to treat everyone like a child forever, the best thing for your kids to do is to leave your family and start over a new family. Like how are they going to ever figure out and live into all the things that God's called them to do
• 37:49
  if they have a mother who will not let them grow up, you know? So, so I, I feel like there's a lot at stake in my wife, not treating my adult children, like children, you know, like little, little children. And April's done an amazing job of, of not doing this and like making that transition. I feel like that's a very difficult thing to ask of her, especially when our, when we still have younger kids now, part of the,
• 38:11
  One of these April said to me all the time is how can I have an 18 year old and treat them like an adult when I have like a, you know, an eight year old who I do have to treat like a child? Like it's, it's, that's asking so much of a, of a, of a mother. But I think that because I want my kids, I want to work with my kids. I want to build businesses with my kids. I want to build ministries. I want to, we want to be there to help raise our kids.
• 38:32
  you know, grandkids and help them, you know, maximize the expansion of our family to the next generation. And so we have to figure this out. Otherwise it becomes healthy for our kids to fly the nest and do the traditional Western family reset button thing, which I don't want to see happen to my family. So that's a big reason why this is top of mind. And I think something we wanted to talk to the family team's audience about.
• 38:56
  All right, we got time for one more topic. So I wanted to bring up one other thing that happened this week. So J.K. Rowling, who wrote the Harry Potter series, she's in the last couple of years really been battling in social media, really between her stance as a feminist and somebody who really wants to defend women.
• 39:18
  And she's been attacked a lot by the, by, you know, really trans activists, people who say that there should not be these women only spaces. That if a man wants to identify as a woman, then they should be able to go to women's prisons, women's sports, even women's shelters. And J.K. Rowling was very concerned about this because she was abused by her husband who was literally hunting her down. It's a really tragic story. And she was relying on...
• 39:46
  these women-only spaces to defend her, protect her, because other men would not protect her. She was being attacked by men. And so she felt like the only thing that really provided the proper level of safety were these places that would not allow any men to invade. And this allowed her to get free from this sort of psychopathic person who was coming after her. So that when she became famous and wealthy, she saw this happening and that other women were not gonna have the protection that she was afforded
• 40:16
  And so she started to push back and it created just an absolute firestorm of controversy around her the last two years. Well, this last week, a really interesting thing happened. So in Scotland, they passed this whole new set of basically hate crime laws that included potentially, and this is, I think, up to interpretation, but it seemed like in some of the things that J.K. Rowling was saying publicly about, you know, men and women are different.
• 40:41
  could cause her to go to jail and that she could be prosecuted under these new laws. Well, I think other people have come forward and said, look, we're not going to prosecute a public figure like you for violating these things we understand. She said, well...
• 40:58
  That's great for me, but what about other people? What about people that aren't public figures? They don't have a platform. Are they going to be prosecuted? And then a couple of days ago, she says this, which just kind of blew my mind. So she basically tweeted that if, let's see if I can get the exact wording that she used because it was really interesting how she said this. So there we go.
• 41:19
  She said, if they go after any woman for simply calling a man, a man, I'll repeat that woman's words and they can charge us both at once. So she said, yeah, if somebody with no platform gets accused of one of these hate crimes for doing something that I'm doing publicly in order to protect women, I'm just going to repeat their words and force them, force the justice system to throw me in prison along with this nameless person.
• 41:45
  So when I read this, I was like, this is the, there's two things, two reactions I had. This is the definition of courage, I think, is to say something like this publicly. And, and this is also, I think something that men should be doing, but we aren't. I think the whole reason to me, the best case for feminism is because men refuse to do things like this because men will not protect their daughters and men do not protect their mothers as well as other women who can empathize and identify with a difficult and vulnerable
• 42:15
  sometimes find themselves in. So if fathers do not protect mothers, wives, and daughters, then other women will step up to do it. And I don't know what your guys' thoughts are on that, but when I read the history of feminism, there's always two streams to me. One that I really have a lot of empathy for and the other that I'm really concerned about and feel like is sort of pathological. But the one that I really have a lot of empathy for
• 42:40
  is that sometimes if a group gets underrepresented, it's not necessarily a bad thing for a group to be underrepresented as long as those who are represented are representing them, right? So if, for example, you have a culture where men have a lot more power, but they're constantly using their power to defend women appropriately, then it isn't a big deal that women aren't in more power positions necessarily. But when it becomes an injustice, when men refuse to protect women,
• 43:10
  And then it's critical that women step up into those places and defend women because they are, it's not just that they're underrepresented from a numerical perspective, it's that their interests are being ignored by the people in power. And so when I saw this, does it really require a woman to say, I'll go to jail for other women who are being accused of hate crimes if their spaces are being violated?
• 43:37
  Or is that a position that men should be taking? I don't know if we guys' thoughts are, but that always stirs me up. Like when I see it kind of going back, like it feels like an abdication. It's not, to me, it's great that JK Rowling is doing this, but it feels like we've created a scenario where it's necessary for women to protect women. And that doesn't feel right to me. It feels like that's a signal that men are somehow not doing their job. Grant, do you have any thoughts on that?
• 44:05
  Yeah, actually, I'm going to go back to Jordan Peterson's video. If the maternal kind of instinct is there to protect and if the men speak out and he's considered the predator, I think that's why men aren't speaking out. I mean, I'm not trying to make an excuse. I'm trying to say the reality is if a man comes to defend that, potentially the predator flag is going to go up that Jordan was talking about there.
• 44:28
  And it's going to be doubled down on them. So I can see why it's happening. It doesn't make it okay. My initial reaction was I just I literally wrote down, amen. Like, like, it's just a resounding like, man, this is the right. This is right. You know, this is how it should should be. Like when you see injustice, you stand up behind it and you say, yes, I'm going to stand against this. And, you know, I do think men do carry a huge justice piece of the heart of God.
• 44:53
  And that's on purpose. And so I think this whole conversation, I mean, those two tie together really closely for me. If we're not walking out in the paternal, the way that we were created today,
• 45:05
  to carry this justice kind of hard of God. I know this isn't like absolutes, but, you know, women tend to carry more of the mercy heart of God. And it's like, no, no, we got to, we got to defend and we got to do this justice piece. And if we're, if we already had done that, we wouldn't be in this situation. And so I don't have any kind of answer of man, what should that look like? But what she's doing is right. That's, that's my, that's my reaction. Yeah. Yeah. That makes sense. Cool. Do you have any thoughts on this one?
• 45:31
  Yeah, so I hear what you're saying and I don't necessarily disagree. I guess the thought I was having is there are a lot of men speaking up about this stuff.
• 45:42
  And there are a lot of women speaking up about this stuff. And so I guess it feels a little bit like we're going a little bit too far to say women are speaking up because men aren't. And if men were just speaking up more, I was like, shouldn't everyone? Yes, both genders would be speaking about this. I think we see examples in Scripture where...
• 46:02
  women spoke up and that was the appropriate thing to do. And sometimes it was because a man wasn't, it was sometimes like Esther, it was like, God just raised her up, you know? And I'm, so I'm supportive of, I guess, it feels like I'm taking a middle ground. I'm not trying to just be, you know,
• 46:19
  I guess I'm just saying, like, I get what you're saying, but it feels a little bit too simple to me to say, like, JK Rowley wouldn't have to say this if men had done their part. And it sounds like from the story you shared, like that she might be saying something different if men had stepped up earlier, but they didn't, at least in her story, but in other women's stories, they have. So it just feels a little bit too much of a blanket statement to just kind of go one way or another on that one. That's all.
• 46:45
  Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Yeah, I think the part of her statement that felt different was to do the thing that would cause you to go to jail. In a situation where you have an unjust law being passed, one of the things that Jesus seemed to do, and this is kind of part of what got him crucified, was you basically violate the law publicly. Right.
• 47:09
  And I wonder if that is something that we should be aware of, at least, that it does look like in some countries. And this is, I don't know if Scotland's law has gone this far, but it seems like it's sort of edging into that realm of where you would believe anyone who went to jail filing this law is doing it.
• 47:32
  It's an unjust act and they're doing it to protect people and to protect, you know, vulnerable people in particular. And I think that that's, that's really an important place to me that feels like unique for men. Like men, I think are uniquely built to take hits on behalf of vulnerable people.
• 47:47
  And so, yeah, I agree with what you're saying, Tim. I don't think that's it. There's anything wrong with J.K. Rowling doing it. I didn't see any other men say this. Maybe they did. But it seems like we have to be careful not to hesitate to go to this extreme, to bear the punishment that a vulnerable person would have to bear. That, to me, seems...
• 48:11
  Pretty, I, and I'm really processing this out loud. So this is why this is a really helpful forum. Cause I, I actually don't know the answer to this very well. I just, I was very impressed with it and it really challenged me. Yeah. Yeah. I think maybe the question isn't as much like she wouldn't have to do this if a man did. And it's a little bit more of like, would I stand up for this or for whatever I believe, whether it's this situation or a different context or whatever, like, would I be willing to take this type of hit?
• 48:38
  And maybe for some things, yes. And for other things, no. Right. And that doesn't mean that. I don't think it's wrong for us to say, no, I'm not willing to take this type of hit because we're on different seasons, different places, different spirits of influence. But when it does make sense for us to take the hit and we are in a place to absorb that, I don't know. Or if we just feel like we're supposed to in that moment, you know. Yeah.
• 49:00
  we should super challenging. Awesome. Yeah. Yeah. We're at time guys. So thank you guys so much for, for doing this with me. And yeah, I really appreciate having a place to, to really process difficult conversations, difficult topics. And this was, this is really helpful to me. I hope for you guys listening was helpful as well. So thanks guys. Yeah. Thanks for having me.
• 49:22
  Thank you for listening to the Family Teams podcast. If you're enjoying this content or have learned something new, please make sure to leave a rating and review and share with a friend. To stay up to date with our events, new content, and products, you can follow us on Facebook and Instagram at Family Teams.