Latest / The Dr. Sarah Hensley Show / When You Start Hiding the Truth: Signs of Narcissistic Abuse | Part 2 of 3 | E14

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When You Start Hiding the Truth: Signs of Narcissistic Abuse | Part 2 of 3 | E14 · The Dr. Sarah Hensley Show

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  Speaker 2: would help support us. Today we are going to get
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  Speaker 2: into the signs of narcissistic abuse.
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  Speaker 1: Yes. So if you haven't listened to part one of
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  Speaker 1: this series last week, please go back and listen to
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  Speaker 1: that episode. It really gives a lot of context around
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  Speaker 1: the scientific origins of narcissism, the different theories of how
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  Speaker 1: narcissism functions for narcissistic individuals. And I think it's just
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  Speaker 1: a really good starter episode to kind of see how
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  Speaker 1: this develops because not everybody's a narcissist despite popular belief.
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  Speaker 1: Some people are just attachment insecure and it's not really
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  Speaker 1: easy to tell, but we're gonna really go into the
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  Speaker 1: depths of what narcissistic abuse looks like in a relationship. Again,
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  Speaker 1: some of these behaviors overlap with insecure behaviors. So a
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  Speaker 1: lot of it has to do with the severity of
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  Speaker 1: these behaviors, how much you see these behaviors show up
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  Speaker 1: someone's life across contexts with other people that the potential
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  Speaker 1: narcissist has frequent contact with. And if it just shows
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  Speaker 1: up in your intimate relationship, it's likely just insecure attachment.
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  Speaker 1: If you start to see some of these things show
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  Speaker 1: up across someone's life with other people that they have
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  Speaker 1: repeated close contact with, then you might want to put
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  Speaker 1: your antenna up and start researching narcissism. And what's interesting,
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  Speaker 1: and I think it's kind of a paradox, is that
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  Speaker 1: a lot of times the narcissistic individual can be very
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  Speaker 1: charming and can really impress other people. And a lot
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  Speaker 1: of other people will think they're great. But it's generally
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  Speaker 1: people that don't have, as I mentioned, close and repeated
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  Speaker 1: contact with the narcissist. So if you only see the
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  Speaker 1: pastor every Sunday, and the pastor's not an integral part
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  Speaker 1: of that person's life, they may be able to charm
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  Speaker 1: the pants off the pastor. but maybe their mother who
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  Speaker 1: sees them quite frequently or speaks to them quite frequently,
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  Speaker 1: they can degrade or devalue. That's a sign. Usually narcissists
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  Speaker 1: are not just narcissists in their intimate relationships. They're narcissists
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  Speaker 1: in all close relationships. And I think that's fundamentally really
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  Speaker 1: important to understand because attachment doesn't show up as strongly
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  Speaker 1: as outside of the romantic intimate relationship? Maybe a little bit,
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  Speaker 1: but not nearly as strongly.
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  Speaker 2: So I want to start at the beginning and kind
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  Speaker 2: of break down the timeline. And of course, I realize
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  Speaker 2: it's probably variable and nuanced, but in terms of the
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  Speaker 2: patterns that initially show up, and it's funny because preparing
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  Speaker 2: for this episode today at the gym this morning, I
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  Speaker 2: was listening to a podcast called The Narcissist Apocalypse. And
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  Speaker 2: it's real people's stories of their experiences with narcissists. And
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  Speaker 2: it's really interesting. And one of the first signs that
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  Speaker 2: I've never really thought about until I listened to this episode,
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  Speaker 2: which was they start by slowly becoming your source and
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  Speaker 2: your only source of truth. And I found that really,
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  Speaker 2: really interesting because I was like, oh, okay. I always
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  Speaker 2: thought really isolation was sort of the first step. But
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  Speaker 2: it's slower than that. It's more methodical than that. And
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  Speaker 2: so break that down for us.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, well, narcissistic abuse, as we talked about last time,
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  Speaker 1: happens in a cycle. It is always the same cycle.
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  Speaker 1: And I think that cycle has been well documented in
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  Speaker 1: the science where it's love bombing, honeymoon, devaluation, discard, hoover,
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  Speaker 1: back into the honeymoon stage and watch, rinse, repeat, right?
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  Speaker 1: And what you're really talking about is this sort of
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  Speaker 1: reality manipulation. Where the narcissistic individual is always going to
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  Speaker 1: have an opinion about who is right and who is
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  Speaker 1: wrong in your world. And they will, again, be this
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  Speaker 1: central source of truth for you where if you are
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  Speaker 1: taking information from other contexts, friends, family, somebody you listen
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  Speaker 1: to on a podcast, if it doesn't, line up with
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  Speaker 1: their belief system or it somehow means that they will
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  Speaker 1: be less able to control you, if you believe that thing,
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  Speaker 1: they're going to shoot it down.
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  Speaker 2: Yep. They're going to degrade it.
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  Speaker 1: They're going to degrade it in some way. They're going
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  Speaker 1: to call into question the legitimacy of that source. And
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  Speaker 1: they ultimately think, you know, I'm the source of truth
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  Speaker 1: for pretty much everything. Their opinions are usually extremely strong.
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  Speaker 2: So I think that when I was listening this morning,
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  Speaker 2: I was like, yeah, that makes so much sense because
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  Speaker 2: I remember, and I'm sure that some of you all
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  Speaker 2: can relate if you've ever experienced this type of situation
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  Speaker 2: where it's like they slowly start to, specifically with family,
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  Speaker 2: you know.
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  Speaker 1: Oh, yes.
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  Speaker 2: I never, I always knew like growing up that like
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  Speaker 2: my family had some level of dysfunction. I think all
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  Speaker 2: families do. Sure. But never to the level that my
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  Speaker 2: ex-partner- put on it. So it was like, all of
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  Speaker 2: a sudden I felt like not only was my family
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  Speaker 2: super dysfunctional, his family was extremely non-dysfunctional. And so he
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  Speaker 2: was like pulling, that was like the first step into
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  Speaker 2: becoming like this source of truth, but also isolating.
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  Speaker 1: And I think one of the things that they can
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  Speaker 1: do is really devalue people that you really love and
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  Speaker 1: respect and in order to, again, not just isolate you,
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  Speaker 1: but to pull you away from the source of that
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  Speaker 1: person's rationality. Because that person is seeing the narcissist more
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  Speaker 1: objectively than you are. And that's a big threat to them.
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  Speaker 1: And so, for example, if your mother, say, has been
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  Speaker 1: a big help with your children, and it's because the
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  Speaker 1: narcissist wants The appearance of a happy, loving home with
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  Speaker 1: kids and the happy, loving family, they don't actually want
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  Speaker 1: to put in the time, energy, and effort it takes
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  Speaker 1: to raise that family and to contribute to the raising
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  Speaker 1: of that family. And so your mother has gotten used
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  Speaker 1: to stepping in. They might all of a sudden come
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  Speaker 1: back and say, your mom is the reason our relationship
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  Speaker 1: is problematic. Your mom is always stepping in and butting
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  Speaker 1: into our life. And trying to convince you that your
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  Speaker 1: mom is the problem when your mom has literally been
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  Speaker 1: picking up the slack, doing the job of what they
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  Speaker 1: can't do. Otherwise, you'd be a single parent. That is
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  Speaker 1: a perfect example of how they will manipulate you into
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  Speaker 1: thinking everybody else is the problem while simultaneously hurting you
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  Speaker 1: in really big ways.
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  Speaker 2: And never acknowledging their part in it.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, right? And so you could say something like, well,
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  Speaker 1: I need them. And then they will come back and say, well,
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  Speaker 1: then you're deficient for needing them. You shouldn't need to
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  Speaker 1: have that kind of help. So no matter how you
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  Speaker 1: look at it, you're going to end up being in
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  Speaker 1: the wrong. Because if you can't be superhuman and you
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  Speaker 1: can't take care of the kids and the house and
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  Speaker 1: every bit of mental load and physical load of operating
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  Speaker 1: the household and your mom sees this and starts to
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  Speaker 1: step in, then they can focus on how your mom
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  Speaker 1: is too involved in the relationship, not the reason that
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  Speaker 1: mom had to step in in the first place because
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  Speaker 1: you were drowning. So that's an example of this. And
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  Speaker 1: then there's gaslighting. And I think we've touched on this,
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  Speaker 1: probably touched on it last episode, but it's worth touching
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  Speaker 1: on again. So many people are like, you're gaslighting me,
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  Speaker 1: you're gaslighting me. And really what's happening isn't gaslighting. It's
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  Speaker 1: someone viewed a situation from a different perspective.
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  Speaker 2: So how do you tell the difference?
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's hard.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: Because someone could go, well, you yelled.
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  Speaker 2: At me.
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  Speaker 1: And maybe their tone was elevated, but it wasn't really yelling.
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  Speaker 1: And then that can feel like gaslighting. But really what's
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  Speaker 1: happening in that person's mind is your tone is so
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  Speaker 1: much louder than what it usually is. To me, it
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  Speaker 1: felt like yelling. Gaslighting is when it's extremely factual. And
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  Speaker 1: they are not telling you the truth. So you find
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  Speaker 1: inappropriate texts on their phone. Clearly it's inappropriate. Maybe they're
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  Speaker 1: making flirty jokes or something like this. And you're going,
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  Speaker 1: you shouldn't be texting that person this type of information.
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  Speaker 1: You shouldn't be commenting on a picture that they sent you.
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  Speaker 2: That's inappropriate.
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  Speaker 1: That's inappropriate. And they're like, friends just do that.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah. They brush it off as no big deal.
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  Speaker 1: As no big deal. We're getting a little bit of,
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  Speaker 1: we're getting out of just, this is a different perspective
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  Speaker 1: and into sort of black and white boundaries of what
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  Speaker 1: is right and what is wrong. And I swear to goodness,
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  Speaker 1: a true pathological narcissist, you can back them completely into
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  Speaker 1: a corner and they will still lie or somehow manipulate
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  Speaker 1: the situation. It's, it's, it's insane. Um, And so gaslighting
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  Speaker 1: is like, I never said that when they clearly said it. Like,
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  Speaker 1: they called you a bitch.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: Or they called you an asshole. And you're like, you
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  Speaker 1: just called me an asshole. Like, that's unacceptable. And they'll say,
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  Speaker 1: I didn't say that. And you're like, I just heard it.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's gaslighting. Not like, oh, well, I feel like
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  Speaker 1: you're being mean. Like, that's subjective. You know?
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  Speaker 2: Right, right.
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  Speaker 1: What is... There's a whole range of that. You either
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  Speaker 1: said the word asshole or you didn't say it. There's
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  Speaker 1: no in between. Did it come out of your mouth
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  Speaker 1: or did it not? A narcissist will say, look you
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  Speaker 1: straight dead ass in the eye and say, I didn't
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  Speaker 1: do that. I didn't say that.
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  Speaker 2: Or they'll make a big elaborate lies to cover up
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  Speaker 2: smaller lies.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah. Oh yeah. Like the lies just are upon lies
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  Speaker 1: are upon lies. Another behavior to look out for, which
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  Speaker 1: is difficult because it's a common insecure behavior too, is
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  Speaker 1: blame shifting. So their harmful behavior becomes a conversation about
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  Speaker 1: what you did to cause it. So maybe they call
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  Speaker 1: you horrible names during an argument again, right? And they'll say, well,
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  Speaker 1: how did you expect me to react after how you
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  Speaker 1: talked to me? So now it's my... It's my problem.
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  Speaker 2: Right.
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  Speaker 1: I kept my voice calm. I didn't call you any names.
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  Speaker 1: But you had to call me names because of how
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  Speaker 1: I spoke to you. I think this is a fundamental
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  Speaker 1: misperception in what a lot of people view as, well,
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  Speaker 1: you made me do it. Nobody makes you do anything.
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  Speaker 1: Nobody makes you do anything. You choose it.
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  Speaker 2: This is where the victim mindset has to really shift
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  Speaker 2: because it's so easy to be manipulated in that situation
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  Speaker 2: to think like, yeah, I am the problem. Yeah, he's like,
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  Speaker 2: they're right.
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  Speaker 1: Sure, absolutely. And so then in order to gain control,
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  Speaker 1: you start to focus on how can I control the
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  Speaker 1: situation instead of saying, nope, this is a line in
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  Speaker 1: the sand. I don't care what I said to you.
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  Speaker 1: You always have a choice in how you respond. And
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  Speaker 1: if you respond with screaming profanities at me, that is
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  Speaker 1: your choice. That is your own inability to control your
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  Speaker 1: temper no matter what. You can always set a boundary
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  Speaker 1: with someone. You don't have to resort to screaming and cursing.
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  Speaker 1: And what you said really leads me into my next point,
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  Speaker 1: which is DARVO. Deny, attack, reverse, victim, and offender. And
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  Speaker 1: so this is when you confront them and they rapidly
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  Speaker 1: move from the accused to the victim. And this can
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  Speaker 1: look a lot of different ways. It can look a
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  Speaker 1: lot of different ways. It could be, I think, the
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  Speaker 1: most common one I hear in my practices. I discovered
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  Speaker 1: something on my partner's phone and then they were like,
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  Speaker 1: how dare you go through my phone?
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  Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.
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  Speaker 1: Well, maybe if you weren't darting into the bathroom every
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  Speaker 1: 10 minutes on your phone or putting a new passcode
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  Speaker 1: on your phone and acting super weird and secretive, and
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  Speaker 1: then I can't trust you to tell me the truth,
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  Speaker 1: then I wouldn't have to look at your phone. But again,
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  Speaker 1: if you have to do that, red flag. You shouldn't
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  Speaker 1: be with someone who gives you a pit in your
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  Speaker 1: stomach when they pick their phone up. That is no
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  Speaker 1: way to live. No way to live.
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  Speaker 2: They're paying me all the money in the world. Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: Been there, done that.
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  Speaker 1: I would rather Kegel broken glass. Yes.
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  Speaker 2: Oh, my gosh. That's the best line ever.
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  Speaker 1: Than be with someone who made me nervous every time
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  Speaker 1: they were on their phone. Like, who are they talking to?
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  Speaker 2: Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: And so they deny flirting. They accuse you of invading
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  Speaker 1: their privacy. And then by the end of the day,
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  Speaker 1: you're apologizing to them for breaking their trust.
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  Speaker 2: And that cycle too, I want to talk a little
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  Speaker 2: bit more about that cycle and what really happens to
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  Speaker 2: the victim in that situation. Because I understand that it
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  Speaker 2: makes them feel even more isolated. But what's happening to
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  Speaker 2: the brain?
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  Speaker 1: Yes. So the brain goes into threat mode. And a
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  Speaker 1: lot of people have different threat responses. And the threat
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  Speaker 1: response really depends upon the attachment style. So I think...
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  Speaker 1: you know, as a former FA with a very strong
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  Speaker 1: fight response. I used to have the worst fight response.
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  Speaker 1: So my situation would look like husband did something incredibly inappropriate.
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  Speaker 1: I would have to demand that he talked to me
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  Speaker 1: about it, demand he see my point of view of
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  Speaker 1: how hurtful it was. And then he would get very,
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  Speaker 1: very upset back. We would have a blowout argument and
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  Speaker 1: then he would always be the one to leave. The
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  Speaker 1: avoidance was the end response. then I would be stuck
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  Speaker 1: in massive anxiety, like this is not resolved.
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  Speaker 2: Rumination.
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  Speaker 1: Rumination, not be able to sleep. But again, and then
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  Speaker 1: I would get blamed that my fight response was the problem.
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  Speaker 1: And so I would at first start questioning, well, maybe
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  Speaker 1: I am the problem. Then I think I got over that.
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  Speaker 1: Then I think I got over, no, you really are
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  Speaker 1: the problem. You really are the problem.
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  Speaker 2: Eventually it starts to click a little.
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  Speaker 1: And there is something called reactive abuse where after a while,
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  Speaker 1: someone has pushed your nervous system so much to the
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  Speaker 1: edge where it does become sort of hair trigger and
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  Speaker 1: you can react to the same level that they do.
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  Speaker 1: And I think people, it's hard. I think sometimes people say, oh,
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  Speaker 1: don't blame yourself. It was just reactive abuse. At some point,
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  Speaker 1: you do have to take responsibility that you've stayed to
• 17:39
  Speaker 1: the degree where now you are reacting as poorly as
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  Speaker 1: they are. There's responsibility there, right? Again, it goes back
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  Speaker 1: to no one made you do that. You stayed to
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  Speaker 1: the point where your nervous system now behaves that way.
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  Speaker 2: But that should also be a sign, right? Of course.
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  Speaker 2: That was a sign that I felt deeply was like,
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  Speaker 2: When I started to see the shift in who I
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  Speaker 2: was morally as a person, I was like, I gotta go.
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  Speaker 1: I don't like who I am.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, I gotta go.
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  Speaker 1: If you're saying, I don't like who I am with
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  Speaker 1: this person, stop trying to change that person and start
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  Speaker 1: changing who you are. Become someone that can walk away.
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  Speaker 1: Whatever that takes, whatever healing journey that looks like for you,
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  Speaker 1: I mean, I've got one if you want one, but
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  Speaker 1: whatever it takes- There is nothing worse than hating who
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  Speaker 1: you are because of the relationship that you're in.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah. And those narratives can get really tricky really quickly
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  Speaker 2: in that circumstance because you do, especially I think if
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  Speaker 2: you are a sensitive person or you're a strong empath,
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  Speaker 2: you really start to think about like, I know I
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  Speaker 2: did about all the things I'd done wrong. But then
• 18:53
  Speaker 2: at my core, I knew it's not who I was.
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  Speaker 2: And so really removing myself from it and being able
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  Speaker 2: to control more of the narrative around it, it allowed
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  Speaker 2: me to control more of the narrative around it.
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  Speaker 1: Yes.
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  Speaker 2: And then see it more clearly once I was out
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  Speaker 2: of it. Absolutely.
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  Speaker 1: When you're in it, you are so blind. You are
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  Speaker 1: so trauma bonded. Your brain is so highly addicted to it.
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  Speaker 1: You just cannot see clearly. You can't. And so I
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  Speaker 1: think Every victim of narcissistic abuse ends up getting to
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  Speaker 1: a place where they have to start hiding a lot
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  Speaker 1: of aspects of their relationship because it's embarrassing. It's embarrassing
• 19:41
  Speaker 1: because you know if you tell someone the raw truth
• 19:44
  Speaker 1: of what happened, they are going to go, what is
• 19:46
  Speaker 1: wrong with you?
• 19:47
  Speaker 2: You have to leave. Yeah, you can't defend them anymore. Yeah,
• 19:48
  Speaker 2: you can't defend them.
• 19:50
  Speaker 1: And so you start concealing aspects of your relationship because
• 19:55
  Speaker 1: you know how outrageous it would sound. That's your sign.
• 19:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah, which also makes you feel more isolated. It does.
• 20:01
  Speaker 2: It just compounds and compounds the isolation.
• 20:04
  Speaker 1: And you know you would have to somehow defend them,
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: and there really is no good way to defend them.
• 20:08
  Speaker 1: If you have to perform extensive mental gymnastics to defend
• 20:12
  Speaker 1: your relationship because their behavior is so egregious, oh my gosh,
• 20:16
  Speaker 1: please leave. And then we see things like punishing through withdrawal.
• 20:21
  Speaker 1: And this is why I think I get the question,
• 20:23
  Speaker 1: what's the difference between a dismissive avoidant and a narcissist
• 20:26
  Speaker 1: so much? Because when someone can walk away from you,
• 20:29
  Speaker 1: when they can see from their vision you being vulnerable
• 20:36
  Speaker 1: and heartbroken and desperate for repair, and they can literally
• 20:40
  Speaker 1: walk away from that, it is easy to go, oh
• 20:43
  Speaker 1: my gosh, how cruel. And the dismissive avoidant is not
• 20:47
  Speaker 1: trying to be cruel. Their nervous system is so freaking scared.
• 20:51
  Speaker 1: They are so scared of that emotion that it just
• 20:54
  Speaker 1: shuts down. A narcissist knows exactly what they are doing
• 21:00
  Speaker 1: when they're walking away and they're going, I hope it hurts.
• 21:03
  Speaker 1: Of course you want me. And it makes them feel
• 21:05
  Speaker 1: so good to know that you desperately want them and
• 21:09
  Speaker 1: that they can withhold it from you. So you really
• 21:14
  Speaker 1: have to try to figure out, and it's not always easy.
• 21:18
  Speaker 1: Are they doing this to control me or punish me?
• 21:20
  Speaker 1: Or are they doing this because their nervous system is
• 21:23
  Speaker 1: freaked out? But let me give a caveat to that. Yes,
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: you should try to figure that out if you really
• 21:30
  Speaker 1: want to think about approaching intervention. But if they won't
• 21:34
  Speaker 1: do intervention with you, their behavior is all you need.
• 21:39
  Speaker 1: You don't need them to understand you more. Their behavior
• 21:44
  Speaker 1: should guide your exit. Instead of trying to explain to
• 21:47
  Speaker 1: them why that hurts so much when they shut down,
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: take them shutting down as a sign that they're not
• 21:54
  Speaker 1: good for you.
• 21:54
  Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.
• 21:58
  Speaker 1: And I mean, yeah, see if they'll do intervention. If
• 22:00
  Speaker 1: they won't, you ultimately are making the decision to stay
• 22:03
  Speaker 1: with someone who fundamentally cannot and will not give you
• 22:06
  Speaker 1: what you need. This podcast is brought to you by
• 22:10
  Speaker 1: the Dr. Sarah Hensley Relationship Coaching Services. If you're looking
• 22:14
  Speaker 1: to achieve your attachment security and make dramatic transformations in
• 22:18
  Speaker 1: your romantic relationship, I would love to help you. In
• 22:22
  Speaker 1: my practice, we have a self-paced option where you can
• 22:25
  Speaker 1: work at your own pace and achieve attachment security through
• 22:29
  Speaker 1: very prescriptive and logical tools that help you regulate your
• 22:34
  Speaker 1: nervous system, understand your mindset and view your partner from
• 22:37
  Speaker 1: an objective lens, as well as learn the secure behavior
• 22:40
  Speaker 1: it takes to create a lasting and loving relationship. You
• 22:43
  Speaker 1: can also add on my hybrid group, which is a
• 22:46
  Speaker 1: set of four small group calls where you can be
• 22:49
  Speaker 1: anonymous in the group and you can ask questions about
• 22:52
  Speaker 1: what you're learning in the self-paced part of the program.
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: You literally get to pick my brain and And this
• 22:57
  Speaker 1: is a great program for more avoidant attachment styles who
• 23:00
  Speaker 1: really tend to get triggered in therapeutic settings. They can
• 23:03
  Speaker 1: be a fly on the wall, stay regulated, learn, and
• 23:07
  Speaker 1: actually transform. So please send us a message or you
• 23:12
  Speaker 1: can always text our business line at 502-427-6945. And myself
• 23:18
  Speaker 1: or one of my assistant coaches will help find the
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: program that's right for you. Or you can visit my
• 23:23
  Speaker 1: website at drsarahhensley.com. That's D-O-C-T-O-R sarahhensley.com.
• 23:30
  Speaker 2: Do you think that, because I know we've talked about
• 23:33
  Speaker 2: the therapy setting not always being the best setting for
• 23:36
  Speaker 2: like a DA. Correct. How is that similar with the narcissist?
• 23:43
  Speaker 2: Because are they ever really going to take any accountability?
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: They might take fake accountability. It depends on how intelligent
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: they are. Like an intelligent narcissist can manipulate a therapist.
• 23:56
  Speaker 1: Easily manipulate a therapist. Easily. They can take fake accountability.
• 24:04
  Speaker 1: They can have selective empathy. And they can convince a
• 24:08
  Speaker 1: therapist that you're the problem. So it's a risky business.
• 24:16
  Speaker 1: So that's when you have to Look objectively at someone's behavior.
• 24:23
  Speaker 2: Overall.
• 24:24
  Speaker 1: Overall. How does their behavior make me feel? Does their
• 24:30
  Speaker 1: behavior work for me? Does their behavior hurt me? Does
• 24:33
  Speaker 1: their behavior not meet my needs? That is all the
• 24:39
  Speaker 1: information you need to make a decision about whether to
• 24:43
  Speaker 1: continue in this relationship. That's all the information you need ultimately.
• 24:49
  Speaker 1: And if you're at the point of intervention and it
• 24:51
  Speaker 1: is not helping. And depending upon the type of intervention
• 24:56
  Speaker 1: you get, intervention can be slow. So you can't just
• 25:01
  Speaker 1: go to therapy or go to coaching one time and
• 25:04
  Speaker 1: be like, well, it didn't work.
• 25:05
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 25:06
  Speaker 1: You have to see it through. Give it some months.
• 25:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 25:10
  Speaker 1: But again, that also depends upon the level of severity
• 25:14
  Speaker 1: of their behavior. If they're incredibly abusive, get out now.
• 25:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 25:19
  Speaker 1: My philosophy on abuse is if you abuse, you lose.
• 25:21
  Speaker 1: You can leave somebody abruptly if they're abusing you, and
• 25:24
  Speaker 1: you should.
• 25:24
  Speaker 2: In the therapy setting or the coaching setting in terms
• 25:28
  Speaker 2: of timeline, what are some signs that maybe somebody is improving?
• 25:34
  Speaker 1: It's going to start small.
• 25:35
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 25:36
  Speaker 1: It's going to look like instead of walking away from
• 25:39
  Speaker 1: hard conversations, like when you tell somebody, hey, you hurt
• 25:43
  Speaker 1: my feelings, and instead of discussing it, they just get
• 25:47
  Speaker 1: ice cold and they– They shut down and then you
• 25:51
  Speaker 1: end up having to apologize a couple days later to
• 25:53
  Speaker 1: restore the connection. They might say, okay, you know, I'm
• 26:00
  Speaker 1: willing to hear you. Like they might be able to
• 26:02
  Speaker 1: stay engaged a little bit. Maybe eventually they still disconnect,
• 26:06
  Speaker 1: but they stayed in it longer. Those are some signs.
• 26:09
  Speaker 2: Or they didn't instantly blame, like put the blame back
• 26:12
  Speaker 2: on you.
• 26:13
  Speaker 1: Exactly. And so a decrease in defensiveness is a huge
• 26:17
  Speaker 1: sign that someone is able to change.
• 26:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I know one question I've seen often is like,
• 26:23
  Speaker 2: my partner tells me that I'm too sensitive, right? Which
• 26:26
  Speaker 2: is definitely something that I think a DA would say. Oh,
• 26:29
  Speaker 2: for sure.
• 26:29
  Speaker 1: They say it all the time.
• 26:30
  Speaker 2: And potentially something that a narcissist would say. 100%.
• 26:33
  Speaker 1: Nobody gets to be the sensitivity police in a relationship.
• 26:38
  Speaker 2: Nobody.
• 26:39
  Speaker 1: You don't get to tell your partner that they're not
• 26:43
  Speaker 1: sensitive enough and they don't get to tell you that
• 26:45
  Speaker 1: you're too sensitive. So how do you get around that?
• 26:47
  Speaker 2: You get around.
• 26:49
  Speaker 1: That by seeing if your partner is willing to take
• 26:56
  Speaker 1: on the viewpoint that if it doesn't work for one
• 27:00
  Speaker 1: of you, it doesn't really work for the couple. And
• 27:02
  Speaker 1: that if you guys can figure out a way to
• 27:04
  Speaker 1: move forward that respects both people and in some way
• 27:09
  Speaker 1: meets the needs of both people, then you have a
• 27:12
  Speaker 1: healthy relationship. But if it has to always be their
• 27:15
  Speaker 1: way or the highway, it's never gonna change. And nobody
• 27:21
  Speaker 1: gets to be the sensitivity police. Like sensitivity is subjective.
• 27:26
  Speaker 1: And so if you're always having to try to decrease
• 27:31
  Speaker 1: your level of sensitivity, go get some intervention. talk to
• 27:37
  Speaker 1: an objected third party, ask, am I being too sensitive
• 27:40
  Speaker 1: here or am I asking for just basic respect? Bring
• 27:44
  Speaker 1: in a third party that can help you walk away
• 27:48
  Speaker 1: from the gaslighting and manipulation that might be blinding you
• 27:55
  Speaker 1: to the fact that you're just asking for basic needs
• 27:59
  Speaker 1: to be met and basic respect and someone is trying
• 28:02
  Speaker 1: to convince you that you're too sensitive. And then figure
• 28:06
  Speaker 1: out your boundaries.
• 28:06
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 28:09
  Speaker 1: Again, for a narcissist, their silence is regulating to their
• 28:12
  Speaker 1: nervous system in the fact that they see their ability
• 28:19
  Speaker 1: to control you as confirmation that they are special.
• 28:24
  Speaker 2: That was going to be my next question because I
• 28:26
  Speaker 2: know another thing that you would see that's so similar
• 28:30
  Speaker 2: between the DA and the narcissist is like, A DA
• 28:32
  Speaker 2: needing space.
• 28:33
  Speaker 1: To regulate their nervous system.
• 28:34
  Speaker 2: So how do you tell the difference between somebody needing
• 28:36
  Speaker 2: space versus somebody giving me the silent treatment to punish me?
• 28:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a really, really hard one. I think there's
• 28:44
  Speaker 1: micro cues. A DA oftentimes can, during their silence, there's
• 28:55
  Speaker 1: a little bit more of normalcy. Like they don't have
• 28:59
  Speaker 1: this energy of I hate you.
• 29:01
  Speaker 2: Right. They don't go and cheat on you when they're
• 29:04
  Speaker 2: giving you a silent treatment. That's the difference.
• 29:07
  Speaker 1: There's more of like a, I don't know how to
• 29:10
  Speaker 1: deal with this. I don't even know if we should
• 29:13
  Speaker 1: really be fighting about this. There's not this sadistic element
• 29:18
  Speaker 1: to it. With a narcissist, they will, when you walk
• 29:25
  Speaker 1: into the room that they're in, immediately leave. Immediately.
• 29:29
  Speaker 2: Damn.
• 29:30
  Speaker 1: To hit you in the gut. A DA will kind
• 29:32
  Speaker 1: of stay in the room. They'll let you hover around
• 29:36
  Speaker 1: them a little bit. They might not say anything.
• 29:38
  Speaker 2: That's a really good one.
• 29:39
  Speaker 1: They might not say anything, but the narcissist is going
• 29:42
  Speaker 1: to immediately leave and maybe glare at you as they do.
• 29:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and be really grandiose and obvious about it, just
• 29:49
  Speaker 2: as a jab.
• 29:49
  Speaker 1: This is a punishment. How dare you try to come
• 29:52
  Speaker 1: close to me? Whereas the DA is like, wait, are
• 29:54
  Speaker 1: you okay? Is it normal again? Can we resume normal life?
• 29:58
  Speaker 1: their nervous system is kind of checking in.
• 30:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I want to talk about jealousy with the narcissist.
• 30:03
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 30:04
  Speaker 2: Because I think that it's like, you know, we all
• 30:07
  Speaker 2: as human beings tend to maybe have a little bit
• 30:09
  Speaker 2: of jealousy, but when does jealousy move over into this
• 30:13
  Speaker 2: place of like real control?
• 30:15
  Speaker 1: Sure. That's a great question. A lot of narcissists will
• 30:20
  Speaker 1: not act very jealous in a relationship. If you give
• 30:22
  Speaker 1: them no signs that you are going to leave them
• 30:27
  Speaker 1: or because you keep returning to their BS over and
• 30:30
  Speaker 1: over and over again, and they become confident that you're
• 30:33
  Speaker 1: not going to leave, they don't worry about you. If
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: you give them no signs that anybody else might want you,
• 30:41
  Speaker 1: they're not going to be jealous. You've given them no
• 30:44
  Speaker 1: reason to be. And they're overconfident people most of the time,
• 30:48
  Speaker 1: if you have more of a grandiose narcissist.
• 30:53
  Speaker 2: Jealousy comes in when you decide to leave.
• 30:56
  Speaker 1: Right. Or.
• 30:59
  Speaker 1: They have not beat you down to the point where
• 31:01
  Speaker 1: they are not yet confident that you're going to be
• 31:05
  Speaker 1: desirable to someone else. If they have beaten you down
• 31:08
  Speaker 1: to the point where you have no self-esteem and they
• 31:11
  Speaker 1: do not believe that you're a real threat to leave
• 31:13
  Speaker 1: them or that you're not desirable for someone else, they
• 31:15
  Speaker 1: don't care. So like, for example, in my marriage, I
• 31:19
  Speaker 1: heard a lot of, nobody would want you.
• 31:21
  Speaker 2: You're fat.
• 31:22
  Speaker 1: You're ugly. You're ugly. You can't even clean house. You're
• 31:26
  Speaker 1: not even that great of a cook. You have nothing
• 31:28
  Speaker 1: to offer someone else. No worry whatsoever that I was
• 31:32
  Speaker 1: going to ever leave. But the moment that I did
• 31:34
  Speaker 1: and started dating someone else, then it was, holy crap,
• 31:38
  Speaker 1: I will literally break into your house and burn down
• 31:40
  Speaker 1: things that I think that person may have touched.
• 31:43
  Speaker 2: The control comes in.
• 31:44
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 31:45
  Speaker 2: That's where it comes in.
• 31:46
  Speaker 1: It comes in. Now, we do have people who are narcissists,
• 31:50
  Speaker 1: I think, of the more vulnerable type. that have higher
• 31:53
  Speaker 1: jealousy because they don't feel as confident and capable as
• 32:00
  Speaker 1: the grandiose narcissist does. Like the grandiose narcissist's default belief
• 32:04
  Speaker 1: system is I am so special. I am so amazing.
• 32:08
  Speaker 1: Like you will never get anything better than me. So
• 32:10
  Speaker 1: I'm really not that worried about it. The vulnerable narcissist, remember,
• 32:14
  Speaker 1: is I am special and grandiose, but people don't really
• 32:17
  Speaker 1: see it. So they're scared you don't see it. And
• 32:20
  Speaker 1: so they have higher levels of jealousy and control. Yeah.
• 32:25
  Speaker 2: Going back to boundaries, like what's something someone should look
• 32:29
  Speaker 2: for when they set a boundary with a narcissist? Like
• 32:32
  Speaker 2: what's some narcissistic behavior versus somebody who maybe just has
• 32:36
  Speaker 2: some insecure attachment? You know, what should people look for?
• 32:42
  Speaker 1: If you say to your partner, I think I need
• 32:46
  Speaker 1: a little space, but I really do care about you
• 32:49
  Speaker 1: and I care about this conversation and I'm going to
• 32:51
  Speaker 1: return to it. And they come and block the doorway
• 32:55
  Speaker 1: and say, you can't leave. That's treading upon some narcissistic control.
• 33:04
  Speaker 1: Nobody should ever block your freedom to move around. Nobody.
• 33:11
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Ever.
• 33:13
  Speaker 1: Nobody should ever take your phone away from you. Nobody
• 33:17
  Speaker 1: should ever take your things.
• 33:21
  Speaker 2: And throw them off a mountainside.
• 33:24
  Speaker 1: Nobody should be hiding your car keys, hiding your debit card,
• 33:28
  Speaker 1: blocking the doorway. Absolutely not.
• 33:32
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 33:33
  Speaker 1: Again, an anxious person, can they follow you around and
• 33:36
  Speaker 1: beg you? Yes.
• 33:38
  Speaker 2: Yeah. That's the hard part.
• 33:40
  Speaker 1: When it comes to then preventing you from having freedom,
• 33:44
  Speaker 1: that crosses a line. And I can't tell you that
• 33:46
  Speaker 1: someone who blocks a doorway is a narcissist.
• 33:49
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 33:49
  Speaker 1: Could be somebody who is incredibly anxious and just really
• 33:53
  Speaker 1: doesn't want you to leave. again, if you're focusing so
• 33:57
  Speaker 1: much on whether is this narcissism or is it not
• 34:00
  Speaker 1: versus is this behavior acceptable, that's the problem.
• 34:04
  Speaker 2: I do want to get into sex and narcissism because
• 34:09
  Speaker 2: I think this is one, something that maybe isn't talked
• 34:13
  Speaker 2: about enough, but those signs that you see with them
• 34:18
  Speaker 2: sexually that I think are big Red flags. Huge red flags. Yeah.
• 34:25
  Speaker 1: There is an association between grandiose narcissism or overt narcissism
• 34:30
  Speaker 1: and hypersexuality. There is.
• 34:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah.
• 34:37
  Speaker 1: And a lot of people focus on men, but I
• 34:40
  Speaker 1: think we don't give enough attention to the female narcissist
• 34:43
  Speaker 1: and how she can use her sexuality to manipulate and
• 34:45
  Speaker 1: control men. I see it all the time. Oh my gosh,
• 34:48
  Speaker 1: I see it all the time. Especially men. With high
• 34:52
  Speaker 1: net worth. Men with money. Sex should never be used
• 35:00
  Speaker 1: as a weapon. Now, let me say this to be
• 35:02
  Speaker 1: very careful. If there is emotional safety in the relationship
• 35:06
  Speaker 1: and you are willing to provide someone emotional safety and
• 35:09
  Speaker 1: they are using sex to manipulate or hurt you, that's
• 35:13
  Speaker 1: not okay. But someone saying, I don't feel safe enough
• 35:18
  Speaker 1: to have sex with you because I don't get emotional
• 35:21
  Speaker 1: intimacy or I don't feel like you're faithful to me,
• 35:24
  Speaker 1: that's not using sex as a weapon. That's someone who's
• 35:28
  Speaker 1: sexually shut down because they feel unsafe.
• 35:30
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 35:31
  Speaker 1: And I think a lot of people like to twist
• 35:33
  Speaker 1: that and manipulate that into being like, well, you're punishing
• 35:35
  Speaker 1: me by withholding sex.
• 35:36
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 35:37
  Speaker 1: No, I don't feel safe opening my body to you
• 35:40
  Speaker 1: because there isn't emotional safety here. Emotional safety always has
• 35:44
  Speaker 1: to come before sex. Always.
• 35:47
  Speaker 2: For men and women?
• 35:48
  Speaker 1: Yes, it should.
• 35:49
  Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.
• 35:50
  Speaker 1: I would say men are much, because of the way
• 35:53
  Speaker 1: that their brains work and the way that sexuality functions
• 35:56
  Speaker 1: for them, they are much more capable of compartmentalizing a
• 36:02
  Speaker 1: problem in the relationship and to have sex.
• 36:04
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 36:05
  Speaker 1: Women in general are less able to do that because
• 36:11
  Speaker 1: evolutionarily women should not have to have sex with someone
• 36:22
  Speaker 1: that is emotionally unsafe because then there's the risk of
• 36:24
  Speaker 1: being impregnated by people who are emotionally unsafe and you
• 36:27
  Speaker 1: don't want that. Unless your attachment style is love is pain, generally, okay,
• 36:33
  Speaker 1: fearful avoidance, generally you are going to withdraw sexually to avoid,
• 36:41
  Speaker 1: there's like this evolutionary pull to withdraw sexually from someone
• 36:45
  Speaker 1: who is not emotionally safe. Because you don't want to
• 36:48
  Speaker 1: be impregnated by someone who's not emotionally safe. And then
• 36:52
  Speaker 1: I will get the pushback. I always get the pushback. Well,
• 36:53
  Speaker 1: what about women who have sex on the first date
• 36:56
  Speaker 1: and blah, blah, blah?
• 36:57
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 36:57
  Speaker 1: Do you really think that women who have sex on
• 36:58
  Speaker 1: the first date are emotionally healthy? They're not. And I
• 37:01
  Speaker 1: hate to say it, but oh my gosh, Call Your
• 37:04
  Speaker 1: Daddy just had the most outrageous episode.
• 37:05
  Speaker 2: The Alex Cooper, Megyn Kelly thing. Like that duel is intense.
• 37:11
  Speaker 1: Okay. We just pitched to Call Her Daddy. And I mean,
• 37:14
  Speaker 1: I'm just going to go ahead and say withdraw that.
• 37:16
  Speaker 1: Because we are so far from being aligned. I don't
• 37:18
  Speaker 1: care if they're the number four podcast in the world, whatever.
• 37:21
  Speaker 1: It is the absolute worst advice possible to have sex
• 37:25
  Speaker 1: with somebody on the first date. Because you know what
• 37:27
  Speaker 1: sex can lead to? Diseases and impregnation. And do you
• 37:31
  Speaker 1: want to risk getting a disease or being impregnated by
• 37:33
  Speaker 1: somebody that you do not know?
• 37:35
  Speaker 2: No.
• 37:35
  Speaker 1: And no protection in the world is 100%.
• 37:37
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and that goes for men and women.
• 37:39
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 37:40
  Speaker 2: So why would you ever.
• 37:41
  Speaker 1: Maybe not the impregnation thing.
• 37:42
  Speaker 2: Right, right.
• 37:43
  Speaker 1: I mean, I don't know who you are, but I
• 37:44
  Speaker 1: don't believe that men can have babies. I digress.
• 37:47
  Speaker 2: To spread that type of message as if it's so... Empowering? Yeah.
• 37:52
  Speaker 1: Ew.
• 37:52
  Speaker 2: Ew. I got to agree. Now, I will say, look,
• 37:55
  Speaker 2: I'm not picking sides here, guys. I'm staying neutral. I mean, listen,
• 38:00
  Speaker 2: I'm talking about the Megyn Kelly.
• 38:04
  Speaker 1: Not as people. I'm not picking sides. I agree with
• 38:08
  Speaker 1: everything Megyn Kelly says over.
• 38:10
  Speaker 2: Everything Alex Cooper says. Calm down. She's not a calm person.
• 38:14
  Speaker 2: That's obvious in her content. She's out there.
• 38:16
  Speaker 1: No, but for this debate of, quote, do whatever feels
• 38:20
  Speaker 1: right to you, that is terrible advice. Awful. No, do
• 38:28
  Speaker 1: what is in line with your moral compass.
• 38:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 38:31
  Speaker 1: And- not what is in line with what your body
• 38:35
  Speaker 1: feels like in any given moment. Because you might be
• 38:37
  Speaker 1: on a date with somebody and feel very sexually attracted
• 38:40
  Speaker 1: to them. That doesn't mean it's a good idea to
• 38:42
  Speaker 1: actually have sex with them. And if you look at
• 38:44
  Speaker 1: the science, I'm a science person, right? Science person.
• 38:48
  Speaker 2: You always go back to the science, baby. I always
• 38:49
  Speaker 2: go back to the science. Because it tells the truth.
• 38:52
  Speaker 1: When a man has sex with you, his vasopressin drops.
• 38:56
  Speaker 1: Vasopressin is his guarding hormone, his bonding hormone, his, ooh,
• 39:00
  Speaker 1: I want to protect this person in this connection hormone.
• 39:05
  Speaker 1: If you tank his vasopressin on the first date, don't
• 39:07
  Speaker 1: be surprised if he doesn't call you. And also, men
• 39:10
  Speaker 1: are not stupid. When you give them the whole, I
• 39:13
  Speaker 1: don't usually do this on the first date. They're like, yeah, right.
• 39:17
  Speaker 1: You do it with everybody. It doesn't mean they won't
• 39:18
  Speaker 1: do it, but it also doesn't mean they're going to
• 39:21
  Speaker 1: necessarily respect you And I'm sorry, I don't respect men
• 39:24
  Speaker 1: who try to have sex with me on the first date.
• 39:26
  Speaker 2: Exactly.
• 39:27
  Speaker 1: I don't respect them very much at all because it
• 39:30
  Speaker 1: goes into the, maybe they only want me for a
• 39:32
  Speaker 1: sex category.
• 39:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. And I just can't, I can't.
• 39:36
  Speaker 1: Weed those people out. Yeah.
• 39:38
  Speaker 2: And I can't believe the whole like, okay, well, if
• 39:41
  Speaker 2: he doesn't call me, I don't really give a shit. Bull. Yeah.
• 39:44
  Speaker 2: I don't believe it. That's a cover.
• 39:44
  Speaker 1: I don't believe it either, Alex. I don't believe it either, Alex.
• 39:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I was just playing it. It's such a hard girl.
• 39:50
  Speaker 1: That is such a self-gaslighting thing to hide your own
• 39:54
  Speaker 1: inner shame over what you did because we are not
• 39:56
  Speaker 1: designed that way. You are ignoring decades of evolutionary science.
• 40:02
  Speaker 1: We are a dyadic pair bonding species. You are not
• 40:07
  Speaker 1: fostering a dyadic pair bond by sleeping with somebody on
• 40:10
  Speaker 1: the first date. You aren't. You are giving yourself the
• 40:13
  Speaker 1: worst possible setup for... Hormones to foster a bonding situation
• 40:18
  Speaker 1: from both sides of the male and female hormonal response.
• 40:23
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Sorry. No. You're not. Yeah. The science tells the truth.
• 40:28
  Speaker 1: The science tells the truth. And I mean, gosh, if
• 40:31
  Speaker 1: science is just a discovery of the biblical world, there's
• 40:33
  Speaker 1: a reason that God promotes sex in the confines of
• 40:36
  Speaker 1: marriage because that's when you're most protected. You're most protected
• 40:41
  Speaker 1: in the marriage covenant from the possibilities of sex. Like, yes,
• 40:45
  Speaker 1: no birth control is 100%.
• 40:47
  Speaker 2: None. Zero.
• 40:48
  Speaker 1: Zip. Nada. I don't care if you use multiple forms.
• 40:50
  Speaker 1: Nothing is 100%. I know plenty of people that have
• 40:53
  Speaker 1: gotten pregnant with an IUD. I know plenty of people
• 40:56
  Speaker 1: who have gotten pregnant on the pill. I know plenty
• 40:58
  Speaker 1: of people who have had a condom break and got pregnant.
• 41:01
  Speaker 1: Rachel Ross. Come on. Didn't you watch Friends? I am
• 41:05
  Speaker 1: going to call the condom company.
• 41:09
  Speaker 2: No, Ross.
• 41:10
  Speaker 1: It's on the label.
• 41:11
  Speaker 2: It's on the label. Only, what, 97% affected?
• 41:13
  Speaker 1: Yeah, three out of 100 women. So, you know, there's
• 41:17
  Speaker 1: a reason. Anywho, we really got off on a tangent.
• 41:20
  Speaker 2: Well, that was a good tangent to get off on
• 41:21
  Speaker 2: because I think that it's important to bring up those
• 41:23
  Speaker 2: things that are happening in culture around these issues and
• 41:28
  Speaker 2: to not spread the wrong message.
• 41:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and you talked about attachment all wrong. Yeah. Sorry,
• 41:34
  Speaker 1: Alex Cooper, you did.
• 41:36
  Speaker 2: Anywho.
• 41:36
  Speaker 1: Anywho. This podcast is partially brought to you by Verified.
• 41:41
  Speaker 1: Verified is a relationship registry app where you can go in,
• 41:46
  Speaker 1: register your relationship so that cheating becomes impossible by registering
• 41:51
  Speaker 1: your relationship. And so your relationship can be looked up
• 41:55
  Speaker 1: by anyone. Let's say your partner gives out their number
• 41:58
  Speaker 1: or their email or their social media handle or their picture.
• 42:02
  Speaker 1: Verified can match that description and tell you if that
• 42:06
  Speaker 1: person is in a relationship. So download the Verified app today.
• 42:09
  Speaker 2: I do want to go back a little bit to, obviously,
• 42:14
  Speaker 2: the narcissist. And I think, too, a big sign is,
• 42:19
  Speaker 2: which we've talked about before, I don't think we've ever
• 42:21
  Speaker 2: done a full episode on it, and we need to,
• 42:23
  Speaker 2: is porn. And a high... likelihood of addiction to porn. Yes.
• 42:31
  Speaker 1: And again, hypersexuality is linked to increased pornography use.
• 42:38
  Speaker 2: Duh, right?
• 42:39
  Speaker 1: That's a duh finding. And so if grandiose narcissism is
• 42:43
  Speaker 1: linked with hypersexuality, there could also be a correlation with
• 42:46
  Speaker 1: increased pornography use. Pornography is cheating in my opinion. It is.
• 42:53
  Speaker 1: It's It's a violation. If you are getting sexually turned
• 42:57
  Speaker 1: on by someone that is not your partner, I do
• 42:59
  Speaker 1: not care if they are through a screen or through
• 43:01
  Speaker 1: a hole in the wall or right there in front
• 43:03
  Speaker 1: of your face. Pornography is an honest conversation that has
• 43:07
  Speaker 1: to happen at the beginning of relationships because a lot
• 43:10
  Speaker 1: of people do not consider it cheating. And so what
• 43:12
  Speaker 1: ends up happening is it's never discussed. And then a
• 43:15
  Speaker 1: couple comes in and says, I caught my partner watching porn.
• 43:17
  Speaker 1: And then they have this whole, well, you never said
• 43:20
  Speaker 1: it was wrong. I didn't know it was wrong.
• 43:22
  Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.
• 43:23
  Speaker 1: Sort of story to fall back on. And they're not
• 43:26
  Speaker 1: 100% wrong if you didn't talk about it, but also
• 43:31
  Speaker 1: we just need to start normalizing pornography as cheating. We
• 43:34
  Speaker 1: just do. It's so damaging to the brain. In fact,
• 43:37
  Speaker 1: it's probably some new research is saying it's more damaging
• 43:40
  Speaker 1: than drugs because it fundamentally destroys your normal sexual response.
• 43:47
  Speaker 1: When you start watching pornography, there is research that that
• 43:53
  Speaker 1: suggests that novelty and sex are linked, right? That sexual
• 43:59
  Speaker 1: response is stronger to novelty. And think about how people
• 44:04
  Speaker 1: develop and become sexualized. Your first sexual experience, you're like
• 44:10
  Speaker 1: the most turned on you've ever been a lot of times.
• 44:12
  Speaker 1: If you're, okay, not always, right? But if you're like
• 44:15
  Speaker 1: in a healthy, normal relationship and you're maybe 16 and
• 44:19
  Speaker 1: you've never had a real... sexual experience beyond making out.
• 44:24
  Speaker 1: You're like, your hormones are going crazy.
• 44:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah, they're raging.
• 44:27
  Speaker 1: And part of it is novelty.
• 44:28
  Speaker 2: Right, right.
• 44:29
  Speaker 1: It's novelty. And we've studied this even in social psychology.
• 44:35
  Speaker 1: There's a famous bridge study where we take randomly assigned
• 44:40
  Speaker 1: two people to either be up on a bridge together
• 44:43
  Speaker 1: that's really high and they don't know each other or
• 44:46
  Speaker 1: just sitting next to each other in a park. And
• 44:49
  Speaker 1: we look at how attracted were you to these people?
• 44:52
  Speaker 1: The people on the bridge have higher levels of attraction. Why?
• 44:56
  Speaker 1: Because it's a novel experience already.
• 44:59
  Speaker 2: It's more intense.
• 45:00
  Speaker 1: Yeah, the intensity of the experience is high and you
• 45:02
  Speaker 1: can kind of misattribute that to natural chemistry. So novelty
• 45:06
  Speaker 1: is associated with greater sexual responses. And so what happens
• 45:11
  Speaker 1: with people in pornography is that they have to keep
• 45:14
  Speaker 1: upping the ante. And we've talked about this, right? First,
• 45:16
  Speaker 1: you're just viewing... normal heterosexual sex. Then you have to
• 45:21
  Speaker 1: start going to gay sex. Then you start going to
• 45:23
  Speaker 1: trans sex. Then you have to go to like just
• 45:26
  Speaker 1: weird stuff, right? Just stuff that's just like maybe even
• 45:30
  Speaker 1: sadistic or, you know, it's just really crossing the line.
• 45:35
  Speaker 1: And it's just a really bad road to go down.
• 45:39
  Speaker 1: And what narcissists will do is they will try to
• 45:43
  Speaker 1: tell you that it's normal and you are the problem.
• 45:45
  Speaker 2: Yep.
• 45:45
  Speaker 1: Everybody watches porn. What's your problem?
• 45:47
  Speaker 2: You're not giving me enough sex. That's why I watch porn.
• 45:48
  Speaker 1: You're not giving me enough sex, so I have to
• 45:50
  Speaker 1: watch porn. No, you don't have to watch porn. You
• 45:52
  Speaker 1: can actually pour into the reason why your partner isn't
• 45:55
  Speaker 1: having sex with you and try to get intervention and
• 45:57
  Speaker 1: try to fix the relationship and see if there's something
• 46:00
  Speaker 1: you're doing that is contributing to their sexual shutdown. Or
• 46:04
  Speaker 1: you can have boundaries and say, I've done everything I
• 46:06
  Speaker 1: possibly can to restore the safety in this relationship. And
• 46:09
  Speaker 1: you still are not comfortable with your own sexuality for
• 46:12
  Speaker 1: whatever reason. And so this isn't working for me because
• 46:15
  Speaker 1: sex is a healthy part of a relationship. So now
• 46:18
  Speaker 1: I'm going to leave.
• 46:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah. There you go.
• 46:21
  Speaker 1: Those are some options.
• 46:22
  Speaker 2: She's got the answers, guys. Those are some options.
• 46:25
  Speaker 1: She's got the answers. But I can tell you what
• 46:27
  Speaker 1: the answer never freaking is. You don't give me enough sex,
• 46:30
  Speaker 1: so I turn to pornography.
• 46:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 46:31
  Speaker 1: That's never the right answer. No.
• 46:33
  Speaker 2: No. It's a big, big fluorescent red flag. I want
• 46:36
  Speaker 2: to talk a little bit about hoovering and those in
• 46:39
  Speaker 2: terms of the timeline and the signs to kind of
• 46:41
  Speaker 2: look for because we haven't gotten there. So we talked about.
• 46:45
  Speaker 1: And then when you leave, that's finally when they all
• 46:47
  Speaker 1: of a sudden understand you. They all of a sudden
• 46:49
  Speaker 1: know exactly what they did wrong. If your partner suddenly
• 46:52
  Speaker 1: has magical understanding when you're about to leave, that's a
• 46:57
  Speaker 1: huge sign of narcissism. It's a huge sign. of narcissism.
• 47:02
  Speaker 1: It means they understood the whole time. They were just
• 47:06
  Speaker 1: refusing to give it to you.
• 47:07
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Now they've lost control.
• 47:08
  Speaker 1: Now somebody who's insecurely attached might not, they're going to
• 47:14
  Speaker 1: come to the end of their relationship and be like,
• 47:16
  Speaker 1: teach me how to change.
• 47:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 47:17
  Speaker 1: They're still going to be confused. A narcissist is all
• 47:21
  Speaker 1: of a sudden going to be completely unconfused.
• 47:22
  Speaker 2: Right. Right. I got it all figured out now and
• 47:26
  Speaker 2: I want you back.
• 47:26
  Speaker 1: I understand why my past behavior has been hurtful to you.
• 47:30
  Speaker 1: I understand why when I said I did this, you
• 47:32
  Speaker 1: would react so poorly to that because that really is
• 47:35
  Speaker 1: a huge violation.
• 47:38
  Speaker 2: That's a good sign to look for, for sure.
• 47:41
  Speaker 1: And again, guys, narcissism isn't black and white. No. It's
• 47:44
  Speaker 1: on a scale. Like a five out of 10 is actually,
• 47:47
  Speaker 1: six out of 10 is healthy narcissism.
• 47:50
  Speaker 2: Talk a little bit about that because I know that
• 47:52
  Speaker 2: you've said before, like, We all have some traits of narcissism.
• 47:56
  Speaker 1: That's actually not completely true. Healthy people all have a
• 48:00
  Speaker 1: little bit of narcissistic tendency. You want to be a
• 48:02
  Speaker 1: six out of 10 so you can stand up for yourself.
• 48:04
  Speaker 1: You want to be a six out of 10 so
• 48:05
  Speaker 1: you're a go-getter.
• 48:06
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 48:06
  Speaker 1: You want to be a six out of 10 so
• 48:08
  Speaker 1: you can preserve your self-esteem. Anything less than like a
• 48:12
  Speaker 1: five out of 10 is what's actually called echoism. And
• 48:15
  Speaker 1: that's where people are, they're scared to make space. They're
• 48:19
  Speaker 1: scared to speak up. They're doormats. Mm-hmm. And so anxious
• 48:25
  Speaker 1: preoccupied attachment is a little bit correlated to egoism. Mm-hmm.
• 48:32
  Speaker 1: Because of their lack of boundaries.
• 48:33
  Speaker 2: And it can be, I mean, I can see where
• 48:34
  Speaker 2: it could be just as dangerous. Oh, gosh.
• 48:37
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 48:37
  Speaker 2: I mean, yeah. In terms of self-abandonment.
• 48:39
  Speaker 1: For sure. You're definitely more likely to be a victim
• 48:42
  Speaker 1: if you score higher on egoism.
• 48:43
  Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.
• 48:44
  Speaker 1: So again, you know, give me a six out of 10. Yeah. Yeah.
• 48:48
  Speaker 1: Eight out of 10, FML.
• 48:50
  Speaker 2: Mm-hmm. Right.
• 48:51
  Speaker 1: Nine out of 10, 10 out of 10.
• 48:52
  Speaker 2: Get me the hell out of here.
• 48:53
  Speaker 1: 10 out of 10 is MPD.
• 48:54
  Speaker 2: Kegel broken glass.
• 48:55
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Kegel broken glass and be with a nine out
• 48:57
  Speaker 1: of 10 narcissist any day.
• 48:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah. So what did we, we talked about them becoming
• 49:03
  Speaker 2: your source of truth. Yes. Isolation, hoovering. What did we miss?
• 49:08
  Speaker 1: We talked about sexuality. We talked about manipulating reality and gaslighting.
• 49:12
  Speaker 1: I would say a big one is devaluation disguised as honesty.
• 49:17
  Speaker 1: I'm just trying to be honest with you. Like a
• 49:23
  Speaker 1: loving person who sees you sabotaging yourself is gonna come
• 49:31
  Speaker 1: to you and go, hey, I love you and I
• 49:34
  Speaker 1: care about you. And I'm really worried that this is
• 49:37
  Speaker 1: affecting you negatively. And I just want the best for you.
• 49:44
  Speaker 1: A narcissist is going to say a sharp comment without
• 49:49
  Speaker 1: that sort of loving buildup. Well, you're not great at
• 49:55
  Speaker 1: house cleaning. And it's going to be like, you can't
• 50:00
  Speaker 1: even blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then when you
• 50:02
  Speaker 1: say something, it's like, well, I'm just trying to be honest.
• 50:05
  Speaker 1: There's that, I'm just trying to be honest sort of,
• 50:08
  Speaker 1: backlash there's not this gentle care of i care about
• 50:12
  Speaker 1: you like curiosity and i'm curious yeah where this could
• 50:14
  Speaker 1: be coming from and i see that it's that it's
• 50:17
  Speaker 1: hurting you there's not this loving build-up it's usually a
• 50:21
  Speaker 1: defense after they've thrown out something hurtful right yeah i'm
• 50:26
  Speaker 1: just trying to be honest it's just a degrade on
• 50:28
  Speaker 1: top you know you've really let yourself go i'm just
• 50:30
  Speaker 1: trying to be honest oh my gosh this was so
• 50:32
  Speaker 1: funny uh donald and i were riding in the car
• 50:37
  Speaker 1: My 15-year-old's boyfriend got her license, which means they can
• 50:41
  Speaker 1: go out to eat all the time, right? And she
• 50:46
  Speaker 1: texts me, having eaten all day, we're stopping at Taco Bell.
• 50:51
  Speaker 1: So I'm trying to figure out how to respond to this, right?
• 50:54
  Speaker 1: Because I don't want her to ever think she needs
• 50:58
  Speaker 1: to worry necessarily about her weight because of how she looks,
• 51:01
  Speaker 1: but I want her to make Good choices, like not
• 51:04
  Speaker 1: eating all day is not a good choice for your body.
• 51:07
  Speaker 1: Food is fuel.
• 51:09
  Speaker 2: So my.
• 51:11
  Speaker 1: Husband and I are trying to figure out how can
• 51:13
  Speaker 1: we say something loving about you need to nourish your body.
• 51:17
  Speaker 1: Don't wait to eat all day. You're an athlete. I
• 51:20
  Speaker 1: don't want you to do that to your blood sugar, right?
• 51:24
  Speaker 1: Because it is easy as a teenage girl to not
• 51:26
  Speaker 1: eat all day and then pig out on Taco Bell.
• 51:29
  Speaker 2: It's easy for me to do that at 42.
• 51:32
  Speaker 1: It's just not healthy overall. And so he was like, well,
• 51:36
  Speaker 1: what would I say to you if you did that?
• 51:39
  Speaker 1: And it was becoming a habit. He's like, actually, I'd
• 51:41
  Speaker 1: probably say absolutely nothing. He'd be like, okay, babe, enjoy
• 51:44
  Speaker 1: your Taco Bell, right? Because he wouldn't dare say that.
• 51:49
  Speaker 1: I mean, he would be so worried about hurting my feelings.
• 51:53
  Speaker 1: A narcissist is worried about how you represent them. So
• 51:57
  Speaker 1: if you get fat, it looks bad on them. They're
• 52:01
  Speaker 1: not concerned about whether you're healthy. They're not concerned about
• 52:04
  Speaker 1: whether you're treating your body kindly and giving yourself enough
• 52:07
  Speaker 1: fuel to They're not worried about that. They're worried about
• 52:10
  Speaker 1: how are other people going to perceive you next to me?
• 52:15
  Speaker 1: And if that perception isn't what I want it to be,
• 52:18
  Speaker 1: then you need to do something about that.
• 52:21
  Speaker 2: And the irony is most people sometimes with narcissists, Eat
• 52:26
  Speaker 2: a lot. Like I was fatter than I've ever been.
• 52:28
  Speaker 1: I was the fattest I had ever been in my
• 52:29
  Speaker 1: entire life because food is one thing that will always
• 52:33
  Speaker 1: deliver that serotonin. Food never freaking lets you down.
• 52:36
  Speaker 2: It never does.
• 52:36
  Speaker 1: And when everything in your life is shit. Is shit.
• 52:40
  Speaker 1: You just eat for comfort. And you are so upset.
• 52:42
  Speaker 1: Food is the predictable serotonin relief. Same thing with drugs.
• 52:47
  Speaker 1: Drugs give you serotonin. And so yes, you will be
• 52:51
  Speaker 1: relying on unhealthy coping tools when you're with the narcissist
• 52:55
  Speaker 1: And then you getting fat just makes the narcissist incredibly
• 52:57
  Speaker 1: mad because, again, they're worried about how do you look
• 53:02
  Speaker 1: next to me. And that is a lot of times
• 53:04
  Speaker 1: when they start cheating on you.
• 53:06
  Speaker 2: There's a reason people have that glow up after they
• 53:08
  Speaker 2: get out of.
• 53:08
  Speaker 1: The relationship with the narcissist. I need to do a
• 53:12
  Speaker 1: video that's like if your partner completely glows up after
• 53:18
  Speaker 1: the relationship ends, it might be because you were the problem.
• 53:21
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah. We've got to show some pictures of us
• 53:23
  Speaker 2: back in the day. Oh, let's do that.
• 53:26
  Speaker 1: Let's do that. Let's show our audience what we looked
• 53:30
  Speaker 1: like when we were.
• 53:32
  Speaker 2: Totally different people.
• 53:34
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 53:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah, when we were in bad relationships and not taking
• 53:38
  Speaker 2: care of ourselves and not taking care of our minds.
• 53:40
  Speaker 1: I just laughed so hard when Donald was like, he'd
• 53:42
  Speaker 1: be like, enjoy.
• 53:43
  Speaker 2: Your Taco Bell. Not saying a word.
• 53:46
  Speaker 1: I know better. No freaking way am I going to
• 53:49
  Speaker 1: come down on you for your weight.
• 53:50
  Speaker 2: Josh would be the same way. Josh would be like, no,
• 53:52
  Speaker 2: you need... Well, I take that back. Josh usually.
• 53:55
  Speaker 1: He's like, I would probably just start really trying to
• 53:57
  Speaker 1: cook healthy meals and make healthy snacks available for you.
• 54:00
  Speaker 1: That's what I would do instead of probably... Being like,
• 54:04
  Speaker 1: you shouldn't eat that.
• 54:05
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Josh would definitely speak up.
• 54:07
  Speaker 1: He'd be like, let's go to the gym. I want
• 54:09
  Speaker 1: to hit on a couple of points before we end
• 54:12
  Speaker 1: this podcast. One is entitlement and double standards. I think
• 54:15
  Speaker 1: that is probably one of the most significant red flags.
• 54:19
  Speaker 1: And as a fearful avoidant, former fearful avoidant, fearful avoidants
• 54:24
  Speaker 1: are extremely sensitive to double standards. Like extremely sensitive to
• 54:28
  Speaker 1: justice and fairness and double standards.
• 54:29
  Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.
• 54:30
  Speaker 1: And they're also the most likely to end up with narcissists.
• 54:32
  Speaker 1: But it's like their needs, emotions, mistakes, privacy, and boundaries
• 54:37
  Speaker 1: receive protections that yours do not. They can disappear with
• 54:42
  Speaker 1: friends without checking in because they're an adult and because
• 54:45
  Speaker 1: you're not entitled to always know where they're at. But
• 54:48
  Speaker 1: if you don't answer a phone call, it's a huge problem.
• 54:51
  Speaker 1: That's disrespectful. And you obviously don't care about them. So
• 54:55
  Speaker 1: complete double standards. They're allowed to do things in the
• 54:57
  Speaker 1: relationship and you are not. Just like They're allowed to
• 55:00
  Speaker 1: cheat on you, but you're not. They're allowed to disappear,
• 55:02
  Speaker 1: and you're not. They're allowed to spend a ton of money,
• 55:08
  Speaker 1: but you're not. No. Things have to be fair across.
• 55:13
  Speaker 1: They do. They have to be fair. The rules apply
• 55:16
  Speaker 1: the same to everybody in a relationship, and if they don't,
• 55:18
  Speaker 1: it's a problem. Triangulation, this is a huge one. I
• 55:22
  Speaker 1: hate it. It happens to me all of the time.
• 55:25
  Speaker 1: It is a red flag. Nobody in a relationship should go, Well,
• 55:29
  Speaker 1: you're the problem, and here's all the people that agree
• 55:30
  Speaker 1: with that. First of all, why are you talking about
• 55:33
  Speaker 1: your partner to lots of other people? You shouldn't be.
• 55:37
  Speaker 1: Take it to a neutral third party. You need to
• 55:40
  Speaker 1: not talk about your relationship to people outside of your relationship.
• 55:44
  Speaker 1: And a lot of people give me hate for this
• 55:45
  Speaker 1: because they're like, well, how are you supposed to get
• 55:46
  Speaker 1: help from abuse? Well, yeah, okay. If you go to
• 55:51
  Speaker 1: a neutral third party, okay, go to– if you have Medicaid,
• 55:56
  Speaker 1: if you have insurance– You can go see a therapist
• 55:59
  Speaker 1: for $ 0 or $ 20. Make an appointment with a therapist
• 56:03
  Speaker 1: and go, these are the behaviors that are happening. We're
• 56:06
  Speaker 1: a coach, right? Come to me. Come to Coach Elizabeth.
• 56:09
  Speaker 1: Come to Coach Amy and go, is this abusive? And
• 56:11
  Speaker 1: we will say yes or no. We will say yes
• 56:13
  Speaker 1: or no. I have zero problem telling people this is
• 56:16
  Speaker 1: abuse and you should leave. A lot of people just
• 56:19
  Speaker 1: don't do that because they're afraid of what they're going
• 56:21
  Speaker 1: to hear.
• 56:21
  Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.
• 56:22
  Speaker 1: But triangulation is some outside party agrees with them that
• 56:25
  Speaker 1: you're the problem. So I told this to my best
• 56:27
  Speaker 1: friend and they think you're the problem. I told this
• 56:30
  Speaker 1: to this therapist I go to and they think you're
• 56:33
  Speaker 1: the problem.
• 56:34
  Speaker 2: Happens all the time.
• 56:35
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you don't know. You don't know. And why are
• 56:38
  Speaker 1: you even talking to some random third party that is
• 56:42
  Speaker 1: not a therapist? And if their therapist really does think
• 56:44
  Speaker 1: you're a problem, say, I would love to have a
• 56:45
  Speaker 1: joint session. Let's have a joint session. And let me
• 56:48
  Speaker 1: get what they really said, right? Because maybe they didn't.
• 56:52
  Speaker 1: say you were the problem at all.
• 56:53
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 56:53
  Speaker 1: You don't know that.
• 56:54
  Speaker 2: I mean, that's just their narrative.
• 56:54
  Speaker 1: If they're narcissistic, they're probably lying.
• 56:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. Their narrative is usually very different.
• 56:59
  Speaker 1: And then what I want to say is regardless if
• 57:01
  Speaker 1: you think your partner is a narcissist, accountability without change
• 57:05
  Speaker 1: inherently is a manipulation. And some people just don't have
• 57:11
  Speaker 1: the skills and the tools to change some of their
• 57:13
  Speaker 1: hurtful behaviors. And that's one thing. But narcissists will never
• 57:17
  Speaker 1: have the skills and tools to change. And so I get,
• 57:19
  Speaker 1: that's why people want to know, are they a narcissist?
• 57:21
  Speaker 1: Are they not? But ultimately, if they are not open
• 57:24
  Speaker 1: to intervention or if you've tried a million interventions and
• 57:27
  Speaker 1: they don't work, you might be dealing with a narcissist.
• 57:30
  Speaker 1: No intervention is going to work with a narcissist. And
• 57:34
  Speaker 1: I can promise you what won't work, explaining to them
• 57:37
  Speaker 1: for the millionth time why their behavior is hurtful. That's
• 57:40
  Speaker 1: not going to work.
• 57:41
  Speaker 2: Or staying. Yeah.
• 57:43
  Speaker 1: When you stay, all you're teaching them is that they
• 57:45
  Speaker 1: can treat you like this. We teach people how to
• 57:47
  Speaker 1: treat us and you are giving them nothing but the
• 57:50
  Speaker 1: message that they can keep doing whatever they're doing and
• 57:52
  Speaker 1: you will always be there.
• 57:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah. And you're going to stay and be really miserable. Yeah.
• 57:57
  Speaker 1: So their behavior at some point needs to be enough.
• 58:03
  Speaker 1: Stop trying to understand them and start setting boundaries.
• 58:06
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Which, you know, next week, guys, we're going to
• 58:10
  Speaker 2: talk about healing from narcissistic abuse. So I definitely want
• 58:14
  Speaker 2: you all to stay tuned.
• 58:16
  Speaker 1: In the next part of the series, we're going to
• 58:17
  Speaker 1: talk about what do you do? How do you get
• 58:19
  Speaker 1: out of this trauma bond if you're addicted, if you
• 58:22
  Speaker 1: have a life with them, if you're scared as hell?
• 58:24
  Speaker 1: I've been there. I get it. And I want to
• 58:26
  Speaker 1: walk you through that. So tune in next.
• 58:28
  Speaker 2: Week for sure.
• 58:29
  Speaker 1: Download this episode also. Thank you.
• 58:30
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 58:32
  Speaker 1: We love you so much.
• 58:32
  Speaker 2: Yeah, we do. It's not going to be easy, of course.
• 58:35
  Speaker 2: It never is. And we totally... we totally sympathize with that.
• 58:39
  Speaker 2: We know how hard it is to get out.
• 58:40
  Speaker 1: Extremely hard. And I've got you.
• 58:42
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 58:43
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 58:44
  Speaker 2: She's got you. Got you. Yes. Yes. She's got you.
• 58:47
  Speaker 1: There's plenty of female narcissists.
• 58:49
  Speaker 2: Plenty. Oh yeah, absolutely. So, um, but guys, thank you
• 58:52
  Speaker 2: for tuning in. We love you all so much. Please
• 58:54
  Speaker 2: download this episode. And of course you can always go
• 58:58
  Speaker 2: to dr. Sarah Hensley.com and use code love doc 27
• 59:02
  Speaker 2: for 27% off any of her services, because that is
• 59:05
  Speaker 2: a special code for each and every single one of you.
• 59:09
  Speaker 1: And we love seeing that code come in. I am
• 59:11
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• 59:15
  Speaker 1: loyal listener and you deserve it.
• 59:17
  Speaker 2: And we see it a lot. So thank you guys
• 59:18
  Speaker 2: so much. We love you all. Please continue to tune in. Like, subscribe.
• 59:22
  Speaker 2: If you are looking for free resources, go to the website.
• 59:25
  Speaker 2: Click on free resources.
• 59:26
  Speaker 1: Or send us a message.
• 59:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah, send us a message.
• 59:28
  Speaker 1: Send us a message. You can always text our team
• 59:30
  Speaker 1: at 502-427-6945. I'll say it.
• 59:36
  Speaker 2: Again. 502-427-6945.
• 59:37
  Speaker 1: I have assistant coaches that monitor that line. And they
• 59:40
  Speaker 1: are happy to walk you through. 24-7. We have assistant
• 59:44
  Speaker 1: coaches that are there for you. Are you in a
• 59:46
  Speaker 1: crisis moment? As in, you have absolutely no idea what
• 59:50
  Speaker 1: to do next.
• 59:51
  Speaker 2: Text us.
• 59:52
  Speaker 1: We can't always create a sacred coaching space, but we'll
• 59:55
  Speaker 1: tell you like, hey, this goes into the sacred coaching
• 59:58
  Speaker 1: space and we're going to need to refer you on
• 1:00:00
  Speaker 1: to one of the coaches. This is beyond what an
• 1:00:02
  Speaker 1: assistant coach will do. but it can at least help
• 1:00:05
  Speaker 1: point you in the right direction.
• 1:00:06
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and it opens up some more availability. Like if
• 1:00:09
  Speaker 2: you're looking to get in sooner with Dr. Hensley or
• 1:00:11
  Speaker 2: Coach Elizabeth or Coach Amy, those assistant coaches can reach
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 2: out to those coaches and get a time slot maybe
• 1:00:18
  Speaker 2: a little sooner for you if it is a crisis situation.
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 2: So just know that too. So please, guys, again, continue
• 1:00:23
  Speaker 2: to tune in, like, subscribe, leave us a comment. And
• 1:00:26
  Speaker 2: until next time, peace, love, and perspective.