Latest / Harder Than Life / 124: How Failure Builds Resilience | Lessons From Losing It All w/ Michael E. Jordan

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124: How Failure Builds Resilience | Lessons From Losing It All w/ Michael E. Jordan · Harder Than Life

• 0:07
  I'm Kelly Siegel, and this is Harder Than Life, a podcast about self-love, self-awareness, business, and health. We tell outrageous stories and boil everything down to simple, practical advice you can start using today. Let's get living.
• 0:23
  Michael E. Jordan is the founder and CEO of Unreal, U-N-R-L, the brand for athletes. It's a premium lifestyle and performance apparel brand that seamlessly merges high-quality materials with timeless, versatile styles.
• 0:39
  A visionary entrepreneur, Michael has built Unreal into a brand beloved by athletes, professionals, and style-conscious individuals who value both comfort and sophistication. His leadership and commitment to sustainable practices, quality craftsmanship, and community impact have made Unreal a household name.
• 1:00
  With a deep passion for fashion and innovation, Michael continues to push boundaries, elevating their brand to new heights. Beyond business, Michael is a Christian father, husband, leader, and philanthropist, embodying the core values that fuel his success. Welcome to the A Harder in a Life show, my friend. Thanks for having me. What an intro. I appreciate that. I don't know who writes that, but give him a high five for me.
• 1:27
  I met you and I got to hear all these stories and I literally want to replay that conversation for our audience. It was literally the harder than life nation story. All I want to do is replay that dinner conversation that I had when I met you. And believe me.
• 1:45
  harder than the life nationers. We literally, there are no coincidences. I met this gentleman, we chatted, he sat at the same table for a day and a half with me. And then we tried to connect. We didn't. And I ended up running into the Delta lounge. And then we really connected, found out we had homes very close to each other that are vacation homes. There are no coincidences. This gentleman is meant to be in my life and his story is phenomenal. I'm going to share it with you.
• 2:11
  What inspired you to start Unreal? And what was your vision of when you launched? But get into the nitty-gritty of how it started. You got screwed over and stopped. I'm going to keep asking you those questions.
• 2:24
  Yeah, well, thank you. First and foremost, thanks for having me on. I'm honored to be here. And, you know, I think that, you know, hopefully my story resonates with some guys that are grinders and, you know, maybe the underdog and, you know, seeking some inspiration and motivation on their journey. You know, mine is kind of an unorthodox approach to getting into this, you know, fashion world. And if you asked me as a
• 2:50
  You know, I don't know, 15 year old kid, if I was going to grow up and be a fashion designer, I would have laughed at you. Um, but here I am and, and, uh, I'm so thankful and grateful for, for the position that I'm in now. It's, it's been a windy, bumpy road to get to where we are now.
• 3:06
  Um, but I wouldn't trade any of it, man. That's the, that's the good stuff. All the, uh, school of hard knocks moments that you go through on this journey. And, you know, to answer your question, where did the inspiration come from? I was a young kid. Um, I think I was about seven years old. I might have to check the math on that. But when the Minnesota wild came to town, um, I grew up in a suburb of St. Paul, Minnesota, um, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh,
• 3:30
  and grew up playing hockey so when this team came to town i was i was you know eyes glued to the television and when they it was this big hype about what are they going to do with the logo and the team name because there was all this chatter about you know bringing the north stars back and then there was a whole bunch of options presented you know i remember one of them was the northern lights and that was kind of cool it was like in the vikings purple and yellow colors and
• 3:55
  they landed on the Minnesota wild. And when I looked at that logo and saw the intricate detail in that, you know, you look at it at first, you're like, is that a bear? Is it, you know, what is that? And then there's all this wilderness scenery within a sports team logo. I thought, Holy smokes. You know, I guess that was when I realized that I have a really high level of attention to detail and it really inspired me. I thought to myself as a young kid, I want to do that when I grow up, I want to make or design logos like this. And so yeah.
• 4:23
  It was probably that day I went and started Googling, and this is back in the day when you had to unplug the landline phone and hook it into a big honking computer to get on the internet 30 minutes later. But I started researching how are logos designed and what is the graphic design software? And I obviously find Adobe and get a trial run of the creative suites and just started Googling.
• 4:49
  you know, diving in headfirst and trying to do or learn different tutorials using YouTube videos that, you know, experts are kind of giving you walkthroughs and that passion really, um, just continue to evolve for, for, you know, I guess decades now I'm still, still a nerd about that. Um, but the graphic design is where it started and then it quickly led to web design. I'm kind of a never satisfied type of human. I'm sure you're the same way. Um, but it turns
• 5:19
  I picked up a job caddying at a local country club and I'd ride my bike there or get dropped off early in the mornings and, and, uh, try to get a loop. And really that was, uh, it was a nice little, you know,
• 5:33
  early teenager, you know, summer job. But the real reason I was there is because it was a networking event for me. I was getting assigned to a business owner's golf bag and spending four or five hours with them every single day. And so I'm meeting all these business owners, these entrepreneurs, and yeah, I'd make 40 or 50 bucks in the day on carrying their golf bag, but I also had an opportunity to pitch them on redoing their website or improving, you know, rebranding their company.
• 6:03
  And so the, the caddy was a side hustle. It opened the door to get a lot of business, uh, selling websites and graphic services. So, um, so I started doing that when I was 13, I launched my first little mini business, we'll call it. It wasn't even a legitimate, you know, registered LLC or anything, but it was, uh, I think it was just designs by MJ or something like that. And, and so, um,
• 6:28
  Started to get pretty good at it. You know, it was just trial and error and, you know, a lot of, you know, fake websites or just, you know, making logos for friends for free and doing these, you know, getting my reps and doing these test projects and fine tuning my craft as bad weds. And then, you know, one guy taps me, you know, a month later after I did his website logo and said, Hey. Hey.
• 6:50
  you know, you did all my branding elements. Can you do some polos and hats? We're going out to a trade show. We need some corporate gear. And I thought, you know, I've never really done that, but I'll figure it out. Yeah, I'll...
• 7:02
  Give me a few weeks. And so I started making phone calls and I find the local embroidery guy in my hometown who did all the football and hockey team uniforms or whatever. Coop is his name. And so Coop and I meet where I'm 16 years old at the time. And he's got the little kind of mom's basement screen print embroidery set up going on. And I shouldn't say mom's basement. I mean, it's his house. He's a 40-year-old man. Yeah.
• 7:32
  And he and his wife are running this, what I meant to say is mom and pop shop style, you know, embroidery, you know, business. And so he, he shows me this catalog and there's all these blank generic polos and hats. And so we, we picked out a couple and ran the order. And when I felt that physical product in my hand, the tangible product,
• 7:53
  version of, uh, you know, the logo is now stitched on a shirt that was once just an idea in my head. And I went through all these iterations, you know, something just kind of clicked for me. And I just got the bug at that moment, I think, and said, all right, I'm going to go a little further on this. And it didn't take long till I realized I'm not very satisfied with these generic blank, uh, products that everybody can get. I'm, you know, I'm, I'm just going to make my own shirt and use my own fabric and my own fit. How hard could it be? Yeah.
• 8:22
  And, uh, well, there's a reason people go to school for four plus years to figure that out, but you know, I just went for it and started cutting up sweatshirts and measuring them. And, you know, again, going into using the worldwide web is, uh, I, I, you know, I'm
• 8:38
  bachelor's degree, I guess, but, um, just learning from these tutorials that exist on the internet. And it's, it's amazing how far you can go if you have a little bit of motivation and, you know, today's day and age, it's so much easier with the level of tools and accessibility to these types of videos and, and, you know, instruction manuals, um, that exist online. You can pretty much learn how to do anything you need to do. So that's how it really all got started.
• 9:02
  I was going to say, let's stop there before you get into the adversity, because I want to ask, what was fueling you for that? Like, you're a young man. What fueled you? Just this burning desire to build something and build something great. You know, I always had that. And I still kind of believe it to this day that it didn't need to be a clothing brand. I think that was my first choice. I would have these visions, you know, like.
• 9:29
  I would go to, if I'd go to a retail store or a mall or whatever and see the way that these really cool brands are putting the whole display together from the way the product looks and feels to the hang tags and their logo and all the point of purchase displays that surround that. I just always, I don't know, that always fascinated me and seeing that. And so I would daydream as a kid about, you know.
• 9:53
  creating my own brand and seeing it come to life. And then I think what really was in my head was this vision of seeing people walking around the streets wearing my stuff that I had created. And it wasn't a, hey, look at me type of, I can't wait to get to that point. So I get all the accolades. It was more just...
• 10:13
  seeing that other people appreciate the work you're doing and, and you don't even need to tell them who you are. And so that, that is still true to this day. I get such a kick out of seeing people walking around wearing my stuff. Like I was at a coffee shop with my wife this morning and,
• 10:29
  Um, guy walks in behind us and he's wearing an unreal hoodie and you know, I'm not wearing a hoodie right now wearing our t-shirt, which is a little more subtle, but we, we put our logo up on the left shoulder seam and it's a little bit unique or it was at least there's a lot of people doing it now. It seems like, but, um, it's, it's recognizable when you see somebody walking down the street and you see the four letters, um, kind of staring back at you and.
• 10:51
  So a guy walks in the coffee shop behind us and my wife just kind of nudges me. And rather, I think I'm not sure I get more of a rise out of it than she does. She thinks I'm just being, I don't know, cocky or something, but no, I just, it's, it's cool. And you know, my mind just starts to wonder, like, how, how did they hear about us? Where did they find it? And what do they think of it? And I'm not one to go up and.
• 11:14
  tell somebody who I am very often, every once in a while, if the conversation strikes up, I'll let them know usually at the end, but try to get some good candid feedback on the front end before I do that. So I don't know, man, I just think seeing people appreciate the work is what really drove me and motivated me to get going. And that vision and passion and motivation has really evolved over time. And if I mean...
• 11:37
  Today, it's way different. It's how do I make the biggest impact? You know, I went through a bit of a dark phase too when I kind of had, felt like I kind of had the world in the palm of my hands when I was probably 25 years old or maybe a little younger. But the business was rolling and it was doing really good. And I'm this single bachelor. I've got, you know, a condo downtown and it's amazing.
• 11:59
  You'd think I'd be happy as a clam. I've got a skyway access to the office, and we've got a downtown street-level office, big glass windows. But for some reason, I couldn't really put my finger on it. I would come home at night, and for...
• 12:13
  pretty much like a three month season. I was feeling what I didn't really know was at the time, but depression. And I was, it was, um, I'd sit down on the couch and just kind of, you know, think, why am I doing this? You know, what, what is the, I feel like I've been, I've been given some talents and a lot of drive and, you know, God has blessed me with all these things, but why am I here just to be the best t-shirt designer in the world? Like that doesn't
• 12:43
  had a lot of conversations with, you know, wise mentors such as yourself and, you know, not quite guys at your caliber or the Ed My Lads back then, but, you know, people that I could access and tap on for advice. And it started to click to me that, you know, this is about building a platform and then being able to leverage that platform to make an impact in the
• 13:10
  you know, athletes. And I'm often talking about one of our guys, Adam Thielen, he's a wide receiver for Carolina. And he and I share the same kind of mentality. It's, he wasn't put on this earth to catch footballs on Sunday. He was, he was put on this earth to help, help underprivileged kids reach their potential and give kids a chance that maybe never otherwise would have had one. But he gets to do that because he can catch a lot of footballs and he's really good at it.
• 13:34
  And so I think it's very similar for me. You know, we have a philanthropic approach to our business. We don't shout it from the mountaintops, but we have a, well, 10% of the profits that we bring in every year, we donate. And, you know, different charitable causes and, you know, people that need that support. And that's probably the coolest part of the business, I think, and really what drives me today.
• 14:00
  is uh is being able to to leverage this platform to make make an impact in the lives of people who really need it that's beautiful uh it just dawned on me why you do what you do you're doing it for love uh so if you remember at the same event that we that we met at we tie significance in love the more significant i become the more love i get how was your upbringing as a child
• 14:26
  Yeah. I mean, you're kind of hitting the nail on the head. I think that, you know, well, I grew up with a very hard-nosed dad that was a construction worker and, you know, he wasn't too fond of the idea of his son becoming a fashion designer. I will tell you that. Uh, my older brother took over his, his construction, uh, operation. And so it was, uh,
• 14:47
  Yeah, that's my son, Andrew. He's sharp. He's tough. He's taken over the construction business. And here's Michael. He thinks he's going to be a fashion designer, kind of eye roll. And there's a lot of – that really isn't –
• 15:04
  that just gives you a snippet of it, but it was, I had a dad that really loved me and a mom that really loves me. And, um, or they both are just phenomenal people. I think there's a undertone of criticism that, um, you know, came from my father and, and I, I carry it today, you know, and I, and it's one of the biggest weaknesses I think that I possess is just being overly critical about, um,
• 15:29
  things not being done the way you expect them to be done or, or, you know, I'm sure you can relate as a business owner yourself. Right. But, um, uh, yeah, I definitely was always seeking approval from, from my father and, uh, you know, to give you one more visual here, I played hockey and I was a goalie. So I'm in the net and, you know, playing at a high level in Minnesota, which is kind of the state of hockey and not kind of, it is, it's, it's very, very elite. It's like Texas
• 15:59
  And so my dad would stand right behind my net, you know, just off to the side a little bit, kind of scowl on his face, arms crossed, and just no emotion. If I make the biggest save of the year, I get a head nod. Just that was the approval. And if I let in a goal that I shouldn't have, I get a just disgusted head shake, you know, and I just, that still is in my head today quite a bit. But, you know, and I think it's, I think it's done well.
• 16:28
  Multiple things to shape my life, though. I think it's done, you know, maybe it's carried through to me and I, you know, am still working on how do I be more gentle and encouraging with my staff, with my wife, my kid. Yeah.
• 16:45
  You know, I think that's something I struggle with and it doesn't feel natural to me, but I think it is also a big reason why I'm here today is because, you know, it's, it's like you put enough pressure on the coal, it turns into a diamond kind of a thing, right? You, you.
• 17:01
  I was trying to meet expectations throughout my adolescence so much that, you know, I think it's, it's pushed me to keep going farther and farther in my, my business career. And, you know, I think probably even more than that, it's just passion and being, you know, very driven and, and loving what I do. I was on a call with our other buddy, Jordan Montgomery this morning and, you know,
• 17:24
  He said to me something I haven't heard before, and I don't see myself like this, but he said, you know, I deal with all type A entrepreneurs and leaders in the world. And you're, if not, I mean, you're among, if not the most driven of anyone I deal with, you're not type A, you're type AAA. And I thought, what?
• 17:42
  I don't feel like I'm like overly aggressive by any, I think, I don't know why I associate type A with aggressiveness, but I think that I'm always trying to strive to push myself and get to the next level and prove to myself that I can do things. But yeah, I think, you know, what I don't want to do here though is, is,
• 18:05
  promote a, um, a negative connotation around my upbringing. I had a great upbringing. Um, you know, there was, there was those, those elements of it that, uh, you know, stick with me to this day, but there's also so many positive ones. And, you know, my dad is such a loving guy and has a heart of gold, wants to get through that tough outer shell. Um, yeah.
• 18:26
  and he really made a big pivotal change in his life and, and found the Lord when I was, uh, you know, in my early to mid teens, somewhere around 15 or so. Um, so he's, uh, yeah, he's a work in progress just like we all are. And, uh, he, but he's, he's, I'm so proud of the guy that he has become and, uh, the transformation that he's made and,
• 18:46
  you know my wife and i were just talking about it yesterday the the woman that my mom is and and just how much kudos we need to give to her because she raised two uh two you know i would i don't like to call myself a fine young man but you know she raised two good ones and uh um she uh and she did a lot of it you know carried the the
• 19:10
  lion's share of the, of the load and doing that. And, uh, you know, it was a single mom, uh, they had divorced at that time, mid teen years. And so, um, yeah, she really, she really did such a heroic, uh, exceptional job, uh, raising us. So, um, yeah, great upbringing, honestly, but I can see where would some of those tendencies go or come from rather. Thank you for sharing that with me. And I, as you were saying that, my heart was fluttering because now I know why we're friends.
• 19:38
  You said something that my heart just broke and we're going to get into it. You called something that is your... You called it a weakness. And it really... It's just who you are and what you were taught. How old are you again? 32? 31. You're 31 years old. Company's worth... Is it public knowledge how much this company's worth or no? Can they Google it and find out how much? I don't think Google would give you an accurate answer. Okay. He's worth millions of dollars, people. I've been offered nine figures, but...
• 20:08
  By all means, financially successful. Do you believe, the quick answer, do you believe you're successful? Yeah.
• 20:17
  Ooh, it took, you answered that pretty quick. There's times. So what I love about you is that you're, you're accelerating what I needed to a long time to learn. Sure. I don't think I became successful in my own eyes because everybody's going to think of this because you, the way you said it, I want to point that out. The way you said it, my biggest weakness, I wrote it down is criticism. And it took me for years that having high standards is not a weakness. Yeah.
• 20:47
  But it is if you're coming at it from a place of fear. Does that make sense? Yeah, it does. And I think that although those two things are correlated, make no mistake, I'm not saying having high standards is my weakness. That might be my biggest strength. But it's so directly correlated to being overly critical with people around you. And...
• 21:08
  Even being critical with people around you is not a weakness in itself. I mean, I think there's different approaches to getting the most out of people. There's the tough approach of instill fear in people, and I think that's how I was raised. And that's what I often convey, and I don't like that approach as much as I really look up to the guys who are just –
• 21:35
  so positive with people all the time, even when the results don't meet their expectation. But they have a just like, a good example is Deion Sanders, right? He's so loving with his kids and so encouraging with the guys that are playing football for him.
• 21:51
  but he's also so direct and so tough. And I just like envy that skillset and that having that really clear balance of the two. So I think there's, there's ways to really utilize the, I guess the tendency of being or of having high expectations and high standards rather and doing it in a much more positive, empowering way than the way that I've done it and been kind of,
• 22:19
  naturally doing it my whole career. So I've, that's, that's one of the biggest things I'm working on. That's, that's why I have a business and life coach in Jordan Montgomery. And that's, that's why I, you know, hang with guys like you who, you know, we're always trying to work on different things. And, and, uh, when you get to this, uh,
• 22:37
  you know, a circle of, you know, the guys like you, Kelly, and who we were all with in that event with Ed Milet and John Gordon, you get so much wisdom so quickly. And some of those guys are just world-class experts at exactly the thing I'm not good at. And conversely, you know, maybe I'm an expert in some areas that they're not, and we can, you know, compound and share knowledge of an iron sharpens iron, right? So yeah, it's surrounding yourself with people who
• 23:07
  better than you is, is kind of the idea and, and being a student of the game, right? Like I've not done just because I've achieved success and I've, I've financially, you know, quote unquote made it. I think there's a, there's a whole nother level and, um, I'm there's, there's many levels that I'm still working towards. Right. And it's, it's not just business. It's how I, how I communicate
• 23:37
  how I love them and treat them at home is really important to me. You wouldn't believe the depth of work and time and energy I'm putting into trying to retrain myself to do that better. And so, yeah, there's always challenges at hand, right? I mean, I'm dealing with a whole pile of adversity right now on the business front, just kind of small fires that happen because –
• 24:03
  the messages aren't delivered and different things that, you know, they're not going to, they're not going to, the house isn't going to burn down, but if we don't fix it, it will. And so I'm going through a pile of it right now and it's, it's, that's never going to change. I, you know, I feel like I chased this utopian vision in my head of like, well, once we just get every process fine-tuned and every, every right person in the right seat, then I'll be, you know,
• 24:28
  able to just slow down a little bit and take a breath and i don't i i think i dream about that but then i also realize that is just you could keep chasing it's a great north star to go after but you're never gonna quite get there um there's just always another level right and always a new challenge ahead i'm reminded that you know i'm years older than you and i i
• 24:51
  I've been through all this. And I will tell you, as I'm, what, 18 years older than you, there's always going to be a fire. Yeah, you still have them, right? Oh, we had one yesterday. We're in the IT business. We had a zero-day attack on a bunch of our firewalls. What's a zero-day? It means that there's no solution to fix it.
• 25:16
  So it means you, they don't know how to fix it. You just have to disable it and shut it down. So that's it. You shut it down. And after a few hours, the group gets together and they figure it out and then they release the patch. And then you, so, but during that time, it was VPN access to a major, major network. So when you have remote people working all the time and you can't connect VPN to your servers, it's you're not, you're basically down.
• 25:45
  But that happens and it's, it's nothing's changed in my business other than me. It's all in your mindset. And that's why I wanted to bring you on the podcast, because I also reminded me how much I fricking adore you. Um, and I'm going to just pour my wisdom into you. I should say wisdom experience. Cause I don't think I'm wise.
• 26:05
  I have a lot of experience. I've made every mistake known to man. Yeah, we're going to go back to those challenges that you've overcome because that's the remarkable story. But I wanted to talk to you about I'm going to do an infomercial for you. I didn't know who unreal was before I met you. And I just happened to put myself in a room with all those amazing people you spoke about, and I met a lifelong friend. You happened to live 20 minutes from me and our at our vacation homes, which we're going to see a lot of each other.
• 26:34
  And I'm honored. And you sent me a care package. And the second I got it, I became addicted. So the one thing I'll tell you is I was a devout Lululemon person. Hopefully, I don't get sued. But this is just my personal opinion. And I get to say it because it's my podcast.
• 26:50
  And you sent me and I'm wearing today, of course, that's literally all I wear anymore. And it is the softest and it makes me look bigger. So when I show up at these events, I'm going to look bigger and bigger. My arms fits around my arms so tight. So I'm just telling you guys, go on their website. It'll be in the show notes. We'll give you a discount code that he gives us for 15% off. It is the softest.
• 27:16
  the most durable material and you can hear everything. The 20-minute talk that he just gave, you see it in everything from the packaging. I went and bought as a care package for my entire family and my neighbors. I bought a bunch. I got hats. I am unreeled out. I'm a believer. I am hooked because...
• 27:37
  I get to see the behind the operations. I'm telling you what this gentleman just said to you is absolutely true. I sat there in the Delta lounge with him as he's FaceTiming with his, his young, newer son traveling back through a snowstorm to Minnesota. Don't hold the Minnesota against them. Even though my lions kicked the crap out of your Vikings. Oh man. Did you ever, that was tough. Yeah.
• 28:01
  so I'd forgotten that you were from there and uh because I think of Florida and I just I'm really proud of you my friend and I'm really excited to see where you go we're going to share more
• 28:15
  thoughts that you've learned because let's go back to the story you were with yeah what did what'd you say his name was cory who was your the first guy the 40 year old gentleman that you started doing oh coop coop yeah coop it was i know it was a scene i don't want to get him confused coop is not he's not the bad right behind me running the machines right now in our facility so coop and i have been uh in lockstep since i was 16 years old and that's beautiful
• 28:40
  He's, uh, yep. He's our go-to embroidery specialist. And, um, yeah, he's, he's a huge part of the story. Um, pick up from there and go to, cause, cause here's the way I want to remember the listeners. Adversity just left. It's here or it's on its way. So when you go through, through, uh, through life and through business and through relationships, man, it is, you're going ups and downs. Life is a roller coaster because if it's straight lines, you're dead. Plus it's no fun. Yeah.
• 29:10
  So it's going up the mountain, down the mountain, and riding those with an even kill. It wasn't all rainbows and unicorns. So you got started. Let's pick up where you went. You got the itch. And then you went and found somebody to take it to the next level. Let's start there because here comes the real harder-than-life story.
• 29:31
  So, you know, fast forward from I'm in high school. I'm 16 years old. I just get into my first crack at, you know, just embroidering some blank generic polos and hats. And I get the edge. By the time high school is wrapping up, I was slow on the trigger. I had good grades. I was a good student. But I was slow on the trigger of figuring out my next move. I didn't. You know, it's a big decision on where am I going to go to school? What am I going to study? And I was torn between...
• 30:00
  You know, do I go the traditional route of go join all my buddies and start doing the generals at a big university or do I want to be the best web and graphic designer in the world? And so I, I leaned towards the latter and I started touring, uh,
• 30:19
  you know, this big fancy art school in Minneapolis. I walked through and did a tour and a lot of it was exciting. A lot of it was, you know, kind of, it felt a little like too small. It was not the Van Wilder episodes I was watching as a kid and I might have screwed myself with that, but it wasn't necessarily a college experience I was looking for. A lot of very artsy kids. I was more of a jock
• 30:42
  The real dagger for me was the tuition was like 35 grand and that was it for me. I didn't have the money to pay for that. So I said, you know what, maybe I've come so far on my own. I'm already really good in my mind at graphic design, web design. Maybe I should go to a university and get a business degree and kind of round myself out. And it was a good thing that I thought that way because it was very beneficial for me to do that.
• 31:09
  So, unfortunately, by that time, I'd missed the deadline for all the schools I was hoping to apply for. And I was getting ready to go to a community college. And I was kind of, you know, tail between my legs on that one, too. And a buddy of mine says, hey, you got an extra room in my apartment in Minnesota State. You want to come down there with me? And so I just, yeah, why not? And, you know, it's funny because today, Minnesota State, Mankato, is a huge part of my story.
• 31:39
  we have a school-wide deal with the university. So we're like the Nike of that. Well, it used to be Nike. We just took it over this year. Um, so all their athletic programs are unreal head to toe and, and, uh, it's, it started to really go and it's just, yeah, it's fun. They do a great job telling, telling the story and they just really, um, you know, a lot of these professors took a liking to me because I showed some drive and passion that they, they were willing to,
• 32:03
  you know, go the extra mile and mentor me and help, help me get to the next level. And so, yeah, I'm in, I'm in college and I am, I got two roommates. We're all similar, you know, similarly like-minded. I remember the one difference for me was just, I was still trying to get as much work as I could. I was digging through freelance websites, trying to find design jobs out there on the internet. And I would, I was getting a handful of them and, and
• 32:30
  completing these projects this one comes up and it's a dye sublimation jersey catalog and i didn't know what any of that meant other than jersey catalog i meet the owner of the company who's pitching the job out there and and learn more about this process and in a nutshell it is it's a like a motocross jersey or you know softball jerseys are commonly graphics all over the the shirt right it's unlimited color unlimited placements of logos
• 32:57
  So if you can design it in Adobe Illustrator, it's not quite this simple, but you can basically print it on the shirt. And so that was really inspiring to me. I'm thinking, oh, wow, that's a whole different thing. I'm used to, you only have the left chest or the right chest or sleeves on a polo.
• 33:16
  Now I can quite literally design the whole thing with a, if I wanted, I started playing around with it a little later on, but I'd print like the whole stadium of a MLB stadium and printed across the whole garment and did some really cool graphics with it and just did stuff that was different than, you know, what, what you'd see in a normal retail shop at, at a pro sports arena.
• 33:39
  Anyways, back to the story. The guy that pitches this job needed a designer to come up with a catalog of softball, hockey jerseys, basically templates that he could use to, you know, manufacturing business to do this dye supplementation process, cut and sew in the printing all in one. And so I design his catalog, but as I'm working on it, my roommate comes in, it's probably, you know, one in the morning or midnight, past midnight. Yeah.
• 34:05
  Luke is his name. He shows me his computer. You know, these guys are up gaming. They're playing Call of Duty and, you know, screaming at their Xboxes. And he goes, dude, you got to see this. He shows me his computer. And these four guys are standing on stage holding the big, big monster check with 100,000 written on it. And it's like, dude, this video game thing is blowing up. These guys are, it's becoming like a real sport. And there's real money in it now in these tournaments.
• 34:28
  I'm like, huh, let me see that again. Because I'm over here designing these jerseys, and I look at the picture, and it's four guys wearing screen print T-shirts like you and I are wearing, regular T-shirts like you and I are wearing with a bunch of sponsored logos screen printed on it. I'm thinking I might know a better way to do those. So I started searching, and gamingjerseys.com is wide open. So did what any broke college kid does and threw a promo code on it and got it for $3, and then bought every other rendition of it, gamerjerseys.com,
• 34:58
  GamingJerseys.net, you name it. EsportsJerseys.com. And that night, my wheels really started going. I'm researching. There's really nothing else out there like this for this industry. And I'm not reinventing the wheel here. I'm just taking what they've been doing for a while in motocross, softball, hockey, and I'm just going to make the shirt for video game guys or gamers, right? And so I finished the catalog for the client and then...
• 35:28
  immediately, you know, spend the next day and a half building a website for gamingjerseys.com and pumping it with templates for gaming jersey designs. So I called a client and said, Hey, I can email it to you, but I'd like to meet you in the cities and pitch you on an idea. And that happens. He likes it. I had watched enough Shark Tank to know that it was good to get 51%, but I didn't really know why I was 18 years old. Um, so I said, uh, you know, here's the deal. Here's the website. You can see his eyes kind of light up. And I said, I'm going to launch
• 35:58
  And I'm looking for a manufacturing partner just to handle the manufacturing and distribution. I'll do everything else in the business. And I'll give you 49% if you're interested and you can run the back end of it. And he said, no.
• 36:10
  I'm interested, but let's go 50-50. You got a deal. And I couldn't have stuck my hand out faster because I was just psyched that a 45-year-old businessman who was seemingly very successful wanted to partner up with me and believed in the idea. And so there we went, 50-50 partners. I had so much blind trust in that that I wasn't even worried about. I mentioned, we talked about formalizing the partnership agreements and all that. And I just kind of...
• 36:38
  put that in my notebook and tucked it up on the shelf and it collected dust, uh, and never happened. And so fast forward that it takes off quickly. We, we get flown out to MLG world championships, which is major league gaming. It's like the NFL of video games. And, um,
• 36:59
  they're showing some interest in what we're doing. And when we get there, it's like 20% of the teams are already wearing our stuff. And now I'm seeing, okay, this is going to be the standard. And they gave us a trial run, you know, hey, bump out some just generic like MLG jerseys and can you do on-site customization? So we were printing names on the back of guys' jerseys right there on the spot. And
• 37:23
  And we sold out the first day. So it was a big success. And from there, it was, all right, the concept's been proven, guys. You know, and I want to paint the picture of who we're dealing with here, this silver fox gentleman, probably early 60s,
• 37:41
  His name was John Lane and he was, you know, suit and tie. He's a, he's a sports exec. And as he's touring us around the venue, I'm asking him all these questions. He's telling us the whole lay of the land and said, John, where are you? What's your background? Where did you come from? He said, well, I was at ML or major league soccer for the last 10 years. I was a vice president over there and.
• 38:02
  I just saw a bigger opportunity here. So I left and that's, I kind of nodded to my partner and said, all right, we're onto something. I mean, this guy's, this guy's serious and he's legit. And if he made that jump, we're, we're in the right direction. And, um, and so he says to us, you know, we're basically going to plug you into our pipeline. So every Jersey that, or every team that signs up for a tournament has to buy a Jersey. It's gotta be the official MLG insignia on the Jersey, but it's coming through you.
• 38:30
  So you'll pay us a royalty back on the back end and you keep all the profit after that. And he gave us a case study of another headphone company that they took to the moon. And I knew all about them. So we couldn't be more excited. But as soon as we got back home, something changed. And all of a sudden there was this conversation about, hey, I think we should merge the two companies, my existing with the new one, gaming jerseys.
• 38:56
  And, uh, I thought, I said, why do you want to do that? And I was kind of thinking in my head, maybe it's because I'm doing the backend of the business too, and printing all the shirts for both businesses, which now I never complained about. I was happy to do it because I was, I don't know, it just was, it was good learning and it was, you know, one team, you know, kind of a deal, but.
• 39:14
  I thought maybe he's trying to make that right or something and give me a piece of the other one. And that was not the case. I'm actually surprised he admitted this, but he said his brother had given him the money to buy the equipment five years ago. And so he was mad that we were going to make all this money on the spinoff gaming jerseys company using his equipment. Yeah.
• 39:33
  I said, all right, well, that sounds kind of like your problem, not mine, but what are you thinking for equity split? And I was, I mean, as you and I would imagine, it should be coming out of his 50 if his brother's mad at him for whatever. And I'm bringing plenty to the table on the other side of it. So he said, well, I own 50 of both. So I was thinking I'd stay 50, and then you and my brother split the other 50, 25, 25. I'm like, wow. Wow.
• 39:58
  No, thank you. Give me the financials. And if everything is apples to apples, perfectly identical, maybe there's a world that makes sense. But I know the potential is not the same for the two businesses. And I also kind of know the financials are probably not the same. But without even producing the financials, you know, after I asked multiple times, it was just, you know, pretty soon, you know,
• 40:18
  partner, his brother and their dad, who's a seasoned business executive, are cornering me in the room and, hey, kid, just sign the document. Don't screw this deal up. Just sign the contract. And I said, no, I'm not doing it. I'd rather keep them separate. If you guys want to work this out on your end, that's up to you. I'm happy to let your brother in, but that's your call. I'd rather keep them separate. And that didn't go over well. So then it turned into both of us lawyering up, and then it turned into...
• 40:47
  Pretty soon, it was eight months of arbitration, day in and day out, dealing with the lawyers, trying to come to an agreement. And there was just, you know, even when we, I really let go of so much and handed over the, you know, who was going to run it. Because now at this point, we have bad blood. We're not going to get along and make, you know, break bread after this. So, yeah.
• 41:09
  I agreed to bow out of the operations, let him run it because he was adamant about it. I didn't agree with it, but I said, all right, well, we came up with a solution I thought would work, which is I will still pump new designs into the website. I'll get a royalty off the top, just like MLG gets a royalty. So now I'm incentivized or our interests are in the same alignment here. Yeah.
• 41:29
  I'm incentivized to put new exciting designs on the website because it leads to more money in my pocket. And, you know, I'm not, I have no way of screwing you. Right. And so we would come to that agreement and then I'd see buried on page 34 fine print that says something that, you know,
• 41:46
  And anyways, I'm never going to get paid in a tricky language way, right? Like if we change the logo or if Game of Jersey's logo, this exact one is not on the jersey. No royalties get paid to Michael. And, you know, it just over and over that kept happening. I kept catching something like that. And finally, I thought, all right.
• 42:04
  If he wants to screw me over it, he'll find a way. And I just pulled the plug and said, this is just because I'm over here, I'm 19 years old now at this time, and I'm racking up a massive bill with a highly paid lawyer, right? And...
• 42:20
  And I've got my tuition that I didn't say this part, but I started the company my freshman year in college. I dropped out midway through sophomore year and was working full time in the manufacturing facility for this business. And so now I'm a college dropout with a mountain of debts that, you know, between the tuition loans and the lawyer bills.
• 42:50
  Any which way we split those numbers on the most conservative projections, this thing's headed towards $100 million a year in annual revenue. And likely way north of that if we're not being really, really cautious on the conversion rates and all that. But based on the audience size and being the go-to brand for the major league gaming, that's where I was headed. Yeah.
• 43:14
  You know, I, that was a tough pill to swallow is like, I'm sure you can imagine, but you feel like you get your baby ripped away from you. And, you know, I'm, I'm back home in mom's basement now and about as low as I've ever been thinking what an idiot I am for not getting my contract signed with this partner for, for agreeing to 50, 50, all these thoughts in my head, you know.
• 43:35
  Um, and, and meanwhile, I'm airing out a lot of this in a, you know, kind of contained way to John Lay and the executive at MLG. I'm saying, Hey, you know, if you see a contract come through with a signature, just know it's, it's, it's void. It's.
• 43:50
  you know, we're going through some stuff. Can you give us a little bit of air cover here and give us a month or two to get, get our ducks in a row. And that got to a point where finally after, I don't know, three, four months, John said, Hey, we got to go a different direction. And so we ended up losing the deal, the big opportunity in the midst of this arbitration. So that helped me kind of pull the plug a little, a little easier, but, um, but yeah, what a myth, like what a whiff, man, you get, you get called up to the major leagues and you get up to bat and you whiff and, and don't even really get a take a swing. Right. Yeah.
• 44:20
  Stop right there because that is so good. I let that whole thing run because I want everybody to resonate there. So what does the audience take away from all that? What are the bullet points? I got them all, but I want you to say them.
• 44:35
  One, be careful who you get into business with. Partnerships are, that's where I see young people make the, it's not always a mistake. I don't want to say it that way, but it's really easy to say to your best friend, Hey, let's go into business together and let's handshake it and let's roll. And pretty soon, well, if you're going to do that, get it documented very well. And, and you can do it simply with a template online, you know, a simple partnership agreement, boilerplate doesn't need to cost you an arm and a leg to do this, but.
• 45:05
  But understanding the expectations is arguably even more important, right? Like if one of you is going to outpace the other one in the amount of work hours you put in, that's going to become a contention point down the road. If one guy's working double the amount of hours, the other guy, there's ways to right size of a salary comp and everything else. But, you know, if, well, I wish I would have known that the advantage of being the majority owner in a business, if I had held on to the 51%,
• 45:34
  I would have just shut that idea down immediately and it never would have gone to where it went. I got the same. I'm sorry. I got this. I'm just giggling over. I did all the same exact mistakes. I think we've had this conversation. I did the same. The one thing I would add to advice, and I think I said this to you, but listen to this one, guys. All the audience, listen. If somebody is in a massive hurry to make a deal happen, there is a reason for it.
• 46:02
  It usually isn't good. It is. There is a underlying reason. So slow it down. If it's meant to be in your life, it will happen the next day, the next week, the next month, however long you need to slow that down. Nothing needs to happen. No matter even on the sales.
• 46:24
  Oh, today's the last day there. It's always the last day. Everything's free tomorrow. Right. So somebody's in a hurry. I had the same thing. I've paid millions of dollars to partners because I jumped in eyes wide shut. But we've always had good ironclad operating agreements. So it was very cut and dry. And I, but you learn so much and I love to notice that.
• 46:49
  This is the one and I'm sure you notice this, but you said the company's worth nine figures now. And you said that they were going to be nine figure, maybe 100 billion before. So you're right. No matter what happened, that was your schooling. You didn't finish college, but you got your schooling the hard way. So I like to point out to our listeners, you're going to learn it one way or the other. But listen to the heart of life show.
• 47:15
  And don't learn it the hard way. Learn from Michael and Kelly because we spent millions. Don't do it that way.
• 47:25
  Well, and there's a silver lining in all of this. You know, you were kind of getting to it there. Yeah, I'm back where I should have been. But it took me a decade to get back, you know, maybe a little less than that. But, you know, I had to start from ground zero, actually below the ground. I had to pay off the debt that I had racked up and claw my way back to –
• 47:47
  you know, where we are today. And honestly, it was not unreal as, uh, as his playing against, I mean, my competitors are Lululemon, Nike, Adidas, uh, Viore. I mean, these are not small fries where I was in a much more niche space in the gaming industry. And I'll be the first to admit though, that this was a big blessing in disguise. The silver lining is that, I mean, I, I got my MBA program in the year I dropped out the year and a half. I was out of school and, um,
• 48:14
  And then I actually did, you know, there's another, my old man said to me, you already spent all that money. Why don't you go back and finish school? Cause he never had his degree, but he kind of said it in a way, like, what are you an idiot? Go back and get it done. So, so I did, I went back and finished it and I just, um, yeah, I was out for a year and a half. Dude, I'm proud of you. That is, I didn't know that.
• 48:37
  I think I got it up here on the wall. You finished. You went back and finished. And then now, what's your son's name again?
• 48:45
  Nico. Nico. Now you've set the tone for Nico. Yeah. And, buddy, it's harder than life. Nothing stopped you. Nothing. And you can look at Nike. You just did it, baby. You just did it. The biggest blessing in disguise for me on that old thing. Sorry, I know I'm going backwards here. No, no, no. Please do. Is that I did not know how hard it is to...
• 49:11
  win in the business world and how hard it is to make a buck. You know, I thought I was, I mean, I'm an 18 year old kid. I was cocky as shit. And I thought I was going to hit a grand slam on my first at bat. And if I, and I was likely, I was going to, but I was going to fall hard. If I, if that had happened and, you know, we went from zero to a hundred million, it would have crumbled on the way up. I guarantee it.
• 49:34
  or shortly after, right? I mean, there was a lot I needed to learn before getting to that level. And so, you know, I think that it was the best thing that ever happened to me was going through that adversity and being able to, you know, really get those hards
• 49:52
  hard learning lessons in this life because it's, that's the reason I'm here now and talking to you today is because that happened. If it didn't, I might be the biggest loser on the, you know, written about on the internet. I don't know that I would have been able to get to this point. So, so yeah, I mean, I think there's, it's all about perspective, right? And it's, it's seeing the good in every, in every,
• 50:16
  moment that seems so horrible, being able to recognize and debrief on that and say, all right, here's where I learned from this. Here's the silver lining underneath it all. Sometimes it's not evident for a while. You know, sometimes it takes a bit of time for that becomes...
• 50:33
  The clarity comes to you on why that all happened, but there's a reason why you went through it. But there's a lot of little speed bumps that Kelly and I are kind of breezing through right now that you don't need to go through. You can bunny hop right over some of these things, but there's just no shortcuts, right? There's no cutting a corner to get to the top, and I can't stress that enough. You've got to do it the right way.
• 50:57
  And I think that's, again, why I'm here right now. I started this business with $300 about, I don't know, a month after the gaming jerseys business folds. I'm moping around for a little while. And then I said, well, you know what? I'm 19 years old. I'm still able-bodied and got a whole lot of drive left in me. Let's do it again. Get back on the horse, dust myself off. Yeah.
• 51:19
  Let's see what we can do. And I had 300 bucks in my savings account. Meanwhile, I had the 75 grand worth of debt that I'd racked up, but I said, all right, we're gonna start making the payment plans. I'll go get a real job, but I'll print shirts at night. And so I called Coop and said, hey buddy,
• 51:34
  here I am back again, back in the hometown. How many hats and shirts can I make for 300 bucks? I've got an idea. And I wanted to create this brand called Unreal because every athlete I was seeing winning the World Series or winning the Super Bowl, how does it feel is the question. And they all say that same word. It feels unreal. And it's like the word you use to describe the indescribable moments. And I thought, how can I coin that into a brand? And that was back when I was, I think, 17 or 18. And I kind of...
• 52:04
  I whipped up a mock-up of the logo and the website. I put it on the shelf and then dove into the gaming jerseys thing. And then when I, I don't know, I guess, found the motivation to get back on the horse, I said, well, let's just dust that one off and see if there's any legs under it. And honestly, I didn't think it would turn into what it is. At the very beginning, I didn't believe, I thought it was going to be a side hustle, t-shirt brand, graphic tees. And then I started, the vision started to evolve over the coming year, I would say first year in business. Yeah.
• 52:33
  um, but yeah, man, there's so much to learn in every moment of adversity. I mean, I think people who have a mentality of why is this happening to me is, is such a cancerous mentality, right? You have to, and I'm guilty of it. I, my wife was just telling me to shut my mouth the other day. Cause I'm, I'm over here, you know, griping about all these, these problems that keep arising, you know? And I,
• 52:57
  Again, the high standards thing. But yeah, I mean, if you can look at it and find that why behind these things and how to spin it into a positive mind frame, right? Like the Boston Celtics coach was just talking about Jason Tatum. And this clip pops up on my Instagram. And then my COO sends it to me about a week later and says, hey, man, here's some wisdom for you. It's coach of the Celtics being asked by the NBA analysts, you know, hey, what's
• 53:26
  Do you agree? It's pretty unfair the level of criticism that Jason Tatum is having to deal with, and he jumps over him abruptly and says, gets to. He gets to deal with that. This is what he wanted. He wanted to be the best player in the NBA, on the best team in the league, and he's here. So we talk about it all the time. He gets the opportunity to deal with that level of criticism or struggle and
• 53:49
  you know, seeing that end of it and the glass half full instead of why is the glass always half empty is, is something I want people to take away from this. And I, it's something that I'm speaking from, I haven't mastered it. I'm speaking from a place of, I deal with it and, and I'm working on it over and over. And it's the same kind of mentality as this being overly critical, but I'm, I'm really trying to see the world through that lens and, and.
• 54:17
  be more, show more gratitude for the fact that I'm here right now talking to Kelly Siegel on this podcast and I've got a room, you know, an office full of just unbelievable people out in front of me that I'm looking out at right now that are all in on this mission to leave a legacy, which I'll get into next, but I'm proud of that.
• 54:36
  You said so many gems there. And I want to say you are literally the epitome of everything happens for you. And you get to do it. I love that you went into the get to because it's true. You get to do all this, but you never stopped moving. You never took on that victim mentality. So my number one piece of advice to the listeners out there, and especially you young people, is never give up on your dream. Push back.
• 55:05
  despite all the obstacles that come at you at the, then get a good agreement and get a plan. That's the one thing I didn't do. And with us, our conversations, I could tell that you didn't, you just, we just kind of, we have a dream and a fricking and a desire and we go. Yeah.
• 55:22
  Get a plan and execute a plan. That's my, those are my two biggest piece of advice. It took, I didn't implement a business plan at my IT company until I was 40. And we were wondering why we kept hitting a ceiling. So fail to plan, plan to fail. So tenacity is one of our core values.
• 55:44
  And continuously improving is another, which is exactly what we're talking about. Now, would you like to add to that? Please tell me your two business advices out of everything you said. Now you're sprinkling in gems, but what are your two go to?
• 56:00
  Yeah, I mean, I don't know the average agent of your audience, but I speak a lot to the Minnesota State School of Business, and I try to leave them with a couple nuggets. And one of them is start early, start now. I think that we were just in the, I was doing this a few weeks ago, and we were talking about having a business plan.
• 56:21
  You know, I think that you can get caught up a little bit in the semantics of a business plan. If you go to, I remember doing it when I was 19, starting this up and it was, I think I went to bplans.com and just pulled the template and then started changing the language in it. Right. But it gave me a nice starting point of what should be in it. But I remember getting kind of hung up on some of these, these different segments of it, you know, it's like a 10 page document or more. And
• 56:48
  you know, your revenue projections and your profitability and all of this stuff. And, and, you know, those are obviously very important metrics and you, you need to know your margins before you get into a business. But at that, at that time there was, there was more, I don't know, it was more noise than, than here's a legit path to where I'm trying to go. And so I,
• 57:11
  My advice on that though is, is yes, have a plan. I mean, start with a 10 year vision. You can do like the EOS models and really simple way to do it. Start with a 10 year, big, crazy vision and list the bullet points on paper. What does this thing going to look like 10 years from now? Crazy, ambitious dream, like everything goes right. And then, okay, if that's the vision, then ladder it down to what do I need to do in three years from now, the next three years to get there, to set myself up for that 10 year vision.
• 57:38
  vision and then ladder it down from there to a one-year plan. And then what do I need to do this year to get to the three-year? And then you can even break it down into quarters from there. So it's more digestible. I feel like even a one-year goal is a little too far of a goalpost to stay focused the whole way through.
• 57:54
  So break it into four quarters and look at 90 day windows of, of here's how I'm going to get there. And if you just keep resetting it every, every quarter, um, that's what we do today. And it's, uh, it's incredibly helpful for this business. I mean, there is no 30 page business plan document parked in our, um, you know, our, our server, but there is 300 pages worth of supporting documents around what I just described. And, and so, um, yeah,
• 58:22
  Yeah, don't worry about the formality, I guess, is one of it, but start young and start early, right? There's just never going to be a perfect time. And for those of you who are, you know, you might be 60 years old or 40 years old or 20, it doesn't matter. It's just the idea is life's never going to just stop moving and everything's going to be settled and perfect and the timing is now right.
• 58:45
  Um, I think just getting reps in early and start doing like these little test projects that, that maybe don't carry any weight, right? Like you don't, before you go quit your job and jump all in, you know, two feet first with a family and a mortgage and, and all of these things that depend on you.
• 59:03
  get your reps in and feel confident in your plan and then take that leap when you're feeling ready. I think it's very dependent on the business that you're getting into, but I feel like kids nowadays have this mindset of like, oh, I need to go raise other people's money in order to start my business. And
• 59:20
  There are, yeah, there are definitely, there's definitely industries where that is the case and there's just no way to bootstrap it from, you know, your back pocket. But there's so many that you can bootstrap from your back pocket. And if you have, if your big dream is, is over there in the very expensive startup, high startup capital world, um,
• 59:40
  I would, and you do have no business experience. I would encourage you to start with something a little lower stakes and at least get, you know, get some hard knocks and get, you know, some learning lessons under your belt. And then like, I don't know about you Kelly, but I would feel, I feel very confident in my business acumen today that I feel like I could go to another vertical and dominate. And it doesn't matter about the technical abilities. Like this is going to sound very cocky and arrogant, but yeah,
• 1:00:07
  I remember a conversation with my wife talking about like a horse business and, and she's in the equestrian world, which if there's any other advice, it's tread carefully. If you're married to a woman who wants to get into the horse world because they are expensive. But we were talking about, you know,
• 1:00:25
  the way the business world goes over there and the way that these different, you know, businesses are set up and the boarding and the training and all that. And I said, I, they're doing it wrong. You know, I, if I was going to do it, I would bet my, I bet the house that I would succeed over the people who have been doing it. And they're experts in the horse world. Because I, you know, I feel like I'm an expert in the business world, at least to a degree. Right. And
• 1:00:49
  I just see a better way to structure this, the business and the products that are offered and all of that. Now, granted, they're going to run laps around me in terms of knowing about the ins and outs and intricacies of that niche industry. But I'm going to hire someone that knows all of that immediately, and that's how I'm going to win. I'm just going to guide the high-level business strategy and...
• 1:01:13
  I would guarantee it that I would succeed if you put me in the ring against someone who's been doing it for a long time and has that background. Now, again, it is a very arrogant thing to say, and I'm kind of embarrassed that I just said that publicly. But I think there is having an edge is important to also being successful. And believing in yourself is critical to getting to where you need to go. And I say all that, and that doesn't –
• 1:01:40
  there's a strong chance somebody punches me in the mouth. You know, if I ever actually did that challenge and I get smoked by the person that I thought I was going to beat, but at least I went in there with a full head of steam and confidence. And you know, I think if, uh, yeah, I don't know. Hopefully that makes sense to you. I think I was rambling a little bit, but it's a business in life are going to punch you in the mouth, dude. It's just inevitable. It's going to happen. I,
• 1:02:04
  I resonate with it so much of what you said, and I couldn't be more proud. I can't wait to continue to watch you grow and help you grow. And what you said is I hope people go back and listen to this. You just keep mixing in these little gems like –
• 1:02:19
  Start before you're ready. The best time to start was yesterday. The second best time is today. It has never been more easy to start a business than right now because all of the things that I had to worry about back in the day are readily available with chat GPT, with the internet, with the, we, we, I can't even tell you how many.
• 1:02:41
  Thousands of dollars we had to do to hire a lawyer to build us an operating agreement that you can make in five minutes right now on the interview. I didn't have a website for my IT company for 10 years. It was said under construction. But that was also from 1997 to 2007 or maybe it was 2005.
• 1:03:00
  And this was, you know, in the start of the internet. So I, this is where the age comes in and I'm with you. I walk around and I watch businesses. Listen, every business has the same issues. That's why EOS works, by the way. If you ever see me with my business stuff, I always have my VTO, my vision traction organization chart with me, because I'm always looking back at it and saying every decision needs to come up. 10 year, three year, one year, right?
• 1:03:27
  Every decision I make now has to be towards my one year plan, because if I'm making a decision towards the three year plan, it's good. But if it's nowhere on the plan, don't do it. It's irrelevant. So many people will go, oh, well, this makes us so much money. You could go in the shoe business. Right. Why? In-N-Out Burgers makes burgers. They don't make chicken sandwiches. Right.
• 1:03:53
  So you're not- And you will get pulled in every which way throughout the course of your business. The opportunities or the distractions rather are going to flood in and you need to be eyes wide open on what that end goal North Star is for you, that 10-year dream. Otherwise, you're going to zigzag and get pulled and twisted and flipped around 10 times before you even get back and recognize which direction you were heading. Is it worth it? 100%.
• 1:04:22
  love that. I want to go into this legacy because I got to see firsthand how proud of a father you are, how good of a kid you have, and how much of a supportive partner, wife that you have. And you've mentioned her five or six times. So before we get into the legacy, which we're going to get to, I promise I want to talk to me about your wife and kids and how important family and how faith works into all of this.
• 1:04:48
  Yeah, man. My wife, Mia Jordan, she is just a beautiful soul. I've known her since I was seven years old. And I had a crush on her when I saw her when I was seven years old. And then that developed into a...
• 1:05:03
  She was my first Valentine at 14, but we never... So we always liked each other, but we never dated. We liked each other through high school. You know, we would see each other here and there. She went to the University of Minnesota. I was at Minnesota State. So every once in a blue moon, we'd see each other when we were on each other's campuses or whatever, but kept each other at arm's length, I would say, through college. And I kind of went... You know, she's a very...
• 1:05:32
  just good woman and stayed the path of what, you know, you did, what your parents would want you to do. I went a little bit off course for a while and partied and did all the things. And, and I had to get that out of my system, I think, in order to wake up and have a shot at Mia. So
• 1:05:50
  it wasn't until 27 when I finally asked her out on a date and it was just such a divine like God thing. I was in a neighboring town where my brother, I stayed at my brother's house. This is kind of actually, the stories are overlapping now. This is during that kind of down period when I felt like I had the,
• 1:06:09
  you know, the whole world in the palm of my hands, but I was feeling something was missing. And I think I said I was 25, but maybe I was 26, 27 or so when that, when it was, when that feeling was coming up. And, um, I remember staying at my brother's house that night and, um, I woke up that Sunday morning and I was, for some reason, Mia was on my mind and I knew her, you know, she had moved over to the side of the town. And so I just sent her a text, Hey, let's get together, go for a walk and, um, and catch up. And so that's what we did. And, um,
• 1:06:37
  Um, I think we both just kind of fell in love and, and, you know, when we caught up and went for that walk and, um, you know, she actually had a boyfriend at the time. So, uh, we had to get to deal with that one and get him out of the way first. But, um, finally, wait a minute. Finally, I see a chink in your heart armor, your little, your little homewrecker, everything else. You've been so wonderful. You're impossible not to like, by the way, impossible not to like you.
• 1:07:07
  So we were talking about life, catching up, and it was a very harmless conversation. I was not trying, honestly, I was not trying to be devious here, but I said, tell me about the relationship you're in. How is he? Is he a good guy? Yeah, I just kept sensing hesitation in her voice, and finally I said, well, or she said something to me, like, it's been five years, and I don't know if he's going to commit and ever get down on a knee and propose, but if he doesn't,
• 1:07:36
  relatively soon. I don't know. I'm going to have to make a decision if I'm going to stick it out or not. And I said, well, hold on. I mean, are you in love? And she couldn't answer that question. And so, and I didn't force it. I just, I just kind of nodded and we just kept walking and I changed the topic. And, um, but that was that. And I knew, and she knew that I knew. And then
• 1:07:57
  And then, yeah, there was a little bit of me kind of watching the clock on a couple of weeks here and hopefully my phone rings and it did. And then, yeah, I mean, obviously we needed time to heal. I hate to keep going. There's so many good gems. That's another lesson of being patient. Be patient. And what is meant for you will come to you. We're in such a hurry.
• 1:08:23
  Yeah. Push, push, push. Now you have to grind towards it, but what's meant for you will show up. Look at this. He was down and out and God sent him this angel. Hey, by the way, does the, um, do you, you obviously, did you know the ex that you know him to this day? No, no. I hope he doesn't listen to the heart of the backstory. Hey dude, this is how he got replaced.
• 1:08:49
  Uh, well, I, I don't care if he hears it because he, he'll know I wasn't, uh, it wasn't a Mr. Steal your girl moment. It was, it was pretty innocent. It was just looking out for a friend moment, you know, and Hey, if you, if you're not in love, don't settle. I think is what I said. And then that was that we, we kept walking, but, um, yeah.
• 1:09:08
  And I would say that to anybody if I had an interest or not, right? But that's just wisdom. I mean, don't settle. And that applies to business. That applies to marriage. It applies to everything we do in this life. Know your worth and know what's going to create your happiness. And don't settle for, especially with a one-way door like that. I mean, that's not an easy one to reverse. So...
• 1:09:32
  Yeah. I mean, so Mia and I fast forward a little bit. I mean, we, we started dating at 27. So yeah, I met her at seven. It took me 20 years to finally kiss the woman, but we got that out of the way very awkwardly on the first go around. I might add. So cute. This is going to be a love story. Dated for a year. And then I knew, I mean, we knew right away. So a day for a year proposed and, um,
• 1:09:58
  got married shortly after, and then had our first son, Nico, a year and a half ago. He's about 18 months now, actually. And he was just the love of my life and the love of my wife's life. I mean, we were just, I don't know, I couldn't dream it up any differently. And I was, to be honest with you, Kelly, I was so, maybe you felt this too. I don't know how far you were in your business career when you had kids, but I was petrified that I, because I'm a workaholic, and I would work 20 hours a day the whole day.
• 1:10:25
  you know, first seven years of this business. Um, and I'm obsessed with it. Right. So I was worried that I was going to be a terrible father that I just wouldn't be able to put it down and go home at a reasonable time. And, um, that has surprised me. I mean, see it just, man, this is getting a little deep, but seeing my child born and holding this kid, I broke, man. I was weeping like a, uh,
• 1:10:52
  I don't know. It was the most emotion I've ever felt in my life. And from that moment, it was just like, it's a no thinker for me. I, if I don't get home and put him to bed or see him before he goes down, if it's a, you know, if I'm going through something at the office, that weighs on me, man, that's a tough day. I hate when I have to do that. So fortunately that, that has not been a problem for me. And, and, you know, I'm proud to say we've got a little boy, number two coming in a month or so. I just had a,
• 1:11:20
  We had a, what do they call it, ultrasound this morning. So the final ultrasound was this morning and we couldn't be more excited, man. Such a blessing. And yeah, to have two little boys too is just, I mean, I'm dying for a girl, but...
• 1:11:35
  Two little boys you can't, you know, that's what I was kind of hoping for under my breath was, yeah, I have little mini-me's running around that, you know, hopefully can carry on my legacy I leave behind. And they are my legacy, really. But from a business perspective, you know, that'd be fun. And so I'll go into that now if now's a good time for the legacy piece. Let me just address that. And, of course, you know, this...
• 1:11:59
  First of all, congratulations to you and me. Thank you. And I just I want people to realize that it's not always easy.
• 1:12:07
  But if you keep going forward, look at this, this is a fairy tale, it's coming together and it isn't even final written yet because what got him here isn't gonna get him there. He keeps growing, keeps adding, keeps learning, surrounding himself with, well, I don't know if I'm helping you, but me, Ed Milad, John Gordon, Jordan Montgomery, John Maxwell, and he's a sponge at no point.
• 1:12:33
  has this person who's been spearheaded a nine-figure company saying, I've reached the pinnacle. I know it all. I'm everything. Now, he's building experience, so he feels like he can go do more, and I cannot wait to push, to help, to pull, to put my arm around you and go with you to whatever happens next. And I can't wait. For some reason, it didn't register me. Their wife was pregnant. So two boys is great. I have one girl.
• 1:13:02
  And awesome. She's probably got you wrapped her on her finger, doesn't she? No, we're just very close. She's me. She's a better version of me because she grew up loved. And that's awesome. You want to talk about if you don't deal with that, I don't know what I'll call it. Always noticing negative.
• 1:13:23
  you'll fight it until you're very, cause I find myself saying that like my, my daughter gets, gets a B plus and I'm like, well, why didn't you get the A? It was like, I catch myself now and I say, good job. And then I noticed, so dude, it's my stepfather was the same. It was never good enough. Oh, you're number five in the, in the rankings for the podcast. Why aren't you number one? Um,
• 1:13:50
  And believe me, there's nobody harder on themselves than me, which I bet you you're the same way. Give yourself grace if you're just starting off. We are not perfect. We are just humans. But you can still expect more out of yourself, and I'm sure you do. What's your business legacy and what's next for you? We'll get this thing wrapped up.
• 1:14:11
  Yeah. I mean, the legacy piece for me is, is really twofold. It's, it's, um, you know, what I was saying earlier about leveraging this platform, not to be the richest or to, to be the biggest or whatever it may be, um,
• 1:14:27
  it's leveraging this opportunity we have. We have this really big platform that we can use to reach into, you know, and help people that need it and give back to the community and make a dent and make a difference in the lives of people who need it. And so that's first. And second is my ambition is to build this into something that's very long standing, right? It's bigger than any of us individually. It's
• 1:14:53
  It's something that stands the test of time really is, is what leave a legacy means to me. And I'm, I'm different than most, uh, you know, most entrepreneurs that you probably have on this podcast and that I'm not, um, it's not that I'm not motivated by money, but it's not my, that is not my, uh, why. And it's not the reason I do what I do. If it was, I would have picked a different lane because this one's real hard.
• 1:15:15
  Really competitive. I want to stop with you. I'm going to cut in just for, I hate to do this because you just dawn on me that this is what I always say. Money doesn't make you happy, but happiness makes you money. You're a happy dude and it exudes out of you and you're making money. You are exactly what I'm teaching all my coaches, all of my students, whatever we want to call all my heart of the life nation people.
• 1:15:44
  This is the dude right here. You've done it. And you're going to continue to do it. So I just applaud you. I'm proud of you. And I just, you know, we're going to strive for excellence, but we're going to be the best. I'd like to say we're going to strive for perfection and hopefully we land somewhere around excellence, right? Or damn good would be, you know, suitable and depending on what it is. But it's okay to chase perfection. It's not okay to have that as your expectation is one thing I'm really trying to.
• 1:16:12
  How often are you moving the goalposts? Quarterly. Okay, okay. We gotta get together. We gotta start holding each other down a little bit. Just enjoying. I do need to be able to slow down and enjoy. Yeah, I'll tell you one way to do it, and this is wild, and I love you. I haven't talked to you since we got back, but I took an 11-day phone vacation. I shut my phone off in Florida for 11 days. People thought I was nuts.
• 1:16:41
  It was, you want to talk about connecting with your family? Try doing it for the first week when your newborn is born. Just, and one thing about it is if you run in the company, right, which I know you are, you come back to solutions and not problems. It's wild. I came back and there was not as, it was beautiful. So I just, I don't know whose podcast I heard this on, but the guy said, take a phone vacation. I thought it was nuts.
• 1:17:08
  About three days in, first of all, I didn't realize how much is tied to our phone, the streaming services, my gym memberships, parts of the car, parts of lights, parts of how I get in the house. But after you figured that- You went cold. Like you weren't even using it for- Shut it off and put it in a drawer and did not pick it up for 11 days. Because if you know what happens, you're going to make concession. And I did nothing.
• 1:17:35
  It was good for you, man. That's awesome. So relaxing. Try it. If I could. Now, did you set the goal as 11 days or is that where you landed on a 20 day journey? I said I needed to land and you saw me. We're, we're burning it. We, you know, we've launched the fricking new, the new pockets. After I'm done with you, I have to record three more podcasts and it's Friday and I've worked probably 80 hours this week.
• 1:18:00
  So we were off for six. So no, it was just, I said, when I land, I'm going to shut it off and I'm going to turn it back on on the first. And it just happened to be 11 days. So what I'm doing now is every year from Christmas to New Year's, I'm just shutting off. So it's going to be a seven day practice and I'm going to do it every year. But I have massive goals like you do. We're going to work out 500 times. I'm going to meditate 365 times. I got numbers for everything and we're going to smash them.
• 1:18:27
  absolutely man that's that's impressive that isn't that is a whole nother level of elite working off 500 times in a year what are you nuts yeah well this is what i so i want to end it with this i have a request of you would you please make me some sleeveless shirts all i that's what keeps me to lulu level i'll be your guinea pig will you make me some sleeveless shirts please i love this feeling i need i'll be the guinea pig
• 1:18:52
  I need to get rid of this Lululemon stuff because, oh, by the way, another infomercial, it's half the price and double the value and double the freaking price. I would buy it. It was double the price of Lululemon, but it's half the price. It feels better. I just need some sleeveless shirts for when I work out.
• 1:19:11
  But guys, give this stuff a shot. Give it a try. It's much better than built. Something about the built material is scratchy on me. And Lululemon, I don't know what they're doing with their material, but it's not lasting as long. And now when you see me out, I'm head to toe on a reel. I even have hats. I bought hats. If you go look at my order, I bought for crazy because I don't want to have anything related to it because I'm going to support my friends, which has now become family.
• 1:19:40
  And I'm just extraordinarily happy for you. And I can't wait to have you on in a couple more years and see where you're at. Then I did not know that you go donate 10% to charity. That I say, that's what the heart of the life entire brand is for. We're going to take care of the people that built the brand. And then we're going to set, donate the rest of charity because I too am not, this isn't for money. This is to make the world a better place. So they don't have to deal with the things that I had to deal with to get here.
• 1:20:10
  I, my stepdad was a jerk. My mom was horrible to me. I had no way had a good, none. So that's where the harder than life comes from.
• 1:20:23
  But we're going to donate a ton of money to charity. And we're going to do it with amazing podcasts with people like you and with brands like you that we're partnering with. And we're going to do as much as we can with Unreal. And I got to do some more posts for you guys. And I love it. I highly recommend it. It's Siegel recommended. Harder than Life Nation. Go out and get this stuff. There will be links in the show notes. But again, let's go back to if there's anything I haven't asked you that you feel compelled to share.
• 1:20:51
  Wow. Well, thanks, man. I, you know, I appreciate that. I think that, um, I think it was that, you know, money is not my, my driving factor in the Y, um, you know, building something incredible is, you know, one of them. And I feel like it's, it's something that I have to kind of reevaluate every five years or so and see if that is, if I'm still having a fire in my belly and that's, what's getting me out of bed. Um,
• 1:21:16
  Um, you know, so it's, it's evolved and evolves every so often, you know, it's not every day it changes, but it's, it might be every five years or so that that goalpost kicks out on what, and then what I, the frame of mind on how I look at why I do what I do every day, but yeah.
• 1:21:33
  You know, starting a business guys, I think is, is, it's an incredibly hard thing to do. And it's not, it's not for the. Bain of heart. It's not for the weak, right? I mean, you have to have the, the grit and the hustle and the resiliency and the patience and all these different things that we've talked about throughout this episode. It is by no stretch impossible. And it is by, by no means does it require you to be a genius. I think Kelly and I are two shining examples of that.
• 1:21:58
  Um, you know, I both just grew up normal kids, probably at a disadvantage in some ways than, than some of our classmates or whatever, but, um, but having that, that drive and passion and, and desire to, to accomplish your goals and then continue to level them up is, is going to take you a really long way and being resilient and having thick enough skin to get back, get back on the saddle when you get knocked down, cause it's going to happen. And that's, that goes into the perfect timing thing too. It's
• 1:22:27
  The timing will never be right and perfect for you. But no one, I mean, I shouldn't say no one, but I don't know any entrepreneur who just left their job and started a company and then they took it to the moon. You fall down a lot and you might as well get your, you know,
• 1:22:45
  get your licks in early and do it when the stakes are a little bit lower. You know, start a side hustle and work on it at night and launch your own e-commerce business or an affiliate marketing site or something like that that's not going to cost you, you know, hundreds of thousands or millions to get it off the ground and just –
• 1:23:03
  Play in the sandbox for a little while, right? And then once you feel confident and you've learned some of those lessons, then go do the big dream. And you're going to be far more well-equipped to tackle the big one if you do that and you start early and get after it.
• 1:23:23
  you know, and chase your passion, find a way to monetize it. You know, if it was up to me, I'd be a pro golfer, but I wasn't, I didn't have the skill to do that. So, you know, I found what I, what really drove me, you know, equally, or if not even maybe a little more than sports growing up, it was, you know, when I was a kid, I wanted to be a pro hockey player and I wasn't, that didn't happen. So, but I had this thing, I just loved designing it. I was so passionate about it. And now I've found a way to monetize it and build a brand around it and,
• 1:23:52
  it's weird, you know, it's a crazy cycle, but now I get to mix it up and bump shoulders with pro athletes and the pro hockey teams and the NFL teams. And I get to do that every single day. And it's such a cool thing to think about. Like, yeah, it didn't really work out, you know, being a player, but
• 1:24:08
  I'm maybe in a better position now than I would have been if I had been the best hockey player growing up. Right. So, and I'm certainly more satisfied with it with a lot longer runway than, than I would have had as an athlete. So there's so many silver linings of blessings throughout this thing. If you're passionate about it and you have that in your belly and you want to start a business, you've got it. That's, that's what it takes. It doesn't take a, you know, a,
• 1:24:33
  genius level IQ or a big old trust fund or anything like that. You can, you can do it with what you've got. And I think we're both good examples of that. I'm not sure if you were taking a shot at me or if you were giving me
• 1:24:45
  I think we have to have a master's degree in falling down and a doctorate and getting back up. I've got it. I've got it. I mean, I've got a master's in falling down my face. I know all about it. So just wait, there'll be more. That's what I would say. There's more coming. You're still a young man. I know. I wish I could give you a magic wand and say it's that smooth sailing from here on out. But as long as we're breathing, that's part of what life makes life life.
• 1:25:13
  As long as you're breathing, you're going to have strife and you're going to have puzzles to solve and things to do. And that's what keeps you alive. The day that you don't have anything to do, you're going to get bored. Amen. Well, thank you, Kelly. It's been a pleasure talking to you today. And I hope that you were able to get at least a little bit of good sound bites out of this. I'm not the best on these podcasts. I'm not typically the guy from the camera, but it's always fun.
• 1:25:40
  Thanks, brother. Appreciate you. I'll call you later. All right. Sounds great. All right, everyone. Thank you. Hopefully you got as much out of that as I did. I would highly recommend you go back and re-listen to it because he sprinkled in so many good nuggets in there. Thank you. Please rate it. Please share it. And until next week, be harder than life.
• 1:25:59
  Please rate and share this podcast. I'm active on all social platforms and love to hear from my Segal supporters. Each and every episode is sponsored by my company, National Technology Management, the easiest and best IT company to do business with, delivering peace of mind with technology every day, even simplifying cybersecurity. Visit TrustNTM.com for more info. Until next week, be harder than life.