Latest / The Failure Gap / A Conversation With Ken Wilkinson, Founder & CEO of Layer 10

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A Conversation With Ken Wilkinson, Founder & CEO of Layer 10 · The Failure Gap

• Julie Williamson, Ph.D. (00:00) Hello and welcome to the Failure Gap, where we talk with leaders about closing the space between agreement and alignment. We love talking with interesting people and today we're joined by Ken Wilkinson. Ken is the founder and CEO of Layer 10. At Layer 10, Ken and his colleagues like to redefine the intersection of the digital and physical world. Ken, welcome. Yeah, thanks for having me. Yeah, I think this is going to be such an interesting conversation. I know that at the beginning of 2024, you published some predictions on LinkedIn about what was coming for the industry. So we might just want to touch base on a couple of those and see what you're thinking. And then most recently you published also a paper about property technology. And I think that's probably a space where there are a lot, there's probably a lot of agreement in that space that we need investment in that technology. And it's tough to align to. But before we get into all of that, I would love to give you the opportunity just to share a little bit about your leadership story, the twists and turns that have brought you to being the CEO and founder of Layer 10. And I'm especially interested because you and I go way back to the 90s where we both, we intersected at a company that I think we both really enjoyed called American Management Systems back in the day, no longer with us, but our rest in peace, AMS, it's now CGI. Yeah, you don't have to give us all the all the dirt and what's happened in the last 30 years, but catch us up and tell us a little bit about how you got where you are. Yeah. So, you know, I was only at AMS for a short period of time, but it was my first step into consulting. actually started as a Cobalt CICS programmer after graduating from the University of Florida, go Gators. And then a couple of years after that, got into consulting with AMS and have pretty much stayed in that space for my entire career since. you know, I moved up as you do through the management chain and started managing projects, managing teams and moving up the ladder in that way. And then I decided because of some other things that were going on in my life, I was going to get out of consulting. was going to, my focus at that time was really, I had sort of created a niche in project management offices. And within the firm, I was establishing myself as kind of a leader in that space. And we had a client that was building their PMO and they asked for me to come on and lead it. I decided to leave consulting and took to the twists and turns portion of your question. It didn't take me long to realize that I was born to be a consultant. That sitting in an office, making something, just running something and having it operate as opposed to growing it and creating something special was just not where I wanted to be. But I had to go through that to come to that realization. And eventually I got laid off from that job because they saw it wasn't as a fit for them as much as it wasn't a fit for me. But from there, that's where I launched Layer 10. So it was, as I say, a blessing in disguise. Yeah. You know, I so appreciate that idea that sometimes you have to try something. At Kerikin's group, we say sometimes action precedes clarity. Sometimes you have to take action and try something before you get really clear about what you want to do and what you don't want to do. So it sounds like you had that moment where you thought this just isn't for me and I need to try something different. And here you are, however many years later with layer 10 going strong. Nine years later. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's really exciting. And by the way, congratulations on that. As we all know, a lot of startups don't last past the first 18 months. So nine years later, that's really exciting to be able to say that you've built that. Yeah, and for us, it's been an entirely smooth road. No, no high style laws, just complete, just straight up. I'm sure I believe you can. do believe you. Well, you know, we always like to start this dive into the space between agreement and alignment, which, by the way, I think most small business owners and startups and entrepreneurs would say they agree that they should have that steady state growth. But life doesn't allow you to align to that. No, not usually, not for long periods of time anyway. Exactly. Plus, you know, that's where the learning happens, right? Both when you're tending off and when you're digging out. So we all know that that's where the blessings come. But hey, before we get into too much about work, we like to just hear from our guests about, you know, for you personally, what are some of the things that you kind of agree with for yourself and either struggle to align to, or you've had success in pushing through and getting aligned and and doing something that has changed for yourself the direction that you're headed. Yeah, I think, you know, for me, it's finding that alignment with what you're understanding, what your true purpose is in your life. And then how does your business align with that? How does the work that you do align with that? And you don't have to run your own business to have that alignment, but you have to start, I think, at a very high level. And for me, it's faith and family. Those are the things that come first to me. And if I know that I'm aligned with those things, then everything can, that's my North Star. That's my guiding light. That's what makes, keeps me honest and makes, know, highlights any areas where I am deviating from that path. So long as I stay on that path, if I'm being true to my faith and my family, then that becomes my broader why. And... That's become, I'm a big Simon Sinek fan and the book is right behind me. And one of the more dog-eared and tattered copies of a book that's my shelf. yeah, it's come, he sort of pioneered it. At least that was the first time I ever heard it. And it's become a little bit overused. Maybe it's become a little tired, but I think it's so critical when you're talking about alignment. It's understanding if you don't know why you're doing it, I don't know how you get there. If you have a target, but there's not a clear, clearly understood, communicated reason for targeting that, I don't know how you stay on that path. No, you know, there's an old expression. If you don't know where you're going on your road, we'll get you there. And I think that it's not only knowing where you're going, but why you're going there. 100%. And that, so the other thing in sort of my personal life that is somewhat tangential to business is, the work that my wife and I do with Trailhead Community. So Trailhead is a nonprofit organization that is building housing for adults with intellectual and developmental disabilities. And there are tens of millions of these, we call them kids, because they're our kids. We have a 20-year-old autistic daughter. And there are tens of millions of these kids living with parents over the age of 60. And there's no public money, no public facilities for this. And that, and we, the trailhead became a client of ours at layer 10, and then we joined the board and now my wife Zara and I are presidents of the board, co-presidents of the board. And that's something that really keeps us grounded that what we're doing has a greater purpose of aligning technology to the built environment, can have an application beyond just conference room AV and access control and video monitoring. Can really help create community and living for this very deserving community. Yeah, and I would add to that safety, So when we think about technology, yeah, and the intersection of, and having read a little bit about Trailhead as well, I think there's that intersection of technology and living space or property development, what that looks like, that can also build in safety for people who need it. That was one of the critical components of the design strategy for Trailhead. It was community and safety. Those were the two biggest things. How do we keep these kids safe? And how do we somewhat counterintuitively maybe use technology to create community? Whereas technology is generally seen as a divisive force in community. How can we take the opposite approach and use it to bring people together? Yeah. Yeah. I think that's so exciting. You know, Ken, I'm interested just in what you might say to listeners who have an idea. I think there are a lot of people in the world who have an idea that volunteering their time or engaging in something like what you and your wife do with Trailhead is something that they agree would be a good thing to do. But they do struggle sometimes to figure out how to take that first step. Like, where could they point their talents or their time or their energy or their money? and how do they get involved? What would you say to people who are maybe looking for an impetus to inspire them to get involved in something that fuels them? Yeah, think, you know, it's great question that ideas are easy. Ideas are a dime a dozen. They're worth nothing if they just stay in your head or on a piece of paper and a note on your phone. It's only the execution of an idea that brings value to yourself, to your family, to the community, whatever that idea is. You have to execute on it. the world is filled with distractions and naysayers and people that will tell you that, well, if it was such a good idea, somebody would have already thought of it. It would already be done. And it's easy to lose focus. on what's important. So if that idea comes from, comes from your heart and it comes from a need and you're able to clearly articulate what that is, then that becomes your why for doing that. And I think that's really what keeps you on the path. And once you make that determination and you have your family behind you, your immediate family, your spouse, your children, cause a lot of times you're, parents, your siblings, your best friends, they will be the biggest naysayers. They will tell you, are you crazy? You're going to leave your secure job and go start a company? You're 40 years old. What are you thinking? And that's that when I started my first entrepreneurial endeavor, I was in my 40s. And you know, we have to that point, all these publications that have 40 under 40 and 20 under 20, how about 40 over 40? Can we get some? Can we get some wheels on that, some legs on that? What's so great about being under 40 and doing it? Let's get some recognition here. So sorry for that brief tangent there. Then I think it's seeking out mentors and they can be real live personal mentors, people that you know or that you can get an introduction to that have done what you're trying to do. And it doesn't have to be an exact alignment. Hopefully it isn't. But somebody who made that leap. who had an idea and they executed it. And you pursue that relationship and you try to build something there. And if you can't find that personally, then you could find it virtually. There's so much information available. I'm still a book reader. I open actual book. I don't slide pages like this on a Kindle. I have a Kindle, couldn't adopt it. Even though I'm a tech guy, I'm still an old school paper book guy. I like to flip the pages. And, you know, so there are opportunities there, opportunities with YouTube, just to find people who can help guide you. There are charlatans out there that are going to ask for a lot of money, but there's a lot of free information that can be had to help guide you and launch you on that journey. I appreciate that. I think that idea that you can ask for help and that you can look for inspiration, right? Not my strength. Asking for help is not my strength. That might be something that you agree is a good idea, but you have trouble aligning to you, right? 100%. Yeah, yeah. Well, know, Ken, when I think about this space between agreement and alignment, especially for businesses, people who are trying to grow their businesses, I'm sure that at Layerton, you probably see with a lot of your clients, especially, some interesting spaces that need to be closed where people agree that something is a good idea. but they're struggling as a business to really make it happen. And I just happened to catch one of your latest posts around property technology and that caught my eye because that is something that I think we've seen other industries go through. We saw the financial services industry really struggle to adopt technology and we've seen healthcare really struggle in that space because they require big investments and bold moves on the part of leadership and a lot of execution. And you mentioned earlier, It can't just be a great idea. It has to be grounded in execution. You've got to grind it out day to day to make it happen. And I'm wondering what your observations have been with your clients around what are some of those hot areas where there's a lot of agreement that something's a good idea, but there's a struggle to bring it to life. Yeah, you know, in the nine years that we've been in business, approaching nine years, that The conversation has really changed. When we first started, we were coming into the space that we were effectively inventing on our own. Even in that time, we haven't really found anybody who does what we do in the way that we do it. So we were going out into full blue ocean waters, which was great. There were no sharks swimming around. There was no blood in the water. But the challenge that that presents is explaining why you're prospect needs to hire you. They've never heard of you or what you've done before. And so our challenge at the beginning was telling that story. But I think that really sharpened us in what we do. Where we grew in sort how we tell our message and the specifics around what we do in the first 18 months than we had since then. And we set out with a fairly narrow scope. And that very quickly as we started socializing the idea, very quickly evolved into the much grander scope of what we do now. And so to your point, now there is how the conversation has changed over that time is it's more often we get calls. I know I need help. I know I need to deploy technology in my space. I've got everything else. I've got the architects who are designing the space itself. have landscape architects that are designing the exteriors. I have interior designers. I have engineers that are bringing it all together, but nobody is looking at that technology. So in our early years, it was explaining why they needed us. Now they know they need us. They just don't know what they need. And so for us, it's important that we are aligning the technology that we deploy in the physical space with the user experience. This kind of ties in, I kind of just stumbled on this, it sort of ties into that why. If you don't have a use case, if you don't understand why you are doing it, then you shouldn't be making that investment. And for us, it's critical that we are transparent with our clients so they know that they can trust us to not just sell technology for technology's sake. For everything, there must be a purpose. for every dollar you spend, because it is expensive. Like you mentioned, technology is not cheap. So it's hard for people to write that check, especially over the last couple of years with the challenges we've had in the commercial real estate industry with interest rates and inflation and other macroeconomic headwinds. The industry is really struggling right now. so technology gets cut out. So our conversation has to change a little bit. We have agreement. on something should be done. What we don't have alignment on is not necessarily that desire, but it's the financial capacity of what we can maintain right now. So we've pulled back on scope quite a bit in the last couple of years and focused on, this situation is not going to last forever. So let's implement the infrastructure that we need so that we can respond tomorrow or next year or in five years. that while it's just dirt on the ground and open walls, we're putting in that physical infrastructure that can support a technology upgrade in the future as best as we can possibly predict. You know, it just occurred to me, Ken, why don't you give our listeners just the quick overview of what you and Layar 10 really focus on from a property development perspective? Because I think that will help people really appreciate how you are helping property development people through this question of What should we be doing from a technology enablement perspective? And how do we future proof some of the buildings that are going in today? Yeah, so when we started, we were really focused on the office space. But what we quickly determined is that it's less about implementing the technology than it is designing the experience. And so what we have crafted is a design first human centric product agnostic approach to how technology gets implemented in the built environment in physical space. We work across all different build types from office to multifamily to healthcare, hospitality. The model is the same because we don't lead with the technology, we lead with the design and the human experience, then it doesn't matter what you're building. And we believe there's a layer of technology that is critical for every space that you design and build. And so we began this consultancy doing that design piece, and then we expanded to also start managing the implementations and sort of a technology general contractor model so that we contract with all the integrators. We don't make the products and we don't install the products personally. We hire with subcontractors who are experts in those fields. We're not trying to redefine their space. We're trying to help them connect the appropriate technology with the developers, the architects, the property operators to make sure that we're really elevating their building, whatever it is that they're creating. That's so interesting. And it actually brought to mind for me, I have a friend over in the UK who has horses, and they recently built a barn. and the technology that they put in that space, right, to manage the temperature, to be able to check water levels and to have cameras, have eyes on, right, what's happening in the stalls. I thought that was so interesting that as they were building, they were thinking about, what do we want to be able to have in this space from a technology perspective? So it's not just, you know, the next office space or the next home, they're using it in a stable, right? A horse barn, yes. I'm going to steal that. That's going to be my new example. used to use the example of a coat closet, but I'm going to use a horse barn example now. That's great. And I just think the point right is that you can be thinking about these things ahead of time to make it easier when you want to turn the technology on or when you want to have access to it. So I love that you and your team are really, as you put it, redefining that intersection of the digital and physical space. so that we can take the best advantage of what's available to us today while also being prepared for what might come, knowing that what might come is variable. We can't predict it. Like, who knew that we were going to have to go from USB, what is it, USB, whatever to USBC, right? USB-A to USBC, yeah. Thank you, USB-A to, I couldn't remember if it was A or B, but yeah. Technology changes quickly and there are ways that we can prepare for the inevitable, right? Which is what's it gonna look like in a few years? And you mentioned future proofing in your previous question. And that's a question I get a lot at conferences, on panels, is how do I future proof my space? And I really shy away from that question for a couple of reasons. One, proofing to me denotes sort of a defensive posture. that I'm trying to prevent something from happening rather than trying to capture an opportunity that comes down the road. so we have tried to coin the term future ready instead of future proofing. The second reason that I shy away from that question is I have no idea what the future brings. Actually, Jeff Bezos, he answered this question once saying, I don't know what the future will bring. but I know there's gonna be more of it. That's me significantly paraphrasing, shortening that, but there's not gonna be less technology. There aren't gonna be fewer opportunities. So prepare for that, prepare for that inevitably, not that it's going to be AI, holographic, robotic, security guards. Don't try to make that prediction, but there's going to be something. So how can we prepare? How can we ready our future for that inevitability? I really appreciate that shift in language. And I think you're right. Future proofing is about a defensive posture. And this idea of being future ready helps people to lean in and to say, what is possible? Like, how do I get ready for that? How do I get ready for the inevitable, which is that change is going to happen and new things are going to come up? But speaking of predicting the future, I just want to take a quick glance here at this list that I have of things that you predicted at the beginning of 2024. I haven't looked at this since I wrote it, so this will be interesting. That's okay. You know, there's a few things in here that I found really interesting. One was around AI. Well, there were two around AI, and it's continuing to revolutionize business and also have an influence on the built environment. When you think about AI over the course of the last year, what are the things that really stand out to you that are exciting to see but that also might be spaces where people again are sort of stuck in agreement that yeah, we got to do something about AI, but we're going to kick that can down the road or just kind of maybe get to it next year. What's your thought on AI? Well, you know, I think the impact on the built environment is still, it's slowly rolling out. I think it's being implemented in the development of space and in a finished space in two ways. But I think there's a significant amount of growth that can happen there. In the first, in how the environment is being built is architecture is a field, in my opinion, that really has the opportunity to change exponentially with the adoption of AI. Architecture is a grind. It is a difficult business, and it is drawing and redrawing, and it's somewhat... I was an architecture student for one semester and it took me about two weeks to realize this is not the career that I want. I did not do enough research at the time and it is a very difficult program, especially at the University of Florida and I jumped into it and yeah, very quickly realized that that is a grind. That is just not the life I want for myself. But it's funny that now so many years later, 30 years later, I come back to working in that space in commercial real estate working alongside architects. it's kind of funny how that works, but I think that is an industry that has the opportunity to evolve significantly with the adoption of artificial intelligence and using it also to predict on the job site itself when we're building, using it to predict potential failures or conflicts and schedules. building a space is It's a challenging endeavor and I'd never done that before I started doing it with layer 10. I'd never worked in that space, but the coordination of all the different trades, of all the different technologies, not just technology from an IT perspective, but they're plumbing and mechanical and electrical and the physical space itself and paint and carpeting and all that coordination, all these people being in a space. and trying to work towards the same goal, but also each with their individual objectives and bringing those people together to work towards a common cause. And then introducing technology, which traditionally is an infant in the building of things. It's fun. I will say that. It's one of the first things we learned about when we started this business. It's actually a lot of fun to do. And then the second area where AI is starting to make an impact is in the operations of a space in predicting patterns of behavior of the people who occupy the space and responding accordingly with security and HVAC, heating and cooling, lighting and things, understanding the trends, the occupancy of a space so that your systems, your building can react dynamically, not just on a schedule or on a switch. So it responds to how it's being used without human interaction. And that's the, we've been collecting data for the last five years, 10 years or so in building management systems. Those are the systems that run those, the electrical, heating, cooling, lighting. And now we have an opportunity to respond to that data with the application of artificial intelligence. It's so exciting to think about it. I've done quite a bit of work in real estate development as well, and I think it is a lot of fun. It's also a lot of high wire work, right? People are constantly on the tightrope. No, Yeah, constantly working the plan, right? Working the plan and reworking the plan. And I think that that is part of, for people who thrive in this business, like yourself, I think that's part of what makes it so fun. And hopefully AI can help alleviate some of that as we go forward. But I suspect people will find other high wires to walk on. people who are geared that way are just geared that way. There was another, I always want to give you kudos. There were a couple in here. One was the gradual easing of interest rates. I think you got that one right? A too gradual for my taste, but it's gradual. But it's happening. It's happening. It's happening. There was another one that I thought was really interesting, which was mixed outcomes in office to residential conversion. I think we are seeing, I know we're in Colorado and there's a lot of concern over the cost of living and being able to provide affordable housing and affordable spaces for people. And I do see, we're seeing projects pop up around the Denver metro area where office spaces are getting converted into residential. As a matter of fact, just a little trivia for you, the AMS building that I started in over on 2nd and Van Gordon is now residential space. So it's been, yeah, it's been converted from office space to residential space. Yeah. yeah, that's where my partner and I met each other and now it's an apartment complex. One of the many AMS stories like that. But I think that migration is continuing to happen. at the beginning of 2024, you clearly were tapping into that as a trend. Where do you see that taking us as we go forward? That's a great question. So I do think that I was probably on the pessimistic side of that model, thinking about, just to use one non-technical example, think of the plumbing. So it sounds easy. Well, I'll just take every office and I'll turn it into an apartment. Yes, but all those offices shared three toilets. So unless you're turning it into student housing, which seems like an easier conversion, you have to redo all of the plumbing. You have to redo all the electrical. You have to redo all of the heating and cooling because they aren't per unit. It's for that floor, if not for the entire building. So the challenges from a mechanical perspective, I thought would be too big to overcome. But I left a little bit of a window of optimism that people are talking about it enough that maybe there is something here. Maybe this has legs and maybe this will actually come to fruition. And we are seeing some projects. Regrettably, we have not had the opportunity to work on one of those, but still pursuing them and hoping to have that opportunity because we love those challenges. Every day on the job, whether we're designing or whether we're building or whether we're supporting existing clients is different. And that's one thing we love about the business, but it's every new project that comes along. When we first started working with Trailhead and an entirely new community that we were building for, designing for, that was exciting for us. So we'd love to move into new spaces and try something new. So I think... If you put me on the spot and you ask me to make a 2025 prediction in this, think we'll start to see a slowdown. I think that the improvement in interest rates and the reduction of inflation will accelerate, improve for the industry going into next year and throughout next year. And that we will therefore might accelerate the return to office. and we will have a need to repurpose offices. and it will change, you know, there's such a trickle down effect to all of that as far as how deals get done and for developers that they're considering building an office or a multifamily apartment complex. What that is, there are so many levers to pull to figure out, okay, what makes the most sense for this space for our market for, and So I can see that starting to slow down, that conversion rate starting to slow down in 25. Yeah, I think we are continuing to learn about what people both want and are willing to do, both from a living space perspective and an office space perspective. So it is an emerging space. And I think that you tapped into it, obviously, at the beginning of the year is something that is worth keeping an eye on if you're in development if you're in the development space and also will be interesting for communities to continue to grapple with as they think about how do we be a community where there is affordable housing and there is office space for people and we have the kind of economy that we're trying to drive which is fueled in different ways by residential versus commercial space So for sure and affordable housing has just been hit so hard, you know, it's it's Very difficult to build affordable housing, right? with all the challenges that we have in the industry and then to then, you we all want more affordable housing, especially here in the Denver area, that it's very hard to come by. And now the numbers, it's almost impossible to do because the numbers just don't make sense. Without being able to pay market or charge market rates, it's very, very difficult to make those numbers work. Yeah. Yeah. I think it is one of those things that as a society almost we all, that affordable housing makes a lot of sense and we want that for people and it is very very difficult to get to that number right now because of macroeconomic and microeconomic influences that are playing out in front of us. Yeah for sure. We need some alignment. We have agreement. We need alignment. Yeah but it takes that's a really tricky one right because it takes alignment across industries, across government and private you know public-private partnerships. All sorts of things. So yeah, we've got a lot of work to do in this, the space of affordable housing. Yeah. Well, we can't solve that problem today, but I think we can figure out how we get ourselves aligned to our why and what our highest order purposes as individuals. And sometimes even those small contributions can make a big difference in the greater scheme of things. Yeah. Yeah. I would love to just hear from you, Ken, if there were two, three, four things that you would encourage people to really focus on as they try to move from agreement to alignment on some of their highest aspirations. just you've shared a few with us around mentorship and learning and reading and continuing to grow in your mindset, be really focused on figuring out why you want to do something and you're latching onto that and not letting it go. What are some of the things that you would tell our listeners are your Ken's tips and tricks for moving from agreement to alignment. Well, I think a lot of it is, you know, there are tried and true practices. There are starting with your why. There's clear and transparent communication with your team. And I think a lot of those line up to or they all fall into the umbrella of intentionality. It's if you are thoughtful and intentional, with what you were trying to do. And I think those things that aligns with your why, aligns with your purpose, then your communication is gonna drive from that intentionality. And that helps bring people together towards that common cause. And that's something we preach with layer 10 is just, it's being intentional and understanding that, I mentioned Simon Sinek, Jaco Willink is another virtual mentor of mine, although I at least have met him. I do have a picture with him at one of his conferences, his is another book, actually all of his books I think are behind me. And to sum up his extreme ownership principles, every problem is a leadership problem. Every problem is a leadership problem. So it doesn't matter to what level in the organization or on the team that something has fallen short or something has failed. The problem starts at the top and taking ownership of that. And I think that also aligns with that idea of intentionality, of ownership, and that if I'm setting the path, then I have to make sure that all the pieces are in place and there's a clear alignment to the goals and what we're doing. And not everybody is going to agree. And you can't err on the side of therefore surrounding yourself with people who only agree with you. That is a recipe for disaster as well. You have to have people that will say, Yeah, but and that every time you say, know, considering this new direction, you need somebody on the team that says, yeah, but what about this? What about that? And keeps you grounded. And sometimes you won't come to an agreement with your immediate circle. But it's, it's. If you build, if you put enough capital into those relationships, then you're able to make a withdrawal when you need to. And then if they turn out to be right and it was a mistake, but they aligned with you, then you have to go back and say that you have to go back and admit to that mistake and say, all right, you're right. I was wrong on that one. Now, how do we go? How do we move forward? Yeah. know, Jeff Bezos likes to say, one of the 10 principles of leadership from Amazon early on was you can disagree and commit. So you can disagree and for don't commit and go forward. Right. And I think that's what you're topping into is you don't agreement is not consensus, right? It's about how do we figure out how to what is the plan forward that we can all get behind, even if we disagree with each other about some of the details. So I love that you're bringing that one back up too, because I think that's a great principle for leadership is it's possible to disagree and commit. Yeah, I completely agree. Yeah. Ken, if there was something in this world that you could get people to align to and deliver on together. outside of affordable housing, which never goes off today. What would you love to see, whether for your family or for your inner circle or over at Trail Builders or wherever it is that you have a space to do that? What would you love to get people aligned to deliver on together? I've got to go with Trailhead right now. We just opened our first building in October and we have gone through so many challenges on this project and we're doing this as a nonprofit organization that's built 83 units in Littleton, Colorado. It is half rentals, half condo. It's about 60 % for adults with IDD and the remainder for active seniors and workforce housing. So there are 20 affordable units we have built into this property. the founders of Trailhead went into this with all just naivety that probably was a blessing because had they known how hard it was going to be, they maybe never would have taken that first step. But with every step forward, they learned lessons and applied those lessons we had. what would you say a premature groundbreaking where we were signing the papers for financing had a groundbreaking ceremony, the news cameras. the helmets, the shovels, everything. And then that financing fell through within hours of that groundbreaking. Now, we ended up with a much better lender with much better terms, but it's those challenges that I think really help us grow as people and as business owners and employees that having that greater purpose is really what drives us and specifically around the adult neurodiverse community. That's where my wife Zara and my, hearts are with this community, with our 20 year old daughter who, you know, these are the things that keep the parents of neurodiverse children awake at night. It's what happens when her mother and I are no longer here. And it is such a significant problem. We're just making it dent here in Colorado and Littleton. And there are pockets of this. just last night in our board meeting, we were talking about how can we make a greater impact? Hey, we've moved into the building. We still have some growing pains. We still have some things. The kitchen equipment isn't in yet. The media room isn't finished yet, but we're closing on units. People are moving in and how can we expand the impact beyond just these units in Littleton to Colorado? to the US and to the world. So that's really what we're looking forward to at Building that template of successful practices. Exactly. How do those then expand into something? I think it is you put a dent in the universe and it has an impact that might be bigger than you could ever imagine. It sounds like a trailhead. That's what you're doing. And so I just want to say thank you for all of the work that you and your wife and the team at Trailhead are taking on. and the work that you're doing at layer 10 to make sure that this intersection of the digital and physical space is a thriving one and one that as we look towards new and redevelopment opportunities that companies are taking this into consideration and thinking about how do we make sure building spaces are future ready and that they're ready to go as we learn more about the emerging technologies that are going to be available to us in the coming years. I think that's really exciting. So I appreciate you sharing. your passion both for Trailhead and for Layer 10. And thank you so much for your thoughts on what it takes to move from agreement to alignment on some of these really big issues that we're faced with both in business and in our lives. I appreciate your time. And I know that all of our listeners are going to walk away with some great ideas about how they can take some of this into their own work and their own lives. So thank you, Ken, for being here. Thank you, Julie, for having me. It was great catching up, great seeing you. And yeah, I wish you the best of luck. think you've got a great show. You're onto a great concept here and I look forward to listening to future editions. Thank you and I just want to put in a plug. I know that you're writing a book so maybe we'll have you back on after that's out and you can tell us a little bit about what you've got going on there. I would love to be a repeat guest. we'll plan on it. For all of our listeners thank you so much for listening to this episode. Remember Do like and subscribe and to share with your colleagues if you found this interesting. And we'd love to hear from you. If you have any suggestions for guests or topics, reach out and we will see what we can do. Thanks everyone and have a great rest of your day.