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Pope Save America · Pod Save America

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• 1:38
  Speaker 1: Welcome to Pod Save America. I'm Jon Favreau.
• 1:40
  Speaker 2: I'm Dan Pfeiffer.
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: On today's show, we got lots to talk about, Dan.
• 1:45
  Speaker 2: So much news today. It won't stop.
• 1:47
  Speaker 1: Trump's trade deal with the U.K., the Republican plan to
• 1:50
  Speaker 1: cut Medicaid, the government trying to disappear people to Libya,
• 1:54
  Speaker 1: a January 6th activist losing his confirmation fight to be D.C.
• 1:58
  Speaker 1: 's top federal prosecutor, a new Maha Surgeon General nominee,
• 2:03
  Speaker 1: and Joe and Jill Biden's appearance on The View. You'll
• 2:07
  Speaker 1: also hear my interview with our pal Leah Lippman, strict
• 2:09
  Speaker 1: scrutiny co-host and new author of the book Lawless, which
• 2:13
  Speaker 1: comes out next week. We'll talk about that and all
• 2:16
  Speaker 1: the latest legal news. But let's start with the big
• 2:20
  Speaker 1: news of the day. We got a woke pope from
• 2:23
  Speaker 1: the south side of Chicago.
• 2:26
  Speaker 2: The warm Barack Obama's heart.
• 2:28
  Speaker 1: Look at that. On Thursday, it's Reverend Wright.
• 2:34
  Speaker 2: Who's the one person in the studio laughing at that joke?
• 2:38
  Speaker 3: Reid.
• 2:39
  Speaker 2: Obviously.
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  Speaker 1: Obama bro.
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  Speaker 2: You have to be a 40 plus Obama bro to
• 2:43
  Speaker 2: get that joke.
• 2:45
  Speaker 1: On Thursday, Cardinal Robert Prevost became Pope Leo XIV, the
• 2:50
  Speaker 1: first American pope, also a citizen of Peru where he
• 2:53
  Speaker 1: served for two decades, first as a missionary and ultimately
• 2:56
  Speaker 1: a bishop. Most importantly, he seems to be a poster.
• 3:01
  Speaker 1: A poster who has retweeted criticism about J.D. Vance, Trump's
• 3:04
  Speaker 1: immigration policy, and Republican inaction on gun violence, among other things. Dan,
• 3:10
  Speaker 1: what do you think of our new pontiff?
• 3:12
  Speaker 2: I think if we're going to get a pope... we
• 3:13
  Speaker 2: should have a American woke Pope from Chicago. That seems great.
• 3:17
  Speaker 2: Especially one who hates JD Vance.
• 3:19
  Speaker 1: It's a, I say woke Pope cause it sounds good,
• 3:21
  Speaker 1: but it is more of a, he had more of
• 3:24
  Speaker 1: a never Trump bulwark Pope.
• 3:25
  Speaker 2: Yes. I, that's the, I just saw, uh, that was
• 3:28
  Speaker 2: Tommy and love. It's joke earlier. He's a bulwark Pope.
• 3:30
  Speaker 1: There's a, yeah. I mean a lot, a lot of
• 3:32
  Speaker 1: people posting that.
• 3:33
  Speaker 2: Oh, it's so weird. They, they claim that they, I
• 3:36
  Speaker 2: saw love it to the T for trademark. Um, I
• 3:41
  Speaker 2: mean like, Judging wokeness on a Pope scale, right? Like
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  Speaker 2: the Pope is going to have a series of views
• 3:47
  Speaker 2: that we do not love on abortion, LGBTQ rights, all
• 3:52
  Speaker 2: of those things. But the fact that he has leaned
• 3:54
  Speaker 2: so hard and very recently into a humane view of immigration,
• 4:00
  Speaker 2: how we treat migrants, that is a direct opposition to
• 4:02
  Speaker 2: how Trump is doing it, seems very positive for what
• 4:05
  Speaker 2: is true. Like obviously a major political issue in this country,
• 4:08
  Speaker 2: but a global issue for the next generation. And also
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  Speaker 2: just enjoyable that the MAGA right is going bananas about this.
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  Speaker 2: They're so upset. They're so angry. Like you, because we
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  Speaker 2: talked this morning when we first, before we saw the tweets,
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  Speaker 2: we were like, when is Trump going to take credit
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  Speaker 2: for an American Pope? And now his base is freaking
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  Speaker 2: out about the woke Pope. It's so funny.
• 4:30
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: I mean, I'll just, I'll speak as the resident Catholic here.
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  Speaker 1: You know, I grew up in the Catholic church is
• 4:36
  Speaker 1: like pretty conservative, right? Just with, on a lot of
• 4:40
  Speaker 1: issues that we probably care about, though. you know, on immigration,
• 4:45
  Speaker 1: on poverty, on war and peace and the death penalty,
• 4:48
  Speaker 1: it's always been more progressive than not. And I do
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  Speaker 1: think that in the Francis era, and especially since Francis
• 4:55
  Speaker 1: appointed like, I think 80% of the cardinals that voted,
• 4:59
  Speaker 1: the leaders of the Catholic church are now leaning into
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  Speaker 1: sort of the more progressive positions on issues that they've
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  Speaker 1: always had, or at least the church has mostly always had,
• 5:08
  Speaker 1: but on issues of sexual orientation, gender identity, abortion, Church
• 5:14
  Speaker 1: is still pretty conservative, though even Francis, you know, he
• 5:16
  Speaker 1: made some little headway on that. But it is a
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  Speaker 1: generally traditionalist conservative institution. So I think this is very
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  Speaker 1: good news as someone who really wants to see the
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  Speaker 1: church continue in the direction that Francis was pushing the church.
• 5:31
  Speaker 2: And as someone who likes to pick a Twitter fight
• 5:33
  Speaker 2: with J.D. Vance, you probably feel some affinity with this pope.
• 5:36
  Speaker 1: The piece that the pope, the now pope, shared, it
• 5:39
  Speaker 1: was about, you know, J.D. Vance's What was it called? Ordo, Adoramus,
• 5:45
  Speaker 1: whatever that thing. Basically, it's this theory that he fucking
• 5:48
  Speaker 1: made up that he didn't make it up. But it's
• 5:52
  Speaker 1: not really the theory. It's not really official policy of
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  Speaker 1: the Catholic Church that you're supposed to love the people
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  Speaker 1: around you. And then as you go out in concentric circles,
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  Speaker 1: you don't have to care that much about other people.
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  Speaker 1: So it's sort of that's the gist.
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  Speaker 3: Yes.
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  Speaker 2: Seems everyone contrary to some parts of the golden rule,
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  Speaker 2: just as you.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah. So the piece that the Pope shared says, it
• 6:13
  Speaker 1: ought to be clear that Catholics cannot support a rhetoric
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  Speaker 1: that demonizes immigrants as dangerously criminal simply because they have
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  Speaker 1: crossed the border in search of a better life. It
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  Speaker 1: ought to be clear that Catholics cannot celebrate aggressive deportation enforcement,
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  Speaker 1: a spectacle. It ought to be clear that Catholics cannot
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  Speaker 1: accept a theory of love that pats itself on the
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  Speaker 1: back for putting some of the poorest among us farthest
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  Speaker 1: from our concern and charity. Love that.
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  Speaker 2: Seems great.
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  Speaker 1: Love that. His last tweet, his last retweet was after
• 6:38
  Speaker 1: the Trump Bukele meeting. And it said, do you not
• 6:41
  Speaker 1: see the suffering? Is your conscious not disturbed? How can
• 6:43
  Speaker 1: you stay quiet? I mean, you know, we love our
• 6:46
  Speaker 1: American Pope, our Chicago Pope. And Steve Bannon apparently called
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  Speaker 1: this like last week. He was like, I'm worried that
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  Speaker 1: they're going to go with, that they could go with
• 6:56
  Speaker 1: Cardinal Prevost because he would be the most progressive pick.
• 7:00
  Speaker 4: Huh.
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  Speaker 3: Interesting.
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  Speaker 5: Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: Now he's not the most progressive pick, but that's what,
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  Speaker 1: that's what Bannon said.
• 7:04
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: And Laura Loomer is just yelling about a woke Marxist Pope.
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  Speaker 2: I mean, if Laura Loomer loomers the Pope, then she
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  Speaker 2: is all powerful.
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  Speaker 1: Her woke Marxist Pope thing, of course, has gone viral.
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  Speaker 1: And I just retweeted this, but someone posted, sung to
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  Speaker 1: the tune of Pink Pony Club. And now I can't
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  Speaker 1: get it out of my head.
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  Speaker 2: That's so good. Is Pink Pope Club an episode title?
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  Speaker 2: Woke Marxist Pope.
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  Speaker 1: All right. Even though America has given the world a
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  Speaker 1: new pope, we must get back to talking about our
• 7:38
  Speaker 1: worst export, Donald Trump and his global trade war. Fed
• 7:41
  Speaker 1: Chair Jerome Powell announced this week that the central bank
• 7:43
  Speaker 1: won't be cutting interest rates just yet and said that
• 7:46
  Speaker 1: Trump's tariffs will likely lead to higher prices and unemployment,
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  Speaker 1: potentially the stagflation scenario that's basically the worst case for
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  Speaker 1: the economy right now. But clearly, Powell hasn't read the
• 7:58
  Speaker 1: art of the deal lately because on Thursday morning, Trump
• 8:00
  Speaker 1: announced a trade deal of sorts with the UK. There
• 8:03
  Speaker 1: will still be a 10% tax on everything we buy
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  Speaker 1: that's made in the UK, except for cars like Rolls
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  Speaker 1: Royces and Bentleys. And I guess they're going to drop
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  Speaker 1: tariffs on some US exports. So just amazing work, Mr.
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  Speaker 3: Trump.
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  Speaker 1: You've done it again. Trump announced the deal in the Oval,
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  Speaker 1: followed by the ritual fluffing from his staff. Let's listen.
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  Speaker 4: This was the president's deal, and people think, oh, that's
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  Speaker 4: not the way it works. If you got to sit
• 8:28
  Speaker 4: next to him, I have the best dealmaker to my left.
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  Speaker 4: He's the closer. He gets deals done that we could
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  Speaker 4: never get done. because he understands business, he understands deals.
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  Speaker 4: We started at 10%, and we ended at 10%, and
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  Speaker 4: the market for America is better, and this is a
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  Speaker 4: perfect example of why Donald Trump produced the Liberation Day.
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  Speaker 6: This would have taken Jameson and I three years, maybe,
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  Speaker 6: and instead we got it done in 45 days, certainly,
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  Speaker 6: because we worked for Donald Trump.
• 9:02
  Speaker 1: Howard Lutnick. Never fails to deliver. Let me tell you.
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  Speaker 1: What a Commerce Secretary. What do you make of the
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  Speaker 1: big deal, Dan?
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  Speaker 2: Well, I hate to disagree with Mr. Letnick here, but
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  Speaker 2: they did not get this done in three weeks. This
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  Speaker 2: deal has been under some form of discussion since Trump
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  Speaker 2: was president the first time. It's not particularly related to
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  Speaker 2: Liberation Day. It's not a deal. It's at best a
• 9:27
  Speaker 2: framework of a deal. It's maybe a, to borrow a
• 9:30
  Speaker 2: phrase from Trump, a concept.
• 9:31
  Speaker 3: Of a deal.
• 9:32
  Speaker 2: We have some outlines. We don't know when it's going
• 9:35
  Speaker 2: into effect. Nothing's been signed. But the things to know
• 9:39
  Speaker 2: here are Trump's completely ass-backward, asinine understanding of global trade
• 9:45
  Speaker 2: suggests that if you have a trade– the United States
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  Speaker 2: has a trade deficit with that country, then we are
• 9:50
  Speaker 2: losing somehow. We have a trade surplus with the UK.
• 9:54
  Speaker 2: We are winning in this scenario. So it's like what–
• 9:58
  Speaker 2: this is not– like if theoretically there's more we can
• 10:01
  Speaker 2: open up, like one of the things in here is
• 10:03
  Speaker 2: they're raising the quota on US beef going to the UK.
• 10:07
  Speaker 2: That's fine. That's like a totally fine, normal thing. This
• 10:09
  Speaker 2: is not going to change very much at all. The
• 10:12
  Speaker 2: fact that it's the UK is very telling because as
• 10:14
  Speaker 2: I mentioned, it's a deal that's been worked on for years.
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  Speaker 2: It's also our closest ally with a special relationship, with
• 10:19
  Speaker 2: a very meager trading relationship. So it's a pretty easy
• 10:21
  Speaker 2: deal to get done if you're looking to show some victory.
• 10:24
  Speaker 2: And Letnick is celebrating that the 10% tariffs are on there.
• 10:28
  Speaker 2: What he's doing, he's celebrating the continued 10% tax that
• 10:32
  Speaker 2: American people will pay on goods coming from the UK,
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  Speaker 2: unless you buy Rolls-Royce. If you buy one of the 100,000.
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  Speaker 1: It says we took it from 25 to 10 on Rolls-Royce,
• 10:44
  Speaker 1: but you're right, the first 100,000 that come into the
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  Speaker 1: United States.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, the first 100,000 Rolls-Royces and other British manufactured cars
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  Speaker 2: will not face that tariff.
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  Speaker 1: Bentleys, Range Rovers, Minis. I think that's everyone.
• 10:57
  Speaker 2: Aston Martin.
• 10:58
  Speaker 1: Aston Martin.
• 10:59
  Speaker 2: Aston Martin, you're right. All things I learned from James Bond.
• 11:04
  Speaker 1: U.S. tariff rates because of this quote-unquote deal fell 0.06%.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: So it's not much of a deal. But NBC's, the
• 11:13
  Speaker 1: NBC headline on this is amazing. Trump gives break to
• 11:17
  Speaker 1: Rolls Royce cars but threatens more tariffs on Mattel toys.
• 11:22
  Speaker 1: And honestly, the piece is even worse than the headline
• 11:25
  Speaker 1: because there's a quote from Trump about the Rolls, Rolls Royce.
• 11:28
  Speaker 1: He goes, we took it from 25 to 10 on
• 11:29
  Speaker 1: Rolls Royce because Rolls Royce is not going to be
• 11:32
  Speaker 1: built here. I wouldn't even ask them to do that.
• 11:35
  Speaker 1: It's a very special car. And then... The CEO of
• 11:39
  Speaker 1: Mattel had said that he's going to move some production
• 11:42
  Speaker 1: out of China into other countries, but not the US.
• 11:46
  Speaker 1: And Trump said, that's okay, let him go. We'll put
• 11:48
  Speaker 1: 100% tariff on his toys and he won't sell one
• 11:51
  Speaker 1: toy in the United States.
• 11:54
  Speaker 2: Cool.
• 11:57
  Speaker 1: I would never ask Rolls Royce to build their cars
• 12:00
  Speaker 1: anywhere but the UK. And please, please sell as many
• 12:02
  Speaker 1: as you want. But fucking Mattel toys?
• 12:05
  Speaker 2: No more.
• 12:06
  Speaker 1: We're done. Trade embargo on Mattel toys I.
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  Speaker 2: Mean, this also fits in with the news that Trump
• 12:12
  Speaker 2: proposed to Mike Johnson a loan program for newborn babies
• 12:16
  Speaker 2: to offset the cost of tariffs because 99% of strollers,
• 12:21
  Speaker 2: car seats, baby toys, everything come from China. So we're
• 12:25
  Speaker 2: going to put babies in debt to cover the tariffs?
• 12:28
  Speaker 2: What are we doing?
• 12:28
  Speaker 1: You have to give the baby back? How does this work?
• 12:32
  Speaker 2: I'm not sure. The baby themselves might be the collateral here.
• 12:35
  Speaker 2: I don't know.
• 12:35
  Speaker 1: Yeah. It feels, I mean, obviously they're doing this because
• 12:40
  Speaker 1: they want to show momentum, big deal. You know, Tommy
• 12:43
  Speaker 1: was pointing out that like Fox News all day, even
• 12:46
  Speaker 1: though the biggest story is the Pope, all day it
• 12:49
  Speaker 1: was talking about the UK trade deal because you can
• 12:51
  Speaker 1: tell like they want to make this a big deal. And,
• 12:54
  Speaker 1: you know, the markets reacted positively as they have been
• 12:57
  Speaker 1: the last week or so because I think markets are
• 12:59
  Speaker 1: hoping that we're sort of inching towards some kind of
• 13:01
  Speaker 1: resolution here. I don't know if that really works as
• 13:06
  Speaker 1: a political strategy or really a, trade strategy.
• 13:09
  Speaker 2: No, I don't think it works. It doesn't work as
• 13:11
  Speaker 2: a trade strategy. It doesn't work as a market strategy.
• 13:13
  Speaker 2: The markets went up this morning, but it's not because
• 13:16
  Speaker 2: of this deal. It's because the prospect that we're going
• 13:20
  Speaker 2: to have negotiations with China next week. That's what people
• 13:22
  Speaker 2: care about. Our relationship, our political relationship with the UK
• 13:26
  Speaker 2: is quote unquote special and important and historic. Our trade
• 13:28
  Speaker 2: relationship with the UK is fairly minimal compared to some
• 13:31
  Speaker 2: of the other like Canada, Mexico, China, the places that
• 13:34
  Speaker 2: are most affected by this. And people, it's all reality.
• 13:37
  Speaker 2: Reality sits in when it comes to the economy. You
• 13:38
  Speaker 2: can't fake it. People are going to see prices go up.
• 13:42
  Speaker 2: They're going to see empty shelves. The markets could make.
• 13:44
  Speaker 1: Just ask Joe Biden.
• 13:45
  Speaker 2: That's right. Exactly. The markets could possibly go up on
• 13:49
  Speaker 2: a deal here or there, but what they're really supposed
• 13:52
  Speaker 2: to do is project the medium and long-term state of
• 13:54
  Speaker 2: the economy. And if the economy performs as Jerome Powell
• 13:58
  Speaker 2: thinks it might, then that's going to affect the market too,
• 14:00
  Speaker 2: no matter how many deals Trump announces between now and then.
• 14:03
  Speaker 1: Let's talk about China. The first cargo ships with goods
• 14:06
  Speaker 1: subject to Trump's 145% tariffs are now arriving here on
• 14:11
  Speaker 1: the West Coast. Bloomberg had a fascinating breakdown of one
• 14:14
  Speaker 1: container ship that's carrying $ 564 million worth of products from
• 14:19
  Speaker 1: China that will cost the Americans who bought them $ 417
• 14:25
  Speaker 1: million in tariff payments. I'm not a great business guy,
• 14:29
  Speaker 1: but that seems like it's going to be difficult to
• 14:31
  Speaker 1: turn a profit.
• 14:33
  Speaker 2: Unless you raise prices. That's true.
• 14:36
  Speaker 1: The port of Los Angeles is expecting a 35% drop
• 14:39
  Speaker 1: in volume this week. And that's just one port. Trump
• 14:42
  Speaker 1: was asked about all this at the Oval event on
• 14:44
  Speaker 1: Thursday with his big UK deal. Let's listen.
• 14:47
  Speaker 3: Courts here in the U.S., the traffic has really slowed
• 14:51
  Speaker 3: and now thousands of dock workers and truck drivers are
• 14:54
  Speaker 3: worried about their jobs.
• 14:55
  Speaker 7: That means we lose less money. When I see that,
• 14:59
  Speaker 7: that means we lose less money. So when you say
• 15:01
  Speaker 7: it's slowed down, that's a good thing, not.
• 15:03
  Speaker 3: A bad thing.
• 15:04
  Speaker 1: It's a good thing, Dan. It's a good thing to
• 15:06
  Speaker 1: have the shipping of goods and global trade slow down
• 15:10
  Speaker 1: so that people can't get the goods they need and
• 15:13
  Speaker 1: have to pay more for the ones that are left.
• 15:16
  Speaker 2: And that the people who work at the docks and
• 15:18
  Speaker 2: drive the trucks and the stores to sell goods lose
• 15:21
  Speaker 2: their jobs.
• 15:23
  Speaker 1: That's a good thing.
• 15:24
  Speaker 2: I mean, he really is a walking, talking argument for
• 15:27
  Speaker 2: making econ a required course in American high school. It's
• 15:32
  Speaker 2: like he just, the fundamentals of it, he does not,
• 15:35
  Speaker 2: like if he had gone to and paid attention to
• 15:37
  Speaker 2: the first three weeks of econ 101 at any university
• 15:41
  Speaker 2: in America, we would not be in this problem.
• 15:43
  Speaker 1: Well, that's his excuse. What's the excuse of all the
• 15:46
  Speaker 1: fucking people that work in his administration?
• 15:49
  Speaker 2: Because they do what he wants. I mean, like there
• 15:52
  Speaker 2: are people.
• 15:52
  Speaker 1: Like Scott fucking Bessie.
• 15:54
  Speaker 2: He is trying to work. Of course, he wrote a
• 15:57
  Speaker 2: thousand things before the election trying to rationalize terrorists. But,
• 16:01
  Speaker 2: you know, whatever his queered quote was about how the
• 16:03
  Speaker 2: tariff gun always stays in the drawer. So he is
• 16:05
  Speaker 2: trying to work around the insanity and ignorance of his
• 16:08
  Speaker 2: boss and other people.
• 16:10
  Speaker 1: So many have before. Yes.
• 16:11
  Speaker 2: I mean, he's going to end up working somewhere with
• 16:13
  Speaker 2: Gary Cohn one day. And the rest of these people,
• 16:17
  Speaker 2: they view their job as to do what Trump wants,
• 16:22
  Speaker 2: regardless of how stupid that is.
• 16:24
  Speaker 1: Apparently, Besant is meeting in Switzerland with the Chinese this
• 16:29
  Speaker 1: weekend to maybe talk about, I don't know, first steps
• 16:33
  Speaker 1: on a deal, first steps on negotiations about a deal.
• 16:36
  Speaker 1: I don't know how this ends with China because I don't,
• 16:39
  Speaker 1: you know, it seems like Trump doesn't want to have
• 16:43
  Speaker 1: it seem at all like he is giving into China,
• 16:46
  Speaker 1: but he needs to give into China. I feel like
• 16:50
  Speaker 1: this is what this whole Switzerland thing is about.
• 16:52
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 16:53
  Speaker 2: I mean, the Chinese are suffering economically from the tariffs.
• 16:57
  Speaker 2: There are projections that 60 million Chinese will lose their jobs.
• 17:01
  Speaker 2: The forecasts on economic growth are being revised now. We
• 17:04
  Speaker 2: buy their stuff more than anyone else in the world
• 17:06
  Speaker 2: if they can't sell it to us. Those ships.
• 17:10
  Speaker 2: Those empty ships are bad for them. But the problem
• 17:12
  Speaker 2: with the trade war with China is they face no
• 17:15
  Speaker 2: political pressure. There is no– she's not sitting around checking
• 17:19
  Speaker 2: Dave Wasserman's Twitter feed to see how things are looking
• 17:22
  Speaker 2: in the 2026 midterms. And he doesn't have to worry
• 17:25
  Speaker 2: about Congress. He can just, as they are doing, just
• 17:29
  Speaker 2: enact a stimulus plan to offset the economic damage, the
• 17:33
  Speaker 2: short-term economic damage of the tariffs. So like Trump will
• 17:37
  Speaker 2: face– political pressure in this country and adverse effects that
• 17:43
  Speaker 2: she will never face, even if their economy ends up
• 17:46
  Speaker 2: suffering more in the short term than ours does.
• 17:58
  Speaker 8: This show is sponsored by BetterHelp. Look, maintaining your mental
• 18:02
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• 18:12
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• 18:14
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• 18:16
  Speaker 8: was that? What was that gesture you just made?
• 18:18
  Speaker 1: Uh, cuckoo. That's the thing about chief throwing the, the.
• 18:22
  Speaker 7: Oh yeah.
• 18:23
  Speaker 8: He's thinking about, uh, yeah. He's thinking about a one
• 18:24
  Speaker 8: flew over the cuckoo's nest, which, uh, I think actually
• 18:27
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  Speaker 1: As a film. It's a very good movie.
• 18:31
  Speaker 3: Great movie.
• 18:32
  Speaker 8: Great performance by Danny DeVito.
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  Speaker 2: Actually.
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  Speaker 1: I wonder if it stands up.
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  Speaker 8: I wonder if people have criticisms of it. I don't care.
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  Speaker 1: It's good.
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  Speaker 8: Mental health awareness is growing, but there's still progress to
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• 19:40
  Speaker 1: Let's check in on the other part of Trump's economic plan,
• 19:42
  Speaker 1: a big beautiful bill filled with tax cuts and maybe
• 19:45
  Speaker 1: cuts to Medicaid and other programs, but we still don't
• 19:47
  Speaker 1: know for sure because Republicans can't seem to agree on anything.
• 19:51
  Speaker 1: The latest is that they're now looking at $ 4 trillion
• 19:55
  Speaker 1: in tax cuts and $ 1. 5 trillion in spending cuts. It
• 19:59
  Speaker 1: was originally $ 4. 5 and $ 2. And the spending cuts are
• 20:02
  Speaker 1: theoretically supposed to include $ 880 billion in cuts to Medicaid, but.
• 20:07
  Speaker 1: House Republicans, who will face competitive races in 2026, are
• 20:12
  Speaker 1: nervous about gutting Medicaid, as they should be. Reportedly, so
• 20:15
  Speaker 1: is the White House. So now they're trying to find
• 20:17
  Speaker 1: ways to cut Medicaid without really cutting Medicaid, which is
• 20:21
  Speaker 1: quite a trick to pull off. One idea that's still
• 20:24
  Speaker 1: floating around, capping the amount the federal government spends on
• 20:28
  Speaker 1: each Medicaid recipient, which would lead to a lot of
• 20:31
  Speaker 1: people losing their health insurance because The cap wouldn't account
• 20:35
  Speaker 1: for rising health care costs. And so when health care
• 20:38
  Speaker 1: costs go up, people would just not be able to
• 20:39
  Speaker 1: afford them or the states wouldn't be able to pay more.
• 20:44
  Speaker 1: The more moderate Republicans don't like this either, but the
• 20:47
  Speaker 1: hardline Republicans refuse to vote for a bill that doesn't
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: find $ 1. 5 trillion in cuts somewhere. So here we are.
• 20:57
  Speaker 1: What do you think? Can you think of a solution
• 20:58
  Speaker 1: here that gets all the House Republicans on board?
• 21:01
  Speaker 2: If you were to take these people at their word,
• 21:03
  Speaker 2: and you probably shouldn't, Frankly, most of them are liars
• 21:06
  Speaker 2: and have no understanding at all of how governmental fiscal
• 21:10
  Speaker 2: policy works. But if you took them at their word,
• 21:11
  Speaker 2: if you just did that as a thought exercise, nothing
• 21:14
  Speaker 2: can pass. Because you have a group of people who
• 21:16
  Speaker 2: say they will not pass a bill that cuts Medicaid
• 21:19
  Speaker 2: above a certain level. You have a different group of
• 21:21
  Speaker 2: people who say they will not pass a bill unless
• 21:23
  Speaker 2: it cuts Medicaid below a certain level. Like the red
• 21:25
  Speaker 2: lines are crossing left and right. So if you took
• 21:28
  Speaker 2: them at their word, they cannot get it done. Will
• 21:31
  Speaker 2: they find some way to get it done?
• 21:32
  Speaker 6: Maybe.
• 21:33
  Speaker 3: Maybe.
• 21:34
  Speaker 2: I mean, they have done everything Trump's asked them to
• 21:36
  Speaker 2: do thus far. Democrats have been quite skeptical that they
• 21:38
  Speaker 2: would pass this budget resolution, and they did. I mentioned
• 21:42
  Speaker 2: this on the show recently, last week, two weeks, six
• 21:46
  Speaker 2: months ago, who knows? But one thing they could do
• 21:49
  Speaker 2: is just they could punt. They could extend the tax
• 21:52
  Speaker 2: cuts for a year or two unpaid for, or with
• 21:56
  Speaker 2: some non-Medicaid spending cuts where you're just sort of paying
• 21:59
  Speaker 2: a toll and say, because of the economic uncertainty of
• 22:02
  Speaker 2: the tariffs– The last thing we want to do is
• 22:04
  Speaker 2: risk raising taxes on every American. So we're going to
• 22:08
  Speaker 2: do this and come back. Now, the downside to them
• 22:10
  Speaker 2: is they could very much lose the House in the interim.
• 22:13
  Speaker 2: And then they're forced into a– Trump is forced into
• 22:15
  Speaker 2: a negotiation with Democrats. But they can't let taxes go
• 22:19
  Speaker 2: up on every American. Like that is just something they
• 22:21
  Speaker 2: absolutely cannot do. And if they cannot figure the cuts
• 22:23
  Speaker 2: out in the interim, then I'm not sure what other
• 22:25
  Speaker 2: option there is.
• 22:27
  Speaker 1: I'm trying to think of how Trump would explain that
• 22:29
  Speaker 1: one because he's not going to be like, oh, we lost.
• 22:31
  Speaker 1: I guess he'd just be like– You just say, well,
• 22:33
  Speaker 1: I wanted all this, but you know what? Democrats are
• 22:36
  Speaker 1: going to, if we don't pass something, Democrats are going
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: to let the taxes go up and Democrats want your
• 22:40
  Speaker 1: taxes to go up. So we're going to save the
• 22:42
  Speaker 1: day and make sure the taxes don't go up.
• 22:43
  Speaker 2: He's already started. We don't have to have this conversation today,
• 22:47
  Speaker 2: but there's a longer conversation about Democratic strategy here and
• 22:49
  Speaker 2: what they should be doing that they may not yet
• 22:51
  Speaker 2: be doing. But he's already started the Democrats want your
• 22:55
  Speaker 2: taxes to go up because we're all opposing this bill. Right.
• 22:58
  Speaker 2: And so it's an inelegant solution for the Republicans for sure,
• 23:02
  Speaker 2: but it is one. If they cannot square the circle
• 23:06
  Speaker 2: on these cuts, someone has to give. The moderates have
• 23:09
  Speaker 2: to give or the conservatives have to give. And then
• 23:11
  Speaker 2: you have a whole set of different problems with the
• 23:12
  Speaker 2: Senate in getting to your 50 votes there. If they
• 23:16
  Speaker 2: can't do that, they're going to have to do something
• 23:17
  Speaker 2: and that could be a punt.
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: Reuters reported on Thursday that Trump is privately pushing Johnson
• 23:24
  Speaker 1: to create a new higher tax bracket for people making
• 23:28
  Speaker 1: over $ 2. 5 million and closing the so-called carried interest loophole
• 23:33
  Speaker 1: as ways of paying for tax cuts to everyone else.
• 23:37
  Speaker 1: This was like, you know, higher taxes for the rich
• 23:39
  Speaker 1: were on the table, then they were off the table.
• 23:42
  Speaker 1: Steve Bannon wanted them and some of the MAGA populist
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: types and then the more establishment MAGA types were like, no,
• 23:49
  Speaker 1: that's crazy. We love tax cuts for rich people. That's
• 23:51
  Speaker 1: why we came to Congress. Do you think this flies?
• 23:54
  Speaker 1: Do you think they can do a, a $ 2. 5 million
• 23:57
  Speaker 1: tax bracket. I also don't know how much, it's $ 2. 5
• 24:00
  Speaker 1: million in income. So it's like, you know, really rich people,
• 24:05
  Speaker 1: like multimillionaires and billionaires, they probably have a lot of
• 24:07
  Speaker 1: money that they're not getting an income. So I don't
• 24:09
  Speaker 1: even know how much that saves them, but.
• 24:11
  Speaker 9: Yeah.
• 24:12
  Speaker 2: The devil's in the details here for sure. They would,
• 24:14
  Speaker 2: it would certainly get them some savings with reduced pressure
• 24:17
  Speaker 2: on the cut side of it, but it's impossible. It's
• 24:19
  Speaker 2: almost impossible to imagine this passing. Every time– this keeps
• 24:23
  Speaker 2: getting floated and Republicans keep shooting this down from– like
• 24:28
  Speaker 2: Republicans who rarely disagree with Trump shoot this idea down
• 24:30
  Speaker 2: because the idea of taxing rich people is impossible in
• 24:34
  Speaker 2: the fathom. And just even if you're being generous about this,
• 24:37
  Speaker 2: their long-held doctrinaire Republican view that you never raise taxes, right?
• 24:44
  Speaker 2: That's the Reagan rule, the one that George H.W. Bush
• 24:48
  Speaker 2: violated and lost– you know, was primaried because of it
• 24:53
  Speaker 2: and lost reelection. So I can't imagine doing that. Now,
• 24:55
  Speaker 2: carried interest loophole, you could probably find some more support for,
• 25:00
  Speaker 2: but once Trump's new VC buddies hear about this, they're
• 25:04
  Speaker 2: going to blow up the White House and it's going
• 25:07
  Speaker 2: to come to an end. Like, I just don't think
• 25:08
  Speaker 2: either of these are happening.
• 25:10
  Speaker 1: Well, someone asked, a reporter asked Trump about this last
• 25:12
  Speaker 1: week or whenever. And he was like, oh, we can't
• 25:15
  Speaker 1: let taxes go up, even on the rich. It's not,
• 25:17
  Speaker 1: we're not going to do that. That's too much. And
• 25:18
  Speaker 1: then now he's, you know, Jake Sherman's like, oh, he
• 25:20
  Speaker 1: called Mike Johnson, was like, let's do it. And now
• 25:23
  Speaker 1: Mike Johnson's entertaining it, but that probably doesn't matter. But
• 25:25
  Speaker 1: he shot it, Mike Johnson shot it down the last
• 25:27
  Speaker 1: time too. So I just, he shot it down last time.
• 25:29
  Speaker 1: Now he's going to say, I don't know, who the
• 25:32
  Speaker 1: fuck knows. But this, I think it just goes to
• 25:33
  Speaker 1: show that the math is so hard here for them.
• 25:36
  Speaker 1: One thing that's important is we know in the past,
• 25:40
  Speaker 1: almost every single time, maybe every time that I can remember,
• 25:43
  Speaker 1: when there is sort of a battle between the hardline
• 25:47
  Speaker 1: Republicans and the more moderate Republicans who are in competitive races,
• 25:51
  Speaker 1: the moderate Republicans always fold, the hardliners win the day.
• 25:57
  Speaker 1: And so I think that if people, and I know
• 26:00
  Speaker 1: people have been going to town halls, holding town halls
• 26:02
  Speaker 1: of their own, Democratic members have been going to Republican
• 26:05
  Speaker 1: districts who refuse to hold town halls and hold them there,
• 26:09
  Speaker 1: continue putting pressure on Democrats the Republicans in districts that
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: are going to face competitive races in 2026, because that
• 26:17
  Speaker 1: pressure needs to be sustained. And we need to be
• 26:20
  Speaker 1: loud because they need to fear what might happen to
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: their job if they cut Medicaid. And so you can
• 26:28
  Speaker 1: go to votesaveamerica.com to look for places to take action.
• 26:32
  Speaker 1: But I do think in these next couple of weeks,
• 26:35
  Speaker 1: who knows, it could be months, but they're going to,
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: you know, these things come together fast. And then suddenly
• 26:39
  Speaker 1: we're looking at a whole bunch of Medicaid cuts on
• 26:41
  Speaker 1: the table that we didn't think were going to happen.
• 26:43
  Speaker 1: So I think it's really important for people to keep.
• 26:45
  Speaker 3: Up the pressure.
• 26:46
  Speaker 2: This is a fight we can win. It's not guaranteed.
• 26:48
  Speaker 2: We don't have the votes to stop it. But cutting
• 26:51
  Speaker 2: Medicaid is way more unpopular than attempts to repeal the
• 26:56
  Speaker 2: Affordable Care Act or Trump's first term. You have 80%
• 27:00
  Speaker 2: of Americans opposing Medicaid cuts, more than 50% of Republicans,
• 27:05
  Speaker 2: 75% of independents. This is incredibly popular. It is ingrained
• 27:09
  Speaker 2: in people's lives. It is how many, many Americans get healthcare.
• 27:13
  Speaker 2: Something like 40% of births in America are paid for
• 27:17
  Speaker 2: by Medicaid. And so, yes, Republicans are craven. Yes, they
• 27:23
  Speaker 2: do terrible things. We may not win this fight, but
• 27:26
  Speaker 2: it's one we can win. There are a lot of
• 27:27
  Speaker 2: fights that just they're going to do what they're, like
• 27:28
  Speaker 2: the confirmations. They're just going to do what Trump wants,
• 27:31
  Speaker 2: and it's not really going to matter. This is one
• 27:32
  Speaker 2: where the politics are such that if we put sufficient
• 27:34
  Speaker 2: political pressure on, we could actually stop this.
• 27:37
  Speaker 1: Yeah, because I mean, you laid out the scenario where
• 27:40
  Speaker 1: this is a win and they still get by, which
• 27:42
  Speaker 1: is they just give up on the cuts and they
• 27:44
  Speaker 1: extend the tax cuts and they punt for a year
• 27:46
  Speaker 1: or something. That would be a huge win.
• 27:48
  Speaker 2: All right.
• 27:48
  Speaker 1: Trump administration is still trying very hard to disappear immigrants
• 27:52
  Speaker 1: to foreign gulags and the courts, including Trump judges, are
• 27:55
  Speaker 1: still trying very hard to stop them. The federal government
• 27:58
  Speaker 1: has a new gulag in mind that's somehow even worse
• 28:01
  Speaker 1: than El Salvador's sea cot. Detention centers in Eastern Libya,
• 28:06
  Speaker 1: which is controlled by an African warlord. Our own State
• 28:10
  Speaker 1: Department calls the conditions in those prisons life-threatening and warns
• 28:14
  Speaker 1: against traveling to Libya because of terrorism, kidnapping, and armed conflict.
• 28:18
  Speaker 1: A federal judge almost immediately blocked the Trump administration from
• 28:22
  Speaker 1: doing this. We'll see if they listen. The lawyers that
• 28:25
  Speaker 1: brought the case said that this was the plan. ICE
• 28:29
  Speaker 1: rounded up six Asian nationals who were detained in Texas
• 28:34
  Speaker 1: and ordered them to sign paperwork agreeing to be sent
• 28:38
  Speaker 1: to Libya. When they refused, they were handcuffed and thrown
• 28:41
  Speaker 1: in solitary confinement. Wild shit. There's also another lawyer said
• 28:47
  Speaker 1: that they were trying to potentially send Mexican immigrants, detainees
• 28:54
  Speaker 1: to Libya, which is even more insane because Mexico is
• 28:58
  Speaker 1: taking deportees. If there are Mexican nationals, you can send
• 29:01
  Speaker 1: them back to Mexico and the Mexican government will take them.
• 29:03
  Speaker 1: So they're literally just wanting to send people to Libya
• 29:07
  Speaker 1: to this fucking hellhole. I don't know, just because.
• 29:10
  Speaker 2: To send a message.
• 29:11
  Speaker 1: To send a message, to send a message. Meanwhile, in
• 29:14
  Speaker 1: a D.C. courtroom, Judge Boasberg challenged the DOJ's position that
• 29:18
  Speaker 1: they have no authority to bring back the people they
• 29:21
  Speaker 1: disappear to foreign gulags by pointing out that Trump himself
• 29:24
  Speaker 1: said on national TV to Terry Moran that he could
• 29:28
  Speaker 1: just pick up the phone and ask Bukele to release
• 29:30
  Speaker 1: Kilmer Obrego Garcia. Needless to say, the DOJ didn't have
• 29:34
  Speaker 1: a good answer to that. Neither did Homeland Security Secretary
• 29:37
  Speaker 1: Kristi Noem or FBI Director Kash Patel. when they were
• 29:40
  Speaker 1: grilled about due process and deportations during their testimony on
• 29:44
  Speaker 1: Capitol Hill this week. Let's listen.
• 29:46
  Speaker 5: Do you believe that you have the right to detain
• 29:48
  Speaker 5: or deport a legal permanent resident for expressing their political opinion?
• 29:54
  Speaker 10: I don't make decisions on legal status here in the
• 29:57
  Speaker 10: United States.
• 29:58
  Speaker 2: The Department of State does that.
• 30:00
  Speaker 11: Your position is that every one of those individuals is
• 30:03
  Speaker 11: by constitutional right afforded due process. I don't know the
• 30:06
  Speaker 11: answer to that.
• 30:06
  Speaker 2: I'm telling you.
• 30:07
  Speaker 3: You don't?
• 30:08
  Speaker 2: You haven't read the Constitution? It says all persons. I've
• 30:10
  Speaker 2: got it right here.
• 30:11
  Speaker 11: But what you're saying is that every single one of
• 30:14
  Speaker 11: the illegals that was sent down to El Salvador is
• 30:16
  Speaker 11: supposed to be given due process pursuant.
• 30:18
  Speaker 2: That's what the Constitution says. It says no person. It
• 30:20
  Speaker 2: doesn't say that. It does say no person. I'll encourage
• 30:25
  Speaker 2: you to read it.
• 30:28
  Speaker 1: I would also encourage the FBI director to read the Constitution.
• 30:32
  Speaker 1: Leah and I will get into some of this in
• 30:33
  Speaker 1: the interview, though I interviewed her before this hearing. What
• 30:38
  Speaker 1: did you make of Noam and Patel's answers and the
• 30:40
  Speaker 1: DOJ's answer in court that the president, he just says things.
• 30:46
  Speaker 1: He just says things.
• 30:46
  Speaker 2: I mean, the sum total of what these guys said
• 30:49
  Speaker 2: in their testimony, what Caroline Leavitt says at the press conferences,
• 30:53
  Speaker 2: how Trump answered questions with Kirsten Welker, the court filings,
• 30:59
  Speaker 2: what they're doing is indefensible. It's indefensible morally, it's indefensible legally,
• 31:01
  Speaker 2: it's indefensible politically. You can't answer the questions because basically
• 31:06
  Speaker 2: the FBI director has to pretend to not understand the
• 31:10
  Speaker 2: Constitution to be able to answer this question because the
• 31:12
  Speaker 2: Constitution is crystal clear on it. And even if you
• 31:14
  Speaker 2: want to debate The use of the word person in there,
• 31:18
  Speaker 2: the courts have ruled on this, as you pointed out
• 31:19
  Speaker 2: on Tuesday's spot, as recently as like three weeks ago.
• 31:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah, all nine justices, even the ones we don't like,
• 31:25
  Speaker 1: even Alito and Thomas. And the reason they ruled on
• 31:27
  Speaker 1: it that way is because they said it is the
• 31:29
  Speaker 1: government's own position that due process is afforded to all
• 31:33
  Speaker 1: these people.
• 31:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and has been for ever. I mean, it's embarrassing.
• 31:40
  Speaker 2: If it wasn't so horrifying, it'd be embarrassing, frankly.
• 31:43
  Speaker 1: Also, remember this crew, they love the unitary executive theory,
• 31:48
  Speaker 1: which is, you know, all power is vested in the
• 31:50
  Speaker 1: president of the United States and the executive branch and
• 31:53
  Speaker 1: the president is all powerful. But then we were like, okay, well,
• 31:56
  Speaker 1: he just said he could pick up the phone and
• 31:57
  Speaker 1: bring people back from El Salvador. So was he lying?
• 32:00
  Speaker 4: Oh, no, no, no.
• 32:02
  Speaker 1: He's talking about the influence he might have, not his authority.
• 32:06
  Speaker 1: That was what the DOJ said in response. He's all powerful,
• 32:10
  Speaker 1: except when you ask him to do what the courts
• 32:12
  Speaker 1: have ordered him to do. And then, eh, I don't know.
• 32:15
  Speaker 1: And they're all like, it's just wild that they're all
• 32:17
  Speaker 1: pointing fingers at everyone else. Kristi Noem's like, DHS, we
• 32:20
  Speaker 1: don't detain people. That's Marco Rubio. And then Cashfield's like,
• 32:23
  Speaker 1: I don't know. I was the constitution. And Trump's like,
• 32:25
  Speaker 1: I don't know. I listen to my lawyers.
• 32:27
  Speaker 2: I mean, the I listen to my lawyers is such
• 32:30
  Speaker 2: a pitiful.
• 32:32
  Speaker 1: He's a real stickler.
• 32:33
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 32:33
  Speaker 1: He's a real stickler.
• 32:34
  Speaker 2: It's someone known for seeking legal advice before he does anything. Because,
• 32:37
  Speaker 2: you know, the one thing I say about Trump is
• 32:39
  Speaker 2: dot the I's and cross the T's legally.
• 32:42
  Speaker 1: I do find it just horrifying that because I don't
• 32:45
  Speaker 1: think Libya is the last example of a new country
• 32:49
  Speaker 1: they're going to want to send people to. And this one,
• 32:53
  Speaker 1: like you said, it seemed designed to send a message
• 32:56
  Speaker 1: because the so there's there's one Libyan government that we
• 33:00
  Speaker 1: that the world recognizes in Tripoli. And then there's the
• 33:03
  Speaker 1: the warlord in eastern Libya whose son, I guess, met
• 33:06
  Speaker 1: with the Trump administration a couple of weeks ago where
• 33:09
  Speaker 1: they must have cooked up this deal. And it wasn't
• 33:12
  Speaker 1: just a rumor because there was a fucking flight plan
• 33:15
  Speaker 1: that was filed for a C-17, a military plane in
• 33:19
  Speaker 1: Texas that was going to Libya. And so this shit
• 33:22
  Speaker 1: was going to happen. And they were going to send
• 33:24
  Speaker 1: just a couple of Asian nationals that they found in
• 33:29
  Speaker 1: a detention center in Texas. What?
• 33:31
  Speaker 3: Why?
• 33:31
  Speaker 1: Do we even know if these people are.
• 33:35
  Speaker 1: Are undocumented? Do we know that they're legal residents? Do
• 33:37
  Speaker 1: we know that they're citizen? We don't. What crimes have
• 33:39
  Speaker 1: they committed? We don't know. What authority do they have
• 33:41
  Speaker 1: to send them to another prison? We don't know.
• 33:43
  Speaker 2: Well, no, we know they have none. You know, it
• 33:46
  Speaker 2: is almost certainly illegal to send people to Libya.
• 33:52
  Speaker 1: Is the Filipino guy Trende Aragua, right? Is that what
• 33:55
  Speaker 1: I thought we were? I thought this was the Alien
• 33:56
  Speaker 1: Enemies Act. Is he MS-13? Because I don't think those
• 33:59
  Speaker 1: gangs are in the Philippines. What about the Cambodian?
• 34:00
  Speaker 2: And why can't these people be sent to their home countries?
• 34:03
  Speaker 1: Unconscionable yeah it's unconscionable and i just don't like they
• 34:07
  Speaker 1: are not going to stop here they are going to
• 34:08
  Speaker 1: keep going and they're key and they're losing and they're
• 34:10
  Speaker 1: losing to trump judges the second the second trump judge
• 34:13
  Speaker 1: was like uh there was another abrigo garcia case where
• 34:17
  Speaker 1: they were they the guy had legal protection they sent
• 34:20
  Speaker 1: him anyway and she's like hello you got to bring
• 34:23
  Speaker 1: him back i'm sure they got right on that it's
• 34:26
  Speaker 1: really fucking bad Pod Save America is brought to you
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• 35:59
  Speaker 1: Support the show by mentioning us at checkout. Terms and
• 36:02
  Speaker 1: conditions apply. All right, let's play Good News, Bad News.
• 36:09
  Speaker 2: Oh, is this a new segment?
• 36:12
  Speaker 1: Well, just this, maybe just one week.
• 36:14
  Speaker 2: Yeah, normally it's Bad News, Bad News, but this week
• 36:16
  Speaker 2: we'll do Good News, Bad News. Or maybe bad news,
• 36:19
  Speaker 2: bad news, good news.
• 36:20
  Speaker 1: I was going to say, just wait for it. The
• 36:22
  Speaker 1: good news. It appears that one of Trump's worst appointees
• 36:25
  Speaker 1: won't be confirmed. Ed Martin, the Stop the Steal activist
• 36:28
  Speaker 1: serving as the interim U.S. attorney for Washington, D.C. North
• 36:31
  Speaker 1: Carolina Senator Tom Tillis said on Tuesday that he would
• 36:33
  Speaker 1: vote against Martin's nomination to the position. And on Thursday,
• 36:37
  Speaker 1: Trump said he would replace Martin.
• 36:39
  Speaker 2: Woo!
• 36:40
  Speaker 3: Yay!
• 36:41
  Speaker 1: Bad news. Trump announced he's replacing Martin with Judge Jeanine Pirro.
• 36:48
  Speaker 2: And thus, the five became the four.
• 36:53
  Speaker 1: Who knows? Maybe Ed Martin becomes the five.
• 36:55
  Speaker 2: Oh, good point.
• 36:55
  Speaker 3: Good point.
• 36:56
  Speaker 1: Your thoughts, Dan? Your thoughts on Ed Martin going down?
• 36:59
  Speaker 1: Thank God. That guy was fucking nuts.
• 37:02
  Speaker 2: This is very Matt Gaetz, Pam Bondi, which is like,
• 37:04
  Speaker 2: be careful what you wish for. The idea that Judge
• 37:07
  Speaker 2: Jeanine Pirro would have a high-level appointment in the Trump
• 37:09
  Speaker 2: administration has been a running joke for nearly a decade.
• 37:14
  Speaker 2: And thus, it has become true.
• 37:16
  Speaker 1: We're not laughing now.
• 37:16
  Speaker 2: We're not laughing anymore. Because the U.S. attorney is a
• 37:19
  Speaker 2: very important job. The U.S. attorney of D.C. is a
• 37:22
  Speaker 2: very important job. You are not just a U.S. attorney
• 37:26
  Speaker 2: for federal crimes. You're also the local prosecutor because D.C.
• 37:29
  Speaker 2: is not a state. You end up taking a lot
• 37:34
  Speaker 2: of governmental and political cases because the government's there in D.C.
• 37:38
  Speaker 2: So this is not– I mean, it is bad that
• 37:41
  Speaker 2: Trump's OAN spokesperson is the acting U.S. attorney in uh,
• 37:46
  Speaker 2: New Jersey, but it is even worse to have someone
• 37:48
  Speaker 2: in DC. They can do much, much more damage as
• 37:51
  Speaker 2: Ed Martin was doing as he was threatening Chuck Schumer
• 37:55
  Speaker 2: and doing all the other.
• 37:55
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 37:56
  Speaker 1: Just tweeting, tweeting legal threats at Chuck Schumer, Georgetown university, uh,
• 38:01
  Speaker 1: anyone he could think of. This is, I, I, it's,
• 38:04
  Speaker 1: it's one of those, it's funny, but it's not funny
• 38:06
  Speaker 1: from the New York times explaining Ed Martin going down.
• 38:10
  Speaker 1: It was a revelation about Mr. Martin's association with a
• 38:12
  Speaker 1: well-known January 6th defendant that turned many fence-sitters against him.
• 38:17
  Speaker 1: A man who has dressed up like Adolf Hitler, sketched
• 38:20
  Speaker 1: cartoons depicting Jewish people as pigs, and once declared that
• 38:23
  Speaker 1: he would kill all the Jews and eat them for breakfast, lunch,
• 38:26
  Speaker 1: and dinner, according to court filings. That's the guy who
• 38:30
  Speaker 1: Ed Martin had on his podcast, praised him, and then
• 38:34
  Speaker 1: lied about praising him and really knowing him. That's Ed Martin.
• 38:40
  Speaker 2: And now we got Janine Pirro.
• 38:41
  Speaker 1: Do your best. Do your best, Judge Janine.
• 38:43
  Speaker 2: It is like how, the only, like you said, it's
• 38:47
  Speaker 2: not really funny, but it, like Tom Tillis is like,
• 38:49
  Speaker 2: I am going to make a bold move. I'm going
• 38:51
  Speaker 2: to do the right thing. And now he's going to
• 38:52
  Speaker 2: be fucking forced to vote for Judge Janine Pirro.
• 38:55
  Speaker 1: Not only that, Tom Tillis was like, but you know,
• 38:58
  Speaker 1: if they want to put Ed Martin somewhere else in DOJ,
• 39:00
  Speaker 1: that's okay. I just don't think he should be in
• 39:02
  Speaker 1: DC because of January 6th. Thanks, Tom Tillis.
• 39:06
  Speaker 2: Just real profound courage.
• 39:08
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 39:09
  Speaker 1: So Trump's also having trouble filling the slot for Surgeon General.
• 39:12
  Speaker 1: His initial pick for the job, a Fox News contributor
• 39:14
  Speaker 1: named Jeanette Nishwat, who's also ex-National Security Advisor Mike Waltz's sister-in-law,
• 39:21
  Speaker 1: turned out to have misrepresented her medical credentials. Shocker. Trump
• 39:27
  Speaker 1: announced on Wednesday that he's replacing her with Maha's own
• 39:29
  Speaker 1: Casey Meade. who never even finished her medical residency. Here's
• 39:35
  Speaker 1: what Trump had to say when asked about the nomination
• 39:37
  Speaker 1: in the Oval Office on Thursday.
• 39:39
  Speaker 3: You just announced a new nominee for the U.S. Surgeon
• 39:42
  Speaker 3: General who never finished her residency and is not a
• 39:45
  Speaker 3: practicing physician. So can you explain why you picked her
• 39:49
  Speaker 3: to be America's top doctor?
• 39:50
  Speaker 7: Because Bobbi thought she was fantastic. She's highly, she's a
• 39:53
  Speaker 7: brilliant woman. Bobbi really thought she was great. I don't
• 39:56
  Speaker 7: know her. I listened to the recommendation of Bobbi. I
• 39:59
  Speaker 7: met her yesterday and once before. She's a very outstanding person.
• 40:03
  Speaker 7: A great academic, actually.
• 40:09
  Speaker 1: He's a real details guy. He really gets in the
• 40:12
  Speaker 1: personnel decisions and really focused on the hiring process. Islamophobe
• 40:16
  Speaker 1: conspiracy theorist Laura Loomer had been leading the charge against Neshawat.
• 40:20
  Speaker 1: Does anyone know how to say this? Neshawat? Neshawat? Anyway.
• 40:25
  Speaker 2: Anyway, at this point.
• 40:26
  Speaker 1: We don't need to know anymore.
• 40:27
  Speaker 2: That's the point.
• 40:29
  Speaker 1: In part for being too vaccine friendly. That's why she
• 40:31
  Speaker 1: was loomered. But now, Loomer is attacking means for being too, quote,
• 40:36
  Speaker 1: woo-woo and new agey. So she's trying to loomer her too.
• 40:41
  Speaker 1: What do we know about Casey Means, Dan?
• 40:43
  Speaker 2: You hit in your intro two key points. One, she
• 40:48
  Speaker 2: never finished her surgical residency and she does not have
• 40:51
  Speaker 2: an active medical license. Her medical license expired in 2024.
• 40:55
  Speaker 2: She has been up until she stopped having a medical license,
• 40:59
  Speaker 2: but a sort of preventive holistic medicine doctor in Oregon.
• 41:03
  Speaker 2: But she's best known as a, she's a very big
• 41:06
  Speaker 2: figure in the wellness community. She's a big supporter of
• 41:10
  Speaker 2: Robert F. Kennedy Jr. for a long time. She's quite
• 41:13
  Speaker 2: controversial for a number of reasons. She has a lot
• 41:15
  Speaker 2: of positions on- You don't say. I don't say. But
• 41:18
  Speaker 2: there are two reasons she's controversial. One is she has
• 41:21
  Speaker 2: a lot of non-scientific backed positions on disease prevention and
• 41:25
  Speaker 2: other things. But the other thing is that she's essentially
• 41:28
  Speaker 2: a wellness influencer. She is constantly promoting supplements, vitamins, other
• 41:35
  Speaker 2: things with very limited scientific backing. but she does it
• 41:38
  Speaker 2: by publishing affiliate links on her social media pages for
• 41:41
  Speaker 2: which she makes money. And even more controversially, she's often
• 41:44
  Speaker 2: promoting products from a company called TruMed, which just happens
• 41:48
  Speaker 2: to be run by her brother, Callie Means, who is
• 41:51
  Speaker 2: also an employee of the Department of Health and Human Services.
• 41:55
  Speaker 2: And so she has none of the credentials. Even if
• 42:00
  Speaker 2: you put aside her positions and the grift on the
• 42:03
  Speaker 2: wellness side with the supplements and the whatnot, She doesn't
• 42:06
  Speaker 2: have any of the credentials that a surgeon general normally has,
• 42:09
  Speaker 2: not the clinical experience, not the medical experience, not the.
• 42:15
  Speaker 1: Like America's top doctor, like being a doctor, being a
• 42:18
  Speaker 1: practicing physician.
• 42:18
  Speaker 2: She is technically not a doctor, which does seem to
• 42:22
  Speaker 2: be a challenge.
• 42:23
  Speaker 1: One of the chapter titles in her book is Trust Yourself,
• 42:27
  Speaker 1: Not Your Doctor. She said that the birth control pill
• 42:31
  Speaker 1: disrespects life because it's, quote, shutting down the hormones in
• 42:34
  Speaker 1: the female body that create this cyclical, life-giving nature of women.
• 42:38
  Speaker 1: She likes full moon ceremonies. And she has said that
• 42:41
  Speaker 1: talking to trees helped her find true love. She does
• 42:46
  Speaker 1: admit that that was out there.
• 42:49
  Speaker 2: The tree thing, let's not kink shame her on that.
• 42:52
  Speaker 2: It's not for me to judge how she found true love.
• 42:54
  Speaker 1: I didn't kink shame her. She talked to the tree.
• 42:56
  Speaker 1: She didn't... Anyway, what do we think about Laura Loomer,
• 43:03
  Speaker 1: head of presidential personnel now?
• 43:05
  Speaker 2: She's very effective. I mean, has anyone survived the Loomering yet?
• 43:10
  Speaker 1: I mean, Casey Means would be the first.
• 43:11
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 43:12
  Speaker 1: Because she got her man with Mike Waltz and Alex Wong.
• 43:15
  Speaker 2: And a whole bunch of people deep in the CIA
• 43:19
  Speaker 2: also went down. Large portions of the NSA. She is
• 43:23
  Speaker 2: one of the most influential people in the world right now.
• 43:28
  Speaker 1: Watch out, Pope Leo.
• 43:29
  Speaker 2: That's what I'm saying. Like, let's... We've seen the white smoke.
• 43:32
  Speaker 2: He gave a speech, but can he survive the loomer ring?
• 43:38
  Speaker 1: One final piece of good news with no bad news
• 43:40
  Speaker 1: to follow.
• 43:41
  Speaker 2: Oh, exciting.
• 43:42
  Speaker 1: The final uncalled race of the 2024 election is now over.
• 43:45
  Speaker 1: North Carolina Supreme Court Justice Alison Riggs, who won her
• 43:48
  Speaker 1: race by 734 votes out of more than 5 million,
• 43:52
  Speaker 1: will be sworn in for a new term after her
• 43:54
  Speaker 1: Republican challenger finally gave up his efforts to have various
• 43:58
  Speaker 1: ballots thrown out. but only because a Trump-appointed federal judge
• 44:02
  Speaker 1: said Griffin was trying to change the rules of the
• 44:04
  Speaker 1: game after it had been played. I guess the not-silver
• 44:08
  Speaker 1: lining of bad news, the dark lining of bad news,
• 44:11
  Speaker 1: is that the fact that it took a federal court
• 44:13
  Speaker 1: to step in because the North Carolina Supreme Court was
• 44:16
  Speaker 1: going to let this fucking charade continue, but all's well
• 44:19
  Speaker 1: that ends well for now, I guess.
• 44:22
  Speaker 2: It's a very important victory. Very important victory.
• 44:24
  Speaker 1: It's a very important victory. Also, that also highlights the
• 44:27
  Speaker 1: importance of Everyone getting out to vote and every single
• 44:30
  Speaker 1: vote counting because she won by 734 votes out of
• 44:33
  Speaker 1: more than 5 million. Elections fucking matter. Voting matters. Pay attention.
• 44:38
  Speaker 1: Speaking of the 2024 election, Jake Tapper and Alex Thompson's
• 44:42
  Speaker 1: book Original Sin about the White House cover-up of Joe
• 44:45
  Speaker 1: Biden's decline is coming out in two weeks. In what
• 44:48
  Speaker 1: seems to be an attempt to pre-butt the book, Politico
• 44:51
  Speaker 1: reports that Biden has hired new staff to defend his reputation.
• 44:54
  Speaker 1: He's also back out there doing what he does best,
• 44:57
  Speaker 1: speaking in front of cameras. Uh, he sat for an
• 45:00
  Speaker 1: interview with the BBC that aired on Wednesday and on Thursday,
• 45:04
  Speaker 1: he and Dr. Jill Biden went on The View. Here
• 45:06
  Speaker 1: are some of the, uh, highlights.
• 45:09
  Speaker 12: Knowing what you know now, do you think you would
• 45:11
  Speaker 12: have beat him?
• 45:12
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 45:12
  Speaker 5: He still got 7 million fewer votes.
• 45:14
  Speaker 7: Yes.
• 45:15
  Speaker 3: Okay.
• 45:15
  Speaker 5: A lot of people didn't show up. Number one, number one,
• 45:19
  Speaker 5: number two, um, the, uh, they're very close in those,
• 45:25
  Speaker 5: those toss up states. It wasn't a slam dunk.
• 45:30
  Speaker 12: There have been a number of books that have come out,
• 45:33
  Speaker 12: deeply sourced from Democratic sources, that claim in your final
• 45:36
  Speaker 12: year there was a dramatic decline in your cognitive abilities.
• 45:40
  Speaker 12: In the final year of your presidency, what is your
• 45:43
  Speaker 12: response to these allegations, or are these sources wrong?
• 45:46
  Speaker 11: They are wrong.
• 45:48
  Speaker 5: There's nothing to sustain that. You know, one of the
• 45:51
  Speaker 5: things that... Well, I haven't talked too long.
• 45:54
  Speaker 9: Well, and Alyssa, you know, one of the things I
• 45:57
  Speaker 9: think is that the people who wrote those books were
• 46:00
  Speaker 9: not in the White House with us. And they didn't
• 46:03
  Speaker 9: see how hard Joe worked every single day.
• 46:08
  Speaker 5: I wasn't surprised, not because I didn't think the vice
• 46:11
  Speaker 5: president was the most qualified person to be president.
• 46:13
  Speaker 3: She is.
• 46:14
  Speaker 5: She's qualified to be president of the United States of America.
• 46:17
  Speaker 5: But I was surprised. I wasn't surprised because they went
• 46:21
  Speaker 5: the route of... The sexist route.
• 46:27
  Speaker 1: How do you think Biden did? Is this helping? Is
• 46:32
  Speaker 1: this helping? What is this? What is going on here?
• 46:34
  Speaker 2: I am so exhausted by this conversation because I don't
• 46:37
  Speaker 2: even know what we're supposed to judge Biden by here. Like,
• 46:41
  Speaker 2: was he better than debate? Yes, he was better than
• 46:43
  Speaker 2: he was on the debate stage. Compared to a typical,
• 46:49
  Speaker 2: an average politician anywhere in America delivering a message, was
• 46:51
  Speaker 2: he good?
• 46:52
  Speaker 3: No.
• 46:54
  Speaker 2: There were some good parts. He had some funny lines.
• 46:56
  Speaker 2: Most of it was kind of hard to follow. Dr.
• 46:59
  Speaker 2: Biden had to step in on a couple of occasions.
• 47:03
  Speaker 2: He survived it, I guess. But to what end? Who
• 47:07
  Speaker 2: are we trying to convince here? What's the audience for this?
• 47:11
  Speaker 2: The American people are pretty decided on the question of,
• 47:14
  Speaker 2: was Joe Biden too old? And they were decided long
• 47:16
  Speaker 2: before the debate. And I don't know that one interview
• 47:18
  Speaker 2: or two interviews or a thousand interviews is going to
• 47:21
  Speaker 2: nothing's going to change that perspective yeah.
• 47:25
  Speaker 1: I first of all were you surprised that kamala harris
• 47:30
  Speaker 1: lost no he wasn't surprised and then he starts talking
• 47:33
  Speaker 1: about because they really did the sexist thing hard.
• 47:36
  Speaker 2: And went the sexist route yeah.
• 47:38
  Speaker 1: So they went the sexist route pretty hard and it's
• 47:41
  Speaker 1: like you can you can posit that there is sexism
• 47:45
  Speaker 1: in the electorate but the the they didn't do the
• 47:48
  Speaker 1: sexist route hard. The Republicans didn't. And there's like a
• 47:52
  Speaker 1: mixed race woman. Like, it's just like, I don't know
• 47:54
  Speaker 1: if you paid attention to the campaign or not. But anyway,
• 47:56
  Speaker 1: whatever Joe Biden says aside, I actually think you're right.
• 47:59
  Speaker 1: Like he is, he is a former president now and
• 48:03
  Speaker 1: that's it, right? And if he wants to go out
• 48:05
  Speaker 1: there and talk and defend himself, whatever. We gotta think
• 48:08
  Speaker 1: about the party and think about other Democratic officials and
• 48:12
  Speaker 1: other Democratic politicians who are going to be asked these questions,
• 48:15
  Speaker 1: particularly when these books come out. And, you know, I've
• 48:19
  Speaker 1: heard some of them, some people try to like, you know,
• 48:22
  Speaker 1: they don't want to answer the question. They're worried about,
• 48:25
  Speaker 1: you know, they try to elide the question. And you've
• 48:28
  Speaker 1: got Democratic strategists out there still saying like, oh, good
• 48:30
  Speaker 1: for the Bidens for being out there. And they're hiring
• 48:33
  Speaker 1: people to help them. And it's like, no, no, no.
• 48:35
  Speaker 1: The answer is he shouldn't have run for a second term.
• 48:39
  Speaker 1: And when he did run for a second term, he
• 48:41
  Speaker 1: should have stepped down much earlier after the debate. And
• 48:44
  Speaker 1: his close advisors shouldn't have told him to run again,
• 48:47
  Speaker 1: and they shouldn't have told him he was going to win. And, like,
• 48:50
  Speaker 1: I think that every Democratic politician, particularly those who want
• 48:54
  Speaker 1: to lead the party and want to run in 2028,
• 48:57
  Speaker 1: have to just rip the fucking Band-Aid off.
• 49:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you need an answer to the question. Like, I
• 49:02
  Speaker 2: don't think we– we didn't talk about it on this podcast.
• 49:04
  Speaker 2: We talked about it on Trembley Online. But Elizabeth Warren
• 49:06
  Speaker 2: had a brutal answer when she was pushed on this
• 49:09
  Speaker 2: on a podcast.
• 49:09
  Speaker 11: Yeah.
• 49:11
  Speaker 2: And that's the first of many, right? And you can
• 49:14
  Speaker 2: see some of these people, when they start running for
• 49:15
  Speaker 2: president in a couple of years, particularly those people, maybe
• 49:18
  Speaker 2: like Pete Buttigieg, who I'm sure will have a good
• 49:19
  Speaker 2: answer to it, but who served in the Biden administration,
• 49:23
  Speaker 2: or if Kamala Harris were to run again, she's going
• 49:24
  Speaker 2: to have to answer these questions. She'll probably have to
• 49:26
  Speaker 2: answer them when she does her first interview, but she
• 49:29
  Speaker 2: still has not done since the election ended. To me,
• 49:35
  Speaker 2: on one hand, I am sympathetic to Biden's desire to
• 49:39
  Speaker 2: defend his legacy in the face of these books coming out.
• 49:42
  Speaker 2: I'm sympathetic to the people who work for Biden trying
• 49:45
  Speaker 2: to defend a president that they have great affection and
• 49:49
  Speaker 2: loyalty to and the work they did. And I, like
• 49:52
  Speaker 2: I've thought about this, if Joe, if Barack Obama had
• 49:54
  Speaker 2: lost to Mitt Romney in 2012, I would have been
• 49:58
  Speaker 2: an absolute fucking lunatic trying to do everything I could
• 50:02
  Speaker 2: to like reshape, you know, try to, it's not his fault,
• 50:05
  Speaker 2: like his legacy, like all the great things we did.
• 50:06
  Speaker 2: So I understand that impulse. But there is an element
• 50:10
  Speaker 2: here of reading the room. And there is so much
• 50:14
  Speaker 2: bad shit happening in the country. The threats are so dire.
• 50:17
  Speaker 2: And the threats are so dire to the things that
• 50:19
  Speaker 2: Joe Biden dearly and sincerely cares about that this media
• 50:23
  Speaker 2: tour is about Joe Biden. It's not about Donald Trump.
• 50:27
  Speaker 2: It's about Joe Biden defending himself and his legacy. It's
• 50:30
  Speaker 2: not about, which I wouldn't recommend this, but it's not
• 50:33
  Speaker 2: about using the platform a former president may have to
• 50:36
  Speaker 2: criticize a sitting president, to try to shift the public
• 50:40
  Speaker 2: debate in some way or the other. It's about, he's
• 50:42
  Speaker 2: made it about himself. And that, I think, was someone
• 50:45
  Speaker 2: that is.
• 50:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah, which he made the last fucking year of his
• 50:48
  Speaker 1: presidency about, which is one of the reasons we're all here.
• 50:52
  Speaker 2: That, to me, is frustrating. There's been this like, is
• 50:56
  Speaker 2: it really bad that Biden's back out there again politically?
• 50:58
  Speaker 2: I don't think anyone cares, is the truth. Just no
• 51:02
  Speaker 2: one's paying attention. It is just, we, this was the
• 51:06
  Speaker 2: problem in the election is the American people decided how
• 51:08
  Speaker 2: they felt about Joe Biden. Nothing he said or they
• 51:10
  Speaker 2: did could change, was going to change their mind about
• 51:13
  Speaker 2: it because it was right before the rise. It was
• 51:14
  Speaker 2: like an obvious thing that he should not run for reelection.
• 51:17
  Speaker 2: And so they made up their mind and went. And
• 51:19
  Speaker 2: so I don't, it's just, it's not going to change
• 51:24
  Speaker 2: anything at all. I don't think.
• 51:25
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 51:26
  Speaker 1: No, my, my, the reason I care about this is
• 51:30
  Speaker 1: in a world where reporters just all decided never to
• 51:33
  Speaker 1: ask Democratic politicians about Joe Biden and the 2024 campaign again,
• 51:38
  Speaker 1: then like, let's none of us talk about it. But
• 51:41
  Speaker 1: that's not the world that we live in. They're all
• 51:43
  Speaker 1: going to be asked. And they're all going to get
• 51:46
  Speaker 1: the question. And we don't know that he is suffering
• 51:51
  Speaker 1: from any kind of cognitive decline or condition, right? We
• 51:54
  Speaker 1: just we don't know that we all know what we
• 51:55
  Speaker 1: saw what we've seen for the last year. The man
• 51:59
  Speaker 1: can't communicate coherently on a consistent basis. And that's the
• 52:05
  Speaker 1: job of president. That's the job of candidate. That's how
• 52:08
  Speaker 1: you sell your agenda. That's how you run for office.
• 52:11
  Speaker 1: And he couldn't do it, so he shouldn't have run.
• 52:13
  Speaker 1: And like the people who were closest to him failed
• 52:18
  Speaker 1: him in that regard. Not the whole staff, like you said,
• 52:20
  Speaker 1: not all the people doing the work, but the inner
• 52:22
  Speaker 1: circle and his family failed him in that regard. And
• 52:27
  Speaker 1: he failed too. And so like, there's no I just
• 52:30
  Speaker 1: think there's no reason and there's no there's no purpose
• 52:33
  Speaker 1: to trying to fuzz that up, especially because we have
• 52:37
  Speaker 1: a credibility problem as a party.
• 52:39
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 52:39
  Speaker 1: I mean, both parties have a credibility problem. All politicians
• 52:42
  Speaker 1: have a credibility problem. But I do think that could
• 52:44
  Speaker 1: be a threshold question for a lot of these candidates
• 52:47
  Speaker 1: where it's like if people think that Democrats or politicians
• 52:49
  Speaker 1: in general are just bullshitting them when they talk, then
• 52:52
  Speaker 1: this is going to be a prime example of Democratic politicians,
• 52:56
  Speaker 1: of people thinking that they just got bullshitted again. someone
• 52:59
  Speaker 1: bullshitted them because they gave some answer where they were like, no,
• 53:02
  Speaker 1: I think he was fine. And he did a lot
• 53:04
  Speaker 1: of good things. And now the party lost their mind
• 53:06
  Speaker 1: after the debate. And the polls actually showed this and
• 53:08
  Speaker 1: all the bullshit that they were saying.
• 53:10
  Speaker 2: I think, yeah, I think that's true. I think the
• 53:12
  Speaker 2: press is going to, like, this is going to be
• 53:13
  Speaker 2: a hurdle that attests the press is going to, and
• 53:17
  Speaker 2: I use the press in the broadest thing. I mean,
• 53:19
  Speaker 2: Kristen Walker on Meet the Press to the podcaster who
• 53:22
  Speaker 2: is doing the interview, like Elizabeth Warren got taken down
• 53:24
  Speaker 2: on a podcast, not on the Situation Room or whatever.
• 53:30
  Speaker 2: I think there's just two more things. I know I
• 53:31
  Speaker 2: said I didn't really want to talk about this, but
• 53:32
  Speaker 2: now I have a lot to say about it. So
• 53:33
  Speaker 2: I apologize for that. No, fine. The one thing that
• 53:36
  Speaker 2: I found very frustrating is Biden can't... I mean, I
• 53:40
  Speaker 2: know this is the... We know him. This is the
• 53:42
  Speaker 2: pride in him. But I find it very aggravating and infuriating... Frankly,
• 53:47
  Speaker 2: infuriating when he says that he thinks he would have won.
• 53:49
  Speaker 2: Because I feel like that's so... politically insane right it's
• 53:54
  Speaker 2: just it's like detached from reality but even that even
• 53:57
  Speaker 2: if you truly believe that to to verbalize that in
• 54:00
  Speaker 2: such a direct way repeatedly is to me so disrespectful
• 54:04
  Speaker 2: of kamala harris who he put it in a possible
• 54:06
  Speaker 2: position in a gazillion ways right from yeah like some
• 54:11
  Speaker 2: of the things she had to take on as vice
• 54:12
  Speaker 2: president to the three weeks in or whatever it was
• 54:17
  Speaker 2: between the debate and when he actually got out the
• 54:19
  Speaker 2: month i guess 30 days or whatever it was like
• 54:20
  Speaker 2: that He took that time– like that– like answer that
• 54:24
  Speaker 2: question better in a more respectful way to your vice
• 54:26
  Speaker 2: president who in a different world would have lost his
• 54:30
  Speaker 2: vice– if he had stayed in the race, she would
• 54:32
  Speaker 2: have lost his vice president and she would be the
• 54:34
  Speaker 2: frontrunner for the Democratic nomination. She may still be that
• 54:37
  Speaker 2: right now, but it's different because she was the nominee
• 54:39
  Speaker 2: who lost. And so it's just like– so that angers me.
• 54:42
  Speaker 2: And the second piece is there is just like– it
• 54:46
  Speaker 2: is– deeply naive for Biden and his team to think
• 54:50
  Speaker 2: that he can really change the conversation around his legacy
• 54:54
  Speaker 2: right now with interviews. I think there's a real chance
• 54:59
  Speaker 2: that decades from now, Biden's legacy will greatly improve people's
• 55:03
  Speaker 2: minds because people will look back at some of the
• 55:04
  Speaker 2: really important things he did. He beat Trump, the pandemic,
• 55:08
  Speaker 2: maybe some of the long-term investments he made really bear fruit.
• 55:12
  Speaker 2: And he can end up like someone like Harry Truman
• 55:15
  Speaker 2: who who was a one-term president who was left very
• 55:18
  Speaker 2: weak and then ended up as being seen as one
• 55:20
  Speaker 2: of our greater presidents. But that happens over time. It's
• 55:23
  Speaker 2: not something you're going to solve on the view. And
• 55:25
  Speaker 2: so it's like step back, like putting your, reminding people
• 55:28
  Speaker 2: of why they didn't want you to run in the
• 55:30
  Speaker 2: first place is not going to help that conversation. So
• 55:32
  Speaker 2: it was just like, you have to, if you really
• 55:34
  Speaker 2: truly believe that the work you did was good, then
• 55:36
  Speaker 2: you have to trust history to judge it correctly.
• 55:38
  Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah. All right.
• 55:40
  Speaker 1: When we come back from the break, you'll hear my
• 55:42
  Speaker 1: conversation with strict scrutinies, Leah Lippman. But before we do that,
• 55:45
  Speaker 1: Brand new episode of Polar Coaster just dropped. Dan, what'd
• 55:48
  Speaker 1: you guys talk about this week?
• 55:50
  Speaker 2: We talked about Donald Trump's ill... Speaking of Joe Biden,
• 55:53
  Speaker 2: we talked about Donald Trump's ill-fated efforts to blame the
• 55:56
  Speaker 2: economy on Joe Biden and why that was a strategy
• 55:59
  Speaker 2: doomed to fail miserably. And we took a bunch of
• 56:02
  Speaker 2: really interesting questions from the listeners. It was a great episode.
• 56:07
  Speaker 2: Caroline was amazing as always. Really fun. Check it out.
• 56:09
  Speaker 1: To ask Dan questions or listen to Polar Coaster and
• 56:12
  Speaker 1: to get ad-free episodes... Of all your favorite shows and
• 56:15
  Speaker 1: access to our Discord community, subscribe to Friends of the
• 56:17
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• 56:30
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  Speaker 1: jobs today. Talk to qualified candidates tomorrow. Leah, welcome back
• 57:42
  Speaker 1: to the show.
• 57:42
  Speaker 10: Thanks for having me.
• 57:43
  Speaker 1: Congrats on your new book that's out next week, May 13th.
• 57:48
  Speaker 1: It's called Lawless, How the Supreme Court Runs on Conservative Grievance,
• 57:51
  Speaker 1: Fringe Theories, and Bad Vibes. Here it is right in
• 57:55
  Speaker 1: front of me, displayed. I want to talk about the
• 57:58
  Speaker 1: book a little bit later. First, I want to pick
• 58:01
  Speaker 1: your brain on some of the, a lot of the
• 58:05
  Speaker 1: legal news that's out there, because there's plenty. It has
• 58:07
  Speaker 1: now been several weeks since the Supreme Court upheld a
• 58:11
  Speaker 1: district court's order that the Trump administration must take steps
• 58:14
  Speaker 1: to facilitate the release of Kilmar Obrego-Garcia. Trump administration has
• 58:19
  Speaker 1: refused to do so. Trump basically said he could, but
• 58:24
  Speaker 1: that his lawyers don't want to. That was sort of
• 58:27
  Speaker 1: the essence of the answer he gave Terry Moran of ABC.
• 58:30
  Speaker 1: What happens now? And what can you do if you're
• 58:34
  Speaker 1: Kilmar Obrego-Garcia's lawyers?
• 58:37
  Speaker 10: So I think what is going to happen is the
• 58:39
  Speaker 10: district court proceedings are going to continue to play out.
• 58:41
  Speaker 10: It's likely that Kilmar Abrego-Garcia's lawyers might file a motion
• 58:46
  Speaker 10: to show cause as to why the government isn't in
• 58:48
  Speaker 10: contempt of the lower court ruling directing the administration to
• 58:52
  Speaker 10: facilitate Abrego-Garcia's return. There's always some discomfort with using out-of-court statements.
• 58:58
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 59:00
  Speaker 10: Prove them. And so there is going to be some
• 59:03
  Speaker 10: tension with, well, do you actually take Trump at his
• 59:06
  Speaker 10: word when he wasn't signing a sworn declaration or hadn't
• 59:10
  Speaker 10: been administered an oath and take that at face value
• 59:13
  Speaker 10: and use it against him? But I think it's not
• 59:16
  Speaker 10: just that. It's the fact that, as you say, so
• 59:19
  Speaker 10: much time has passed. They have done diddly squat. And
• 59:22
  Speaker 10: everybody knows that there is an agreement that obviously they
• 59:26
  Speaker 10: have some leverage on.
• 59:28
  Speaker 1: I saw the New York Times report that the State
• 59:31
  Speaker 1: Department sent a diplomatic note to Bukele, basically asking him
• 59:35
  Speaker 1: to facilitate the release, and then he said no. Obviously,
• 59:38
  Speaker 1: this is like a cover-your-ass move. Do you think the
• 59:41
  Speaker 1: courts buy that? Is that enough for the courts? Does
• 59:43
  Speaker 1: that qualify as trying to facilitate?
• 59:46
  Speaker 10: You know, this is some of the difficulty that the
• 59:49
  Speaker 10: Supreme Court, I think, put the lower court in because
• 59:53
  Speaker 10: they told the lower court you cannot actually effectuate the return.
• 59:56
  Speaker 10: That is, you can't specifically order the president to do X, Y,
• 1:00:00
  Speaker 10: or Z. And so that gives the administration some cover
• 1:00:04
  Speaker 10: to do these antics where they, you know, ping Bukele
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 10: and say, wink, wink, nudge, nudge. Won't you return him?
• 1:00:12
  Speaker 10: And then Bukele says, no, I will not. And then
• 1:00:15
  Speaker 10: everyone around us knows what's going on. But it's going
• 1:00:18
  Speaker 10: to be difficult for courts to say, we all know
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 10: what's going on here, right? Like they want some direct
• 1:00:23
  Speaker 10: evidence to kind of prove that. I think there is
• 1:00:26
  Speaker 10: enough for them to say the administration isn't facilitating the return,
• 1:00:30
  Speaker 10: but it's going to be a fight.
• 1:00:32
  Speaker 1: Do you think this ends up back at the Supreme
• 1:00:34
  Speaker 1: Court at some point?
• 1:00:35
  Speaker 10: Yes, unless the Trump administration actually gets Mr. Obrego-Garcia, as
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 10: well as the other individuals that other courts have now
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 10: concluded were wrongfully deported back. There's no reason why their
• 1:00:47
  Speaker 10: lawyers aren't going to ask the Supreme Court and other
• 1:00:49
  Speaker 10: appellate courts to get the administration to actually do something.
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 1: Speaking of things that may end up back at the
• 1:00:56
  Speaker 1: Supreme Court, they chose not to rule on the legality
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 1: of Trump invoking the Alien Enemies Act in this way.
• 1:01:05
  Speaker 1: But now we have two judges, one, a Trump-appointed judge,
• 1:01:09
  Speaker 1: who have ruled that the invocation is unlawful. We also
• 1:01:14
  Speaker 1: have now a declassified intelligence report that the intelligence agencies,
• 1:01:22
  Speaker 1: with the partial exception of the FBI, don't really think
• 1:01:26
  Speaker 1: that the Maduro government is coordinating with Tren de Aragua
• 1:01:30
  Speaker 1: and telling them to go invade the United States. I
• 1:01:33
  Speaker 1: feel like that's going to be headed back to the
• 1:01:35
  Speaker 1: Supreme Court as well, ideally before another few hundred people
• 1:01:38
  Speaker 1: are shipped off to Seacott. Like, what's taking so long there?
• 1:01:41
  Speaker 10: That would be ideal. You know, what's taking so long
• 1:01:44
  Speaker 10: is the Supreme Court created this situation where they forced
• 1:01:47
  Speaker 10: everyone to use this other procedural mechanism to challenge the
• 1:01:51
  Speaker 10: Alien Enemies Act. And that was always going to take
• 1:01:53
  Speaker 10: some additional time to delay the Supreme Court actually having
• 1:01:57
  Speaker 10: to say, obviously, you can't use the Alien Enemies Act here.
• 1:02:00
  Speaker 10: You know, it's not just the declassified intelligence reports and whatnot.
• 1:02:04
  Speaker 1: We can all read.
• 1:02:05
  Speaker 10: And the statute says it applies to foreign nations when
• 1:02:08
  Speaker 10: there's been a predatory incursion or invasion. None of these
• 1:02:11
  Speaker 10: things are true here.
• 1:02:12
  Speaker 3: So....
• 1:02:19
  Speaker 1: Also not a lawyer.
• 1:02:20
  Speaker 3: J.D.
• 1:02:20
  Speaker 1: Vance, who is a lawyer. He went to Yale. It
• 1:02:23
  Speaker 1: doesn't really count. They keep arguing that, you know, due
• 1:02:28
  Speaker 1: process only applies to citizens or, you know, J.D. Vance
• 1:02:31
  Speaker 1: tries to say, well, we can't be expected to offer
• 1:02:35
  Speaker 1: a hearing for every immigrant and asylum seeker before we
• 1:02:40
  Speaker 1: deport them. Do you think there's any court that takes
• 1:02:43
  Speaker 1: that legal argument seriously?
• 1:02:46
  Speaker 10: I hesitate to say no court will because I am
• 1:02:48
  Speaker 10: well aware of some of the individuals that Donald Trump
• 1:02:51
  Speaker 10: has appointed to the lower courts. You know, there was
• 1:02:54
  Speaker 10: the classic, let me order a nationwide ban on medication abortion,
• 1:02:59
  Speaker 10: you know, doozy from Matthew Kaczmarek. There's the Eileen Cannon
• 1:03:03
  Speaker 10: specials of basically single-handedly preventing abortion. Any trial on the
• 1:03:07
  Speaker 10: obstruction and wrongful retention of classified material charges against Donald Trump.
• 1:03:12
  Speaker 10: So I'm not going to say no court, but that
• 1:03:15
  Speaker 10: doesn't mean the arguments aren't utter bullshit.
• 1:03:18
  Speaker 6: Right.
• 1:03:18
  Speaker 10: Like, again, we can all read. The Constitution says no
• 1:03:21
  Speaker 10: person shall be denied life, liberty, property without due process.
• 1:03:26
  Speaker 10: It's not limited to citizens. Also, no one is asking
• 1:03:31
  Speaker 10: for full-blown trials for every individual who is part of
• 1:03:34
  Speaker 10: immigration proceedings. All they're asking for is... Some sort of
• 1:03:40
  Speaker 10: hearing before, by the way, an executive branch official, like
• 1:03:44
  Speaker 10: an asylum officer or immigration judge or board of immigration appeals.
• 1:03:49
  Speaker 10: And it's not my fault that Donald Trump has fired
• 1:03:52
  Speaker 10: a bunch of people, made civil service intolerable and is
• 1:03:55
  Speaker 10: terrorizing bureaucrats. They could offer these hearings if they wanted to. Instead,
• 1:04:01
  Speaker 10: they have opted for effectively concentration camps.
• 1:04:06
  Speaker 1: Also, in that initial Alien Enemies Act ruling, that was
• 1:04:09
  Speaker 1: the 5-4 ruling, even there, the majority was basically like, well...
• 1:04:14
  Speaker 1: The government acknowledges that everyone deserves due process, and that
• 1:04:19
  Speaker 1: is something that we all believe as well, and that
• 1:04:22
  Speaker 1: would seemingly include all nine of them. So I don't
• 1:04:26
  Speaker 1: even know what they're doing there.
• 1:04:27
  Speaker 10: Just because the Supreme Court says something does not make
• 1:04:30
  Speaker 10: it true, John, and this is one of the big
• 1:04:32
  Speaker 10: lessons of my book Lawless, because while the Supreme Court
• 1:04:35
  Speaker 10: said the government acknowledged that people were entitled to notice
• 1:04:39
  Speaker 10: and the opportunity to challenge their detention— In fact, the
• 1:04:42
  Speaker 10: actual papers that the government filed said they were under
• 1:04:46
  Speaker 10: no obligation to modify when an individual was deported or
• 1:04:50
  Speaker 10: expelled in order to give them time to challenge their deportation.
• 1:04:55
  Speaker 10: The government took the outlandish position that Basically, everyone walks
• 1:04:58
  Speaker 10: around with habeas petitions in their pockets and boots. And
• 1:05:01
  Speaker 10: so whenever they are arrested or removed, they have an
• 1:05:04
  Speaker 10: opportunity to challenge their detention because they can just whip
• 1:05:07
  Speaker 10: out that ready-made habeas petition that they all have, you know,
• 1:05:10
  Speaker 10: in their wallets and handy. So, you know, yes, the
• 1:05:14
  Speaker 10: government kind of acknowledged that everyone is entitled to due process,
• 1:05:17
  Speaker 10: but they just defined that to basically mean nothing. And
• 1:05:20
  Speaker 10: the Supreme Court knew that.
• 1:05:21
  Speaker 1: It seems like that would be a profitable business in
• 1:05:23
  Speaker 1: this era, just to make sure that everyone, you can
• 1:05:26
  Speaker 1: sell habeas petitions so that people just have them at
• 1:05:29
  Speaker 1: the ready. Should we get abducted by the government? I
• 1:05:31
  Speaker 1: don't know.
• 1:05:32
  Speaker 10: You know, I think part of the difficulty is the
• 1:05:34
  Speaker 10: government is trotting out so many different bases for deporting
• 1:05:38
  Speaker 10: and expelling people that even if you were carrying around
• 1:05:42
  Speaker 10: a handy habeas petition challenging one possible basis on which
• 1:05:45
  Speaker 10: the government might send you to a foreign mega prison,
• 1:05:47
  Speaker 10: no guarantee that that's the actual ground they would invoke.
• 1:05:51
  Speaker 1: It's a bit of a whack-a-mole there. So it seems
• 1:05:54
  Speaker 1: like Trump keeps losing in court when it comes to
• 1:05:58
  Speaker 1: his most overtly authoritarian actions, banning law firms from practicing
• 1:06:03
  Speaker 1: in federal court, was struck down by a federal judge
• 1:06:07
  Speaker 1: last week, freezing federal funding, tried to do that to Maine.
• 1:06:11
  Speaker 1: That was struck down. His attempt to regulate federal elections.
• 1:06:16
  Speaker 1: It seems like the DOJ has said they're not even
• 1:06:18
  Speaker 1: going to bring that back after that got struck down
• 1:06:20
  Speaker 1: to court. Are you surprised, relieved, mildly heartened?
• 1:06:25
  Speaker 2: What do you think?
• 1:06:27
  Speaker 10: You know, I might use all of the adjectives, but
• 1:06:30
  Speaker 10: I'm not breathing easy just yet, in part because these
• 1:06:35
  Speaker 10: cases have not made their way up through the appellate courts.
• 1:06:38
  Speaker 10: And I don't think it's an accident that lower courts
• 1:06:41
  Speaker 10: are more uniformly ruling against the Trump administration than the
• 1:06:46
  Speaker 10: appellate courts or Supreme Court is. So lower courts, they
• 1:06:51
  Speaker 10: tend to be a little bit less ideological. They're oftentimes
• 1:06:53
  Speaker 10: appointed with the consent of the home state senators. And
• 1:06:56
  Speaker 10: so even people appointed by Trump in states with Democratic senators,
• 1:06:59
  Speaker 10: they're not going to be as cray-cray as the people
• 1:07:02
  Speaker 10: he's putting on the Supreme Court or the appellate courts.
• 1:07:05
  Speaker 1: I do find it– I mean, again, who knows with
• 1:07:08
  Speaker 1: the judges we have out there right now. But I
• 1:07:11
  Speaker 1: do find that the EO on the law firms seems
• 1:07:15
  Speaker 1: pretty obviously unconstitutional. I'm no legal scholar.
• 1:07:19
  Speaker 2: I'm no lawyer.
• 1:07:20
  Speaker 1: But like I don't know how that one gets upheld anywhere.
• 1:07:23
  Speaker 10: I hesitate just to say it's unconstitutional because it manages
• 1:07:28
  Speaker 10: to pack in like at least five different constitutional violations
• 1:07:32
  Speaker 10: to a pretty short executive order.
• 1:07:35
  Speaker 2: So, yeah, that one's really wild.
• 1:07:40
  Speaker 1: Really wild. So all this brings us to your book, Lawless,
• 1:07:43
  Speaker 1: which is about how we came to have a Supreme
• 1:07:45
  Speaker 1: Court majority that essentially tries to disguise increasingly extreme right-wing
• 1:07:50
  Speaker 1: political views as carefully reasoned legal doctrine that comes straight
• 1:07:55
  Speaker 1: from the Constitution. Why did you want to write this book?
• 1:07:59
  Speaker 10: So I started thinking about writing the book after the
• 1:08:01
  Speaker 10: court overruled Roe v. Wade, and it seemed like a
• 1:08:04
  Speaker 10: moment when more people were paying attention to the court
• 1:08:07
  Speaker 10: and understanding just how broken the Supreme Court was. You know,
• 1:08:10
  Speaker 10: from my own perspective, I was pretty nervous and scared
• 1:08:14
  Speaker 10: about the Supreme Court back in 2011 when I was
• 1:08:17
  Speaker 10: clerking for the court. And they came within one vote
• 1:08:19
  Speaker 10: of dismantling the entire Affordable Care Act and health insurance
• 1:08:23
  Speaker 10: for so many people based on some cockamamie theory that
• 1:08:27
  Speaker 10: the government might force us to eat broccoli one day.
• 1:08:29
  Speaker 10: And so I thought people should be more worried about
• 1:08:33
  Speaker 10: the Supreme Court back then. Almost 10 years later, when
• 1:08:37
  Speaker 10: people were more concerned, I thought, I actually want to
• 1:08:40
  Speaker 10: talk to people about just how bad things have gotten
• 1:08:44
  Speaker 10: because there will inevitably be a moment when people come
• 1:08:47
  Speaker 10: to believe maybe the Supreme Court isn't actually so bad.
• 1:08:51
  Speaker 10: And I want them to understand how the court got
• 1:08:54
  Speaker 10: us to this moment we are in and just how
• 1:08:58
  Speaker 10: messed up the court has become.
• 1:09:01
  Speaker 1: You sort of traced the history of how this all started.
• 1:09:04
  Speaker 1: Can you talk about the origin of the court's politicization,
• 1:09:08
  Speaker 1: at least in the modern era, and maybe explain the
• 1:09:12
  Speaker 1: greenhouse effect, which I thought was a great example?
• 1:09:14
  Speaker 8: Yeah.
• 1:09:15
  Speaker 10: So origins, it's really an amalgamation of different grievance stews
• 1:09:20
  Speaker 10: that they kind of threw in together and then decided
• 1:09:23
  Speaker 10: to base a political movement around. Because when the political
• 1:09:27
  Speaker 10: parties were going through this bigger alignment after the civil
• 1:09:29
  Speaker 10: rights movement, you know, you had the Republican Party decide, well,
• 1:09:33
  Speaker 10: we want to cater to white Southerners and conservative Christians.
• 1:09:38
  Speaker 10: And so they were adopting positions that almost by definition
• 1:09:42
  Speaker 10: were not going to appeal to a groups that were
• 1:09:46
  Speaker 10: newly included in civic society. And so they kind of
• 1:09:50
  Speaker 10: leaned into minority rule and having minority rule requires them
• 1:09:57
  Speaker 10: to control the Supreme Court. So they recognize we kind
• 1:10:00
  Speaker 10: of need the Supreme Court in order to impose our
• 1:10:04
  Speaker 10: wildly unpopular weirdo views on the rest of the country.
• 1:10:08
  Speaker 10: And so they went about trying to control the Supreme
• 1:10:10
  Speaker 10: Court and they successfully took it over. through different factors
• 1:10:15
  Speaker 10: I'm happy to talk about, but that's kind of the
• 1:10:16
  Speaker 10: high-level story. And one of those factors relates to this
• 1:10:19
  Speaker 10: greenhouse effect.
• 1:10:20
  Speaker 2: That you just alluded to.
• 1:10:21
  Speaker 10: So the greenhouse effect refers to this idea that once
• 1:10:25
  Speaker 10: Republican presidents appointed Republican justices to the Supreme Court, they
• 1:10:30
  Speaker 10: drifted left because they would read news coverage about them.
• 1:10:34
  Speaker 10: And again, because the median person in the country doesn't
• 1:10:37
  Speaker 10: think women should be stripped of rights, doesn't actually think
• 1:10:40
  Speaker 10: the mega-rich should control politics, when the Republican justices would
• 1:10:44
  Speaker 10: write those things in opinions, they would be criticized. And
• 1:10:47
  Speaker 10: they didn't like that, and so they would drift left.
• 1:10:49
  Speaker 10: And the greenhouse effect was named for former New York
• 1:10:51
  Speaker 10: Times Supreme Court reporter Linda Greenhouse. So they created their
• 1:10:55
  Speaker 10: own ecosystem, like the Federalist Society, that would provide the
• 1:10:58
  Speaker 10: justices with affirmation for doing Republican things. So they got
• 1:11:02
  Speaker 10: some validation and affirmation, and they basically had built-in fans,
• 1:11:07
  Speaker 10: for lack of a better word.
• 1:11:09
  Speaker 1: So basically they realized they had to... keep feeding them
• 1:11:13
  Speaker 1: a steady stream of crazy in their media diet just
• 1:11:16
  Speaker 1: to kind of keep them part of the plan.
• 1:11:19
  Speaker 10: They built this echo chamber and that's part of it.
• 1:11:22
  Speaker 1: Do you get the sense that a lot of elected
• 1:11:25
  Speaker 1: officials and legal experts and law professors are still reluctant
• 1:11:30
  Speaker 1: to view the court's actions and decisions as nakedly partisan
• 1:11:35
  Speaker 1: or political? Or do you think that shifted over time,
• 1:11:38
  Speaker 1: especially with this court?
• 1:11:39
  Speaker 10: I still think there is considerable reluctance to do so.
• 1:11:42
  Speaker 10: I think people tend to gravitate toward focusing on the
• 1:11:46
  Speaker 10: differences between the Republican appointees. So we are fed a
• 1:11:49
  Speaker 10: constant stream of stories about, oh my gosh, Amy Coney
• 1:11:53
  Speaker 10: Barrett has not voted with the other Republican appointees in
• 1:11:56
  Speaker 10: every single case. Doesn't this prove that she is, in fact,
• 1:11:59
  Speaker 10: a big secret liberal and the court is super moderate? No,
• 1:12:04
  Speaker 10: in fact, it does not. And I think people also
• 1:12:07
  Speaker 10: who are part of the legal profession will want to
• 1:12:10
  Speaker 10: believe that the Supreme Court, the law, the legal profession
• 1:12:14
  Speaker 10: is different than politics. It's something special. It requires some
• 1:12:18
  Speaker 10: specialized training. And it does in some respects. But the
• 1:12:21
  Speaker 10: reality is how the court is operating now can be
• 1:12:24
  Speaker 10: explained with reference to politics and ideology. And trying to
• 1:12:29
  Speaker 10: report on Supreme Court decisions and litigation without doing so
• 1:12:32
  Speaker 10: is borderline malpractice at this point.
• 1:12:36
  Speaker 1: Where do you think that reluctance comes from? Because I
• 1:12:39
  Speaker 1: remember I sort of first came in contact with it
• 1:12:43
  Speaker 1: when we started doing the show and it was 2017
• 1:12:46
  Speaker 1: and Gorsuch was nominated and the Gorsuch confirmation. And there
• 1:12:52
  Speaker 1: were people who, you know, in the legal profession had
• 1:12:55
  Speaker 1: worked in democratic politics, more liberal leaning, were like, I
• 1:12:59
  Speaker 1: don't agree with Gorsuch, but you know, He's still a
• 1:13:04
  Speaker 1: good guy, and he's got some solid legal background, and
• 1:13:07
  Speaker 1: he's really smart. Actually, the first time, I heard it
• 1:13:09
  Speaker 1: a little around the Roberts confirmation way back in 2005
• 1:13:13
  Speaker 1: when I was working for then-Senator Obama. People started saying that, too. But,
• 1:13:17
  Speaker 1: you know, it feels like it's dissipated a bit since then,
• 1:13:20
  Speaker 1: but it always surprised me. I'm like, where does this
• 1:13:22
  Speaker 1: come from? Why do you feel the need to do this?
• 1:13:24
  Speaker 10: I don't know where to start with that. I could
• 1:13:28
  Speaker 10: remind you or ask you to remind all of the
• 1:13:31
  Speaker 10: people that were saying that about Neil Gorsuch that in
• 1:13:34
  Speaker 10: the last few weeks, Neil Gorsuch looked at the book
• 1:13:36
  Speaker 10: called Pride Puppy and insisted it had bondage workers involved.
• 1:13:40
  Speaker 10: and sex workers, when in fact all it had was
• 1:13:42
  Speaker 10: a woman in a leather jacket at a pride parade.
• 1:13:44
  Speaker 10: So maybe not such a legal super genius, or maybe
• 1:13:48
  Speaker 10: he can't read.
• 1:13:49
  Speaker 6: I don't know.
• 1:13:49
  Speaker 10: But as to why people want to continue to insist that, no,
• 1:13:56
  Speaker 10: this isn't just political, doing the podcast and studying the
• 1:14:01
  Speaker 10: court has given me insight into the minds of Sam
• 1:14:05
  Speaker 10: Alito and Neil Gorsuch, and those are really dark, bleak places.
• 1:14:09
  Speaker 10: I don't know that I have as firm a grasp
• 1:14:12
  Speaker 10: on why the legal commentariat or legal profession sticks to
• 1:14:16
  Speaker 10: this idea that we shouldn't explain the court and its
• 1:14:21
  Speaker 10: decisions and its reasoning in terms of politics or ideology.
• 1:14:25
  Speaker 10: Some of it comes from for people in the media,
• 1:14:28
  Speaker 10: a desire to appear unbiased and to do both sides.
• 1:14:32
  Speaker 10: I think some of it comes from people in the
• 1:14:33
  Speaker 10: legal profession. Again, a desire to lean on this idea
• 1:14:37
  Speaker 10: that there is a specialized training and expertise, which again,
• 1:14:40
  Speaker 10: I can see there is, but they want that to
• 1:14:44
  Speaker 10: matter more than politics when we need to acknowledge both.
• 1:14:49
  Speaker 10: And part of why I wanted to write the book
• 1:14:52
  Speaker 10: is when you put out the actual reasoning in the
• 1:14:55
  Speaker 10: decisions and you situate that in terms of here were
• 1:14:58
  Speaker 10: the political talking points and that were happening 20 years before,
• 1:15:02
  Speaker 10: 10 years before, the language is just totally ripped from it.
• 1:15:07
  Speaker 10: I mean, John Roberts, again, that super genius guy who
• 1:15:10
  Speaker 10: was just calling balls and strikes, who's super modern institutionalist,
• 1:15:14
  Speaker 10: literally struck down a key provision of the Voting Rights
• 1:15:17
  Speaker 10: Act Section 5 in Shelby County by saying it illegally
• 1:15:21
  Speaker 10: discriminated against who? The former Confederacy. the poor former Confederate
• 1:15:27
  Speaker 10: states who were victimized for being called out for their
• 1:15:30
  Speaker 10: history of racial discrimination. And guess whose objection that was
• 1:15:34
  Speaker 10: to the Voting Rights Act all along? Segregationist Strom Thurmond,
• 1:15:38
  Speaker 10: who literally called it, right, like political vendettas and retribution
• 1:15:43
  Speaker 10: and a campaign against a certain part of the country.
• 1:15:46
  Speaker 10: So yeah, he whitewashed it, sanewashed it a little, but
• 1:15:50
  Speaker 10: it's still the same stuff.
• 1:15:53
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it does. It seems like it mirrors a bit
• 1:15:56
  Speaker 1: what we've seen in electoral politics as well on the left,
• 1:16:01
  Speaker 1: or at least the center left, which is, you know,
• 1:16:03
  Speaker 1: we believe deeply in institutions, democratic institutions, and want to
• 1:16:09
  Speaker 1: defend those institutions or at least make those institutions work
• 1:16:13
  Speaker 1: and make sure that they're trusted. And you get caught
• 1:16:16
  Speaker 1: between wanting to have faith in the institutions and and
• 1:16:20
  Speaker 1: believing that the institutions operate based on a certain set
• 1:16:23
  Speaker 1: of objective rules and principles, whereas the right has decided
• 1:16:28
  Speaker 1: that they just want to tear down those institutions. And
• 1:16:31
  Speaker 1: you're like, well, look, and I wonder just like what
• 1:16:34
  Speaker 1: you think the best strategy for liberals is here or
• 1:16:38
  Speaker 1: people in the legal profession who just want to take
• 1:16:40
  Speaker 1: the court back from sort of the extreme right. Like
• 1:16:43
  Speaker 1: is mirroring what the right has done the best strategy?
• 1:16:47
  Speaker 1: Should there be a liberal version of the Federalist Society
• 1:16:50
  Speaker 1: or what are your thoughts on that?
• 1:16:53
  Speaker 6: Yeah.
• 1:16:53
  Speaker 10: So, you know, In addition to tearing down the institutions,
• 1:16:57
  Speaker 10: I mean, I think we should understand what the Republican
• 1:16:59
  Speaker 10: Party has done with the Supreme Court as effectively weaponizing
• 1:17:03
  Speaker 10: it and capturing the machinery of the state. Because through
• 1:17:06
  Speaker 10: the Supreme Court, they basically made it so Joe Biden
• 1:17:09
  Speaker 10: couldn't govern, right? They took one of his most popular policies,
• 1:17:13
  Speaker 10: student debt relief, and blew it up. And then you
• 1:17:15
  Speaker 10: had people blaming Biden and the Democrats for not doing
• 1:17:18
  Speaker 10: student debt relief when No, no, no, no. That was
• 1:17:21
  Speaker 10: the Supreme Court. So as to this institutionalism, institutionalist thing,
• 1:17:26
  Speaker 10: I agree that is just a big challenge for people
• 1:17:29
  Speaker 10: on the left, Democrats, center left. You know, I believe
• 1:17:33
  Speaker 10: there have to be institutions. I believe in the rule
• 1:17:36
  Speaker 10: of law. It just also is the case that I
• 1:17:39
  Speaker 10: look at the institution we currently have, the Supreme Court,
• 1:17:42
  Speaker 10: and it is not functioning as an institution that is
• 1:17:46
  Speaker 10: part of a constitutional liberal democracy anymore. should function. And
• 1:17:49
  Speaker 10: so it needs to be changed. I don't think that
• 1:17:52
  Speaker 10: makes me not an institutionalist. I actually think that makes
• 1:17:55
  Speaker 10: me an institutionalist because I actually want to bolster and
• 1:17:57
  Speaker 10: make this a legitimate functioning place. As to how we
• 1:18:02
  Speaker 10: get there, I'm not a big fan of this federal
• 1:18:04
  Speaker 10: society of the left, in part because the federal society
• 1:18:07
  Speaker 10: works in part because It's based on fringe theories. They
• 1:18:11
  Speaker 10: are a minority, right? It's easier to credential people in
• 1:18:14
  Speaker 10: that system and have those network effects when you're operating
• 1:18:17
  Speaker 10: with smaller numbers. I think there are parts of the
• 1:18:20
  Speaker 10: conservative legal movement the left should replicate, campaigning against the court,
• 1:18:24
  Speaker 10: making the court part of politics. That should absolutely be
• 1:18:27
  Speaker 10: part of the strategy. Identifying, again, a kind of common
• 1:18:31
  Speaker 10: punching bag that we can all mock and make fun
• 1:18:34
  Speaker 10: of and run against, that's part of what makes politics fun,
• 1:18:37
  Speaker 10: and it can be effective as well. And so I
• 1:18:39
  Speaker 10: think there are components of the conservative legal movement strategy
• 1:18:43
  Speaker 10: that can be replicated, some that can't, and some that
• 1:18:45
  Speaker 10: shouldn't be.
• 1:18:47
  Speaker 1: The book is Lawless, How the Supreme Court Runs. on
• 1:18:50
  Speaker 1: Conservative Grievance, Fringe Theories and Bad Vibes. It's out May 13th,
• 1:18:55
  Speaker 1: but you can pre-order right now wherever books are sold.
• 1:18:59
  Speaker 1: Go get this book. I have to say, you know,
• 1:19:02
  Speaker 1: I never went down the legal path because I took
• 1:19:04
  Speaker 1: a couple of law classes in undergrad and it was
• 1:19:07
  Speaker 1: like too dense for me. And you write this book
• 1:19:10
  Speaker 1: and it's so funny and it's so accessible and still
• 1:19:13
  Speaker 1: so smart that if I had had a book like
• 1:19:16
  Speaker 1: this in college, who knows? Maybe I would have gone
• 1:19:17
  Speaker 1: to law school. So everyone go buy Lawless. Go preorder
• 1:19:22
  Speaker 1: it and then go buy it next week.
• 1:19:23
  Speaker 10: Well, thank you so much. And if you're on the fence,
• 1:19:26
  Speaker 10: I just say try to make Sam Alito even madder
• 1:19:30
  Speaker 10: than he already is.
• 1:19:32
  Speaker 1: Yes. That is it. That is it. Leah Lippman, thank
• 1:19:35
  Speaker 1: you as always for joining.
• 1:19:37
  Speaker 10: Thank you.
• 1:19:42
  Speaker 1: That's our show for today. Thanks so much, Talia, for joining.
• 1:19:45
  Speaker 1: And we will be back with a new show on Tuesday.
• 1:19:48
  Speaker 1: Everyone have a great weekend.
• 1:19:49
  Speaker 6: Bye, everyone.
• 1:19:51
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