Latest / Identity at the Center / #425 - EIC 2026 Recap & IdentiBeer Berlin

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#425 - EIC 2026 Recap & IdentiBeer Berlin · Identity at the Center

0:04
This is identity at the center. Welcome to the Identity of the
0:11
Center podcast. I'm Jeff, and that's Jim.
0:12
Hey, Jim. Hey, Jeff, how are you?
0:14
Oh, not so bad yourself. Great, man.
0:16
We're at EIC 2026. I mean it and, you know, taking
0:21
down that 4th wall, this is our recap.
0:23
So we're doing it at the end of the conference.
0:25
We recorded a couple of episodes prior to this.
0:28
It's been a great week, hasn't it?
0:30
Yeah, it's been a fun conference.
0:31
Second time here, Definitely have gotten a little more
0:35
accustomed to Berlin and so I know my way around a little bit.
0:37
So which is kind of cool. But yeah, conference has been
0:40
great. We're recording this Thursday
0:41
sort of afternoon. So technically there is still
0:44
some time that is left for things like more, you know,
0:48
couple keynotes, couple more sessions, stuff like that.
0:50
We've got an episode of record with Martin Cooper here in in in
0:54
a few minutes. But yeah, we're kind of like
0:57
just slightly ahead of the end of it, but I've gotten a lot
1:00
done. We always talk about how we go
1:02
to conferences and we never have time to go to sessions, right?
1:05
We're always doing something. But EIC is kind of the exception
1:09
for us. We get to go to a, a fair number
1:12
of the sessions, plus we get to rub elbows with a lot of folks
1:15
who we know from the identity space over the years.
1:20
And you know, I, me personally, I don't know as many people
1:24
here. So even though I've made a lot
1:25
of new friends this week, I feel like there are the, there is a
1:30
level of comfort and say, oh, I know you.
1:32
Hi how you doing? Trying to remember people's
1:34
names, things like that. Yeah, and actually I feel like
1:37
I've, I've aced that topic this week.
1:40
One of those people being Eve Mailer, right?
1:43
Obviously, once I see Eve, I know Eve every time.
1:46
I never forget her name. She was doing a book signing
1:50
yesterday of her book Mastering Digital identity.
1:54
She has offered graciously to sign a book and make it
1:58
available for our listener. So get this, this is what you
2:01
have to do. We're going to have a raffle for
2:03
this. One copy is if you're watching
2:07
this on YouTube, Go down to the comments sections and make
2:11
comment. That could be Jim and Jeff or
2:13
stupid, or it doesn't have to be like a compliment.
2:17
Obviously be nice, but and if you're listening, go out to
2:22
YouTube and make sure you're not commenting on one of the short
2:24
videos because we might not see that.
2:26
So that'd be on the main video and it's got to be by June 12th.
2:30
So we'll do the raffle right after June 12th and that book
2:34
will get shipped out hopefully right before I dinner verse and
2:38
we'll contact the our winner with, you know, the information
2:43
that they've won. So if this episode.
2:45
Goes out on June 1st as planned. That's really about 9 days for
2:50
maybe 10 depending on your math. Yeah, it depends on your math,
2:53
right? Right to get that and so again,
2:55
the rules are what you have to comment on the the main YouTube
2:59
video for this episode. Any comment again, please be
3:03
nice and then you'll pick the best comment.
3:08
Or how's that going to work? No.
3:09
Yeah, if I pick the best comment, you have to be really
3:11
nice. No, I will just.
3:14
I don't know, Maybe I'll just upload them to chat and I'll
3:18
tell chat to pick one. OK.
3:20
Is that fair? I don't know fair either.
3:25
I'll let you handle whoever the whoever the winner is.
3:27
But yeah, that's very cool of Eve to to do that for us.
3:30
Yeah, super cool. And like I said, we'll, we'll
3:33
contact you to get your shipping address.
3:35
So get it in the mail and you don't have to be based in the
3:38
United States anywhere in the world.
3:40
So very nice. Thank you, Eve.
3:43
And I guess I did an OK job explaining it because you spoke
3:47
back pretty much the exact case. I think so.
3:50
I hope so. We're still figuring it out kind
3:52
of somewhat on the fly. But the point is there's a book
3:56
from Eve that will be signed. Someone will win it, but to win
4:00
it you have to comment on the YouTube video.
4:03
Yeah. And so one of the coolest things
4:05
this week was kicked off at the Identity Bier on Monday evening.
4:10
Our buddy Espenbago, of course, pulled it together, and he was
4:13
there making sure that everybody felt welcome and knew what to
4:17
do. May we?
4:20
We recorded a little bit of an interview with us then that's
4:24
going to be the second, the back half, more than half of this
4:28
video, right? Hopefully we speed it up and
4:31
don't spend too long doing the recap.
4:33
So stick around for that. But let's get into our recap.
4:36
What were some of the highlights for you, Jeff?
4:38
Yeah. So I mean for me the hallway con
4:40
is always strong. Today I spent I think, let me
4:45
watch. Yeah, it was about like 2 1/2
4:47
hours at one table in the vendor Expo kind of area talking with
4:52
huge from people hearing about some really cool ideas for
4:55
things in the future I can't talk about yet, but I hope they
4:57
come to fruition. But that was kind of cool.
4:59
So for me the hallway con was very strong.
5:02
Just talking with people that I really only see at conferences
5:05
and things like that. Another couple things where
5:09
there was a couple keynotes that were really good.
5:11
There was EIC for EIC the the keynote with Eve Mailer on the
5:16
first day was awesome. And then yes, privacy and
5:20
consent was a good one. And then I got to tell you,
5:21
Elizabeth Garber, like absolutely hit a home run with
5:25
her closing keynote on Monday or I'm sorry, Tuesday.
5:28
I think it was days are weird here on time zones, but
5:34
absolutely crushed it. It was about identity and sort
5:38
of a change in United States. So there was, you know, some
5:42
some discussion around what that was, but I've never seen anybody
5:45
get a standing ovation for a keynote at an identity
5:50
conference. So, you know, I'm just an
5:52
amazing job by Elizabeth and could not have been, you know,
5:57
more psyched for her to to buy this.
5:58
I mean, she's very focused on human rights and how that
6:02
relates to privacy and identity. And so I missed the session.
6:07
Missed that part of the session, right?
6:08
I mean, the keynotes span quite a bit.
6:11
They're not like 2 hours of keynotes and you're on your way.
6:14
I like it. Those are some of the other
6:15
conferences. I think there were like four or
6:18
five hours of keynotes on their first day.
6:21
I will say it's the best, best conference presentation I think
6:25
I've ever seen. Oh, wow.
6:27
One, because it was timely, 2, because it resonated with so
6:31
many different people in the audience, and it was just
6:34
extremely well executed. I I.
6:36
I don't know what Cooper. Cole's kind of plan is to like
6:39
broadcast this content, but I hope that more people get to see
6:42
it than just the folks that were here.
6:43
It was really, really good. So there we go.
6:46
I'm I'm on the Elizabeth Garber fan, you know, fan train right
6:50
now. But it was just so good.
6:51
Hopefully it makes its way up to YouTube or some kind of
6:54
shareable platform, and if it does, we'll make sure that we
6:58
get it shared out through our LinkedIn and things like that.
7:03
Couple things for me, I mean, I enjoyed the keynotes I just sit
7:06
through. I actually sat through hours of
7:07
keynotes. It's too bad that I left before
7:10
Elizabeth because obviously I missed something special.
7:14
I also met some, like I said, some new friends.
7:18
And one thing that I got it was a pretty firm invitation to join
7:23
a conference in Brazil next year.
7:25
So for not just for me, but for the podcast.
7:28
So hopefully taking the podcast to another continent.
7:32
Jeff, what is it? What do you think of that?
7:34
I think that's awesome. I mean, happy to take the show
7:36
on the road wherever we can, sread the gospel of identity and
7:40
access management, and make some new friends along the way.
7:42
What's not to like? What's not to like?
7:45
Speaking of Brazil, so when we were with identity back in the
7:49
day, we had a bunch of colleagues who were from Brazil.
7:52
1 was Doctor Rosario Rundini and ran into him in the hallway.
7:57
Didn't even realize he'd be sitting in a session like an
8:00
hour later. He was cool as a cucumber when I
8:02
met him. I know an hour before I go on
8:05
stage, I'm usually a little nervous.
8:07
I don't want to be around people.
8:08
But he gave a really good talk on security AI agents like
8:16
agents that you build, but at a technical level.
8:18
Guess what? It is not a magic wand.
8:21
What? I thought there was a product
8:23
that would solve all my needs. Yeah, well, it might be that,
8:25
but it's there's some technology behind the scenes, so that was
8:29
really cool. I was also in a session with
8:34
some friends of the show, Marco Venuti and Jerome Torsten and
8:40
they were talking. CIAM also made a new friend,
8:43
Olaf Greevey. Hope I got that right.
8:46
And you might know Olaf, he was a founding member of ID Pro.
8:51
ID Pro. We are the official podcast of
8:53
ID Pro and we have a discount code on our website for ID Pro
9:00
is for new members only right? New members first year get $25
9:03
off ID pro.org/IDAC. But yes, hopefully people can
9:07
take advantage of that. It's on our website
9:09
idcpockets.com. Just click the the banner for ID
9:12
Pro there and it'll take you right to it.
9:13
Yeah. And then you know, a friend that
9:18
we've made through the the sessions, Vlad Shapiro, he also
9:22
did a session that I sat through and he was kind of comparing
9:26
nuclear regulation with AI regulation.
9:30
His point was that we're in the 60s from an AI regulation
9:34
standpoint relative to nuclear. So it's kind of like under
9:38
regulated right now. I don't know if I totally agree
9:41
with it, but I thought that the contrast of nuclear and AI, you
9:45
know, it got me thinking like, OK, there is probably some
9:48
hidden dangers there. Hidden dangers and AI and giving
9:51
it access to all your information shocking yeah I I I
9:55
actually missed Vlad so sorry Vlad.
9:56
I know that we talked about me trying to get out there, but the
9:59
hallway convention was just too strong from a gravity for me to
10:04
pull away from but. I don't know.
10:06
I guess what we ought to do is just think over our listeners
10:09
for making this identity at the center kind of a community.
10:14
We've had, you know, so many people who know us and stop us
10:18
in the hallways and just thank us for putting out the content.
10:21
But we want to thank you, because this wouldn't happen if
10:24
you weren't listening. Yeah, people listening and
10:26
obviously sponsors being able to fund activities like this is a
10:30
big part of why we're able to come out here.
10:31
And and, and definitely for Cooper and Cole, right, The
10:34
they've been so great to work with Again.
10:35
I keep shouting out Marita. She poked her head behind the
10:38
camera. People didn't see it was like
10:39
the guys recording like, yes. But she's been great to work
10:42
with. And that really the whole team
10:43
here at at the PCC Center, you know, getting us fans for this
10:46
very warm room that we've been in.
10:48
And we've avoided some catastrophes with cameras
10:51
overheating just after we finished recording some
10:53
episodes. So there's a lot that kind of
10:56
happens behind the scenes. Can I bring this?
10:57
And really, I feel like we kind of have almost the easiest part,
11:00
right? It's kind of like, OK, let me
11:01
set the camera and set the mics and let's just talk.
11:04
But there's so much that goes into this and definitely
11:06
appreciative of all of that. Yeah.
11:07
So we've like Jeff Bench and we have a lot of content that's
11:11
going to come out over the next couple of weeks that we've
11:13
recorded here. But I think the first thing is
11:15
this episode is interview with Espenbago.
11:19
So enjoy that. Yeah.
11:20
So that'll be what you see next. And then the next couple weeks,
11:23
we'll see episodes from Thomas Sarnhofer from SPAR, ICS, Martin
11:27
Sandron, who's been on the show before from IKEA, And then we're
11:30
actually going to record with Martin Kupinger himself right
11:33
after we finish this little video here.
11:34
And you'll see that coming out down the road as well.
11:36
So yeah, why don't we go ahead and get to Identity Beer?
11:39
Well, great time was had by all. Hope people enjoy it.
11:41
Again, thanks everybody for being part of this.
11:43
And we'll see you in the next one I have.
11:46
Had the honor to more or less do the pre identity made UPS in the
11:53
last few years and quite honored that the identity beer franchise
11:58
now has found so many different other countries and other places
12:05
where we have new chapters. Could everyone who is organizing
12:10
an identity beer, identity beer raise the hand?
12:15
Not that many. Yeah.
12:17
Wonderful. So it's going to be more.
12:20
So if you want to know how to create your own chapter and run
12:26
that in your own city, please ask any of us.
12:29
Aspen is running the community and I'm quite honoured that so
12:33
many of you already showed up. So now just enjoy the evening.
12:38
There's a small selection of food here right from the BBQ.
12:42
There's a larger selection of beverages and food over there.
12:46
We have that small keg here which will probably run out
12:51
quite quickly when I see all the.
12:52
Thirsty people. Looking at me right now, but
12:55
afterwards is just as is the policy, by your own boots, by
13:00
your own stuff. Welcome and let's all have a
13:03
great evening and have a core Aspen, the founder of this whole
13:06
thing. Welcome.
13:11
Yeah, Nope. Just what Sebastian said.
13:14
And if you think there should be something like this in your
13:17
city, we try to make it easier and easier for people to get
13:21
started up as a franchise. So happy to have everyone here
13:25
and remember this is about spreading the word to people
13:27
that are not all the old guys that already know each other
13:31
right? So if you find yourself at a
13:35
table where you know everyone, you're sitting at the wrong
13:38
table. It's about welcoming newbies.
13:41
It's about welcoming new people to the community and making sure
13:46
everybody knows that identity management is about openness and
13:49
collaboration across boundaries and everything.
13:53
So please make that work. Thanks so much.
13:57
I. Really don't look there and now
14:00
we'll open it and and as I'm not really qualified, I have.
14:05
The professional doing it, I try my best.
14:16
Welcome to the Identity Center Podcast.
14:17
I'm Jeff, and that's Jim. Hey, Jim.
14:19
Hey. Jeff, how are you?
14:20
Strange seeing you in person. I know.
14:22
You're a strange person to look at.
14:24
Hey, happy identity here Aspen. Happy I done a beer.
14:29
I'm proof of what you've been saying is that you do not have a
14:32
beer. I do not Coca-Cola is my
14:35
beverage of choice. If Coke wants a sponsor the Idea
14:38
Center podcast, I will even do product placement with the
14:41
label. You're known for not always
14:43
having a beer though, sorry. No, yeah, it's just not my
14:45
thing. But the cool thing is, identity
14:48
beer is not just beer. It's really identity friends, I
14:52
guess. Identity Colleagues A.
14:54
Bit more about people. So I wanted to sit down with the
14:58
US bend because this is the second year that I've been to
15:01
Identity Beer here in Berlin, second year at EIC that we're
15:03
doing this. Jim, you were here with us last
15:06
year as well. It seems like it's like double
15:09
what it was last year. I don't know if that's an
15:11
official count or whatever, but it seems like there's a lot of
15:13
people here. Is that a question?
15:16
Yes. Are you?
15:17
Proud. You're the, I mean, you're the
15:19
exact, Yeah. Look, you're the godfather of
15:21
Identibeer. And so people are coming up
15:23
showing, you know, paying tributes, right?
15:25
Things like that. Watch.
15:26
My children grow up. They definitely do.
15:28
And I mean, it means that we've been doing something right,
15:32
right in setting their direction.
15:34
It just waiting somewhere that people like to go.
15:38
And the, the main point is that there's so many good people that
15:43
should come here, right? And there's so many good people
15:45
here. I think it's, it's a testament
15:47
to what what we've been doing. Often identity is around the
15:51
world that's saying that people recognize something in it that
15:54
they want to come from. So I think we're maybe 50% more,
15:59
probably not double, but. Still, that's pretty healthy
16:02
numbers. Probably a couple 100 people
16:03
here, maybe 150, something like that.
16:05
I'm not. I don't think it's going to stop
16:06
there. Yeah, Yeah.
16:08
Well, we've been here. Look, so it's starting at six.
16:10
We're now 2 1/2 hours until or 8:30 local time, but that.
16:12
Conference hasn't even started. Yeah, right.
16:14
Yeah. So more so people are still
16:16
coming in. But I mean, I look around and
16:18
we've got like a ton of friendly faces.
16:20
Some people I know I would say no, maybe 1015% of the people
16:25
here. So there's a lot of new people
16:26
that I'm meeting for the first time, but it's a, it's just a
16:28
fun event. I mean, I, you know, the one
16:30
thing I hear about when I talk with people sort of in little
16:33
pockets is everybody comments on how good of a community that the
16:37
identity people are. And like this is a big part of
16:39
it is like people getting together, having fun.
16:42
People are cool for the most part, right?
16:44
There's like not a lot of jerks, right?
16:47
It's, it's a very easy going and kind of opening community.
16:50
If you're, if you're working an identity, if you're interested
16:52
in identity, like come on down. Really good group of people to
16:56
get together. The main point here is that I
16:59
can't take credit for that. They were good people already,
17:01
right? It's just that why haven't we
17:04
been better at just getting together?
17:07
That was the main concept of identity here to start with.
17:11
That was just not just an I am meet up, but something that, you
17:15
know, has a brand and has an identity of its own that we can
17:19
flock around and we we like to flock.
17:21
To. Clarify.
17:23
It's identity beer, not identity beer.
17:27
And we like to save some time there, right?
17:30
With identity beer, I took that inspiration from your American
17:35
way of just collapsing the words together.
17:39
But it's not always that easy to tell people because there's a
17:43
lot of aspiring identity beers out there that we have to
17:47
correct now, but we're stuck with it now.
17:50
So it's identity beer, and that's what the website is as
17:54
well, right? Identity dot beer.
17:57
That's where you go to find kinds of stuff, like we're just
17:59
talking before we hit record. There's a few that are coming
18:01
up, new chapters that are kind of springing up.
18:04
So there's one in Nashville. So I guess by the time people
18:06
watching here, this one, that one will be done.
18:09
But Nashville, Chicago, I think San Francisco has one coming up
18:12
too. No, San Francisco has been
18:14
around for a couple of years. San Francisco is a very
18:18
competitive environment when it comes to meet ups.
18:20
Really. OK.
18:21
New York, Yeah, OK. New York is also coming up with
18:24
a second event of the year later in June.
18:29
And I'm especially proud of identity beers, you know,
18:33
surviving and then thriving in environments like that.
18:37
And I mean, Chicago will have a lot of people probably.
18:40
So you have Austin is coming up because Sarah Cecchetti is
18:44
moving there. And then the Seattle chapter of
18:50
the I pro meet up or for the rebrand as an identity beer.
18:53
But I think in a few months you'll see identity beer is
18:57
taking over a bit more of the oxygen.
18:59
The meet up room in the US as well.
19:02
We have the Sao Paulo meet up a couple of weeks ago with I think
19:07
almost as many people as those. Wow, that's cool.
19:10
That's a pretty that makes me proud.
19:13
That's pretty cool. So wait.
19:14
I've been to go to Rome. Next week, yes.
19:18
Are you going to that one? I am.
19:20
You're going to that one. Yeah, I can, but you always have
19:22
to represent. Well, I mean, you're the
19:24
quintessential identity ambassador.
19:27
I won't correct anybody who mispronounces you.
19:30
I mean, I'd be interested to hear how they pronounce it in in
19:35
Italian. Yeah, but it's.
19:37
Identity Beer. Close to Italian, but yeah, no,
19:43
I'll do that. It's the only thing I don't want
19:46
is someone to have as the you know URL or the chapter address
19:51
identity beer because it sounds like a rib or.
19:56
Something like. That made in China.
19:58
The way to do it? We will have identity in China,
20:00
so. What do they call that?
20:01
URL. Squatting.
20:03
Yeah, domain, Squatting domain. Squatting you need to domain
20:06
squat that do. You mean I need to acquire
20:09
identity here just to be sure? Just in case you never know.
20:13
Does that to be a jerk. It's just to make sure that it
20:16
doesn't somebody just accidentally following me.
20:19
Yeah. Look, domain names are the new
20:20
real estate, not the new real estate, but they're real estate.
20:23
And so you need to have in. The last. 25 years yeah, you
20:26
need your house, but you also need the surrounding properties
20:29
to make sure people don't encroach.
20:31
Sometimes you need fences or walls, right, To make sure,
20:34
especially so, yeah, you know, you need, you need a couple of
20:38
adjacent properties to make sure that you're good.
20:41
Well. Then there's of course the
20:43
trademark question in general as well, right?
20:45
So we need to move into that probably.
20:48
But we have this philosophy in general that if someone and that
20:52
would probably be someone vendor related wanted to just hide
20:56
general trademark and say now they're identity here.
20:59
I think we have enough of our own identity that.
21:02
You got what, 7 years, what 7 years of doing this?
21:05
I mean, that's, that's a pretty long time to establish usage.
21:08
I know we're now getting into trademark, at least for the US.
21:10
Yeah, we're such. An expert on that.
21:12
Yeah. I mean, we trademarked that day
21:13
in the centre a long time ago, but.
21:16
I'm in Oslo, right? I'm in the.
21:17
Yeah. So you're not following those
21:18
rules. I know.
21:19
But we do have, we do have trade metal loss in Norway as well.
21:25
Enforcing it globally cost a bit more.
21:28
It does, we have, But still we don't think we need it, right.
21:31
I mean, this is a case of just look around, Yeah, saying that
21:35
we would probably stick together.
21:37
You know, we've, I would say we've been fortunate we don't
21:40
run into many issues, though the few that have come up have been
21:44
handled via a simple LinkedIn message.
21:47
Hey, you know, you really can't do that.
21:49
You know, can you just take that down and that's fine.
21:52
Look, this is an identity podcast.
21:54
We're not here just to talk about identity beer.
21:56
We are at EIC. Is there something specific that
21:58
you're looking forward to for the conference or are you or is
22:01
this it, this is the highlight for you for the week.
22:03
And I know Martin Cooper here is around here somewhere maybe
22:06
still. So this will be just between us.
22:09
I can be honest about that. Last year I was here only for
22:11
the identity years and then I had to go home because I
22:15
promised my daughter to be at a concert.
22:17
So that was the priority. Well.
22:19
Let's see. OK, So what was the priority?
22:21
So what was the concert? Tyler, The Creator.
22:24
Okay, well, he's big enough. Yeah, I know the name.
22:26
Yeah, I. Thought it was Taylor Swift I
22:29
mean. Taylor Swift, too.
22:30
That's a huge comfort. So yeah, I mean, you can't miss
22:32
that one. Either all of a sudden that was
22:35
good concert, but I didn't miss the conference last year and I'm
22:39
happy that I'm not listening in the conference this year.
22:42
There's a lot of topics here. And I mean, if you go into the
22:45
app, it makes you try to register all the topics you're
22:48
interested in and which ones you're selling something for or
22:53
buying something for. Do you do that?
22:54
No, because I didn't do the app. I did not want to do the social
22:57
game. I want to keep my options open.
23:00
I just, but I'm interested in AI very generally.
23:05
You and 95% of the people. Interested in AI?
23:08
It's hard to say. No to network about AII.
23:11
Don't think it's that big of a deal AI.
23:15
It's going to be gone mixed. Yeah, it's just a fad.
23:19
Actually never heard, I'm sorry. And Tony was going through the
23:21
red strings and we're like, what is this AI thing?
23:24
Can't even spell it. But I'm interested in hearing
23:28
about the ways people do identity.
23:32
And what I mean by that is, I mean, we're talking about trying
23:35
to ultimate, we're talking about trying to do things Wicker and
23:39
at larger scale. I mean, that's what all of us
23:42
are asked to. And my observation is that we're
23:46
not really good at identifying the specific data that is needed
23:51
for making the right decisions and the vendors aren't really
23:55
helping us with that. I mean, I think the analytics
23:58
category of IVIB helps a bit. Well, it doesn't guide us
24:02
directly towards these are the right data that we can trust to
24:07
make automated decisions. So those are the conversations
24:11
I'm going to be looking for. These people talk to me and say
24:14
that, yeah, they have solutions. Then I have a lot of questions
24:16
for you. Yeah, that's the kind of
24:19
conversation. You're in the right life.
24:21
It's all about the in person conversations and being able to
24:24
hear people and maybe see a demo and not commit 1/2 hour or an
24:30
hour to. But that's an interesting point
24:33
though. It's like, you know, a lot of
24:34
these vendors are approaching identity, especially non human
24:36
identity from just the identity angle and they're kind of
24:39
assuming that you've got the data covered somewhere, which
24:43
talking about you and your day job, my day job, they don't.
24:46
That's always been the assumption though, right?
24:47
Yeah. You would look at IGA system
24:50
when they say your biggest problem might be we don't have a
24:54
good list of our contractors, but their assumption is you have
24:57
a good list of your contractors and you're going to send our
25:00
system the data. That's a big assumption.
25:04
And now we're going to do it faster and more automated, and
25:07
so I'm sure nothing bad will happen.
25:10
Are you talking about the non human, the so-called nonhuman
25:13
identities? As if we had a definition that
25:16
clearly told us that these identities are more human than
25:21
others or we haven't made that skill in the organization.
25:25
And it's not that hard to do. But those are also the
25:28
conversations that I find that we should have had one world
25:31
saying, OK, you tell me. Non human additives.
25:32
OK, let me tell. Tell me then what does that mean
25:36
in your company and what data what are you collecting along
25:41
the way? Because you're talking a list of
25:43
contractors or a list of so and so.
25:45
Then we need to look at how were they, is this made?
25:49
What processes do we have to collect that data?
25:51
Because it's all about data. It's all about data and reliable
25:54
data and the question of can we use that data for doing things
25:58
quicker? But it's, I think sometimes it
26:01
feels like we're pretty immature as an industry when you don't
26:06
die to scientists. What?
26:07
Yeah, I look, so I, I say NHI because, you know, while it was
26:11
around here somewhere, Mr. NHI, right.
26:12
So I want to make sure I'm respectful.
26:14
Whether you call it NHI or workload identity or service
26:18
account machine, like there's so many different things.
26:20
I think, yes, we're probably all talking about the same things,
26:25
but it's a good reminder to get on the same page because not
26:28
every organization calls them the same thing.
26:31
And you know, I'm one of my not pet peeves.
26:34
One of the things that most interesting in how we talk about
26:37
identity. So I think that the way we talk
26:40
about NH eyes or whatever we do steers the kind of conversations
26:44
and then this kind of solutions that we're going to build upon
26:47
of that. And if we didn't, we talked
26:49
about, you know, defining talking about the same thing,
26:52
the definitions beforehand. And I think our products will be
26:56
poor or because of that's. Always the shortcoming in the
26:59
industry though, is that people have different words for the
27:02
same things or just, you know, use the different word or the
27:06
same word for different things. No one has the patience in a
27:09
meeting to say now we'll use the rest of this meeting to actually
27:13
come to terms with what we mean. We're always rushing ahead,
27:16
right? It's also like an era of like,
27:19
well, who's right as it say how I used the term roles or things
27:24
like that. So I mean roles stands out in my
27:27
head, but contractors is another like what is that?
27:31
Is there a standard definition that should fit everyone?
27:35
I think people have made attempts at it.
27:36
Like I know Ivy Pro has got the body of knowledge and it's made
27:41
the attempt, but there's no one that's going to force us that to
27:44
use. And then there's a famous for
27:46
taking a term and like taking ownership of that term, trying
27:50
to build a definition around that term that not everybody has
27:54
signed up to use. One of the biggest problems is
27:58
that the ones that have the most time and money to try to take
28:01
membership with terms are marketing departments.
28:03
Yeah, that's in the case for. But for good or bad, they've
28:08
been doing that for a long time. It's not a new situation.
28:10
I remember Victorio was saying one of your one of your episodes
28:15
and one of his own that yeah, it's always a battle of terms.
28:18
But in the end, marketing always wins.
28:22
Mark the word win, which is kind of true, but we don't need to
28:25
make it. I mean, we we can take up the
28:27
battle in a way. So by or not the IT pro body of
28:30
knowledge, thus is specifically taking an open the fruit and
28:34
saying we will define the terms or we'll capture all the
28:38
different usages of the terms and then people can find out how
28:43
it's been used. It's not been people aren't
28:47
looking at the different usages because they look at one article
28:50
and just choose that definition. But the idea is I.
28:54
Think a lot of people get into the industry by learning a
28:57
specific technology that their company bought and then that
29:01
vendor gets to define what that term means for them.
29:05
And I think the word role is just one that we find 100
29:09
different definitions where you can say to somebody like what is
29:12
a role like? So everyone comes into this
29:16
industry with one specific bias and perspective, which is good
29:20
because of bootstraps them into the industry.
29:23
But what we need to do is try to help them to see that there are
29:27
other perspectives and lower the thresholds of trying to adapt on
29:31
the perspectives because that will make us better at identity
29:34
proportionally. I mean, that's the main reason I
29:37
volunteer for doing the intro to Identity and Identity 1st every
29:41
year, because then I can try to affect me.
29:45
Let's talk about that one for a minute because it feels like you
29:48
get, what is it 45 minutes and you have a a 60 minute
29:52
presentation that you have to present. 45 minutes.
29:54
Yeah, yeah. Sum up all of identity in 45
29:56
minutes. Go.
29:58
I have 45 minutes now. Yeah, right.
30:01
You, you didn't say hello, already picked me.
30:03
Also, the slide deck for that master clause, which is 15
30:07
minutes is at the moment 90 slides, which is way too much.
30:12
And a lot of those slides are at the end.
30:15
The bullet points of these are things that you probably need to
30:18
reference, right? So we're changing that a bit
30:22
this year with a lot of that reference material and just
30:27
saying this will show it to you. You can download it here, but we
30:32
need to find out how to make people better at asking
30:36
questions and taking part in conversations.
30:39
I mean, I'm talking about newcomers here, but it would be
30:42
true for everyone, right? The people that come into a
30:44
large conference like Identity Verse with 2000 people or
30:47
something like that. I'm talking from my own
30:50
experience. The first time I was at Identity
30:52
Verse, it was when it was still clouded into Summit in Chicago
30:55
in 1717, and I got a lot out of it.
30:59
But I didn't get to connect to or talk to anyone there.
31:03
I'm not American, so it's harder for me to just walk up to
31:06
someone and say, hey, can we talk about something?
31:09
Well, I ended up not really talking to someone at all in
31:13
during the week. There's other people I thought
31:15
maybe I knew, like Ian, for example.
31:16
I didn't do it outside music and just want to go in front of me.
31:19
I didn't talk to him because that's that's Ian.
31:21
I can't talk to him. You can you can talk to Ian
31:24
Ian's cool. I know, I know, but.
31:25
There is a bit of that outsider imposter syndrome I think too
31:28
when you code those things. Because I was at the same
31:30
conference, I did not interact with very many people at that
31:32
one because it was still relatively new ish to the field
31:36
right of going to conferences. So this is one of the reasons
31:39
I'm starting identity here to make that easier to more people.
31:43
And also that's kind of my main motivation for that intro to
31:46
read into class. It says when I hope as many
31:49
people as possible go to that class because what we try to say
31:52
to them is here's a lot of things you can ask anyone at
31:56
this conference. This is questions that you can
31:59
ask is to check if you understood it or to get more
32:02
information or to challenge their assumptions.
32:04
Because if we can get even just a few people that are newcomers
32:08
to dare to be in a situation where they here some someone
32:12
talked about Nhis, we have a question for I'm for them.
32:16
They can say, well, how do you know that's NHI and not just a
32:21
so-called human, that entity that we haven't believed, you
32:25
know, in steps of separation or something like that.
32:29
So. That's the kind of questions now
32:31
you start to get philosophical and now you're an identity
32:34
person. Not just a job, it's a career.
32:36
Always philosophical. So when you do this, and we're
32:40
talking about your intro to identity at Identiverse, which
32:42
we'll be at in a couple. Weeks just point that out.
32:45
That would be with Lance. Lance Piedman.
32:48
Lance is great. I've been doing that together,
32:50
so it's. My presentation, is there a
32:53
specific question that you get repeatedly asked?
32:57
Like is there something that's like, hey, the first time, you
33:00
know, identity newcomers, like they all seem to like ask a
33:02
similar question or same questions, Or do you find that
33:05
they're asking different questions over the years?
33:09
I think it's very much different questions because, and I think
33:13
this is because the typical questions are already answered
33:17
by someone and that's someone tension learner all from the AI
33:21
at the moment. So there's something I often do
33:24
when I give this kind of presentation is like to ask
33:28
different AIS what would their take on it be and just to write
33:32
to. I didn't for why where I would
33:34
be divergent or different on that.
33:37
So it's the type of questions that newcomers have, But if
33:44
there's some atom to that, it's just what they've seen on the
33:47
Internet that doesn't really make sense.
33:50
So they've heard something and then they need to ask, well,
33:54
what is it really? And we don't hear those
33:58
questions that often. I mean, we don't even know often
34:00
enough. It's just that we as an
34:02
industry, we're used to saying a lot of different things, but it
34:05
doesn't really make sense for someone from the outside.
34:08
Yeah, especially if you're listening to a conversation that
34:10
has a bunch of acronyms and words like who the heck is Pam
34:13
and why is she so popular? Why do we need to use acronyms?
34:18
Do we save that much time? We had question brings you so
34:23
like you identity Bureau, something you do in the after
34:25
hours like we do with identity center during the day.
34:29
You do consulting in identity, right?
34:32
And I kind of feel like I know my answer, but how far ahead do
34:38
you feel conference talk is from what's happening in the real
34:43
world and the problems that your clients are trying to solve?
34:46
Is it a A2 year gap? A one year gap feels like it's
34:51
closing, but what do you think it is?
34:55
Well, it's an interesting question in the way that that
34:59
many of the conversations I hear, especially with vendors at
35:03
conferences seem to be things that we used to do my own, I
35:10
don't feel like conference hall is ahead of what we should do
35:15
that often. I feel that when we get the
35:18
chance to talk to a client early enough before they have an RFP,
35:22
before they try to sketch out what they really need, and I see
35:26
you nodding, so I think, yeah. We want to.
35:28
I want a soapbox about RFPs a couple weeks ago.
35:31
Well, if we get in early enough, we can have conversations that
35:34
are nothing like what I hear at these conferences typically.
35:39
I mean, I'm stretching it a bit, but I'm just saying that that
35:42
will be my answer to your question.
35:43
Is that the kind of it's conversations that we sometimes
35:46
have with clients that we when we only love or conversations
35:51
that I really wish that we could have more of at conferences
35:55
because we have a lot of assumptions.
35:58
We assume a lot of things at conferences that and we just do
36:04
old, old hands by the way. But to kind of point out those
36:07
assumptions doesn't make sense. But I think you have to start
36:09
with some level of assumption. And I think vendors do this as
36:12
well, right? They say, OK, you know, let's
36:15
let's assume you've got certain capabilities in place.
36:18
We assume you've got IGA and privilege access at Pam, right?
36:21
Ready to go? We understand those.
36:23
I don't want you in the same way.
36:24
I don't, I still don't see a lot of companies to have like a, an
36:26
actual working IGA platform. A lot of them went out and spent
36:31
a lot of money on, you know, a top tier IGA product and they
36:35
connected like 5 systems to it and then that was it.
36:39
They're really connected a lot, but if they are like a
36:42
multinational company, they may operate as independent
36:45
businesses. And when it comes to identity,
36:48
it's decentralized, so they have to make compromises.
36:54
I think they built most of these organizations built all of that
36:58
architecture without having specified the definition of what
37:02
that identity meant because they assumed that was something that
37:06
everyone knows. Can you say IGA platform?
37:08
As if the vendor knew exactly what they needed, but they
37:13
didn't do the job by actually finding out what are the
37:15
outcomes that we need to happen. And then it gets to be
37:19
problematic to get funding for the next year because the IGA
37:22
program can't really show the value that there's a lot of.
37:27
I would think a majority of all the IGA projects are running
37:33
without having defined outcomes that actually make sense to the
37:38
board. I feel like use identity experts
37:43
and I hate to use that word to describe myself right we?
37:46
Work more with it than. With this conferences, right and
37:50
we talk about decentralized identity, I feel like that's a
37:55
ways off and in terms of like, you know, we've been talking
37:59
about it for years. Still, he traces this stuff.
38:05
A gentic identity kind of hit the scene maybe last year.
38:08
Maybe it was being talked about at conferences 2 years ago, but
38:11
not so much last year was big. Sure it's going to be everywhere
38:15
this year. It feels like clients are
38:17
starting to run into these issues where we need solutions.
38:21
Like this is where I'm feeling it is right now.
38:25
But I also talked to a lot of clients who need answers for
38:29
privileged access management for IGA and I'm like feel like I
38:34
don't want to sound wrong here. I don't want to talk about that
38:37
anymore. But you can't do really.
38:41
You can't really truly manage non human identities, workloads,
38:45
whatever you want to call them without having some level of
38:47
automation. But do you want to go to a a
38:50
conference session and talk about like your HR feed, it's
38:53
like? No, you know what, if that's if
38:56
that's what it takes to get people to understand how
38:58
important it is. Yeah.
38:59
Like, yeah, you still got to drill into people because people
39:02
are still showing up to Espen's new to identity, right?
39:05
They are learning this stuff. Yeah.
39:07
You and I've been doing this for 20 years.
39:08
You've been doing it for what, 100 years?
39:10
I feel like you've got a Picture of Dorian Gray somewhere because
39:13
you'd never look older than you have the previous year.
39:16
But like, we've been in this space for such a long time that
39:20
it is difficult sometimes for us to take a step back and say, oh,
39:24
yeah, here's a person or here's an organization that is they're
39:27
literally still taking faxes for onboarding.
39:30
OK. Are they ready for IVIP and
39:33
agentic identity? No.
39:34
Like we've got to get them caught up at least to 2010 and
39:39
then let's move them up to 2020 and then now let's get to 2026
39:42
for Agentic. So it's a foundation.
39:45
The foundationists are not stable.
39:46
Yeah, Yep. And this, I mean an interesting
39:50
thing you're saying you wouldn't, you would probably
39:52
wouldn't go and attend a session to talk about the HR data in IM.
39:57
That's actually one of the sessions I I'm really thinking
39:59
about. I want to make a session about
40:02
the HR and I am kind of. Coupling a superhero duo that
40:09
never was because we could have done so much more, but we never
40:13
get the right amount of data, the right types of data from HR
40:16
or they don't care about the data that we care about.
40:19
There's a miss notch, there's a gap there that's always been
40:22
there. And it feels like we as an
40:23
industry, we're trying to just, OK, that was boring.
40:27
We never got that done. Let's move over to look at AI
40:30
because that might solve some things, but you know,
40:33
foundations again. So I think I'm hoping the whole
40:36
thing we can try to move is switch that I've been around so
40:39
people will actually go to a session that says, OK, here's
40:42
what we really need to do with the HR department or maybe take
40:47
charge of ourselves to be able to move on, you know?
40:53
I want to clarify a little bit. So like Jeff and I worked
40:55
together on clients and we'd look at slide decks that we've
40:59
done in the past. I'm like, not this slide again.
41:02
We've used this slide for the last 10 clients.
41:05
And he's like, yeah, but it's still fundamentally correct.
41:09
And it still hits all the basics of like you're running a
41:12
program, but I get bored of it, right?
41:15
I'm like I just. Can't look at this thing
41:17
relevant because I think a lot of people would think the same,
41:21
hey, are we, are we over this yet?
41:24
Yeah. And then they would try to look
41:25
at some of what's new, what's happening.
41:28
But we still need to do that from an educational perspective.
41:32
So I'm just thinking about how do we do that?
41:34
Everybody's at different points in their career.
41:37
That's right. And the organization, right?
41:38
So some people are just starting out, some people are super
41:41
advanced and they've got IGA and Pam and they are truly ready for
41:45
like, OK, what is next? And so it's, you know, as an
41:48
industry, we can't just say, OK, let's focus on the top 1% and
41:51
hope that the rest of the people catch up with him.
41:54
Like, no, we need to focus on really everyone that's behind
41:57
and get them caught up so that they can take advantage of the
42:00
newer things. Of something, this is kind of a
42:02
side note, but I just, I watched the the New Karate Kid with my
42:07
kids here last week. I haven't seen it before.
42:09
Have you seen it? Jaden Smith.
42:12
No, I have not. No, Ralph Macchio is forever my
42:16
Karate Kid. The point isn't that the point
42:18
is the Japanese ways of approaching crafts in general is
42:25
this 12 year cycle of you learn the basics, then you have, you
42:30
know, elevate and elevate for it's typically 12 years.
42:33
So brewing tea, decorating plants, I mean, cutting off
42:39
torsos with swords. I mean, that's, that's the
42:41
thing, OK. The point is in the end, in the
42:44
next the last two years, we always have to go back to the
42:48
basics. The first thing is to learn
42:51
because now you understand enough to understand what you
42:53
should have done. And then you really have to
42:55
really, you spend so much time on the basics again.
42:59
And I think this is what we're talking about here, that we
43:03
we're not disciplined enough as an industry to go back and see,
43:06
OK, let's see how we can help people make that better.
43:11
This is what I'm looking for. Yeah, even better word than
43:13
baseball is fundamentalist. Yeah.
43:17
It's your league's base. Major League Baseball player on
43:20
balls every day, Yeah. I knew you'd bring it back to
43:22
baseball. We can end the show now, yeah.
43:26
Well, that's a probably a good spot to end the show.
43:29
I feel like I look around and I see, you know, this thing that
43:31
has been created and it's such a good and it's such a good thing.
43:35
I, I see people talking, you know, we're conversing.
43:38
There's going to be 1 at Identoverse as well.
43:40
Brew dog, I think. So I signed up.
43:42
I'll be at that one. I'm sure you know, Jimmy did as
43:44
well. And these are just fun events,
43:46
you know, I think if you are ever interested in setting up
43:48
another beer, you know, go to the identity dot beer website.
43:53
I'm not sure what's there to help the perspire or the the
43:55
perspective chapter creator going.
43:57
To be more and more right. So there's actually a join dot
44:02
identity dot beer site as well, which is a place where you can
44:05
register. If you want to be a new
44:08
organizer, then you have to reach out to me as well to let
44:12
me know where you want to air in on this.
44:15
So you can get it on the list and have it be promoted and
44:17
stuff like that. And if you're starting one
44:18
right, send it my way or Jim's way.
44:20
I'm happy to like get the word out there.
44:22
I'm going to try and hit the well Chicago and I'm not sure if
44:24
we're able to hit I'm. Not the Boston one you're
44:26
talking about. That I don't know, but you know,
44:28
I'm always looking for a reason to travel and if there's a
44:31
reason to go, like, hey, I'll go and hit the identity beer while
44:34
I'm in town, like even better. You'll have more and more
44:36
reasons to travel to an empty beer in the years to.
44:39
Come, I'm just saying I'd like to go to Australia.
44:41
I've never been. So if anybody out there is
44:43
trying to like, set up an Australia alienated in her beer,
44:46
I think Jim and I could probably be convinced to come out and
44:48
like help open it. Which?
44:50
Was willing to visit in June. New New Zealand cast.
44:52
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'll go anywhere at least once.
44:55
Yeah, I am. Send it for your.
44:57
OK. All right.
44:57
So Aspen's hooking us up. New Zealand.
44:59
Look at that on our calendars. Aspen, thank you so much for
45:03
joining us. Originally this was going to be
45:04
like a 5 minute, like sit down, and then I think it was turned
45:06
into like 20 minutes or whatever maybe.
45:08
So the sun is getting down, right?
45:11
It's getting a little bit darker.
45:13
The wind is picking up off the river.
45:15
Cool the Berlin. People are starting to, you
45:16
know, take off. The conference officially starts
45:18
tomorrow, so we'll check that out.
45:20
You and I are gonna be recording some episodes throughout the
45:22
next couple days, and I guess we'll release those over the
45:24
next several weeks as we roll into our next conference, which
45:28
is Identiverse. But yeah, I really enjoy being
45:30
out here and. This is the headache for the
45:32
shout out for this event a couple of weeks back.
45:36
Oh yeah, for the unlimited episode.
45:37
Do you think it helped? I think it helped a bit.
45:40
Well, I met, I met grateful, a new person, Johan.
45:42
So from Sweden. He came up and said hello.
45:45
You know, a couple other people did.
45:46
I think it's awesome. We're always happy to meet
45:48
folks. And unfortunately I didn't bring
45:49
any stickers with me. But, you know, we'll have them
45:52
with us. Some of the pussies.
45:53
Yeah, we. Got some of my other dealer
45:55
stickers. OK, there you go.
45:56
You. You have so many listeners that
45:58
whenever you mention this, it does definitely help.
46:00
So I think we're on the same mission.
46:02
So thanks for. We appreciate it.
46:04
Glad to help. All right, we'll leave it there.
46:07
Yeah, that's pretty much it. So we'll see everyone and talk
46:10
with everyone in the next one. You've been listening to
46:14
Identity at the Center. We hope you've enjoyed the show.
46:19
Make sure to like, rate and review, and we'll be back soon.
46:23
But in the meantime, hit the website at
46:25
identity@thecenter.com. See you next time on Identity at
46:32
the Center.