Latest / Daniel and Kelly’s Extraordinary Universe / The Science of "For All Mankind"

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The Science of "For All Mankind" · Daniel and Kelly’s Extraordinary Universe

0:08
Speaker 1: Daniel, Are you excited about going to space? You know,
0:11
Speaker 1: I think that there are plenty of people who are
0:14
Speaker 1: more excited about taking that journey and I am. So
0:16
Speaker 1: you're gonna let them go first, and then you're going
0:18
Speaker 1: I'm gonna wait until they build comfortable suburbs on the
0:21
Speaker 1: Moon before I go there. So you're gonna buy a
0:23
Speaker 1: vacation home on the moon. You know, house prices in
0:25
Speaker 1: southern California are getting pretty steep. I have no idea
0:28
Speaker 1: where my kids are going to move. What did they
0:30
Speaker 1: move to the Moon? Would you go visit them? I
0:32
Speaker 1: might wait until they have grandkids. That's cold, man, not
0:35
Speaker 1: as cold as the far side of the Moon. I
0:52
Speaker 1: am poor handmade cartoonist and the creator of pH D comics. Hi.
0:56
Speaker 1: I'm Daniel. I'm a particle physicist and a professor at
0:58
Speaker 1: UC Irvine, and I love living in southern California. I
1:02
Speaker 1: do too. It's the best. But it would also be
1:05
Speaker 1: pretty sunny on the Moon. Right the moon gets a
1:07
Speaker 1: lot of sun. The moon is either too hot or
1:10
Speaker 1: too cold. It's kind of like Chicago. I see, you're
1:12
Speaker 1: like the Goldie Bears of astronauts. You like it just right. Yeah, exactly.
1:17
Speaker 1: There's that one spot on the rim where it just
1:19
Speaker 1: stays the right temperature. But it's some pretty thin real
1:23
Speaker 1: estate on the moon. Now, if your grand kids are
1:25
Speaker 1: born in the moon, Daniel, would that technically make them aliens?
1:29
Speaker 1: Extraterrestrials for sure? I don't know about aliens teas right,
1:34
Speaker 1: that's the same thing as an alien. So maybe I
1:36
Speaker 1: would finally get to meet aliens. Yeah, there you go,
1:40
Speaker 1: but only if you go there, all right, I'll commit
1:43
Speaker 1: to going. If my kids have their own kids on
1:46
Speaker 1: the moon, I'm in What if they were born on
1:48
Speaker 1: the moon and their moon Well, I'll just bring some
1:51
Speaker 1: moon pies. I'm sure we'll get along. Welcome to our podcast,
1:54
Speaker 1: Daniel and Jorge Explain the Universe, a production of My
1:57
Speaker 1: Heart Radio, where we share are over the Moon, an
2:00
Speaker 1: enthusiasm for understanding the universe, for digging in deep to
2:04
Speaker 1: all of those tough questions about how everything works, to
2:08
Speaker 1: wondering about what's out there deep in space that might
2:11
Speaker 1: be holding answers to the next generation of questions that
2:14
Speaker 1: scientists are asking. We don't shy away from asking any
2:18
Speaker 1: of those questions and trying to explain all of the
2:20
Speaker 1: answers to you. Yeah, because it is a pretty big
2:23
Speaker 1: universe with a lot of space for us to explore
2:26
Speaker 1: and go visit and maybe even live out there among
2:29
Speaker 1: the stars as we continue our journey of humanity, of
2:32
Speaker 1: exploration and learning about how the universe works. Do you
2:35
Speaker 1: feel like colonization of space is inevitable? I don't know
2:38
Speaker 1: if inevitable, but it definitely sounds interesting and fun and
2:41
Speaker 1: cool and dangerous for the first people who do it.
2:44
Speaker 1: It's going to be one of those things that starts
2:46
Speaker 1: out really dangerous and take some brave souls to lay
2:49
Speaker 1: the groundwork. But after a while people will be like
2:51
Speaker 1: falling asleep on their commuter shuttles to the moon. Yeah, definitely.
2:54
Speaker 1: Or the elevator. Can we build an elevator to the Moon?
2:57
Speaker 1: I think we have a lot of nanotechnology puzzles between
2:59
Speaker 1: us in a space elevator to build that t well
3:02
Speaker 1: that's tall enough that it won't snap, because when the
3:05
Speaker 1: space elevator crashes to the surface, you've got a bad day. Yeah.
3:09
Speaker 1: I think that's the plot of the New Foundation TV series.
3:12
Speaker 1: And speaking of TV series, it's interesting to think about
3:15
Speaker 1: what science fiction and TV writers can come up with
3:18
Speaker 1: because it does give us ideas about how we can
3:21
Speaker 1: go and explore space and what would happen if we do.
3:24
Speaker 1: Because it's not just academics and physicists who are wondering
3:27
Speaker 1: how the world works and coming up with ideas for
3:30
Speaker 1: how we might explore it, what we might find. Their
3:33
Speaker 1: folks like you, out there thinking about the universe, and
3:36
Speaker 1: also people out there writing stories, people developing alternative universes
3:41
Speaker 1: in which we do explore space or go further or
3:43
Speaker 1: discover aliens or discover we are the aliens. On the podcast,
3:47
Speaker 1: we are big fans of science fiction, of course, and
3:50
Speaker 1: so we love talking about the science of some of
3:53
Speaker 1: these alternate universes and hearing about the process of creating them.
3:57
Speaker 1: Make it sound like maybe a TV shows and science
4:00
Speaker 1: chain is are kind of simulations of the universe, like
4:03
Speaker 1: where you can run experiments. Yeah, they're sort of thought
4:05
Speaker 1: experiments written large, right, thought experiments turned into TV shows. Yeah,
4:10
Speaker 1: So to the on the podcast will be tackling the
4:17
Speaker 1: science fiction universe for all mankind. Now, Daniel, this is
4:22
Speaker 1: a TV show on Apple TV, I think right, Yeah,
4:25
Speaker 1: it's on Apple TV. They just finished their third season
4:28
Speaker 1: and they're in the process of making season four. It's
4:30
Speaker 1: a really fun show for those of us who are
4:32
Speaker 1: enthusiastic about exploration of space, not just by robots but
4:36
Speaker 1: by people. But wait, I thought you're not excited about
4:38
Speaker 1: exploring space or is just excited for other people to
4:41
Speaker 1: explore space. Thing. I'm excited for people to explore space.
4:45
Speaker 1: I don't want to be on those trips myself, but
4:47
Speaker 1: then you won't get to experience the best part of it.
4:51
Speaker 1: It's like you're you're going to be living vicariously for
4:53
Speaker 1: the rest of your life. That's okay. I enjoy reading
4:55
Speaker 1: science fiction and I also enjoy reading science fact. Both
4:59
Speaker 1: of them are are fun for me, and I think
5:01
Speaker 1: other people have a better temperament for being test astronauts. Yeah.
5:05
Speaker 1: So this is kind of part of our series of
5:06
Speaker 1: episodes where we talk about the television series or films
5:11
Speaker 1: that have to do with science fiction, and we even
5:13
Speaker 1: get to talk to some of the writers behind some
5:15
Speaker 1: of these pieces of work. Yeah, and on today's episodes,
5:17
Speaker 1: you'll hear my interview with one of the writers for
5:20
Speaker 1: For All Man Kinds, Sabrina Almeida, who was a really
5:24
Speaker 1: interesting life story about how she got to be a
5:26
Speaker 1: science fiction author. Yeah, We'll get to that interview later
5:29
Speaker 1: in the show, but I guess first let's talk about
5:31
Speaker 1: the show itself. This is, as we said on Apple TV,
5:34
Speaker 1: and it's by the creator of Battlestar Galactica, right, Ronald Moore. Yeah,
5:39
Speaker 1: another really fun show that I enjoyed. Also co created
5:42
Speaker 1: by Ben Nadivy and Matt Wolport. This show for all
5:45
Speaker 1: Mankind is really exciting because it explores like an alternative
5:48
Speaker 1: history and imagines the universe very similar hours. But what
5:52
Speaker 1: if one important event was different, but such an important
5:55
Speaker 1: event that it changed to the course of history completely
5:59
Speaker 1: in a really fascinating eating away. Yeah. There, that's a
6:01
Speaker 1: pretty interesting idea that I think I've seen in several shows. Right,
6:04
Speaker 1: He's a there a show out there where like the
6:05
Speaker 1: Nazis win the Second World War. Yeah, that's the Philip K.
6:08
Speaker 1: Dick show called The Man in the High Castle. That's
6:11
Speaker 1: really fun. Not a whole lot of science fiction in it,
6:13
Speaker 1: but it's definitely an interesting alt history, like what would
6:15
Speaker 1: our world be like if a few battles had gone differently? Now,
6:19
Speaker 1: Ronald Moore, he's the creator of this show, and he's
6:22
Speaker 1: known for Battles for Galactica, but also he used to
6:24
Speaker 1: write on Star Trek, right, Oh is that right. I
6:25
Speaker 1: don't know his history. Yeah, I think he used to
6:28
Speaker 1: work maybe even with Gene Roddenberry. I forget. Maybe on
6:31
Speaker 1: the Next Generation episode. He's an old hatted sci fi TV.
6:35
Speaker 1: That is what I'm saying. Well, this show is really
6:38
Speaker 1: fun because the central event that pivots history in the
6:42
Speaker 1: show is the space race. We all know that in
6:44
Speaker 1: our universe, Americans landed on the moon first. Neil Armstrong
6:49
Speaker 1: was the first human to step on the moon. But
6:50
Speaker 1: in this alternative universe of for all mankind, it was
6:54
Speaker 1: the Soviet Union that landed on the moon first. Interesting,
6:58
Speaker 1: that's right. This is back in the sixties, right, the
7:01
Speaker 1: big space race. Everyone was trying to get to the
7:03
Speaker 1: Moon first, and the US did it first. I guess
7:07
Speaker 1: in reality, how far back or how far behind were
7:11
Speaker 1: there Russians, because I know they put you know, a
7:13
Speaker 1: man on the moon the dog like right on the
7:16
Speaker 1: moon spot Nick. They seem to be ahead for a while,
7:19
Speaker 1: but then the US kind of blew past them with
7:21
Speaker 1: the Apollo program. Yeah, that's exactly right. The U s
7:24
Speaker 1: s are really started off the space race very dramatically.
7:27
Speaker 1: Sput Nick and the first astronaut orbiting the Earth, and
7:31
Speaker 1: that really inspired the US to pour a huge amount
7:34
Speaker 1: of money and energy into the space race, culminating with
7:37
Speaker 1: them landing on the Moon first. And that lasted a
7:40
Speaker 1: little while and ended up in the Shuttle program. But
7:42
Speaker 1: the US are sort of faded in the space race,
7:46
Speaker 1: and as a response, in our universe, at least the
7:48
Speaker 1: US did as well, and now we don't spend nearly
7:50
Speaker 1: as much time or energy on space as we did
7:54
Speaker 1: back in the sixties when we had like a vibrant rival.
7:57
Speaker 1: So one of the key conceits of this show is
7:59
Speaker 1: that the US basically never takes their foot off the pedal.
8:02
Speaker 1: They just keep pouring time and energy and money into
8:05
Speaker 1: the space race, and so it flourishes for much longer
8:09
Speaker 1: than it did in our universe. M So in this history,
8:12
Speaker 1: the USS are landed on the Moon first, so they
8:15
Speaker 1: beat the US, and what kind of repercussions does that
8:18
Speaker 1: have on the history and politics of the US. So
8:21
Speaker 1: it's a lot of panic in the upper echelons of
8:23
Speaker 1: the politics of the United States. And in just the
8:26
Speaker 1: same way that like sput Nick and your Garrion inspired
8:30
Speaker 1: the US to pour a lot of time and energy
8:32
Speaker 1: and money into it. The Russians landing on the moon
8:34
Speaker 1: first meant that the Americans accelerated their program. They put
8:38
Speaker 1: even more time and energy and money into it. And
8:41
Speaker 1: then by the time the Americans get to the Moon,
8:43
Speaker 1: the Russians are already like building a moon base, and
8:45
Speaker 1: so it just sort of never slows down. They keep
8:48
Speaker 1: sort of like hopping over each other making these advancements. Wow,
8:52
Speaker 1: so there are moon bases on the show. Yeah, their
8:55
Speaker 1: moon bases, and in the recent season they even go
8:58
Speaker 1: to Mars. It's exciting. Well, we get to later seasons later.
9:02
Speaker 1: But there's also kind of a fundamental twist about the show,
9:06
Speaker 1: including sort of a twist on its title. Yeah they
9:08
Speaker 1: call it for all Mankind. But there's also a very
9:11
Speaker 1: important twist in politics which is inspired by the Russians
9:15
Speaker 1: not just putting the first person on the Moon, but
9:17
Speaker 1: then landing a woman on the moon. And in the show,
9:21
Speaker 1: female astronauts at NASA are not taken very seriously. It's
9:24
Speaker 1: all dominated by men. But when the us SR puts
9:26
Speaker 1: a woman on the moon, that inspires the equal rights
9:29
Speaker 1: movement in the United States, and so in the show,
9:32
Speaker 1: for example, the equal Rights Amendment, which in our universe
9:35
Speaker 1: didn't pass, does pass in the show, And so you
9:38
Speaker 1: see a lot of women advancing to very high levels
9:41
Speaker 1: of government and of NASA and playing important roles and
9:44
Speaker 1: being astronauts, again inspired by the achievements of our adversary,
9:48
Speaker 1: sort of like making the point that progress is sometimes
9:51
Speaker 1: best achieved in competition. M interesting. So the Russians there
9:55
Speaker 1: were the first to put a woman on the moon,
9:56
Speaker 1: and that inspired the US also, um, like, what's the
10:00
Speaker 1: pressure there, I guess, because if you can get both
10:03
Speaker 1: sexes on the moon, then you can have a colony.
10:06
Speaker 1: There is that the idea? Because that wouldn't make the
10:08
Speaker 1: US are worried. In the show, it's sort of just
10:10
Speaker 1: embarrassed the US. It's spotlight of the fact that the
10:12
Speaker 1: US was not taking their female astronauts seriously. And also
10:16
Speaker 1: I think inspired activists in the US to push for
10:20
Speaker 1: gender equality. When you see that something is possible, you
10:22
Speaker 1: have role models, you have something to shoot for, is
10:25
Speaker 1: something to point to. I think it makes your activism
10:28
Speaker 1: more powerful, right, because I think that maybe the main character,
10:32
Speaker 1: the central protagonist of the show is a woman, right,
10:34
Speaker 1: a woman astronaut. All convice I know nothing of the show.
10:37
Speaker 1: I haven't seen it, so I'm just going from what
10:40
Speaker 1: I've seen of trailers and billboards. It usually features a
10:44
Speaker 1: woman in a space suit. Yeah, there is certainly an
10:46
Speaker 1: astronaut who plays an important role, and there's another woman
10:49
Speaker 1: who becomes the administrator of NASA, and then eventually they
10:53
Speaker 1: have a woman president on the show things that we
10:55
Speaker 1: have not yet achieved in our own universe. Yeah, it's
10:59
Speaker 1: pretty sad. And the show sort of takes place across
11:02
Speaker 1: multiple decades, right, Like, it doesn't just start off in
11:05
Speaker 1: the sixties with the space rate. It actually kind of
11:08
Speaker 1: moves a decade with each season. That's exactly right. So
11:11
Speaker 1: they're showing like the ripple effects downstream of all these
11:15
Speaker 1: changes of history, and it's fascinating because they're having to
11:18
Speaker 1: imagine another universe with all the downstream effects of all
11:21
Speaker 1: of this research, some of which like boosts computer technology,
11:25
Speaker 1: but maybe they haven't made other discoveries that we have made.
11:28
Speaker 1: So it's a really fun just like window into an
11:30
Speaker 1: alternative view of what our lives it might be like, now,
11:34
Speaker 1: do they take this butterfly ripple effect to the extreme,
11:37
Speaker 1: like do their clothes change or do people in the
11:40
Speaker 1: eighties alternate universe still dressed like they do in the eighties.
11:44
Speaker 1: People in the nineties alternate universe still dressed like people
11:47
Speaker 1: in our nineties universe. But do they still have hammer pants?
11:51
Speaker 1: Nothing can stop mc hammer. I mean, he's just a
11:54
Speaker 1: force in the multiverse, so there's nothing you can do.
11:57
Speaker 1: They do take it seriously that they don't focus as
11:59
Speaker 1: much on fast and they think about like technology, you know,
12:02
Speaker 1: consumer technology. For example, they have like electric cars in
12:05
Speaker 1: their universe much earlier than we do. They have people
12:08
Speaker 1: communicating on video screens, but they don't have like small
12:12
Speaker 1: devices as fast as we do. So it's interesting because
12:16
Speaker 1: in some areas they are more advanced. In other areas
12:18
Speaker 1: they are less advanced. It's kind of like, I guess
12:21
Speaker 1: the Star Wars universe where they have warp drives, but
12:24
Speaker 1: they have like terrible computer graphics under computer interface. Minimalist
12:29
Speaker 1: computer graphics. You don't need any more than that, man,
12:32
Speaker 1: just like the old computer games. We're just as good
12:35
Speaker 1: as today's computer games. You don't need fancy graphics, that's right.
12:38
Speaker 1: You don't need millions of pixels. You should be like
12:40
Speaker 1: five to have fun. Right, Maybe you want to aim
12:42
Speaker 1: the desk on. All you need is that one color screen,
12:45
Speaker 1: you know, glowing green now, because I guess you know.
12:48
Speaker 1: The idea is that in our real history, the space
12:52
Speaker 1: rays really kind of boosted science and technology in the
12:55
Speaker 1: US and around the world, where if you put more
12:58
Speaker 1: emphasis on the space race, who knows how that could
13:00
Speaker 1: have affected the technology we have today. Yeah, anytime you
13:03
Speaker 1: invest in basic research, you see the downstream effects technologically
13:07
Speaker 1: and economically. A lot of the advancements we have in
13:10
Speaker 1: computer technology and miniaturization were motivated by a desire to
13:13
Speaker 1: go to space, and also of course weapons research to
13:16
Speaker 1: shrink stuff and put it on warheads. So anytime you're
13:19
Speaker 1: pouring money into basic research and these kind of new technologies,
13:22
Speaker 1: you're gonna discover stuff and that's going to lead to
13:24
Speaker 1: new technologies and that's going to change the way everybody lives. Yeah.
13:28
Speaker 1: Like for example of Velcro I hear really got to
13:30
Speaker 1: boost from the space program. Like you know, you maybe
13:33
Speaker 1: wouldn't have all the Velker we have today if it
13:36
Speaker 1: wasn't for the Apollo program, right, because they needed a
13:38
Speaker 1: way to stick things to the wall in zero gravity.
13:42
Speaker 1: Also astronaut ice cream, right, we wouldn't have that if
13:44
Speaker 1: we didn't have astronauts important culinary advancements. Yeah, yeah, for sure.
13:49
Speaker 1: So season one takes place in the sixties or seventies.
13:52
Speaker 1: Season one takes place in the seventies, just after the
13:55
Speaker 1: Russians have landed on the Moon, and then it's a
13:58
Speaker 1: jump in the end, and these in twos in the eighties.
14:01
Speaker 1: Season three is in the ninety nineties, and we've heard
14:05
Speaker 1: recently this season four is going to be in the
14:07
Speaker 1: two Thousand's interesting. I wonder if they'll still have you know,
14:10
Speaker 1: historical events like September eleven. Maybe. Yeah, it's really fun.
14:14
Speaker 1: They do use characters from our history. You know, Reagan
14:18
Speaker 1: and Clinton are there, though Clinton loses the ninety two
14:21
Speaker 1: election to a Republican woman, for example, And so you
14:25
Speaker 1: get these fun little nuggets of familiar history that have
14:28
Speaker 1: been changed in interesting ways. Well, there's a lot of
14:31
Speaker 1: science and I guess imaginary science here to unpact about
14:34
Speaker 1: this show, to maybe stimulate some interesting discussions about space
14:38
Speaker 1: and space tourism and space technology. So let's get into that.
14:43
Speaker 1: But first let's take a quick break. All right, we're
14:58
Speaker 1: talking about the science fiction Universe for All man Kind,
15:02
Speaker 1: which is a television show and Apple TV, Daniel, do
15:05
Speaker 1: you subscribe to Apple TV? Are they paying you to
15:08
Speaker 1: dors the show? They're paying me in apples? Yes, No,
15:12
Speaker 1: I'm a subscriber to Apple TV. I like a lot
15:15
Speaker 1: of the stuff on there. I like that show Severance.
15:17
Speaker 1: Have you seen that one Severance? Yes? Absolutely, I love
15:19
Speaker 1: that show. Great speculative fiction, really high concept and very
15:22
Speaker 1: well delivered. Also, what's the what's the show about the
15:24
Speaker 1: video game company Mythic Questic Quest. That's a pretty good one,
15:31
Speaker 1: that one I think is mocking video game companies, but
15:35
Speaker 1: it does have a One of the characters is a
15:37
Speaker 1: science fiction writer. Though you might be interested in that,
15:40
Speaker 1: they make so much fun of him that is not fair.
15:43
Speaker 1: He's one of the main path as characters. There we
15:46
Speaker 1: are talking about the show for All Mankind, which is
15:49
Speaker 1: science fiction by the creator of Battlestar Galactica. And that
15:51
Speaker 1: was another fun show, right, That was another fun show,
15:54
Speaker 1: really cool clever ideas. I like shows that have an
15:57
Speaker 1: interesting new concept, take you to some new world and
16:00
Speaker 1: really explore how it works. One of the things I
16:03
Speaker 1: really liked about For All Mankind is that it really
16:06
Speaker 1: does show you the scientific challenges of this doesn't just
16:09
Speaker 1: like Dot dot dot their way to the Moon and
16:12
Speaker 1: YadA YadA YadA their way to Mars. It really explores
16:14
Speaker 1: like what would it take? What would be hard about it?
16:16
Speaker 1: Are you saying they have a lot of these discussions
16:19
Speaker 1: on screen, Like on the show they're talking about stand
16:21
Speaker 1: in front of a blackboard or white board and working
16:24
Speaker 1: out equations. They're not doing math on screen as much
16:27
Speaker 1: as the whole structure of the show is about the
16:30
Speaker 1: struggle against nature right to get to the Moon. It's
16:33
Speaker 1: a huge endeavor. It's like climbing them out Everest. When
16:36
Speaker 1: you do that, you have to plan, you need your resources,
16:38
Speaker 1: you need to overcome obstacles, and so the whole show
16:41
Speaker 1: is about how to overcome the obstacles to get to
16:43
Speaker 1: the Moon, and to build a base there and to
16:45
Speaker 1: run it and to staff it and what happens when
16:47
Speaker 1: things go wrong. So's a lot of really interesting science
16:50
Speaker 1: puzzles there, and how to make money on the Moon,
16:52
Speaker 1: and lots of fun questions that they explore. M maybe
16:56
Speaker 1: they should call the show Against All Gravity instead, because
16:59
Speaker 1: I guess it is really hard to get to the
17:01
Speaker 1: moon right. First of all, it just takes an enormous
17:03
Speaker 1: amount of energy to leave the Earth, right, because you
17:06
Speaker 1: have to accelerate up to ridiculous speed. Right, You do
17:10
Speaker 1: need a lot of energy to leave the Earth, especially
17:13
Speaker 1: if you're going to carry a lot of stuff up there.
17:15
Speaker 1: You want to build a moon base, you want to
17:17
Speaker 1: transport supplies, It does take a lot of energy to
17:19
Speaker 1: just lift that stuff off the surface of the Earth.
17:22
Speaker 1: So when strategy they explore is to try to build
17:25
Speaker 1: a moon base and then try to find materials on
17:27
Speaker 1: the Moon that you can use to sustain your moon
17:30
Speaker 1: base so you don't need to be shipping everything from
17:32
Speaker 1: Earth all the time. Yeah, you said that. The big
17:35
Speaker 1: part of the plot as then trying to figure out
17:37
Speaker 1: how to build moon bases, because I guess having a
17:39
Speaker 1: moon base gives you a strategic position, you know, if
17:43
Speaker 1: you're the U S against the USSR, right, Like, just
17:47
Speaker 1: having a base there maybe gives you, who knows, some
17:49
Speaker 1: some sort of strategic advantage. I'm not an expert on
17:52
Speaker 1: space warfare strategy, but I think the idea is that
17:55
Speaker 1: having a base out there does give you a strategic
17:57
Speaker 1: advantage for later, for example, expl oring the Solar System.
18:01
Speaker 1: It's much easier to launch from the Moon than it
18:03
Speaker 1: is to launch from Earth. So if you can build
18:05
Speaker 1: industry on the Moon, for example, then you can fabricate
18:08
Speaker 1: satellites and ships and all sorts of stuff to explore
18:11
Speaker 1: the rest of the Solar System. And there is unfortunately
18:13
Speaker 1: a militarization of the Moon basis that happens, and even
18:16
Speaker 1: some shooting. Now. I guess it must be kind of
18:18
Speaker 1: a hard sell though, because like in our real history,
18:22
Speaker 1: we said, we kind of dropped the idea of going
18:24
Speaker 1: to the Moon and establishing a base there, right, because
18:27
Speaker 1: I guess it's just really hard. It is really hard
18:29
Speaker 1: and really expensive to live on the Moon. And I
18:32
Speaker 1: think that one of the points of the show is
18:34
Speaker 1: that the motivation in our universe to do that, a
18:37
Speaker 1: lot of it really did come from politics, come from
18:40
Speaker 1: like national pride, Like we're racing against the Russians. Does
18:43
Speaker 1: it really make scientific sense to build laboratories on the Moon?
18:47
Speaker 1: Do we really need those resources? I think in some
18:50
Speaker 1: sense it really was just motivated by a desire to
18:52
Speaker 1: beat the Russians more than like the actual scientific goals themselves.
18:57
Speaker 1: It's more about ego maybe than any practical desire. But
19:01
Speaker 1: as you said, it is important for exploration, and maybe
19:03
Speaker 1: now that people are thinking about like mining the asteroids fields,
19:07
Speaker 1: or you know, privatizing Mars. Then now it becomes maybe
19:11
Speaker 1: an advantage to have a base on the Moon. And
19:14
Speaker 1: if you do think about the deep future of humanity,
19:17
Speaker 1: it seems like almost inevitable that we will have to
19:19
Speaker 1: get off this planet if we don't want to be
19:22
Speaker 1: vulnerable to comments and asteroids that might obliterate us and
19:26
Speaker 1: destroy our civilization. And the Moon is sort of an
19:28
Speaker 1: easy stepping stone. It's pretty close, it's fairly hospitable compared
19:32
Speaker 1: to other places. There are some useful resources up there.
19:36
Speaker 1: You can still get stuff from Earth if you need.
19:38
Speaker 1: It's not nearly as far away, for example, as Mars
19:41
Speaker 1: or the asteroid belt, so it is a useful sort
19:43
Speaker 1: of like testing ground for figuring out how to build
19:46
Speaker 1: a colony. Yeah, it's got all the cheese you need.
19:49
Speaker 1: I mean, what else you need? No, I'm just kidding,
19:51
Speaker 1: but I guess maybe step us through. What are some
19:53
Speaker 1: of the hard things about building a base on the
19:56
Speaker 1: Moon and living there. One of the hardest things about
19:58
Speaker 1: building a base on the Moon is finding water. Like
20:01
Speaker 1: people need water, plants need water to grow. If you're
20:04
Speaker 1: not going to be constantly shipping water from Earth. Then
20:07
Speaker 1: you have to find a source of it on the Moon.
20:10
Speaker 1: And this plays a big role in the plot. They're
20:11
Speaker 1: like digging around on the Moon to try to find
20:14
Speaker 1: water deposits because there is water in the moon technically, right,
20:18
Speaker 1: there is water on the moon. Yeah, So the Moon
20:20
Speaker 1: is covered mostly by this stuff called regleth, which is
20:23
Speaker 1: like the shattered surface of the Moon blown up again
20:26
Speaker 1: and then falling down as dust and then shattered again.
20:29
Speaker 1: And it seems kind of dry if you're up there,
20:30
Speaker 1: just like kicking in there's dust. There is water in there,
20:34
Speaker 1: like there's some water mixed in with the regal lith.
20:37
Speaker 1: It is possible to filter the water out of the
20:40
Speaker 1: surface of the Moon and to get some but it
20:42
Speaker 1: takes a lot, Like it's pretty dry stuff. It's about
20:45
Speaker 1: as wet as like concrete. Well, so if you're thirsty
20:48
Speaker 1: on the Moon, you literally have to suck concrete. But
20:53
Speaker 1: is it in the form of ice or is it
20:55
Speaker 1: like what you see a drip or pool in any way,
20:57
Speaker 1: or is it just kind of like crystals, You know,
20:59
Speaker 1: it's crystals, and there's just not a whole lot of
21:01
Speaker 1: it on average. If you, for example, processed like six
21:05
Speaker 1: tons of surface material on the Moon, you'd get about
21:08
Speaker 1: three kilograms of water, which is about one human's daily
21:12
Speaker 1: dose of water. So that's six tons of material in
21:15
Speaker 1: order to get one person's supply of water for one day.
21:19
Speaker 1: There are some spots in the Moon that we think
21:21
Speaker 1: have more water deposits, like near the poles where it's
21:25
Speaker 1: always dark. Are these like tall mountains with crevasses in
21:28
Speaker 1: them where we think like comets may have smashed in
21:31
Speaker 1: and left their ice millions of years ago and it
21:34
Speaker 1: might still be there. So we think there might be
21:36
Speaker 1: like deposits of frozen water on the Moon that you
21:39
Speaker 1: can access that are a little richer than just filtering
21:42
Speaker 1: it out of this regal life. Do they think there's
21:45
Speaker 1: water under the surface, like I know on Mars they
21:47
Speaker 1: think there are maybe underground oceans. There's no evidence for
21:50
Speaker 1: vast underground deposits of water on the Moon. Is either
21:53
Speaker 1: filtering it either regal life, or finding it on the
21:55
Speaker 1: surface from these commetary deposits sort of near the poles
21:59
Speaker 1: where you have these places called craters of eternal darkness.
22:03
Speaker 1: All right, so then the Moon is b y O
22:05
Speaker 1: W bringing your own water obviously, But then there's other difficulties, right, Like,
22:09
Speaker 1: it's not easy to like grow plants there. Yeah, plants
22:12
Speaker 1: need nutrients from the soil, and the stuff up there
22:15
Speaker 1: is pretty tough. You know. They have grown plants on
22:19
Speaker 1: the Moon. The Chinese did it last year. They brought
22:22
Speaker 1: some seeds up and they grew them up there on
22:24
Speaker 1: the Moon, which is cool on the Moon. Wait, what
22:26
Speaker 1: did they like they have a base there or just
22:29
Speaker 1: on their little lander. They did it just on their
22:31
Speaker 1: little lander. They did some experiments. Yeah, it's pretty cool,
22:35
Speaker 1: and they grew technically, but they didn't like grow very well.
22:38
Speaker 1: They didn't exactly flourish. The plants that grow in the
22:41
Speaker 1: Moon sort of look like plants that are stressed out
22:44
Speaker 1: all the time. It's not like a happy place for
22:46
Speaker 1: plants to grow. So it would be pretty challenging to
22:48
Speaker 1: have like a farm on the Moon. Yeah. I guess
22:50
Speaker 1: I would be pretty stressed out if I was a
22:52
Speaker 1: tiny capsule in the middle of space there. But I
22:56
Speaker 1: guess Thankfully they didn't grow on the Moon. It grew
22:58
Speaker 1: on like a pod in a little spaceship. Is it
23:01
Speaker 1: possible to grow things like on the lunar soil? One
23:05
Speaker 1: challenge there is the moon has almost no carbon on
23:07
Speaker 1: its surface, and carbon is important. You and I need carbon,
23:11
Speaker 1: plants need carbon. All of life is based on carbon.
23:14
Speaker 1: We call it organic chemistry when there is carbon in
23:17
Speaker 1: the molecule, and the Moon has almost no carbon. Actually, interestingly,
23:20
Speaker 1: some of the richest sources of carbon on the Moon
23:23
Speaker 1: are with the Apollo astronauts left. You know, they're quote
23:26
Speaker 1: unquote waste. You mean they're poop, Yes, exactly, that's one
23:30
Speaker 1: of the biggest sources. Like how much how much do
23:33
Speaker 1: they poop? Just a normal amount, But there really just
23:35
Speaker 1: is not very much carbon on the Moon. I guess
23:38
Speaker 1: that's one way to get carbon up there. But I
23:41
Speaker 1: guess you also need air to grew plants, right, do
23:43
Speaker 1: you have to bring your own air as well? You
23:45
Speaker 1: need to bring your own error, And you need carbon,
23:47
Speaker 1: You need oxygen in order to make the atmosphere that
23:49
Speaker 1: plants need, You need nitrogen. So a lot of these
23:52
Speaker 1: things you just can't find on the Moon. So a
23:54
Speaker 1: moon base really pretty tough. On top of that, the
23:57
Speaker 1: Moon has really really terrible weather, Like not only is
24:01
Speaker 1: it really really hot in the sun and really really
24:04
Speaker 1: cold in the darkness, but also there's a huge amount
24:07
Speaker 1: of radiation, like you'll get cancer really quick on the
24:10
Speaker 1: Moon if you don't have a lot of shielding. Right,
24:13
Speaker 1: it's sort of like being out there in orbit where
24:15
Speaker 1: you're you don't have the atmosphere that we have here
24:17
Speaker 1: on Earth to absorb a lot of that radiation from space. Yeah,
24:21
Speaker 1: and the Moon has is really interesting geological history where
24:24
Speaker 1: we think that there was a lot of lava flow
24:26
Speaker 1: a while ago before it cooled, and so there are
24:29
Speaker 1: these huge lava tubes like where lava once flowed through
24:33
Speaker 1: and left these like just tunnels underground. They estimate to
24:37
Speaker 1: have billions of cubic meters of space and those are
24:41
Speaker 1: awesome because they're underground, so they're shielded. Right. If you're
24:44
Speaker 1: in one of these lava tubes, you're shielded from the
24:47
Speaker 1: radiation of space. You're saying that these could be potential
24:50
Speaker 1: places to live in m Yeah, So if you're imagining
24:54
Speaker 1: living on the Moon and having like the best view
24:55
Speaker 1: of Earth ever, it's more likely you live on the
24:58
Speaker 1: Moon underground in the darkness. Well, it might appeal to
25:02
Speaker 1: some people people who are already living in basement apartments.
25:07
Speaker 1: They're like, what exactly, it's not much of an upgrade
25:12
Speaker 1: or downgrade for them, but they talk about this a
25:14
Speaker 1: lot on the show, and they take it really seriously.
25:15
Speaker 1: The astronauts think about radiation. There's one important scene where
25:19
Speaker 1: there's a solar storm and the astronauts have to scramble
25:21
Speaker 1: to get into a lava tube to protect themselves as
25:24
Speaker 1: long ranging impacts on one of the astronauts. It's really
25:27
Speaker 1: quite interesting. But also in the show, they don't just
25:29
Speaker 1: have DASA and the USS are. They also have private
25:33
Speaker 1: industries up there playing a role in the space race.
25:36
Speaker 1: Interesting like the space x is or the Jeff Bezos
25:39
Speaker 1: of the world are getting on the action here on
25:41
Speaker 1: the Moon. They are exactly And there's a company in
25:44
Speaker 1: this show called Helios, which is probably a stand in for,
25:47
Speaker 1: you know, some combination of SpaceX and Blue Origin. And
25:50
Speaker 1: they have a really cool idea for these companies, which
25:53
Speaker 1: is that they're not just doing space tourism and not
25:56
Speaker 1: just launching satellites, etcetera, etcetera. They're actually getting into business
26:00
Speaker 1: on the Moon. And in the show they make billions
26:03
Speaker 1: and billions of dollars on fusion using fuel that they
26:07
Speaker 1: find on the Moon. Interesting, you mean, they're not just
26:10
Speaker 1: making money by opening a water stand or selling carpet.
26:14
Speaker 1: What do they fuse and what are they finding on
26:16
Speaker 1: the Moon and that they're fusing so on the Moon
26:19
Speaker 1: in real life, like in our universe, there's this isotope
26:22
Speaker 1: of helium called helium three. It's two protons and one neutron.
26:26
Speaker 1: Usually helium is like helium four two protons and two neutrons.
26:30
Speaker 1: But helium three, it's something which we have almost none
26:32
Speaker 1: of on Earth, and there is some of it on
26:34
Speaker 1: the Moon, and scientists like again in our universe, this
26:38
Speaker 1: is not science fiction. I think that is a really
26:41
Speaker 1: good source of fuel for fusion. M No, this is
26:44
Speaker 1: on the Moon like mixed in with the soil or
26:47
Speaker 1: is it floating as an atmosphere of the moon. Does
26:50
Speaker 1: the Moon have an atmosphere? The Moon has almost no atmosphere. Actually,
26:53
Speaker 1: it has an exosphere, has like a very loose collection
26:57
Speaker 1: of particles is sort of like float around it and
27:00
Speaker 1: get diffused. We have an episode about the atmosphere of
27:02
Speaker 1: the moon came out recently. But the helium three is
27:06
Speaker 1: deposited on the surface of the Moon. Actually, the helium
27:09
Speaker 1: three is like produced by the Sun. It's in the
27:11
Speaker 1: solar wind. It goes everywhere in the solar system. It
27:14
Speaker 1: just lands on the surface of the Moon because the
27:15
Speaker 1: Moon has no atmosphere to like deflect it or break
27:18
Speaker 1: it up, so sort of like deposited on the surface
27:21
Speaker 1: of the Moon by the Sun. And so it's in
27:23
Speaker 1: crystal form or what because they I normally think of
27:26
Speaker 1: helium is gas right now, this would be in crystal form,
27:29
Speaker 1: but it's really tiny amounts, so it might even just
27:31
Speaker 1: be like individual particles. We're talking super duper rare, like
27:36
Speaker 1: four to ten parts per billion on the surface. So
27:40
Speaker 1: if you pick up like a billion kilograms of surface,
27:43
Speaker 1: it'll have like four to ten ms of helium three.
27:47
Speaker 1: So on the show, there's maybe a private company that
27:50
Speaker 1: wants to go to the Moon and mind this helium
27:52
Speaker 1: three to make fusion. But why is this good for fusion?
27:55
Speaker 1: Why not just use the hydrogen on Earth? So you
27:57
Speaker 1: could just use hydrogen on Earth. Helium three is thought
28:00
Speaker 1: to be better for fusion because it doesn't release any
28:04
Speaker 1: neutrons like normally when you do fusion, you fuse hydrogen
28:08
Speaker 1: together particular isotopes tritium and deuterium that have extra neutrons
28:12
Speaker 1: because those are easier to fuse, and then you get energy.
28:15
Speaker 1: Ip you also get neutrons out, and those neutrons fly
28:17
Speaker 1: out and they will irradiate your reactor. So you run
28:20
Speaker 1: a fusion reactor for a few years, eventually it becomes
28:23
Speaker 1: radioactive itself, and so that's bad. So helium three doesn't
28:28
Speaker 1: release any extra neutrons because it has fewer neutrons. It
28:32
Speaker 1: just releases energy in terms of like photons, so it's safer.
28:36
Speaker 1: It's a nice alternative to hydrogen burning cool. So the
28:41
Speaker 1: show is not just about engineering and math, it's all
28:43
Speaker 1: about business. Who is also above business though, I do
28:46
Speaker 1: have to say that helium three fusion is a cool idea,
28:50
Speaker 1: but I'm not really sure it's a great business idea.
28:53
Speaker 1: I mean, we haven't even figured out how to do
28:55
Speaker 1: hydrogen fusion, and helium fusion is harder and it's not
28:58
Speaker 1: like this a lot of it on the moon. So
29:01
Speaker 1: to make this business work, you have to figure out
29:03
Speaker 1: hydrogen fusion, then helium fusion, and also figure out a
29:07
Speaker 1: way to mind this very rare source of fuel on
29:09
Speaker 1: the surface of the Moon. So I guess you're saying
29:12
Speaker 1: it's kind of a stretch that there would be a
29:14
Speaker 1: company that thinks this is a good business idea. Nobody
29:16
Speaker 1: here on Earth is investing in it right now. For example,
29:19
Speaker 1: if it was such a great idea and there was
29:21
Speaker 1: billions of dollars, Elon Musk would be working on it.
29:24
Speaker 1: Or it could be a great opportunity. You could beat
29:26
Speaker 1: Elon Musk to it. That's right, listeners, send us your billions, No,
29:30
Speaker 1: please don't. All right, Well, another interesting business that you
29:33
Speaker 1: can have in space is space tourism, and so let's
29:36
Speaker 1: get into that, and also Daniel's interview with one of
29:38
Speaker 1: the writers of the show, Sabrina Almida. But first let's
29:42
Speaker 1: take another quick break. All right, we're talking about the
29:57
Speaker 1: science fiction Universes for All man Kind TV show, and
30:01
Speaker 1: you said their business is trying to get to the
30:03
Speaker 1: Moon to build bases there, and it's part of it
30:05
Speaker 1: also to build you know, theme parks and hotels there.
30:09
Speaker 1: They do actually build a hotel in space, a giant
30:13
Speaker 1: rotating wheel in space, a space hotel that opens up
30:17
Speaker 1: in the beginning of season three weight not on the Moon,
30:20
Speaker 1: just in space, not on the Moon. Yeah, in space,
30:23
Speaker 1: like a giant rotating wheel and rotating so that you
30:26
Speaker 1: can get like gravity from the rotation, from the centrifugal effects. Right,
30:30
Speaker 1: because I guess that's cheaper to film because I imagine
30:33
Speaker 1: if you're base your whole episode on the Moon, you
30:35
Speaker 1: have to show people kind of floating around some right,
30:38
Speaker 1: because there's less gravity on the Moon. That's true. Season
30:41
Speaker 1: two has a lot of action on the Moon. People
30:43
Speaker 1: running on the surface, people chasing each other. There's a
30:46
Speaker 1: whole lot of Moon related action in season two. It's
30:49
Speaker 1: a lot of fun. And they float and they sort
30:51
Speaker 1: of float. You know when you run on the Moon,
30:52
Speaker 1: you don't exactly float. You also don't run normally, do
30:55
Speaker 1: this sort of like floaty leaps from step to step. Right,
30:59
Speaker 1: because I saw that movie with Brad Pitt at Astra
31:02
Speaker 1: and they have some action scenes on the moon surface
31:05
Speaker 1: that are pretty exigning in low gravity, but then they
31:07
Speaker 1: show you inside the moon base it's like regular gravity.
31:12
Speaker 1: That doesn't make sense. I don't know how they do that.
31:14
Speaker 1: I fell asleep halfway through. That movie was so boring.
31:16
Speaker 1: All right, So there's a tourism and there's also something
31:20
Speaker 1: interesting about the show is how they do technology, like
31:22
Speaker 1: spaceship technology. Yes. Season three is like a race to
31:25
Speaker 1: Mars and they try all sorts of different strategies, like
31:29
Speaker 1: one group is launching from the surface of the Moon.
31:32
Speaker 1: Another group is launching from Earth, and yet another one
31:36
Speaker 1: is building a ship in orbit and then taking it
31:39
Speaker 1: to Mars from there, not starting from the Moon or
31:42
Speaker 1: from Earth. And so it's sort of a fun way
31:44
Speaker 1: for them to tell us, to teach us about the
31:47
Speaker 1: challenges of each of these approaches. And I guess how
31:51
Speaker 1: realistic is it. I think it's pretty realistic. You know,
31:54
Speaker 1: they really think about the challenges in each case, how
31:56
Speaker 1: much more rocket fuel you need to launch from Earth,
31:59
Speaker 1: the benefits of launch from the Moon, but also the disadvantages. Right,
32:02
Speaker 1: the Moon has certain resources on it, silkn aluminium, magnesium,
32:06
Speaker 1: but it doesn't have, for example, what you need to
32:08
Speaker 1: manufacture rocket fuel, right, that's water. To make rocket fuel,
32:12
Speaker 1: you need to take H two O and separated and
32:14
Speaker 1: then use that hydrogen to make like methane or something
32:17
Speaker 1: like that. And the Moon just doesn't have carbon or
32:19
Speaker 1: hydrogen in vast amounts that you need to make that fuel. Wait, wait, wait,
32:24
Speaker 1: what to make rocket fuel? You make it out of water.
32:27
Speaker 1: There's lots of different ways to synthesize fuel. One good
32:30
Speaker 1: way is to start from water, you know. And when
32:32
Speaker 1: they actually do get to Mars, that's what they start doing.
32:34
Speaker 1: And they find a water deposit, and then they take
32:37
Speaker 1: the water and they split it into H two and
32:40
Speaker 1: O two O two for breathing of course, and the
32:43
Speaker 1: hydrogen they can then combine with carbon to make like methane,
32:47
Speaker 1: which is a good rocket fuel, so you don't have
32:49
Speaker 1: to ship it all from Earth. Interesting, I aside, rocket
32:52
Speaker 1: fuel was made from fossil fuels, but we can make
32:55
Speaker 1: it out of nothing. When don't we use rocket fuel
32:57
Speaker 1: in our cars? Then I think it's pretty expensive stuff.
32:59
Speaker 1: But yeah, you could synthesize all of these compounds. Is
33:02
Speaker 1: just cheaper to dig it up from underground where it's
33:05
Speaker 1: been synthesizing itself for millions of years, right, Right, But
33:09
Speaker 1: we're going to run out of fossil fuels at some point.
33:11
Speaker 1: I guess maybe it's not cost efficient to make rocket
33:14
Speaker 1: fuel out of water, right, Like maybe you have to
33:15
Speaker 1: put in more energy then you get out of it.
33:18
Speaker 1: But you can still make some to use for rockets. Yeah,
33:21
Speaker 1: you need another source of power, probably solar power or something,
33:24
Speaker 1: in order to break the water into H two and
33:26
Speaker 1: O two. Is more about making the fuel, which is
33:28
Speaker 1: like a compact energy battery. It's like a chemical battery,
33:31
Speaker 1: basically storing energy in this form so that you can
33:35
Speaker 1: use it to launch. We do have some propulsion technology
33:38
Speaker 1: like ion drives, which can just be electric powered, but
33:41
Speaker 1: they don't typically have the thrust to launch you from
33:43
Speaker 1: a surface. They can gently push you in space, but
33:47
Speaker 1: they can't typically launch you from the gravity well of
33:50
Speaker 1: a planet. And so that's how they plan to go
33:51
Speaker 1: to Mars using nuclear power, and so they have a
33:54
Speaker 1: few different approaches. But yeah, they have nuclear powered spaceships
33:57
Speaker 1: here which have like ion drives. They take the ener
34:00
Speaker 1: degenerated by the nuclear power plant and they turn that
34:02
Speaker 1: into ions which they shoot out the back of the ship.
34:05
Speaker 1: We have a whole episode about navigating around the Solar
34:07
Speaker 1: System and how all these drives work, if you want
34:09
Speaker 1: to dig into that a little bit. But it's really
34:11
Speaker 1: fun to watch them all racing two Mars and the
34:13
Speaker 1: choices they have to make, like you take an orbit
34:16
Speaker 1: around Mars first before you try to land, or you
34:18
Speaker 1: just try to land first. It's really interesting and very exciting.
34:22
Speaker 1: Do they make it or is it a Is that
34:23
Speaker 1: a spoiler? That's a big spoiler? Man? All right, Well,
34:26
Speaker 1: you had a chance to talk to one of the
34:28
Speaker 1: writers of the show, Sabrina Almida. Has she been with
34:31
Speaker 1: the show from the beginning. She hasn't. They brought her
34:34
Speaker 1: on after season two, so she's been writing in this
34:36
Speaker 1: most recent season. She's part of the writer's room, but
34:39
Speaker 1: she also has her name on one of the specific episodes.
34:42
Speaker 1: And when I talked to her, they were in the
34:43
Speaker 1: middle of working on season four. And she's interesting because
34:47
Speaker 1: she has a background in aerospace engineering. She's an actually
34:50
Speaker 1: like almost austronaut. Yeah, she has her credentials from M
34:54
Speaker 1: I T. And then she crossed over and decided she
34:57
Speaker 1: wanted to be a creative type. So that must be
34:59
Speaker 1: a familiar story to you. Started as an engineer and
35:01
Speaker 1: ended up as a creative type. She took a detour
35:04
Speaker 1: into making commercials for banks along the way. You'll hear
35:07
Speaker 1: her whole story and ask her about it in the interview.
35:09
Speaker 1: Maybe she can aspire to one day host her own podcast.
35:12
Speaker 1: I mean, that must be the pinnacle of any creative's career.
35:15
Speaker 1: All right, Well, here is Daniels interview with For All
35:18
Speaker 1: Mankind writer Sabrina Almida. Okay, so then it's my great
35:24
Speaker 1: pleasure to welcome to the program Sabrina Almida. Thank you
35:27
Speaker 1: very much for joining us and talking to us about
35:29
Speaker 1: your exciting work on for All Mankind. That's why pleasure
35:33
Speaker 1: to be here. Thanks for showing the interests and inviting me.
35:36
Speaker 1: So first, let's get to know you a little bit.
35:38
Speaker 1: Tell us a little bit about your background, how you
35:40
Speaker 1: got into science fiction writing and getting to work on
35:43
Speaker 1: this exciting television project. I always wrote a lot on
35:46
Speaker 1: the side. I always thought I'd be following the path
35:49
Speaker 1: of math and science. I came to the US from
35:52
Speaker 1: Brazil and I didn't know in the English, so the
35:54
Speaker 1: only area that I could continue in school and keep
35:57
Speaker 1: up it was math. So I was huge like math doork,
36:02
Speaker 1: and then I became the science doork and I go
36:04
Speaker 1: to the physics as fun events in high school for fun.
36:07
Speaker 1: I went to my tea to pursue aerospace engineering, did
36:11
Speaker 1: a few years of studying in it, and during that
36:15
Speaker 1: time I got to do a lot of cool things.
36:17
Speaker 1: I got to help with some research on satellite anomaly data.
36:22
Speaker 1: I got to work summers at JPL do internships and
36:27
Speaker 1: uh that progressed into designing command sequences for the Cassini spacecraft,
36:33
Speaker 1: and I got a hand in changing some of the
36:36
Speaker 1: flight rules. But all this time I was also taking
36:39
Speaker 1: classes classes like French film classics and Hong Kong cinema
36:45
Speaker 1: and suffice such a say, by the time by by
36:49
Speaker 1: the time I graduated, not with an engineering degree, I
36:53
Speaker 1: applied to film school and got to see and that's
36:56
Speaker 1: where I home down that the love was really in
36:59
Speaker 1: the writing portion. And uh. From there, I started a
37:05
Speaker 1: family unintentionally with my on again, off again boyfriend. And
37:09
Speaker 1: upon graduating, I, you know, I try to stay in
37:13
Speaker 1: the industry, but I was just helping maybe mixed people's films,
37:18
Speaker 1: doing second camera and credited on reality projects on weekends.
37:23
Speaker 1: And that became a gig of uh, doing corporate videos
37:28
Speaker 1: for banks, which isn't the reason I went to film school,
37:31
Speaker 1: but that was, you know, a much steadier gig. And
37:34
Speaker 1: it took I did that. I was just doing that
37:36
Speaker 1: for years and years, and it took my brother getting
37:39
Speaker 1: diagnosed with brain cancer or terminal prognosis, and that's when
37:43
Speaker 1: I realized, oh my god, life is so short, I'm
37:46
Speaker 1: wasting mine. And then I finally started writing every day.
37:49
Speaker 1: And it took took some years for me to get
37:52
Speaker 1: wrapped and break into the industry. Wow. Well, congratulations, that's
37:56
Speaker 1: quite a story. I love hearing when people's hobbies become
37:59
Speaker 1: their susitions, become their life's work, and then they get
38:02
Speaker 1: to actually do it for their day job. That's so inspirational.
38:04
Speaker 1: So for all of our science fiction writer guests, we
38:06
Speaker 1: ask them three questions to help us orient where they
38:09
Speaker 1: are in the sort of science fiction universe. So here's
38:11
Speaker 1: a question about Star Trek philosophy. Do you think that
38:14
Speaker 1: the transporters in Star Trek kill you and clone you
38:19
Speaker 1: or actually transport your atoms somewhere else? Oh wow, that's
38:23
Speaker 1: such a great question. I think I wouldn't use the
38:26
Speaker 1: word kill, but I don't think they're physically moving your atom.
38:31
Speaker 1: So yes, I think you're being reformulated. When you want
38:34
Speaker 1: to talk about consciousness or so or what happens as
38:39
Speaker 1: the matters being use for the things in one end
38:42
Speaker 1: and reformulated on the other. I don't know that i'd
38:45
Speaker 1: say you're killed, but I think you're reformulated. Okay, So
38:48
Speaker 1: would you be willing to step into a transporter be
38:51
Speaker 1: torn apart and three D printed on the other side,
38:53
Speaker 1: if there's enough data, if enough people before me did it,
38:55
Speaker 1: if the ray of lack of success is law enough
38:59
Speaker 1: yet and depends where I want to go, all right?
39:01
Speaker 1: Second question is what technology that you see in science
39:04
Speaker 1: fiction would you most like to see become reality. I
39:07
Speaker 1: think anything that lets us if we could travel faster
39:11
Speaker 1: than light. I think because part of me is inclined
39:16
Speaker 1: to solve Earth found problems, but we don't need to
39:19
Speaker 1: do that. If we can travel faster than light, then
39:23
Speaker 1: I definitely think there are the worlds that we could
39:26
Speaker 1: live in a habitate if we not. If when you know,
39:30
Speaker 1: we finished just one off, whether it's us or just Sun,
39:33
Speaker 1: so then what is your personal answer to the Fermi paradox?
39:37
Speaker 1: If the universe and the galaxy are old and there
39:39
Speaker 1: are rocky planets everywhere, why have an aliens made themselves
39:43
Speaker 1: known so far? Well? I think they're They're a few possibilities.
39:47
Speaker 1: One is they have we just aren't able to receive
39:51
Speaker 1: the information, right, They've done it in a way that
39:55
Speaker 1: we don't perceive it, and they're like why aren't they answering?
39:58
Speaker 1: That's one version of it, And one is we're just
40:01
Speaker 1: not that interesting rights that It's like I don't know,
40:06
Speaker 1: like why haven't we tried to communicate with bacteria? Like
40:08
Speaker 1: we're just worth the time. And then another one is
40:12
Speaker 1: just simply how spread outs. I don't know, you could?
40:15
Speaker 1: You know? Basically we just haven't. Uh. If you think
40:19
Speaker 1: about the vastness of the investment, there's just nobody from
40:24
Speaker 1: near bode. I don't presume we're the most intelligent life form.
40:27
Speaker 1: I don't presume. I'm more likely to assume that where
40:32
Speaker 1: the Laura them. Alright, So then about for all mankind?
40:38
Speaker 1: I love the show because it puts us in this
40:39
Speaker 1: alternative reality where the space races again an important part
40:43
Speaker 1: of our national identity, and governments are spending boatloads of
40:46
Speaker 1: money to make breakthrough in space technology. So what's exciting
40:49
Speaker 1: to you about these themes in this world? Why is
40:51
Speaker 1: it fun to write in that universe? I really like
40:54
Speaker 1: the idea of coming together for something bigger than yourself.
40:58
Speaker 1: But it's also something epic, right, So there there's there's
41:01
Speaker 1: the glory of the achievement for the individual players involved.
41:06
Speaker 1: There's ego and striving, and these are all people on
41:09
Speaker 1: top of their game to be able to be involved
41:11
Speaker 1: in these endeavors. So there's the what the individual ego wants.
41:16
Speaker 1: But you can't make things of that magnitude happen unless
41:19
Speaker 1: you you collaborate. So you take all these A lot
41:23
Speaker 1: of these people are Taipei, are really competitive or really
41:27
Speaker 1: into the thing they're into, but then they have to
41:32
Speaker 1: compromise or work together to communally make something happen. And
41:36
Speaker 1: then I just think the steaks are huge, and I
41:38
Speaker 1: love when you put huge stories to steaks. So those
41:42
Speaker 1: are some of what I like, you know, And it's
41:44
Speaker 1: just it's just such a shame the amount of funding
41:49
Speaker 1: and the lack of priority of how review uh space exploration,
41:54
Speaker 1: it's a travesty. Well, I'm inspired by what you say
41:56
Speaker 1: about people coming together to solve a problem. But in
41:59
Speaker 1: the show, there's also a competitive aspect, right, there's national
42:03
Speaker 1: pride and there's national security, and here in our universe,
42:07
Speaker 1: science often appeals to national pride. Like in my field
42:10
Speaker 1: particle physics, we say we have to discover the Higgs
42:12
Speaker 1: Boson before the Europeans, though they certainly beat us to it.
42:15
Speaker 1: Sometimes though it leads to disasters like projects getting canceled
42:18
Speaker 1: halfway through. What do you think the role is for
42:21
Speaker 1: nationalism in science? Are the characters in the show just
42:24
Speaker 1: like exploiting that to get their science done? Or do
42:27
Speaker 1: you think it's sincere on their part, and how do
42:29
Speaker 1: you think we should handle that in our world. I
42:32
Speaker 1: am not a nationalist personally, I'm a humanist. So I
42:35
Speaker 1: think the way we do things in the name of
42:37
Speaker 1: nationalism and the way we treat borders, you know, a
42:41
Speaker 1: hundred a thousand years from now, it will be viewed
42:44
Speaker 1: a lot differently, much like a post slavery society. There's
42:48
Speaker 1: still slavery in the world, but in much minute amounts
42:50
Speaker 1: a post slavery society view slavery. I was like, oh
42:54
Speaker 1: my god, that's horrible. I can't believe they did that.
42:56
Speaker 1: I think hopefully in the like a few hundred years,
43:00
Speaker 1: nationalism will be viewed the same way. Maybe because I'm
43:02
Speaker 1: an immigrant, I'm not a very nationalist kind of person. However,
43:06
Speaker 1: I think our characters, for some of them, it's very
43:10
Speaker 1: it's very sincere, for example, for Ed Baldwin. But for
43:13
Speaker 1: other characters like Margot Madison, it is about the science.
43:17
Speaker 1: It's not about the science for the glory of the
43:20
Speaker 1: United States. And I think we hit upon that in
43:22
Speaker 1: some of the way that she's collaborating with Sergey, thinking
43:27
Speaker 1: while we're helping advanced science, you know she's not thanking.
43:30
Speaker 1: Oh let me be train my country. So it's it's
43:33
Speaker 1: really about what can I do for the science. And
43:36
Speaker 1: if a way to drum up funding is to point
43:38
Speaker 1: out the Riberry, great, but for her, I think it's
43:41
Speaker 1: science first. So speaking of science first, many of the
43:44
Speaker 1: plot lines revolve around scientific obstacles. You know, they have
43:47
Speaker 1: to solve some specific technical problem, and you guys aren't
43:51
Speaker 1: just like fuzzing over the details and you know, dot
43:53
Speaker 1: dot dot, they make it over there. So tell us
43:55
Speaker 1: a little bit about the writing process. Do you guys
43:57
Speaker 1: come up with story arcs and then figure out this
44:00
Speaker 1: science to make it work, or do you start with
44:02
Speaker 1: the science and the challenges presented by it and then
44:04
Speaker 1: think about how your characters will navigate it. What's the
44:07
Speaker 1: writing process like? So the first several weeks, it depends
44:11
Speaker 1: how many weeks, but each season is a little different.
44:14
Speaker 1: But we'll spend time in the beginning of the season
44:17
Speaker 1: during something we called blue skying, where no idea is
44:20
Speaker 1: the wrong idea, and we'll talk about possible arcs for
44:24
Speaker 1: the characters and directions we want to go. And during
44:29
Speaker 1: that time it's not about the science. However, if we
44:33
Speaker 1: hit like big areas we think we might wanna go into.
44:38
Speaker 1: We have a researcher, we have technical advisor, and we'll,
44:43
Speaker 1: you know, we'll just make sure that we're vaguely in
44:47
Speaker 1: a space that's okay, and then we'll figure out the
44:49
Speaker 1: details closer to breaking down that episode. If we think
44:53
Speaker 1: there's gonna be a landslide or Mars Clake. We just
44:58
Speaker 1: want to know if we can being that, you know,
45:01
Speaker 1: being that without figuring out the details until we get
45:04
Speaker 1: to the episode. So big moves we run by early,
45:09
Speaker 1: but then the details they happen more when we are
45:12
Speaker 1: into that specific episode. And you have a real scientific background,
45:16
Speaker 1: as we just heard about, so I imagine that in
45:18
Speaker 1: the writer's room you might be like pushing for the
45:20
Speaker 1: story to be as accurate as possible. Is there a
45:23
Speaker 1: whole spectrum of voices there where people are like, oh,
45:25
Speaker 1: don't worry so much about the science, and other people
45:28
Speaker 1: like gritting their teeth if the details aren't right, How
45:30
Speaker 1: do you guys resolve that kind of stuff? Everybody cares
45:33
Speaker 1: to some extent about the science, and we understand that
45:36
Speaker 1: that's what this is one of the things that makes
45:38
Speaker 1: us show special. The amount of worry that each particular
45:42
Speaker 1: writer has varies. You know, some people are like, whatever,
45:46
Speaker 1: I'm strouble figure it out, and other people like, I
45:49
Speaker 1: don't know if I can you know, I don't know
45:50
Speaker 1: if we can do that. So it definitely does vary,
45:55
Speaker 1: and you know, like, okay, how people talk to each
45:59
Speaker 1: other about it Occasionally, like somebody will draw something on
46:02
Speaker 1: a post it and put them from their zoom screen
46:05
Speaker 1: to try to like compate or explain something. But again,
46:10
Speaker 1: when it really becomes an issue, our show runners are
46:13
Speaker 1: not relying on the writers. We had two people that
46:17
Speaker 1: were very pivotal to us getting the science right and
46:22
Speaker 1: in the room every day. We had Erica Hatfa with us.
46:25
Speaker 1: She was our researcher and uh she's a former scientist
46:30
Speaker 1: with a PhD. And she would look up information at
46:33
Speaker 1: the moment live as we we were talking and pitching
46:37
Speaker 1: and working and also send us a great information at
46:41
Speaker 1: the end of every day and every few weeks every
46:45
Speaker 1: few months, we'd have um former astronaut Garett Riceman come
46:50
Speaker 1: in and either talk to us about the directions we
46:53
Speaker 1: were going the story or actually review every single episode
46:59
Speaker 1: and change get made also based on his expertise. Well
47:02
Speaker 1: I'm just glad to hear that science plays such a
47:04
Speaker 1: big role. You can definitely see it in the show.
47:07
Speaker 1: How the science like changes the path of the story,
47:09
Speaker 1: and it's often a story about conflict between people, but
47:12
Speaker 1: often it's a story about conflict between you know, people
47:14
Speaker 1: and nature. I also want to ask you about the
47:17
Speaker 1: sort of all history aspect of it from a gender
47:20
Speaker 1: point of view. There's a moment a show when the
47:22
Speaker 1: U s s are surprised everybody by putting a woman
47:24
Speaker 1: on the moon, which sort of like supercharges equal rights
47:28
Speaker 1: in the US. How does it feel to you to
47:30
Speaker 1: write about a world where women play a more prominent
47:33
Speaker 1: role in science and in politics. Do you see this
47:35
Speaker 1: as a way to shine a light on continuing gender
47:37
Speaker 1: issues in science and like in your industry here? Yeah, no,
47:41
Speaker 1: I think it's absolutely fantastic that we have female characters
47:46
Speaker 1: that are playing more than the love interests of another
47:50
Speaker 1: character and are doing more than just motivating male characters storylines.
47:56
Speaker 1: I joined in season three, so that's one of the
47:59
Speaker 1: main reasons I wanted to join. I was like, oh, wow, like,
48:02
Speaker 1: I love how the show treats women and it's a
48:06
Speaker 1: very grounded show. So as soon as we say, okay,
48:09
Speaker 1: the Ego Rights Amendment past, we're saying that means a
48:15
Speaker 1: lot of things are different. So it's not weird if
48:19
Speaker 1: we have so many women. It's realistic to have so
48:22
Speaker 1: many women in such prominent roles because how they Ego
48:26
Speaker 1: Rights Amendment pass probably, you know, it would have spend
48:29
Speaker 1: things up. So I think it's still grounded because we're
48:32
Speaker 1: it's based on a different history. I mean, women are
48:36
Speaker 1: in a bunch of prominent positions in science and politics,
48:39
Speaker 1: just at lower numbers than they are in our show.
48:41
Speaker 1: So one of my favorite episodes of the show is
48:43
Speaker 1: one that you specifically have your name on as the writer.
48:46
Speaker 1: I know there's a whole process there with the writer's room,
48:48
Speaker 1: but I wanted to hear more about writing this episode.
48:50
Speaker 1: It's episode three oh five, when they arrive on Mars.
48:53
Speaker 1: There's an attempt to land, but they can't make it
48:55
Speaker 1: because of bad visibility, and somebody else lands and they
48:58
Speaker 1: have this exciting scene about race to be the first
49:00
Speaker 1: person to step onto the soil of Mars. Can you
49:04
Speaker 1: tell us about what it was like to write that episode?
49:05
Speaker 1: But with the challenges for you as a writer balancing
49:08
Speaker 1: the science and the drama. One of the challenges was
49:12
Speaker 1: how do we make timing realistic. We were talking about
49:16
Speaker 1: you know, you're approaching Mars, and then you do a
49:19
Speaker 1: burn to get into an orbit around Mars, and then
49:21
Speaker 1: you do a de orbit burn, and then you do
49:23
Speaker 1: a landing burn, and just figuring out the timing of
49:29
Speaker 1: when you're making the decisions. You know, if you make
49:31
Speaker 1: the decision to go around once more and somebody doesn't,
49:34
Speaker 1: there's a big gap there until you come back around again.
49:37
Speaker 1: And we wanted to keep that excitement of not knowing
49:40
Speaker 1: who's going to make it so exactly when to pull
49:45
Speaker 1: the plug on the decision making, also when do you
49:50
Speaker 1: find out what and how? At one point we had
49:54
Speaker 1: talked about breaking a communication antenna. At one point we
49:58
Speaker 1: had parachutes, I know for the size of sojourn are
50:02
Speaker 1: one uh with real day technology wouldn't have peara shutes,
50:06
Speaker 1: but just to give us something dramatic that can go wrong.
50:10
Speaker 1: So there were those talks of like do we break something,
50:14
Speaker 1: do they have to change something mid landing? But there
50:17
Speaker 1: was enough tension just between who's gonna land first, and
50:20
Speaker 1: we didn't feel like we had to break something in
50:23
Speaker 1: the process of something does break after they land, but
50:26
Speaker 1: that we didn't have to break something in the process
50:28
Speaker 1: of the landing. Also, originally it was written as a
50:32
Speaker 1: vertical landing for um so Journ or one, but that
50:37
Speaker 1: would have presented some challenges for production for actually shooting it,
50:42
Speaker 1: so we changed the landing. But it was it was
50:45
Speaker 1: that feel like that, but it got changed very cool.
50:49
Speaker 1: So I also pulled some of our listeners for questions
50:51
Speaker 1: to ask you. Here's a couple from them. First question
50:54
Speaker 1: was do they have the whole four season story are
50:57
Speaker 1: plotted out or is this sort of organic that it
51:00
Speaker 1: develops from season to season. So much before I ever
51:03
Speaker 1: joined the show, there was a plan. There was a
51:06
Speaker 1: plan for more than the four seasons that have been announced.
51:11
Speaker 1: So you know, uh, when writers pitch and sell a show,
51:15
Speaker 1: they have a vision not just for the first season
51:18
Speaker 1: but for the entirety of the show. So there was
51:21
Speaker 1: definitely a vision for the whole show. In terms of
51:23
Speaker 1: how much we are adhering to that, it's changing as
51:28
Speaker 1: you actually hit a season. You still keep the north
51:31
Speaker 1: star of where you hope the show ends eventually someday,
51:35
Speaker 1: but how you're getting their changes as you're learning and
51:40
Speaker 1: discovering about your characters awesome. And then the last question
51:43
Speaker 1: from listeners was, folks wanted to understand better how it
51:47
Speaker 1: was possible for the Russians the Americans to not notice
51:52
Speaker 1: North Korea launching and landing on Mars. How do you
51:55
Speaker 1: guys figured that out from a story point of view.
51:58
Speaker 1: So our idea was that it was supposed to be
52:01
Speaker 1: an unman probe, a very large unman probe that crashed.
52:06
Speaker 1: So the surprise is that it's not that they had
52:09
Speaker 1: that launch. They knew something was launched for North Korea
52:12
Speaker 1: to Mars. The surprise is that, oh my god, this
52:16
Speaker 1: wasn't a man. So they saw it when I left Earth,
52:19
Speaker 1: they knew, you know, it was just one of the
52:22
Speaker 1: failed North Korean launches to Mars. Nobody thought it was man.
52:28
Speaker 1: North Korea didn't make a big deal of it because
52:30
Speaker 1: it wasn't successful. All right, excellent, Well, thanks very much.
52:33
Speaker 1: We're answering all of my questions, and the listeners can
52:36
Speaker 1: follow your work on this show. You have other projects
52:38
Speaker 1: that you'd like to tell us about that we might
52:40
Speaker 1: be able to check out your writing and other venues,
52:43
Speaker 1: novels or television or other shows. I got to work
52:46
Speaker 1: on the first season of Steal Team that's currently on
52:49
Speaker 1: Paramount Plus, that was originally on CBS, and I had
52:53
Speaker 1: the pleasure of working on the first room that got
52:56
Speaker 1: together for Ander on Disney Plus, as happens very often
53:01
Speaker 1: in TV. Later they brought in another crew and ultimately
53:05
Speaker 1: became Tony Gilroy's room, and I got to work on
53:10
Speaker 1: Section thirty one that so hasn't made it to air,
53:12
Speaker 1: which is a Star Trek show, and hopefully that will
53:14
Speaker 1: make it to air someday. But again, different crews have
53:18
Speaker 1: been brought in in the development process of that one,
53:21
Speaker 1: and now I have the pleasure of being on for
53:24
Speaker 1: all mankind. On the side, I'm working on a future
53:26
Speaker 1: right now early days. We'll see if when it makes
53:30
Speaker 1: it out to the world. And as I always I
53:33
Speaker 1: also developed parliaments, but again we'll see if when it
53:37
Speaker 1: makes it into the world. Well, congrats on all of
53:39
Speaker 1: your success, and we're inspired by the gambles that you've taken,
53:42
Speaker 1: and good luck with all those projects. All right. Pretty interesting.
53:45
Speaker 1: She seems to be really curious about this idea of
53:48
Speaker 1: space exploration. Yeah, you can hear in her voice she's
53:51
Speaker 1: enthusiastic about this alternative universe. I think a lot of
53:54
Speaker 1: us who saw the space race early on and the
53:56
Speaker 1: excitement of that are kind of disappointed and how that
53:59
Speaker 1: played out that we don't have more energy and more
54:02
Speaker 1: investment and more research into space technology. So it's fun
54:05
Speaker 1: to imagine that universe where the politics sort of forced
54:09
Speaker 1: it to happen, sort of made the country continue to
54:11
Speaker 1: invest in this way, and what was possible. You know,
54:14
Speaker 1: in that alternative universe, they're already on the surface of
54:16
Speaker 1: the Mars in the nineties. You just spoiled the show, Daniel.
54:20
Speaker 1: You weren't gonna get that, just did. I mean, they
54:25
Speaker 1: are chempting at least to land on Mars in the nineties.
54:28
Speaker 1: But maybe I wonder if the problem is that a
54:30
Speaker 1: lot of people think, like, hey, space expression sounds great,
54:33
Speaker 1: but I don't want to do it. That's certainly my scenario.
54:35
Speaker 1: But I don't think we're lacking for astronauts. There's a
54:37
Speaker 1: lot of people on that list who want to go
54:39
Speaker 1: out into space. I think the bigger challenges people were
54:42
Speaker 1: wondering about what our priorities should be. Should we spend
54:44
Speaker 1: money on space or should we try to solve problems
54:47
Speaker 1: down here on Earth? And one way to think about
54:50
Speaker 1: it is whether or not it really is a choice
54:52
Speaker 1: between those two things, whether or not it's possible to
54:54
Speaker 1: do both, right, Like, maybe you can cure cancer and
54:57
Speaker 1: just watch space exploration on TV on a show leg
55:00
Speaker 1: for All Mine, or maybe you can cure cancer in space.
55:06
Speaker 1: Right there you go, that's what I'm talking about. Maybe
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Speaker 1: we should host a podcast in space. Well, technically we
55:11
Speaker 1: are in space, Daniel. I don't know if you've heard,
55:13
Speaker 1: but the Earth is in space, so then I've gone
55:17
Speaker 1: to space already. You're saying we're all aliens. Yeah, well no,
55:20
Speaker 1: he's still on Earth, but so you're not an alien.
55:24
Speaker 1: But yeah, technically all humankind are astronauts. Were all curling
55:28
Speaker 1: through the galaxy and through the Cosmos and this little
55:31
Speaker 1: spaceship called I'm so proud of our bravery as we
55:34
Speaker 1: sit on our couches. Yeah, I'm not sure. It took
55:36
Speaker 1: a lot of bravery just to get out of the
55:39
Speaker 1: womb and walk around and look for snacks. Voluntary or not,
55:43
Speaker 1: we are astronauts. All right. We'll check out the show
55:46
Speaker 1: for All Mankind lay now streaming on Apple TV. Three
55:49
Speaker 1: seasons are out and they're working on season four. All right,
55:52
Speaker 1: check it out and dream of going to space or
55:55
Speaker 1: dream of other people going to space, whichever is easier.
55:58
Speaker 1: Thanks for joining us, you next time, Thanks for listening,
56:09
Speaker 1: and remember that Daniel and Jorge Explain the Universe is
56:12
Speaker 1: a production of I Heart Radio. For more podcast from
56:15
Speaker 1: my Heart Radio, visit the i heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,
56:19
Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. H