Latest / The Wellness Esquire Podcast: Happy, Healthy, Successful Lawyers / His Wife Has Cancer, He Has Depression, And He Just Launched a New Law Firm - with Randy Kramer

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His Wife Has Cancer, He Has Depression, And He Just Launched a New Law Firm - with Randy Kramer · The Wellness Esquire Podcast: Happy, Healthy, Successful Lawyers

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to the Wellness Esquire podcast.
• 0:01
  SPEAKER_00: I'm Ariella and I'm so glad you're here for what I think is a really important conversation with Randy Kramer.
• 0:07
  SPEAKER_00: Randy is an international trade and customs attorney based in Montreal.
• 0:11
  SPEAKER_00: He spent the first two decades of his career as a litigator before making the bold decision to go out on his own doing work he had never done before.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_00: I first connected with Randy after seeing his birthday post on LinkedIn, where he shared about things that I think we need to talk about a lot more in life in general and certainly in the legal industry.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_00: In this conversation, Randy and I, of course, talk about things like perfectionism and burnout.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_00: And we also talk about Randy's personal life, his wife's stage four colon cancer diagnosis, his depression, and his reality of managing his own mental health while supporting his wife and his family of five kids through a serious health diagnosis, all while building up a solo law practice.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_00: Most of us have something going on that others don't know about.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_00: We have current pains and challenges or ones from our past that may still live with us.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_00: We often feel like we're not supposed to say this stuff out loud.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_00: We're often worried about the potential impact on our careers.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_00: But what I've found is that when people that people want to hear these stories because it helps them feel less alone.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_00: And what I've also seen is that when we show up authentically and talk about the tough stuff that we thought might lead to career suicide, it can actually open up lots of doors we never expected.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_00: I'm incredibly grateful to Randy for sharing his story.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_00: I know you're gonna get a lot out of it.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much for listening and enjoy.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much for for doing this with me.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_00: I you know, when I saw your birthday post, I just thought, oh, we have to have a conversation.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_00: What are you feeling?
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_00: And um so we're gonna get into your more personal story of what you posted um about your own experience with depression and your wife's diagnosis and and what your family's been through.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_00: But before we get into that, um, I want to just start with maybe simpler things, uh more more um directly oriented around your career.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_00: Like, why did you go to law school in the first place?
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_02: I went to law school in the in the first place because I wanted to become a litigator, and I did for about 20 years.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_02: Uh and then I decided that I don't want to do that anymore.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_02: Um I was uh a litigator, civil litigator, personal injury litigator for well, not quite 20 years, but a little bit less than that.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and decided at some point in time, which corresponded relatively well with with us leaving Toronto in 2018, that I didn't want to be a litigator anymore.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_02: I certainly didn't want to be a personal injury litigator anymore, uh, and wanted to be more of a transactional international uh attorney.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_00: What made you realize it wasn't the right fit for you anymore?
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_00: Or was it ever the right fit for you?
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_02: When I was really in it, it felt like the right fit.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_02: I was so passionate about it.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, you know, I I uh was went all out for my clients.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_02: I was the type of guy who was there late all the time and uh would be the type of guy who would, as a plaintiff's personal injury lawyer, would resist uh, and that's what you want as a plaintiff's lawyer to resist um to try to get as as best of settlement as you can.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_02: So we'd go to trial, we'd we'd uh fail the mediation if the money wasn't good enough, and I was very good at holding out on that.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_02: But uh somehow at some point in time I decided I'd had enough of it.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_02: But actually, I went out of my own first doing that before deciding I've had enough of it.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_02: I kind of went out of my own knowing that I I didn't want to continue doing personal injury law, but that only became quite evident once I was out on my own doing personal injury laws.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_02: I I definitely don't want to do this anymore.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_00: Before we continue, I'm gonna suggest that you scooch over, I think, to yeah, there we go.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_00: So that's you're I think partially cut off.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, that's not good.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I can see his face.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, good.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, okay, I think that's good.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_00: Oh I'm just waiting for my my friend and and producer to uh say, why didn't you tell him to change where he was sitting?
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that was a good idea.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_00: It's generally not on my radar, and I'm trying to make it become something on my radar.
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so you you realized the litigation route, it wasn't a good fit for you.
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_00: Um had you done any work in the what you now do in the world of international law?
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_00: Did you had you explored that before?
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_00: Or what what made you go?
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_00: I think this will be a better route for me.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_02: I think we're having trouble with the connection.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_00: Uh-oh, I think you're frozen.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_02: We're having trouble with the connection, I believe.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I was just sending you a uh trying to figure out how to send you a message that you were frozen.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_02: Um you were also frozen.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_00: So I was okay.
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_00: I I huh.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_00: Do you know if it's on your end or my end?
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_02: Let me take a look at how I'm connected here.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_02: I'm connected to my best my best network.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_00: So Yeah, I'm I'm quite good on my end.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_00: I wonder what's happening.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, should we do a competition?
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_02: I'm at 34 Okay, oh you know what your speed is.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_00: Do you know how to the fast.com?
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_02: I used to know.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, fast.com, yes.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_00: And that way at least we can see do I need to move try to find somewhere better or um button uh it's in the seven hundreds.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, so it's probably me.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_02: I would think, but you never know.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_02: It just thinks it.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I'm in the seven hundreds, but I would seven ten was the final megabytes megabytes per second.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_00: Uh huh.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_00: That's so odd.
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_00: Well, then I think we're I'm inclined to think it's me then.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't know that I'm gonna be able to do anything about that.
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_00: So unfortunately I don't wanna keep having us um lose each other, so I think the best thing to do is to reschedule.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_00: Um Okay.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_00: I'm s I unless you want to keep trying to go and see see what happens.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_00: And if if you know maybe we well, I mean, right now as we're talking about how it's not working, as we can see.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_02: Right now it's working.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_02: That's right.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_02: I know.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_02: We can keep going, but if it if it if it keeps cutting out, then I guess we'll have to it's entirely up to you.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_00: I don't want to you to feel like, oh my god, that was such a a challenging hour.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um no.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_02: I'm okay with continuing.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_02: We'll see what happens.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_00: Great.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_00: Let's let's give it a whirl.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_00: We'll see what happens.
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so I think where we left off was I was asking, had you explore had you had you done any work in the international raw law realm before?
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_02: What led you go in that direction when you really I had I had done work in uh in that realm before, mostly international contracts, uh, but what I do now is is international trade and customs, uh, transportation, logistics, and maritime law, uh, which is different than that.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_02: So it's been it's been quite the challenge to make that that that jump, and especially doing it as a solo, at least for now.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_02: It's very difficult.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_02: Have had to rely heavily on mentors, other people, other lawyers, uh attending conferences, lots of work.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_02: It hasn't been easy.
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_02: I don't I don't take the easy route, that's for sure.
• 8:22
  unknown: Okay.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_00: Coming here.
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_02: No, coming here the go ahead.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_02: You go.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_00: I I want to dig in more to the the the way it's been challenging and how you've navigated that, because I have so many law students and lawyers at various stages coming to me and saying, Well, what if I choose something and then I don't like it?
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_00: What do I do then?
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_00: How do I end up like what happens if I'm trained in something and then I hate it?
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_00: And my answer has been, well, then you do something else, which you know is maybe comforting, but I don't know if it always is because it's like, well, but who how how do you proceed?
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_00: It seems it can seem so scary.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but you know, we can do hard, scary things.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_00: So what what has been what's it been like for you to do the hard, maybe scary thing?
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I'm I I can inherently, I guess, daring and take chances, whereas some others would not take these chances going out uh on my own after having been in law for close to 21 years now.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_02: Uh well, I went out on my own about a little over 10 years ago.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_02: That wasn't the problem.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_02: It's just it's going off in a different area completely.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_02: That I would not recommend that.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_02: I would recommend that somebody go work for another firm or work in-house to get the experience that they need to uh to thrive in that area or areas that they they want to practice in because doing it on your own is extremely, extremely challenging.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_00: Do you now somewhat regret having gone that route?
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_00: Or do you feel like, yeah, you've actually made it work pretty well and it's been really hard, but you're not sure a lot of other people would be good out for it?
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I I I I don't regret having left personal injury, uh, but um there there are days that that I say I I should have gone to work for a firm or I should have gone to work in-house uh before I put a shingle on it that that I'm I'm doing it on my own, put that way.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, that makes me want to talk a little bit about mistakes because I have to assume you've made some, because we all have.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_00: And I I have actually found since I launched my own firm that I've become much more confident um in acknowledging my own mistakes and just quickly and and confidently resolving them.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not sure exactly what that's all about, but I I I once it was all on me, I just felt like, oh, and now I can own my own process for saying, whoops, that didn't go well, and here I'm gonna fix it.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_00: Can you think of experiences where you've you've made a mistake either on more of the admin side and you realize, oh, I'm not gonna do that?
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_00: You know, the client maybe was happy, but I didn't like how I did that for myself, or client side mistakes where you realized, oh wow, I didn't know how to do that well enough, and I wish I had done you know, X, Y, Z to understand better, and and now I know.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_00: But you know, mistakes.
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_02: Most of the mistakes I think about are mistakes where I I I gave the client too much time, uh did things for free for a long time, and uh learned from that.
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_02: I think that what when I do something, I I make sure that that I'm doing it, I'm doing it right.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, I know it's sometimes very difficult to ensure that you're doing it 100% correctly, and and that contributes to perfectionism, which brings you down because if you're searching for 100%, you are inevitably brought down by by being a perfectionist.
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_02: I think I I I read a bit about you that uh you struggle with that of being a perfectionist, uh, if I'm not mistaken.
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_02: I I definitely struggle with that.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_02: And so uh I I've learned uh that that it may maybe maybe 98% or 97% uh is better than 100% because they have the two, three percent uh more to get to 100% is as absolutely so exhausting uh and and really not worth it for quality of life purposes.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_02: I I I don't I don't think.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_02: Uh but mistakes would be uh number one, not not working for a firm or in-house, uh and I think giving too much of myself to clients.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_02: Uh I become much better at at weeding out something that's not going to work out very quickly as opposed to in the past, uh, whereas you you you uh you give a lot of your time and then you you realize, hey, this isn't gonna work out, and clients taking advantage of me, client doesn't want to pay, things like that.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_00: How do you think about weeding out clients now?
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_00: I remember coming across um someone on a podcast talking about like she really pays attention to uh how can her firm best attract the right clients and repel the wrong clients.
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_00: And I just thought that was brilliant.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_00: How do you Yeah it is?
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_02: I I I think that's a that that's a great thing.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_02: And it's a hard thing to do.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_02: I think you have to pr you have to position yourself as as a premium uh law firm uh to help weed that out uh so that people know off the bat, not that necessarily you're expensive, but that that you you hold yourself in high regard and that and that you know it's not gonna be easy to to come and and and just get get free advice.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_02: You could tell it's coming like a mile away sometimes where where where where where where people want the free advice and and you just know it and and you you don't you don't know where the if like if it's almost nothing you're inclined to give it.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_02: But what if it's what if they rely on you and and form a relationship and you end up being wrong or you end up being right and they think that you've been their lawyer all the time, um that that's that's difficult.
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_02: So I like to set things out clear at the beginning with uh with uh the retainer agreement and all that.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_02: Whereas in the past I would be more loosey-goosey about it and um I can I guess be fortunate for for the client.
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_02: Now I realize that having a bad client is uh is much worse than having no client.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_02: Uh so I act accordingly.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_00: One thing I loved about your website where you talked about um, you know, your kind of what I view as your love for the international law space, that general space, is the recognition of just people and cultures and other differences.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_00: And I loved that personalization and the recognition of you're not just talking about, you know, how do you get items from one country over to the border to another country?
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_00: You're looking to understand the business and the legal sides of things, but also to understand like what goes into all of this stuff and then how to me I'm reading it as how do you best understand your clients and the cultures they may be coming from or interacting with, so that you can actually then get the results people are looking for.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_00: How how do you how do you think about that and navigate that?
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_02: Well, it's it's it's very important in terms of business deals to to understand the the way other people think and the way they do things.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_02: If you're going to uh other cultures and you do things that uh could uh they could possibly find offensive, you have to be uh really uh really careful about that.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_02: Um I think that dates back to my my days in in in personal injury where I had people from all sorts of different cultures, and you learn a lot about what they do.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_02: Sometimes you go visit them at home and see the way they live.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_02: And so uh just international kind of uh born in the US, went to school in Canada, uh never went to university in the in in the United States or college in the United States.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_02: Um I went I didn't I went there just as a uh a student and uh was gonna come back and almost got broke up with my future wife.
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_02: Uh basically like that's it, I'm leaving, I'll see you later.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_02: And uh I'm going back to New York, and then we ended up falling in love somehow.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_02: And uh kept me in kept me in in Canada for the long run.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_02: But I've always been uh attracted by international things, different things, and that's what uh that plus appreciation of of other people, other cultures really acquired during the the personal injury times um just made me want to go out and do that at a at a at a at a level that I felt was a higher level, which is at a business level, um knowing those things and appreciating those things.
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_02: People still appreciate when you know about their culture and you can say a few words in their language.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_02: Um even if you you you can't have a conversation, you can just show that you you're contributing and that you care.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_02: Makes it it makes the world a difference.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_02: And to get the people to trust you, it's it's important.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_00: Did that uh contribute to your interest in becoming fluent in French?
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_00: Was that just your own pure desire, or did it was it also, well, maybe this will help my clients?
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_02: Well, the French thing comes from when I when I realized that I wanted to stay in Montreal, it was only then that I realized that I had to learn French uh to really master French to be able to stay in Montreal, to be able to be a a lawyer in Montreal, because that's what I wanted to do initially.
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_02: Wanted to stay in the same place as my wife's family, because my wife is is particularly close to her family.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_02: Uh it's not that I'm not close with my family, I just think that my my my wife might have a more special bond with her family.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_02: Uh talks to them especially with her mother all the time, uh, really uh a huge part of her life.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_02: And so that's what I wanted to do initially when I made that decision.
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_02: I had already been here in Montreal for a number of years not learning French, trying or took a course, but it was like a complete joke.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_02: Like high school Spanish was for me.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_02: Uh it was a complete joke.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_02: There was no effort whatsoever that went into it.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_02: And uh I started to take it very seriously uh after a while because I realized I couldn't provide services uh in French, and that was a problem.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_02: Plus, I found myself at what we we have here called bar school, which uh is really intimidating because it's after after law school, and you go there for eight months and the and the books are all in French and the lectures are all in French, and I couldn't even have a conversation with anybody when when I first came to uh to bar school.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_02: It's like um thank goodness of the the the exams were both in English and French, although French was the official language and the ruling language, um, because I wouldn't have been able to have have uh gotten through it if it were not for for the fact that the exams were also in English.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_02: But at that time, I had a very my all my French was from reading books and had my legal French was better than my French to speak to somebody in a normal conversation.
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_02: Um couldn't go out and and and uh have a drink with somebody and talk to them that wasn't capable, but I could understand like legal passages in French, and it was the weirdest, weirdest thing.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_02: And my wife is is is not francophone, she's anglophone, um, she is from uh an anglophone Jewish part of Montreal, uh where I think they still speak like 80-something percent speaks English as their first language, and so uh she went to all she went to Jewish school at at the beginning and then continued on in uh university in English and never really helped me with the French.
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_02: Um so I had to get it from outside uh the house.
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_02: And now it as it turns out, it uh she ends up learning from me.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_02: She likes to say that I'm her teacher, which is the weirdest thing, you know.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_02: Hello, uh we introduce ourselves to people, and I'm from New York and I'm having the conversation in French that sounds good, and she's the one who's having the more broken conversation, and she's the one from Montreal.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_02: And she's her, and then they're like, What?
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_02: That's the weirdest thing, but that's the way it ended up.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_00: It's a good pairing.
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so we've mentioned your wife a couple of times.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_00: How is she?
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_00: And do you want to share what what your family's been going through?
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_02: Well, she's she's doing okay for the moment, which uh I I tend to look at things a little bit more pessimistically than than some others.
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_02: Uh she's doing okay for the moment, meaning that uh last scan was was was okay.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_02: Um and and she and we wanted to capitalize on that.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_02: To go away and have a a long family vacation while she was still doing well.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_02: Because the past couple of years we've missed out on the family holiday vacations because she was not doing well and she had to go to chemo, I think, two years in a row.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_02: And so we wanted to specifically make it our business.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_02: So we had our kids, the kids miss maybe seven days of school.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_02: They had one week off, but but they they missed a good seven days of school so that we can have that that 17-day vacation uh go on.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_02: So she's she's she's happy, she's doing so much to try to connect on social media.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_02: I admire her so much for she she makes songs for people, she writes poems, she's she's uh in all these cancer groups, she's um she's trying to to do what she can.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_02: She's trying to live as much as she possibly can.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_02: And uh I I really appreciate that.
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_02: I wish I was I had that attitude because I'm more of the of on the fearful side and tend to get depressed, and she's just out there out there living and creating more moments with with me and and our children to re to remember um and laughs and it's it's the the vacation was fabulous.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_02: It just highlighted all that.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, I think it's just one of the reasons you know where it's like I I was actually having some kidney stones, I still do.
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_02: Uh I was causing some pain.
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_02: Um it's under control on the medication, but just uh I th I feel mu uh better talking to you after the vacation than before because the vacation had been so long time in the making and really wanted to do that for the family and for for her.
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_00: And your wife has she has stage four stage four what kind of colon colon cancer.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_02: Right, that's limited to the lung at this point, thank goodness, uh, which is a better uh a better situation than than being uh poly, whatever uh they call it, um distributed.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_02: Um it's limited to the lung, and so she's had chemotherapy and she's had some radiation in the lung as well, but you know, you fear that at any moment it could it could become sp more widespread.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_02: So she's been lucky, it's been um it's been just concentrated in the lung.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_02: The colon cancer, it's not in the colon anymore.
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_02: Uh it's it's it's only in the lung.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_02: And so she's doing what she can, and uh she had some radiation and the scan looked pretty good, so we went away.
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_00: I wanted to have you on to talk about that because you also so just to backtrack a little, I think when I when I came across you, it was because of a post you had published on your birthday in in a nutshell, recognizing what you and your family have been going through, in particular with your wife's health and with your depression, um, which you know you've struggled to sometimes it sounds like you know, get out of bed and do the things that you need to do.
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_00: And then you have this wife who has a different mindset around living through this same tragedy.
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_00: And when I saw your pose it, I had, you know, my my initial instinct is, oh, we need to talk about this.
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_00: And then I had this other part of me that that sort of thought, well, what a strange thing to bring someone onto a podcast to talk about something so painful.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_00: But to me, that's also why we need to do it.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_00: Because as unique as these these tragedies are for us personally, so many of us go through something like this and then feel alone and don't know how to navigate it.
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_00: And um and to be frank, I this was probably the first episode that I have felt a little bit nervous to go into um recording because this is Yeah, because my dad died from colon cancer when I was 17.
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_00: So it's and I I didn't know yet that it was colon with your wife, but but so it's it's very personal to me.
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_00: And my goal is not to make it about me, but because of my own personal experience, I know how important it is to talk about it and to also just to have it out in the open so people know what's going on with their colleagues and their friends and their family, and also with us in our industry to just be able to talk about, hey, there's a lot of stuff going on at home.
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_00: I'm actually not okay.
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_00: That doesn't mean I can't do my job, and it doesn't mean I can't excel at my job, but it does mean that I might now look at life differently and I prioritize prioritize things differently, and my my focus on the way I want to live and work may shift.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_02: Um it's been tremendously di difficult in that regard, especially with launching a new focus.
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, she's been diagnosed now for I think two years and three months.
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and uh the jet that just coincided with me just getting out there and and uh uh kind of putting up my new shingle in these new areas, and it's been remarkably difficult because especially at the beginning, and even as recently as a these past few days, uh just having returned from California triggered a depression, which was unexpected.
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_02: Um and I I I I I did post about that on LinkedIn saying that I was that I was uh you know feeling depressed.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_02: I didn't I didn't talk about my my my wife's situation uh in particular on that, but just having uh getting these scan results and and seeing that that a nodule has been added or expanded or uh have through has thrown me through me into periods of weeks, months long depression.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_02: Um I'm I have to say I I didn't want to deal with anybody or I didn't want to do it and I was crying about it, and uh I have to I have to admit um my uh it's a point where we we had to get my children involved or my my older children to to try to to help with it because you know what can you say?
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_02: My wife is is my best friend and never would I have thought that this would happen to her, you know, her grandmother lived to be 99 and her mother is uh I think uh 787 um and and in good health as far as uh as as I know.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_02: And um I thought my wife would easily outlive me, you know.
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_02: It just uh never uh I always kind of took that for granted.
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_02: And then uh December of 2023, I think it was the first day of December, you know, she had been having some stomach problems and then went to the hospital and revealed it was a blockage in the intestine that had to be taken out immediately because it was colon cancer, and then they found some what they call spots on the lung, which is the spread of it to the lungs, where is where it's remained.
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_02: So it's been extremely difficult.
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_02: And and um my wife has been difficult on me.
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_02: She doesn't accept that that I'm depressed, and it it's been it's been extremely difficult, uh, especially even these these past few days coming back from like I know this there's a reason why I'm depressed.
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_02: That has something to do with the fact that I wanted to go to California uh and I enjoyed it there and saw the opportunity there and and uh how how nice it is and how everyone was so happy there in the family, and I come back here and deal with the bitter cold and all that stuff, and it's no coincidence.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_02: There's something going on there.
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_02: But this is the first time though that I that I got depressed in in not specifically in relation to my wife's illness since she since she was she was diagnosed, which I find to be interesting in itself.
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_02: Why am I getting depressed when she's doing the best she's done, but yet I'm I'm markedly depressed.
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_02: Um I can't I can't explain it uh other than other than the way I tried to explain it on LinkedIn, which was I I you know I did want to do this and it didn't it it didn't work out and you know and I I fought all the time for my kids to go to French school and for me to learn French and all that, and at the end of the day I'm saying to myself, was it really worth it?
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_02: But on the flip side, being close to my wife's parents and other immediate family has been priceless in these times of of of illness.
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_02: Because if we weren't around them, what would have what what would have happened and you know uh for my wife and and and children and and me not not to be around them, you know, it's there's a there's a there's a trade-off there.
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_00: You mentioned you know, getting your kids involved to help you with the depression, at least to a certain extent.
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_00: What are the tools that you're using and the you know, anything that you're doing to help yourself you know, all the time in this, you know, in the last two years in particular, and especially now is you know, you have the awareness that you're not doing well.
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_02: So well, I see a therapist that goes without saying, um, and uh uh you know therapist is is there really to try to help me continue to to work in a in a in a stable fashion without going through these depressions.
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_02: Um and so you know yesterday I had my first session back with her since I had I I I uh since I we we had left and I actually I actually caught our extend our our our vacation got extended for a couple of days because of bad weather and the east coast.
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_02: It really wasn't that bad weather, it's just it it enabled us to extend the vacation, essentially.
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_02: Uh so without charge, um you know it it's it the slice ended up leaving on time and everything was fine, but uh I I had called her on Monday and I I had just had a um uh a video conference with uh with with with somebody in in the business and you know that had set up and it went well and I was all confident it was it was I spoke to her on the phone Monday, not not yesterday, the week before.
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_02: I was so confident, but then I come back and I had to tell her that that I'd been basically not doing much for the last five days.
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_02: Uh I didn't want to touch LinkedIn.
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_02: I finally posted on LinkedIn.
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_02: I I didn't want to touch it, didn't want to post on it, didn't want to read it, didn't want to have anything to do with it.
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_02: Um and it was kind of like wow, what what a change in in one week that comes because I guess also let's face it, being away um in a different place doesn't make you think too much of your of your your wife's illness.
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_02: And then when you come back to that place, and the first thing you see is a is a piece of paper saying that the next scan is scheduled for April 10th, um which happens to be my oldest daughter's birthday, and it's in the same hospital because my old my oldest daughter was born in Montreal.
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, you know, it's like it it's it's not just that I'm away from California, it's being back in that that that that environment again where you've got the scan coming up again, and you're you're in the place where where all this stuff has happened.
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_02: Sometimes in life you just want to get away from places that have caused you pain.
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_00: How s go ahead.
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_02: No, I I mean I'm just thinking about you and losing your father to uh at when you were 17.
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_02: Um my middle daughter is 17, and I would say that she's the the most mature of uh of my children in general.
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_02: Uh I have older children and I have younger children, uh, but she's the one who who who's always trying to help me uh get over these these difficult points, and I'm wondering you know what it's like to lose a parent at the age of 17.
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_02: I lost my aunt to lung cancer um at the age of 17, actually, but it's different than losing a parent.
• 35:55
  SPEAKER_02: Um and and and the saddest thing, uh she had lung cancer, and so you know, we knew what was gonna happen with her, but a month before her death, her husband had a heart attack and passed away.
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_02: And at the funeral, it was just you know, you you hearing her, he she was she was crying about it, and you know, how could they take away my husband?
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_02: I knew a new for me, but my husband, um that happened, that happened all all when I was 17, but but but your mother, it's just they're so close to their mother.
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_02: Um on this vacation, it was just the three younger ones, so including the 17-year-old.
• 36:39
  SPEAKER_02: Uh the other two did not did not join us.
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_02: Um I can't I can't fathom it.
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_02: I have my parents still living in their 80s now.
• 36:49
  SPEAKER_02: Um you know, if something were to happen to them, I guess I'd be much more prepared, but not at that age.
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_02: So I feel for what you you've you've gone through and and my my kids, uh what they they could go through.
• 37:08
  SPEAKER_02: Uh my youngest one is 11.
• 37:11
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, he he he doesn't really we don't really talk about too much of this with him.
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_02: I kind of kind of too young, and uh I have a 14-year-old who who knows more about it, and um he writes songs and sings songs and fills everybody's life with joy and and that's so nice.
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_02: Um but yeah, it's extremely tough.
• 37:40
  SPEAKER_02: People people don't know, and then you gotta get a little bit of uh the the phenomenon of cancer ghosting a little bit with with with people uh that had been close to to to my wife, you know, people it's not necessarily that they they don't want to deal with it, it's just they don't know how, and you know, given the benefit of the doubt, they are people they they just don't know how to deal with tragedy or or things that are that could lead to tragedy, I guess.
• 38:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, well I'm glad you brought that up too, because that that was actually one of the one of the things that I wanted to dig into, which was I think so often people do want to help, whether it's friends or family or colleagues, but people are often so ill-equipped to do so.
• 38:25
  SPEAKER_00: And so they just disappear, do nothing, it seems like they've forgotten about it, and you are never gonna have the same life again.
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, somewhere in your mind, whether it's like closer to the back of your mind, if you're able to be super distracted, or somewhere much closer to the front, and you're in this world of how do people not know that my life is not okay?
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_00: And it's not okay, and they really will never you'll figure out a new normal, but things will never just be good again.
• 38:58
  SPEAKER_00: And yet everyone else is going around like you know, it's a normal day and everything's fine, and and it's really tough.
• 39:06
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I I guess they they they they have they they we don't know their stories either and what they've gone through.
• 39:14
  SPEAKER_02: Um everybody goes through things in a different way, and uh anytime I hear about somebody who's gone through situations like this, it's it it hits home harder now than than than it used to because I know that it's it's so complex, it's not just one thing that you know it's it's it it bothers them for one day, it just continues on, and and and sometimes I wonder whether whether I mean I hate to say this because it sounds so so so negative, but you know, if something were to happen and you had an immediate death, or would you choose an immediate death or a long drawn out one?
• 39:58
  SPEAKER_02: Um I still don't have the answer to that question.
• 40:03
  SPEAKER_02: I I've got to say at this point I would choose the long drawn out one because uh at least you get you get the time and you know what's coming and you you get to express your love and and spend time whereas you would you you would not have been able to in in the other way.
• 40:22
  SPEAKER_02: So I guess I guess I guess it's pretty clear.
• 40:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and I I think what you're referencing with the I think what you called it was cancer ghosting reminds me of something my my mom told us, one of my dad's nurses said um at phone, which was that you can tell sometimes by walking into someone's hospital room how long they've been sick.
• 40:44
  SPEAKER_00: Because when it's a new diagnosis, the room is filled with cards and flowers and and things like that.
• 40:48
  SPEAKER_00: And the longer someone's been sick, the more it just becomes a part of normalcy.
• 40:53
  SPEAKER_00: And we go home, and as you said, you know, you see the slip on the counter that says the next scan is April 10th.
• 40:59
  SPEAKER_00: And for me, sometimes depending on what treatment my dad was going through, it was the spots on his face or you know, the weight loss or something changing about his, you know, body and other things or you know, the my mom on the phone with the insurance companies fighting every day.
• 41:12
  SPEAKER_00: There are all these things that we see in our environments, but everyone else just, you know, yeah, they were diagnosed a number of years ago and yes, they're living with it.
• 41:22
  SPEAKER_00: And it it does feel like people forget.
• 41:27
  SPEAKER_00: Um so I I wonder from you, are there things that people have done for you that have made you feel like, oh, this group of friends or colleagues or whoever family helped me know that we're real like they they they're in it with us.
• 41:46
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, maybe advice for other people who are colleagues who are looking for, I I know I should do something, but I have no idea.
• 41:53
  SPEAKER_00: And I think sometimes it's I don't want to I don't want to say something stupid, so then they just don't say anything at all, and we're on the other side being like, Can someone just say something kind?
• 42:02
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I I don't want to go go into the the the the specific details of it, but I will say that um during this time the the Jewish community has stepped up um for us um in a way that we're extremely thankful for.
• 42:25
  SPEAKER_02: Um I'm not a the a particularly religious person, um, but I I I do identify uh with my Judaism uh and ethnicity and culture and uh very much so and I'm proud of that.
• 42:42
  SPEAKER_02: I I also remember that few uh uh in 2021, I was in England.
• 42:50
  SPEAKER_02: I was actually there to take the bar exam, and it was during that the COVID time, and I had to be there two weeks in advance and to to then go out to be able to go somewhere.
• 43:02
  SPEAKER_02: So I had to be in quarantine for two weeks before you went out.
• 43:04
  SPEAKER_02: But in any event, it turns out I got COVID.
• 43:09
  SPEAKER_02: Um and I was not able to take the bar exam.
• 43:13
  SPEAKER_02: And but it was very bad COVID.
• 43:15
  SPEAKER_02: It was it was it was the point where I I couldn't function at all.
• 43:23
  SPEAKER_02: And I got thrown out of two hotels uh because they at one point my wife called the emergency uh and when when they came to the emergency and found out that it was COVID-related, like I didn't deny I had COVID, they didn't ask me when I came in, but but um but uh my wife called the emergency and they they all came in and then they asked me to leave the hotel, and it was only then that my wife and uh my wife's father, who was always So helpful to everybody, uh got in touch with his connections and found a connection with a with a rabbi in in Leeds, England, because that's where I was.
• 44:10
  SPEAKER_02: I was in Leeds, England, uh, and uh this rabbi got me to stay somewhere where I was also thrown out.
• 44:21
  SPEAKER_02: Uh because I you know, I think the uh the rabbi may have may have not indicated that I had COVID, but I ended up being thrown so that it was the second place I was thrown out of.
• 44:31
  SPEAKER_02: But eventually I I went to this place um in uh Manchester, England.
• 44:37
  SPEAKER_02: I was taken there.
• 44:38
  SPEAKER_02: I went, I took a taxi from Leeds to Manchester, and uh I don't know if you're familiar with the there's uh quite a uh a big Jewish presence in Manchester, England.
• 44:50
  SPEAKER_02: In fact, it was um I I I ended up staying in this very religious hotel um with somebody who was who who knew I had COVID and was was like almost like my grandmother, ensuring that I had chicken soup and everything was good, and and um I I think that was only a couple of blocks away from where there was a shooting in Manchester uh this past fall.
• 45:21
  SPEAKER_02: Um and so I happened to know the area very well because I had I had spent it in in that area.
• 45:30
  SPEAKER_02: Uh and you know eventually I got to a point where I was able to to go out and walk around and everything.
• 45:36
  SPEAKER_02: And so it was uh I just the Jewish community has stepped up, and I know that you'd appreciate hearing that very much.
• 45:44
  SPEAKER_02: Um, those are the people that I identify as having stepped up the most, and our family is so appreciative of that.
• 45:57
  SPEAKER_00: Well, that's good to hear, and I'm I'm glad you do have support systems.
• 46:03
  SPEAKER_00: Um how how has what your family's been going through impacted the way you think about your career and the way you plan your days?
• 46:15
  SPEAKER_00: I remember seeing you posted about, you know, there was a time in your your life and um in your in building your career where you would work from, I think you said, you know, straight from 9 a.m.
• 46:24
  SPEAKER_00: to to n to 11 p.m.
• 46:26
  SPEAKER_00: p.m.
• 46:27
  SPEAKER_00: And uh, you know, there there may be some value to that you noted and you know in terms of sort of building the muscle, but like boy, is that not sustainable.
• 46:34
  SPEAKER_00: And there's so many reasons that's not a good idea to do in the long term.
• 46:38
  SPEAKER_00: So from that point in your career up until now, you know, especially with what your family has going on and and maybe your shift in, you know, the the values that you think about with how you spend your time and your energy.
• 46:51
  SPEAKER_00: Um but so how how do you now think about your schedule and the time you put into you know your client work and your business development and then your your family time and your you're taking care of your personal health and and living?
• 47:08
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I'm trying to trying to use the the the business time as a time away, uh time uh an escape to try to just say you just have to do this and and I this is a time for escape and and and because I because I can't really function any other way.
• 47:26
  SPEAKER_02: I but I think one of the things that I'm afraid of the you know the more things go well with business is that I'm gonna be in a situation where um my wife is not doing well and I'm so busy.
• 47:47
  SPEAKER_02: And and I can't can't make that decision to to to to not be with her during that time.
• 47:58
  SPEAKER_02: Because if it was like like it used to be, where I was working all the time, I would always make the decision to work late and and you know not come home, not spend time, uh come home, but not spend time with her, uh, you know, because I'd have to get up early the next morning and and uh I actually is fearful that that that that that will happen again because just because it it's happened and I reflect on it and said I shouldn't have done that, um, that doesn't mean it can't happen again, because I think I've shown that that I do have a tendency to fall into the into the negative behavior uh or the the the the undesirable the depressive behavior, the undesirable behavior in general.
• 48:42
  SPEAKER_02: And I just I can I can't I I can't let that happen where that takes precedence over my my my wife's health and what my family needs.
• 48:52
  SPEAKER_02: So I I I just I just simply can't do it.
• 48:55
  SPEAKER_02: I'll have to say no to to that client or say no to that particular mandate.
• 49:00
  SPEAKER_02: Um rather than it's one of the things about you know working for yourself that you you can, whereas uh working for somebody else, I always felt that I could not say no ever.
• 49:10
  SPEAKER_02: Um it's one of the things I think that that drove me out of uh the firmware I was working for in personal injury.
• 49:18
  SPEAKER_02: It's just I used to say yes to everything.
• 49:20
  SPEAKER_02: It was my that was on me.
• 49:22
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I I I had the weakness there where I would say yes to everything, the most difficult client, most demanding client, and I was so good at at bringing them, at calming them down.
• 49:33
  SPEAKER_02: One of the things that surprised me that I was good at calming them down, but but boy, did were they were they pretty aggressive for a case that had very little value at the end of the day, and you spent so much time dealing with them, uh and you tell them the same and believe, you know, the personal injury and uh uh when they look at the end when you settle their case or or you win their case, they finally look at you like I believe you're the real deal.
• 50:04
  SPEAKER_02: But up to that point, they're always doubting you.
• 50:08
  SPEAKER_02: Um and so you get that look, and I know the look.
• 50:11
  SPEAKER_02: It's a very um they they they look at you and and and they acknowledge what you've done for them.
• 50:16
  SPEAKER_02: Um but uh I I just I just couldn't go back to a situation where where I'm giving everything all the time to business and and I'm not balancing that out with what's needed at home.
• 50:29
  SPEAKER_02: I I began to learn that even when when I went on my own and and before my wife's illness, but particularly particularly now, uh I I I still am concerned that that would happen again.
• 50:41
  SPEAKER_02: I'd fall back into that position again, and then I I regret it for the rest of my life if I did that and was not there for her when she needed me.
• 50:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 50:51
  SPEAKER_00: Do you do you feel that some of that for you is that a workaholic type of thing, or you you framed it more as a depression thing?
• 50:59
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm I'm asking because I feel like for myself, I can fall very easily into workaholic mode.
• 51:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 51:06
  SPEAKER_00: And for the first phase, I launched my firm about two years ago.
• 51:13
  SPEAKER_00: Um from the outset until fairly recently, my mindset was, oh, I'm just gonna keep it small, just me.
• 51:21
  SPEAKER_00: Don't want it to grow.
• 51:22
  SPEAKER_00: And over time, and my husband laughed at me at the time because he knows me.
• 51:26
  SPEAKER_02: Not gonna happen.
• 51:28
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 51:29
  SPEAKER_00: And um and I I then the firm was growing and you know, every month is different.
• 51:37
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, I'd have some months where I'd realize, oh my god, this is this is too much for me to handle.
• 51:42
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's I can do it, but it's not good for me.
• 51:45
  SPEAKER_00: I'm I'm way beyond maxed out.
• 51:47
  SPEAKER_00: And then I'd have other months where I'd be like, oh, this is totally manageable.
• 51:49
  SPEAKER_00: And so because of the months that were manageable and I wasn't overloaded, I would think, oh, well, I I'm okay.
• 51:56
  SPEAKER_00: So maybe I shouldn't, I don't need to hire because I have some months where I'm I'm okay.
• 52:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but now I more recently acknowledged, oh, the firm is growing, whether I, you know, not that I wouldn't want it to not, but it I wasn't putting active effort into it.
• 52:10
  SPEAKER_00: And once I acknowledged, oh, okay, I think growing is fun, um, let's do that.
• 52:17
  SPEAKER_00: I was able to realize that what was holding me back before a part of it was a fear of my version of what you were saying.
• 52:24
  SPEAKER_00: It was a fear of I I'm it's very easy for me to fall into workaholic mode.
• 52:31
  SPEAKER_00: There's a reason I started the wellness esquire.
• 52:33
  SPEAKER_00: It's because it's not natural for me to take care of myself.
• 52:37
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't come naturally to me.
• 52:39
  SPEAKER_00: And so I had this fear of, but if things grow, if I get more and more clients and I I don't have the framework and the help and all the things, I won't be okay.
• 52:49
  SPEAKER_00: And finally I had a shift where I realized the firm is growing anyways.
• 52:55
  SPEAKER_00: I'm already not always okay.
• 52:57
  SPEAKER_00: I just need help.
• 52:58
  SPEAKER_00: Let's see what getting help looks like, and then what everything can sort of turn into from there.
• 53:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um but it uh it was a really critical learning sort of moment for me to acknowledge, oh, I so much of like not wanting to grow was a fear of me not handling it well.
• 53:18
  SPEAKER_02: Or just being workaholic is a fear of delegation.
• 53:23
  SPEAKER_00: Um not a fear of delegation, just not not a I think a lot of um experience with with it with it going really well.
• 53:36
  SPEAKER_00: And so a sort of a a mix of how like how do I learn to delegate um and understand you know, we you just we talked about perfectionism before.
• 53:50
  SPEAKER_00: So learning what what needs to be done my way, what doesn't need to be done my way, which is frankly a lot.
• 54:02
  SPEAKER_00: And um, you know, what what is what's really most important and how can we get how do we get the quality and the relationships and all of that stuff to go really well and to allow, you know, so how how do I grow this thing in a way that feels good and authentic for me and what I really want?
• 54:19
  SPEAKER_00: And to figure out the right people to have along with me who get what I'm going for.
• 54:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um and so it was uh it was less about I don't want to delegate.
• 54:30
  SPEAKER_00: It was a desperation actually to delegate with a struggle of how do I find the right people to do that and to help me learn how to do that.
• 54:38
  SPEAKER_00: Um it was much more of it's just really hard for me to stop.
• 54:42
  SPEAKER_00: And because everything I do is something that's meaningful to me and really important for me and and fun, which can also then make it even harder to stop because it's all mine and I want to do it.
• 54:52
  SPEAKER_00: So then when you when do you pause?
• 54:56
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 54:56
  SPEAKER_02: Well, work workaholic and depression.
• 54:59
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not I don't know if they're the other sides at the same point.
• 55:03
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know if they are, but I think that I being uh too much of a workaholic is is is a is a not a positive thing.
• 55:12
  SPEAKER_02: And um I I I think that but it's it's a it's it's a little bit different into the depression.
• 55:18
  SPEAKER_02: I I feel like I I absolutely can't help the depression when it comes on, and it's like uh something that that yeah, I just have to slug through.
• 55:30
  SPEAKER_02: Whereas being a workaholic, I do feel that that I can because I I I had that mentality for the longest time.
• 55:38
  SPEAKER_02: Um I I I feel that I could I could slow that down if I want to, but it's still a it's still a negative thing, but not in a way that that I can't control it.
• 55:49
  SPEAKER_02: Uh the depression, it's hard to control.
• 55:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 55:56
  SPEAKER_02: I I don't know.
• 56:00
  SPEAKER_02: You feel it coming on and and and and and uh life asks you, you're gonna be okay tomorrow.
• 56:06
  SPEAKER_02: And you want to say yes, but you know the answer is no.
• 56:12
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, you feel uh this time uh there comes a time where you know it's the depression is gonna lift, uh you feel it inside, but um you you know when it's not gonna lift and nobody wants to hear that it's not gonna lift.
• 56:30
  SPEAKER_00: Nobody wants to hear about that because I I don't have depression, so I have to it I have to you know learn from others of what was what is it like.
• 56:41
  SPEAKER_00: So you just said you know, if your wife asks you, you know, are you gonna be okay tomorrow and you know the answer is no?
• 56:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 56:49
  SPEAKER_00: And you feel it seems like you feel solid that the answer is no, as opposed to I don't know.
• 56:56
  SPEAKER_00: Is that right?
• 56:58
  SPEAKER_02: I I think the the answer would would be are you gonna be okay tomorrow?
• 57:02
  SPEAKER_02: Are you gonna be better tomorrow?
• 57:03
  SPEAKER_02: Are you gonna be in your office all day tomorrow?
• 57:07
  SPEAKER_02: Um as opposed to to taking breaks or you know, extended breaks.
• 57:14
  SPEAKER_02: I would know the I would know the answer is no a day in advance because I could still feel that that there's still a depression that's behind it all, and it's not it's not going to lift.
• 57:28
  SPEAKER_02: Although I've found myself in in many instances since my wife's illness.
• 57:38
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I've gone to a number of conferences, and these conferences have been very positive because uh it puts me in front of people, and I have to be at my best in front of the people.
• 57:48
  SPEAKER_02: Nobody wants to know of any anything relating to depression or of your wife's illness or anything like that.
• 57:56
  SPEAKER_02: And I was able to do that on every occasion without problem, even certain situations where I was waiting for the result of a wife's my wife's scan to come back the next day.
• 58:08
  SPEAKER_02: I remember how I said, uh I've got to be out there and I've got to be at my best.
• 58:15
  SPEAKER_02: Um, despite like I like the times where I where I wouldn't let the depression stop me, and and other times where I did let it stop me.
• 58:24
  SPEAKER_02: Um so uh like past few days, as I've uh pointed out, I I did let it I did let it stop me.
• 58:33
  SPEAKER_02: Uh but when I was when I had to uh not let it stop me, being in conferences and all that, or uh doing work for clients that had to be done by a certain time, I I would I would find a way to fight through it and not let it stop me.
• 58:49
  SPEAKER_02: It seems like when when there's less going on, there's less urgent things going on, that's when I let the depression get in the way and dictate what you know may make me down, make me not want to get out of bed, make me not want to do things to advance my career.
• 59:08
  SPEAKER_02: Um always being occupied is is always a solution.
• 59:14
  SPEAKER_02: Having your mind on other things, uh it it helps in almost it in almost every every instance.
• 59:22
  SPEAKER_02: It's just that if I if I fall into that depression, uh even if I have things on my mind, it's hard to get out of it once you're in it.
• 59:31
  SPEAKER_02: It's it's best to try to prevent yourself from from from getting into it.
• 59:35
  SPEAKER_02: I just I didn't have a clue that it would hit me uh in the past week.
• 59:39
  SPEAKER_02: Um just it wasn't thinking about that whatsoever.
• 59:44
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 59:44
  SPEAKER_00: Well, it seems also like extra exhausting.
• 59:47
  SPEAKER_00: It sounds what I'm hearing, and correct me if I'm wrong, is you are you at least sometimes kind of know that some of the tools to help you get out of it, and that's things like go put yourself in a room with a bunch of people where you you have to sort of maybe it's like you have to put on a show and you have to make yourself uh operate in XYZ fashion for some reason.
• 1:00:09
  SPEAKER_00: But that's also exhausting.
• 1:00:11
  SPEAKER_00: So if you don't have the urgency of the client thing due tomorrow or the conference that's happening tonight or something else, if it if there's not something so so time critical, um it's easy to just say, you know, it's too exhausting to get myself out of this, so I'll just let it linger.
• 1:00:31
  SPEAKER_02: And I don't mean that in a fault sort of way, but it's there there's there's there's definitely something, you know, I definitely have that that that that tendency to to depression and it's there.
• 1:00:42
  SPEAKER_02: And what can I say yesterday?
• 1:00:45
  SPEAKER_02: I wanted to go to a a networking event.
• 1:00:48
  SPEAKER_02: I wasn't play I hadn't paid for it, it was just a kind of uh, you know, we pay at the door kind of thing, and I wanted to go.
• 1:00:55
  SPEAKER_02: I really I really did, but I just couldn't get myself together to go.
• 1:01:03
  SPEAKER_02: I I just could I just couldn't.
• 1:01:06
  SPEAKER_02: Um and so I didn't go.
• 1:01:10
  SPEAKER_02: Um do I do I regret it?
• 1:01:12
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I regret it.
• 1:01:14
  SPEAKER_02: I wanted to go.
• 1:01:15
  SPEAKER_02: Uh but next week is uh there's another networking event, and and and hopefully I'll be okay to go to that networking event.
• 1:01:24
  SPEAKER_02: And and I'll tell me when it is, and I'll send you a message and I think it's the 31st, if I'm not mistaken.
• 1:01:31
  SPEAKER_02: Um uh and I knew about today and I wanted to be on for today.
• 1:01:37
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, you know, I thought it'd be particularly great coming back from vacation.
• 1:01:40
  SPEAKER_02: Also, I've experienced this this depression in the past uh several days uh to talk about that.
• 1:01:47
  SPEAKER_02: Um you know, I wanted to to have the the discussion.
• 1:01:51
  SPEAKER_02: It's just um whereas I I didn't feel like I needed to mingle yesterday and I just I just didn't I just didn't need to do it.
• 1:02:00
  SPEAKER_02: I I I said no to it, you know.
• 1:02:04
  SPEAKER_02: Nobody cares anyway, you know, whether you show up or you don't.
• 1:02:07
  SPEAKER_02: It's just your own thing.
• 1:02:08
  SPEAKER_02: Uh I didn't tell anybody I was gonna show up.
• 1:02:10
  SPEAKER_02: Uh it was just it would have been just me going, but I just just just didn't have it in me to go and and beat traffic or take the train.
• 1:02:20
  SPEAKER_02: Uh it yesterday the depression had the upper hand on me, and and uh that was just the way it was.
• 1:02:30
  SPEAKER_02: Today, not so much.
• 1:02:33
  SPEAKER_00: Fantastic.
• 1:02:34
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I'm glad today seems like it's it's a maybe I'll call it an easier day.
• 1:02:38
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know if that's the right word.
• 1:02:40
  SPEAKER_02: It's an e it's an easier day, exactly.
• 1:02:43
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
• 1:02:44
  SPEAKER_00: Is there anything else that you want to share about your your law journey, about your life experience, around the way you're you're integrating life and work and taking care of yourself and your family, or anything else we've haven't touched on?
• 1:03:02
  SPEAKER_02: Well I I think I pr pretty much uh said uh almost all the the I I could think of is and saying I think it's really important to take care of yourself early on in your legal journey to so that you don't run up against uh more problems in the end.
• 1:03:23
  SPEAKER_02: I think that I think that uh had I not been such a workaholic early on, I think uh it would have protected me, even though the two things are not are not related, would have protected me from kind of the long depressions that I experienced with with uh in relation to my my wife's illness, and that I still may experience, like I can't tell you right now, I I'm not gonna experience that again because you know the next scan comes, and if it's an it's a scan that that is not good news, you know, I told myself a thousand times I'll I'll I'll work through it, but I don't know for sure.
• 1:04:07
  SPEAKER_02: So it's best to develop uh best habits early on, um being a workaholic, uh you know, it it's good in a way you feel so good when you're working and you feel like you can outwork anybody, uh, and that's such a positive quality, but at the end, it isn't because you you you have to sacrifice a lot of things to to uh to to to be able to sustain that.
• 1:04:34
  SPEAKER_02: And so um yeah, I would just say uh even keel and being on uh uh do things moderately is uh from the beginning is the best as as as much as you as as much as you can possibly do it.
• 1:04:48
  SPEAKER_02: I remember I worked at at a law firm earlier on in my career.
• 1:04:52
  SPEAKER_02: It was they called it a lifestyle law firm, but I was the one working the most hours.
• 1:04:57
  SPEAKER_02: I was like, what is this?
• 1:04:59
  SPEAKER_02: You know, it's like it's a lifestyle firm.
• 1:05:01
  SPEAKER_02: I mean I I worked the most hours for years straight.
• 1:05:07
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
• 1:05:08
  SPEAKER_02: It's like I didn't take advantage of that.
• 1:05:10
  SPEAKER_02: You know, who says we're a lifestyle firm?
• 1:05:12
  SPEAKER_02: Well, they said it and I didn't I I was totally not like that.
• 1:05:16
  SPEAKER_02: So it prepared me well for my future career then as a as a plaintiff personal injury lawyer to to you know to to be a workaholic and um now I'm only realizing after all this time I and maybe I should have taken them up on that lifestyle offer anyway.
• 1:05:32
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much for for sharing all that you did.
• 1:05:36
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so many lawyers are going through something, and many of us have been either explicitly or told or implicitly guided that we're not supposed to talk about the real tough stuff, the real things we're living through.
• 1:05:49
  SPEAKER_00: And that just really doesn't help anybody.
• 1:05:52
  SPEAKER_00: And um I I I really believe uh that the more we talk about all this stuff out loud and make it okay to do so and normalize the real tough stuff, um, the better we're all gonna do because we don't feel like we have to pretend it's not happening and we can speak up and get the help that we need and and telling each other, hey, I'm not okay today, I need a lighter load or whatever it is.
• 1:06:18
  SPEAKER_00: So thank you for being one of the voices that says, Yep, life is tough sometimes, and here's here's how we're getting through it.
• 1:06:25
  SPEAKER_00: Some days are harder than others, and that's that's how it is, and that's okay.
• 1:06:30
  SPEAKER_02: That's right.
• 1:06:31
  SPEAKER_02: At the last conference I was at, uh in because I was at a caliph uh a conference in California for the first four days, and then we went on vacation.
• 1:06:37
  SPEAKER_02: I hadn't talked about my wife's illness at all to anybody in all the days, and I had met hundreds of people.
• 1:06:44
  SPEAKER_02: But the the last person had a personal that I spoke to had a personal story that she had uh gone through breast cancer, and it it made me talk about it.
• 1:06:56
  SPEAKER_02: And it was it was good to have the conversation.
• 1:06:59
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, but it was only only one, so I I'm I'm still you know, I do I do write about it on LinkedIn time to time, but it's not something that that I I actively talk with people because I think uh for the most part people don't like to hear bad news.
• 1:07:16
  SPEAKER_02: I I I still believe that.
• 1:07:18
  SPEAKER_02: And uh, you know, I'm happy to talk about it with you and and people who who specifically are open to hearing it, but I still try to keep things as positive as possible in the in the day-to-day.
• 1:07:29
  SPEAKER_00: Well, thank you very much.
• 1:07:31
  SPEAKER_00: And um and I I think people are gonna really benefit from hearing hearing your story.
• 1:07:37
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you very much for taking the time to interview me.
• 1:07:40
  SPEAKER_02: I appreciate everything that you do.
• 1:07:42
  SPEAKER_02: Really admirable.
• 1:07:44
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much.
• 1:07:45
  SPEAKER_02: All the best.
• 1:07:46
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks for listening.
• 1:07:47
  SPEAKER_00: I hope you got a ton of value from this conversation, and that you will check out the links in the description to learn more about the guest and the wellness esquire.
• 1:07:55
  SPEAKER_00: And I hope you take even just one minute to do something for yourself today.
• 1:07:59
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe right now.
• 1:08:00
  SPEAKER_00: Drink more water, say no, call a friend, do something that makes you happy, have a 30 second dance party, find something to make you laugh.
• 1:08:08
  SPEAKER_00: Also, be sure to subscribe and send the podcast to a colleague.
• 1:08:12
  SPEAKER_00: And if we're not yet connected on LinkedIn, please fix that.
• 1:08:15
  SPEAKER_00: I'd love to know you.
• 1:08:17
  SPEAKER_00: See you next time.