Latest / Scrappy but Successful [Consultant's Personalities When No One's Watching] / 57. From Metal Bands to Legal Marketing: The LegalFenix Story with Ron Latz

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57. From Metal Bands to Legal Marketing: The LegalFenix Story with Ron Latz · Scrappy but Successful [Consultant's Personalities When No One's Watching]

• 0:03
  What's happening, everybody? Welcome to Scrappy What's Successful, the show where I sit down with
• 0:07
  your favorite consultants and we find out if they're successful today because they're sophisticated or
• 0:11
  because they're a little bit scrappy. I'm your host, Jack Tompkins, CEO of Pineapple Consulting
• 0:16
  Firm and Pineapple Analyst AI, always helping small businesses become more data-driven. Fun fact of
• 0:20
  the day: most suburbs were built after the invention of the car. However, where our
• 0:25
  guest is from, Westchester, New York is widely considered the first ever planned suburb community.
• 0:29
  1683. Couple two, three years before the car. But that's neither here nor there. Today
• 0:34
  I'm joined by my friend Ron Latz. He's the founder of Legal Phoenix. They're a
• 0:38
  marketing advisory firm. And they honestly they redefine how law firms approach growth. He's got
• 0:43
  more than 15 years experience in the legal marketing industry. He's guided countless firms through
• 0:47
  the complexities of modern marketing. And he does it with some clarity and a whole
• 0:52
  lot of candor. So, Ron, buddy, thank you for joining. So pumped to have you
• 0:56
  on. We know that you're successful, but the question we have for you today. Do
• 1:01
  you think you fall more on the sophisticated side, more on the scrappy side? Ron
• 1:05
  Latz | LegalFenix (01:08) Well, first and foremost, thanks so much for the invite. I
• 1:10
  know this will be a fun, probably wide-ranging conversation, Jack. Did not know that about
• 1:14
  Westchester. I'm actually a transplant,
• 1:16
  Here we go. Ron Latz | LegalFenix (01:17) born and raised in New Jersey, where
• 1:19
  most of
• 1:20
  Okay. Ron Latz | LegalFenix (01:20) my roots are, but it's very good to know.
• 1:22
  And
• 1:23
  Yeah. Ron Latz | LegalFenix (01:25) as far as scrappy or sophisticated, I like to
• 1:27
  think that it's a blend of both, but I to if I had to choose
• 1:32
  one, I would definitely say scrappy. I've got two younger sisters. One is incredibly book
• 1:37
  smart. The other is just very motivated and determined to great learner, book smart as
• 1:42
  well. But I was certainly the one that was scrappy and street smart out of
• 1:47
  the family here.
• 1:48
  Okay. Nice. Okay. Let's we'll go through the the question, see if the data agrees
• 1:52
  with you. So take me back to Jersey. Where in Jersey are you growing up?
• 1:56
  Did you have any entrepreneurs in the family? Ron Latz | LegalFenix (02:00) Did not.
• 2:00
  I grew up born and raised in central New Jersey in a town called Sierreville.
• 2:04
  I went to a cool school called Saint Joseph's in Matucheon, about fifteen miles away.
• 2:09
  I went there because my local high school didn't have an ice hockey team. And
• 2:13
  at that point in my life I thought that I was going to the show.
• 2:17
  Wanted to do everything that I could to put myself on the path to the
• 2:21
  NHL. I know you can't see on this call, but you know, being just under
• 2:25
  six foot, a little under two hundred pounds, like I was I was kinda s
• 2:30
  you know, I had a right size, but not for
• 2:33
  Yeah. Ron Latz | LegalFenix (02:34) not for the pros and relied much more so
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  on my my hands and speed. Again the scrappiness, right? I wasn't the most physical
• 2:40
  player there. So
• 2:41
  Gotcha. Okay. what do the parents do for work? Ron Latz | LegalFenix (02:46) I
• 2:47
  I grew up with a family of teachers. My mother's a teacher. My younger sister
• 2:53
  is a teacher, my other younger sister married a teacher, and my father was in
• 3:00
  the insurance industry, was an actuary for for AIG, a career AIG. Yeah.
• 3:06
  Okay, look at that. Very nice. I was an actuary for about 20 minutes in
• 3:09
  college, passed one exam, was like, all right, that's enough for me. Ron Latz |
• 3:13
  LegalFenix (03:14) Yeah, my sister also took the examination. She was like, Dad, I'm I'm
• 3:17
  not going down that path. But I'll teach math. I'll teach math. So
• 3:21
  There you go. Okay. That's much more fun. how were you as a kid? Did
• 3:25
  you have a lemonade stand? Were you selling candy at school? Did you have that
• 3:29
  kind of entrepreneurial lean to you? Ron Latz | LegalFenix (03:31) Yeah, I mean I
• 3:33
  was you know the garage sales, a couple of my buddies were flipping cut co
• 3:38
  so we would knock on doors and cut the ropes with the and the pennies
• 3:42
  with the scissors and sell the ice cream scoops because frankly I think that was
• 3:46
  the best piece that they had in the entire set. going through high school, a
• 3:51
  couple jobs, I would dial for doll. you know, call on behalf of the fraternal
• 3:55
  order of police, local fire stations, just to collect donations, right? So I've always had
• 3:59
  that as as as part of what I do. I've always, you know, got involved
• 4:04
  with you know, for the sports teams, selling the candy bars so that we could
• 4:08
  get a little bit better equipment, better jerseys, you know, whatever it may be. So
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  I've had that in me, you know, since I was a a young guy and
• 4:17
  was also involved in a in a band, right? So you gotta sell tickets, you
• 4:21
  gotta sell CDs, you gotta sell merch, right? So we were always grinding and trying
• 4:25
  to get the word about word out about who we were and what we were
• 4:30
  Okay. What was your role in the band? Ron Latz | LegalFenix (04:34) although I
• 4:34
  was a terrible musician, I played keys. So we were originally a piano rock band,
• 4:39
  kind of coming up
• 4:41
  Okay. Ron Latz | LegalFenix (04:41) in the in the emo days. And then as
• 4:45
  we progressively as we continued to listen to heavier and heavier music, we got progressively
• 4:49
  heavier and heavier. So by the time I rolled out of the band, we were
• 4:53
  full-blown metal. So it was
• 4:55
  Nice. Ron Latz | LegalFenix (04:56) quite the transformation.
• 4:58
  Okay. what was the first concert you ever attended? Ron Latz | LegalFenix (05:06) It
• 5:04
  was probably something either at Asbury Park or Stone Pony or something down the shore
• 5:11
  in in Jersey.
• 5:13
  Okay. Ron Latz | LegalFenix (05:14) there was another local like local venue. It was
• 5:16
  probably some, you know, up and coming pop punk random random band. I don't recall.
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  I went to a lot of the festivals, warp tours, skate and surf where it'd
• 5:24
  be like
• 5:25
  Yeah. Ron Latz | LegalFenix (05:27) a three-day event and you get to see all
• 5:28
  your favorite bands and you're just listening to music, hanging with your friends for twelve
• 5:32
  hours a day. It was amazing.
• 5:34
  Man, I was I I never actually went to Warp Tour, but I looked at
• 5:38
  the list, I was like, that's every band that I like and a few ones
• 5:42
  that I'm probably gonna like a heck of a lot more too. Like, that was
• 5:46
  the coolest thing back in the day. Ron Latz | LegalFenix (05:48) it great, great
• 5:51
  memories, you know, and and playing some of those shows and you get the lanyard
• 5:55
  there, you get to hang out backstage and like see bands that I mean at
• 5:59
  that point. It was when it was pre it pre dates even like Fall Out
• 6:03
  Boy, Yellow Card, Koheed,
• 6:05
  Yeah. Ron Latz | LegalFenix (06:06) like all these big bands that hadn't hadn't like
• 6:09
  had their huge awakening and didn't get super big. Take like even taking back Sunday,
• 6:13
  Story of the Year, Get Up Kids, Thursday. I mean it was some gr it
• 6:18
  was it was it was awesome. I think now it's referred to, I don't even
• 6:22
  know if it's still in existence, but Skate and Surf, they had to sunset that.
• 6:26
  Then I think it turned into Bamboozle Fest and then something
• 6:30
  Okay. Ron Latz | LegalFenix (06:31) else. But I'm not I'm not on the the
• 6:34
  the show circuit as much these days as I was when I was actively playing
• 6:38
  in the band.
• 6:39
  Fair. I I mean the bands you just listed off describe my entire middle school
• 6:42
  and high school years. That was the soundtrack day in, day out. Ron Latz |
• 6:45
  LegalFenix (06:45) Right. Right. And now we listen to stuff and it's like, you know,
• 6:49
  the oldies and goodies and it's like, no, what do you mean? It's right. But
• 6:52
  now
• 6:53
  All these I know. It's insulting. Ron Latz | LegalFenix (06:57) all these bands are
• 6:57
  doing like their twenty year anniversary and it's like, man, it's
• 7:01
  I know. Ron Latz | LegalFenix (07:02) it's been some time.
• 7:03
  Did you see I think it's all American rejects or or I I think it's
• 7:07
  them, but they're just like they'll show up in a backyard house party and just
• 7:11
  start jamming and then obviously big crowd comes l like they just show up and
• 7:15
  have a good time. Ron Latz | LegalFenix (07:16) Yeah. Well, two of my favorites,
• 7:19
  August Burns Red and then Under Oath, Define the Great Line has been twenty years,
• 7:23
  so I'm gonna try to get out to to see that locally if I can,
• 7:27
  but I digress.
• 7:28
  Nice. Nice. Okay, cool. All right. We got a whole lot of scrappiness going on.
• 7:33
  Give me 30 seconds on today. What the heck do you guys do at Legal
• 7:39
  Phoenix today? Then we're gonna build a bridge from from the band years to today.
• 7:44
  Ron Latz | LegalFenix (07:42) There you go. Well, these days we're exclusively helping law
• 7:50
  firms with managing their entire marketing ecosystem. That would include its people, the process, and
• 7:55
  the technology, right? So law firms come to us as an outsource solution where we
• 8:01
  act as fractional CMOs and help develop, refine, improve marketing strategy, budget. Channel allocation and
• 8:06
  marketing mix, oversee and help manage any marketing partners, agencies, and vendors, and then also
• 8:12
  provide support to in-house resources so that they can continue doing the great work that
• 8:17
  they do. So anyone that is interested in kind of alleviating the burden of managing
• 8:23
  all those components of their marketing program, law firms tap into Legal Phoenix and we
• 8:28
  help them out in that regard.
• 8:31
  Very nice. Okay. How'd you land on the law marketing? The very niche marketing. And
• 8:35
  I know even within law, curious, like I know you have a couple of specialties
• 8:39
  in there. What are the specialties within the law field? And how the heck do
• 8:43
  you land on this? Ron Latz | LegalFenix (08:47) like most, it was my dream
• 8:47
  to only work with lawyers, right? You know.
• 8:50
  Of course. Ron Latz | LegalFenix (08:53) No, and and I know that I'm joking,
• 8:54
  but I really do enjoy it. Like there is a a a a level of
• 8:59
  just selfishness in that we are able to put ourselves in a position to help
• 9:04
  individuals find and become aware of service professionals, of lawyers that can help them through
• 9:09
  some of their most difficult times in their life, right? And allowing Then to connect
• 9:14
  with the firm through the visibility and the awareness and the reach that we have
• 9:19
  a part in facilitating with all of our partners definitely feels good, right? Because there
• 9:24
  are some things that they really need help with. No light at the end of
• 9:28
  the tunnel, but the lawyers is the one that can step in and kind of
• 9:33
  alleviate that, vindicate them, get them financial recovery, whatever it may be. and while we
• 9:38
  do only work within legal, there's really no practice area law firm. That we wouldn't
• 9:43
  partner with outside of the fact that we work on Just you know, plaintive side
• 9:48
  work. So we're not representing defense, and we're if we're with employment engagements, we're representing
• 9:53
  firms that help out the employee and not the employer. So we offer a consulting
• 9:58
  service. We've had pretty much every single practice area that's out there where we're just
• 10:03
  offering advisory so that they can get the right direction, get great counsel from someone
• 10:07
  that's an independent third party and can at least steer them in the right direction
• 10:12
  and let them execute, and then when they're ready, to essentially assign that over to
• 10:17
  somebody else to. manage and sit directly within that seat, that's when the fractional CMO
• 10:22
  offering makes sense. The majority of our clients are personal injury, but we do work
• 10:27
  with family, criminal, you know, you name it.
• 10:30
  Okay. Okay. Very nice. Did you go to school for this type of marketing work?
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  Did you kind of stumble into it? How did you get your like your first
• 10:41
  start there? Ron Latz | LegalFenix (10:39) No, I just went to school for business
• 10:47
  management and administration. I fell into legal after I left Xerox, which is my first
• 10:52
  job, I got connected with a couple guys that were with Reuters and within their
• 10:58
  legal division, worked for a company that they no longer own called Fine Law. And
• 11:04
  then from there, as I had continued down my professional, you know, path. Had those
• 11:09
  clients that maintained in touch with me. We had great relationships. They continually wanted to
• 11:15
  just bend my ear, get recommendations and suggestions, which is when I originally incorporated what
• 11:21
  I would call the first version of Legal Phoenix. It'll actually be 10 years incorporated
• 11:26
  in September. So.
• 11:28
  Nice. Wow. Ron Latz | LegalFenix (11:29) you know, it looked a little bit different
• 11:32
  ten years ago. I also wasn't calling it fractional CMO. I just said I was
• 11:37
  a legal marketing consultant and now it's all the rage, but I was just trying
• 11:42
  to help lawyers protect their investment, ensure that they weren't getting the wool pulled over
• 11:47
  their eyes or price gouged, and really just A lot of times reset expectations, right?
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  Because they have an under they believe that there's an understanding about how long things
• 11:57
  should take, how much they should invest, and how successful they should be from those
• 12:01
  efforts. And it's not always in alignment with reality. So stepping in there and being
• 12:06
  able to act as a a completely neutral party because I'm not selling SEO or
• 12:11
  ad management or designing or developing websites, right? I just want to make sure that
• 12:16
  they've got the best advice that they possibly can. They're working with partners that do
• 12:21
  a Great job at a market competitive rate so we can try to create this
• 12:26
  this win-win-win situation.
• 12:27
  Okay. So coming in as s especially at this time as the legal consultant, right?
• 12:31
  So it's hey, let's make sure everything is kind of aligned. And the classic thing
• 12:35
  is like dentists and doctors, they teach you how to do that, but they don't
• 12:39
  teach you how to run a business. I imagine it's the same thing with lawyers.
• 12:44
  So they want to come in or they want you to come in rather and
• 12:48
  have that overview of all right, what are your business goals? How the heck are
• 12:52
  you talking to people? Is the messaging aligned? Are you getting the right things from
• 12:57
  ads and SEO and all this other stuff? You are that overarching Let's get everybody
• 13:01
  on the same page. Ron Latz | LegalFenix (12:59) Yeah, just so that the left
• 13:05
  hand knows what the right's doing. And sometimes that's the issue, Jack, right? The marketing
• 13:10
  strategy isn't tied to the firm's business goals and objectives. Right? So understanding the role
• 13:14
  in which each channel plays in helping you hit your growth target or your business
• 13:18
  objective is i is important. So that's why we get brought in many times.
• 13:23
  Gotcha. Makes perfect sense. You mentioned version one. Where was what was what was version
• 13:28
  one? Let's talk about that a little bit. Was that a side hustle? Ron Latz
• 13:33
  | LegalFenix (13:32) Yeah, I guess I would consider it a side hustle. you know,
• 13:38
  this th these are all DBAs now, but the original company was Athlete Consulting. And
• 13:43
  I I I did work with other service professionals outside of lawyers at that time.
• 13:48
  I had a bunch of accountants that were, you know, kind of looking at business
• 13:53
  development strategy, how to continually network to build up their book of business. that was
• 13:58
  like the largest subcategory of of service professionals. you know some other financial advisors as
• 14:03
  well. But like once I left Reuters and had started Atelite, I was just having
• 14:08
  fun. Again, yeah, like to your point it was probably just like it w it
• 14:13
  was. It was more of a side hustle, just people that I enjoyed speaking with
• 14:18
  and working with and helping. And then that continued to grow and it got to
• 14:23
  the point where I was able to kind of go out on my own and
• 14:28
  make it a full-time thing.
• 14:30
  Okay. And you mentioned they're all DBAs now. How do you come up with let's
• 14:35
  start with the name first. Was Adele was the first one? Adelite. Ron Latz |
• 14:40
  LegalFenix (14:37) Ad elite, yeah. And then it was you know, a play on words
• 14:45
  of like advertising elite. And then I shifted over to Tetra Peak, and that was
• 14:50
  when I had really refined it down to four primary key offerings. and it was
• 14:55
  still it was still mostly legal, but I hadn't officially started like turning away non-legal
• 15:00
  clients.
• 15:01
  Defining it as mostly legal is hilarious out of context, but mean mostly legal targeted,
• 15:05
  got it. Ron Latz | LegalFenix (15:06) Yeah, mostly legal targets. Yeah. but yeah, outside
• 15:10
  of that, I finally landed. I wanted to just kinda completely reset, rebrand, rename, let
• 15:15
  it be very well known that this is the space that we are in, this
• 15:19
  is what we do, this is how we do it, and this is how we
• 15:24
  do it differently than the guys or gals next door. And I finally landed on
• 15:29
  Legal Phoenix, which I guess it took me ten years to finally land on a
• 15:33
  name I actually liked.
• 15:35
  It's how it goes, man. It's how it goes. Some stick and a lot don't.
• 15:37
  and the Ron Latz | LegalFenix (15:39) That's it. That's it.
• 15:40
  intentional spelling, so for for the audio listeners, legal, spelled like it sounds, and then
• 15:44
  Phoenix F E N I X. Take it behind. Why why the slightly different spelling?
• 15:49
  Ron Latz | LegalFenix (15:51) Well, you know, being an SEO, if I were to
• 15:54
  spell it like the city there, I would probably get conflated and thrown in the
• 15:59
  mix with Phoenix legal service providers.
• 16:01
  Yeah. Ron Latz | LegalFenix (16:02) it was also just something that was a little
• 16:06
  bit different. and I wanted to I just wanted to, you know, just break break
• 16:11
  out from the the the normal. It would be a little bit unexpected. That's all.
• 16:16
  It occasionally gets mispronounced, but it's all good.
• 16:19
  Yeah. Yeah, that's that's kind of the price you're paid, but it's well worth it
• 16:24
  too. Cause I think a little bit of differentiation creates a little bit of intrigue.
• 16:29
  I'm a fan of it. So taking back to the beginning, kind of a side
• 16:34
  hustle and then eventually building up enough to be full time. was it just you?
• 16:39
  Did you have any partners? Ron Latz | LegalFenix (16:35) No, it was just me.
• 16:44
  And you know, before I actually started hiring people, I did I did help and
• 16:49
  did a little bit of work at another smaller boutique legal marketing agency. and I
• 16:54
  really just got tired of the blame game and finger pointing, Jack. It was still
• 16:59
  a situation, even though we were doing great work where Agency points finger at firm
• 17:04
  or firm points finger at agency. A lot of blame game. Leads aren't good. You're
• 17:09
  not answering your phone. You're dropping the ball at the one-yard line. You're not responsive
• 17:14
  to our comp. It was just a lot of time spent not focusing on helping
• 17:20
  the firm achieve the goals that they want. More time just spent rationalizing and justifying
• 17:25
  why we're doing certain marketing or why certain marketing makes sense. Whereas if we're all
• 17:30
  just aligned on the target and aiming in the right direction, we probably would get
• 17:35
  a lot more done. Which is another reason why I didn't want to go and
• 17:40
  and offer agency services. I really wanted to ensure that I was providing, you know,
• 17:45
  objective guidance then from a vendor neutral perspective, and that there was never, you know,
• 17:50
  any incentive to bring a firm to a particular partner because they were lining our
• 17:55
  pockets. This this keeps everything on the up and up.
• 17:59
  Yeah, I like it. It's a very honest approach too, which is great. early days,
• 18:03
  maybe a couple of struggle days. What was your version of like a ramen noodle
• 18:07
  dinner back then? Ron Latz | LegalFenix (18:10) well I mean in college it was
• 18:11
  all hungry man's You know, just the
• 18:14
  Okay, sure. Ron Latz | LegalFenix (18:16) microwaveable stuff. I go across to the Sinoco
• 18:19
  A plus to to eat my dinner 'cause I you know, I was poor as
• 18:24
  hell, man.
• 18:25
  Yeah. Ron Latz | LegalFenix (18:27) But you know, here I initially it was just
• 18:29
  I I don't want to say lifestyle business, but I didn't expect to start hiring
• 18:33
  people and growing it as as as fast or quickly, or some people might say
• 18:37
  as as slow as I have. I just I really wanted to do great work,
• 18:41
  get into like I love the strategic development, I love putting puzzle pieces together to
• 18:45
  figure out a way to reach the goal. I like building and putting those pieces
• 18:49
  together. and when you kind of see that light at the end of the tunnel,
• 18:53
  having get brighter and brighter because you're you're doing the right things. You're you're crawling,
• 18:57
  you're walking, and you're then running to to get to the finish line. And not
• 19:01
  that there's ever gonna be a finish line when you're building a business there. I
• 19:05
  mean, maybe there would be for some that want to sell in and walk out,
• 19:10
  but like this is just an ongoing effort that I want to continue on the
• 19:14
  path because it it excites me. I'm passionate about it. I get to work with
• 19:18
  people that I absolutely love working with and we get to help some incredible clients.
• 19:22
  So those beginning days as far as like you know, the Ilio's dinner or the
• 19:26
  ramen noodle nights, it was like
• 19:28
  Yeah. Ron Latz | LegalFenix (19:29) I was very lucky, very fortunate and I'm super
• 19:33
  grateful that that there there wasn't a lot of that Jack. I I had been
• 19:38
  in this space for again well over a decade and a half, right? I was
• 19:43
  very much in legal. I had great clients and relationships with a ton of firms
• 19:48
  and there were the handful there that really helped like catapult or just spring launch
• 19:53
  us into what we're able to build over the past couple of years and I
• 19:58
  I I couldn't be more grateful and thankful to those individuals.
• 20:02
  Very nice. Anything in the beginning that you wildly overthought? People often go website or
• 20:06
  something like that, but you're a marketing guy, so I don't think it's gonna be
• 20:11
  the website. Ron Latz | LegalFenix (20:12) Yeah, no, I mean again I was very
• 20:16
  lucky that I had all that stuff in place. I already had a wet I
• 20:20
  mean, yes, I was rebranding and and relaunching, but outside of that, you know, things
• 20:25
  like the business name, the banking, the accounting software, the invoice software, like the CR
• 20:30
  like the CRM, the like I had most of the infrastructure already there. I grossly
• 20:35
  underestimated how long it was going to take to trademark the name.
• 20:39
  Yeah. Ron Latz | LegalFenix (20:40) And once it was originally approved, again, oversight, my
• 20:44
  part, lawyers part, but they snuck a space in between legal and phoenix. So we
• 20:50
  had to reapply and
• 20:52
  no. Ron Latz | LegalFenix (20:52) get that done. So that was like a 14,
• 20:57
  16 month process. That took way longer than I had thought. it also took me
• 21:03
  way shorter to have to hire the first full-time employee. because again, I was not
• 21:08
  expecting that. So I had worked with some contractors on Upwork. My my longest tenured
• 21:14
  now employee has been with me almost since day one. She's my EA, turned ops
• 21:19
  manager, and worked with her for over two years on Upwork, bought her out, now
• 21:25
  full-time employee. and then that first W-2 employee in November will be two years. So
• 21:30
  got some cool anniversaries coming up.
• 21:33
  Very nice. Okay. And I know we've talked a little bit about your not the
• 21:36
  hiring strategy, but hiring process now. Tell us about the early day hiring process and
• 21:40
  how that has evolved. Ron Latz | LegalFenix (21:45) it was all me originally and
• 21:44
  now I don't do any of it and work with a partner that helps me
• 21:48
  identify
• 21:49
  Right. Ron Latz | LegalFenix (21:50) candidates way way better, way faster,
• 21:53
  Yeah. Ron Latz | LegalFenix (21:54) than I than I ever would. it is not
• 21:57
  a hat that I necessarily want to wear. I'm doing it in other in other
• 22:02
  other capacity. capacities during conversations with individual. Like I see people that are active on
• 22:07
  social. I see people, you know, that have a voice within the space and really
• 22:12
  share some thoughtful and strategic stuff that are representing, you know, other agencies. And like
• 22:17
  those are always relationships that You know, I want to make sure I'm developing and
• 22:21
  nurturing. but initially it was just word of mouth, networking, good old fashioned, like hopping
• 22:26
  on a Zoom call. And I started, I I I I discovered Kristen is who
• 22:31
  I'm talking about here through a post from somebody else that worked at CallRail that
• 22:36
  was connected with her. And I was like, there's no way that this woman's ever
• 22:41
  gonna want to work for Legal Phoenix. Like, why why would you do this? She
• 22:46
  was at an agency, like had a had a a pretty senior role. And, you
• 22:50
  know, we talked for probably like a handful of months before we even were like,
• 22:55
  okay, we're gonna do this. Like, are you good? This is kind of a risky
• 23:00
  thing, you're gonna be number one. but it's been it's it's it's been it's been
• 23:05
  great. It's been great. So
• 23:07
  Now you fly in candidates when you're trying to hire them if they're from somewhere
• 23:11
  else. You'll fly out. Okay. Ron Latz | LegalFenix (23:11) I'll fly out. I'll fly
• 23:16
  out. Yeah, just because, you know, at this point, I still feel like sitting down,
• 23:21
  face to face, breaking bread, grabbing a drink, whatever it is, like you're able to
• 23:26
  pick up some signals on a Zoom, how people carry themselves, how they present themselves,
• 23:31
  their confidence, their follow-up, how they treat others throughout the process. But like sitting down
• 23:36
  with somebody, interacting with them, right? I I I tend to like to grab a
• 23:41
  coffee, grab a meal. Are they on time? Are they appreciative? Are they thankful? Do
• 23:45
  they respect the hostess or the server? Right? Like Are they thank like there's just
• 23:50
  so many different things that you can pick up in a real real life experience
• 23:55
  that, you know, we're still very small, seven, eight employees now. So it's like they're
• 24:00
  very important. And I just wanna do everything that we possibly can to make sure
• 24:05
  that we're making the right decision. So I'll fly out. to go do that. I
• 24:10
  didn't have to fly out the last time. The most recent employee was in New
• 24:15
  York, so I got to hop on a train, go right to Grand Central. I'll
• 24:19
  be in the city next week where we'll fly someone in on the team and
• 24:24
  we'll meet up with a guy that's in New York and kinda just sit down
• 24:29
  in war room style. Just bunker down.
• 24:32
  Nice. Okay, I do like that a lot 'cause I mean, I I think everybody
• 24:36
  has made a bad hire in some fashion. And sure you spend five hundred bucks
• 24:41
  on a plane, a thousand for the total trip, whatever it ends up being, that's
• 24:46
  a heck of a lot less expensive than a hundred thousand dollar hire that turns
• 24:50
  out to be pretty bad in six months. Ron Latz | LegalFenix (24:51) Completely agree.
• 24:55
  Completely agree.
• 24:56
  Yeah. It's I I I like it a lot. And I think do you do
• 25:00
  you fly out just 'cause of the logistics of you don't want to have them
• 25:04
  fly to you and then the logistics of, hey, I'll reimburse you for this? Or
• 25:08
  is it just you want them to be in their own kind of home turf?
• 25:12
  Ron Latz | LegalFenix (25:11) It's a lot to ask someone to invest the money
• 25:17
  and the time. people have family. So I've just found it it's always been just
• 25:21
  a little bit easier for me to say, Hey, I'll fly out, we'll grab a
• 25:25
  meal, and I'll you know, if they're in a market where we've got clients or
• 25:29
  other people that I'm connected with, like I try to make obviously the most out
• 25:33
  of the trip. but we You know, it's not like we're we're again, it's not
• 25:38
  this like talk about scrappy versus sophisticated. I'll tell you what, we do not have
• 25:42
  a sophisticated like interviewing process, right? It's like you talk to me for me, like
• 25:46
  I talk with someone for a little bit just to kind of get a feel
• 25:50
  of who they are more as a person, not a technical assessment, just like, hey,
• 25:55
  can we can can can we talk shop? And then I I I pass them
• 25:59
  on to you know our VP of ops. I usually would pass them on depending
• 26:03
  upon the role to either another fractional CMO or an account director that's on the
• 26:07
  team. And then once they kind of pass that gate, right, then we have a
• 26:11
  much longer, more formal conversation. Then we all huddle together. We kind of say yay
• 26:16
  or nay. And if everyone's in alignment, I'll say, All right, let's go out. And
• 26:20
  I'll just have a a more a more formal in-person meeting with them.
• 26:24
  Has anybody not passed that final in person step? Ron Latz | LegalFenix (26:27) No,
• 26:27
  but people have said no thank you.
• 26:29
  Wow, interesting. Okay. I Ron Latz | LegalFenix (26:31) Yep. Yes.
• 26:33
  that's actually even a test of itself of are they cool with me showing up
• 26:37
  and saying hi, let's go to your favorite restaurant. I like that a lot. Yeah.
• 26:41
  Ron Latz | LegalFenix (26:40) Right? To each their own. It's it's I'm not right.
• 26:45
  Like that's just they're probably not all too interested. Maybe they're interested in the job,
• 26:49
  but they're probably not all too interested with legal phoenix. So,
• 26:53
  Sure. Ron Latz | LegalFenix (26:54) you know. And it's not I'm not doing that
• 26:56
  as a way to filter out candidates. But I just I genuinely want to meet
• 26:59
  the individual. That's all. Right. So yeah.
• 27:01
  Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it makes sense. all right, take me to some client work. Then
• 27:06
  we're gonna we're gonna get into some more scrappy or sophisticated questions. So client work
• 27:11
  today. how do you and the team kind of continuously prove value? As a consultant,
• 27:17
  obviously we're in this situation of expenses get big, consultants are often the first to
• 27:22
  go. How do you continuously prove value? Ron Latz | LegalFenix (27:23) Yeah, we've got
• 27:27
  to be proactive in telling our clients, regardless, like the good, bad, or the ugly,
• 27:33
  and over communicating as much as we possibly can. Right? there's going to be There's
• 27:38
  usually going to be a disconnect, for example, when when a firm doesn't clearly understand
• 27:44
  the value that an agency is making on the channels that they might even be
• 27:49
  managing. So in also ensuring that they have complete clarity around why we are doing
• 27:54
  the things that we are doing with each of our partners and then the impact
• 28:00
  that it's going to have on the overall strategy and then what we are doing
• 28:05
  to drive those things forward, right? It's just ensuring that they know again that the
• 28:10
  left hand knows what the right is doing and then all the pieces in the
• 28:16
  ecosystem are on the same page. we have other resources that kind of show the
• 28:21
  homework, if you will, of what we do. We've got a running Tasks and initiatives
• 28:27
  and campaigns that are running. We obviously leverage a project management tool to manage that
• 28:32
  internally, but anytime we are speaking with the client to give them an update on
• 28:37
  who's doing what, when, where, and why. Right, that's where a lot of those conversations
• 28:43
  happen. Many of our firms are either on some form of fireproof or EOS or
• 28:48
  have some sort of like standard cadence in which they are operating the business on.
• 28:53
  So we'll have a weekly touch base, the normal monthly reviews, plus a quarterly alignment
• 28:59
  on the big projects that we are working on. So we're we're typically because we're
• 29:04
  an extension of that leadership team, right? We are having a lot.
• 29:09
  Okay. Okay. Now selfishly gotta ask. There's gotta be a lot of data going on
• 29:13
  there. What what what are some favorite KPIs? What do you guys kind of focus
• 29:17
  on in terms of data? Ron Latz | LegalFenix (29:18) Yes, the the the the
• 29:21
  data is very often, Jack, I'm sure you you you you know about this, it's
• 29:26
  it's a struggle. first and foremost we have to get access to it. And if
• 29:30
  they don't have the permissions or the credentials to get access to it and can't
• 29:34
  delegate access to us, that's problem number one. then once we do get in there,
• 29:39
  hygiene, some better than others, right?
• 29:41
  Yep. Ron Latz | LegalFenix (29:42) And the challenge there is just you got garbage
• 29:44
  in, garbage out, now you're making decisions based off of bad data. You might be
• 29:48
  better working off of no data at that point. 'cause you might be making fine
• 29:52
  Yeah, go straight up, gut instinct. Ron Latz | LegalFenix (29:54) financial decisions based off
• 29:57
  of that information and either coming out of a market or a channel or going
• 30:02
  into one that just doesn't make sense based off of the true numbers. Right. So,
• 30:08
  What we typically are looking at here is dynamic call tracking, software data, CRM data,
• 30:13
  and then obviously individual marketing channel performance data. We do take data or look at
• 30:18
  data out of the case management or matter management tool. That's mostly due to like
• 30:24
  for the PI firms that we are working with to try to get verger settlement
• 30:29
  numbers, because in their CRMs, they're typically just putting an estimated case value. We can
• 30:34
  at least, you know, project or build out what like the full funnel works with,
• 30:40
  what the feat of the firm is going to be, take into account their yield
• 30:45
  or their take to try to identify and model out what this is going to
• 30:51
  look like. But, you know, at its most elementary level, we look at a blended
• 30:56
  scorecard so we can understand all channels: inbound, referral, digital, traditional. what our average cost
• 31:01
  per lead is, what our average cost per qualified opportunity or wanted lead is, and
• 31:07
  then what our blended acquisition costs are. Okay.
• 31:10
  Night. Ron Latz | LegalFenix (31:11) And then in between each of those sales stages,
• 31:15
  depending upon what your sales stages look like. We would look at the conversion rates
• 31:20
  between them. So just total raw leads to qualified leads to sign cases. And that
• 31:26
  gives us conversion rates of qualified to wanted. I'm I'm sorry, qualified and wanted to
• 31:31
  sign case. So those, you know, not looking at individual channels are the some of
• 31:37
  the primary business metrics that we are monitoring on a month to month, quarter over
• 31:42
  quarter, year over year basis. So we can at least give our insights to the
• 31:47
  client about what's working, what's not, and what do we actually do about it.
• 31:53
  I love it, man. I love the data driven approach. I love the centralization you
• 31:55
  got going on too. let me hit you with some scrappy versus sophisticated sort of
• 31:58
  a lightning round here. how do you Ron Latz | LegalFenix (32:01) Yeah.
• 32:01
  feel about websites that are dot net? Ron Latz | LegalFenix (32:06) I mean it
• 32:04
  doesn't really bother me. Sure, if you want.net,
• 32:07
  Okay. All right. Ron Latz | LegalFenix (32:09) dot io, dot AI, whatever it is,
• 32:11
  if you can get you can get the dot com, I go with the dot
• 32:15
  com, but the this day and age, your your HubSot is a central location for
• 32:20
  people to to to land on. It it's it's a home base, but it kinda
• 32:24
  hubs and spokes to all your other social profiles, your directory profiles, all of that
• 32:29
  stuff. So
• 32:30
  Okay. Okay. do you ever do anything where you're like, yeah, totally hundred percent confident
• 32:33
  we can definitely do that, absolutely, but you've never actually done it. You're just very
• 32:37
  confident that you'll be able to do it on the first try. Ron Latz |
• 32:40
  LegalFenix (32:40) No, I will disclaim that that I have not done it, but I
• 32:44
  will let them know that I am confident in the ability to do it. But
• 32:48
  no. I would always rather tell someone I have no idea, but I'll go get
• 32:51
  the
• 32:52
  Okay. Ron Latz | LegalFenix (32:53) answer for you, or I'll point you in the
• 32:55
  right direction. But I just think that that gets you into too much hot water.
• 32:59
  Fair, okay, all right, pretty good. any any clients early on, or I guess any
• 33:03
  clients at any point where you're like, All right, this'll be it pretty easy money,
• 33:07
  easy gig, easy whatever, high value for them and all that good stuff. But then
• 33:11
  that client ends up seriously losing you money. Ron Latz | LegalFenix (33:15) Yeah, there's
• 33:15
  been a couple. Mispriced,
• 33:17
  Yep. Ron Latz | LegalFenix (33:19) misscoped. do you think you set proper expectations? but
• 33:22
  some you know, people hear what they want to hear. that's gonna happen, right? But
• 33:27
  I've been in the space long enough, I think, to identify some red flags, also
• 33:32
  just avoid some of the landmines, but I don't bat a thousand. And in those
• 33:37
  instances where we find that we don't believe that we are able to deliver. as
• 33:42
  much value or there is that friction. We have an adult and professional conversation about
• 33:47
  the misalignment. And if we determine that things just weren't gonna work out, then we
• 33:52
  try then we try to part ways amicably.
• 33:55
  There you go. All right. Pretty sophisticated. I like it. do you play the credit
• 33:59
  card timing game where you wait till tomorrow to charge something? Because that's next month's
• 34:03
  statement. Ron Latz | LegalFenix (34:04) No, I don't do that. I'm I'm one of
• 34:07
  those guys. I don't know if ya I mean I just like I pay my
• 34:12
  credit card more than once a month.
• 34:14
  interesting. Ron Latz | LegalFenix (34:14) I do. P I personally, I mean maybe I
• 34:17
  don't do that as I don't I probably don't do that as frequently with the
• 34:21
  business. But yeah, you know, we go back to those college days of hungry men,
• 34:24
  right? Like that was the that was the first and I'll tell you Jack the
• 34:28
  last time I will ever put myself in any type of credit card debt.
• 34:32
  Nice. Okay. Ron Latz | LegalFenix (34:32) Right. So no, clear it out, keep the
• 34:35
  credit score high. That's it.
• 34:37
  Okay, all right, pretty good. Ever gotten a review from a family member? Ron Latz
• 34:42
  | LegalFenix (34:42) No. My
• 34:44
  Okay. Ron Latz | LegalFenix (34:44) f my family? Nah. No. I I I I
• 34:49
  sometimes joke and tag my wife on LinkedIn because like she'll never see it and
• 34:55
  then trying to you know, get my parents or anybody like that on social. that's
• 35:00
  that's a comedy of errors, I'll tell ya.
• 35:04
  I'm sure. all right, back to the family, the early days. did you ever collect
• 35:09
  anything as a kid? Ron Latz | LegalFenix (35:12) I mean as a k as
• 35:14
  a kid, yeah, pr you know, baseball cards. you know, as I was if you
• 35:19
  remember POGs.
• 35:20
  Yeah, wow, yeah. Ron Latz | LegalFenix (35:25) I've got all the original fifty state
• 35:27
  quarters because both
• 35:29
  No way, you got all? Ron Latz | LegalFenix (35:31) both side like my my
• 35:33
  grandfather was a coin collector and then my mother in law Her father was also
• 35:38
  he collected coins as well. I j yeah, I did that that was just random.
• 35:43
  No, that's it. Now I got young kids and my son is just completely obsessed
• 35:48
  with everything Pokemon. So that's what we got here. So Hey, by
• 35:52
  Hey, some of us are still there, you never know. Ron Latz | LegalFenix (35:54)
• 35:56
  all means. I mean he's he's bartering, he's trading. He loves he loves it, so.
• 36:01
  How is at my brother and I would collect all the cards that we could
• 36:04
  get and binders like six inches thick, full of cards and stuff. I I don't
• 36:08
  know if either of us thought it was gonna make us rich. It certainly hasn't,
• 36:11
  but that was like kind of that Ron Latz | LegalFenix (36:14) One.
• 36:15
  that goal of like maybe one day, you never know. Did you ever have that
• 36:17
  with any of the happies? Ron Latz | LegalFenix (36:17) Yeah, hold on to Hold
• 36:19
  on.
• 36:20
  Yeah. What was the first job? Ron Latz | LegalFenix (36:26) Technically. I mean my
• 36:24
  first first job when I was like twelve or thirteen, I was a a concession
• 36:29
  stand attendant and umpire for Little League. Like whatever it was, twelve, thirteen? Like Yeah.
• 36:34
  I mean it was only
• 36:36
  You were umping at twelve? Okay. Still. That's awesome. Ron Latz | LegalFenix (36:43) bases
• 36:40
  and then you could start doing you know, I wasn't behind the plate and it
• 36:45
  pictured
• 36:46
  Yeah. Ron Latz | LegalFenix (36:47) like those like it was young kids. but that
• 36:51
  was probably the first job where I was getting like a a a paycheck. And
• 36:57
  then throughout college throughout high school and then college. I work for a mortgage comp
• 37:03
  mortgage company helping them just like administratively like do like help with closings. And then
• 37:08
  I work my best friend, his father owns a wire mesh fabrication and erection company
• 37:14
  where they build cages to protect like data centers, storage tenant lockers, window guards, and
• 37:20
  things like that. So me and him would be on the weaving table, we would
• 37:26
  weave, you know, four, six, eight plus gauge wires. Someone else would weld it all
• 37:31
  together and then me and him we'd throw it in the truck and we'd go
• 37:37
  install it. And I did that through all college.
• 37:41
  Interesting. Okay. all right, that's a that's a smattering of experiences. Do you ever get
• 37:44
  paid from any Ron Latz | LegalFenix (37:46) Okay.
• 37:46
  of the band gigs? Ron Latz | LegalFenix (37:49) No.
• 37:49
  No. Okay. Ron Latz | LegalFenix (37:52) No, not a single one, man. I mean
• 37:53
  y you know, you you and I mean at at that stage we we would've
• 37:57
  we would've we would've paid to play.
• 37:59
  Yeah. Ron Latz | LegalFenix (38:00) you get whatever cut back from tickets that you
• 38:03
  sell or the merch that we sold, but like you're never making anything on it.
• 38:07
  That's just like you gotta play until everyone knows who you are. Very difficult way
• 38:11
  of breaking in and and and making money.
• 38:14
  Okay. Ron Latz | LegalFenix (38:15) After I had parted ways, they did eventually get
• 38:18
  signed to a smaller indie label, did like a, you know, couple tours, and unfortunately
• 38:23
  Okay. Ron Latz | LegalFenix (38:24) it just it it it fizzled it fizzled apart
• 38:26
  a few short months later.
• 38:28
  Okay. Ron Latz | LegalFenix (38:29) I had our I was I had already parted
• 38:33
  ways. I wasn't able to keep up with it, keep up with like recording and
• 38:38
  sessions and all that stuff, so but still close with the guys.
• 38:42
  Nice. Okay, good. Good, good, good. did you have to unlearn anything from your parents?
• 38:46
  I know they weren't necessarily entrepreneurial, but teaching and insurance stuff, there's a dash of
• 38:50
  that sort of entrepreneurial spirit, at least in the teaching side. Ron Latz | LegalFenix
• 38:55
  (38:58) You know, it's just like a lot of the lessons that you don't appreciate
• 38:59
  growing up that you
• 39:01
  Okay. Ron Latz | LegalFenix (39:02) should have learned previously, now they have now they
• 39:06
  are learned.
• 39:07
  Yeah. Ron Latz | LegalFenix (39:06) I think that also happens when you become a
• 39:10
  a parent and you don't realize how much, you know, they they they do I
• 39:13
  I when I became a parent, Jack, I couldn't be more grateful and appreciative, you
• 39:16
  know, for my folks and what they did and the fact that my, you know,
• 39:19
  my father didn't just throw me down a hill, right? Like it was you
• 39:22
  Yeah. Ron Latz | LegalFenix (39:24) you really do appreciate it. So it's probably more
• 39:26
  so the things that they were trying to instill upon me then that I was
• 39:31
  naive and just immature and didn't accept it, that I now understand and know that
• 39:36
  wow. Right? They they they were right. They were right. So I've got no problem
• 39:41
  telling them that now.
• 39:43
  Okay. All right. Take me inside the office. How many monitors are on the desk?
• 39:49
  Ron Latz | LegalFenix (39:50) Three. Three.
• 39:52
  wow. Okay. Are they all the same make and model? Ron Latz | LegalFenix (39:55)
• 39:55
  They are not. It's just because I've got the stand for the laptop, which goes
• 39:59
  right here. And then I have two Dell, I don't even remember what they are,
• 40:03
  2045s. I forget what
• 40:04
  Okay. Ron Latz | LegalFenix (40:05) the model is, but you know, two in front
• 40:08
  of me, and I've considered consolidating down to just like one. But yeah, it works
• 40:12
  for me right now. I don't feel like uninstalling it and getting all my wire
• 40:16
  management done right now, so I'm not gonna get the other one.
• 40:20
  I that is the next question. Is it all in a docking station or just
• 40:23
  random wires everywhere? Okay. Ron Latz | LegalFenix (40:24) No, it's very neat and all
• 40:27
  in a dock it's it's completely hidden from anything else out there. I've got an
• 40:31
  uplift desk so they have like basically like cargo storage in the back of a
• 40:34
  trunk that you can kinda hide it all in there. So it wouldn't be as
• 40:38
  organized as it would be if I didn't have that blocker. But no, no one
• 40:42
  else can see the chaos that is with within that and neither can I, so
• 40:46
  it works for me.
• 40:47
  There you go, okay. anything really unique or like the most unique thing in your
• 40:54
  office? Any any trinkets, any client gifts, trophies? Ron Latz | LegalFenix (41:01) I've got
• 41:02
  the 1980s Micah Ruzioni miracle goal
• 41:05
  Nice. Ron Latz | LegalFenix (41:05) up right here. when I was like a young
• 41:10
  kid, my dad, I forget where he went, but he brought back a like a
• 41:15
  crocodile head. I have like a little small crocodile head there.
• 41:19
  Okay. Ron Latz | LegalFenix (41:22) trying to like, what else do I have here
• 41:22
  that would be weird?
• 41:24
  it seems like a pretty tidy office. Ron Latz | LegalFenix (41:27) Yeah, yeah, I'm
• 41:28
  I'm it's it's gotta be neat, it's gotta be clean, it's all organized, like yes,
• 41:33
  I can tell if anybody shifted anything on my desk.
• 41:36
  Okay. All right. Maybe one of the last ones. Ron Latz | LegalFenix (41:39) I
• 41:39
  know I got a whiteboard over here that the kids just completely demolish and graffiti
• 41:42
  all over it, but it's cool. So I leave all their stuff there.
• 41:45
  There you go. Okay. All right. have you ever used two previously already used dryer
• 41:49
  sheets instead of one new dryer sheet? Yeah. Yep. Ron Latz | LegalFenix (41:54) yeah.
• 41:54
  I played hockey. I played hockey. I would throw those sheets into my bag. Not
• 41:59
  like
• 42:00
  Yep, same. I still do that. Ron Latz | LegalFenix (42:03) yeah, it's a great
• 42:03
  hack. It is, but
• 42:05
  Yeah. Keeps everything a little fresh. Ron Latz | LegalFenix (42:08) nothing'll nothing will get
• 42:09
  those gloves or skates to smell good though. Yeah. Never.
• 42:12
  Never. Never never never. you ever use clean Tupperware instead of a bowl because you're
• 42:16
  already out of bowls. Ron Latz | LegalFenix (42:18) Like just eat right out of
• 42:21
  the Tupperware? Yeah.
• 42:22
  All right. Okay. Ron Latz | LegalFenix (42:23) have you have you not?
• 42:25
  No, I mean like so if all the bowls are dirty and you have a
• 42:29
  clean tupperware that doesn't have anything in it, you're gonna make some cereal in the
• 42:33
  Tupperware. Ron Latz | LegalFenix (42:38) See like I was thinking like if there was
• 42:38
  no clean bowls and like unless I was gonna have ice cream, I would just
• 42:42
  eat right out of the ice cream carton. but putting it into a Tupperware I
• 42:47
  mean I've ha I feel like I've had to have done it. I don't feel
• 42:51
  I don't you know, but I can think of something off the top right now.
• 42:56
  It's fair, that's fair. Ron Latz | LegalFenix (42:58) But definitely like leftovers that were
• 43:00
  already in there. Yeah, no no doubt.
• 43:02
  Okay. If you if you order delivery, do you take the food out of the
• 43:05
  container and plate it or do you leave it in? Ron Latz | LegalFenix (43:10)
• 43:09
  I keep it in, my wife takes it out for the kids.
• 43:13
  Okay. I mean this is this is the full duality of man. Complete scrappiness in
• 43:17
  so many ways, but utter sophistication across the board, really. Ron Latz | LegalFenix (43:23)
• 43:22
  That's more of the best part about ordering out is you didn't have to cook
• 43:26
  and the cleanup is so easy. So just, you know,
• 43:30
  Yeah. Ron Latz | LegalFenix (43:31) rinse them out, recycle the bit like and I'm
• 43:33
  just gonna eat right out of that.
• 43:35
  Yep, it's efficient. It's one less dish. It's great. Ron Latz | LegalFenix (43:37) It
• 43:38
  is, it is, it is.
• 43:40
  I love it, man. Ron Latz, Legal Phoenix, a foot in both worlds. A lot
• 43:44
  of scrappiness, but also a lot of sophistication. thank you so much for coming on,
• 43:48
  Ron. Anything you want the folks out there to know? Anything you want to promote?
• 43:52
  Ron Latz | LegalFenix (43:55) Hey, if you've got trouble figuring out what's working, what's
• 43:56
  not working, if you don't know if you've got the right fit partners, or you're
• 44:01
  just looking for an independent and neutral perspective on how your marketing's going, check us
• 44:05
  out at legalphoenix.com. I also share and give away as much as I possibly can
• 44:09
  on LinkedIn. So by all means, check that out or sign up for the newsletter.
• 44:13
  You get a weekly drop. But I appreciate it, Jack. This is a lot of
• 44:17
  fun, very different, and hopefully we can do it again soon.
• 44:21
  Awesome, Ron. I appreciate you coming on, man. Thanks so much for listening, everybody, and
• 44:27
  stay data driven.