Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / Mystery of Cape Cod killer & victim Christa Worthington

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Mystery of Cape Cod killer & victim Christa Worthington · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

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  Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace on Sirius x M Triumph
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  Speaker 1: Channel one thirty two. The murder that rocked a beautiful
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  Speaker 1: seaside town on Cape Code. Fifteen years ago, forty secure
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  Speaker 1: old Christa Worthington's, an accomplished fashion writer, was found murdered
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  Speaker 1: in her rural home. She was stabbed through the chest.
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  Speaker 1: Her two and a half year old daughter, Ava was
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  Speaker 1: found unharmed near the body. She had taken her a
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  Speaker 1: sippy cup and tried to feed her mother, and she's
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  Speaker 1: trying to wake her mother up. The Cape had never
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  Speaker 1: seen witnessed an event like this ever we started in
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  Speaker 1: and upcoming. Serious questions remain about how police handled the
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  Speaker 1: case and if they got the right man. A two
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  Speaker 1: year old little girl was discovered with her mom's dead body.
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  Speaker 1: This is a case I will never get as long
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  Speaker 1: as I live. These facts of a two year old
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  Speaker 1: little girl there with her mother's cold, dead body. And
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  Speaker 1: now more questions arise in the murder of Christa Worthington.
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  Speaker 1: I may I see Grace, this is Crime Stories. Thank
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  Speaker 1: you for being with us. I want to go straight
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  Speaker 1: out to John Limley, Crime online dot Com investigative reporter.
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  Speaker 1: I want to start, not with the brand new questions
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  Speaker 1: about the murder of Christa Worthington's and how it came
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  Speaker 1: to be in this exclusive area of Cape Cod there
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  Speaker 1: in Truro, Massachusetts, that a little two year old girl
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  Speaker 1: was there beside her mom's bloody body, cold and dead
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  Speaker 1: in the floor. I want to start at the beginning,
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  Speaker 1: not the new questions, but take me back to the
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  Speaker 1: day her body was discovered, and I'm tall king about
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  Speaker 1: a gorgeous young mom, Krista Worthington. John Linley tell me, yes,
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  Speaker 1: Krista absolutely gorgeous and so talented when it came to writing.
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  Speaker 1: She was a fashion writer for some of the top magazines,
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  Speaker 1: of l being one of them. Now, Nancy, this has
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  Speaker 1: all the makings of an Agatha Christie murder mystery. Only
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  Speaker 1: this is real life and has real life uh tragedy
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  Speaker 1: uh and consequences. Uh. Let's first set the scene. Truro is,
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  Speaker 1: as you've said, a town in Massachusetts on the Cape
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  Speaker 1: Cape Cod. If you know anything about the Cape, you
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  Speaker 1: may be aware that the tip is Provincetown. The cape
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  Speaker 1: sort of looks like a flexed arm, So if Provincetown
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  Speaker 1: is the clinched fist. Truro is the wrist. Truro is
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  Speaker 1: filled with unspoiled natural beauty, beaches, high sandy cliffs on
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  Speaker 1: the ocean side. Uh, there's a beautiful lighthouse there. And
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  Speaker 1: of the joys in Truro is exploring all of the
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  Speaker 1: back roads, discovering small beaches and quaint properties that are
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  Speaker 1: dotted all along. Now, this is during the summer. During
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  Speaker 1: the winter, it's a ghost town. And this is the
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  Speaker 1: time of year we're talking about. It was January six,
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  Speaker 1: a bitterly cold winter day, and this former fashion writer,
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  Speaker 1: Krista Worthington is found stabbed to death in her Cape
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  Speaker 1: Cod house Don John Limley. An important fact we learned
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  Speaker 1: from the nine one one call. Now we learn John
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  Speaker 1: Limley that Krista Worthington is stabbed so forcefully that the knife,
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  Speaker 1: the blade of the knife nicked the floor absolutely. And
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  Speaker 1: the little baby girl is there with mommy's dead body,
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  Speaker 1: trying to nurse, trying to nurse Christ's breast when she
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  Speaker 1: was found. Take a listen and let's see what we
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  Speaker 1: can learn from the nine one one call recorded. Where
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  Speaker 1: are they? Okay, what the problem? It's Christ the Worthy,
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  Speaker 1: but I don't know what happened. I think she fell down.
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  Speaker 1: I'm sure she did. I think she did. Okay, it
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  Speaker 1: is nobody there. I just I'm a friend and I
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  Speaker 1: just put through a tily a fresh fight to it
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  Speaker 1: right on a three year old daughter with the thing
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  Speaker 1: on her body. Okay, I'll better right, Thank you. Back
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  Speaker 1: to you, John Limley. Let's go through the rest of
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  Speaker 1: what we know. How was her body found? Well, the
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  Speaker 1: body was found by a former boyfriend. Will discover in
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  Speaker 1: due course that there is more than one former boyfriend
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  Speaker 1: in the story. Tim Arnold uh was an author who
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  Speaker 1: wrote a number of books, including a children's book, a
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  Speaker 1: rather disturbing children book called The Winter Mythen's. Arnold and
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  Speaker 1: Worthington dated for about a year, but then even after that,
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  Speaker 1: he continued to help her take care of little Ava,
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  Speaker 1: the little the little girl after their relationship ended. Now
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  Speaker 1: it was Arnold who discovered Worthington's body at her home
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  Speaker 1: and called police. Hold on just a moment, John Limley
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  Speaker 1: joining me crime online dot Com investigative reporter along with
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  Speaker 1: Dr Bethany Marshall, very well known psychoanalysts joining us out
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  Speaker 1: of l A and crime scene expert. The director of
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  Speaker 1: the Cold case Institute Cheryl McCollum, to see right there.
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  Speaker 1: Cheryl assumed police would first suspect the person that found her,
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  Speaker 1: the ex lover. Absolutely, you're gonna, you know, narrow that
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  Speaker 1: circle right there on him, no doubt about it. He's there,
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  Speaker 1: he can put himself at the crime scene. Um. The
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  Speaker 1: now one one call though, helps him out a lot.
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  Speaker 1: I mean, he found a straw, he found upset. Um.
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  Speaker 1: He introduces the victim, immediately says who she is, and
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  Speaker 1: then he says, I'm not sure what happened to her,
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  Speaker 1: if she fall or whatever. So if that helps well, Also,
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  Speaker 1: we know I want to get your analysis of the
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  Speaker 1: crime scene, Cheryl, but we also know and John Limley
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  Speaker 1: correct me if I'm wrong, but her cell phone was
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  Speaker 1: left on the kitchen counter with one digit punched in nine,
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  Speaker 1: as if she were trying to call nine oneyl The
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  Speaker 1: crime scene is very telling, Nancy. The doors kicked in,
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  Speaker 1: but before you get to the door, there's longings outside,
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  Speaker 1: there's some glasses, there's some socks, there's a beret a hat. Um,
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  Speaker 1: So it looks like there was an issue outside. Looks
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  Speaker 1: like she might have tried to run in the house,
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  Speaker 1: locked the door and called her help, and the doors
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  Speaker 1: violently kicked in. You can see a lot of damage
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  Speaker 1: on that door, and then again the result of the
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  Speaker 1: world on the outside of the door. Yeah, I mean
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  Speaker 1: the wait a minute, tell me again, and I agree
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  Speaker 1: with you, by the way, but I want Bethany and
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  Speaker 1: Limley and Alegic to hear your reasoning as to why
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  Speaker 1: you think some sort of confrontation started outside. Items are
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  Speaker 1: thrown about there, scattered in the yard. And again the
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  Speaker 1: way the door is kicked in would leave you to
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  Speaker 1: say the door was locked, dead bolted, And on top
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  Speaker 1: of that you have her trying to call down one one,
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  Speaker 1: so she knew there was an issue um prior to
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  Speaker 1: someone gaining entry. Now, when you look at the door,
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  Speaker 1: the door frame itself is damaged greatly, So it's really
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  Speaker 1: imperative to understand to get a door like that open.
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  Speaker 1: I mean, these old houses in Cape Cod, they're sturdy
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  Speaker 1: there wrong, So you're talking about somebody having to kick
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  Speaker 1: probably Northern you know, more than one time to get
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  Speaker 1: that door open and then get to her. So she
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  Speaker 1: wasn't able to do much except get to the phone
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  Speaker 1: and punched the one number in. But her stab wound
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  Speaker 1: there's one, but like you've already said, it went all
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  Speaker 1: the way through her and was able to penetrate the floor.
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  Speaker 1: So the fourth of what was done to her in
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  Speaker 1: that moment um horrific violence sank. Well, you know, Krista
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  Speaker 1: Worthington is nobody's idiot. Christa fouled dead in her true Row,
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  Speaker 1: Massachusetts home, bitter cold outside. It was January six. She
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  Speaker 1: grew up as an only child in Massachusetts with her father,
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  Speaker 1: Toppy Worthingtons, and the mother, Gloria. She went to Vassar College.
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  Speaker 1: I mean, you know, you gotta be smart to get
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  Speaker 1: into Vassar, and the years following that she became a
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  Speaker 1: very well known fashion writer working for Woman's Wear Daily.
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  Speaker 1: You know, uh. She also worked for New York Times
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  Speaker 1: in L magazine, also with some other international publications. But
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  Speaker 1: Sheryl McCaw all, hum, you just can't like walk into
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  Speaker 1: Women's Wear Daily or the New York Times or Vassar
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  Speaker 1: College and say, hey, I want to work here. It
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  Speaker 1: doesn't work like that. You know. I would have loved
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  Speaker 1: to have gone to Vassar, but they weren't gonna have it.
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  Speaker 1: So again you're talking about no, they were not interested
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  Speaker 1: in us no offense to them. That Um, okay, you
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  Speaker 1: know what, I'll stay with Mercer and n y U
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  Speaker 1: and call it a day. Okay, Vassar, you know I
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  Speaker 1: don't have a chance of that. But this, this Kusta
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  Speaker 1: Worthington was no idiot. Now back to the baby baby Ava.
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  Speaker 1: Do we know John Linley who's the dad of baby Ava? Yes,
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  Speaker 1: we do. Indeed, that is Anthony Jacket. He's known as
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  Speaker 1: Tony Jacket. Uh. He's a man that's quite popular, very
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  Speaker 1: well known around Provincetown and Truro. In fact, he's known
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  Speaker 1: as the Shellfish Constable. It was his job to enforce
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  Speaker 1: fishing laws and make sure fisherman had the proper And
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  Speaker 1: that's a big deal there because in Truro that's what
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  Speaker 1: they're known for. They're known for their shell fishing, you know,
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  Speaker 1: like you go to certain areas in the Northeast for
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  Speaker 1: their lobster. Okay, that's when the first things that happened
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  Speaker 1: when I went Dr Bethany and you were with me
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  Speaker 1: on the airways when I first started Court TV, I
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  Speaker 1: got taken out all up and down Long Island looking
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  Speaker 1: for lobster. Okay, so apparently, uh, nobody thought the lobster
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  Speaker 1: we had in Georgia was the real thing. Okay, so anyway,
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  Speaker 1: but I will say that it was darn good and
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  Speaker 1: that that's the thing about Truro. It's known for shell fishing,
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  Speaker 1: quiet beaches, beautiful scenery, very pristine. So he kind of
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  Speaker 1: had a big job there. He was the shellfish constable. Now,
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  Speaker 1: earlier I heard John Limey say, and I didn't really
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  Speaker 1: like the way he said it that she had had
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  Speaker 1: several boyfriends. Well, who hasn't, So just throw me in
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  Speaker 1: that hot So there you go. God to Bethany the baby.
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  Speaker 1: The baby is still nursing, nursing the mom's breast and
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  Speaker 1: she's lying there cold and dead. I just pray to
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  Speaker 1: God the baby has no memory of this. What do
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  Speaker 1: you think about embedded child memories. I think the baby
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  Speaker 1: does have memories of this, and the memories could be
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  Speaker 1: what we call in my field pre conscious and pre verbal,
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  Speaker 1: meaning that the baby, who's now a little older, may
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  Speaker 1: not have an actual visual image of another lying on
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  Speaker 1: the floor with the stab wound, but may have a
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  Speaker 1: sense of something bad having happened. And we know with
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  Speaker 1: PTSD there are there's often recurrent intrusive thoughts a terrifying images.
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  Speaker 1: So even if baby Eva doesn't have that clear recollection,
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  Speaker 1: if something happens like there's a noise or she sees
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  Speaker 1: an image on TV or watches a scary movie, there
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  Speaker 1: could be an intrusive sense of some bad happening, a
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  Speaker 1: sense of dread, a sense of foreboding. But it can
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  Speaker 1: just be unformed and not clearly linked to the past.
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  Speaker 1: I want to make a comment about the boyfriends, because
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  Speaker 1: you were sort of laughing about how she had all
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  Speaker 1: these boyfriends. I wasn't laughing. I wasn't laughing. I was
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  Speaker 1: laughing about me having all the Okay, you know what,
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  Speaker 1: can I just say no offense to you guys, But
• 12:31
  Speaker 1: thank god I married David Lynch. He is a saint. Okay,
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  Speaker 1: he helps me with the children. My mom has moved
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  Speaker 1: in with us after my dad passed away. He is
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  Speaker 1: a saint. And I also have with me Bethany. I
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  Speaker 1: think I told you this. My nephew is building a
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  Speaker 1: house with his new wife and their baby, and they
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  Speaker 1: have also moved him and they have a cat and
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  Speaker 1: a dog. I have a cat and a dog. And
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  Speaker 1: Lucy got to guinea pigs for her birthday, so this
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  Speaker 1: house is rocking. Can I tell you that that's defible
• 13:05
  Speaker 1: new TV show for you? But the rooting Abbey and Chloe,
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  Speaker 1: the guinea pigs who fight incessantly all night a long.
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  Speaker 1: Let me tell you, the only time I see my
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  Speaker 1: husband was passing Anti in the trash. So maybe that's
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  Speaker 1: a good thing. But what I'm saying, he's a saint,
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  Speaker 1: and there's not a darn thing wrong with having a
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  Speaker 1: paraded boyfriends. That's what it took to make me realize
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  Speaker 1: he was the one. Okay you wanted to say mathany Okay.
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  Speaker 1: What I was saying is that she had very cohesive
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  Speaker 1: relationships with the men she dated. One of her ex boyfriends,
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  Speaker 1: the one who discovered the body, actually was helping her
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  Speaker 1: raise baby Eva, the shellfish constable Tony Jacket. She had
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  Speaker 1: a very cohesive relationship with him after that affair ended.
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  Speaker 1: I'm sure we'll get more into that relationship. And yet
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  Speaker 1: the perpetrator, who ever perpetrated this crime, had some violent
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  Speaker 1: encounter with her outside of the house. According to Cheryl McCollum,
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  Speaker 1: kicked in the door accosted her before she was able
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  Speaker 1: to finish daily. This was not an acquaintance rape that
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  Speaker 1: was my point. Because she had boyfriends with whom she
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  Speaker 1: was in good relationships. I can't imagine any of them
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  Speaker 1: having done this. You know what, that's a very good
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  Speaker 1: point to Cheryl McCollum. You know the fact that I
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  Speaker 1: don't mean that you're still dating or or anything like that,
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  Speaker 1: but the fact that you're on good relations with your
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  Speaker 1: ex is I think it indicates a certain stability of
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  Speaker 1: mind on your part, you know, like hateful and vengeful
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  Speaker 1: and stalking and crazy and no, it just didn't work out.
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  Speaker 1: You moved on absolutely, And a couple of them, you know,
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  Speaker 1: the men, they might have thought there's a chance to
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  Speaker 1: maybe rekindle and get back together. This seems to me,
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  Speaker 1: with the drag marks outside and the glasses and the
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  Speaker 1: hat and the socks, this looks like someone that surprised
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  Speaker 1: her outside and whatever started it started outside and led
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  Speaker 1: inside and that's where it was concluded. I want you
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  Speaker 1: to listen to this, Cheryl. Okay, we're getting a peek
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  Speaker 1: as to who Kristin Worthington was in life. Take a
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  Speaker 1: listen from our friends at ABC as they catch her
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  Speaker 1: friends discussing Kristin Worthington. Listen, Krista was the only child.
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  Speaker 1: She grew up in hang A, mass which is south
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  Speaker 1: of Boston, kind of Tony suburb. Father was Harvard educated lawyer,
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  Speaker 1: and it was a very privileged upbringing. After high school,
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  Speaker 1: Christa went to Vassard. I was a Vassar classmate of
• 15:45
  Speaker 1: Krista Worthington. Krista and I were in this English thesis class.
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  Speaker 1: Krista was someone you would know because she was so short,
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  Speaker 1: but interesting looking and pretty. She was brilliant in class
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  Speaker 1: through the first few decades of her life outside of
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: college were high fashion, high society. She began a career
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  Speaker 1: in fashion man. She actually was a bureau chief in
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  Speaker 1: Paris for Women's Wear Daily. She wrote for all the
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  Speaker 1: major magazines, Cosmo, Copper's, Bizarre, New York Times, she was
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  Speaker 1: the EL Magazine. I met Christa when we were editors
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  Speaker 1: together at EL Magazine. Probably it was kind of an
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  Speaker 1: ongoing party disguised as a publication. She interviewed people like
• 16:28
  Speaker 1: Eve sant Laurent, Martha Stewart's. She even dated Anderson Cooper's
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  Speaker 1: brother Chris's writing, Oh, she could make anything just sound
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  Speaker 1: like magic. The most boring thing in the world was
• 16:40
  Speaker 1: all of a sudden, fresh and exciting, smooth and refined
• 16:45
  Speaker 1: pro style the head scarf. The head scarf reveals as
• 16:51
  Speaker 1: it conceals. The louder the go away message, the more
• 16:55
  Speaker 1: audible the come hither. Isn't that great? I want to
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  Speaker 1: pause very briefly with those words in mind about Krista
• 17:04
  Speaker 1: Worthington's in life. It just seems so ironic that we
• 17:10
  Speaker 1: are talking about her death and her baby Ava and
• 17:14
  Speaker 1: trying to sift through the clues left behind now and
• 17:19
  Speaker 1: I hear her friends speaking so appointed lee about her.
• 17:23
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• 19:24
  Speaker 1: now straight back to Cape cod as we dissect the
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  Speaker 1: murder of this gorgeous accomplished young mother found stabbed dead
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  Speaker 1: on the floor, stabbed so violently the NiFe actually nixed
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  Speaker 1: the floor beneath her, the only digit nine dialed on
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  Speaker 1: her cell phone, as we believe she tried to call
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  Speaker 1: nine one one. As Cheryl McCullum from Coal Case Institute
• 19:52
  Speaker 1: has pointed out, this clearly started outside the door and
• 19:57
  Speaker 1: entered into the home. Her little baby girl a even
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  Speaker 1: found nursing her mom, lying cold and dead in the floor.
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  Speaker 1: But I want you to hear from a very important
• 20:09
  Speaker 1: player in this In this scenario, it's Tony Jacket, the
• 20:12
  Speaker 1: so called Shellfish Constable, one of her previous boyfriends. Listen
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  Speaker 1: to what he says. I got the door a little bit.
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  Speaker 1: I think there was a time that she asked me
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  Speaker 1: to do something up at the house, and that was
• 20:24
  Speaker 1: how when I got to be more friendly with His
• 20:28
  Speaker 1: title was shellfish constantly. He really was sort of the
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  Speaker 1: police of the fish in the area. He was good
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  Speaker 1: looking and dashing. People talk about his thick, black curly hair.
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  Speaker 1: Tony was the kind of guy that women wanted and
• 20:44
  Speaker 1: men wanted to be. Before you know it, he was
• 20:47
  Speaker 1: going over to her house for tea. I remember he
• 20:51
  Speaker 1: can go home, go home, and I lo tune to
• 20:53
  Speaker 1: write to drive with. And then of course it became
• 20:57
  Speaker 1: a little deeper. I think I got caught up in
• 21:01
  Speaker 1: the idea of a romance. It was just exciting. Ye know.
• 21:08
  Speaker 1: The thing that makes the relationship with Tony kind of
• 21:11
  Speaker 1: tricky is that he had been married for twenty seven
• 21:16
  Speaker 1: years and had six kids. If there was a sweeter
• 21:20
  Speaker 1: person on earth between the hours of eight and nine fifteen,
• 21:23
  Speaker 1: I would not believe it. Tony became tender and we
• 21:26
  Speaker 1: were made new spell bound. I love him. It's a
• 21:30
  Speaker 1: small town. You're nervous, at least aware that you know
• 21:37
  Speaker 1: you could be seen. So you know to Dr Bethany Marshall,
• 21:41
  Speaker 1: psychoanalyst joining me out of l a. Dr Bethany, you
• 21:45
  Speaker 1: know a lot of men would have been rageful at
• 21:47
  Speaker 1: that time that she announces, Hey, we're breaking up and
• 21:50
  Speaker 1: I'm pregnant. But it really truly doesn't seem to be
• 21:55
  Speaker 1: that way. No, Like I said earlier, she had very
• 21:58
  Speaker 1: cohesive relationships. What sur rises me is not only does
• 22:02
  Speaker 1: Tony Jacket have five children of his own at the
• 22:05
  Speaker 1: time of the affair, but after the affair concludes, he
• 22:10
  Speaker 1: decides to tell his wife. His wife forgives him, accepts
• 22:15
  Speaker 1: Tony back, and actually brings Christa, Worthington and Eva into
• 22:20
  Speaker 1: their family. In other words, the wife establishes good relationships
• 22:25
  Speaker 1: with Christa. So once again, you have a very stable, cohesive,
• 22:31
  Speaker 1: loving community. Like you said earlier, none of the like
• 22:34
  Speaker 1: the revenge, the anger, the stocking, all the things that
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: we hear in unstable relationships. This town really has so
• 22:43
  Speaker 1: much stability in the community. And then I go back
• 22:47
  Speaker 1: to the crime scene that Cheryl is painting for us,
• 22:50
  Speaker 1: this rageful encounter, the door being kicked in a bloodied scene,
• 22:55
  Speaker 1: you know, a knife that is plunged so forcefully into
• 22:59
  Speaker 1: che us that it actually nixed the floor. Whoever did
• 23:04
  Speaker 1: this was an outsider in this community. And by an outsider,
• 23:07
  Speaker 1: I don't mean that this person lived outside the town.
• 23:11
  Speaker 1: But I don't know that I agree with you that
• 23:13
  Speaker 1: this had to be an outsider, because you know, domestic
• 23:17
  Speaker 1: violence takes a lot of very ugly forms. But uh,
• 23:21
  Speaker 1: to Cheryl McCollum, I'm also not saying that I think
• 23:25
  Speaker 1: it's Tony Jacket, And I'm also saying that I don't
• 23:28
  Speaker 1: think it's Tim Arnold because when I hear him on
• 23:33
  Speaker 1: the nine one one call, and let me point out
• 23:36
  Speaker 1: also police first suspected him, as I would have to
• 23:40
  Speaker 1: after years and years of prosecuting and investigating. But he
• 23:43
  Speaker 1: was cleared. He was cleared by police. But I still
• 23:48
  Speaker 1: don't think you can rule out a domestic Well, Nancy,
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: I kind of agree with Dr Anthony and this one
• 23:55
  Speaker 1: in the reason is I just throw me to the walls,
• 23:59
  Speaker 1: go aheads. I refer care. Here's my reasoning. You have
• 24:05
  Speaker 1: a violent scene outside where somebody has been drugged and
• 24:09
  Speaker 1: you know article of clothing have been removed because of
• 24:12
  Speaker 1: some scuffle. Then you've got the door violently kicked in.
• 24:16
  Speaker 1: She's clearly thankfully assaulted, but only half mood and one
• 24:22
  Speaker 1: one stab wounds. If this were domestic, that would have
• 24:26
  Speaker 1: been multiple, and it would have been from the chest,
• 24:28
  Speaker 1: in the neck area or the abdomen. Here you have
• 24:31
  Speaker 1: one not even in the heart, in the lungs. So
• 24:36
  Speaker 1: to me, it does seem like somebody that she was
• 24:40
  Speaker 1: not romantically involved with for a long period of time, Okay,
• 24:44
  Speaker 1: I'm I'm kind of coming over to your side, And
• 24:47
  Speaker 1: I was not saying that it was domestic. I was
• 24:50
  Speaker 1: just saying that I wouldn't rule it out because of
• 24:54
  Speaker 1: what I see. Absolutely not go ahead and take that
• 24:59
  Speaker 1: leap of faith. But I'm going to wait on some
• 25:01
  Speaker 1: actual evidence. Okay, Um, let's go back to John Limley. Okay, then, okay,
• 25:09
  Speaker 1: we we know we've ruled out Tony Jacket, the father
• 25:11
  Speaker 1: of Ava. We know we've ruled out Tim Arnold, the
• 25:15
  Speaker 1: former boyfriend that writes the children's book that's still helping her,
• 25:20
  Speaker 1: you know, raise Ava. These guys are still in her life,
• 25:25
  Speaker 1: I think in a positive way, helping her. All right,
• 25:29
  Speaker 1: So then what happens Limly well, as you can see,
• 25:31
  Speaker 1: the list of suspects is getting longer and longer as
• 25:35
  Speaker 1: time goes by. Essentially, before all is said and done,
• 25:38
  Speaker 1: every male in the community, and at the top of
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: the list, as you've said, were these ex boyfriends, but
• 25:45
  Speaker 1: a surprising person at the top of the list. I
• 25:48
  Speaker 1: hope you're not trying to say she's slept with all
• 25:50
  Speaker 1: these guys, because that's kind of what it sounds like.
• 25:52
  Speaker 1: Oh no, no, no, And I don't need well, I
• 25:54
  Speaker 1: guess not. I don't need to dig my whole any
• 25:57
  Speaker 1: deeper you're digging. You're a great with your teeth. Okay,
• 26:02
  Speaker 1: go ahead. Well. Also at the top of the list
• 26:06
  Speaker 1: for investigators, Christa's father was even questioned in the case.
• 26:12
  Speaker 1: He question, well, uh, this seventy two year old dad
• 26:16
  Speaker 1: had been having a relationship with the twenty nine year
• 26:19
  Speaker 1: old Boston former prostitute and heroin addict. It just never ends.
• 26:25
  Speaker 1: And Krista, wait a minute, wait a minute, what what white, white,
• 26:28
  Speaker 1: white Excuse me, John Limley, Uh, Cheryl, I think you'll
• 26:31
  Speaker 1: agree with me that we need to shrink. Dr Bethany Marshall,
• 26:34
  Speaker 1: what is wrong with men? It's not that I hate them,
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: but what's a seventy nine year old man doing driving
• 26:41
  Speaker 1: into town meeting up with a twenty seven year old hooker?
• 26:46
  Speaker 1: I mean, you know what, Um, that's just wrong on
• 26:50
  Speaker 1: so many levels? What is wrong with them? Uh? Have
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: a hard time answering that one. I think the operative
• 26:57
  Speaker 1: word is hooker? Um? Maybe said, is a seventy two
• 27:04
  Speaker 1: year old man going to be able to plunge a
• 27:07
  Speaker 1: knife into a woman's chest? I mean really? And his daughter?
• 27:12
  Speaker 1: And so wait a minute, John Lmley, Hey, what did
• 27:15
  Speaker 1: they think? He was having a fight an argument with
• 27:17
  Speaker 1: Chris to over the hooker. He cares Kristin here's if
• 27:20
  Speaker 1: he has a hooker, Go go go just be mad
• 27:23
  Speaker 1: if you did. Krista was understandably a little shaken by
• 27:26
  Speaker 1: this relationship and had had a number of arguments with
• 27:30
  Speaker 1: her father about his supporting this woman. And so investigators wondered, well,
• 27:38
  Speaker 1: maybe because Christa is making such a fuss over this relationship,
• 27:42
  Speaker 1: either the dad, maybe the twenty nine year old had
• 27:46
  Speaker 1: decided to remove her from the so far fetched. But
• 27:49
  Speaker 1: you know what, Cheryl, I give an a plus to
• 27:52
  Speaker 1: the police for investigating it, because what you don't want
• 27:55
  Speaker 1: is when you do catch the real killer it comes
• 27:59
  Speaker 1: up in trial. It could have been the dad and
• 28:01
  Speaker 1: his horcer girlfriend that he's supporting. I'd be mad too.
• 28:04
  Speaker 1: My father's outspending my grandchildren's inheritance on a hooker. Hello,
• 28:09
  Speaker 1: she that hooker looks at him and all she sees
• 28:11
  Speaker 1: is a big a T M machine. So uh so
• 28:14
  Speaker 1: why not? I'm okay with her being mad at him?
• 28:17
  Speaker 1: You know what? That was one of those situations where
• 28:20
  Speaker 1: they're good time of investigating this case is being wasted
• 28:25
  Speaker 1: because she clearly did not put seminal fluid on this syctum.
• 28:31
  Speaker 1: So it's a big waste of time. Okay, there you go.
• 28:34
  Speaker 1: That is the turning point. The seminal fluid that sperm,
• 28:39
  Speaker 1: DNA possible sex possible rate John Lemley seminal fluid catch
• 28:45
  Speaker 1: me up. Yeah, this is one of the things that
• 28:48
  Speaker 1: has really kind of uh confused investigators because the seminal
• 28:53
  Speaker 1: fluid is degraded to the point, uh where you know,
• 28:58
  Speaker 1: someone that is well versed in this area of study.
• 29:02
  Speaker 1: The tails of the individual sperm had broken off, so
• 29:06
  Speaker 1: that gives you an idea that gives you the age
• 29:09
  Speaker 1: of the sperm. That gives you the age of the sperm.
• 29:12
  Speaker 1: And so they're not the first thing to break off
• 29:15
  Speaker 1: of a sperm. Think of a sperm. A sperm it
• 29:17
  Speaker 1: is zoa is looking like a shrimp, okay, or a
• 29:20
  Speaker 1: little a little tadpole with a head and a little
• 29:23
  Speaker 1: body and a tail. The first thing that breaks off
• 29:27
  Speaker 1: when it starts as time past hours past, the first
• 29:30
  Speaker 1: thing to break off is the tail. Okay, that will
• 29:33
  Speaker 1: happen what would you say, uh, would you say, Cheryl,
• 29:37
  Speaker 1: between seven and twelve hours or maybe five to twelve hours.
• 29:41
  Speaker 1: What would you say to that? I would say between
• 29:43
  Speaker 1: five twelve and then the head breaks off and then
• 29:47
  Speaker 1: the sperm totally degenerates. Although you can still get d
• 29:51
  Speaker 1: N A, you don't have the sperm intact, so all
• 29:54
  Speaker 1: is not lost just because the sperm starts to degenerate.
• 29:57
  Speaker 1: It's all degenerated by an about thirty six to seventy
• 30:01
  Speaker 1: two hours. But you can still get DNA no matter what,
• 30:06
  Speaker 1: whether it's degenerated or not. So we find sperm without
• 30:11
  Speaker 1: a tail. The only significance to that is that can
• 30:14
  Speaker 1: date the you know as hours were talking about hours
• 30:18
  Speaker 1: that the sperm got there, all right, So they find
• 30:22
  Speaker 1: seminal fluid on an inner body. The tail is gone,
• 30:26
  Speaker 1: so it's been let's just say five hours ish. It's
• 30:31
  Speaker 1: very inexact, okay, John, Then what happens well? John Linley
• 30:34
  Speaker 1: joining US Crime Online investigative contributor reporter, Go ahead, John.
• 30:39
  Speaker 1: DNA tests were conducted on really any guy that would
• 30:43
  Speaker 1: submit a sample. They even had police had stations set
• 30:47
  Speaker 1: up at at least three different restaurants around town where
• 30:51
  Speaker 1: people could come in and voluntarily have their their cheek
• 30:56
  Speaker 1: swab for DNA. Initially, there was simply no match, and
• 31:01
  Speaker 1: the killing remained unsolved for three years until there was
• 31:06
  Speaker 1: a surprise arrest. UH investigators had a DNA hit and
• 31:11
  Speaker 1: the results left really everyone stunned. What a break in
• 31:15
  Speaker 1: the case. A three years pass after Krista Worthington found
• 31:19
  Speaker 1: dead in her floor, her baby girl Eva trying to
• 31:22
  Speaker 1: nurse the mom's dead body, and d NA stations set
• 31:27
  Speaker 1: up at restaurants and other locations in town. Everybody signing
• 31:32
  Speaker 1: up to take DNA to prove they are not the
• 31:34
  Speaker 1: one that killed Krista Worthington, and then out of the blue,
• 31:37
  Speaker 1: a match. What does it prove? Quickly? Thank you to
• 31:43
  Speaker 1: our partners making our investigation into the murder of Christa
• 31:47
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• 35:52
  Speaker 1: Limley shocking match just pops up out of nowhere? Who, what, where? Why?
• 35:59
  Speaker 1: And in tell me Nancy. The match was a man
• 36:03
  Speaker 1: named Christopher McGowan. All of Christa's friends and family members
• 36:08
  Speaker 1: started asking who in the world is Christopher McGowan. No
• 36:12
  Speaker 1: one knew the name, No one knew Chris McGowan. Well,
• 36:16
  Speaker 1: it turns out that McGowan was Christa's garbage man. McGowan,
• 36:22
  Speaker 1: Worthington's former trash collector, was placed at the scene by
• 36:26
  Speaker 1: that d na UM. In a disputed statement mc gowan
• 36:30
  Speaker 1: that he gave to police, he admitted having sex with Worthington. Eventually.
• 36:36
  Speaker 1: There were a number of stories he told and uh,
• 36:39
  Speaker 1: even having a part in beating her. So that was damning,
• 36:45
  Speaker 1: to say the least. What did you say about beating her?
• 36:48
  Speaker 1: He even it admitted that he took part in beating her.
• 36:53
  Speaker 1: He so the trash collector, Chris McGowan, who was on
• 36:58
  Speaker 1: her route, says he beat her. So let me understand this.
• 37:04
  Speaker 1: So he says he beat her. He has sperm is
• 37:06
  Speaker 1: on her body and her hot mintens whatever or outside
• 37:12
  Speaker 1: the front door and all over the yard, and the
• 37:15
  Speaker 1: door is kicked in, she's covered in sperm, she's stabbed dead,
• 37:20
  Speaker 1: with her baby in the home. And he says they
• 37:22
  Speaker 1: had consensual sex. Is that my understanding? Is that correct?
• 37:25
  Speaker 1: John Lemley? It is indeed. Um. He went on to
• 37:29
  Speaker 1: blame the fatal stabbing, as I said eventually, because there
• 37:33
  Speaker 1: were a number of stories he told over time. He
• 37:36
  Speaker 1: blamed that on a friend of his, Jeremy Freremy Frasier.
• 37:41
  Speaker 1: Jeremy Frasier is a friend of Chris McGowan's, and he
• 37:44
  Speaker 1: admitted to being with McGowan at a bar on Friday,
• 37:49
  Speaker 1: two days before Christa's body was found. He stated that
• 37:54
  Speaker 1: he separated from McGowan later that night when they left
• 37:56
  Speaker 1: the bar and he stayed at a friend's house. He
• 38:00
  Speaker 1: denies he ever went into the home, and nothing in
• 38:04
  Speaker 1: the home to Cheryl McCullum indicates he was ever there.
• 38:08
  Speaker 1: No fingerprints, know anything correct, No, nothing, But Nancy, you
• 38:12
  Speaker 1: know this perpetrator does admit to having takes with her
• 38:16
  Speaker 1: on Thursday. But again to your point, when she's found
• 38:20
  Speaker 1: on Sunday, burn doing that up, No, because you've still
• 38:25
  Speaker 1: got the sperm intact, and that's where the tails the
• 38:28
  Speaker 1: body and the head of the sperm take on critical significance,
• 38:32
  Speaker 1: because the sperm or in intact minus the tail. What
• 38:35
  Speaker 1: does that say, Cheryl McCullum. And it was less than
• 38:39
  Speaker 1: no question about it, less than thirty six hours, no
• 38:42
  Speaker 1: question about it. No way. Probably probably less than that,
• 38:47
  Speaker 1: probably if only the tails were breaking off, probably less
• 38:51
  Speaker 1: than thirty six hours that the so called sex and
• 38:54
  Speaker 1: I'm doing air quotas happened because there's no doubt in
• 38:57
  Speaker 1: my mind that this was a rape and a murder.
• 39:00
  Speaker 1: But hold on, I want you to listen to the
• 39:03
  Speaker 1: very latest. Take a listen to what Chris McGowan's father
• 39:08
  Speaker 1: and others say who he was and why he's not
• 39:14
  Speaker 1: the killer and he wanted to be friends with everybody.
• 39:18
  Speaker 1: I'm Roy mccallwen um, the father of Chris mcallwyn I'm
• 39:22
  Speaker 1: saying to myself, Christopher McCowen is a player, he's not
• 39:27
  Speaker 1: a murderer. And then when I read about the knife
• 39:31
  Speaker 1: and the woman's chest stuck it so hard where we're
• 39:34
  Speaker 1: stuck to the floor, I said in the wind the
• 39:36
  Speaker 1: word that Chris Christopher loved his job. He always wanted
• 39:41
  Speaker 1: to move up when he get his own truck, and
• 39:43
  Speaker 1: he wanted to like partner with his bass. So I
• 39:46
  Speaker 1: thought that was great. I met with Chris McCowen. In
• 39:49
  Speaker 1: my mind, he was not a person capable of this
• 39:52
  Speaker 1: type of crime. There was no motive. It's a guy
• 39:54
  Speaker 1: who was a father who loved children, Chris's daughter with
• 39:58
  Speaker 1: the same age as Aba. This is not a cold, deliberate,
• 40:03
  Speaker 1: calculating person. This is not a person who had a
• 40:07
  Speaker 1: reason to do harm to another. There are a number
• 40:10
  Speaker 1: of people who don't believe that Christopher McCowen could ever
• 40:13
  Speaker 1: would have done this, and that includes his boss. They've
• 40:16
  Speaker 1: got the wrong person. This person just would not do
• 40:20
  Speaker 1: that when he would get in an argument with another
• 40:23
  Speaker 1: driver over some silly thing and Chris would just walk
• 40:27
  Speaker 1: away from it. Okay. Not only that, ABC's Sunny Huston
• 40:33
  Speaker 1: also speaks to McGowan from behind bars. I don't believe
• 40:39
  Speaker 1: a word of this. Listen Global Killing. We paid call
• 40:45
  Speaker 1: from Hi Chris. Let's go back to how this all started. Okay,
• 40:54
  Speaker 1: and the garage man, you know, I get by everybody tells,
• 41:01
  Speaker 1: you know, get to talk to them briefly. He asked
• 41:04
  Speaker 1: me to come in the house and to look at
• 41:07
  Speaker 1: the Christmas Street. Were you attracted to her? Yeah? Standing
• 41:12
  Speaker 1: close enough, consentity were heard, you know, and one thing
• 41:16
  Speaker 1: you read to another. What do you mean one thing
• 41:19
  Speaker 1: led to another. It's just it was just a mutual
• 41:22
  Speaker 1: thing between two people. Again, and we started kissing and
• 41:26
  Speaker 1: we winded up in and up having times. Were you
• 41:32
  Speaker 1: intimate with Krista the night before she was murdered? That
• 41:37
  Speaker 1: that's not his original story, wasn't, Cheryl McCollum. Nancy wasn't
• 41:41
  Speaker 1: his original story? And also the sperm was found outside
• 41:46
  Speaker 1: the body and inside of her body, so again she
• 41:48
  Speaker 1: didn't shower or anything either. Now, what is the significance
• 41:53
  Speaker 1: as this ferm is outside and inside her body? What
• 41:56
  Speaker 1: does that say to you? Again? This sounds like an
• 41:58
  Speaker 1: assault to me. This occurred on a kitchen floor where
• 42:01
  Speaker 1: her two year old right there. She's only half undressed.
• 42:04
  Speaker 1: This does not sound like a consensual romantic interlude. He
• 42:09
  Speaker 1: gives the story that you know, he's delivering or collecting
• 42:13
  Speaker 1: the trash, and she basically comes on to him. Okay,
• 42:17
  Speaker 1: only and you left out the beating, You left out
• 42:20
  Speaker 1: the beatings. We're not there yet. He only admits to
• 42:23
  Speaker 1: that later, but only in Playboy does this happen? Gentlemen
• 42:27
  Speaker 1: um that this you know, beautiful Vassar Graduated just sitting
• 42:31
  Speaker 1: on her phone poarts, waiting for you to come by
• 42:34
  Speaker 1: to collect the trash, and she just has to have
• 42:36
  Speaker 1: you write that moment, that very instant because you're just
• 42:40
  Speaker 1: so freaking attractive she can't control herself. Not ever has
• 42:45
  Speaker 1: that happened in the history of the world, gentleman. So
• 42:49
  Speaker 1: when we hear it, every woman goes m I think
• 42:53
  Speaker 1: he killed her and raped her, and all the guys
• 42:56
  Speaker 1: are saying that doesn't happen. It does. That happened. It does,
• 43:01
  Speaker 1: And I can be very firm about that. Did I
• 43:04
  Speaker 1: hear Dr Bethany Marshall chime and go ahead, Bethany, It
• 43:06
  Speaker 1: does not happen, Absolutely not. The fact this woman was
• 43:11
  Speaker 1: so polished, so sophisticated, Her writing was revered, as she said,
• 43:17
  Speaker 1: she was a Vasser graduate, she was the the Paris
• 43:22
  Speaker 1: editor of Women's Where Daily. She was so sophisticated. You know.
• 43:26
  Speaker 1: When I listened to this Chris McGowan, one of the
• 43:28
  Speaker 1: things I hear is him confessing to what he did
• 43:32
  Speaker 1: and then minimizing it. So he'll say, um, I got
• 43:37
  Speaker 1: with her instead of I raped her. I He'll say
• 43:41
  Speaker 1: he said I beat her rather than I stabbed her.
• 43:45
  Speaker 1: So everything is the minimization of the act. I think
• 43:49
  Speaker 1: it's quite significant that the semen is also on the
• 43:52
  Speaker 1: body because it speaks to the mode of the sex attack,
• 43:59
  Speaker 1: which is that it was very rageful, and what I
• 44:02
  Speaker 1: imagine might have happened is that he beat her, rendered
• 44:06
  Speaker 1: her unconscious, raped her, and then masturbated on her, and
• 44:11
  Speaker 1: then when he stabbed her through the lung. I think
• 44:13
  Speaker 1: the most horrifying part of this, besides baby Eva being
• 44:17
  Speaker 1: present for this entire sex attack, is that she must
• 44:21
  Speaker 1: have struggled for hours before she died. This is the
• 44:24
  Speaker 1: This is the sad thing to me because he didn't
• 44:26
  Speaker 1: stab her through the heart. He stabbed her through the lung.
• 44:29
  Speaker 1: So this is a very painful, torturous, long death process
• 44:34
  Speaker 1: for her. You know, he is now saying that, as
• 44:38
  Speaker 1: he elaborates quote, it was just a mutual thing between
• 44:43
  Speaker 1: two people. We started kissing and then we wind it
• 44:46
  Speaker 1: up ended up having sex, Okay, and he admits beating her,
• 44:53
  Speaker 1: And I'm just telling you, John Limley, the only reason
• 44:56
  Speaker 1: he changed his story from consensual set on Thursday night
• 45:01
  Speaker 1: to sex the night before whatever he changed it to
• 45:05
  Speaker 1: is because his defense lawyers said, forensically, Thursday nights impossible
• 45:09
  Speaker 1: because the sperm has not degraded. This just happened a
• 45:13
  Speaker 1: couple of hours before, so we gotta work on that story.
• 45:16
  Speaker 1: So he changed his story and now he's speaking from
• 45:20
  Speaker 1: behind bars, whining that he wished she had taken the stand.
• 45:25
  Speaker 1: He didn't take the stand and subject himself to cross
• 45:28
  Speaker 1: examination because he would be cut up, sliced up like
• 45:33
  Speaker 1: a Thanksgiving turkey on the stand with his lies. But oh,
• 45:36
  Speaker 1: it's okay to get on the phone with the reporter
• 45:38
  Speaker 1: and just blah blah blah blah blah and tell your
• 45:40
  Speaker 1: story without anybody stopping you and confronting you on your lies.
• 45:45
  Speaker 1: And it's not just his lies, John Limley. We've got
• 45:48
  Speaker 1: a dead mother and a child growing up without her mother,
• 45:52
  Speaker 1: and this guy's sitting on his rear end behind bars,
• 45:55
  Speaker 1: lying into a phone receiver. I don't like it, Limly right.
• 45:59
  Speaker 1: During McGowan's lawyers contended that sure his client's DNA was present,
• 46:06
  Speaker 1: but that was because of this consensual sex air quotes.
• 46:11
  Speaker 1: McGowan even admitted to beating Krista, but said that he
• 46:14
  Speaker 1: had nothing to do with her murder. In the end,
• 46:18
  Speaker 1: the jury did not buy this one bit, and McGowan
• 46:21
  Speaker 1: was found guilty of first degree murder, rape, and burglary
• 46:25
  Speaker 1: and is now serving three concurrent terms of life in prison.
• 46:31
  Speaker 1: After being found guilty, lawyers are working at this very
• 46:35
  Speaker 1: moment to try to bring this case back to trial.
• 46:40
  Speaker 1: You know what, here's my fear. Cheryl McCollum. Just as
• 46:44
  Speaker 1: we saw in the highly popular podcast serial about Uh,
• 46:50
  Speaker 1: the murder of a young girl at the hands of
• 46:52
  Speaker 1: odd non sayed, it gathered so much ground there is
• 46:57
  Speaker 1: motion for new trial activity. Um. Not only that you
• 47:01
  Speaker 1: saw making a murderer with Stephen Avery, the highly biason.
• 47:06
  Speaker 1: I covered the disappearance of Teresa Halback, the young um
• 47:11
  Speaker 1: photographer that was murdered by Stephen Avery. And he lied
• 47:15
  Speaker 1: to me to my face about what happened the hours
• 47:19
  Speaker 1: leading up to her death. I mean he lied to me.
• 47:20
  Speaker 1: Why lie to me? And then he contradicted his own
• 47:23
  Speaker 1: his own story to police. I mean he lied through
• 47:26
  Speaker 1: his teeth. That's what I'm saying is that when stories
• 47:32
  Speaker 1: are publicized and you're hearing a let me just say,
• 47:36
  Speaker 1: journalist review of what happened, you're not hearing all the
• 47:41
  Speaker 1: facts a jury heard. And what's concerning me about him
• 47:46
  Speaker 1: now saying, oh, I want any try all I should
• 47:49
  Speaker 1: have testified what it could have should have all right,
• 47:52
  Speaker 1: the evidence is overwhelming and I don't want this daughter
• 47:57
  Speaker 1: going through this again. I know what it's like to
• 48:00
  Speaker 1: be a crime victim. And that's one of the last
• 48:03
  Speaker 1: things on earth I would want is to have to
• 48:05
  Speaker 1: relive that murder trial. Well, let's just bring everybody up
• 48:09
  Speaker 1: to date. He did not testify, but he did get
• 48:13
  Speaker 1: a chance to talk to that judge. And when he
• 48:15
  Speaker 1: had his chance, he said, and I quote, I never
• 48:19
  Speaker 1: meant for this to ever take place. He didn't say
• 48:23
  Speaker 1: he didn't do it. Well, put I want to hear again, Alan,
• 48:30
  Speaker 1: Please let me hear the voices of those who loved
• 48:34
  Speaker 1: her as they describe Kristin Worthington. Krista was the only child.
• 48:40
  Speaker 1: She grew up in hang A, mass which is south
• 48:42
  Speaker 1: of Boston, kind of Tony suburb. Her father was a
• 48:45
  Speaker 1: Harvard educated lawyer and it was a very privileged upbringing.
• 48:49
  Speaker 1: After high school, Cristal went to Bastard. I was a
• 48:52
  Speaker 1: Vassar classmate of Cristin Worthington. Krista and I were in
• 48:57
  Speaker 1: this English thesis class. Crista was someone you would know
• 49:01
  Speaker 1: because she was so short, but interesting looking and pretty.
• 49:05
  Speaker 1: She was brilliant in class. She began a career in
• 49:07
  Speaker 1: fashion man She actually was a bureau chief in Paris
• 49:10
  Speaker 1: for Women's Wear Daily. She wrote for all the major magazines, Cosmo, Harper's, Bizarre,
• 49:15
  Speaker 1: New York Times, she was the El Magazine. She interviewed
• 49:19
  Speaker 1: people like Eve Sant Laurent, Martha Stewart's. She even dated
• 49:22
  Speaker 1: Anderson Cooper's brother, Chris is writing, Oh, she could make
• 49:26
  Speaker 1: anything to sound like magic. The most boring thing in
• 49:30
  Speaker 1: the world was all of a sudden, fresh and exciting.
• 49:34
  Speaker 1: Let me ask you, John Limley, where is baby Ava
• 49:39
  Speaker 1: as I've always called her? Where is she now? She
• 49:43
  Speaker 1: has been living with a dear friend of Christia's now
• 49:48
  Speaker 1: for the vast majority of her life. She's eighteen. Friends
• 49:53
  Speaker 1: say that she is well adjusted, she's a freshman in college.
• 49:58
  Speaker 1: That on the surf us you'd never know that she
• 50:02
  Speaker 1: had gone through this well. Investigators think she was with
• 50:08
  Speaker 1: her her mom's dead body for about thirty six hours
• 50:12
  Speaker 1: by the time uh she was discovered. That's a lot
• 50:15
  Speaker 1: to go through two and a half years old or not.
• 50:19
  Speaker 1: But for her to be um just the stable young
• 50:23
  Speaker 1: woman that she appears to be is nothing short of
• 50:26
  Speaker 1: a miracle. You know that is a miracle. Dr Bethany.
• 50:30
  Speaker 1: A lot of crime victims put on a happy face,
• 50:35
  Speaker 1: but inside the knowledge that your mother was raped and
• 50:40
  Speaker 1: murdered and that you were found sitting by her dead
• 50:43
  Speaker 1: body in the floor. Is a baby, I mean, I don't.
• 50:51
  Speaker 1: I don't think that will ever go away to imagine. No,
• 50:54
  Speaker 1: you can't because Nancy. No one can replace one's mother.
• 50:59
  Speaker 1: I mean, your mother is the one who loves you,
• 51:02
  Speaker 1: who has your best interests at stake, who is very foundational,
• 51:06
  Speaker 1: provides what we call in my field, that secure base
• 51:10
  Speaker 1: um which you can always go back to and from
• 51:13
  Speaker 1: which you can go back out into the world, and
• 51:16
  Speaker 1: nobody else can replace that. But on the other hand, people,
• 51:20
  Speaker 1: human beings are resilient, and that's what I want your
• 51:22
  Speaker 1: listeners to know that no matter what happens to them
• 51:26
  Speaker 1: in their lives, even if their crime victims or they
• 51:28
  Speaker 1: suffer trauma, that the human spirit is quite resilient. And
• 51:33
  Speaker 1: the most therapeutic thing that one can do after being
• 51:36
  Speaker 1: a victim or the most therapeutic thing that could take
• 51:39
  Speaker 1: place for baby Ava is to have secure relationships throughout
• 51:43
  Speaker 1: her life and ended so secure relationships that are healing
• 51:47
  Speaker 1: in our therapeutic I pray that what John Lenley has
• 51:52
  Speaker 1: told us is true. I pray that Ava is happy
• 51:56
  Speaker 1: and healthy, in doing well and surrounding I love, and
• 52:01
  Speaker 1: that her mother is watching over her every single minute
• 52:05
  Speaker 1: of every single day. Nancy Grace Crime Story signing off
• 52:10
  Speaker 1: goodbye friend,