Latest / Pod Save America / Scranton Joe vs. Park Ave Trump

Transcript

Scranton Joe vs. Park Ave Trump · Pod Save America

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Thank you.
• 0:20
  Speaker 2: Welcome to Pod Save America. I'm Jon Favreau.
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: I'm Dan Pfeiffer.
• 0:23
  Speaker 2: On today's show, Joe Biden tries to make the race
• 0:25
  Speaker 2: a contest between Scranton and Park Ave. The Pennsylvania Senate
• 0:28
  Speaker 2: race is set between Bob Casey and another out-of-state rich
• 0:32
  Speaker 2: guy who says dumb shit. And later, George Stephanopoulos talks
• 0:36
  Speaker 2: to Dan about covering 2024 in his new book full
• 0:39
  Speaker 2: of untold stories about the White House Situation Room. But first, Dan,
• 0:44
  Speaker 2: Donald Trump doesn't seem to be having much fun in
• 0:46
  Speaker 2: his criminal trial.
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: He doesn't?
• 0:48
  Speaker 2: No, he's not having fun.
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: Unlike all those other people who have fun at their
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: criminal trials.
• 0:51
  Speaker 2: He's complaining that the court isn't allowing his supporters to
• 0:54
  Speaker 2: protest outside, which isn't true. It's just that less than
• 0:58
  Speaker 2: a dozen have showed up. He's complaining that the courtroom
• 1:01
  Speaker 2: is too cold, that he has to sit up straight
• 1:03
  Speaker 2: for too long. And mostly he's complaining about his gag order,
• 1:06
  Speaker 2: which he seems to have violated multiple times, though we
• 1:09
  Speaker 2: are waiting for a ruling on that from Judge Mershon,
• 1:12
  Speaker 2: which could come at any moment. Trump also had to
• 1:15
  Speaker 2: sit through testimony from the prosecution's first witness. former National
• 1:18
  Speaker 2: Enquirer publisher David Pecker, who testified that he personally spoke
• 1:22
  Speaker 2: to Trump and Michael Cohen about a catch-and-kill scheme where
• 1:26
  Speaker 2: Trump would pay Pecker to bury political damaging stories about
• 1:30
  Speaker 2: him and publish politically damaging and often false stories about
• 1:34
  Speaker 2: his opponents. Trump's defense is that he didn't know about
• 1:37
  Speaker 2: any of this and didn't have any affairs. But you
• 1:41
  Speaker 2: know what? Our boy Mitt Romney isn't buying it.
• 1:44
  Speaker 3: I think everybody has made their own assessment of President
• 1:46
  Speaker 3: Trump's character and As far as I know, you don't
• 1:49
  Speaker 3: pay someone $ 130, 000 not to have sex with you.
• 1:53
  Speaker 2: Wow, Mitt Romney.
• 1:55
  Speaker 1: There are a lot of jokes. I will make none
• 1:57
  Speaker 1: of them.
• 1:57
  Speaker 2: I was going to say, I'm not going to make
• 2:00
  Speaker 2: any of them either. But the first time I saw
• 2:02
  Speaker 2: that clip, I was like, oh, okay. All right. I
• 2:05
  Speaker 2: didn't expect that coming at the end. Let's start with
• 2:07
  Speaker 2: opening statements, which the jury heard on Monday. Prosecution argued
• 2:11
  Speaker 2: that Trump committed election fraud, pure and simple. accused him
• 2:15
  Speaker 2: of orchestrating a criminal conspiracy to corrupt the 2016 election.
• 2:19
  Speaker 2: Trump's lawyer argued that Trump really did reimburse Michael Cohen
• 2:23
  Speaker 2: for legal expenses and that there was nothing illegal about
• 2:26
  Speaker 2: Cohen's payment to Stormy Daniels, nor is there anything wrong
• 2:29
  Speaker 2: with trying to influence an election. He said, quote, it's
• 2:33
  Speaker 2: called democracy. Dan, what'd you think of the opening statements?
• 2:36
  Speaker 1: Well, John, I've heard enough and he's definitely guilty. Totally
• 2:41
  Speaker 1: impartial juror right here. I should have my merch on
• 2:44
  Speaker 1: right now. I actually thought the opening statements were a
• 2:47
  Speaker 1: very interesting window into the– not just the legal strategies
• 2:52
  Speaker 1: but the political messaging strategies of both sides, right? From
• 2:55
  Speaker 1: the perspective of the prosecution or the people trying to
• 2:57
  Speaker 1: defeat Donald Trump, there's clearly an effort to try to
• 3:00
  Speaker 1: make this incident which happened eight years ago about originally
• 3:05
  Speaker 1: personal conduct to make it matter to voters now, right?
• 3:08
  Speaker 1: Like why should you care? Why is this more than
• 3:10
  Speaker 1: just something Donald Trump did to hide up a personal misconduct?
• 3:15
  Speaker 1: for the defense is an effort to take what the
• 3:18
  Speaker 1: prosecution is alleging to be a major criminal conspiracy and
• 3:20
  Speaker 1: make it essentially a paperwork error that would never be
• 3:23
  Speaker 1: prosecuted were it not for that paperwork error being committed
• 3:26
  Speaker 1: on Donald Trump's behalf, right? This is a political effort
• 3:29
  Speaker 1: and both sides are trying to– and you can see
• 3:32
  Speaker 1: the challenge of making this falsifying business records to say
• 3:36
  Speaker 1: that it really was an effort to interfere in the
• 3:39
  Speaker 1: election to hide things from voters. Like That requires a
• 3:42
  Speaker 1: logical leap for jurors and voters. And for the defense side,
• 3:46
  Speaker 1: we'll get into some of the very compelling testimony you've
• 3:48
  Speaker 1: heard already, but you can see how this fits very
• 3:54
  Speaker 1: well with Donald Trump's narrative of victimization. And you can
• 3:57
  Speaker 1: see a couple of jurors who are pretty skeptical of
• 4:00
  Speaker 1: political institutions and law enforcement and government buying that argument.
• 4:03
  Speaker 1: So I thought it was a real interesting window into
• 4:06
  Speaker 1: how they're thinking about the case. And this is one
• 4:07
  Speaker 1: of those rare times where the legal strategy and the
• 4:09
  Speaker 1: political strategy is, I think, aligned.
• 4:11
  Speaker 2: I do think I noticed in the prosecution's opening statement,
• 4:16
  Speaker 2: you know, they did preview a lot of hard evidence
• 4:20
  Speaker 2: that there's going to be a tape of Trump telling
• 4:23
  Speaker 2: Michael Cohen to pay off Karen McDougal, who's the playboy
• 4:25
  Speaker 2: model that he allegedly had an affair with for a year, which,
• 4:30
  Speaker 2: of course, would make it hard for Trump to say
• 4:32
  Speaker 2: that Michael Cohen is just a liar who's acting on
• 4:35
  Speaker 2: his own. Um, and so I do think that they will,
• 4:39
  Speaker 2: they definitely signaled that they have a lot of evidence
• 4:41
  Speaker 2: beyond just, they know that like relying solely on Michael Cohen, uh,
• 4:46
  Speaker 2: and his testimony is probably not going to get them
• 4:49
  Speaker 2: all the way there. So I think that it was
• 4:51
  Speaker 2: interesting that they were previewing that they had, uh, other
• 4:53
  Speaker 2: evidence to, that they're going to, um, introduce. And then
• 4:56
  Speaker 2: I thought it was interesting that Trump's lawyers, like the
• 4:59
  Speaker 2: challenge that all of Trump's lawyers have is that he
• 5:02
  Speaker 2: doesn't want them to tell even a little bit of truth.
• 5:05
  Speaker 2: About that he did anything wrong, you know, and so
• 5:07
  Speaker 2: you could imagine a defense attorney saying like, sure, he
• 5:12
  Speaker 2: was involved in this catch and kill scheme and sure
• 5:15
  Speaker 2: he was doing this, but like. you know, he just,
• 5:17
  Speaker 2: he had no idea about the business records and everything
• 5:19
  Speaker 2: else he did was wrong. But like the defense has
• 5:21
  Speaker 2: to be like, oh no, Donald Trump is perfect in
• 5:23
  Speaker 2: every way. And he was shocked, shocked when he found
• 5:26
  Speaker 2: out that Michael Cohen was committing crimes behind his back.
• 5:30
  Speaker 2: It's just not, it's just not believable to most people.
• 5:34
  Speaker 2: But you kind of have to do it to keep
• 5:36
  Speaker 2: the client happy. Yeah.
• 5:37
  Speaker 1: The people would believe the idea that Donald Trump is
• 5:40
  Speaker 1: not a details guy. We got really in the weeds
• 5:42
  Speaker 1: of how they were doing it. But as you're right,
• 5:44
  Speaker 1: you can't, He will not accept any fallibility on any issue.
• 5:47
  Speaker 1: And that has been his political downfall in many, many instances.
• 5:51
  Speaker 2: I will say to your point about the victimhood narrative,
• 5:55
  Speaker 2: I think they might be overplaying their hand on that one.
• 5:58
  Speaker 2: Trump's pollster told Mark Caputo of The Bulwark, this is
• 6:03
  Speaker 2: more about exposing Biden's real motives to lock up his
• 6:05
  Speaker 2: political opponent. The key is taking a really bad situation
• 6:08
  Speaker 2: and turning it into an opportunity to help win the election.
• 6:10
  Speaker 2: Biden and his supporters are intent on making Trump the
• 6:13
  Speaker 2: Nelson Mandela of America. That Nelson Mandela line from Trump,
• 6:17
  Speaker 2: that wasn't just like, you know, he like threw off
• 6:20
  Speaker 2: the line into truth. This is now his, his pollsters
• 6:22
  Speaker 2: using this line. I mean, do we think turning Trump
• 6:26
  Speaker 2: into the Nelson Mandela of America? Do we think that's,
• 6:28
  Speaker 2: do you think people are going to buy that?
• 6:29
  Speaker 1: I mean, being Trump's pollster is a lot like being
• 6:33
  Speaker 1: Trump's lawyer, which is you can't do the smart things.
• 6:35
  Speaker 1: You have to do the things your dumb client tells
• 6:37
  Speaker 1: you to do.
• 6:38
  Speaker 2: Unbelievable. So let's talk about David Pecker's testimony. He was
• 6:42
  Speaker 2: quite explicit about the catch-and-kill scheme, and the prosecutors shared
• 6:46
  Speaker 2: some of the National Enquirer headlines that America's Nelson Mandela
• 6:51
  Speaker 2: essentially bought. Here's a few. Ted Cruz shamed by porn star.
• 6:57
  Speaker 2: Another one, Ted Cruz sex scandal, five secret mistresses. Not believable.
• 7:03
  Speaker 2: And also, shady lady who could ruin Marco Rubio. There
• 7:07
  Speaker 2: was also a headline about Ben Carson leaving his sponge
• 7:12
  Speaker 2: in someone's brain because he's a brain surgeon after surgery. Believable.
• 7:16
  Speaker 1: Absolutely believable.
• 7:18
  Speaker 2: And there was one about, there was also a, the
• 7:20
  Speaker 2: whole conspiracy that Trump spread about Ted Cruz's dad killing JFK.
• 7:28
  Speaker 2: Pecker admitted on the stand that the National Enquirer didn't
• 7:31
  Speaker 2: just like run the story and it was a fake story.
• 7:33
  Speaker 2: They had a fake picture of Ted Cruz's dad and
• 7:37
  Speaker 2: um lee harvey oswald and he admitted that they just
• 7:41
  Speaker 2: they just faked the whole picture they just put them
• 7:43
  Speaker 2: together and copy pasted them it's just like this is
• 7:46
  Speaker 2: what the prosecution is trying to do here which is
• 7:48
  Speaker 2: to get away from the either this is just personal
• 7:50
  Speaker 2: sex stuff or this is just some business records and
• 7:54
  Speaker 2: paperwork issues this was a presidential campaign that was working
• 8:00
  Speaker 2: and directing a major media company to just be its
• 8:03
  Speaker 2: propaganda arm for an entire campaign and then hiding it
• 8:06
  Speaker 2: from people. I mean, that does seem like more of
• 8:09
  Speaker 2: a conspiracy than just like a hush money payment and
• 8:12
  Speaker 2: business records.
• 8:14
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Donald Trump working with a major media outlet as
• 8:18
  Speaker 1: he serves as his propaganda arm Hmm. Let me think.
• 8:23
  Speaker 1: Any of those on cable, perchance?
• 8:25
  Speaker 2: I was going to say, well, they just they were
• 8:27
  Speaker 2: just held liable for quite a bit of money for
• 8:29
  Speaker 2: doing that kind of thing. You know, Fox News, of course,
• 8:32
  Speaker 2: for those who are not following Dan. So what did
• 8:36
  Speaker 2: you make of Pecker's testimony? And most importantly, for political purposes,
• 8:40
  Speaker 2: how it was covered?
• 8:42
  Speaker 1: I understand the legal strategy behind it. It was quite revealing.
• 8:46
  Speaker 1: It does very quickly get this beyond a paperwork error,
• 8:49
  Speaker 1: just simply under Trump's sort of convoluted explanation, filing something
• 8:54
  Speaker 1: legal expenses that shouldn't have been legal. There's clearly a
• 8:58
  Speaker 1: concerted conspiracy here that goes well beyond this specific instance.
• 9:02
  Speaker 1: And all of those things help prove why this was
• 9:04
  Speaker 1: not a mistake. So I agree with all that. I
• 9:06
  Speaker 1: thought it was... I mean, you could not ask for
• 9:10
  Speaker 1: a story better... design for media coverage in this day
• 9:14
  Speaker 1: and age than Donald Trump working with the National Enquirer
• 9:16
  Speaker 1: to put up a bunch of disinformation. That is that.
• 9:19
  Speaker 1: I don't know from a political perspective that people are
• 9:23
  Speaker 1: going to hear this and be shocked that Donald Trump
• 9:27
  Speaker 1: was working with the National Enquirer, a journalistic institution which
• 9:30
  Speaker 1: most people hold in very high esteem to you know,
• 9:34
  Speaker 1: to plant stories about Ted Cruz.
• 9:36
  Speaker 2: They did break the Edwards affair and were correct.
• 9:39
  Speaker 1: You know, broken clock, right? It's like if you accuse
• 9:42
  Speaker 1: every politician of having an affair, eventually you're going to
• 9:45
  Speaker 1: find one. They lost some credibility by alleging that people
• 9:48
  Speaker 1: wanted to have sex with Ted Cruz. Like that was
• 9:49
  Speaker 1: not believable.
• 9:51
  Speaker 2: Five secret mistresses? At least go with like one to two.
• 9:56
  Speaker 1: So I think this matters more in the legal, case
• 10:00
  Speaker 1: than it does politically. Just ultimately, and this is something
• 10:04
  Speaker 1: I've been thinking more and more about as this trial
• 10:06
  Speaker 1: has gone on, is that while a conviction could be
• 10:09
  Speaker 1: very meaningful, more revelations and evidence that Donald Trump is
• 10:13
  Speaker 1: a crook is not particularly decisive in this election. That's
• 10:16
  Speaker 1: kind of already priced into the baseline in how voters
• 10:19
  Speaker 1: see him.
• 10:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I tend to agree with that. I do think
• 10:21
  Speaker 2: that the, from a legal standpoint, you know, you start
• 10:24
  Speaker 2: with your most important witness and it's clear they started
• 10:27
  Speaker 2: with Pecker because they wanted to lay the groundwork for
• 10:29
  Speaker 2: the conspiracy. It is quite compelling that there was an
• 10:32
  Speaker 2: actual meeting with Pecker and Trump and Cohen in 15,
• 10:37
  Speaker 2: which means you're not just relying on Michael Cohen. Now
• 10:39
  Speaker 2: you're relying on David Pecker's testimony as well. They started
• 10:42
  Speaker 2: the scheme there. They paid off McDougal. They paid off
• 10:45
  Speaker 2: a doorman who said that Trump had a child with
• 10:48
  Speaker 2: a mistress and And that story turned out not to
• 10:50
  Speaker 2: be true, but they paid to kill it anyway. And then,
• 10:53
  Speaker 2: of course, there was the Stormy Daniel one, which Pecker
• 10:55
  Speaker 2: was like, we're not, I'm not, I'm not paying to
• 10:58
  Speaker 2: kill this one because you didn't reimburse me for the
• 11:00
  Speaker 2: other ones yet.
• 11:01
  Speaker 1: Which is so funny.
• 11:03
  Speaker 2: Which is so, which is very believable, by the way.
• 11:06
  Speaker 2: So clearly, you know, laying the groundwork that Trump knew
• 11:09
  Speaker 2: this was going on. This was the plan all along. Also,
• 11:12
  Speaker 2: Pecker testified that he witnessed Trump handling accounts payable paperwork
• 11:16
  Speaker 2: like the kind that are at issue here. personally signing
• 11:19
  Speaker 2: checks after reviewing the attached documentation, which I think is
• 11:23
  Speaker 2: also very helpful for the falsifying business records because you're like, oh,
• 11:27
  Speaker 2: he's not a details guy. But here he is, like
• 11:29
  Speaker 2: looking through contracts, signing his name. So, you know, that's
• 11:33
  Speaker 2: that's probably helpful to the prosecution. There was also a
• 11:36
  Speaker 2: separate hearing on Tuesday about Trump potentially violating his gag order.
• 11:43
  Speaker 2: Our old friend Norm Eisen wrote that he thinks Judge
• 11:46
  Speaker 2: Mershon will almost certainly hold Trump in contempt. Trump and
• 11:50
  Speaker 2: his allies seem convinced that complaining about this gag order
• 11:53
  Speaker 2: can help Trump politically. Are they right or have they
• 11:56
  Speaker 2: spent too much time on truth social?
• 12:00
  Speaker 1: Truth social. I think there is, as we stipulate, none
• 12:05
  Speaker 1: of us went to law school here. None of us
• 12:06
  Speaker 1: are practice attorneys, but I do speak English. And based
• 12:12
  Speaker 1: on that, I can promise you that Donald Trump violated
• 12:15
  Speaker 1: the judge's orders on multiple occasions. That is without question.
• 12:19
  Speaker 1: He obviously did it. He did it with impunity. And
• 12:23
  Speaker 1: so I'll be very interested to see what the penalty is.
• 12:25
  Speaker 1: I hope it's more than the $ 1, 000 or whatever it
• 12:28
  Speaker 1: is per violation that was talked about previously. In terms
• 12:33
  Speaker 1: of the political merits of this, I'm being gagged argument,
• 12:37
  Speaker 1: it would be more believable if he was not delivering
• 12:39
  Speaker 1: this argument at a press conference held on live cable television.
• 12:42
  Speaker 2: Every day. Every day. Multiple times a day. And then
• 12:46
  Speaker 2: truthing up a storm all day long when he's not
• 12:49
  Speaker 2: in court.
• 12:49
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 12:50
  Speaker 1: The other part of this is, and I think this
• 12:52
  Speaker 1: speaks to some of the bigger political challenges for Trump
• 12:55
  Speaker 1: in this trial, is that in 2016, when Donald Trump won,
• 13:01
  Speaker 1: We've talked about this before, but his message was, I
• 13:04
  Speaker 1: am an asshole on your behalf. You are the victim, right?
• 13:06
  Speaker 1: There's a lot of idiocy and red herrings and just
• 13:09
  Speaker 1: a bunch of absurdity with all things Trump. But at
• 13:10
  Speaker 1: its core, he was going to be your asshole. He
• 13:13
  Speaker 1: was going to fight for you. And then when we
• 13:15
  Speaker 1: got to 2020, all of his grievances were about himself, right?
• 13:19
  Speaker 1: People were mean to him. He's fighting with celebrities. He
• 13:23
  Speaker 1: just made it all about himself and he lost. And
• 13:25
  Speaker 1: I think for most of this campaign thus far, he's
• 13:28
  Speaker 1: been pretty disciplined– judged on the Trump scale. This is
• 13:31
  Speaker 1: not compared to any normal human, but judged for Trump.
• 13:33
  Speaker 1: He's been pretty disciplined about having more of his 2016 message, more,
• 13:37
  Speaker 1: I'm fighting for you. I'm going to take on these
• 13:39
  Speaker 1: people for you. They're coming after me because they really
• 13:41
  Speaker 1: hate you. And he has kind of lost that since
• 13:44
  Speaker 1: the trial started. It's all about him. He looks whiny
• 13:48
  Speaker 1: and weak on a daily basis in all these press conferences.
• 13:51
  Speaker 1: The judge won't let me speak. And he's holding a
• 13:53
  Speaker 1: printouts of articles that he can't read out loud. That
• 13:57
  Speaker 1: is not why people like him. It's not as what
• 14:00
  Speaker 1: has brought some people back into his camp. It's the
• 14:03
  Speaker 1: exact behavior and demeanor that pushed people away from him
• 14:07
  Speaker 1: in 2020. I think it's been pretty bad for him.
• 14:10
  Speaker 2: You don't think that it's an effective message that he's
• 14:13
  Speaker 2: out there fighting for all the people who pay major
• 14:17
  Speaker 2: media companies to catch and kill bad stories about them,
• 14:21
  Speaker 2: about their affairs. If it can happen to him, it
• 14:24
  Speaker 2: can happen to any of them.
• 14:25
  Speaker 1: I mean, that is basically the entire populace of Waukesha County, Wisconsin.
• 14:32
  Speaker 2: Everyone's just going around looking for a media company to
• 14:34
  Speaker 2: pay to kill a story about their affairs. That's what
• 14:36
  Speaker 2: they're doing.
• 14:37
  Speaker 1: I mean, if that was the case, local journalism would
• 14:39
  Speaker 1: be doing much better.
• 14:40
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 14:43
  Speaker 2: I mean, to the point about this not really resonating
• 14:47
  Speaker 2: with a lot of people, what do you make of
• 14:49
  Speaker 2: the fact that Trump can't get a crowd to protest
• 14:52
  Speaker 2: outside the courthouse?
• 14:54
  Speaker 1: I think it's kind of emblematic of how surreal this
• 14:58
  Speaker 1: trial is that people seem pretty freaking chill about the
• 15:01
  Speaker 1: potential next president of the United States being on trial
• 15:04
  Speaker 1: with a potential jail sentence looming six months before the election.
• 15:08
  Speaker 1: It's like, no one can really.
• 15:09
  Speaker 2: Are people just that checked out of the news? Is
• 15:11
  Speaker 2: it really?
• 15:11
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it is. I really think it is.
• 15:14
  Speaker 1: It is.
• 15:15
  Speaker 2: Donald Trump, the Republican nominee for president, is sitting in
• 15:18
  Speaker 2: the courtroom facing felony charges every day. And everyone's like,
• 15:22
  Speaker 2: whether you're for him or against him, remember what I'm
• 15:24
  Speaker 2: just saying?
• 15:25
  Speaker 1: I mean, maybe, you know, there was all this discussion
• 15:28
  Speaker 1: when the latest Mission Impossible movie came out and they
• 15:31
  Speaker 1: called it part one, that people didn't go to the theaters,
• 15:33
  Speaker 1: they were just gonna wait for part two. I kind
• 15:34
  Speaker 1: of feel like people may be waiting for the better,
• 15:36
  Speaker 1: the sequels to this trial, but But in all seriousness,
• 15:39
  Speaker 1: there is something weird going on. The press is trying
• 15:43
  Speaker 1: to cover this as best they can. Cable's got every
• 15:46
  Speaker 1: lawyer in town. They're up there. The New York Times
• 15:48
  Speaker 1: is live blogging it with an entirely impossible-to-follow user experience
• 15:52
  Speaker 1: that I can't stand. People are tweeting about it, but
• 15:57
  Speaker 1: it's just– if this was happening in 2016, 2018, 2019–
• 16:04
  Speaker 1: If you went– this.
• 16:05
  Speaker 2: Is not like a– We'd be camped out in Manhattan.
• 16:08
  Speaker 1: But just like you would hear people– you would be
• 16:11
  Speaker 1: somewhere and people would talk about it. You would hear
• 16:13
  Speaker 1: someone just like, hey. And it's kind of almost fitting
• 16:16
  Speaker 1: this is happening in the context of.
• 16:19
  Speaker 3: O.J.
• 16:20
  Speaker 1: Simpson passing away a few weeks ago. This is– a
• 16:26
  Speaker 1: drop in the ocean compared to the attention that that
• 16:28
  Speaker 1: trial got. And obviously it's as much greater consequence for
• 16:31
  Speaker 1: the country. This guy could be president of the United States.
• 16:32
  Speaker 1: He was president of the United States. Even if he
• 16:34
  Speaker 1: wasn't running for president this time, if he wasn't the nominee,
• 16:37
  Speaker 1: this should be a gigantic deal. And it just feels
• 16:39
  Speaker 1: like maybe it's just technologically and culturally impossible to grab
• 16:43
  Speaker 1: the nation's attention, but the nation's attention is not grabbed
• 16:46
  Speaker 1: by this. And that is probably very good for Donald Trump,
• 16:48
  Speaker 1: presuming he doesn't end up in prison at the end
• 16:49
  Speaker 1: of it.
• 16:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah, big if. Do you think it has something to
• 16:53
  Speaker 2: do with the fact that it's just not being televised?
• 16:56
  Speaker 2: That we're just like, if people walked into stores or
• 17:01
  Speaker 2: any airports and they looked up at the TV and
• 17:03
  Speaker 2: there's Donald Trump sitting at a trial, I think that
• 17:06
  Speaker 2: would probably captivate people a lot more. We're just a
• 17:10
  Speaker 2: visual TV culture and have been for a long time.
• 17:12
  Speaker 1: But we're just not a linear TV culture.
• 17:14
  Speaker 2: We're not linear, but like, well, you'd be looking at
• 17:17
  Speaker 2: your phone. You'd be looking at your laptop. I mean, wherever, right?
• 17:19
  Speaker 2: People are watching shit on their screens and, and a
• 17:23
  Speaker 2: lot of people just aren't reading.
• 17:25
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 17:26
  Speaker 1: I mean, I think if the, if it was being televised,
• 17:29
  Speaker 1: it would, people would be, would be paying more attention
• 17:31
  Speaker 1: because you would, there would be just the clips would
• 17:34
  Speaker 1: be going viral and people who were not tuning in
• 17:36
  Speaker 1: would see more stuff than just. one weird photo a
• 17:38
  Speaker 1: day and a couple of awkward press conferences. But there
• 17:42
  Speaker 1: is something going on here that is beyond just this trial.
• 17:44
  Speaker 1: And that is, I think speaks, you know, this is
• 17:47
  Speaker 1: the topic of your other podcast, one of your many
• 17:49
  Speaker 1: other podcasts, but about just how the media environment has
• 17:53
  Speaker 1: changed in pretty dramatic ways.
• 17:54
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 17:55
  Speaker 2: Joe Biden, meanwhile, has made the unorthodox decision to campaign
• 17:59
  Speaker 2: by not farting himself to sleep in a freezing courtroom.
• 18:02
  Speaker 2: Imagine that. The president was in Florida on Tuesday reminding
• 18:05
  Speaker 2: people that they can thank Donald Trump for the state's
• 18:07
  Speaker 2: abortion ban. This was after Biden's week in Pennsylvania hitting
• 18:11
  Speaker 2: Trump on the economy with a Scranton versus Park Ave message.
• 18:15
  Speaker 2: Biden got some help with that today when he won
• 18:17
  Speaker 2: the endorsement of North America's building trades unions, which CNN
• 18:21
  Speaker 2: reports will invest in an eight figure organizing program to
• 18:24
  Speaker 2: try to deliver their 250,000 members in the battlegrounds of Pennsylvania,
• 18:29
  Speaker 2: Michigan and Wisconsin. The head of the union, Sean McGarvey,
• 18:32
  Speaker 2: said of Biden, quote, It's almost like the perfect leader
• 18:35
  Speaker 2: was sent at the perfect time for working people. It's
• 18:38
  Speaker 2: quite an endorsement. And then McGarvey had this to say
• 18:41
  Speaker 2: about Donald Trump.
• 18:43
  Speaker 3: Donald Trump, he's not a good man. He's not a
• 18:46
  Speaker 3: good person. He does not care about anybody in this
• 18:50
  Speaker 3: world except Donald Trump. I can tell you that he
• 18:53
  Speaker 3: personally committed to me that he was going to get
• 18:57
  Speaker 3: our pensions fixed. He understood who was affected by these pensions.
• 19:02
  Speaker 3: He assured me, I'm the president of the United States.
• 19:04
  Speaker 3: I'll just call Mitch. I'll tell him to put it
• 19:06
  Speaker 3: in the bill. Is everybody going to love me? Everybody
• 19:09
  Speaker 3: loves me, right? Is everybody going to love me? Yes, Mr. President,
• 19:12
  Speaker 3: you fixed the pension. Everybody's going to love you. That
• 19:15
  Speaker 3: was wasted breath. There was lots of other things put
• 19:18
  Speaker 3: in that bill. There was tax cuts put in that
• 19:20
  Speaker 3: bill for rich people.
• 19:22
  Speaker 2: What I love about that hit on Donald Trump is
• 19:24
  Speaker 2: that it is so believable that as to what Donald
• 19:29
  Speaker 2: Trump's character is, right? Like there's a lot of allegations
• 19:32
  Speaker 2: of Trump where you're like, I can't tell if that's really,
• 19:34
  Speaker 2: Donald Trump saying like, I'll help you. I'm going to
• 19:37
  Speaker 2: put this in the bill. I just want to be loved.
• 19:40
  Speaker 2: And then realizing I don't give a fuck about this.
• 19:41
  Speaker 2: I'm just going to do tax cuts for rich people
• 19:43
  Speaker 2: is like so on brand for Donald Trump.
• 19:45
  Speaker 1: I mean, it's pitch perfect messaging.
• 19:48
  Speaker 2: It's great. It's like one of the better I wanted
• 19:50
  Speaker 2: to play the clip because it's like one of the
• 19:51
  Speaker 2: better attacks on Trump that I have heard. And in
• 19:56
  Speaker 2: terms of what's going to actually resonate with working class,
• 20:01
  Speaker 2: middle class voters across the country. It is.
• 20:03
  Speaker 1: It's perfect. I'm not saying Sean McGarvey is a message
• 20:05
  Speaker 1: box reader, but he gets the vibes. That's what I'm saying. Yeah.
• 20:09
  Speaker 2: I mean, I know this endorsement wasn't too surprising, but
• 20:11
  Speaker 2: McGarvey did say that his members were split fairly evenly
• 20:15
  Speaker 2: between Trump and Biden in 2020. He acknowledged that the
• 20:18
  Speaker 2: leadership of the union's probably more pro-Biden than the actual members.
• 20:22
  Speaker 2: But I do feel like this will be very helpful
• 20:24
  Speaker 2: this time around, particularly in the battleground states where they
• 20:28
  Speaker 2: have a lot of members, Pennsylvania, Michigan, and Wisconsin. What
• 20:31
  Speaker 2: do you think? Yeah, I think that's important.
• 20:32
  Speaker 1: I think people just naturally assume that most unions are
• 20:36
  Speaker 1: overwhelmingly Democratic, and That is not true. I mean, obviously,
• 20:39
  Speaker 1: the Fraternal Horror Police has endorsed Trump on multiple occasions.
• 20:44
  Speaker 1: But of the construction-related, labor-related unions, the building trade has
• 20:49
  Speaker 1: always been the most Republican. And so this is a
• 20:52
  Speaker 1: big deal for Biden. And it speaks to what I
• 20:53
  Speaker 1: think is a powerful argument for him, which he's the
• 20:56
  Speaker 1: most pro-union president in modern history. He is– and that
• 21:03
  Speaker 1: is important. Unions are more popular than they've ever been.
• 21:06
  Speaker 1: And– It also just– politics is– honestly, when you boil
• 21:10
  Speaker 1: it all down, throw us all the bullshit we talk
• 21:12
  Speaker 1: about all the time, it all really comes down to
• 21:14
  Speaker 1: is who do voters think you're fighting for? And if
• 21:16
  Speaker 1: you fight for unions, you're fighting for workers. And having
• 21:20
  Speaker 1: that– the support of unions, having that persona and that
• 21:23
  Speaker 1: knowledge that he is someone who fights for unions, having
• 21:25
  Speaker 1: gone to that picket line during the UAW strike, that
• 21:29
  Speaker 1: is all great stuff. And I think it is very
• 21:31
  Speaker 1: valuable for him as he makes the case in these
• 21:35
  Speaker 1: states like Michigan, Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, et cetera.
• 21:38
  Speaker 2: And what's important is Joe Biden being the most pro-union president.
• 21:41
  Speaker 2: It's not just about his rhetoric. It's not just about
• 21:43
  Speaker 2: the fact that he was the first president to go
• 21:44
  Speaker 2: join a picket line. I mean, just yesterday, the administration
• 21:50
  Speaker 2: banned non-compete agreements, which is huge for workers. So you
• 21:54
  Speaker 2: can't do non-competes anymore outside of executives. And they also
• 22:01
  Speaker 2: raised the threshold for overtime pay for hourly employees, which
• 22:06
  Speaker 2: is huge. So like they have delivered quite a bit
• 22:09
  Speaker 2: to working people from a union perspective and from a
• 22:12
  Speaker 2: non-union perspective too. So I want to talk a little
• 22:26
  Speaker 2: bit about this Scranton versus Park Ave message that Biden's
• 22:29
  Speaker 2: been hitting. The New York Times framed the approach in
• 22:32
  Speaker 2: a way that was scientifically designed to get a mention
• 22:35
  Speaker 2: on this podcast. Quote, can Biden make Trump seem like
• 22:39
  Speaker 2: Mitt Romney? A lot of Mitt Romney in this podcast.
• 22:41
  Speaker 2: Who knew? The piece is about whether Biden can do
• 22:46
  Speaker 2: to Trump what Obama did to Romney in 2012, which
• 22:49
  Speaker 2: was define him early Trump. as an out of touch
• 22:52
  Speaker 2: rich guy who wants to help other rich people. I
• 22:55
  Speaker 2: think Trump has proven to be a tougher target than
• 22:57
  Speaker 2: Romney on this for a host of reasons we can
• 22:59
  Speaker 2: talk about. But do you think Biden will be able
• 23:03
  Speaker 2: to pull this off?
• 23:05
  Speaker 1: I think it's the right message to do. I think
• 23:07
  Speaker 1: it is very important. I have seen polling that shows
• 23:12
  Speaker 1: that among most of the voters that Biden needs to
• 23:15
  Speaker 1: win back are voters who have become much more cynical
• 23:19
  Speaker 1: about politics since 2020. They feel like the system's not–
• 23:22
  Speaker 1: the politicians don't care about them. They care about big money.
• 23:25
  Speaker 1: They're not thinking about them. Politics doesn't work for them.
• 23:27
  Speaker 1: And so they're checking out. They're thinking of not voting
• 23:29
  Speaker 1: or voting for a third-party candidate. And one of the
• 23:32
  Speaker 1: best ways to bring those people back into Biden's camp,
• 23:36
  Speaker 1: these potential third-party voters, double haters, whatever you want to
• 23:39
  Speaker 1: call them, is to tell people about some of his
• 23:43
  Speaker 1: economic accomplishments, and the specific economic accomplishments where he is
• 23:46
  Speaker 1: taking on a powerful special interest on their behalf. And
• 23:49
  Speaker 1: the most popular one, as we've talked about before, is
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: fighting the prescription drug companies to lower prescription drug costs,
• 23:55
  Speaker 1: to cap insulin at $ 35, opposing tax cuts for additional
• 24:00
  Speaker 1: tax cuts for corporations and the rich, protecting Social Security
• 24:02
  Speaker 1: and Medicare. We also know from polling from Blueprint, we've
• 24:05
  Speaker 1: talked about before on this podcast, that working class voters– uh,
• 24:10
  Speaker 1: believe one of their biggest concerns about Donald Trump is
• 24:12
  Speaker 1: that he will give tax cuts to the rich tax
• 24:17
  Speaker 1: cuts to corporations. And so you have a message here
• 24:19
  Speaker 1: that Biden, I thought delivered quite well, that Joe Biden
• 24:21
  Speaker 1: is going to fight for working people. He has delivered
• 24:23
  Speaker 1: for them. He's going to lower your prescription drug costs.
• 24:25
  Speaker 1: He's going to lower your healthcare costs. He's going to
• 24:28
  Speaker 1: protect social security, Medicare, and he's going to fight against
• 24:30
  Speaker 1: additional tax cuts for the rich. And that like that
• 24:34
  Speaker 1: works with Trump because that is, that is not going
• 24:37
  Speaker 1: to work with everyone. But for a core slice of voters,
• 24:39
  Speaker 1: I think it's an excellent message. And it tells a
• 24:41
  Speaker 1: story about who Joe Biden is that's more important than
• 24:44
  Speaker 1: the details of the white papers that undergird those policies.
• 24:48
  Speaker 2: Yeah, Blueprint tested a bunch of economic messages from Obama
• 24:52
  Speaker 2: and Biden without telling voters who said what. And Obama's
• 24:57
  Speaker 2: 2012 messaging on the economy was the most popular. And
• 25:00
  Speaker 2: Evan Roth Smith, who's the polling director at Blueprint, said
• 25:02
  Speaker 2: that painting Trump as only looking out for the rich
• 25:06
  Speaker 2: is tests at Obama levels. So I do think it's
• 25:10
  Speaker 2: a very, it's a powerful message. And, you know, I
• 25:13
  Speaker 2: think just calling Trump rich doesn't really do it because
• 25:16
  Speaker 2: sometimes people, oh, he's rich, he's successful. Great. It really
• 25:20
  Speaker 2: is about what he's going to do when he's in
• 25:22
  Speaker 2: office and what he did do when he was in office. Again,
• 25:25
  Speaker 2: his only accomplishment, his only big legislative accomplishment when he
• 25:29
  Speaker 2: was president was passing a tax cut for the rich
• 25:32
  Speaker 2: that the rest of us are still paying for. And
• 25:33
  Speaker 2: now he wants to do another one. That's, I mean,
• 25:35
  Speaker 2: that's it. That's And I don't think you're going to
• 25:37
  Speaker 2: necessarily like I don't think Biden can. It's going to
• 25:41
  Speaker 2: be hard for Biden to overcome Trump's advantage on the
• 25:44
  Speaker 2: economy because people have these hazy memories that we've talked
• 25:48
  Speaker 2: about before of, oh, during the Trump administration, I felt
• 25:52
  Speaker 2: like I was better off. Inflation was low until, of course,
• 25:55
  Speaker 2: the pandemic hit. And so I think that's going to
• 25:58
  Speaker 2: be tough to beat. But I think you can battle
• 26:01
  Speaker 2: him to a draw or at least make the case
• 26:03
  Speaker 2: that Yeah, but he was really looking out for the
• 26:06
  Speaker 2: rich and he's going to do it again. And Joe
• 26:08
  Speaker 2: Biden's been fighting for you and will continue to do so.
• 26:11
  Speaker 1: The transition for Biden here, which I think was started
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: on this trip, is right now this is being judged
• 26:17
  Speaker 1: as four and a half years ago, right? Not four
• 26:20
  Speaker 1: years ago. It was four years ago Donald Trump would
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: be fucked. But four and a half years ago, pre-pandemic,
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: cost of eggs, cost of gas, just how you felt
• 26:26
  Speaker 1: in the world against right this exact moment. And that's
• 26:30
  Speaker 1: not a good comparison for Biden. It's not his fault.
• 26:32
  Speaker 1: It's largely Trump's fault. But it's the reality if you're
• 26:34
  Speaker 1: talking about if the focus of people's minds is on
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: cost of groceries. That is not the right comparison. The
• 26:39
  Speaker 1: better comparison is not past versus present. It's future versus future.
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: Who's going to fight for you going forward? And that
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: tax cut that Donald Trump passed in 2018 expires at
• 26:50
  Speaker 1: the end of next year. Donald Trump not only wants
• 26:52
  Speaker 1: to renew that, which is going to cost, I think,
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: somewhere north of $ 3 trillion, overwhelmingly benefit corporations and the wealthy.
• 26:58
  Speaker 1: He wants to expand it and further lower tax rates
• 27:02
  Speaker 1: for corporations. Joe Biden doesn't want to do that. He
• 27:05
  Speaker 1: wants to help working class and middle class families, right?
• 27:08
  Speaker 1: He wants to protect Social Security and Medicare. And if
• 27:10
  Speaker 1: you do Donald Trump's tax cut, the only way that
• 27:13
  Speaker 1: we will end up paying for that is to cut
• 27:14
  Speaker 1: Social Security and Medicare and repeal the Affordable Care Act.
• 27:16
  Speaker 1: So he wants to cut your Social Security, cut your Medicare,
• 27:19
  Speaker 1: make your healthcare premiums higher, all in service of paying
• 27:22
  Speaker 1: for a tax cut for rich people like Donald Trump.
• 27:25
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 27:26
  Speaker 2: No, it's a good message, and I imagine that Biden
• 27:29
  Speaker 2: will keep hitting it. Speaking of campaigning in Pennsylvania against
• 27:32
  Speaker 2: an out-of-touch rich guy, Democratic Senator Bob Casey officially has
• 27:36
  Speaker 2: his Republican opponent after last night's Pennsylvania primary. It's Republican
• 27:40
  Speaker 2: Dave McCormick, a former Wall Street hedge fund manager who
• 27:43
  Speaker 2: lives in a rented mansion in Connecticut. McCormick started his
• 27:47
  Speaker 2: campaign at an event where he responded to a question
• 27:50
  Speaker 2: about the high cost of gas by telling the voter... hey,
• 27:54
  Speaker 2: here's my wife. She's on the board of Exxon. Just like,
• 27:59
  Speaker 2: what was he thinking? Was he joking? And then just
• 28:02
  Speaker 2: last week, the Times ran a story about how McCormick's
• 28:05
  Speaker 2: claim that he grew up on a family farm is
• 28:07
  Speaker 2: a bit misleading. He actually lived in a mansion 10
• 28:10
  Speaker 2: minutes down the road because his father was a college
• 28:12
  Speaker 2: president and they merely owned the farm where his mother
• 28:16
  Speaker 2: raised Arabian horses as a hobby. How amazing is that?
• 28:21
  Speaker 2: Like what? We haven't talked about this race yet, but
• 28:25
  Speaker 2: even though it's probably not as tough as Sherrod Brown's
• 28:28
  Speaker 2: race in Ohio or John Tester's race in Montana, and
• 28:31
  Speaker 2: even though Bob Casey is a beloved Pennsylvanian and Dave
• 28:35
  Speaker 2: McCormick only owns an Arabian horse farm there, this is
• 28:38
  Speaker 2: a very competitive Senate race. How do you see this one?
• 28:41
  Speaker 2: And do you think that Casey can rerun the campaign
• 28:45
  Speaker 2: that John Fetterman ran against Dr. Oz with some success here?
• 28:50
  Speaker 1: I think this is going to be a very close race.
• 28:52
  Speaker 1: I think Bob Casey has an advantage, but there is
• 28:56
  Speaker 1: a dissonance between how close I think this race will
• 28:58
  Speaker 1: be and how critical it is to keeping the Senate majority.
• 29:01
  Speaker 1: Because there really isn't a Democratic Senate majority if we're
• 29:02
  Speaker 1: not winning in Pennsylvania. There's not a place to find
• 29:05
  Speaker 1: another Senate.
• 29:05
  Speaker 2: A lot of people are losing if Bob Casey's losing.
• 29:08
  Speaker 1: And even if we win everywhere else and Bob Casey loses,
• 29:12
  Speaker 1: we need it. We absolutely need it. And so there
• 29:13
  Speaker 1: is this dissonance between how much it's talked about and
• 29:16
  Speaker 1: how important it is. And I think we should talk
• 29:18
  Speaker 1: about it more. People need to help Bob Casey. We
• 29:20
  Speaker 1: need to focus on it. In terms of the strategy, Dr.
• 29:24
  Speaker 1: Oz was a little bit like Trump in the sense
• 29:27
  Speaker 1: that he was well-known and weird. And the Fetterman campaign
• 29:32
  Speaker 1: brilliantly took his weird, out-of-touch, rich guy stuff and made
• 29:36
  Speaker 1: him pay for it. The being from New Jersey, the
• 29:38
  Speaker 1: very famous crudité video from the grocery store, which I
• 29:43
  Speaker 1: know everyone listening to this podcast has definitely seen a
• 29:45
  Speaker 1: thousand times. But just as a purely political matter, put
• 29:49
  Speaker 1: aside social virality, just like what would work in an
• 29:53
  Speaker 1: ad or a focus group. Dave McCormick telling voters worried
• 29:56
  Speaker 1: about the high cost of gas that he's on it
• 29:59
  Speaker 1: because his wife is on the board of Exxon is 1,000
• 30:02
  Speaker 1: times worse than Dr. Oz thinking somehow that salsa goes
• 30:07
  Speaker 1: on a crudite platter, right?
• 30:10
  Speaker 2: Or like anything Mitt Romney did. I mean, it's really
• 30:12
  Speaker 2: like the Exxon thing is just so bad. It is.
• 30:16
  Speaker 1: The strategy here, it's a little from column A, a
• 30:18
  Speaker 1: little from column B. It really is the Mitt Romney
• 30:20
  Speaker 1: strategy because Dr. Oz was well-known to voters because of
• 30:23
  Speaker 1: all the time he'd spent on television. like Trump was,
• 30:25
  Speaker 1: and this is why Trump's a harder target than Romney,
• 30:27
  Speaker 1: Romney was an empty vessel to voters. They knew he
• 30:29
  Speaker 1: was rich and they knew that he was a moderate
• 30:32
  Speaker 1: governor of Massachusetts. That's all they knew about him when
• 30:35
  Speaker 1: that campaign started. McCormick, all they know, they know him
• 30:38
  Speaker 1: a little bit more because he spent a lot of
• 30:39
  Speaker 1: money running in 2022, but still a lot of the
• 30:42
  Speaker 1: ads were negative against him and it's that he's a
• 30:44
  Speaker 1: rich guy from Connecticut. And then you can fill in
• 30:46
  Speaker 1: the rest of it with arguments about who he'd helped,
• 30:50
  Speaker 1: who he'd fight for, how he's full of shit. And
• 30:52
  Speaker 1: so I think you'll see, the question is, can Bob
• 30:55
  Speaker 1: Casey turn Dave McCormick into Mitt Romney? And I think
• 30:57
  Speaker 1: the answer to that is yes.
• 30:59
  Speaker 2: I think so too. And there's also, he might not
• 31:01
  Speaker 2: give us as much fodder in terms of like him
• 31:04
  Speaker 2: being as weird as Dr. Oz or like as out
• 31:06
  Speaker 2: of touch as Dr. Oz, but I did notice that
• 31:09
  Speaker 2: he was on a, he was on a podcast right
• 31:12
  Speaker 2: after he started running where he talked about one of
• 31:16
  Speaker 2: the most popular beers in Pennsylvania is of course is Yingling.
• 31:19
  Speaker 2: And he called it Yangling.
• 31:21
  Speaker 1: I mean that, you'd have to leave the state. It
• 31:27
  Speaker 1: would be like mispronouncing.
• 31:29
  Speaker 2: It was one of the syllables was very badly pronounced,
• 31:32
  Speaker 2: which is crazy to me because like, what are you doing, man?
• 31:37
  Speaker 1: It would be like mispronouncing Dunkin' Donuts running from Massachusetts.
• 31:40
  Speaker 1: It's like that. Dunkin'? Dunkin'. Yes, I want to go
• 31:43
  Speaker 1: to Dunkin' for a coffee.
• 31:44
  Speaker 2: America runs on Dunkin'? Yeah, no. But so Casey has
• 31:48
  Speaker 2: like a mid to high single digit lead so far,
• 31:50
  Speaker 2: but again- Pennsylvania is a tough state. It's a close state.
• 31:53
  Speaker 2: It's going to be close between Biden and Trump there.
• 31:56
  Speaker 2: So go help Bob Casey. And of course, if you
• 31:58
  Speaker 2: want to donate in the Senate fund, Vote Save America
• 32:01
  Speaker 2: has a Senate fund that you can go to votesaveamerica.com
• 32:03
  Speaker 2: and check it out. Before we move on, last night
• 32:06
  Speaker 2: was the Pennsylvania primary. You have any thoughts on 155,000
• 32:09
  Speaker 2: Republicans in Pennsylvania voting for Nikki Haley after she's been
• 32:13
  Speaker 2: out of the race for 50 days?
• 32:16
  Speaker 1: Seems notable.
• 32:18
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 32:20
  Speaker 1: We've talked about this after every primary, and some of
• 32:23
  Speaker 1: these people voted for Biden 20, but just if even
• 32:27
  Speaker 1: a fraction of those people don't vote for Trump, he
• 32:31
  Speaker 1: will lose the state. There is something happening here, and
• 32:33
  Speaker 1: it may even be somewhat related to the absence of
• 32:35
  Speaker 1: protesters in Manhattan. It's just there's something going on that's
• 32:38
  Speaker 1: not getting enough attention as it relates to Trump's coalition.
• 32:41
  Speaker 1: Every time a single thing happens with Biden, the entire
• 32:44
  Speaker 1: election is viewed through Biden's weaknesses and Trump's strengths. Like
• 32:46
  Speaker 1: how is Trump keeping it all together with all of
• 32:48
  Speaker 1: these felony indictments? Look at all the love for him.
• 32:50
  Speaker 1: And it's like one person tells Nate Cohn that they
• 32:53
  Speaker 1: voted for Biden in 20 and are thinking about voting
• 32:55
  Speaker 1: for someone else now and everyone panics. Trump has a
• 32:58
  Speaker 1: huge problem with his coalition. Biden also has challenges, but
• 33:01
  Speaker 1: Trump really does. And it keeps showing up in these primaries.
• 33:05
  Speaker 1: It's not just that they didn't vote for Trump. It's
• 33:06
  Speaker 1: that they voted and voted against Trump. They went out
• 33:09
  Speaker 1: and voted. There was not really a lot of competitive.
• 33:11
  Speaker 1: There were a couple of competitive House races, one on
• 33:13
  Speaker 1: the Republican side, one with a Democratic incumbent. McCormick wasn't
• 33:16
  Speaker 1: in doubt. And so people went out for the express
• 33:19
  Speaker 1: purpose of voting against Donald Trump. And I think that's
• 33:21
  Speaker 1: just interesting. It's not an open primary first. That's important.
• 33:24
  Speaker 1: Not an open primary.
• 33:25
  Speaker 2: No, it's a closed primary. And I crunched some of
• 33:28
  Speaker 2: the numbers on this.
• 33:29
  Speaker 4: Oh, wow.
• 33:29
  Speaker 1: I know. I want to hear it.
• 33:31
  Speaker 2: Here I am. Just call me Nate. So in the
• 33:36
  Speaker 2: 2020 general election in Pennsylvania, according to the exit polls,
• 33:41
  Speaker 2: Biden got around 220,000 votes from self-identified Republicans, people who
• 33:47
  Speaker 2: I ID'd as Republicans. But keep in mind, that's a
• 33:50
  Speaker 2: presidential electorate, so a lot more votes than a primary. And,
• 33:55
  Speaker 2: you know, 155,000 Republicans voting for Nikki Haley and not Trump. Now, again,
• 33:59
  Speaker 2: some of those Republicans will vote for Trump in the
• 34:02
  Speaker 2: general election for sure. And a lot of them are
• 34:04
  Speaker 2: probably some of these 220,000 Biden voters from 2020. But
• 34:09
  Speaker 2: that's still coming out in a primary that's non-competitive to
• 34:13
  Speaker 2: do that. That's, that's something, that's something. And especially it
• 34:18
  Speaker 2: was heavily, her vote was heavily concentrated in a lot
• 34:22
  Speaker 2: of these collar counties around Philadelphia. A lot of the
• 34:26
  Speaker 2: suburbs around there that are going to probably, that usually
• 34:30
  Speaker 2: decide Pennsylvania in a general election. So, all right, before we,
• 34:34
  Speaker 2: before we go to break, a reminder that if you
• 34:36
  Speaker 2: like to freak out about polls, not me, you've got
• 34:40
  Speaker 2: to check out Dan's subscriber only pod, Polar Coaster. On
• 34:44
  Speaker 2: the latest episode, you guys looked at why voters rate
• 34:47
  Speaker 2: Trump's presidency more highly now than when it was actually happening, right?
• 34:51
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 34:52
  Speaker 1: Let me rephrase that in perhaps a more evocative way.
• 34:56
  Speaker 1: Why have so many Americans forgotten about what a shitheel
• 34:59
  Speaker 1: Donald Trump was? I pitched it as a title. It
• 35:03
  Speaker 1: didn't work.
• 35:05
  Speaker 2: Who did you talk to on this one?
• 35:07
  Speaker 1: You may know him. He's on the Zoom call now.
• 35:08
  Speaker 1: Reid Sherlin, our executive producer.
• 35:10
  Speaker 2: Reid Sherlin?
• 35:10
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 35:12
  Speaker 2: Reed Churlin is our executive producer of politics and also
• 35:15
  Speaker 2: happened to work in the White House with Dan in
• 35:17
  Speaker 2: the Obama world.
• 35:18
  Speaker 1: Huge poll nerd, Reed Churlin.
• 35:20
  Speaker 2: Huge poll nerd. That's most important. Be sure to join
• 35:23
  Speaker 2: Friends of the Pod for access at crooked.com slash friends.
• 35:26
  Speaker 2: And on the theme of Dan's wisdom, which we love
• 35:29
  Speaker 2: to talk about here, your motto, Dan, worry about everything,
• 35:32
  Speaker 2: panic about nothing. The Crooked store is now stocked with
• 35:35
  Speaker 2: new always worry, never panic stress balls, key chains, and
• 35:39
  Speaker 2: mugs to help you make it through November. Do you
• 35:42
  Speaker 2: get a cut?
• 35:44
  Speaker 1: I guess I'll find out because I'm learning about this
• 35:46
  Speaker 1: right now.
• 35:48
  Speaker 2: That's how I find out about everything in this conceit too.
• 35:52
  Speaker 1: I guess I should open, I will say, I guess
• 35:54
  Speaker 1: I should open that mug shaped box that came from
• 35:57
  Speaker 1: Crooked Media about a week ago.
• 36:01
  Speaker 2: Anyway, check them out at crooked.com slash store. And also,
• 36:04
  Speaker 2: you know, if you like Pod Save America, rate us,
• 36:06
  Speaker 2: write a review. And, you know, tell a friend. We're
• 36:08
  Speaker 2: getting close to election season. We're going to need a
• 36:11
  Speaker 2: lot of volunteers, a lot of help to go out
• 36:13
  Speaker 2: there and beat Donald Trump. So if you're enjoying Pod
• 36:17
  Speaker 2: Save America, please, you know, tell a friend to go subscribe.
• 36:21
  Speaker 2: When we come back, Dan's interview with George Stephanopoulos.
• 36:36
  Speaker 1: Joining now to discuss his forthcoming book, The Situation Room,
• 36:39
  Speaker 1: The Inside Story of Presidents in Crisis, something both of
• 36:41
  Speaker 1: us have some experience with. He's co-host of Good Morning
• 36:44
  Speaker 1: America and anchors This Week on ABC. George Stephanopoulos, welcome
• 36:47
  Speaker 1: to Pod Save America.
• 36:48
  Speaker 4: Hey, Dan. Great to be here. Thank you.
• 36:50
  Speaker 1: It's great to have you here. I have been on
• 36:52
  Speaker 1: your show before.
• 36:53
  Speaker 4: Yeah, that's right.
• 36:55
  Speaker 1: I feel that it's very interesting to be able to
• 36:57
  Speaker 1: turn the table and interview you now. So I feel
• 37:00
  Speaker 1: that is great. I'm going to get to your fascinating
• 37:03
  Speaker 1: book in a second, but I want to start with
• 37:05
  Speaker 1: This campaign we're in the middle of, and it sort
• 37:07
  Speaker 1: of pains me to say this, but this is now
• 37:11
  Speaker 1: the third presidential campaign involving Donald Trump within less than
• 37:15
  Speaker 1: a decade that we're all covering. And I'm just curious
• 37:17
  Speaker 1: how you're approaching it. Are you approaching it differently than
• 37:20
  Speaker 1: in 2016 and 2020? Just where's your mentality right now?
• 37:24
  Speaker 4: It's a very, very good question, you know, because we
• 37:28
  Speaker 4: learned a lot by how we covered 2015, 2016. I
• 37:35
  Speaker 4: think we made some improvements in 2020, but have to
• 37:38
  Speaker 4: do even better in 2024. I mean, I've probably interviewed
• 37:43
  Speaker 4: Donald Trump. It's been several years now, but I've probably
• 37:46
  Speaker 4: interviewed him about 50 times in the 2015-2016 period, 40.
• 37:54
  Speaker 4: And what I learned through that process is the normal
• 37:58
  Speaker 4: things that reporters, journalists, interviewers do don't work in this environment.
• 38:06
  Speaker 4: You know, normally, if you show that somebody's not telling
• 38:08
  Speaker 4: the truth, generally, the politician or the policymaker will stop
• 38:12
  Speaker 4: repeating the lie. That didn't happen in this case. Normally,
• 38:16
  Speaker 4: if you show that someone has been hypocritical, flip-flopped, same thing.
• 38:22
  Speaker 4: And then you combine that with his tendency to simply
• 38:28
  Speaker 4: kind of flood the zone with controversy and falsehoods It
• 38:34
  Speaker 4: makes it almost impossible to wrap your hands around it.
• 38:38
  Speaker 4: Certainly impossible to play his words. I mean, one of
• 38:41
  Speaker 4: the biggest things I've learned on my broadcasts, we don't
• 38:47
  Speaker 4: show a lot of Donald Trump because he so often
• 38:50
  Speaker 4: doesn't tell the truth. And I refuse to put on
• 38:54
  Speaker 4: a soundbite that is not true. That's a good example
• 38:59
  Speaker 4: of what we've learned from 2015, 2016. In 2015, 2016,
• 39:03
  Speaker 4: we thought the best practice was kind of a sandwich.
• 39:06
  Speaker 4: You tell the truth, you show him telling the lie,
• 39:09
  Speaker 4: and you say it was a lie. I don't even
• 39:10
  Speaker 4: think we can do that anymore. I just think we
• 39:12
  Speaker 4: just don't show it. Now, the flip side of that
• 39:15
  Speaker 4: is that there's a danger when you do that of
• 39:21
  Speaker 4: sanitizing Donald Trump by only reporting the normal things he
• 39:27
  Speaker 4: says or relatively normal things he says. It makes him
• 39:30
  Speaker 4: look like a normal candidate, which he clearly is not.
• 39:33
  Speaker 4: And then you brought up a great point a couple
• 39:36
  Speaker 4: of weeks ago in that interview with Hugh Hewitt that
• 39:40
  Speaker 4: Trump had where he accuses Biden of doing the State
• 39:43
  Speaker 4: of the Union on Coke. The world would have stopped
• 39:48
  Speaker 4: if Joe Biden had said that about Donald Trump or
• 39:51
  Speaker 4: anybody else. We didn't even cover it. Now, I can
• 39:54
  Speaker 4: go both ways on that. I can say it's a
• 39:56
  Speaker 4: mistake not to cover it, and I can say it's
• 39:59
  Speaker 4: a mistake. And I can also say, well, maybe it's
• 40:03
  Speaker 4: the right thing to do, but it shows the dilemma
• 40:06
  Speaker 4: you're dealing with all the time.
• 40:07
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't envy the decisions you guys have to
• 40:09
  Speaker 1: make because it seems both quite, like you don't, like
• 40:13
  Speaker 1: one of the lessons, not just of 2020, but of
• 40:14
  Speaker 1: January 6th is that people see what Donald Trump says
• 40:19
  Speaker 1: and enough of them believe it to take very dangerous action.
• 40:23
  Speaker 4: Well, and there's a second point to that. And this
• 40:25
  Speaker 4: is where my focus has been in the 2024 campaign,
• 40:28
  Speaker 4: particularly with interviews. I've started to focus a little bit
• 40:35
  Speaker 4: less on Donald Trump and a little bit more on
• 40:37
  Speaker 4: what I will call the enablers. And so, you know,
• 40:41
  Speaker 4: for me, I'm perfectly willing. I've done this week for
• 40:45
  Speaker 4: 25 years. I have interviewed thousands of Republicans thousands of times.
• 40:51
  Speaker 4: I have no problem doing that. It doesn't have to
• 40:54
  Speaker 4: be a partisan brawl every time. What I won't do
• 40:58
  Speaker 4: in this environment is pretend that someone who is endorsing
• 41:05
  Speaker 4: someone who inspired an insurrection, has been indicted four times,
• 41:09
  Speaker 4: is sitting down in the first criminal trial of a
• 41:10
  Speaker 4: former president. I'm not going to allow them to talk
• 41:15
  Speaker 4: about other things. Before they address those issues, if they
• 41:19
  Speaker 4: are a supporter of Donald Trump. And what it ends
• 41:21
  Speaker 4: up meaning is that often at this point, and I'm
• 41:25
  Speaker 4: perfectly fine with that, the interviews don't go beyond those issues. Right.
• 41:28
  Speaker 1: This is the Chris Sununu experience of a couple of
• 41:30
  Speaker 1: weeks ago, right?
• 41:32
  Speaker 4: Precisely. Yeah.
• 41:34
  Speaker 1: So then I guess let me ask this question. Given
• 41:37
  Speaker 1: how difficult Trump is to interview, getting that it's impossible
• 41:41
  Speaker 1: to fact check him in real time, he doesn't play,
• 41:44
  Speaker 1: as you say, he doesn't play by the same rules.
• 41:45
  Speaker 4: Well, you can't interview Donald Trump live.
• 41:48
  Speaker 1: Okay, that's my question.
• 41:49
  Speaker 4: There's no way I would do that anymore. Listen, we
• 41:54
  Speaker 4: all deal with, and you worked for a president who
• 41:58
  Speaker 4: was very good at it. I worked with a president
• 42:00
  Speaker 4: who was very pro-lex as well, you know? interviewers are
• 42:05
  Speaker 4: always working against the clock and politicians and policymakers know that.
• 42:09
  Speaker 4: And so, you know, it's always a tussle over how
• 42:11
  Speaker 4: much you can get in a set amount of time.
• 42:13
  Speaker 4: There's no way it can work with, with, with Donald Trump.
• 42:19
  Speaker 4: The only way I would do an interview, listen, I
• 42:21
  Speaker 4: don't think he's going to do it. He's suing me. Anytime,
• 42:27
  Speaker 4: anytime soon. But the only way I would do it
• 42:30
  Speaker 4: is if there was, I would say at least an hour,
• 42:34
  Speaker 4: and I had full ability to edit it.
• 42:36
  Speaker 1: And would you think about interspersing that with fact-checking and
• 42:39
  Speaker 1: stuff like that?
• 42:41
  Speaker 4: Oh, it would be, I mean, it would, I could
• 42:44
  Speaker 4: probably make a two-hour show.
• 42:47
  Speaker 3: At least.
• 42:48
  Speaker 4: An hour-long interview with Donald Trump that I could edit,
• 42:52
  Speaker 4: but there's no way I'm just going to allow him
• 42:55
  Speaker 4: to steamroll through an interview. And, you know, we've seen
• 42:59
  Speaker 4: examples of this, and, you know, I think, I hope
• 43:02
  Speaker 4: everybody's learned the lesson that it's bad journalism to do that.
• 43:07
  Speaker 1: Speaking of Donald Trump on live national television, you have
• 43:10
  Speaker 1: hosted a presidential debate before. All of the fears, Donald
• 43:14
  Speaker 1: Trump also doesn't follow the rules in a debate. This
• 43:16
  Speaker 1: does feel to me like the first time in my
• 43:20
  Speaker 1: memory where it seems very possible that the debate won't
• 43:23
  Speaker 1: happen for various reasons.
• 43:26
  Speaker 4: I would be more surprised if it happens than if
• 43:28
  Speaker 4: it doesn't.
• 43:28
  Speaker 1: From Trump alone or from both sides?
• 43:32
  Speaker 4: Well, Trump will pretend he wants a debate, but I'm
• 43:35
  Speaker 4: not sure that's true. But also, I mean, if, you know,
• 43:40
  Speaker 4: I would love to see a debate in some fashion,
• 43:42
  Speaker 4: although I think everything I just said about live interviews
• 43:45
  Speaker 4: holds just as much for a debate. And I think
• 43:48
  Speaker 4: that's the dilemma that you face. Yes, it's a public
• 43:51
  Speaker 4: service to have a debate. In theory, I'm not sure
• 43:55
  Speaker 4: it works in this case. I mean, you're always up
• 43:58
  Speaker 4: against the clock. The longest debate would be 90 minutes.
• 44:03
  Speaker 4: And there's no way, let's face it, there's no way
• 44:06
  Speaker 4: either candidate would abide by the time restrictions. And there's
• 44:10
  Speaker 4: no way you can truly fact check in real time.
• 44:13
  Speaker 4: And I think that it automatically, I think, creates this
• 44:17
  Speaker 4: situation where there's, I mean, I would say sort of
• 44:24
  Speaker 4: a false equivalence. I mean, in my mind, and listen,
• 44:28
  Speaker 4: maybe I'm wrong. I don't think I am, but maybe
• 44:30
  Speaker 4: I'm wrong. In my mind, before you address anything else
• 44:35
  Speaker 4: with this presidential campaign, you have to address the criminal element,
• 44:40
  Speaker 4: not just the trial in New York, but the classified
• 44:43
  Speaker 4: documents case and the January 6th case says. We just
• 44:46
  Speaker 4: learned today that Donald Trump is an unindicted co-conspirator in
• 44:50
  Speaker 4: the state of Michigan for the false elector cases as well.
• 44:54
  Speaker 4: And I was thinking of that as the bulletin came
• 44:56
  Speaker 4: across my email about an hour ago. I can imagine,
• 45:00
  Speaker 4: and we'll see what happens tomorrow morning, but I was
• 45:03
  Speaker 4: already imagining the debates, and I shouldn't put it in
• 45:07
  Speaker 4: terms of debate. I was already imagining what it would
• 45:12
  Speaker 4: be like to get that in the show tomorrow morning
• 45:14
  Speaker 4: and having some people think, oh, well, what's new about that?
• 45:18
  Speaker 4: What's new is the fact that he's an unindicted co-conspirator. Again,
• 45:22
  Speaker 4: if this were anybody else at any other time in
• 45:25
  Speaker 4: any other presidential election campaign, that fact alone, which is
• 45:29
  Speaker 4: barely a blip on the radar today, would be massive
• 45:33
  Speaker 4: front page news. And we can't pretend that it's not.
• 45:37
  Speaker 1: I mean, there's so much going on here because there
• 45:39
  Speaker 1: is a sense that Trump is almost winning by numbing
• 45:43
  Speaker 1: us to every pass outrage. And then there's also just
• 45:47
  Speaker 1: a change in the media environment that it's very hard to,
• 45:51
  Speaker 1: like Jon Favreau and I were just discussing in the
• 45:53
  Speaker 1: earlier part of this podcast, how it feels like, I mean,
• 45:56
  Speaker 1: this trial should be the OJ trial on steroids, right?
• 45:59
  Speaker 1: In terms of national consequence, this trial in Manhattan is
• 46:02
  Speaker 1: exponentially more important than the OJ trial, right?
• 46:06
  Speaker 4: And that's the proper use of the word.
• 46:08
  Speaker 1: Exponential, by the way.
• 46:09
  Speaker 4: Thank you.
• 46:10
  Speaker 2: Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
• 46:12
  Speaker 1: And yet it doesn't feel that way, like on both sides, right?
• 46:15
  Speaker 1: Like you guys are covering it. You're doing the, you
• 46:17
  Speaker 1: kind of cover it. It's leading the news, but I
• 46:19
  Speaker 1: don't think I've walked into a coffee shop or in
• 46:22
  Speaker 1: the grocery line and heard other people talking about it
• 46:24
  Speaker 1: in the way. I mean, you know, I skipped class
• 46:27
  Speaker 1: to watch the OJ verdict and that's, you know, and
• 46:30
  Speaker 1: everyone did.
• 46:30
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 46:30
  Speaker 1: And this is just, there's just something going on here
• 46:33
  Speaker 1: that is just very I think part of it's the
• 46:35
  Speaker 1: media environment, part of it's Trump that is advantaging him,
• 46:38
  Speaker 1: I think, in some way through.
• 46:39
  Speaker 4: All of this stuff. It will be interesting to see.
• 46:42
  Speaker 4: I was actually in the White House during the O.J. verdict.
• 46:45
  Speaker 4: We had four days of meetings ahead of the verdict
• 46:49
  Speaker 4: preparing for violence. I don't remember the exact statistic, but
• 46:54
  Speaker 4: it was something about how the cell phone traffic completely
• 46:59
  Speaker 4: cratered in the five minutes once he had said, You know,
• 47:03
  Speaker 4: the jury is finished, about to hear the version. America, stop.
• 47:08
  Speaker 4: But to your point, the same thing should happen when
• 47:11
  Speaker 4: the jury is called back in this trial.
• 47:14
  Speaker 1: I'm just not sure. I'm not sure it will. I
• 47:15
  Speaker 1: want to pivot to your book because I think it's fascinating.
• 47:18
  Speaker 1: And I think it actually is a very helpful way
• 47:20
  Speaker 1: of understanding this election because, you know, but I want
• 47:23
  Speaker 1: to start with one thing. So you are possibly one
• 47:26
  Speaker 1: of the busiest people in all of media. You host
• 47:28
  Speaker 1: a morning show, which means you don't sleep. Then on
• 47:30
  Speaker 1: one of your days off, you host a Sunday show.
• 47:32
  Speaker 4: I go to bed early.
• 47:34
  Speaker 1: What time does your alarm clock go off?
• 47:38
  Speaker 4: You know what? I've been doing it for so long
• 47:40
  Speaker 4: that I set an alarm as a backup. I haven't
• 47:43
  Speaker 4: woken to an alarm in years.
• 47:45
  Speaker 1: And what time is it that you get up?
• 47:46
  Speaker 4: I wake up at almost exactly the same time every day.
• 47:50
  Speaker 4: And it's been for the last six months or so, 312.
• 47:53
  Speaker 4: So three, you wake up. My eyes pop open.
• 47:57
  Speaker 1: 312. You wake up at 312 during the week. And
• 47:59
  Speaker 1: then on Sundays, you wake up and do another show.
• 48:01
  Speaker 1: You've got a whole host of other projects. Like why
• 48:04
  Speaker 1: in God's name did you write a book? Like what
• 48:06
  Speaker 1: made you do this?
• 48:07
  Speaker 4: You know, it was a very good question. And I
• 48:10
  Speaker 4: haven't written a book since my memoir, All Too Human,
• 48:12
  Speaker 4: which came out in 1999. And I've thought about it
• 48:16
  Speaker 4: many times. I actually started a book many, many years ago.
• 48:21
  Speaker 4: And each time I had an internal standard. for myself.
• 48:26
  Speaker 4: And I don't want to cast aspersions on any of
• 48:30
  Speaker 4: my colleagues in the journalism world, but one bar for
• 48:34
  Speaker 4: me was that it couldn't be like a potted book,
• 48:38
  Speaker 4: a book that isn't really new, isn't really journalism, just
• 48:42
  Speaker 4: sort of rehashing stuff. And number two, I really wanted
• 48:48
  Speaker 4: to do a book where it felt new and different,
• 48:51
  Speaker 4: and it would be a book where I would consider
• 48:56
  Speaker 4: it a good book if I read it. And frankly,
• 48:59
  Speaker 4: I started a book many years ago and I could
• 49:01
  Speaker 4: tell four chapters in it was not meeting that standard.
• 49:04
  Speaker 4: I put it aside. In this case, somebody came to
• 49:08
  Speaker 4: me actually and said, how about a book about the
• 49:11
  Speaker 4: Situation Room? And immediately I thought about it. My second
• 49:14
  Speaker 4: question was, has it been done? The truth is, there's
• 49:18
  Speaker 4: never been a popular history of the Situation Room. There
• 49:21
  Speaker 4: was one book by a former staffer, a guy named
• 49:24
  Speaker 4: Michael Bone, which came out 20 years ago. When I
• 49:28
  Speaker 4: heard that it really hadn't been done and saw that
• 49:30
  Speaker 4: it could be a window into looking at crisis management
• 49:34
  Speaker 4: in the White House, I immediately said, wow, this is
• 49:36
  Speaker 4: a great idea. I should also add that you know,
• 49:39
  Speaker 4: I'm in the it takes a village world of writing
• 49:44
  Speaker 4: a book. I certainly wrote it, but I had a co-writer,
• 49:47
  Speaker 4: Lisa Dickey, and I had a terrific research team, Cameron
• 49:52
  Speaker 4: Peters and Emily Michelle, and they were just fantastic. And
• 49:55
  Speaker 4: having that whole team being able to work together on
• 49:57
  Speaker 4: it made it very possible. I would work on it
• 50:00
  Speaker 4: every afternoon for, you know, one to three hours every afternoon.
• 50:05
  Speaker 4: And with that team, we were able to get it
• 50:07
  Speaker 4: done in about 15, 16 months.
• 50:10
  Speaker 1: Has Wolf Blitzer called you to complain about your subject matter?
• 50:14
  Speaker 4: But he has not yet. And I'm trying to schedule
• 50:16
  Speaker 4: a time to go on a show, but actually a
• 50:19
  Speaker 4: couple of people have said, why are you writing a
• 50:22
  Speaker 4: book about Wolf Blitzer?
• 50:24
  Speaker 1: I mean, when I got to the West, I half
• 50:26
  Speaker 1: expected to see a bust of Wolf Blitzer in the
• 50:28
  Speaker 1: situation where he's become so synonymous with it. So why
• 50:32
  Speaker 1: the Situation Room, right? Was there something about your time
• 50:36
  Speaker 1: in the White House, having been in a meeting situation?
• 50:39
  Speaker 4: I mean, you know from your time in the White House,
• 50:40
  Speaker 4: this is the nerve center of the White House. It's
• 50:42
  Speaker 4: the center of national security decision-making. That was number one.
• 50:46
  Speaker 4: So it could give you a window into how the
• 50:48
  Speaker 4: presidents and their top political advisors and national security teams
• 50:54
  Speaker 4: made their decisions. But secondly, and this ended up being,
• 50:56
  Speaker 4: for me, the best part of the project was You
• 51:00
  Speaker 4: also know from working in the White House that the
• 51:02
  Speaker 4: professional staff in the Situation Room, the detailees from Army, Navy,
• 51:08
  Speaker 4: Air Force, NSA, DIA, Pentagon, State Department, Homeland Security, are
• 51:14
  Speaker 4: some of the top professionals in government, rigorously apolitical, so
• 51:22
  Speaker 4: dedicated to serving the White House as the eyes and
• 51:25
  Speaker 4: ears of the White House. You know, the funnel for
• 51:27
  Speaker 4: all the communication coming into the White House and a
• 51:28
  Speaker 4: lot of the communication going out of the White House.
• 51:32
  Speaker 4: Such impressive people. And it turned out to be, for me,
• 51:35
  Speaker 4: the best part about this book was being able to
• 51:38
  Speaker 4: tell their stories. Interviewed dozens of them, interviewed over 120
• 51:42
  Speaker 4: people in all. And to hear the stories of these
• 51:47
  Speaker 4: detailees who, when they come to the White House, it's
• 51:51
  Speaker 4: either like the stepping stone to far greater things that
• 51:56
  Speaker 4: they're going to do later in their career, or the
• 51:58
  Speaker 4: capstone of an already terrific career in the national security establishment.
• 52:03
  Speaker 4: Being able to tell their stories was just a great treat.
• 52:06
  Speaker 4: And frankly, to go back to the top of our discussion,
• 52:08
  Speaker 4: a wonderful tonic for an antidote to dealing with our
• 52:15
  Speaker 4: current politics every morning. I was saying this to some
• 52:20
  Speaker 4: friends the other day. I probably go into GMA, I
• 52:24
  Speaker 4: get there by 3.50 each morning. And frankly, I start
• 52:28
  Speaker 4: each day you know, a little bit angry, a little
• 52:32
  Speaker 4: bit irritated, a little bit sad about covering politics because it's,
• 52:36
  Speaker 4: I think it's become so toxic and, you know, and
• 52:40
  Speaker 4: the stakes are so high. And to be able to,
• 52:43
  Speaker 4: in the afternoon, talk to these, you know, amazing people
• 52:47
  Speaker 4: and tell their stories was, you know, gave me a
• 52:51
  Speaker 4: lift every single day. And, you know, it turns out,
• 52:54
  Speaker 4: you know, we've heard a lot about the deep state
• 52:56
  Speaker 4: in the last several years. My insight after spending the
• 53:00
  Speaker 4: last couple of years on this book is the deep
• 53:02
  Speaker 4: state is packed with patriots who are doing an amazing job.
• 53:06
  Speaker 1: Your conversations and the stories of those professionals really spoke
• 53:10
  Speaker 1: to me because I remember, I mean, it's now been many,
• 53:13
  Speaker 1: many years, but on the very first day, inauguration day 2009,
• 53:17
  Speaker 1: I'm sure you had a very similar experience, is you
• 53:19
  Speaker 1: go to inauguration, you get on a bus, they take
• 53:22
  Speaker 1: you right to the White House, they show you your offices,
• 53:24
  Speaker 1: it's got your name on a Post-it note on the door,
• 53:26
  Speaker 1: And I remember sitting at my desk and there's no
• 53:28
  Speaker 1: one in the White House, right? Because they only put
• 53:29
  Speaker 1: like the first like 30 people or something.
• 53:31
  Speaker 4: Walls are blank.
• 53:32
  Speaker 1: Nothing on the wall. And I remember looking at my
• 53:34
  Speaker 1: phone and like becoming for the first time very scared.
• 53:37
  Speaker 1: Like the next time this phone rings, like we have
• 53:40
  Speaker 1: to answer it, right? It's like I see David Axelrod
• 53:42
  Speaker 1: walk in the hallways and Valerie Jarrett's there. And I
• 53:44
  Speaker 1: was like, this is it. And then like about 30
• 53:47
  Speaker 1: minutes later, I went down to the White House mess,
• 53:49
  Speaker 1: which is right across from the Situation Room to get
• 53:51
  Speaker 1: a Diet Coke. The door opens. And I see this
• 53:54
  Speaker 1: group of people come out, a couple of them in
• 53:56
  Speaker 1: military uniforms. They seem very serious. They've just left a meeting.
• 53:59
  Speaker 1: And I was like, oh, there are adults here. There's
• 54:03
  Speaker 1: someone who could.
• 54:04
  Speaker 4: Well, and also you talk, I mean, I write a
• 54:06
  Speaker 4: bit about this in the book. Inauguration Day 2009 was
• 54:10
  Speaker 4: kind of a historic day in the situation because it
• 54:13
  Speaker 4: was the first time I could find, at least remember
• 54:16
  Speaker 4: the situation was started by Kennedy in 1961, but it
• 54:19
  Speaker 4: was the first time I could find where you actually
• 54:21
  Speaker 4: had both teams, both the outgoing George W. Bush team
• 54:26
  Speaker 4: and the incoming Barack Obama team, they are working in
• 54:29
  Speaker 4: the Situation Room in real time, monitoring the events minute
• 54:33
  Speaker 4: by minute, because you guys were facing a very serious
• 54:35
  Speaker 4: terror threat that day on the inauguration. The president even had,
• 54:41
  Speaker 4: as Rahm Emanuel is telling, and I know he talked
• 54:43
  Speaker 4: with David Rackselrod as well, an alternate inaugural address in
• 54:47
  Speaker 4: case something happened, something that he would say to the crowd.
• 54:51
  Speaker 4: And what you had was both teams working together in
• 54:54
  Speaker 4: those hours between, you know, basically nine and two in
• 54:59
  Speaker 4: the afternoon until it seemed like the threat had passed.
• 55:03
  Speaker 4: And I actually got to talk to one sit-room staffer,
• 55:08
  Speaker 4: one of the professionals, who got to give President Obama
• 55:11
  Speaker 4: the news, got to welcome him into the office and
• 55:13
  Speaker 4: give him the news that the threat had repeated.
• 55:16
  Speaker 1: I mean, that's very, very cool. One of the interesting
• 55:18
  Speaker 1: things you do with the book is you organize it
• 55:20
  Speaker 1: around various presidential tenures. And so you've And I think,
• 55:24
  Speaker 1: you know, you've picked the sit room, you talk to professionals,
• 55:26
  Speaker 1: but this is obviously a way to, and you pick
• 55:29
  Speaker 1: crises that these presidents deal with, right? The bin Laden
• 55:31
  Speaker 1: operation for Obama, the withdrawal from Afghanistan for Biden.
• 55:35
  Speaker 4: And Ukraine for Biden as well, both.
• 55:38
  Speaker 1: And Ukraine for Biden, exactly. And it gives you, but
• 55:41
  Speaker 1: it's a way to understand how these presidents make decisions
• 55:44
  Speaker 1: in crisis, right? Which is where you really can tell
• 55:46
  Speaker 1: who the president is, what they stand for, their values.
• 55:48
  Speaker 1: What did you learn through those conversations about both Biden
• 55:50
  Speaker 1: and Trump that would be relevant to voters heading into
• 55:52
  Speaker 1: this election?
• 55:54
  Speaker 4: Oh, well, a lot. In some ways, the Trump chapter
• 55:59
  Speaker 4: was the most difficult to write because, again, we've all
• 56:02
  Speaker 4: become so numb. I came up with the title before
• 56:06
  Speaker 4: I came up with the final shape of that chapter,
• 56:09
  Speaker 4: but the title for that chapter is called Postcards from
• 56:11
  Speaker 4: the Edge. And what I ended up doing is organizing
• 56:16
  Speaker 4: it around basically a series of oral histories from people
• 56:22
  Speaker 4: who worked for the president entirely. And the theme of
• 56:29
  Speaker 4: that chapter is that there's a line of continuity from
• 56:35
  Speaker 4: Kennedy through Biden with one aberration, and that is Donald Trump.
• 56:40
  Speaker 4: And there were always partisan differences. Differences of the amount
• 56:46
  Speaker 4: of control the National Security Advisor had, the amount of
• 56:48
  Speaker 4: time a president would spend in the Situation Room. The
• 56:51
  Speaker 4: difference of Donald Trump was the difference between normal and
• 56:54
  Speaker 4: abnormal presidencies. I mean, nothing about the way that Donald
• 56:59
  Speaker 4: Trump handled these crises was what anyone would recognize who
• 57:02
  Speaker 4: worked in a Republican or Democratic White House for, you know,
• 57:05
  Speaker 4: 40 years in that, actually now 60 year period as normal.
• 57:12
  Speaker 4: Nothing he did. And it turns out that during the
• 57:16
  Speaker 4: Trump era, the president was the crisis to be managed.
• 57:20
  Speaker 4: And that became the theme of the chapter, how people
• 57:24
  Speaker 4: would maneuver around him, how they would try to set
• 57:27
  Speaker 4: up situations where he would have a little bit less
• 57:33
  Speaker 4: control to do some of the things he thought he
• 57:35
  Speaker 4: could do, like sell Greenland, for example, or trade Greenland
• 57:40
  Speaker 4: for Puerto Rico, some crazy, crazy ideas that were coming
• 57:44
  Speaker 4: out of the Situation Room. On the Biden, it was
• 57:50
  Speaker 4: interesting to me, and you know what lead times of
• 57:53
  Speaker 4: books are like. I actually had turned in this book
• 57:55
  Speaker 4: last September, so it actually ended with the beginning of
• 58:00
  Speaker 4: the war in Ukraine, and then an epilogue on the
• 58:03
  Speaker 4: renovation of the Situation Room, which has just been an
• 58:05
  Speaker 4: amazing renovation under Biden. But one of the things I
• 58:09
  Speaker 4: learned from him is how, number one, probably no president
• 58:16
  Speaker 4: in our, in the history of the situation, we've spent
• 58:18
  Speaker 4: more time in the situation room than Joe Biden because
• 58:21
  Speaker 4: of his eight years as vice president now, but four
• 58:24
  Speaker 4: years as president. And he's learned a lot about the
• 58:26
  Speaker 4: process from that. You, you know, that during the Obama administration,
• 58:32
  Speaker 4: he was kind of like the devil's advocate in the
• 58:35
  Speaker 4: situation room for president Obama, who would give the president
• 58:38
  Speaker 4: space to make his decisions. Um, In the Biden administration,
• 58:43
  Speaker 4: it seems like Jake Sullivan, to the extent anybody's playing
• 58:46
  Speaker 4: that role, Jake Sullivan, National Security Advisor, is playing it.
• 58:50
  Speaker 4: But one of the things I took away from it
• 58:53
  Speaker 4: is that the Biden team learned, though, from the mistakes
• 58:59
  Speaker 4: that were surrounding the withdrawal from Afghanistan, the lack of,
• 59:04
  Speaker 4: you know, not insufficient contingency planning, which even the State
• 59:08
  Speaker 4: Department Inspector General said that, and they made sure to
• 59:12
  Speaker 4: put that experience to use as they were preparing for
• 59:14
  Speaker 4: the war in Ukraine.
• 59:16
  Speaker 1: George, the book is fascinating. Remind me when it comes
• 59:18
  Speaker 1: out again?
• 59:19
  Speaker 4: May 14th. Available pre-order right now.
• 59:22
  Speaker 1: Yes, pre-order the book. I promise you, I learned, I've
• 59:26
  Speaker 1: had many meetings in Situation Room. I've walked past it
• 59:28
  Speaker 1: a gazillion times in my life. And I learned a
• 59:30
  Speaker 1: ton from this book. I highly recommend it.
• 59:32
  Speaker 4: Thank you. That was one of the best parts for
• 59:33
  Speaker 4: me is that I've covered a lot of presidents, five,
• 59:36
  Speaker 4: six presidents. I worked in the White House for four years.
• 59:39
  Speaker 4: But the best part for me was in the course
• 59:41
  Speaker 4: of researching around this book, I learned a lot that
• 59:42
  Speaker 4: I didn't know. And that was really fun.
• 59:45
  Speaker 1: So George, thank you so much for your time. I
• 59:47
  Speaker 1: hope to talk to you again soon. And good luck
• 59:48
  Speaker 1: covering this campaign.
• 59:49
  Speaker 4: Thanks, Dan. You too. Take care.
• 59:56
  Speaker 2: Thanks to George Stephanopoulos for joining us today. We will
• 59:59
  Speaker 2: be back with another episode on Friday. It will be
• 1:00:03
  Speaker 2: Tommy co-hosting with Alyssa Mastermonica. Fun stuff. Bye, everyone. If
• 1:00:10
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• 1:00:13
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• 1:00:32
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