Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / BEAUTIFUL BRIDE STABBED DEAD: Parents Quest for Truth THWARTED

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BEAUTIFUL BRIDE STABBED DEAD: Parents Quest for Truth THWARTED · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:05
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Greece. I'm very tempted to say
0:16
Speaker 1: there ain't no justice. But instead of saying there ain't
0:21
Speaker 1: no justice, instead I'll say, now is the time to
0:27
Speaker 1: dig in and fight. Why in the last days, a
0:32
Speaker 1: stunning blow to a very loving, wonderful family that I
0:41
Speaker 1: call friends. Their daughter, beautiful, brilliant, whimsical, loving, is stabbed
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Speaker 1: twenty plus times, including in the back, in the back
0:59
Speaker 1: of the net, in the back of the head. The
1:03
Speaker 1: ruling is now suicide. And no matter how much they fight,
1:10
Speaker 1: and no matter how much of their own money they
1:13
Speaker 1: lay out, no matter how many private eyes and lawyers
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Speaker 1: they hire, they still don't have justice. In the last days,
1:24
Speaker 1: a stunning blow, the suicide ruling for this beautiful young
1:33
Speaker 1: teacher has been upheld. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories.
1:41
Speaker 1: Thank you for being with us here at Foxination and
1:43
Speaker 1: Serious exem one eleven. Where by God in Heaven, we
1:50
Speaker 1: are not stopping this fight. First of all, take a
1:55
Speaker 1: listen to our friends Gavin Fish at True Crime.
1:58
Speaker 2: While this court is acutely aware of the deeply flawed
2:02
Speaker 2: investigation of the victim's death by the City of Philadelphia
2:06
Speaker 2: Police Department, detectives, the City of Philadelphia District Attorney's Office,
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Speaker 2: and the MOO. We have no choice under the law
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Speaker 2: but to reverse and remand to the trial court for
2:17
Speaker 2: the entry of judgment in favor of the Medical Examiner's Office.
2:22
Speaker 2: Even so, in the interests of justice, we believe that
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Speaker 2: providing a detailed review of the victim's death and the
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Speaker 2: ensuing investigation is clearly warranted with hopes that equity may
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Speaker 2: one day prevail for the victim and her loved ones.
2:39
Speaker 1: You know what, if that is the law, then the
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Speaker 1: law is an ass There is no way in h
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Speaker 1: eul that that suicide ruling should have stood. They are
2:52
Speaker 1: saying this appellate court that their hands are tied. No,
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Speaker 1: their hands are not tied. That's why they are there
3:01
Speaker 1: to right wrongs and seek justice. Yet they have chosen
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Speaker 1: the political easy way out. Listen.
3:10
Speaker 3: The Philadelphia Medical Examiner's Office and the pathologist who conducted
3:13
Speaker 3: Ellen Greenberg's autopsy, Marlon Osborne, initially ruled Greenberg's death a homicide.
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Speaker 3: Weeks later, without any explanation to the Greenberg's Osborne changed
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Speaker 3: her manner of death from homicide to suicide. The parents
3:27
Speaker 3: found out about the change from media reports. Ever since
3:30
Speaker 3: the change from homicide to suicide, the Greensburgs have been
3:33
Speaker 3: fighting to have the ruling change from suicide to homicide
3:37
Speaker 3: or even undetermined. Changing to homicide or undetermined will allow
3:41
Speaker 3: for a new criminal investigation to be opened. Twelve years later,
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Speaker 3: and the Greenbergs are back in court trying to get
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Speaker 3: justice for their daughter.
3:48
Speaker 1: Joining me now an all star panel to make sense
3:52
Speaker 1: of what we know right now. But first I want
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Speaker 1: to go to special guests that I call for friends,
4:01
Speaker 1: Sandy and Josh Greenberg, Ellen's parents. You can find them
4:06
Speaker 1: on Twitter at Justice for Ellen tw on Facebook at
4:10
Speaker 1: Justice for Ellen FB. There's a GoFundMe called Justice for Ellen.
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Speaker 1: This mother and father have never given up, and we
4:20
Speaker 1: are fighting alongside them until ultimately justice does prevail. Sandy
4:28
Speaker 1: and Josh Greenberg, First of all, I am so sorry
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Speaker 1: that the appellate court has turned its back on you,
4:37
Speaker 1: but I want to hear your reaction when you learned
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Speaker 1: they're ruling.
4:42
Speaker 3: I was.
4:44
Speaker 4: Stunned. I didn't really know what everything meant beyond tears
4:49
Speaker 4: because I'm all out of tears knowing, I was just speechless. Josh,
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Speaker 4: what do you think?
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Speaker 5: Well, this has been going on for twelve years. So
5:05
Speaker 5: I was not really surprised by the Justice's ruler. I
5:11
Speaker 5: think it's flimsy. I think it's not very substantial or noteworthy.
5:16
Speaker 5: But what really got me was the extent of their
5:22
Speaker 5: description and detail of the whole twelve years of how
5:30
Speaker 5: they felt that the main criminal legal system in Philadelphia
5:35
Speaker 5: was flawed. That's the word they used. How they quoted
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Speaker 5: many of our expert witnesses who've given evidence. I'm not
5:44
Speaker 5: talking about hearsay. I'm talking about facts. We have evidence,
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Speaker 5: and that's what.
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Speaker 6: Shocks me.
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Speaker 5: But I was very very heart one or positive that
5:58
Speaker 5: they were able to say human things let's call them
6:03
Speaker 5: human things, human emotions that they admitted and they highlighted,
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Speaker 5: and they spoke about, and they described why Sandy and
6:13
Speaker 5: I and Ellen should all have justice, the truth, And
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Speaker 5: that's all Sandy and I have ever asked for for Ellen,
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Speaker 5: the truth about our debt. We have never pointed a
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Speaker 5: finger at anybody. We have never said the police were
6:27
Speaker 5: no good, the DA was no good, the Emmy was
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Speaker 5: no good. We've never pointed that as a possible suspect.
6:34
Speaker 5: We want the investigation opened with an impartial investigative team
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Speaker 5: with an impartial investigative head. And to do that we
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Speaker 5: do need the conclusion of the medical medical dixamers changed
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Speaker 5: from suicide to either homicide or undecided. That's all we
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Speaker 5: have ever asked.
6:54
Speaker 6: For the truth.
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Speaker 1: Joining me in addition to Sandy and Josh Greenberg, who
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Speaker 1: it's amazing to me that they can see good out
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Speaker 1: of this horrible, horrible decision by the appellate court. It
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Speaker 1: almost makes me lose faith in our justice system. But
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Speaker 1: I'm not going to because I know that there is
7:14
Speaker 1: still hope. Joining me right now in addition to the
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Speaker 1: Greenberg family is John Lucy, journalists forpnlive dot com and
7:23
Speaker 1: The Patriot Muse of Harrisburg, and he specializes in true
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Speaker 1: crime and cold case investigations. He's also the author of
7:31
Speaker 1: Kill the Story. John Lucy, thank you for being with us.
7:34
Speaker 1: Explain in simple terms, not legalistic terms, what happened.
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Speaker 6: What happened is the law of Pennsylvania is almost total
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Speaker 6: deference to medical examiners and coroners when it comes to
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Speaker 6: making cause and manner of death rulings. They are simply
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Speaker 6: unappealable as a matter of law in PA. And the
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Speaker 6: amazing thing about this decision this opinion thirty two pages,
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Speaker 6: but only one page actually discusses the opinion of why
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Speaker 6: they can't let this be appealed, which is basically saying
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Speaker 6: that the parents of Ellen Greenberg did not have standing
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Speaker 6: to appeal this decision. If parents of possible murder victim
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Speaker 6: do not have legal standing to appeal the ruling of
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Speaker 6: cause and manner of death on their daughter, no one
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Speaker 6: has standing. So the rest of the opinion was, as
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Speaker 6: Josh said, a recitation of this overwhelming evidence that they've
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Speaker 6: amassed on their own dollar to question this manner of
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Speaker 6: death ruling as suicide. And it is overwhelming. But unfortunately
8:53
Speaker 6: the listing in this legal opinion is just lip service
8:57
Speaker 6: because the law is so unassallable when it comes to
9:01
Speaker 6: appealing these rulings. What's going to have to happen is
9:03
Speaker 6: there's going to have to be Ellen Greenberg cases in
9:06
Speaker 6: a number of counties in PA in order to create
9:09
Speaker 6: the groundswell for legislation that would change this. It's almost
9:14
Speaker 6: almost a legislation.
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Speaker 1: Okay, wait a minute, how about this. How about this
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Speaker 1: John Lucy, who, according to the court, would have standing.
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Speaker 6: They never answered that question. They don't answer that question.
9:29
Speaker 6: And if the parents don't have standing, who does? I mean,
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Speaker 6: I can't imagine who would have standing.
9:48
Speaker 1: Time stories with Nancy Grace, Let's just remind everybody of
9:52
Speaker 1: what happened in this case to Joseph Scott Morgan joining us,
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Speaker 1: renowned professor forensics at Jacksonville State University, author of Blood
10:03
Speaker 1: Beneath My Feet and Star of Body Bags with Joe
10:06
Speaker 1: Scott Morgan. Joe Scott, thank you for being with us.
10:10
Speaker 1: Could you just refresh everyone's recollection? I know you and
10:15
Speaker 1: I mostly you did an incredible recreation for our Fox
10:23
Speaker 1: Nation special investigation where you basically took over part of
10:28
Speaker 1: Jacksonville State University in order to create and a fair
10:34
Speaker 1: and accurate depiction of the crime scene where I believe
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Speaker 1: this young woman, bright and beautiful was murdered. That's what happened.
10:46
Speaker 1: But could you remind everyone what happened to Ellen?
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Speaker 7: Yeah, Nancy. The thing that stands out to me the
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Speaker 7: most is the number of injuries that she has sustained
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Speaker 7: that have been into had by the medical legal authorities
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Speaker 7: as having been self inflicted. We're talking twenty stab wounds.
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Speaker 1: At least twenty Because I disagree with you on that.
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Speaker 7: At least at least twenty, because you've got you've got
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Speaker 7: some yeah, I know, overlapping. You have these that are
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Speaker 7: cross communicating, as we refer to these in the medical
11:19
Speaker 7: legal context, where you have one stab woman that enters another,
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Speaker 7: and you have opinions that have been rendered by a
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Speaker 7: highly regarded expert such as Sarah Weck, that have stated
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Speaker 7: that this is almost an empirical impossibility for someone to
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Speaker 7: self inflict. First off, multiple stab wounds self inflicted stab
11:41
Speaker 7: wounds are very rare, and even he says that in
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Speaker 7: his opinion. But here's the rub. When you begin to
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Speaker 7: examine these insults that Ellen has sustained to her body,
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Speaker 7: they are multiple. Uh you know, She's found on the
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Speaker 7: floor of her apartment in her kitchen with this rather
12:01
Speaker 7: robust little knife that is buried in her chest. And
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Speaker 7: I think the most absurd portion to this is that
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Speaker 7: she has sustained multiple stab ones to her posterior, to
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Speaker 7: her back, nancy, to her neck, even some that intrude
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Speaker 7: into the cranial area and brush up against the spinal cord.
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Speaker 7: The fact that they could even imply that this is
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Speaker 7: a possibility or within the realm of possibility is almost absurd.
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Speaker 1: Guys, I want you to take listens to our cuts
12:36
Speaker 1: three and twenty, and that's from CBS three Philly and
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Speaker 1: NBC ten.
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Speaker 8: The AG's office, led by Joshapiro, the current Democratic nominee
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Speaker 8: for governor, has long insisted evidence proves the twenty seven
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Speaker 8: year old died by suicide. She was found by her
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Speaker 8: fiance with twenty stab wounds inside their Many Uncle apartment
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Speaker 8: in January twenty eleven, but the Greenbergs aren't convinced she
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Speaker 8: was murdered, and they're currently suing the city's medical examiner
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Speaker 8: with the hope of reopening the case.
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Speaker 9: I've lost count of all the amount of monies and
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Speaker 9: efforts and emotions that we've been working at to try
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Speaker 9: to clear our daughter's name and get justice for Ellen
13:19
Speaker 9: Ray Greenberg.
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Speaker 10: She was stabbed twenty times. Half of the wounds to
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Speaker 10: the back of her neck.
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Speaker 11: You talk to any reasonable person and they all say,
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Speaker 11: what the hell is going on.
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Speaker 10: Tom Brennan logged twenty five years with the Pennsylvania State
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Speaker 10: Police and worked at the FBI's Behavioral Science Unit in Quantico, Virginia.
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Speaker 10: Now retired, he has worked nearly seven years pro bono
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Speaker 10: with the Greenbergs, investigating Ellen's death.
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Speaker 1: I said, this is a holicide, and Brennan is right,
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Speaker 1: and he is joining us today. Before I go to Brennan,
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Speaker 1: take a listen hour cut for our friends, Doctor Oz.
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Speaker 11: We engaged a neuro forensic pathologist I work with in
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Speaker 11: the past, and he studied all of the information that
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Speaker 11: I had and it was his opinion that this was
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Speaker 11: a homicide and not a suicide. And he said the
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Speaker 11: wounds would have severed the nerves of the spinal cord.
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Speaker 11: And if you take if you look at the wound track,
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Speaker 11: the wound track goes in an up direction into the
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Speaker 11: brain and causes a hemorrhage in the brain. So following
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Speaker 11: that wound itself, the victim could no longer self harm.
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Speaker 1: In fact, Joe Scott and I firmly believe that there
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Speaker 1: were post mortem after death stabbings, which makes the idea
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Speaker 1: of a suicide completely implausible. Let's ourcut twenty three one
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Speaker 1: was so deep it actually nicks the spine.
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Speaker 7: But you know, here's the rub there's no hemorrhage. There's
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Speaker 7: absolutely no hemorrhage, bleeding, no bleeding whatsoever, which means.
15:01
Speaker 1: By the time she was stabbed in the back on
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Speaker 1: that particular stab, there was no bleeding because her heart
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Speaker 1: was no longer pumping.
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Speaker 12: There is no blood where the stab occurred. That means
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Speaker 12: that Ellen didn't have a pulse when that stab occurred.
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Speaker 12: A post mortem wound cannot be done by the victim.
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Speaker 12: By definition, a post mortem wound means you're dead. Somebody
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Speaker 12: else's administering that wound.
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Speaker 1: I want to go now to Tom Brennan, private investigator
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Speaker 1: consultant to Ellen Greenberg's family joining us out of Harrisburg. Tom,
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Speaker 1: I just I feel that you and Josh and Sandy
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Speaker 1: have gotten a real kick in the teeth. You're down,
15:44
Speaker 1: but you're not out. What is your response to this ridiculous,
15:50
Speaker 1: inane ruling by the appellate court.
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Speaker 13: You know, I've been an involved in law enforcement for
15:58
Speaker 13: over fifty five years. I've never ever heard of or
16:02
Speaker 13: read an order such as this. To begin with, when
16:08
Speaker 13: you take a look at doctor Galino and doctor Osborne, Okay,
16:12
Speaker 13: you have two medical professionals who committed perjury when we
16:16
Speaker 13: deposed them. Okay, they both committed perjury regarding doctor Osborne's
16:22
Speaker 13: performance evaluations. Okay, there are three memos out there criticizing
16:28
Speaker 13: doctor Osborne regarding his performance. There are other assistant prosecutors
16:36
Speaker 13: out there, like Guy Diangia, who will tell you that
16:42
Speaker 13: when it came to putting doctor Osborne on the stand,
16:45
Speaker 13: he shied away from it. Well, you have this type
16:49
Speaker 13: of behavior taking place because of Ellen's death.
16:55
Speaker 1: I can't sabo that big question. Wendy Patrick joining US
17:00
Speaker 1: high profile prosecutor out of California, author Why Bad Looks
17:04
Speaker 1: Good and of Red Flags at wendypatrickphd dot com. She's
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Speaker 1: the host of Today with Doctor Wendy on KCBQ. Wendy
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Speaker 1: Big Question, What if anything can be done now, because
17:17
Speaker 1: as far as I'm concerned, the appellate Court is now
17:22
Speaker 1: part of the problem.
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Speaker 14: The most obvious solution would be to change the rules,
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Speaker 14: change the law. This is jurisdictional specific of Wendy.
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Speaker 1: That's not happening. Nobody is changing the rules. To get
17:39
Speaker 1: the legislature to actually do something is going to take years.
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Speaker 14: Well, it'll either take years or it'll take a lot
17:46
Speaker 14: of cases quickly. Remember that's how the Me Too movement
17:49
Speaker 14: changed the law of the Statute of Limitations to bring
17:51
Speaker 14: sex cases. So this is one of the things that
17:54
Speaker 14: John Lucy talked about. If you have more of these cases,
17:57
Speaker 14: and by your bringing this to the attention of the public,
18:00
Speaker 14: we may very well have more cases, because we all
18:02
Speaker 14: know there's no such thing as a perfect murder. But
18:05
Speaker 14: that's why preserving the crime scene is so important. Fatility
18:09
Speaker 14: to preserve evidence shouldn't preclude further investigation or the parents
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Speaker 14: a victim of receiving justice if more people have suffered.
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Speaker 14: God forbid this kind of a procedural injustice. Although we
18:21
Speaker 14: might see the barrage of cases in a very short
18:24
Speaker 14: period of time given social media and the speed with
18:27
Speaker 14: which others say, you know what, the investigation into my
18:30
Speaker 14: loved one's case was also stalled in the court system
18:34
Speaker 14: because the law didn't allow for further appeals, so it
18:37
Speaker 14: could happen very quickly. I agree, Nancy, it's an uphill battle,
18:41
Speaker 14: but I'm the ultimate optimist, not insurmountable, and by Sandy
18:45
Speaker 14: and Josh and you and everyone else that is bringing
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Speaker 14: this to the attention, hopefully that's something that we can accomplish.
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Speaker 1: Okay, So your plan of action, Wendy Patrick, is white
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Speaker 1: for more people to die and their loved ones appeal it. Okay, yeah, no,
18:58
Speaker 1: that's not a plan of action.
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Speaker 14: No, remember this is a cold case. No, this is not.
19:04
Speaker 14: This is a cold case. There are lots of people
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Speaker 14: who've already had this happen, so it wouldn't be anybody
19:09
Speaker 14: else dying.
19:10
Speaker 1: God forbid. I don't know about that. I don't know
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Speaker 1: that there are a lot of people where the medical
19:14
Speaker 1: examiner had a closed door meeting with officials from the
19:18
Speaker 1: Police Department, the DA's office and changed a ruling on
19:21
Speaker 1: cause of death. I don't know that there are that
19:23
Speaker 1: many cases like that to John Lucy joining us with
19:27
Speaker 1: Penlive dot Com and the Patriot Needs of Harrisburg, John,
19:31
Speaker 1: which appellate court made this ruling.
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Speaker 6: This was the Commonwealth Court, which is the second highest
19:38
Speaker 6: court in PA. And you know their ruling could be
19:43
Speaker 6: appealed to the Supreme Court of Pennsylvania. But I want
19:47
Speaker 6: to I'm going to go back to that secret meeting
19:50
Speaker 6: that you just mentioned within within the Medical Examiner's office
19:54
Speaker 6: and involving detectives.
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Speaker 1: Computers, and Josh and Sandy jump in. Please, we are
20:05
Speaker 1: sending a copy of today's program to the Appellate Court
20:10
Speaker 1: and to the Supreme Court in Pennsylvania because they are
20:15
Speaker 1: like many other jurisdictions, including Georgia and many others, there
20:19
Speaker 1: is a Court of Appeals, which is one appellate court,
20:23
Speaker 1: and then there is a higher appellate court, the Georgia
20:26
Speaker 1: Supreme Court. Same thing in Pennsylvania. You got the Commonwealth
20:30
Speaker 1: Court that made this inane ruling, and there's a court
20:33
Speaker 1: over them. This can be appealed up. But that said,
20:38
Speaker 1: go ahead, John Lucy.
20:39
Speaker 6: The one thing I want to mention with this alleged
20:43
Speaker 6: conspiracy which which the Greenberg have alleged happened in the
20:48
Speaker 6: medical Examiner's office, and which they have a second civil
20:51
Speaker 6: suit pending. If we ever get to the bottom of
20:55
Speaker 6: what happened in that meeting and who was involved in
20:58
Speaker 6: what was said, that could uncover the injustice here. This
21:04
Speaker 6: meeting was prompted because of the fact that the crime
21:07
Speaker 6: scene of Ellen's death was not preserved. It was it
21:11
Speaker 6: was declared a suicide at the crime scene by the
21:14
Speaker 6: responding detectives. That was overturned the next day at autopsy
21:18
Speaker 6: when it was initially ruled a homicide. But by the
21:21
Speaker 6: time that they went back to the scene, it had
21:23
Speaker 6: been cleaned and sanitized because it was not made a
21:27
Speaker 6: crime scene on the night of her death. So because
21:30
Speaker 6: you had no evidence it could be collected. Once it
21:32
Speaker 6: was named the homicide, these detectives had to cover their
21:36
Speaker 6: butts and get this change back to suicide. That's the
21:40
Speaker 6: basis of what happened in that office. This was a
21:43
Speaker 6: cover up.
21:44
Speaker 1: Hold on, hold on too much, too fast? Can I
21:47
Speaker 1: tell you something?
21:48
Speaker 4: Yes?
21:48
Speaker 1: Do you know how long it takes to get a
21:51
Speaker 1: cleanup crew to come following a homicide? Forever?
21:55
Speaker 15: But wow, apparently they got a number and they from
22:02
Speaker 15: one of the officers and they called and they got
22:05
Speaker 15: it cleaned up.
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Speaker 6: I mean, yeah, it was fast.
22:07
Speaker 1: Okay, Now I want to analyze what you said right.
22:11
Speaker 5: There at did I can I drop in here?
22:14
Speaker 1: Yes?
22:14
Speaker 5: Number one, the cleanup crew normally takes pictures of the
22:18
Speaker 5: crime scene or the scene than when they have cleaned
22:21
Speaker 5: up before they clean up. This was not done in
22:24
Speaker 5: this case. Number two, We've already mentioned that Melissa ware
22:28
Speaker 5: did video in the apartment before it was cleaned up,
22:32
Speaker 5: and the police took it and they can't find thee.
22:35
Speaker 1: My thoughts exactly, Jackie? Could you roll our cut thirty
22:38
Speaker 1: nine from crime Online?
22:39
Speaker 3: Even though the three judge panel ruled against the Greenberg's
22:42
Speaker 3: latest efforts to change their daughter's death from suicide to
22:45
Speaker 3: homicide or undetermined. The appellite court panel took note of
22:49
Speaker 3: the Greenberg family attorney Joe Pedraza, when he pointed out
22:52
Speaker 3: that the building manager had taken video of the crime
22:54
Speaker 3: scene prior to the cleanup and gave it to the police,
22:58
Speaker 3: but that video is now on account for according to
23:00
Speaker 3: The New York Post. The panel added that there was
23:03
Speaker 3: no record of officers interviewing the company that cleaned up
23:06
Speaker 3: the crime scene, the building manager, or the police department
23:09
Speaker 3: representative who told the manager to hire a cleanup crew.
23:13
Speaker 1: Incredible, Can I go with number three? Go ahead?
23:16
Speaker 5: This goes back to the judges saying the investigation was faulty.
23:20
Speaker 5: But I'm going to bring up something I think is
23:22
Speaker 5: very relevant. Osborne. I'm going to call him doctor this
23:26
Speaker 5: time under oath on a video and audio said he
23:33
Speaker 5: there is a deposition was that he was. The deposition
23:38
Speaker 5: said if he knew what he knew now, he would
23:40
Speaker 5: have changed it to undecided or homicide. That was his
23:44
Speaker 5: testimony under oath. He has never done that.
23:48
Speaker 1: Interesting that that was not pursued by Elie law enforcement
23:55
Speaker 1: to present to the Court of Appeals. There is a
24:01
Speaker 1: lawsuit accusing officials off conspiracy and cover up as there
24:07
Speaker 1: should be. Take a listen our cut forty one from
24:10
Speaker 1: our friend Dave Mack.
24:11
Speaker 3: The parents of Ellen Greenberg have spent half a million
24:14
Speaker 3: dollars of their own money, according to Penn Live, to
24:16
Speaker 3: try and get satisfaction and justice. The Greenbergs, their attorneys
24:20
Speaker 3: and private detectives claim the evidence they've collected show Ellen's
24:23
Speaker 3: death ruling was changed after a meeting among police, a prosecutor,
24:28
Speaker 3: and to medical examiner officials handling the Greenberg case. A
24:31
Speaker 3: pen Live article says the evidence includes the EMMY official's
24:35
Speaker 3: own deposition describing the meeting. In a separate civil suit
24:39
Speaker 3: the Greenberg's filed, they accused the police, prosecutors and EMMY
24:42
Speaker 3: officials involved in the meeting of individual and wilful misconduct
24:46
Speaker 3: and participating in a conspiracy to cover up the murder
24:49
Speaker 3: of Eleen R.
24:50
Speaker 6: Greenberg.
24:51
Speaker 3: In that lawsuit, the Greenbergs are seeking unspecified monetary damages.
24:55
Speaker 1: What is the status, Sandy Greenberg of that lawsuit.
24:59
Speaker 4: We're waiting for. They're withholding all the information from us,
25:06
Speaker 4: so I don't know the legal terms of how to assert.
25:11
Speaker 5: Our lawyer, Sam, let me help you here. Our lawyers
25:15
Speaker 5: subpoenaed for the information the case files. I believe that,
25:20
Speaker 5: I'm going to say turned down. And they now have
25:22
Speaker 5: filed one hundred and seventy eight page petition asking for
25:27
Speaker 5: the evidence. Why after the case is closed, According to
25:34
Speaker 5: the police, they will not give us the evidence. I
25:38
Speaker 5: believe that's the way the law is written. I believe
25:41
Speaker 5: that's the way the lawyer is written.
25:43
Speaker 1: Well, you're absolutely right. Once the case is closed, law
25:48
Speaker 1: enforcement does not have a right any longer to keep
25:51
Speaker 1: that file to itself and not release it. Prime Stories
26:08
Speaker 1: with Nancy Grace, John Lucy. Can this be appealed up
26:16
Speaker 1: to the highest appellate court in Pennsylvania.
26:20
Speaker 6: Yeah, it can be appealed. Now that's a matter for
26:23
Speaker 6: the Greenbergs. But given the realities of the law, I
26:27
Speaker 6: don't know that the outcome would be any different. Their
26:30
Speaker 6: lawyers would advise them of what the possibilities are given
26:36
Speaker 6: the current ruling by the Commonwealth Court.
26:38
Speaker 1: Well, here's the deal, John Lucy. You have to exhaust
26:41
Speaker 1: all of your state remedies, all of them before you
26:45
Speaker 1: can lead into federal court. Once you don't get satisfaction.
26:49
Speaker 1: When you have a legal basis and a factual basis
26:54
Speaker 1: and you can't get satisfaction in the state court system.
26:58
Speaker 1: You must exhaust all the way up all of your
27:02
Speaker 1: possible remedies, and then take those rulings to the lowest
27:08
Speaker 1: federal court, which would be a federal district court. And
27:11
Speaker 1: then if you don't get the ruling you want there,
27:13
Speaker 1: then you try for the federal appellate court, a circuit court.
27:18
Speaker 1: If you don't get a ruling there, you try you
27:22
Speaker 1: try to get a rint to go to the US
27:24
Speaker 1: Supreme Court. Nancy, what you do? Yes, I heard your
27:29
Speaker 1: suggestion that we wait for more people to die. Yes.
27:32
Speaker 1: Do you have another thought?
27:33
Speaker 14: No, I said, Actually, I said the opposite, because these
27:36
Speaker 14: are cold cases we're talking about where justice hasn't been served.
27:39
Speaker 1: Excuse me, You're right, wait for more cold case families
27:42
Speaker 1: to appeal.
27:43
Speaker 14: Yes, more case, more cold case families to come forward.
27:46
Speaker 14: Because one of the things that really bothered me about
27:48
Speaker 14: this ruling is the standing issue, and that if the
27:51
Speaker 14: parents don't have standing, who does And I'm just sort
27:54
Speaker 14: of thinking through brainstorming, we need to figure out who
27:56
Speaker 14: has standing to seek justice so that they can receive
28:00
Speaker 14: justice in the lower court system. And if the standing
28:03
Speaker 14: is the big deal, you know there are other people
28:05
Speaker 14: that were involved in this, maybe the investigators, maybe other
28:08
Speaker 14: I mean, there has to be somebody that the court
28:10
Speaker 14: would rule is able to bring this argument in such
28:14
Speaker 14: a fashion that we can achieve justice now instead of
28:18
Speaker 14: waiting for family, the people that have already died, or
28:20
Speaker 14: God forbid, waiting for more cases.
28:22
Speaker 1: To doctor Angela Arnold joining us renowned psychiatrist out of
28:25
Speaker 1: the Atlanta jurisdiction. You can find her an Angela Arnold
28:28
Speaker 1: MD dot com. Where can the Greenbergs summon the strength
28:35
Speaker 1: for this next round? Because I'm telling you, let me
28:39
Speaker 1: tell you, doctor Angie, which I'm happy if you don't
28:45
Speaker 1: know this, But the harsh truth is when you go
28:50
Speaker 1: to the let's just pretend Georgia Court of Appeals, Guess
28:55
Speaker 1: who's right down the hall from them, the Georgia Supreme Court,
29:00
Speaker 1: who has lunch together every day. Guess who uses very
29:03
Speaker 1: often they intermingle law libraries, the Georgia Supreme Court. And
29:08
Speaker 1: I'm sure it's the same way in Pennsylvania. So we're
29:11
Speaker 1: asking the Pennsylvania Supreme Court to overwhelm, to overrule their
29:17
Speaker 1: buddies down the hall, the Commonwealth Court. Now is that
29:21
Speaker 1: going to happen. Maybe maybe one justice on the Pennsylvania
29:27
Speaker 1: Supremes will have a backbone and do the right thing.
29:31
Speaker 1: Maybe they can convince the others to go along. All
29:34
Speaker 1: we need is a majority, which in many jurisdictions is
29:38
Speaker 1: five people against four on the state Supreme Court. Typical
29:43
Speaker 1: not always, but if not, then then take it straight
29:46
Speaker 1: to the Feds. So how do you summon the strength?
29:51
Speaker 1: How do you keep fighting, doctor Angie? When you are broke,
29:56
Speaker 1: when you spent going on three quarters of an million dollars,
30:01
Speaker 1: when you're exhausted, when you are depressed, when you keep
30:05
Speaker 1: getting a kick in the rear end every time you
30:08
Speaker 1: get up to try again, what do you do?
30:12
Speaker 16: Nancy? I believe that the parents, with each step, make it.
30:21
Speaker 1: Count.
30:21
Speaker 16: It seems it seems like they would be defeated in
30:25
Speaker 16: each step of the way. But I have a feeling
30:28
Speaker 16: that they are so strong that each step of the
30:31
Speaker 16: way is giving them more strength to want to defeat
30:35
Speaker 16: this horrific, horrific ruling. Because we all know, Nancy, we've
30:40
Speaker 16: been doing this story forever. Their daughter did not commit suicide.
30:45
Speaker 4: This is bullshit.
30:47
Speaker 16: But now, unfortunately, like you said, Nancy, now they're up
30:51
Speaker 16: against all of these law people that are possibly talking
30:57
Speaker 16: to each other, but I have a feeling that they
31:00
Speaker 16: are gathering their strength and moving forward because they have
31:05
Speaker 16: got to prove something in this case.
31:07
Speaker 1: You know what I do, Josh and Sandy. When I
31:12
Speaker 1: am defeated and exhausted and get tired of slings and
31:19
Speaker 1: arrows in literary terms, it comes to me. I don't
31:25
Speaker 1: summon it up. It comes to me. I remember my
31:29
Speaker 1: fiance's incredible blue eyes. I used to say, Keith, your
31:36
Speaker 1: eyes are so blue, I think I could swim in them.
31:39
Speaker 1: I remember him looking at me on one particular day,
31:44
Speaker 1: looking up at my window, and I look down and
31:47
Speaker 1: the sun was in his eyes, and they were the
31:49
Speaker 1: bluest things I've ever seen. I think of that moment,
31:52
Speaker 1: and then I know nothing else matters. It doesn't matter
31:56
Speaker 1: what anybody else says or thinks or does. It matters
31:59
Speaker 1: what I do, and if I do it with a
32:02
Speaker 1: clear conscience and with all my strength and all my heart.
32:06
Speaker 1: And it hurts, and I can only imagine what you
32:11
Speaker 1: and Sandy have gone through. Josh, So tell us how
32:15
Speaker 1: do you keep going well?
32:18
Speaker 6: I would like to do two things.
32:19
Speaker 5: I'll answer your question directly, but I'd also like to
32:22
Speaker 5: bring up the fact that the City of Philadelphia issue
32:26
Speaker 5: this statement discussing this ruling, saying there may be other
32:30
Speaker 5: ways this actually happened.
32:34
Speaker 6: I'm not making this up.
32:36
Speaker 5: That's out there.
32:38
Speaker 1: I appreciate what the City of Philadelphia said, but that
32:41
Speaker 1: has no legal significance at all. It's just like they
32:45
Speaker 1: yelled out the car on Third Avenue. So what if
32:47
Speaker 1: they said, oh, this may have happened a different way.
32:49
Speaker 1: Does that somehow help you? Does that help further your
32:54
Speaker 1: legal battle? Have I missed something? Josh?
32:57
Speaker 5: I'm not an attorney, but you asked me how I
32:59
Speaker 5: can How I keep going. I keep going because I
33:04
Speaker 5: see my daughter in my mind's eye. I keep going
33:07
Speaker 5: that I know she didn't do this, and somebody out
33:10
Speaker 5: there is a murderer, and somebody out there is an
33:13
Speaker 5: abuser of women, and that person should be stopped before
33:18
Speaker 5: this happens again. And everything we're fighting for is not
33:21
Speaker 5: just for Ellen. If this whole thing was changed, if
33:24
Speaker 5: this whole law giving the medical dixameters unilateral, I don't
33:30
Speaker 5: know what I'm the bus like powers, this would help
33:35
Speaker 5: others who have also earned the same quote. We are
33:38
Speaker 5: not the first to go through this, and we won't
33:41
Speaker 5: be the last if we don't win.
33:43
Speaker 1: You know, Josh, I've listened to so many different things
33:45
Speaker 1: that you have said in the past, and what you
33:47
Speaker 1: just said literally gave me chills, because you are so right.
33:54
Speaker 1: You are not the first to have been mistreated. Ellen
33:58
Speaker 1: is not the first, Sandy is not the first, and
34:02
Speaker 1: you won't be the last until people stand up and
34:06
Speaker 1: fight back against this. And to you, Sandy, question, how
34:13
Speaker 1: do you keep going? Because early early this morning, when
34:17
Speaker 1: we were on the phone, I heard you guys actually
34:20
Speaker 1: say we see positive in this, and I was thinking,
34:23
Speaker 1: what are they talking? What is positive? Because yes, the
34:28
Speaker 1: appellate court goes, oh this was horrible, Yes this was wrong,
34:31
Speaker 1: Yes there were problems, but we're not going to ruin
34:34
Speaker 1: your favor. How do you keep going, Sandy?
34:39
Speaker 4: I'm very determined. And nothing takes place when the truth
34:45
Speaker 4: is the truth and it's raw and it's out there.
34:47
Speaker 4: And this judgment was read by not just us people
34:53
Speaker 4: who care, but people on the opposition who were trying
34:58
Speaker 4: to conceal a homicide. I'd read it too, and I
35:03
Speaker 4: can't get over how revealing the situation is and the
35:08
Speaker 4: intentions of the politicians and law enforcement and the Medical
35:13
Speaker 4: Examiner's office. They're out Their intentions are out there, and
35:19
Speaker 4: they're not ashamed, which I just I don't, I can't.
35:24
Speaker 1: What in you, Sandy think are their intentions?
35:29
Speaker 4: Well, they're dug in so deep, but the truth keeps
35:34
Speaker 4: rising to the top so that at some point, you know,
35:38
Speaker 4: the longer you can continue, the worse the lie gets.
35:44
Speaker 4: So somehow they're they're going to have to figure it out.
35:47
Speaker 1: Do you intend to appeal this ruling, Josh and Sandy? Yes,
35:52
Speaker 1: Praise the Lord. We wait as just as sunfolds, and
35:57
Speaker 1: remember it ain't over yet. By God, it ain't over yet.
36:03
Speaker 1: Good Bye, f