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Bewitched - Breaking the Spell After Spiritual Mentoring Goes Wrong - A series with Alyse and Robyn · Reclaiming Consciousness

• 0:03
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to Reclaiming Consciousness.
• 0:05
  SPEAKER_00: I'm Elise Bassine, trauma and breath work expert and creator of the Metamorphosis Method, the only methodology bridging the gap between spiritual healing and clinical trauma work.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_00: For many years, our consciousness has been hijacked by societal and cultural programming, religion, the media, and familial and ancestral trauma.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_00: In this podcast, you'll discover my unique perspective on trauma healing and how it is the gateway to fully reclaiming your consciousness.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_00: You'll hear stories and teachings that expand your mind as you discover how every relationship challenge, business block, or limiting pattern is an invitation to reclaim the parts of your consciousness you unknowingly gave away.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_00: Get ready to go deep.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_00: Now let's dive in.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_00: Hi everyone, welcome back to the show.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_00: So this next series of episodes that I'm gonna be putting on the podcast is a special series with Robin McKay and I, where we explore a topic that is quite vulnerable for me, but it's something that I know needs to be shared.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_00: The title of the series is called Bewitched After Spiritual Coaching Goes Wrong.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_00: And this is a story that has been a long time coming for me, although it's quite vulnerable and it feels a little scary to put it all out there.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_00: However, I started to get to the point, probably right around the new year, where it felt like if I didn't share this, then it was almost like I was hiding something or not being truthful in some way, if that makes sense.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, I really went back and forth about this a lot because I believe really strongly in not talking about other people and being ethically or having strong ethics as a practitioner and having a high level of integrity as a practitioner.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_00: And you'll hear me share on either this episode or the one after that one of the things I really struggled with when it came to sharing this story is, you know, just from an ethical perspective, what is the right thing to do?
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_00: And eventually I came to the conclusion that sharing this so other people can learn from and benefit from the story is definitely the best thing.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_00: So in the next series of episodes, you're gonna be hearing from me, from Robin, and from also some other women about their experience working with a coach that we all worked with.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_00: And we're not sharing who it is because this is not about outing anybody or pointing the finger at anybody.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_00: It's simply about telling a story so that we can all learn from things that happen when coaching goes in a weird wrong direction.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, what are the signs or red flags when people are acting unethically or abusing their power or being manipulative?
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_00: That's something that I experienced and that Robin experienced, and that we interviewed other women about their experience.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_00: And this series was really born from Robin and I.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_00: And you guys all know Robin.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_00: She's been on the podcast multiple times.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_00: She's one of my closest friends and colleagues.
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_00: And Robin and I had so many conversations on the phone, like entire weekends spent on the phone, trying to answer the question as to what the hell happened here.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_00: And we looked at this from a psychological perspective, from a spiritual perspective, from an ethical perspective, from a mentorship or coaching perspective.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_00: And this series was really born out of these conversations that Robin and I were having of trying to make sense of all of this.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_00: And I feel like for me, sharing this with all of you is not only cathartic in some way.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_00: And I not only hope that you learn something from it and really get something out of it, but it really is an exploration to answer this question of how something like this could happen and really trying to make sense of it from a lot of different vantage points and a lot of different perspectives.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_00: So today you're gonna hear Robin interviewing me about my experience working with this particular coach for about three years.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_00: And everything that kind of happened and a lot of the dots that I connected, a lot of it was after the relationship ended.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_00: But it felt to me like if I didn't share this, then I was hiding something from all of you, from my community, from my audience, because even though this was such a hard thing to go through and to process, at the end of the day, it has really informed who I am today as a practitioner and the ethics that I stand really strongly behind, and the level of dedication that I have to helping my clients get a tangible result in their lives.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_00: So, from that perspective, it felt really important for me to share this because it really has informed, you know, where I'm coming from today.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't want to say that I'm like necessarily happy that I've had this experience, but I also think it was something that because I went through it, I now have such a deeper understanding of the nuances of the practitioner-client relationship.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_00: I have a very high level of respect for that relationship.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_00: And I am really dedicated to operating with the highest level of integrity when it comes to the client relationship that I have with my clients.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_00: And I've really grown so much as a person, as a practitioner.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_00: And that's why it felt so important to share because it's something that has been very impactful in my life, and it felt really like it needed to be shared.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_00: So today you're gonna hear me share my experience.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_00: And the only other thing I want to say about this is this feels really vulnerable for me to share, not because I don't want to share things with all of you, but because it's embarrassing in some way.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_00: It feels vulnerable.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_00: And I just have to say that because that's kind of the thing that comes up, even though I'm in a lot of ways very excited to share it with you because it feels like it's been a long time coming and it feels like it needs to be shared.
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_00: So, with that being said, I'm going to have the episode start.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_00: And if you have any questions about any of this, if you want to share anything with me, please feel free to reach out.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_00: I'm an open book and I'm happy to chat with you about this.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_00: So you can either reach out to me on Instagram or you can email infoteleasebreeze.com.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_00: And then also very quickly, the certification is starting on February 27th.
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_00: So if you are interested in possibly joining and learning my methodology, the metamorphosis method to facilitate breath work and my very powerful trauma clearing tools, then this is your time.
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_00: This certification will give you everything you need to take clients to a very powerful transformation.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_00: And I just love teaching this more than anything in the entire world.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_00: So if you work with clients already or you desire to, this is for you.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_00: So please reach out and we can hop on a call and chat about it.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, I will leave it there.
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_00: I'm sending you all so much love.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for all of your support and thank you for listening to this podcast for so long.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_00: I love all of you so much.
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_01: Today we are beginning our series on reclaiming consciousness.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_01: And of course, synchronistically, Elise is with us, and Elise Bassine is my dear, dear friend and hosts the podcast called Reclaiming Consciousness.
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_01: So I had this moment recently where I thought, of course, we're talking about reclaiming consciousness with Elise, because what we're going to be doing today and in a few future episodes is talking about what happens in the spiritual entrepreneurship space when coaching goes bad, when there's ethical concerns, when there's things that are happening with coercion and power differentials, and how we as leaders, as empathic people, as intuitives not just navigate our way through that, but reclaim our consciousness, recover, and go on to do what we're meant to be doing in this world, which is bringing more light, healing, transforming, and leading.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_01: Elise, you turn the tables on me too.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_01: So I get to interview you today.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_00: I know I'm super excited, I guess is the word.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_00: Obviously, this is a very vulnerable seat to be in that I'm sitting in right now, and I know you know that, but I do feel like this is a story that needs to be told for many reasons, which I'm sure we'll get into.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm looking forward to getting into it.
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_01: So a couple of things to start with.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_01: One is that we're changing key names and we're changing key locations just because I want us to all feel safe to be able to share our stories and share the relevant things about it so that because both you and I have a background in psychology, we have codes of ethics that we follow.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_01: And one of the things that at least I felt called to in sharing these story in particular is to do what I can to make sure it doesn't happen to anybody else and to use our stories as a little bit of a cautionary tale, but also to illustrate the point that if it can happen to people like us, it can happen to anybody.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_01: And so I know I'm dancing around the issue, but Elise, do you want to dive in with kind of our background on why we're doing this podcast series from your perspective?
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_00: Since January of last year, so for just about a year now, I've been connecting the dots and putting pieces together to make sense of things that happened that at the time, I wouldn't say that I didn't know that they weren't okay, but it was also confusing at times.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_00: And there was a lot that I don't think I was able to see until after the fact.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_00: And that's what we want to talk about today is just like telling the story of what happened because I need to tell it.
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that one of the things that was happening for me, especially right around the turn of the new year, but even a little before then, is it started to feel like if I didn't tell this story, then I was keeping something from my audience, from my community.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_00: And that felt really important because so much of what has happened has really informed my work and has informed how I desire to show up as a practitioner.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_00: It's informed what I now feel is really important as a practitioner and as a business owner.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_00: So it felt weird for me to not tell this story because of the way it's impacted me and my work.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_01: I'm so grateful for your transparency and also for just our friendship and our insights into each other's experiences because we've walked part of this journey, a lot of this journey together.
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_01: For our purposes, we're calling this coach Betty.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_01: Not her real name, but that's what we're going with.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_01: And so why don't you start by just sharing early on, how did you get started working with Betty?
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_01: And what were like your early motivations for stepping into programs with that person?
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_00: I started working with her in the fall of 2020.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_00: I had just started my business.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_00: I was not even a year into my business.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_00: Most people, at least in my audience, know this, but I started my business in January of 2020.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_00: It's actually just about five years right now.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_00: Everything was perfect timing.
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_00: And at the end of 2019, I had started working with another coach, and she really helped me a lot with getting my business started and really helping me with getting everything off the ground.
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_00: And I learned a lot from her.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_00: And then this other coach, Betty, who we're calling her, I found her on a podcast in the fall of 2020.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't remember what she said, but there was something that I felt drawn to with working with her.
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_00: But I think one of the biggest reasons why I wanted to work with her is because she had so much experience.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_00: She had been running her business for, I don't know, 19 years or something like that.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_00: And I really resonated with her spirituality, her consciousness.
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_00: And she was somebody that presented herself as somebody that I would look up to or want to have a business similar to hers.
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_00: So I think that's what really drew me to working with her in the beginning is just her experience and expertise.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_00: Because as somebody who was just starting a business, I had no previous business experience.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_00: My only other work was in the field of education and working at restaurants.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_00: So I really had no business experience.
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_00: So I was really excited to learn from somebody that had been doing it for so long.
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_00: And it really felt to me like she believed in the concept of my business and my work and valued me as a practitioner, which in the beginning is really helpful, especially when you're first starting a business because you doubt yourself a lot.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_00: And that was a big thing for me in the beginning, is doubting myself, like, can I really do this?
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that that's something that comes up for everybody in the beginning.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_00: And she was somebody that she had no doubt in her mind that I could do this.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_00: So I think that was something that was really helpful for me at the time.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_00: And having somebody that was really powerful, like in the space and really believed in me and had so much experience.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_00: That was, I think, in the beginning, what really drew me to working with her.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_00: And she did help me, you know, in a lot of ways in the beginning.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_00: And I did have a lot of success pretty much in the beginning.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, what were some of the tangible outcomes that you found were super helpful and created some success for you in the business early on working with her?
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_00: One of the things right away that I felt was really transformative for me was being around other women who I perceived as really successful and were doing a similar thing to what I wanted to do and had similar perspectives and were doing similar work, like you, actually.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, when I first signed on to work with her for a year, I was working privately with her, but was also included in one of her masterminds.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_00: And being just in the room with these women, I was automatically it elevated me to another level because I felt like, wow, I'm good enough to be in the same room as these women who are really successful and who have built really amazing businesses.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_00: And I really from that point started to look at myself differently and started to see myself as somebody who has a successful business.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that was really helpful for me at the time because I was early on and I was still questioning if I could do it.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_00: So it helped me to see myself differently and start to identify as successful woman business owner.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_00: So I think that was one of the most helpful things in the beginning and the connections I made with you and some of the other women.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_00: And then pretty early on, I did start to have success.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_00: I had, I think after the first four months of 2021, I had my first$30,000 month.
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_00: I really started to have success early on.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, in a lot of ways, I connected that with her and the way that she was helping me.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_00: But looking back, I'm not saying it wasn't related to her, but I think I started to correlate those two things, which then of course made me want to continue working with her.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_00: And I really saw her as somebody that not only from a business perspective was like a mentor, but also from a spiritual perspective.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_00: That was something that I think I just felt connected to her in that way, I guess I would say.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_00: So those were the good things, I think, in the beginning, and the things that kept me wanting to continue working with her and then connecting my success with her.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_01: To summarize, you hired Betty because of her expertise, her experience, and her success in the same space that you wanted to be successful in.
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, for sure.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_01: Spiritual perspectives to yours.
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_01: And then she also had this way of gathering other people who are like you into masterminds and things like that.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_01: So you are with a group of your colleagues and peers, but elevating yourself to helping you believe in yourself even more and see yourself in the way of being a successful owner of a spiritually based business.
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_01: For sure.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_01: Those are the things that we're supposed to do.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_01: Supposed to, I'm using air quotes here, but those are the things that we look for when we're looking to hire a mentor.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_01: That makes sense.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_01: Certainly I have a similar experience.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_01: So I get it.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_01: And then you have these early successes with having big cash infusions in the business, and you feel this expansiveness, and you start to relate the expansiveness in the business to being connected with Betty and the work that you're doing with her, which also makes sense.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_01: There's nothing odd about that at all.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_00: And then I obviously started to feel closer to her and build a connection with her and feel like really supported by her, which was really nice.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_01: Awesome.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_01: So far, it sounds like a normal to be expected alliance with a business coach who you've hired to work with.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_01: So when did things start going sideways?
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_01: Or in other words, what were some of the first like red flags or orange flags that you started having that that you referred to in the beginning?
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_01: That in hindsight you can look back and see there's something off here, but I can't really put my finger on it.
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_00: So I can go back as early as like the very beginning, actually.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_00: But at the time I didn't see it because she had so much more experience than me.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_00: There were certain things that she did that I attributed to like, I haven't really been in this space very long.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_00: So I actually don't know what is normal or what is common practices.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_00: So I just took things as normal that I'm now looking back on and being like, oh wait, that was weird.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_01: Give us an example of something that you reflect on now as being weird.
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_00: I noticed immediately that she would try to drive a wedge between me and certain people.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_00: I remember her asking me, which client do you feel like is pulling on your energy right now?
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_00: Or those kind of questions.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_00: And I didn't really feel that way about any of my clients, but I felt like I had to say something.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_00: And then she would make me feel like I was doing something wrong if I didn't break up with that client or set a boundary or something like that.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_00: And I feel like it was very manipulative because it wasn't like I came to her and said, Hey, I'm having this issue with this client.
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_00: Can you walk me through it?
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_00: It was more that she put an idea in my head and then would try to drive a wedge between me and another person.
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_00: And that looking back was really weird.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_00: Like I would never do that ever.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_00: It just doesn't really make any sense.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_00: And it would make me feel uncomfortable or feel like I had to then do something that I didn't necessarily feel or want to do.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_00: And typically I wouldn't listen to her when it came to those things because at least as a practitioner, I have a lot of confidence and I feel very.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: Very strongly about my ability.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_00: And I have a very strong inner knowing when it comes to the actual work with clients.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_00: So it's it would take a lot for me to go against my inner knowing with that.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_00: However, with business, it's a little bit different because that's not something that I felt that level of confidence in.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_00: So I feel like there were certain things that I could be made to feel like was the right thing, even though it didn't feel right to me.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_00: So that was one example.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_00: Let's talk about addressing trauma.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_00: This was another thing that I felt like early on was weird.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_00: So I feel like she would do this thing where she would try to bring up certain traumas in my life or my relationship with my mom or something that was hurtful to me.
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_00: And then I don't necessarily want to say use it against me, but she really wouldn't have any capacity to hold the space to walk me through that.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_00: And I feel like there was a lot of times where she would bring up something.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_00: And then if it was really triggering for me or I was having a hard time emotionally with it, if I would reach out for support, then she would yell at me.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_00: Like she would gaslight me and blame me of like, what am I doing for myself?
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_00: And why am I reaching out to her?
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_00: It was really weird.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_00: And I remember in the beginning, it was pretty early on, actually, where there would be these times where I would reach out to her and she would like, I think you described it as a snake bite.
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_00: I would use that also, where it was like the reaction made no sense.
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_00: And then it made you feel awful.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_00: And she did that to me a lot.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_00: So it was like she would propagate herself as being able to help people clear trauma that would stop them from growing their businesses.
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_00: But from my eyes, especially as a trauma expert, I did not see one time over the course of three years that she exhibited any ability, capacity, or skills to help people move through trauma.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_00: In fact, she just re-traumatized them.
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_01: That's major.
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, that's just what I witnessed with myself and other people.
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_00: I'm just speaking from what I saw.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_00: And what you experienced.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_00: So those things would happen a lot where she would bring something up and then not really help you through it.
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_00: Or, oh, here's the other thing.
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_00: It was almost like she would say, You have to clear this block in your energy to having a bigger audience or something like that.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_00: And to me, those types of comments are so incredibly unhelpful.
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_00: And she would do this a lot, where it's almost like she would send you on like a wild goose chase where you're like chasing your tail of being like, what do I have to clear in my energy that's blocking this?
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_00: But she's not giving you any way to do that, nor is she supporting you in doing it.
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_00: And as I reflected on those types of things over time that happened a lot, it would infuriate me because as a practitioner, if I pointed something out to a client that I saw as a block or a challenge, not only would I tell them exactly what to do to move through it, but I would be available to support them through all of that.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_00: And that was something that never happened.
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_00: And it led to this perpetual feeling for me of constantly trying to figure out what was wrong with me that I had to fix so that I could be successful or something.
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_00: So I feel like a lot of the things that she would do would be disguised as helpful or helping you clear something or point something out, but really it just sent you into this like tailspin that had no real answer or solution.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much for sharing that.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_01: That's a lot to go through and it's a lot to share.
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_01: Just want to check in.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_01: How are you doing?
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_00: I've told you, and you know this, this brings up a lot of anger in me.
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_00: And you're probably gonna hear this anger as we go throughout this.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_00: And I feel like I've processed a lot of it, but even just talking about it, and the reason why is because people who take spiritual concepts and turn them around to use them to manipulate and hurt people, I take personally.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_00: And I take that personally because as somebody who guides people spiritually and guides people to grow, I find it offensive when people use their power to people that are trusting them and are looking to them for guidance, and they use that power to harm people or hurt people.
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_00: And I have a real problem with that.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_01: What you're illustrating is what I would consider to be unethical psychological practices.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_01: How does that land for you?
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_01: Does that fit into how you're viewing this experience that you had?
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, for sure.
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_00: Because I felt like whether or not there was a conscious awareness within her of what she was doing, it doesn't really matter because if you don't have a conscious awareness of that, then you shouldn't be propagating yourself as somebody who can help with these deeper traumas or psychological things.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_00: And if you do know what you're doing, that means that you're just wanting to manipulate people for your own purposes.
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_00: So either way, it's very unethical.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_01: And to go back to our original statements, which is that we've both taken ethical oaths, and the oath is to do no harm.
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_01: And so now you find yourself in harm's way and chasing your tail.
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_01: And personally, I remember being on a some kind of training with you at one point, and there was, I don't remember the exact content, but I remember watching your face as you were going through this QA with Betty, and your face got whiter and whiter and whiter.
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_01: And I could see that you were really experiencing some significant distress, and enough that I was concerned and I followed up with you after to see how you were doing as my friend, right?
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_01: So I would be curious about how that played out on your end with Betty in terms of any follow-up or any kind of support.
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_00: There was never really any follow-up.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_00: I think I know what time you're talking about, and I remember that was one of the times that I did reach out to her to get support, and that was when I was met with a slap in the face, basically.
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_00: And then it just got to the point too where I didn't want to reach out to her for support.
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_00: And like, why am I paying her if I didn't want to reach out to her for support?
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_00: Because I'm scared that she's going to yell at me or shame me or make me wrong or gaslight me.
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_00: And it would usually come out of nowhere, too.
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_00: So that would be the part that was hard to handle as well, because you never knew when you were going to get this like wrath from her.
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_00: And that was the part that was also just not okay, in my opinion.
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_00: Because it wasn't only me.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_00: I watched her do it to other people too.
• 29:43
  SPEAKER_01: So this was in private/slash public forums where anybody could get the snake bite.
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, exactly.
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_00: And then not only just those types of things, but I just want to say too, like some of the other things that started happening that I had a problem with were just the way that everything was run.
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_00: Again, when I think back on this and I think about why I would be wanting to learn from someone who does things that I would never do.
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_00: And that was the thing that I've been trying to answer that question for a while.
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_00: And I know we've talked about it for a while, but a lot of the things too that I just felt like were unethical or out of integrity were the way that she would talk about other clients to me or to a whole group.
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_00: And what would end up happening is she would fire a client, which also I feel like this was a red flag in the beginning that I didn't realize was a red flag.
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm not trying to use it as an excuse.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_00: I think it was just because I was so new to this world, I was taking everything at face value and just observing.
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_00: But now when I look back, she was constantly firing clients and accusing them of copying off of her or stealing her intellectual property.
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_00: And I remember thinking, is this like a thing?
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't get it because she was talking about it so much.
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_00: And then I realized that it's not a thing, it's really just her.
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_00: And she's constantly accusing people of copying off of her and stealing from her.
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_00: And that was something that in the beginning started to happen almost immediately.
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_00: And then that was also a pattern.
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_00: But then what would happen is she would do like this whole speech of to our mastermind as to what this person did and how they're like such a bad person and why she fired them.
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_00: And then it created this energy where everyone there would feel like they could never stop working with her or leave the group because then she was gonna do that to them.
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_00: So I think that was one of the things that would create like fear because you felt like if you did leave, then everyone was gonna be turned against you.
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_00: And that was like really unethical as well.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_01: So the phrase coercive control comes up for me.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_01: How do you make sense of that phrase in terms of what you just described?
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it makes total sense because there's nothing that's being said outright, but it's just like it's showing you if you do anything that I don't like or you leave, I'm going to talk about you to everybody and turn them against you.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_00: And then I think a lot of the things too, like other than that, that I found to be confusing is just even in private calls, she would talk to me about other people.
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_00: And as a practitioner, again, the only time when I'm working with a client that I ever share anything about my life or my business would be to illustrate something that's making a point as to what they are going through, right?
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_00: That I think might be helpful for them to hear.
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm, I don't want to say the word careful.
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_00: I'm just really like, that's the only way that I do it, really.
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, because trained in appropriate self-disclosure based on your education and credentials.
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, that's true.
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_00: So when she would share things about other people that I felt like, why is she telling me this?
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_00: Or she would share things about her life that I also felt like, why is she telling me this?
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_00: Again, even if it was fairly benign, it still wasn't necessarily helpful to me.
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_00: And the whole point is that she's supposed to be helping me grow my business.
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that a lot of the time on mastermind calls was spent with her talking about herself or talking about how she had to fire her like gardener or whatever the hell she would talk about.
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_00: But whatever it was, it was not helpful to me in growing my business.
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_00: There's a lot of process going on with inner work and transformation.
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_01: And I want to ask a deeper question first, and then we'll go on to the other thing.
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_01: The deeper question is this in the spiritual space, there's a lot of talk about you being the creator of your reality, of you leading yourself.
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_01: And that was a big thing that Betty was very invested in is self-leadership.
• 34:29
  SPEAKER_01: And I agree with that.
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_01: I think that we do have a responsibility to lead ourselves.
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_01: But you said something a little while ago that I wanted to see if we could pull on this thread about how you kept on trying to figure out what you had to fix about yourself.
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_01: So, how does that align or run counter to this idea that you're the creator of your experience?
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_01: I think we take that very personally and very seriously.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_01: And when you're in a relationship or an alliance that has some coercive control and manipulation, that doesn't hold a lot of water, that idea that we create our own reality.
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_00: Can you speak more about that?
• 35:06
  SPEAKER_00: First of all, I just want to say I think that the idea that we create our own reality is taken a lot of times literally or in a way that it's not exactly what it means.
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_00: I think that we create our reality to a certain degree in a dance with the universe or God or source or whatever you want to call it.
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that we have full agency over our perspective on things that occur and how we decide to look at things.
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_00: But it doesn't mean that we are just in full control of everything that happens in our lives either.
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_00: That's not the human experience.
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think that humans in general are very impressionable.
• 35:54
  SPEAKER_00: And I also know that for me, I'm super open.
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_00: I had an astrologer tell me one time that she was like, a lot of people say they're open-minded, but she's like looking at your chart, you are like actually open.
• 36:06
  SPEAKER_00: She was like, you can always see every perspective of things.
• 36:11
  SPEAKER_00: And when someone presents an idea, you just can see it.
• 36:14
  SPEAKER_00: There's nothing really stopping you.
• 36:17
  SPEAKER_00: And I know you've said that to me too, based on my neo assessment.
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_01: The science and the uh spirituality bear out the fact that you're highly open and can take anybody's perspective and see anybody's perspective.
• 36:30
  SPEAKER_01: And so, as a result of that, when you're in a space with somebody like Betty, you can make sense of it.
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_01: You can see what's going on and take what works and leave the rest and do all the things.
• 36:41
  SPEAKER_01: And yet when there's a narcissistic component to any relationship and you're highly empathic and highly open, it's very difficult to do what?
• 36:52
  SPEAKER_00: It's very difficult to close yourself off to what she's saying because, you know, I think that in the beginning, the whole purpose of our relationship was for me to open up to her perspective so it could help me in my growth, you know.
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_00: And then I think as we moved along and I started to connect my success with her help or her guidance, then I'm moving along, making this connection between like her perspective and what she sees and my success in a lot of ways.
• 37:29
  SPEAKER_00: And again, I don't necessarily think those two things were really connected, but at the time I did.
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_00: And also I just want to say like at the time when the first couple of years of my business, I didn't really understand business at all very well.
• 37:43
  SPEAKER_00: I always joke that I literally built this business that I have right now on my intuition.
• 37:50
  SPEAKER_00: 2024 was the first year that I really started to set up real foundations and just like processes and all of that.
• 37:59
  SPEAKER_00: So I didn't know what I didn't know.
• 38:01
  SPEAKER_00: And I thought, okay, this energy is working and she's helping me like with my energy and and all of that.
• 38:08
  SPEAKER_00: That's what I thought at the time.
• 38:10
  SPEAKER_00: So I think I was just naturally open to what she would say.
• 38:15
  SPEAKER_00: And then even if it was something that I didn't necessarily agree with, because of the mentor client relationship, my job is to be open to her pointing out things that I can't see.
• 38:29
  SPEAKER_00: That's the nature of the relationship.
• 38:32
  SPEAKER_00: So, for example, if she points something out and I don't see it, I'm still gonna examine it because that's the nature of our relationship.
• 38:40
  SPEAKER_00: So if she's pointing something out and it's actually harmful to me, at the time I wouldn't have necessarily thought that because I would just think, oh, this is something that I need to look at.
• 38:54
  SPEAKER_00: But then over time, I started to really realize how unhelpful it was.
• 39:01
  SPEAKER_00: And then looking back after I stopped working with her, that's when I think I really started to see that in a very different way.
• 39:10
  SPEAKER_00: And that's what led me to want to always create really tangible ways for my clients to create results because well, first of all, I wouldn't just like point out random things like she was to have someone chasing her tail.
• 39:25
  SPEAKER_00: I'm actually trying to help people.
• 39:27
  SPEAKER_00: But I'm just saying the fact that there was so much of like, this is what the problem is, but no real solution, those were the things that I felt were particularly unhelpful at best and harmful at worst.
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_01: How is your business doing at this time as we're proceeding through your three-year journey with her?
• 39:47
  SPEAKER_00: I would say that in 2021 and 2022, my business did really well.
• 39:53
  SPEAKER_00: And but I also think that was during the boom in the market.
• 39:57
  SPEAKER_00: There was a huge boom in that in the online space in like 2020 to 2022.
• 40:03
  SPEAKER_00: And I also think there was so many people that wanted to create an online business.
• 40:10
  SPEAKER_00: And I think there was a lot of people that worked with me at that time because like they wanted to create what I created.
• 40:16
  SPEAKER_00: And not to say people don't want that anymore.
• 40:20
  SPEAKER_00: People were buying differently at the time.
• 40:22
  SPEAKER_00: I think everyone was home, everyone was like buying on energy and excitement and being like, oh my gosh, I can start making money online.
• 40:29
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it was very different.
• 40:31
  SPEAKER_00: So I also feel like that is what contributed.
• 40:33
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not saying that's the only thing that contributed to my success.
• 40:36
  SPEAKER_00: I also have a very strong skill set that I've cultivated over more than two decades, which I think is a lot of the reason why I had success.
• 40:45
  SPEAKER_02: Of course.
• 40:46
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, but also in those two years, my business did really well.
• 40:52
  SPEAKER_00: And then in 2023, my business still did well, but things started to change in 2023.
• 41:01
  SPEAKER_00: Things just started to gradually change a little bit, I feel like in the market.
• 41:06
  SPEAKER_00: And then I also feel like things started to really gradually change with her.
• 41:12
  SPEAKER_00: And if I'm looking back again, like I remember Matt saying to me, like, you've already worked with her for two years.
• 41:18
  SPEAKER_00: Like, why do you need to keep working with her?
• 41:20
  SPEAKER_00: Like, what else do you need to learn or whatever?
• 41:22
  SPEAKER_00: And I remember thinking, I didn't feel like I could stop.
• 41:26
  SPEAKER_00: A, because I think at the time I attributed my success to working with her, but B, I think it was also because of what I said before, which was the fear of if I left, then she would turn everybody against me.
• 41:39
  SPEAKER_00: So 2023, things started to change a little bit just in terms of just how people were buying, I guess you could say.
• 41:48
  SPEAKER_01: I have a question that just popped in because you mentioned Matt.
• 41:54
  SPEAKER_01: And you mentioned earlier that she was trying to drive wedges between you and other people.
• 41:59
  SPEAKER_01: Did that ever happen in your marriage?
• 42:01
  SPEAKER_00: It's weird.
• 42:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yes and no, because Matt and I did separate in 2021.
• 42:06
  SPEAKER_00: And she did to some degree support me with that.
• 42:10
  SPEAKER_00: And I do feel like she was, I don't want to say she was wanting me to separate from him, but she was supportive of that.
• 42:18
  SPEAKER_00: I think there was a certain point where I thought maybe we weren't gonna get back together, but then obviously we did end up getting back together.
• 42:25
  SPEAKER_00: What I would say is I don't think that she tried to necessarily drive a wedge between me and him, but what she would do is she would say that I was holding myself back from growing because I didn't want to leave him behind or something.
• 42:42
  SPEAKER_00: She would always do this.
• 42:43
  SPEAKER_00: You're scared to grow past this person or you're scared to leave this person behind.
• 42:49
  SPEAKER_00: And these are the types of things that I just find to be wildly unhelpful.
• 42:53
  SPEAKER_00: Like, how is that helping me?
• 42:55
  SPEAKER_00: Unless you're giving me a step-by-step plan or prescription or protocol to not care about leaving that person behind.
• 43:05
  SPEAKER_00: How is saying that helping me other than making me feel like I'm doing something wrong?
• 43:10
  SPEAKER_01: Don't know.
• 43:11
  SPEAKER_00: So those are the types of things that I feel were presented as helpful and coming from a higher consciousness or whatever, but it was just very unhelpful and just made me feel bad about what I was doing.
• 43:26
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like that's a mic drop.
• 43:29
  SPEAKER_00: Well, it's true.
• 43:30
  SPEAKER_00: And these are the things that I've been reflecting on for so long because I'm just like, all of these things that were disguised as like spiritual wisdom were really like ways of hurting people and making people question themselves and making people feel like they have a problem and they're crazy or they need to fix themselves.
• 43:52
  SPEAKER_00: And it's very unhelpful and damaging.
• 43:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 43:56
  SPEAKER_00: Luckily, I'm really freaking good at this.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_00: Shit and I recovered, but there's people who didn't.
• 44:03
  SPEAKER_00: We'll go there.
• 44:04
  SPEAKER_01: We're gonna interview other people who have had similar experiences with Betty.
• 44:09
  SPEAKER_01: But before that, let's go into 2023 because this was, I think, the pivot point.
• 44:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 44:17
  SPEAKER_00: So 2023, this would have been my third year working with her.
• 44:23
  SPEAKER_00: I worked with her for a little bit of time at the end of 2020.
• 44:26
  SPEAKER_00: And then 2021, I did like a year-long package.
• 44:29
  SPEAKER_00: So in 2023, we had a retreat in May that I went to and you were there, obviously.
• 44:36
  SPEAKER_00: And in San Diego.
• 44:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 44:39
  SPEAKER_00: And that was the first time we had met in person.
• 44:42
  SPEAKER_00: And again, this is like one of those experiences that it had a lot of good things about it.
• 44:49
  SPEAKER_00: And I just want to say too, this is also one of the things that makes this type of thing really challenging to process and to talk about because it's not all bad, right?
• 45:01
  SPEAKER_00: Like there's like good things about it.
• 45:03
  SPEAKER_00: There's amazing like experiences.
• 45:06
  SPEAKER_00: The retreat that I'm talking about, that was the first time you and I met in person.
• 45:10
  SPEAKER_00: We had such a great time together.
• 45:13
  SPEAKER_00: I got to meet your husband.
• 45:14
  SPEAKER_00: I stayed at your house.
• 45:15
  SPEAKER_00: Actually, no, that wasn't the first time we met.
• 45:17
  SPEAKER_00: It was like uh the Elise and Robin Roadshow.
• 45:20
  SPEAKER_01: It was so much fun.
• 45:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it was so much fun.
• 45:23
  SPEAKER_01: I want you to take us through the San Diego retreat just on a day-to-day basis.
• 45:28
  SPEAKER_01: I think we were there for four or five days.
• 45:30
  SPEAKER_01: On a day-to-day basis, how did you feel?
• 45:33
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like it was all about her.
• 45:35
  SPEAKER_00: That is how everything was set up.
• 45:38
  SPEAKER_00: Tell me more about that.
• 45:39
  SPEAKER_00: So I think it started out with like there's always a problem.
• 45:43
  SPEAKER_00: I think you did a good job of touching on this, and people will listen to that also.
• 45:47
  SPEAKER_00: But even when I was talking about how she would spend the whole mastermind talking about how she fired her gardener or whatever, those types of things, she would always talk about how people were trying to get one over on her or they're being immature or they're like less than her.
• 46:04
  SPEAKER_00: So she has to teach them a lesson, like that type of vibe.
• 46:08
  SPEAKER_00: And so this whole thing happened because we were supposed to go to on this like excursion, and somehow they like lost the reservation.
• 46:18
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 46:18
  SPEAKER_00: And it was like this whole like thing of like her having to show them who the boss is or something.
• 46:25
  SPEAKER_00: Like it was that kind of thing where there was always some kind of person who didn't know their place that she had to put them in their place, that kind of thing.
• 46:34
  SPEAKER_00: Or there was some kind of enemy or somebody that was out to get her.
• 46:40
  SPEAKER_01: And then as a result of that, what was your experience?
• 46:44
  SPEAKER_01: In other words, did you feel like you could just be supported in the retreat?
• 46:47
  SPEAKER_01: Did you feel like you had to pitch in and help in some way?
• 46:51
  SPEAKER_01: You'll find out, you guys, my response when you listen to my episode.
• 46:55
  SPEAKER_01: But what was your experience with that?
• 46:57
  SPEAKER_00: There was a lot of times during it that I didn't feel comfortable necessarily.
• 47:02
  SPEAKER_00: And a lot of it had to do with the way she was interacting with other people.
• 47:07
  SPEAKER_00: With one of the participants, she brought up like this really insane trauma that she was seeing that the person went through, which again, this is one of these things that she would do all the time where she would tell you that you had this trauma that like you didn't necessarily remember, and now is completely fucking you up.
• 47:30
  SPEAKER_00: And to me, that was one of the most highly unethical things you could do to somebody because I don't care how psychic you think you are, if someone is not ready to deal with a trauma, you don't talk to them about it.
• 47:44
  SPEAKER_00: And she did that to somebody on the retreat, and that was like in particular in a public forum.
• 47:51
  SPEAKER_01: If I have something come up in a group, I'm gonna put a pin in it and take it offline.
• 47:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
• 48:00
  SPEAKER_01: There are some times when it just isn't possible, but as much as I can, I'm gonna do that.
• 48:04
  SPEAKER_01: And I remember that experience, and I think that we all uh vicariously had some trauma associated with that.
• 48:14
  SPEAKER_01: Witnessing it and witnessing how she handled it was extraordinarily difficult.
• 48:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it was very uncomfortable, and I felt really bad for the person who she did that to, because I don't think that's why she was there.
• 48:30
  SPEAKER_01: I don't say this too, Elise, and I want to get your take on this.
• 48:34
  SPEAKER_01: With something like that, if something comes up, you you and I both do retreats.
• 48:38
  SPEAKER_01: And if something like that comes up, we handle it, at least I do, and I'm sure that you do too, in the best way that we can.
• 48:45
  SPEAKER_01: And then there's follow-up support.
• 48:47
  SPEAKER_01: How are you doing?
• 48:48
  SPEAKER_01: What else do we need to talk about with this?
• 48:51
  SPEAKER_01: What kind of support do you need?
• 48:52
  SPEAKER_01: And so on, as both for the group and the individual.
• 48:56
  SPEAKER_01: And as far as I know, at least for the group perspective, there was not any kind of follow-up with that, which is another indicator of the unethical psychological practices that were happening.
• 49:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 49:09
  SPEAKER_00: And I just want to say, you know, just to kind of give an example.
• 49:13
  SPEAKER_00: First of all, as somebody who works with trauma a lot and somebody who is pretty tuned in, you know, psychically and empathically, I've had a lot of experiences where I have been able to see or I was pretty sure that somebody had a deeper form of trauma.
• 49:30
  SPEAKER_00: But I would never ask them that point blank unless it came up in some way where they might talk about it and then I would ask more questions to get clear, but I would never bring it up to them without them bringing it up to me.
• 49:46
  SPEAKER_00: And also I would never talk about it in a group setting if they didn't bring it to the group.
• 49:53
  SPEAKER_00: Doing that, it was damaging, I think, to everybody.
• 49:57
  SPEAKER_00: So there was that, which was, and then it's kind of like you're made to think that this is, oh, we're just having this really deep, crazy, like spiritual experience, but really we're on her roller coaster ride.
• 50:13
  SPEAKER_00: No one else agreed to this.
• 50:15
  SPEAKER_00: Like we agreed to go to a business retreat.
• 50:19
  SPEAKER_00: So there was that.
• 50:21
  SPEAKER_00: And then she also did the other thing to one of the other participants where she shamed her and yelled at her and made her feel really bad in front of the entire group, which was also really uncomfortable.
• 50:34
  SPEAKER_00: So that also made me feel uncomfortable during that time.
• 50:39
  SPEAKER_00: And then, of course, one of the themes with these retreats also is you never really get food.
• 50:48
  SPEAKER_01: I'm laughing, but when we look at high control, we look at things like food, water, sleep being controlled.
• 50:57
  SPEAKER_01: And when I look at your experience, my experience, the experience of other people who I've interviewed and spoken with about this, one of the patterns that comes through is sleep deprivation and control over food and water.
• 51:13
  SPEAKER_01: And so at the time, I never studied high control groups.
• 51:18
  SPEAKER_01: I never studied coercive control.
• 51:20
  SPEAKER_01: I come out of positive psychology.
• 51:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 51:23
  SPEAKER_01: I'm clinically trained, but this is a horse of a different color.
• 51:27
  SPEAKER_01: And so when you're in a group, we're so happy to be together because you and I are buddies and we have people who are like us and we love the sense of community that we overlook these nuances that I think are very intentional at this point.
• 51:43
  SPEAKER_01: And I can't explain them away other than to say that they are aspects of high control groups.
• 51:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 51:50
  SPEAKER_00: And also, I think there was also this whole thing that she would perpetuate around like, we're getting like lighter and ascending, and as you get lighter, you don't need as much food or whatever.
• 52:04
  SPEAKER_00: And I never really resonated with that, honestly, but she would say that.
• 52:08
  SPEAKER_00: So I felt like that was part of if your higher consciousness or something, then you don't have to eat as much or something.
• 52:16
  SPEAKER_00: Like I feel like that was like an underlying weird whatever.
• 52:20
  SPEAKER_01: Was really when this whole idea or notion of the clear channel came forward, and you actually brought that forward.
• 52:27
  SPEAKER_00: Clear channel.
• 52:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, but yet I got accused of copying off of her.
• 52:31
  SPEAKER_00: So that's fun.
• 52:33
  SPEAKER_01: So that was fun for you, I'm sure.
• 52:35
  SPEAKER_01: I'm being sarcastic, but I get at like the whole concept of not needing as much food or needing to eat lighter foods or whatever had to do with this making sure that your vessel is as clear as possible so that you can be the clearest channel possible.
• 52:49
  SPEAKER_01: I get that.
• 52:50
  SPEAKER_01: I get that it's important to eat clean and so on.
• 52:53
  SPEAKER_01: But when we look at being confined in a space for a few days in a retreat setting, and then when we look at the pattern of, I'm using air quotes here, allowing food and drink, allowing sleep, you know, it was always under the, well, we have something else to do, so we'll get to it later.
• 53:15
  SPEAKER_01: The sleep deprivation is, well, we have something else to do, we'll go to bed later, we'll sleep later, and then we have to get up early or whatever.
• 53:22
  SPEAKER_01: So there was always like a rational explanation for the why.
• 53:26
  SPEAKER_01: So it didn't look like it was planned.
• 53:28
  SPEAKER_01: But when we look at the long pattern of it, we can see the consistency in those kinds of experiences that not just you and I were having, but other people were having as well.
• 53:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 53:40
  SPEAKER_00: And I remember when one of our friends mentioned it to me about the lack of food.
• 53:48
  SPEAKER_00: I remember, like, I remember listening to her, and I remember being like, yeah, she's right.
• 53:54
  SPEAKER_00: But at the time, I still put it under that umbrella of the rationalization for it.
• 54:00
  SPEAKER_00: But then when you look back on it, yeah, that really does affect your perception or your ability to be manipulated or whatever it is.
• 54:11
  SPEAKER_00: So I feel like there was these just experiences that we had there that were, and again, it's not all bad either, but there is just certain things that were not, in my opinion, or in my experience or whatever, ethical or really made sense as far as if this was really supposed to be for us to grow, because I don't, it's hard to describe.
• 54:36
  SPEAKER_00: But then just to wrap up that one, because I want to get to the next one and just the progression of all of this.
• 54:43
  SPEAKER_00: The last night there was taken on like this journey of again this whole idea that something is out to get her and doing all this energy work to protect ourselves.
• 54:54
  SPEAKER_00: And like again, it's like this crazy making kind of thing.
• 54:58
  SPEAKER_00: The psychodrama.
• 54:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, that's a good word for it.
• 55:01
  SPEAKER_01: Once we get into sleep deprivation, limited access to food and water, and highly open to experiences, people, which we all are, and I know this because I've seen everybody's Neos, everybody's in an altered state of consciousness.
• 55:17
  SPEAKER_01: Whether we are aware of it or not, we are in an altered state of consciousness.
• 55:21
  SPEAKER_01: It is easy to go down the psychodrama.
• 55:24
  SPEAKER_01: It is easy to go into our highly active imaginations and go with whatever's happening in the moment.
• 55:31
  SPEAKER_01: And what was happening in every moment to go back to your point about there was always an infiltrator, there was always somebody out there who was out to get her or and then collectively out to get us.
• 55:44
  SPEAKER_01: Then we were pulled in for this.
• 55:46
  SPEAKER_01: I'm using air quotes here, psychodrama mission.
• 55:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 55:50
  SPEAKER_00: And again, I'm not saying that it's not true that there's not dark forces on the planet.
• 55:56
  SPEAKER_00: That is definitely true.
• 55:58
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you don't have to be a rocket scientist to figure that out.
• 56:01
  SPEAKER_00: Look at the world we live in.
• 56:04
  SPEAKER_00: But I don't think that focusing on it in that way is helpful to anyone, especially to growing our businesses, which is why we were there.
• 56:15
  SPEAKER_00: But it had this effect, I think, on us where it made us feel really connected to each other and really connected to her.
• 56:22
  SPEAKER_00: And that was something that I feel was manipulated through giving these like experiences like that that are out of the realm of something that we typically would experience in order to make us feel this like connection with her.
• 56:37
  SPEAKER_01: Being part of a group that no one else will understand what we are doing.
• 56:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, exactly.
• 56:43
  SPEAKER_01: That would be another experience that I think came out of that, and then forming trauma bonds as well between the experience that you described earlier with another of the participants, having that big trauma, that big supposed trauma brought forward.
• 56:58
  SPEAKER_01: And then this last experience.
• 57:01
  SPEAKER_01: I remember the next day, you and I eating tacos and road tripping back and feeling like we accomplished something.
• 57:10
  SPEAKER_01: And it was, I don't know if it was fun, but it was engaging.
• 57:13
  SPEAKER_01: We were using our energy skills, our energy abilities in a new way that we had never used before.
• 57:19
  SPEAKER_01: And that was for me, that was very activating and helped me grow in confidence in who I am and what I'm here for.
• 57:26
  SPEAKER_01: And yet, did the means justify the end?
• 57:30
  SPEAKER_00: I just want to say this too.
• 57:31
  SPEAKER_00: I do think that energy work is really important.
• 57:35
  SPEAKER_00: I do think doing things like grid work and working on the earth, that's not necessarily something that I feel called to do, but I do see the importance in that.
• 57:45
  SPEAKER_00: And I know there's people who do a lot of that work, and I think that that's important.
• 57:50
  SPEAKER_00: But again, I don't know if that was why we were there.
• 57:55
  SPEAKER_00: It's hard to explain.
• 57:57
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not saying there's anything wrong with doing energy work in that capacity.
• 58:02
  SPEAKER_01: It was very important for us to do that work for a lot of different reasons.
• 58:05
  SPEAKER_01: I think that what you're getting at is that what I just said, what was the intention of the leader?
• 58:11
  SPEAKER_01: And what were we there for?
• 58:13
  SPEAKER_01: And I know that especially when you get a group of light leaders together, you can't always predict or control how things are gonna go.
• 58:19
  SPEAKER_01: I get that.
• 58:20
  SPEAKER_01: So overall, the San Diego retreat, how did you feel at the end of it?
• 58:26
  SPEAKER_01: And what was different in your business, if anything, as a result of that retreat?
• 58:30
  SPEAKER_00: Nothing.
• 58:31
  SPEAKER_00: Nothing was different.
• 58:32
  SPEAKER_00: I think that is the biggest thing is I think gradually as time went on, it really started to be more about her and this like spiritual journey than really helping anyone with their businesses, even though it would be disguised as helping you.
• 58:51
  SPEAKER_00: There really wasn't any help.
• 58:53
  SPEAKER_00: And I feel like for me, anytime I would try to get help, it wouldn't really be the help that I needed.
• 59:01
  SPEAKER_00: And I watched so many people ask for help with certain things and they would not get the help that they needed.
• 59:08
  SPEAKER_00: And then not only that, I think the other thing that really bothered me is just the way that everything was set up.
• 59:16
  SPEAKER_00: Any like resources or trainings or anything that supposedly you had access to, you could never find them.
• 59:24
  SPEAKER_00: And if you asked her where they were, you would get in trouble.
• 59:28
  SPEAKER_00: So that was something that I just felt was really unprofessional.
• 59:32
  SPEAKER_00: And things that you were supposed to have access to as part of your package that were supposed to help you with certain business things.
• 59:40
  SPEAKER_00: She didn't have like a portal or like a platform in that way too.
• 59:45
  SPEAKER_00: I just found it to be really unprofessional and unhelpful.
• 59:49
  SPEAKER_00: So there was that piece of it too.
• 59:50
  SPEAKER_00: So I just want to say this May retreat in San Diego was like the turning point in a lot of ways of just going in this direction that just gradually started to get worse and worse.
• 1:00:02
  SPEAKER_00: And then I think after that, then she was having another retreat that fall.
• 1:00:09
  SPEAKER_01: So let's look forward to your decision making about even going to that retreat.
• 1:00:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:00:17
  SPEAKER_00: So I was actually pretty decided that I wasn't gonna go to that because I had just gone to the other one and I just didn't think it made sense for me for many reasons.
• 1:00:31
  SPEAKER_00: One financially, and then another one is just like leaving my family for that long.
• 1:00:37
  SPEAKER_00: I just didn't feel comfortable doing that again.
• 1:00:40
  SPEAKER_00: So I was pretty much decided that I wasn't gonna go.
• 1:00:45
  SPEAKER_00: And then through the course of a lot of what do I call it?
• 1:00:52
  SPEAKER_00: Manipulative sales tactics, I guess you should call it.
• 1:00:55
  SPEAKER_01: Can you give an example of something that you saw as manipulative in your sales tactics?
• 1:01:01
  SPEAKER_00: So basically, I don't remember where it was, but it was in one of the groups that we were all in.
• 1:01:07
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know if it was like our mastermind group or another group that we were all in.
• 1:01:15
  SPEAKER_00: She put out like a post basically shaming people who hadn't signed up.
• 1:01:22
  SPEAKER_00: And it was framed in a way of like, you know that you're supposed to be there.
• 1:01:26
  SPEAKER_00: And the fact that you haven't signed up means that you are A, B, C, and D.
• 1:01:31
  SPEAKER_00: You're scared, or you're not fulfilling your mission, or you're not, you're ignoring what you're supposed to do, or you whatever, like all of these things to kind of make you feel like you're doing something wrong by not going.
• 1:01:48
  SPEAKER_00: And then I remember I had a private voxer back and forth with her about it.
• 1:01:54
  SPEAKER_00: And then she continued to say all of these things.
• 1:01:58
  SPEAKER_00: Like that was one of the times where she was like, Oh, you're afraid that you're gonna outgrow your husband or something like that, and just those types of things where you felt like you had to.
• 1:02:08
  SPEAKER_00: And then I remember some other people had signed up, so then I just decided that I would, but basically looking back on it now, and this is like embarrassing.
• 1:02:18
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, this whole thing is embarrassing.
• 1:02:20
  SPEAKER_00: I just have to say that.
• 1:02:21
  SPEAKER_00: I just have to put that out there.
• 1:02:23
  SPEAKER_00: But I this particular thing is embarrassing, which is that I felt like I had to, like I didn't feel like I was allowed to say no.
• 1:02:32
  SPEAKER_00: And I remember feeling that way.
• 1:02:33
  SPEAKER_00: Like I remember being like, I can't say no, even though I didn't feel comfortable in a lot of ways.
• 1:02:40
  SPEAKER_00: And that was like in the summer of 2023.
• 1:02:43
  SPEAKER_00: And then obviously that retreat was in September, October of 2023.
• 1:02:47
  SPEAKER_00: But I feel like after that point, like the last half of 2023 was probably one of the hardest times of my life.
• 1:02:55
  SPEAKER_00: And I feel like I can say that now because I've really been processing a lot and I've like really walked through so much that I've come out on the other side of.
• 1:03:05
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm not saying it was just because I said yes to that retreat, looking back on it now, as just a lot of really hard lessons that I had to learn during that time.
• 1:03:16
  SPEAKER_00: I can go into a lot of that on another podcast, but that time in my life I feel was really hard.
• 1:03:23
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't feel like the next retreat or anything I did with her made it particularly better, or I probably did contribute to it not being that great as well.
• 1:03:36
  SPEAKER_00: So I said yes.
• 1:03:38
  SPEAKER_01: I understand that, and I am also eternally grateful that you said yes.
• 1:03:43
  SPEAKER_00: We did have a good time, and that was the other thing.
• 1:03:45
  SPEAKER_01: We did, but also just from the emotional support and all the things that we've been able to, we had to walk through since then, I am really glad that you were there.
• 1:03:54
  SPEAKER_01: But I think that this is another thing to highlight for our listeners, which is that we are made to believe that we have control over our perceptions and that we have control over our yeses and our no's and that we're leading ourselves.
• 1:04:09
  SPEAKER_01: But as Elise is so beautifully illustrating, and I've experienced this too, that when you are working with somebody who is pulling puppet strings and you don't know that your puppet strings are being pulled, when you feel that you cannot say no, that is uh something that I will always say to pay attention to, please.
• 1:04:31
  SPEAKER_00: For sure.
• 1:04:32
  SPEAKER_00: And at this point, I think I was so like in it.
• 1:04:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it was hard to see, I think, until that next January when I was done.
• 1:04:41
  SPEAKER_01: Let's go to Santa Fe then, because now we're all in Santa Fe.
• 1:04:45
  SPEAKER_01: This is a big group.
• 1:04:46
  SPEAKER_01: I was so happy to see everybody.
• 1:04:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and it was great in a lot of ways.
• 1:04:51
  SPEAKER_00: We stayed together, we had a lot of fun.
• 1:04:54
  SPEAKER_00: There was a lot of great things about it.
• 1:04:57
  SPEAKER_00: But again, I think the patterns that we've been talking about were all present here and then some.
• 1:05:05
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so let's talk about the patterns.
• 1:05:08
  SPEAKER_01: Remember in San Diego, we talked about that there was always there was like an enemy or somebody outside.
• 1:05:14
  SPEAKER_01: So where did that show up?
• 1:05:16
  SPEAKER_00: It initially showed up again where she would do this thing where she would make somebody in the group into the enemy or make the example of them.
• 1:05:25
  SPEAKER_00: And then she did that with somebody in the group where she was like accusing them of, I don't even remember what she was accusing her of, to be honest with you, but like that she was bringing some kind of bad energy to the group or something.
• 1:05:40
  SPEAKER_00: It was so uncomfortable, honestly.
• 1:05:43
  SPEAKER_00: And then I think we were all pulled into it because she wanted to do this clearing or healing on this person.
• 1:05:51
  SPEAKER_00: And we, I think, were made to believe that it was supposed to be this healing for this person who she said had this dark energy in her.
• 1:06:00
  SPEAKER_00: Or something, but then it really turned into being completely about her and her starting to channel this energy and it making it into this whole like show about her.
• 1:06:12
  SPEAKER_00: And then we got pulled into being like her, like support people essentially, and having to work and help her with all of these things.
• 1:06:24
  SPEAKER_01: What else are we gonna do?
• 1:06:25
  SPEAKER_01: We're not big assholes who are gonna say, good luck with that.
• 1:06:29
  SPEAKER_01: No, we are psychologically mature leaders.
• 1:06:33
  SPEAKER_01: When somebody is in an awkward or difficult spot, we're gonna and we're helpers.
• 1:06:38
  SPEAKER_01: So we're gonna help.
• 1:06:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:06:40
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's what we were doing, you know?
• 1:06:42
  SPEAKER_00: And it's hard to like describe because I'm not saying this was all bad, because I feel like there was a lot of like parts of this experience that were very like loving and and beautiful.
• 1:06:52
  SPEAKER_00: And I did experience that.
• 1:06:55
  SPEAKER_00: And then I think looking back, that was really the beginning of the end.
• 1:07:00
  SPEAKER_00: Because I think after that experience, things really just started to go downhill.
• 1:07:07
  SPEAKER_00: And it started to really just be this thing about her and saying that she was some kind of exalted being and wanting us to all vouch for that because we were there in this experience.
• 1:07:23
  SPEAKER_00: But it was a powerful experience in a lot of ways.
• 1:07:25
  SPEAKER_00: So I think we did vouch for her, but then it just started getting weirder and weirder.
• 1:07:32
  SPEAKER_00: And then to really bring it home about not being helpful, I think there was just so much that started happening that was just very unhelpful.
• 1:07:39
  SPEAKER_00: It just all started to be about this is the truth, this is what's really happening, and all of that kind of stuff.
• 1:07:46
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, maybe some of that can be enlightening at certain points, but like, how is that really helping anybody?
• 1:07:52
  SPEAKER_00: And then I think that was a place that I gradually came to is this is not actually helping me in any way.
• 1:08:00
  SPEAKER_00: And in fact, it's it's hurtful.
• 1:08:03
  SPEAKER_00: And then I also from that point on watched her do things that really hurt people and manipulate people into making decisions in their lives that were detrimental to them, all because supposedly she's channeling the truth or whatever.
• 1:08:19
  SPEAKER_01: That channeling is simply perspective.
• 1:08:21
  SPEAKER_01: And I think the one thing that as I look back, because I've been studying channels and channeling for 20 years, spiritual intelligence, all this time.
• 1:08:31
  SPEAKER_01: And as I look at this, I think you and I can both say we have a PhD now in knowing the difference.
• 1:08:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:08:38
  SPEAKER_01: I look at channeling as perspective, and Betty was looking at her channel as the truth, the absolute truth.
• 1:08:46
  SPEAKER_01: And there's a problem with that.
• 1:08:47
  SPEAKER_01: But it was one that at the time, oh, it was really hard to see because there were so many, to your point.
• 1:08:54
  SPEAKER_01: I can hear it in your voice.
• 1:08:55
  SPEAKER_01: There's a softness to it too, because there were some loving times and there were some things that went really well.
• 1:09:01
  SPEAKER_01: But when we look at the overall fruits of Betty's practices, Betty's motivation, we can start to understand that there may have been an underlying, or maybe it wasn't even underlying, it might have just been over it at that point, motivation for doing what she did that had very little to do with supporting you and your business, for example.
• 1:09:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:09:23
  SPEAKER_00: And then I think like she used the energy that was created from that experience to give people this like false hope, or kind of give people like, you're gonna make this much money, or you're gonna do this, or you're gonna do that, or you need to do this.
• 1:09:42
  SPEAKER_00: And it was so highly unethical and manipulative when I'm looking back at it.
• 1:09:51
  SPEAKER_00: And it's hard because, again, there was certain amounts of healing that I got from that experience too.
• 1:09:58
  SPEAKER_00: So that's why it's so hard for me to articulate because it's both.
• 1:10:04
  SPEAKER_00: But I also don't think that in order to have a healing or transformational experience, people don't need to get hurt either.
• 1:10:12
  SPEAKER_00: And I watched a lot of people get hurt and I got hurt.
• 1:10:16
  SPEAKER_00: And then after that, I think there was a there was a bunch of times where she said and did really hurtful things to me.
• 1:10:24
  SPEAKER_01: Is there an example that comes to mind that you feel comfortable sharing?
• 1:10:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, like I when I got on a call with her at one point, this is after that retreat.
• 1:10:34
  SPEAKER_00: I remember her saying, talking to you is like groundhog day.
• 1:10:38
  SPEAKER_00: You always have the same problem and you never grow, you're always at the same point.
• 1:10:42
  SPEAKER_00: And it was like that kind of thing where, and then she left me this really mean message saying, I've told you how to make this amount of money every month, and you never listen to me.
• 1:10:52
  SPEAKER_00: So I don't know what else you want from me because I already told you what to do and you don't listen.
• 1:10:56
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm thinking, bitch, you never once told me how to make any money.
• 1:11:00
  SPEAKER_00: Like I did this all on my own.
• 1:11:02
  SPEAKER_00: Like you never once, and even the recommendations she would give me for certain business things, I would think they were stupid because they were.
• 1:11:09
  SPEAKER_00: I'm just telling, like it is.
• 1:11:11
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not trying to be rude.
• 1:11:13
  SPEAKER_00: That's just exactly what I think.
• 1:11:14
  SPEAKER_00: And that's what I thought at the time, too.
• 1:11:16
  SPEAKER_00: And again, it's embarrassing because obviously people are probably like, Elise, well, if you felt that way, why did you stay in?
• 1:11:22
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm trying to explain all the reasons why, even though it is embarrassing in a lot of ways, because it's kind of like, yeah, I get it.
• 1:11:30
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't put all these pieces together until after.
• 1:11:34
  SPEAKER_00: And even though at those times I felt really hurt by the things that she would say, and then also there was just other people that I watched her really have a negative impact in their lives and mess with their relationships, their level of stability in their lives.
• 1:11:56
  SPEAKER_00: And also, I think that after we got back, she was not really capable of showing up for us, yet we still paid her and we still were supposed to be getting coaching from her, and she wasn't really doing any of that.
• 1:12:14
  SPEAKER_00: And I just feel like that was really out of integrity, also.
• 1:12:17
  SPEAKER_00: So then just to kind of like bring this all together, my year with her was up at the end of 2023.
• 1:12:25
  SPEAKER_00: And I remember, oh, this was even another thing that was like ridiculous.
• 1:12:28
  SPEAKER_00: So I remember, I don't think my package was technically up until January 11th or something like that.
• 1:12:35
  SPEAKER_00: But she had started asking me in probably like the middle of December if I was gonna continue and all of that.
• 1:12:42
  SPEAKER_00: And then I remember I was like, there's still a month left.
• 1:12:46
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm gonna think about this.
• 1:12:48
  SPEAKER_00: Cause I think in a lot of ways I didn't want to, but again, I was scared not to.
• 1:12:54
  SPEAKER_00: And so I didn't say anything, I remember.
• 1:12:56
  SPEAKER_00: And then she again left me this really mean message as like how she has a wait list of 30 people, and how dare I like not give her an answer, which by the way, that's obviously a lie.
• 1:13:10
  SPEAKER_00: And this is another thing that I didn't mention, but there was a lot of times where she would say things that afterwards I would think about it and I would be like, that's not true, and I know it because I've been around long enough to see that's not true.
• 1:13:26
  SPEAKER_00: So there was a lot of things like that, too, where I'm just like, wow, she's just lying about her clients or money or stuff like that.
• 1:13:36
  SPEAKER_00: That I'm like, I'm pretty sure that's not true.
• 1:13:39
  SPEAKER_00: But anyway, that's just again my experience.
• 1:13:42
  SPEAKER_01: Well, no, but it just occurs to me because one of the things that Betty started doing several years ago is starting to talk about the light worker community being infiltrated by false light and how these figureheads are using the two truths and a lie sort of pattern to cover up what they're doing.
• 1:14:02
  SPEAKER_01: And so when you say that, it just brings to mind that I think she was all along showing us what she was doing by pointing fingers at other people, and she was using those exact strategies on us.
• 1:14:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and then just to bring it back, because I think this relates to it.
• 1:14:21
  SPEAKER_00: So I ended up deciding to continue with her, even though it didn't feel right, which again is embarrassing.
• 1:14:29
  SPEAKER_00: What did Matt say?
• 1:14:30
  SPEAKER_00: He said, I think you should work with my other coach.
• 1:14:33
  SPEAKER_00: Matt is the best.
• 1:14:34
  SPEAKER_00: I just have to say shout out to Matt, because he in 2024 and now even too, but he has helped me so much.
• 1:14:41
  SPEAKER_00: He's so good at seeing what needs to happen and then figuring out the best person or way to make it happen.
• 1:14:49
  SPEAKER_00: He's like the best.
• 1:14:50
  SPEAKER_00: So anyway, shout out to him, even though he won't listen to this.
• 1:14:54
  SPEAKER_00: Um, that was in like early January, and then it wasn't even maybe two weeks after that.
• 1:15:01
  SPEAKER_00: I remember I was going through hell because Hazel had lace, and I was like at home combing her hair 50 million times for five hours.
• 1:15:13
  SPEAKER_00: I remember that.
• 1:15:14
  SPEAKER_00: Bless people.
• 1:15:15
  SPEAKER_00: It was horrible.
• 1:15:17
  SPEAKER_00: Knock on wood.
• 1:15:17
  SPEAKER_00: I hope that doesn't happen again.
• 1:15:20
  SPEAKER_00: So anyway, and that I remember I went over and I like checked my phone and I saw that I had gotten a refund from her.
• 1:15:28
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, huh, that's weird.
• 1:15:31
  SPEAKER_00: And I thought maybe like my bank messed up, or sometimes PayPal will try to pull from the wrong account and then they'll send it back.
• 1:15:37
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 1:15:38
  SPEAKER_00: I was like, maybe something like that happened.
• 1:15:39
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 1:15:40
  SPEAKER_00: And then I got a message from her, and it was basically like I was getting fired, which like that was a miracle.
• 1:15:47
  SPEAKER_00: And the reason why is because she was like basically accusing me of copying off of her.
• 1:15:56
  SPEAKER_00: And she said, me and you, and she said that everyone is telling me how uncomfortable they are that you and Robin are copying off of me.
• 1:16:06
  SPEAKER_00: And I remember I immediately in my mind, I was like, that's a lie.
• 1:16:10
  SPEAKER_00: I guarantee you no one said that to her.
• 1:16:13
  SPEAKER_00: I just knew nobody said that to her.
• 1:16:15
  SPEAKER_00: Like, you know how you just know?
• 1:16:17
  SPEAKER_00: I just knew there's no way that that happened.
• 1:16:21
  SPEAKER_01: That's me.
• 1:16:21
  SPEAKER_01: I wanted to ask who, but I didn't because Yeah, exactly.
• 1:16:26
  SPEAKER_00: Who?
• 1:16:26
  SPEAKER_00: Because I'm sure she wouldn't tell you because nobody said it.
• 1:16:30
  SPEAKER_00: But anyway, that was like the end.
• 1:16:33
  SPEAKER_00: And again, like it even took me time to process that because I remember, even in my mind, I was like, that didn't happen.
• 1:16:40
  SPEAKER_00: But I was very gracious and I was just like, yeah, I agree.
• 1:16:44
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's time to part ways, whatever.
• 1:16:46
  SPEAKER_00: Like I didn't end it on a bad note at all.
• 1:16:48
  SPEAKER_00: But then it was like gradually over time, I just started to connect the dots and put the pieces together.
• 1:16:55
  SPEAKER_00: And I remember once I told a couple other people, even just little things like that she had accused me of copying off of her, them being like, what?
• 1:17:04
  SPEAKER_00: And then I remember, like as I just gradually started talking about it with Matt, and there's two other people that stopped working with her around the same time, who you'll probably hear from, I was talking to them a lot and just gradually processing.
• 1:17:19
  SPEAKER_00: But I think for a long time I didn't feel comfortable talking about it because I was afraid of the backlash.
• 1:17:27
  SPEAKER_00: But then I think once you stopped working with her, and once you called me and you and I spent, I think that weekend, you and I spent like the entire weekend on the phone, like processing.
• 1:17:40
  SPEAKER_01: We did.
• 1:17:41
  SPEAKER_01: And we'll get to that part of my story as well.
• 1:17:44
  SPEAKER_01: And I want to ask you, Elise, what were the short-term effects of being in this situation with Betty for as long as you were?
• 1:17:56
  SPEAKER_00: I think that the biggest thing was it really made me question myself.
• 1:18:02
  SPEAKER_00: And it made me feel like I had to like fix something about myself.
• 1:18:06
  SPEAKER_00: And that was really the thing because I have my downfalls and there's things that I doubt myself around and and stuff.
• 1:18:14
  SPEAKER_00: But for the most part, when it comes to like just knowing what I meant to do or a decision or and especially with my work, I just know I don't question myself in a lot of ways.
• 1:18:29
  SPEAKER_00: If you pulled every single person in my life, probably a hundred percent of them would say that I've never reached out to them grappling with a decision.
• 1:18:39
  SPEAKER_00: That's not how I'm wired.
• 1:18:41
  SPEAKER_00: I just know.
• 1:18:43
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it really made me question myself in certain ways.
• 1:18:49
  SPEAKER_00: And the other thing too is I think that a lot of the things that she would say would get in my head to a certain degree where over the last year I really had this kind of like awakening where I really started to do everything in my business as far as how I work with clients in the exact way that I wanted to do it.
• 1:19:11
  SPEAKER_00: If I want to spend two hours on the metamorphosis call, I'm gonna spend two hours on the metamorphosis call.
• 1:19:18
  SPEAKER_00: Like just things where I feel like she would be like, oh, you can't, you have to have boundaries and you can't like overgive to people and all of these things that I actually don't think are real.
• 1:19:29
  SPEAKER_00: Like I get that that's real, maybe for people who don't have good boundaries or whatever, but like I never have issues with any of that stuff.
• 1:19:39
  SPEAKER_01: You've got great boundaries, and you're trained as a clinician, as a counselor, to have good boundaries.
• 1:19:46
  SPEAKER_01: And so it never arises for you, or if it does, you handle it with grace and professionalism as you do.
• 1:19:53
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so short-term effect.
• 1:19:55
  SPEAKER_01: I wrote it down this way.
• 1:19:56
  SPEAKER_01: See if this lands for you when you said it caused you to question yourself.
• 1:20:00
  SPEAKER_01: What came through for me as a destabilized you at your core?
• 1:20:03
  SPEAKER_01: I definitely think so.
• 1:20:05
  SPEAKER_01: As a result of being of questioning yourself, how did that show up in the business then?
• 1:20:10
  SPEAKER_00: I think that it led to a lot of instability within myself, which caused instability in the business.
• 1:20:19
  SPEAKER_00: My business still did well in 2023, it still did well in 2024, but I think it was really in the way that I didn't trust myself, maybe, or question myself.
• 1:20:32
  SPEAKER_00: I think it has a lot a lot to do with safety too.
• 1:20:35
  SPEAKER_00: I think that I didn't feel safe in a lot of ways.
• 1:20:39
  SPEAKER_00: Like it brought up very deep traumas for me around like safety and stability and and all of that stuff.
• 1:20:46
  SPEAKER_00: So again, I'm not saying it was like just because of her.
• 1:20:50
  SPEAKER_00: I think that those things needed to be looked at and healed.
• 1:20:54
  SPEAKER_00: But I do think that it definitely destabilized me in a lot of ways.
• 1:21:00
  SPEAKER_00: And again, in so many ways, like I'm glad that I went through this because now, like I said, and I'll go into this a little more, it's really informed the way that I operate now.
• 1:21:12
  SPEAKER_00: And it's really made me feel so strongly about operating from a place of integrity and also teaching my certification clients how to do the same thing.
• 1:21:26
  SPEAKER_00: And I feel like so strongly about that.
• 1:21:29
  SPEAKER_00: So I think that's one of the things.
• 1:21:30
  SPEAKER_00: Then the other thing, too, is this idea of like boundaries or overgiving or whatever it is.
• 1:21:38
  SPEAKER_00: It's really brought me to this place where, you know, I've really thrown all of that crap out the window.
• 1:21:43
  SPEAKER_00: And the way that I really operate now, which feels so good to me, is that I just give what needs to be given so that the person can get the result.
• 1:21:53
  SPEAKER_00: And that's it.
• 1:21:54
  SPEAKER_00: That's all I do.
• 1:21:56
  SPEAKER_00: And that works for everyone because I want them to get a result, they want to get a result.
• 1:22:01
  SPEAKER_00: If it means we need to have a private conversation outside the group for a moment, if it means we need to stay on a call longer, that's my only agenda.
• 1:22:10
  SPEAKER_00: And then even when it comes to like private clients, it's like we're gonna create a container that's gonna get you to this point because that's where you want to get.
• 1:22:19
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm gonna make it about you.
• 1:22:21
  SPEAKER_00: Like it's not, I don't know if I'm explaining that right, but like it really has put me to this point where I just feel so strongly about helping people get the result that they want to get in the most tangible and easiest way possible.
• 1:22:36
  SPEAKER_00: And that's it.
• 1:22:37
  SPEAKER_00: It's really not about anything else.
• 1:22:39
  SPEAKER_00: And not to say I didn't feel that way before, but I think before it was like, you should do it this way, or you should, I don't know.
• 1:22:46
  SPEAKER_00: It was just different.
• 1:22:47
  SPEAKER_00: Like I didn't fully allow myself to be in my genius because I thought that you had to do things a certain way or whatever it was.
• 1:22:56
  SPEAKER_00: And that that's really shifted for me too, because it's ultimately helped me to realize that there's really no one that knows better than me.
• 1:23:06
  SPEAKER_00: And this is my zone of genius.
• 1:23:09
  SPEAKER_00: I don't profess to be really good at pretty much anything else.
• 1:23:13
  SPEAKER_00: I'm a pretty good mom, I will say that, but like I'm not that great at anything else.
• 1:23:19
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like decent at some things, but like this is what I'm good at, and I just let myself be good at it and I don't question myself.
• 1:23:28
  SPEAKER_01: What are some of the things that you did to heal to mitigate any long-term effects of this uh coaching alliance?
• 1:23:37
  SPEAKER_00: So one of the things was like talking about it with people who had the same experience.
• 1:23:41
  SPEAKER_00: So you and other people who worked with her and who were at the retreats, you know, just talking about it and processing it with them.
• 1:23:51
  SPEAKER_00: And I do feel like in this past like four months, I think there was a big kind of, we'll get this to more of this later, but there was a big movement of people, I think, that kind of realized what was going on here.
• 1:24:04
  SPEAKER_00: And I think being able to talk to those people and even help them, like even being able to help you because I had been, I had been processing for a lot longer.
• 1:24:15
  SPEAKER_00: And also just like letting myself express my anger.
• 1:24:20
  SPEAKER_00: The other thing that's been really healing for me is just having this really clear level of focus as far as what do I want if I do need help with something or I do want to learn something, being really clear on what that is, and then getting that specific help that I need versus it being like, oh, this person is gonna be the answer to whatever.
• 1:24:44
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I think that was something that wasn't necessarily helpful.
• 1:24:48
  SPEAKER_00: So I feel like it's been healing for me to just really look at, okay, there's nothing wrong with me.
• 1:24:53
  SPEAKER_00: And actually everything I've built is incredible and I'm really proud of that.
• 1:24:57
  SPEAKER_00: But now it's like, okay, what are the specific things that I want to learn?
• 1:25:02
  SPEAKER_00: And what are the specific goals that I have?
• 1:25:05
  SPEAKER_00: And then how can I hire someone who's a specialist in that who can help me with it?
• 1:25:11
  SPEAKER_00: And that has helped me feel like a level of just connection to myself and my business and what I want to grow and what I want to create.
• 1:25:20
  SPEAKER_00: And then I also think just on like more of an energetic level, I've done a lot of energy work.
• 1:25:25
  SPEAKER_00: I still do a lot of energy work to just disconnect from that energy and just continue to create more sovereignty within myself.
• 1:25:37
  SPEAKER_00: But honestly, it's really weird because even though there was so much processing that I had to do after the fact, I feel like right when I ended things with her, I was able to just like completely disconnect my energy from her.
• 1:25:52
  SPEAKER_00: I can do that, even though I'm really good at relationships.
• 1:25:55
  SPEAKER_00: I also have like avoidant attachment where I can just be like, peace, I don't care.
• 1:26:01
  SPEAKER_00: So I was able to do that with her pretty quickly.
• 1:26:05
  SPEAKER_00: And then really what I was processing is just like what happened, how it happened, why it happened, and then also just like the anger that I had and just being able to make sense of all of it.
• 1:26:20
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's been really healing too.
• 1:26:23
  SPEAKER_01: So beautiful.
• 1:26:24
  SPEAKER_01: So as we're wrapping up for today, it occurs to me to ask you this.
• 1:26:28
  SPEAKER_01: We started this podcast talking about your podcast, reclaiming consciousness.
• 1:26:34
  SPEAKER_01: So, what advice or recommendations do you have for us around taking care of our consciousness, reclaiming it, and hopefully making sure that something like this doesn't happen to other people?
• 1:26:48
  SPEAKER_00: I think the biggest thing is to never think that somebody knows better than you.
• 1:26:55
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that was one of the mistakes that I made in this relationship is especially because of the point of where I was in my life and business, I did think that she knew better than me in a lot of ways.
• 1:27:07
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that was one way that I didn't realize I had given my power away in certain ways.
• 1:27:14
  SPEAKER_00: I wouldn't say that I fully did, but in certain ways I did.
• 1:27:18
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's something that I would say is like, even though what I explained just now about knowing what you need help with and then getting that help from somebody that you know knows more about that thing, but it's never about, oh, this person just knows better than me in general, and to like really always listen to yourself.
• 1:27:40
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that one of the biggest things is like any time that someone is asking you to kind of like give your power away or do something that doesn't feel good to you, I think it's always important to question that, even if it is somebody that you trust.
• 1:28:00
  SPEAKER_00: Trust, right?
• 1:28:00
  SPEAKER_00: Because I think that in the coaching relationship, there's this dynamic that obviously you're wanting this person to show you things that you maybe can't see so that you can grow.
• 1:28:13
  SPEAKER_00: But I think that there's a difference in like the frequency or the energy or the feeling of somebody who's just pointing out something that like you do already know you just don't want to look at it versus something that just doesn't feel right to you.
• 1:28:27
  SPEAKER_00: Those are two very different things.
• 1:28:29
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it's important to just like discern between those two things.
• 1:28:33
  SPEAKER_01: I think that discernment is such an important word in this conversation, it's the first time it's come up.
• 1:28:40
  SPEAKER_01: But the idea that somebody would have more spiritual knowledge, or that spiritual abilities can only be used for good, or that benevolent people only use spiritual technologies and modalities is simply not the case.
• 1:28:57
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that when we are in discernment and when we can really look at what are the fruits of this and not have to make sense or excuses for somebody else's bad behavior and make it about us and say that we are not victims, because there are really truly victims on this planet.
• 1:29:15
  SPEAKER_01: And I liked what you said that you're you're grateful that that's probably my word, but the idea that you're glad that you had these experiences, but it seems like it came at a cost.
• 1:29:26
  SPEAKER_00: It cost me way too much money.
• 1:29:31
  SPEAKER_00: I know that was a joke, but it's also true.
• 1:29:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um hijack your consciousness is is expensive, as it turns out, guys.
• 1:29:39
  SPEAKER_01: Don't do that.
• 1:29:41
  SPEAKER_00: But I also think for me, it was such a powerful firsthand understanding of the way that people can use their position and the way that they position themselves to you to manipulate you.
• 1:29:58
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that that's just it's important to have that awareness and just know that this is why I always say that it's so important to do the trauma work and do the inner child work because literally this is the type of stuff that happens when people are not aware of their trauma and they start playing it out inside of these situations.
• 1:30:24
  SPEAKER_00: This is exactly what happens.
• 1:30:26
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm not excused from this.
• 1:30:28
  SPEAKER_00: Like there is so many ways where this dynamic that I got into with her was representative of my mother.
• 1:30:35
  SPEAKER_00: And looking back on it, I can see that clearly.
• 1:30:39
  SPEAKER_00: I've done a ton of work around that and I've moved forward from it.
• 1:30:43
  SPEAKER_00: But this is exactly what happens, and this is why it's so important to do the deeper trauma work and understand your own trauma as a practitioner so that you don't bring it into the relationship.
• 1:30:56
  SPEAKER_00: And so you're able to see when someone else's trauma comes up, and even if they project it onto you, you can see what's happening, you don't react, and you're able to walk them through it, which is what I'm able to do for people.
• 1:31:09
  SPEAKER_00: It's what you're able to do for people, but not everyone has that awareness.
• 1:31:13
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's why these relationships can go awry and why these kind of really unhealthy power dynamics can show themselves.
• 1:31:23
  SPEAKER_01: That is brilliant.
• 1:31:24
  SPEAKER_01: I think that it occurred to me, if I were going to make sense of the why for you, why it happened from a like best case scenario, you as an expert in trauma recovery got a PhD in what not to do.
• 1:31:41
  unknown: Yes.
• 1:31:42
  SPEAKER_01: And also there's something about when we go through, when we walk through experiences like this, and we come out on the other side and we have our understanding of the journey.
• 1:31:57
  SPEAKER_01: We have a medicine, you have a medicine that now you get to transmit and and dose out to your clients and to people like me who love you and who you love.
• 1:32:07
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that there's there's so many gifts in this as well.
• 1:32:11
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe it couldn't have come any other way for you.
• 1:32:13
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
• 1:32:14
  SPEAKER_01: But I'm grateful that you opened up this conversation with me and and I'm sure that our listeners are as well.
• 1:32:21
  SPEAKER_01: Do you have any final thoughts before we say goodbye for today?
• 1:32:25
  SPEAKER_00: I just want to say that this isn't easy for me to share.
• 1:32:29
  SPEAKER_00: There's a level of I feel stupid, I feel embarrassed, I feel I should have been able to see this.
• 1:32:36
  SPEAKER_00: But again, like you said, I do think I had to go through and experience this.
• 1:32:42
  SPEAKER_00: And it was just part of my journey.
• 1:32:45
  SPEAKER_00: And also like now I'm able to really take it into what I do and have so much more of a conviction.
• 1:32:54
  SPEAKER_00: And I also feel like it really informed like the tools that I've created and everything that I created last year that is really helpful for people.
• 1:33:06
  SPEAKER_00: It drove me to want to create these things that would be really simple and helpful for people because I just don't want anyone to feel like they know what the trauma is and they don't know how to change it in a simple, tangible way.
• 1:33:24
  SPEAKER_00: So I think that that's been something that on the heels of this and like healing from this has created this like driving force within me to create things in a way that I never have before.
• 1:33:36
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like very, it feels really good.
• 1:33:38
  SPEAKER_00: Like I love doing it and I love the results that people are getting and I love working with people in this way.
• 1:33:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so it's really just changed so much of my perspective, and I think has really created this drive within me to just help people in the most simple, tangible way that I can.
• 1:34:01
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for doing that.
• 1:34:03
  SPEAKER_01: And thank you for sharing your heart and your story.
• 1:34:06
  SPEAKER_01: I'm honored, and I know that our listeners are as well.
• 1:34:10
  SPEAKER_01: It is not easy to share these stories.
• 1:34:12
  SPEAKER_01: And the theme of I feel stupid, I feel embarrassed, I feel ashamed, you guys will hear over and over and over again.
• 1:34:19
  SPEAKER_01: And please remember that if it can happen to somebody like Elise, it can happen to anybody.
• 1:34:24
  SPEAKER_01: It can happen to me, and it did.
• 1:34:26
  SPEAKER_00: We will hear about that soon enough.
• 1:34:29
  SPEAKER_00: Elise for being here with us today.
• 1:34:32
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for having me.
• 1:34:34
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much for being here.
• 1:34:36
  SPEAKER_00: Don't forget to subscribe to the show, leave a review, and share the show with your friends who you know are yearning for this type of content.
• 1:34:43
  SPEAKER_00: When you leave a review, send us a screenshot and we'll send you a$250 credit you can apply to anything else in my world.
• 1:34:50
  SPEAKER_00: You can stay connected with me by following me on Instagram at Elise underscore breeds and by joining my Facebook group, Financial Freedom for Spiritual Entrepreneurs, where I share all of my most fun and potent content.
• 1:35:02
  SPEAKER_00: Make sure you download my breathwork for financial freedom at elisebreeds.com.
• 1:35:06
  SPEAKER_00: See you next time.