Latest / A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast / Talks to Toby Hadoke about his choice of The Web of Fear (1/6)

Transcript

Talks to Toby Hadoke about his choice of The Web of Fear (1/6) · A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast

0:33
Hamster with a blunt pen knife. They're doing quicker.
0:37
Welcome back to our Hamster with a blunt pen Knife, the Doctor
0:40
Who Commentary podcast. Scary things are afoot tonight.
0:46
Sinister webs have started appearing in the London
0:50
Underground, people are dead in entrances and the army has been
0:55
called in. Toby, what's going on?
0:57
Oh. Panic began when people got to,
1:00
got to, you know, Kings Cross station and it said the next
1:03
train is not due for 6 minutes and people like 6 minutes.
1:07
Are you mad? It just goes to show her because
1:09
I, I've been, I've been there. Just goes to show her.
1:12
Now we, we, you know, people can be very rude about the London
1:15
Underground, but the, the idea that you have to wait a whole 6
1:18
minutes before a next train that could take you halfway across
1:21
the capital city in record time. But that was the first sign.
1:25
And yeah, this is a, this is a, an, an important story for me,
1:31
as I'm sure we will discuss. So I'm delighted to be raking
1:35
over it with your good self, Joe.
1:38
I was first introduced to it via the medium of the Target books,
1:41
because it was one of the first ones and it was one of the ones
1:43
my brothers had and it was the first Target book, the first
1:48
Doctor Who book that I ever read.
1:50
It is my Ground Zero of old Doctor Who.
1:54
So by this point I'd already watched probably bits of season
1:58
16 and bits of season 17 and I, I suspect maybe bits.
2:04
So, so it was either around that it was probably around the time
2:06
of season 18. So I was, I was young, but those
2:10
books were, you know, we're, we're not too tricky, the
2:14
Terence Dix ones for, for younger readers.
2:16
I would venture and, and, and I and I and I decided upon it.
2:20
I'd had a go at reading bits and bobs.
2:23
I'd read a chapter, I'd read the last chapter because it's very,
2:26
very short of Malcolm Hulk's Doctor Who and The Cave
2:28
Monsters. And that was my first whole
2:31
chapter that I, I spoiled myself for the end of Doctor Who and
2:35
the Silurians. But no, this was the first book
2:37
I actually attempted because I liked the cover and yeah, it
2:42
just seemed like 1 to go for and seemed very exciting and, and
2:46
I'm and I read it and completed it.
2:48
So it's my, it's, it's from me, the Doctor Who story, from which
2:51
all other Doctor Who stories grow, if you like.
2:55
I I have a bit of an old story about the Web of Fear
2:57
novelization, which I think it's a great novel.
3:00
It's a brilliant Terror 6 novel, but it was the first time I can
3:05
remember a moment when I realised that a writer wasn't
3:11
just telling me what was happening in the story, but they
3:14
could play with me. So there's an end of chapter
3:17
where Terence goes, somebody opened the door.
3:22
So throughout the whole book he's just detailing you.
3:25
And then there's a one bit where he's not telling you who it is.
3:28
And I was like, hang on a minute, he's talking to me, he's
3:31
talking directly to me and trying to get me.
3:34
And it sort of changed how I was looking at books at the time.
3:37
It was really, I remember getting Goosey's and being like
3:40
who? And I was more involved in the
3:42
mystery just for that someone, you know.
3:45
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, it's a real.
3:47
It is a real who does? And it's funny because I
3:49
remember the robots of death quite early on, you know, so
3:51
the, the idea of the Doctor, you mean, yeah, I know, yes, the,
3:54
the the York notes on the robots of death.
3:57
But but the idea that there was a sort of there was a whodunit
3:59
element to Doctor Who, which obviously the there wasn't
4:03
always. But, but you know, again, it
4:04
seems to be part of the sort of template of the Doctor Who that,
4:07
that piqued my interest or was memorable.
4:10
But it's, it's funny because things like, obviously I didn't
4:13
understand everything I was reading.
4:15
So it took me, it was only when I had seen the Five faces of
4:19
Doctor Who and thought the Brigadier was a cool character
4:22
and that sort of thing. And then I think I got a Doctor
4:23
Who magazine with a, with a, you know, they used to do the what's
4:29
called the episode guide, which would give episode endings and
4:32
the cast list. And I was reading one of the
4:34
perky ones and I realized that as I thought he was called at
4:37
the time length Bridge Stewart was was the Brigadier.
4:41
And and I remember reading that and going, Oh, wow, that was
4:45
that was that guy. Who's the guy in web affair?
4:47
Even though when you go back to the book, it does actually flag
4:50
that and it it says it's like Livingston meeting Stanley,
4:53
doesn't it? And it and it does.
4:54
I love it when it used to do that thing and it would have an
4:56
asterisk and it would say see who the autonomy invasion this
5:00
book. And I remember asking my brother
5:01
why, why would say that? And he'd say, ah, because the
5:04
thing that they're talking about is, you know, happens more or is
5:08
referring to something from another Doctor Who I used to
5:11
get. That's how I worked out how
5:12
asterisks. Worked as well.
5:13
I used to get. So cross I go, Mum, if I got
5:15
this one. Doctor Who and The Cave
5:17
monsters. No.
5:19
Well, we must find it. Yeah.
5:21
Oh God. Why?
5:23
Do you know what this is where this weird parasocial
5:26
relationship really comes in full force?
5:28
Because when you said length bridge Stewart, then yeah, all I
5:31
could think of was were Smiths and Womble as well.
5:37
Yes, were were her Smiths and the one bile.
5:41
Yes, her Smiths and the one bile.
5:43
I mean I was a a logo police boy.
5:46
Yeah, you. Know and Oh yeah.
5:48
Well, I was talking to somebody the other day who said he always
5:52
thought they were called the censorities.
5:56
I always, I don't think I ever had that.
5:58
I think I always had censorites. But you can I can see now why he
6:02
might think it was censorites. You know Matt Michael who
6:06
released the Doctor Who magazine, Fabulous.
6:08
Matt Michael, he tells me a very funny story about his mate.
6:10
You know, Anthony Ailey, looking for the cat's eyes in survival
6:15
and he goes show me, show me. And his mate for the cat was
6:19
called Show me. Yes.
6:21
I don't think, I don't think he's alone there.
6:23
I think I'm yeah. So I'm very pleased to tell you
6:28
off topic already that a stray black cat and now lives in my
6:33
garden and lives in a tent in my garden that I feed every single
6:37
day. And he is named Show.
6:39
Me, I love it. I love it.
6:42
I've got 2 questions for you before we go into episode one.
6:44
I've got plenty of time to talk about this.
6:47
My first one is, did you imagine you would ever be able to watch
6:50
this thing? And how on earth did you feel
6:54
when you realised you would be able to watch Web of Fear?
6:58
It's funny because I'm now trying to think of a time when
7:01
the Weber fear didn't exist because of course we always had
7:03
episode 1. And I've very much been, when
7:06
I've played the game of which stories would you like back or
7:10
whatever. There was part of me that's
7:13
like, but we've got we've got a really good example of the Weber
7:15
fear. So show me something that's a
7:17
bit more mysterious. And because I'm so familiar with
7:19
the Weber fear in a way. But then when we did running
7:23
through corridors and we Rob, Rob Shearman and I did the
7:28
series in order and and it enabled you to assess everything
7:32
in context. You know, we came out of the
7:34
Trout and ERA and and the two that really sang out to me that
7:39
I really needed to see I felt were power and web and it was
7:44
like, oh, this isn't now us just going for the favorite ones.
7:47
Actually watching it through there, the two there too.
7:50
That and particularly it was the scene when when the Colonel sort
7:54
of comes back and everyone's dead, you know, and he's just
7:56
like, oh, this is awful. You're like, wow, this sounds
7:59
really immense and we know that it's a good production because
8:03
we've got episode 1, which is which is phenomenally well made.
8:08
And it did make me think, you know, just because just we've
8:11
got the episode 1, it doesn't mean we don't need need need the
8:14
rest of it. And I think because we were
8:17
doing the show in order as well, there was then it was a massive
8:21
gap doing the trout near and we had to do with it with a lot of
8:24
recons. You know, you'd get from from a
8:30
a certain point in, in season 5, you suddenly go, isn't it?
8:34
You'd, you'd go from, I think from, from Weber fear one to
8:37
wheel in space three. There was a, there was a huge,
8:41
you know, so the five episodes of the Weber fear 6 of fury and,
8:45
and two of wheel. And it was like, oh, we've got a
8:48
big chunk here where we've got nothing visual at all.
8:52
And it did seem like you were suddenly you were suddenly
8:56
driving through the road in the dark, if you like.
8:59
But it did seem all with this, this really is quite painful
9:02
now, especially as the gap that there was an even longer gap
9:05
that was only broken by, you know, an episode of Fury and an
9:09
episode of web of Fear as well. So you'd only got those two
9:11
episodes in, you know, a huge old chunk.
9:15
And and it did seem like that this was a period that had been
9:18
really laid waste to so the return of those two stories.
9:23
I mean, it was astonishing anyway, because I think we'd
9:25
only expected, or I'd certainly only expected single episodes to
9:30
turn up. At that point, the idea that
9:32
we'd get a full story seemed ludicrous.
9:36
So the fact that it was a, a, a story that I, I felt in my bones
9:41
was underrated and turned out to be the case and an enemy of the
9:44
world. But then I wasn't and and I was
9:47
intrigued to see because there were various scenes like stuff
9:50
in episode 6 that I thought, well, it'd be interesting to see
9:52
that. And episode 4, we've got no
9:54
telesnap. So this is kind of fun And and
9:56
episode 1's got a load of film stuff there, but it was web of
9:59
fear. I was like, but but this I think
10:02
this I think this will be good to see.
10:05
And there was a bit of because the people were pleasantly
10:08
surprised by enemy. I felt Webb even by Doctor Who's
10:12
brand manager in I think a hurriedly.
10:14
I think you'll see it as well. Yeah, but it's not your job to
10:18
big up. No, I know who sort of went, oh,
10:22
I'm a bit bit, you know, and enemies, you know, enemies
10:25
great. But web, isn't Webb a little bit
10:27
disappointing? And I think, well, I mean, Weber
10:29
fear had always been in the top sort of 10 Doctor Who stories of
10:33
all time in polls and things like that.
10:35
So I think it was always, I remember being disappointed with
10:39
Tomb, but I'd I'd always felt Tomb was probably likely to be
10:42
fairly overrated anyway because it's not a great story wise.
10:45
There's not an awful lot of story to it.
10:48
And but Maurice Barry is not Douglas Canfield.
10:51
And so I actually think I wasn't disappointed with Webb.
10:56
I actually thought it the, the, the, there were moments that,
11:01
well, I'll tell when I, when I watched episode 4, I turned to
11:04
the person I was watching it with.
11:06
Bear in mind, I was a little drunk at this time.
11:08
And, but I, I, I stem, I said, I think that's the best episode of
11:11
Doctor Who I've ever seen. I was, you know, and I knew that
11:15
that was the episode because that's the episode where
11:17
everyone dies. That's the episode where the
11:19
shit really hits the fan. But I remember thinking that has
11:22
not let me down. That's.
11:25
I think that might be the scariest episode of Doctor Who
11:28
ever. It, it is.
11:29
And also, and also because it's not like it is in the book,
11:32
because Terence Dix is doing the book from the script and in the
11:35
script, that's those the film sequence at Covent Garden just
11:39
says something like there is a fight, Blake is killed, you
11:42
know, that's it. All of that other stuff with
11:44
those havoc boys. And I noticed Canfield gives
11:47
every single one of them a line, which is very sweet of them.
11:49
You know, all of that stuff is entirely this.
11:52
Can feel this. It's not.
11:52
Relentless, isn't it? They just keep coming.
11:55
When they're really climbing over the crates, they start
11:58
dragging them down. It is just terrifying.
12:01
I mean, I can't wait till we watch it today.
12:02
I mean, my journey with Webber Fear was that I was a little
12:07
disappointed with the soundtrack because it is kind of samey.
12:11
You know, it is down in the tunnels and scary things
12:14
happening because you can't see the horror.
12:17
I used to listen to the soundtrack and get somewhere
12:19
into like episode 4 and be like, OK, you know, I, I kind of want
12:22
to get out of the tunnels now. When I saw it, when I saw the
12:26
execution of it, when I saw that thick atmosphere, I mean, Jesus
12:30
Christ, the bit where they go into that mist and then with a
12:34
gas mask and pull out the and they scream in their heads off.
12:38
I mean, I don't know what it did to the kids.
12:40
It scares the hell out of me. And and also and it wasn't clear
12:43
on the telesnaps. It was like, so do they do the
12:45
effect thing? Is it a practical effect?
12:48
Is it the bubbles? And it was and, and, and it's
12:51
amazing how many things there are in Doctor Who, this thing
12:54
that we've poured over and know how it was made.
12:56
There are certain bits that we go, but I still don't quite know
12:59
how that was done. So there were some mysteries to
13:02
be solved there as well. And and there was a I had a
13:05
slight worry that the web stuff would all look shit, that it
13:08
would look, you know, it would just be a very bad overlay of
13:10
that, of that sort of culture that that mold culture
13:14
superimposed over and you and they wouldn't get it exactly to
13:18
fit where the tunnel was. And it would just be, it would
13:20
just be a bit crap. But actually they mix and match
13:23
how they do it and it's. Really good, everyone's in on
13:26
it. A special sound with those weird
13:28
pulsing noises, just amazingly good.
13:30
So I've sort of done a 180 on it and now I really highly regard
13:35
Web of Fear. Now I can see the skill into
13:38
constructing it. Well, my second question is of
13:40
course utterly facetious, and that is when you're in the
13:43
London Underground nowadays, do you ever imagine you're taking
13:48
part in the web of fear? Because every time I go, I am.
13:52
I cannot think of a certain underground station without
13:57
saying Covent Garden. Oh yes, of course it's an
14:02
underground station. We're standing on the platform.
14:04
But thereby hangs a tale. But no, absolutely.
14:07
And I just mean don't. Jump on the rails, all right?
14:11
I had a game that I played and I even had a, I've never told
14:14
anybody this. I even had a book.
14:16
So I, I played a game where I where there was web in the caves
14:21
and there was loads of soldiers and I played the different
14:24
soldiers and I sort of created this story and I and I and I
14:29
wrote down there were, you know, 3 corporals, a load of privates.
14:33
Private O'Hara survived right to the aim.
14:35
He ended up being very, very hard.
14:37
But but but I, I, I and various and somebody was a trader.
14:41
And so I did a sort of a sort of license free version, a
14:46
copyright free version of the Web of Fear where I was all
14:49
these different soldiers and I would and they split off into
14:51
different groups and I play and I sort of improvised this
14:54
adventure. It was I was just playing a game
14:55
really, but but I didn't know how the story was going to end.
14:58
And sometimes, you know, I would kill people off and, and I
15:01
played that for quite some time. But, but I, but I had a sort of,
15:06
as I say, a sort of notebook in which the different people's
15:09
fates were kind of, and who, and, and I think they had
15:11
different symbols for who was in which group and the different
15:14
groups were fighting on different fronts and all of
15:16
this. And that was a game I played
15:17
around my house for quite a sustained period of time.
15:21
I I mean I was like you told me, you were playing a choose your
15:24
own adventure version of the web affair where you were playing
15:28
all the parts. Basically, yeah, wonderful.
15:32
I feel less bad about, you know. In that cliffhanger to
15:35
Revelation of the Daleks in my bedroom.
15:36
Now, do you know? Yeah, I was hurling myself
15:38
behind the sofa, you know, and I was, I was getting webbed and
15:42
all of this sort of stuff, you know?
15:43
Yeah, the. Sofa would make a great
15:45
platform, wouldn't it? Absolutely jump down off that
15:47
onto the rails. I was, I was, I was in AI, was
15:49
in a house on my own, you know, having to there, there are only
15:55
so many Doctor Who things to hand that I couldn't read
15:57
properly that I had to had to make my own entertainment, you
16:00
know. Do you know what?
16:01
Right. I do look back on those times
16:03
where it was just me and Doctor Who and now, you know, I'm
16:06
surrounded by big family of friends who who love Doctor Who.
16:10
But man, I'm a bit nostalgic for it, you know, like, yeah, just
16:14
just finding it all learn doing all the all the education
16:18
watching. I think we had the best of it.
16:21
I don't want to sound like an old 5.
16:23
Go on, I've said it. There was something about the
16:26
Dis to discover it. There's something about the fact
16:29
that we couldn't do what we're about to do, which is just touch
16:32
a button. And it's there.
16:34
The fact that my discovery of the Weber Fear has been through
16:37
first looking at a book that I wasn't old enough to read, then
16:40
reading it at an age when I was probably a little bit too young
16:43
to pick up on everything but enough to understand it.
16:47
Then reading it again later when I did understand it.
16:50
Reading the Doctor Who archives and I then I had the issue of
16:52
Doctor Who magazine that had the had the the cast list and the
16:56
the episode endings and then reading the nostalgia in article
17:02
in Doctor Who magazine which gave some bits about it.
17:05
At this point, knowing that this was all I had to learn about it
17:09
because all but but one of the installments was missing.
17:13
Then I saw a clip of it on something which I'll talk about
17:15
when we're doing the episode. Then I got the episode itself
17:20
and then we got the telesnaps of the rest of it, and then I got
17:24
the soundtrack of the rest of it.
17:25
So I've discovered and then it came.
17:27
So I've discovered the Web of Fear 5 or 6 times and I've
17:31
learnt something new every time those New Zealand sensor clips
17:34
came back. So now a modern, a modern Doctor
17:38
Who found or somebody who comes to Doctor Who.
17:39
Now, still, I mean, I do envy the young people who will maybe,
17:43
you know, fall in love with new Doctor Who and then discover
17:45
that there's there's old stuff and and realize.
17:47
Just binge it. I know people have binged it all
17:50
on the iPlayer. And but in a way, in a way, you
17:52
know, I envy them that that they'll be coming to some of
17:54
this stuff fresh and new. But I was so lucky in a way that
17:58
because I was denied it, every morsel was so tantalizing that I
18:04
appreciated every single one of them.
18:05
So I've I've I've got to enjoy this and discover this 5 or 6
18:09
times. And every time it was really,
18:12
really special. And every time it was trying to
18:15
until I finally saw pretty much the whole thing.
18:18
It, it was it, it, it, it was building upon what I previously
18:24
understood or anticipated or hoped for or imagined.
18:28
And that is, is I think better if you could be such thing than
18:32
just being able to go, oh, I'll watch some Patrick Troughton
18:35
today. I'll watch that one click, you
18:37
know. They're so disposable now, isn't
18:39
it? Yeah, I'll watch the whole run
18:41
in six months. You know, whereas I don't know
18:43
the, the archaeology, my archaeology of Doctor Who,
18:45
discovering it, a bit of time in all those various ways.
18:48
You said there, it's in my soul now.
18:50
It's part of my DNA. You know, it's never going to
18:53
leave me. I imagine somebody will binge
18:54
Doctor Who and go, yeah, that was fun, and then move on to
18:56
another show. I mean, I've got no hope.
18:59
I'm in deep. No.
19:00
And you know these because I mean, it's been probably
19:03
existing in my lifetime longer now than it wasn't.
19:06
But you know, there are some people from Tomb of the Cybermen
19:09
has always existed, but I will always remember when Tomb of the
19:13
Cybermen was the likelihood of seeing it was 0.
19:18
You know, we never expected that to come back.
19:21
And then suddenly did and it was like, well, God, we were lucky
19:24
we got that back, But you know, that's probably not going to get
19:27
a a full story back again. Well, there we go and season,
19:30
you know, season 5 when I was at time tot it consisted of and it
19:36
had only just come back. So I know there's some people
19:38
probably who consider abominable snowmen 2A new discovery, but
19:42
abominable snowmen 2 has always existed for me.
19:44
So it was abominable snowmen 2, enemy three web one wheel 6.
19:50
That was Season 5, that was. And I think when they did that
19:54
nostalgia article, they did, there was an article in Doctor
19:56
magazine anyway, that said, you know, Season 5, the monster
19:59
season, only four episodes exist.
20:03
And I and I knew that because I'd got the lists, but actually
20:05
reading it that article, and it was like, God, yeah.
20:08
This is this is such an amazing, exciting year of Doctor Who and
20:12
we've got four single installments and they were the
20:14
and for some reason, those are ones that had been target booked
20:17
fairly early. So there were ones that and when
20:19
you because they were books of them, you kind of thought, well,
20:22
they must. The idea that they wouldn't
20:24
exist seemed mad because it's like, well, they've written them
20:26
as books, so they must, they must exist in several.
20:29
So then when you got the list through and you're like, so
20:31
these ones that are famous Tomb Abominable, snowmen, Ice
20:34
Warriors, Web of Fear, what they they don't exist.
20:38
That seems mad because they're so familiar and those images and
20:41
the photos, loads of photos around of those stories.
20:47
And it seemed mad that you'd got sort of visual representation of
20:50
something that you couldn't actually see.
20:52
I used to get so angry. I would watch On the Missing
20:55
Years, the Weber Fear 1 and that extraordinary sequence we're
21:00
going to sing in a minute of Silverstein in the museum.
21:04
And then it would end and I'd just get so angry I couldn't
21:07
watch anymore. And it seemed to me like clips
21:10
would come back, like Oak and Quill inferior from the deep or
21:14
Van Luchens going down that impeller shaft.
21:17
Not be going. Oh, wait, are you just trying to
21:19
annoy me more? It's just, it looks so good.
21:22
Yeah, I hope. There are people listening to
21:25
this in 20 years time ago. God, those poor guys were
21:27
broadcasting in for time when Fury from the deep.
21:32
Yeah, we know. You're right.
21:33
It's out. We're a bit we're.
21:34
A bit bored of it now, you know. Someone's got it in their
21:37
basement, I know it, and they're enjoying watching it, and
21:40
they're like, well, look, as two of the luckiest men, should we
21:43
go and watch? Oh no, actually not Episode 1
21:46
because that was already there. Then we'll be luckier when we
21:48
start Episode 2, which I can now watch.
21:51
But should we see what delights this has to offer?
21:54
What episode so the one that we've we've always had and
21:58
actually was even was even more familiar to me as we will as we
22:02
will, I'm sure talk about when when we do it.
22:05
So you want to embark upon the the journey to the underground?
22:09
Let's do it. Well, do you want to count?
22:11
I said. OK, so, well, I, I don't know
22:15
about you, I'm being told about the Scott Mills breakfast show
22:19
at the moment. Now I'm pause right at the
22:21
start. The joys of watching it on
22:23
iPlayer. So I've pressed pause.
22:25
So I'm gonna, so I've, I've paused on the opening frame of
22:29
the title sequence and I'm gonna unpause and watch along to
22:33
episode 1 of The Wheel in Space. No, The Wheel in space at the
22:38
Web of Fear. God, you know, in the old days
22:41
that would be taken as somebody said, he said wheel in space.
22:44
Does that mean the wheel in space exists?
22:46
Yeah. Well rumours would watch that
22:48
Mega Fred on Gallifrey based blow up after this comes out.
22:52
Episode 1 of the I'm very tired. I've had an enormous pizza and
22:58
garlic bread and I'm trying to avoid carbs, but I I met a
23:02
friend for tea and I've eaten this thing and I'm, I'm
23:05
absolutely zonked. So the wheel in Space episode 1,
23:08
where which is so boring that actually the two central
23:12
characters have a snooze halfway through.
23:14
I think that would have finished me off, but the Weber fear is
23:17
much more exciting and I'm going to press play in 321 and play.
23:25
You know, I was doing a commentary the other day on the
23:27
mind robber, right, with a non fan.
23:30
So somebody that had never watched black and white who and
23:33
I'm really embarrassed to say he asked me how this incredible.
23:37
He thought the title sequence was extraordinary, but how did
23:39
they do that? And I was just like, I don't
23:42
know. I don't.
23:43
Know well it's a kind of it's another version isn't it of the
23:47
of of the howl round it's feedback yeah it's it's
23:51
feedback, isn't it Yeah, but the and, and they've managed to to
23:54
to work the picture in and make that bleed but I think they've
23:58
rebuilt it haven't they? I, I think, I think they've got
24:03
the various separate elements and have been able to rebuild
24:06
it. I remember Peter Crocker showing
24:08
me on his computer at home the various things he was doing with
24:12
the Trouten title sequence. I remember being slightly
24:15
annoyed with the amount of this that we'd got in the episode
24:20
because when I first saw this, I it was on a cassette of orphaned
24:24
Trouten episodes, which was the first bootleg cassette I ever
24:28
got. And I wanted, you know, an
24:30
example from different stories because I reckoned I'd get more
24:34
bang for my buck. I knew what happened in all the
24:37
stories. What I didn't know is what they
24:38
looked like and what the actors were like and everything.
24:41
So I wanted to experience the different stories.
24:44
So I felt like I was being cheated here because this, this
24:48
was the, this was the. Conclusion of the previous
24:50
story. I I wanted it to be in the base
24:52
with the soldiers and but when you watch enemy of the World
24:56
that ends so abruptly, yeah, it it really does need this because
25:03
the enemy of the world, seeing as it's quite long, it does just
25:06
suddenly sort of stop. Really it's.
25:09
Just there, right, All the tricks that Douglas Canfield
25:11
use. So he's got the camera on a
25:13
tail, so it looks like the TARDIS is literally heading
25:17
downwards. Jamie's against the wall and
25:19
he's just doing different flashlights on the wall to
25:22
suggest the chaos of what's going on.
25:24
They've got no special effects in there at all.
25:26
It's all just trickery. Yeah, yeah, it's and it was
25:30
always we were always very lucky that this episode even, because
25:34
a lot of, you know, watching Doctor Who bootlegs was like
25:37
watching through, you know, a dirty sock.
25:40
This this one was always rather good quality which I was very
25:45
happy about and here we are. This is all on film, isn't it?
25:51
There's stuff in the museum, yes, which so clean, isn't it?
25:56
The the footage. It's yes, and it's a really odd
25:59
choice because it's not until you get to you you see why later
26:03
when you get to the later sequence.
26:04
But but for a scene, and this was quite hastily rewritten.
26:07
This was there was another actor hired and it was supposed to be
26:10
at the the British Museum, wasn't it?
26:12
This is this is a late addition for which I think we must
26:17
credit, if credit is the word Derek Sherwin, because if you've
26:22
read his autobiography, he he, let's say he's his, his attitude
26:32
towards Jewish people is is is, I would say, slightly
26:38
unfortunate and. Why this is as stereotypical as
26:41
it is? And which is why Julius
26:44
Silverstein is Emil Julius in the Terence Dix novelization,
26:49
because I think Dix had probably he never said this or certainly
26:52
didn't within earshot to me. But he was a wily old Cove
26:55
Terence. And I think he he was probably
26:58
exposed to and I know he didn't massively like Derek Sherwin
27:02
anyway. So he he may have been aware
27:05
that Derek Sherwin might have, you know, had a little bit of AI
27:10
won't say a gender, but should we say preoccupation here?
27:13
And so decided to tone down some of what you might might might
27:20
decipher his Derek's showing somewhat stereotypical take on
27:25
on on a Jewish character here to.
27:26
His critic, though, he did the same thing with the names in the
27:29
Abominable Snowman, didn't. He, Terence, is a man of greater
27:33
depth than he ever let on. He was, you know, because I
27:37
think people born today and working today would would be the
27:42
first to sort of go, yeah. And I think you'll find out that
27:44
was a bit problematic. So I sorted it out.
27:46
Whereas Terence would just sort of quietly just sort of did it.
27:51
And, you know, I don't want to be 100% critical of showing
27:55
because actually this exchange is, is rather funny, the fact
27:58
that you've got these two old men insulting each other and
28:02
they do it very well. But there is a, you know, if, if
28:06
you are, if you are concerned with the, with the stereotyping
28:10
of, of, of certain people, you know, I, I think you can, you
28:16
can read it as being, but look at, but look at the way it's
28:19
shot. I mean the.
28:20
Execution is sublime. The lighting in this.
28:24
Scene the, the lighting, the fact that it's all on film, the
28:26
the fact that he goes out of focus as he's further back,
28:29
because you can do that with film and it's so very, very
28:32
beautiful. I don't think there's a more
28:35
hammer scene in Doctor Who than when he starts blowing out all
28:38
the candles and the music swells in and yet he comes alive.
28:42
And like a lot of things in the Weber, fear not, At least the
28:45
actual story itself, which doesn't bear a great deal of
28:48
scrutiny. But that's going to be worth
28:50
talking about, because I. Doctor Who wasn't.
28:51
Against it at all. But why you would have a museum
28:56
with all these very precious and you fill it full of naked flames
29:00
that you have to that you have to blow out beyond Starling.
29:05
Look at that. That is absolutely fantastic.
29:08
The stop. Music as well.
29:10
It's all the piano coming in now, isn't it?
29:12
Well, yes, and at around this time they showed The Shining on
29:14
television and I remember being absolutely gobsmacked to hear
29:18
the music, the music from the Web of Fear in The Shining and
29:22
it. And again, it made me feel that
29:23
Doctor Who was really onto something.
29:25
But yeah, so this wasn't the scene that was in the script,
29:28
but I think they've absolutely gone well.
29:30
We need a really powerful opening and actually I'm quite,
29:33
as I say, I think, I think the stubborn old goat and all that
29:36
sort of stuff it establishes travels very nicely.
29:39
Here's comic timing. Jack Watley.
29:40
Yeah, goat. And I think we think of Jack
29:45
Watling as being an old man because, you know, he, he lived
29:48
to a, a, a ripe old age and, and kept acting during it.
29:51
But you know this. He's aging up in this, this.
29:53
Is what's interesting is when he comes back for downtime he
29:56
doesn't even look as old as he did in this.
29:58
No, I was, I was never wild. It's it's taken me a bit of time
30:04
to to get used to these Yeti. I always thought the beak and
30:11
the big round eyes looked slightly comical and I always
30:14
rejected the idea that the original Yeti were too cuddly.
30:17
I like the original Yeti, but I remember being very surprised
30:20
that they, instead of just going right, we don't like this design
30:24
of the Yeti, so they'll look different the next time they
30:27
actually make that a part of the action.
30:29
And you see the old Yeti, the discontinuity guide bizarrely
30:34
goes, you see the old Yeti change into the new one, not
30:37
deliberate, surely. And you go, what, you think
30:39
they'd get in a prop and do a rollback and knit by mistake?
30:43
Come on. So they've obviously made it
30:46
part of the thing of going, OK, the Yeti are going to
30:49
transmogrify into these scarier versions because they don't need
30:52
to fit in at the Himalayas anymore.
30:54
So we're going to make them more suitable for the London
30:56
Underground. Well, tell me if I'm.
30:57
Mad, right? Tell me if I'm mad.
30:59
But I think the original Yetis and the new Yetis are both a bit
31:04
ridiculous looking, right? But I always feel like they're
31:06
the scariest Doctor Who monsters, the ones you don't
31:08
really take seriously and then they've got their hands around
31:11
your throat. No, no, I never had it like
31:13
that. I, I, I, oh, I like the original
31:16
ones. They've, I didn't mind that they
31:18
look cuddly. I, I, I still thought they, they
31:21
look like kind of what I imagined abominable snowmen to
31:24
look like, but that's partially because I'd seen them on the
31:26
target book covers. So they're my image of what a,
31:28
what an abominable snowman looks like.
31:30
So I don't have an issue with them, but I, I did, as I say,
31:33
the beak in the eyes just seemed a bit unfortunate to me.
31:36
They looked a bit costumey and a bit false.
31:38
But actually, when you see them later in the story, I'm I, I
31:41
actually think that they were work and I've I've got over my,
31:44
my dislike of of them. Troughton's very good as well.
31:47
This isn't it. Any director of the calibre of
31:50
Douglas Canfield can make any design of monster work.
31:54
Can he? Let's be honest.
31:55
I mean, have you seen the Nigel Neil film The Abominable
31:58
Snowman? What do you think?
32:00
Of course you have. I mean, they're very different
32:03
to the ones in that aren't. They they are.
32:04
Yeah. That was a.
32:05
Great movie, you know. Yeah, it's fantastic.
32:08
Now, of course, on my tape of this, I had orphaned episodes,
32:12
but I also had episode 10 of the War Games because I wanted an
32:15
episode of that as as an example.
32:17
So I got the last episode. And of course the episode 10 of
32:19
the War Games also has the shot of the TARDIS in space and you
32:23
see the web start to form and it's like, oh, hang on.
32:25
They've used, they've used them and I knew they'd used and I
32:27
think one of the reasons I got episode 10 was because I knew
32:30
they'd have a clip from it had a clip from Fury from the deep in
32:32
it. And it's, ah, not only have they
32:33
got a clip from Fury, they've got a clip from Weber fear one,
32:36
but that exists. So it's not as exciting.
32:39
I loved all these soldiers. I loved all of this stuff.
32:41
I love Harold, surely. He's great, isn't he?
32:45
Yes. What's the actor's name?
32:47
John Rollison, who was. He in The Avengers.
32:49
He was. He was.
32:50
He was a lead in The Avengers. A lead?
32:53
Yes. Yeah.
32:54
Well, it's. Yeah, he was.
32:56
They go through a period, don't they?
32:57
Where it's it's, it's he's, he's Doctor David.
33:04
Well, whatever he is, yeah, he he's the sort of joint lead with
33:09
with. Right at the start.
33:10
Yeah, right at the start and it and it looks like he's, you
33:13
know, be a regular. But then they set they settle
33:15
down and and and he and he doesn't stick around.
33:18
But for for, for a, for a handful of episodes.
33:21
He's a kind of lead regular. Yeah, and, and he's very and
33:25
he's and without the sort of glasses and the, you know, very,
33:29
he's, he's actually very handsome.
33:31
Yeah, he comes along. Later on in in a very
33:33
dishevelled state without his glasses on, I really sat up at
33:36
that .0. God, all of this, who are you?
33:40
Yeah, it's so fantastic. All of this is very good
33:43
television. Never watch it.
33:44
You're an actor or something. And Jack Watling is having great
33:48
fun here. I mean, you know, this is this
33:53
is this is proper 60s character acting where you go, well, you
33:56
know, you just would just age you up, love.
33:59
But what he does, crucially, is he's very, very funny.
34:02
But then when he delivers the stuff about, you know, London,
34:06
there's a great chance we won't defeat this menace and London
34:09
will be wiped out. This character who has been
34:12
blustery and very funny is the one that says we're all fucked,
34:16
mate. And you totally buy it.
34:19
You need big characters like this, though, I think if we're
34:22
going to be stuck down in the underground for six episodes,
34:26
yeah, you need big characters, I think, to see you through.
34:29
Well, it's what sort of makes it Doctor Who, really.
34:32
And, you know, Doctor Who has always appealed to good actors
34:35
because it gives them a chance to do stuff you don't get to do
34:38
anywhere else. And you only have to.
34:40
And I think we come to Jack Watling slightly, unfortunately,
34:43
through the, the, the, the lens of Deborah Watling's the
34:47
companion. So, you know, it's nice that her
34:48
dad's in it. Jack Watling was a leading actor
34:51
of the day. And if you watch stuff like the
34:54
Playmakers and then the things that he's in, in the 1960s, he
34:59
was successful because he's a very, he was one of the early,
35:01
very, very good television actors.
35:04
And he's a really good TV studio camera on camera actor, which it
35:10
took a lot of actors time to get used to.
35:12
And the ones that got used to it quickly earned a damn good
35:15
living doing good work on telly. And Watling was one of the first
35:20
of those. And he would take Deborah out of
35:22
the equation. He's a big coup for Doctor Who
35:26
and you know, he came and did it and obviously had a good time on
35:29
the Abominable Snowman. And then they say we'll come
35:31
back in a couple of months and and age up and have a lot of fun
35:34
with it. So we we get another bite of the
35:36
cherry, but he gets to give a completely different
35:38
performance. It's very.
35:39
Totally different turn, isn't it?
35:41
He's he's very good in Abominable Snowman, but he's
35:43
absolutely cracking in this hilarious.
35:44
And I, I genuinely have to remind myself that it's a it's a
35:49
man of my age playing an 80 year old or whatever he is and he's
35:53
great. He's really funny.
35:55
Do you think that Patrick Troughton and Fraser Hines could
35:59
have taught us as class on doing business with a dramatic scene?
36:05
I mean, did you see that when he had the thing in his?
36:06
Hand but he drops the thing yeah yeah we missed the bit where
36:10
Jamie touches the console and and and Fraser Hines obviously
36:13
burns his hand on something and pulls it away but also the way
36:16
that all this this stuff is framed by by Camfield who knows
36:21
that Troughton's fame is is worth you know a million and and
36:27
the way that he frames everybody now this I am certainly because.
36:31
Well, this was this is the start of a sequence that I remember my
36:35
mum reading in the paper at the South Bank show, which was an
36:38
arts program. The film they were doing that
36:40
week was about depictions of the London Underground in British
36:44
television. And, and actually all it was is
36:46
really a clip show. But Melvin Bragg comes on and
36:48
goes, London Underground has been on television filled blah
36:51
de blah de blah. I did Tony Clark's Fillmore,
36:53
whoever it was, you know, we say And so, and, and because it had
36:57
mentioned Doctor Who was one of the things we knew that there
37:00
was, I knew there was going to be a clip from the Web of fear.
37:02
This was before you could get episodes and stuff.
37:05
So and we only had I think one or two blank videotapes.
37:10
So I got the videotape and I pressed and I recorded from the
37:13
start of the show. Unfortunately, the first clip
37:17
was from the Web of Fear. So thereafter I didn't have to
37:21
keep the rest of the program and thereafter any other any other
37:26
shows that had clips of Doctor Who or bits about Doctor Who I I
37:30
taped after that. So this was the beginning of my
37:33
compilation of Doctor Who on other things that said, the
37:36
Rock'n'roll years of various. You've still got it.
37:39
I it's upstairs in the attic. Somewhere you've got a
37:41
digitiser. Come on.
37:43
And it's a compilation and and and the clip carried on.
37:46
It goes on right to the point where he says Covent Garden,
37:51
it's an underground station. We're standing on the platform.
37:54
So you get a hot, it's quite a long sequence.
37:57
And so that sequence. So again, when I got episode
38:00
one, it was like, oh, but there's about two minutes of it
38:03
that I've already got so, so ungrateful to half of it.
38:07
Half of it's carry on the enemy of the world.
38:10
Then there's this massive sequence that I didn't quite
38:12
realize was on film and stuff, which is the setup of the story.
38:16
You've got the bit where they find the underground.
38:17
I want the bits with the soldiers.
38:19
That's that was the bit that really sort.
38:20
Of getting an image of you as a child, you know?
38:23
Well, a Doctor Who fan. I've already got that bit
38:25
forgotten. Yeah, never bloody grateful I.
38:28
Oh boy, I absolutely. Love this. 30 years in the
38:31
TARDIS, wasn't it? I remember seeing this clip for
38:33
the first. Time so good and considering the
38:36
period that there's something about, that's Doctor Who, isn't
38:39
it? It's just going pits.
38:40
Cobwebs are a bit scary, aren't they?
38:41
Yeah, let's make the monster cobwebs.
38:44
Well, he looks a bit like William Hardener as well.
38:46
Did you know he? Doesn't fit, doesn't he?
38:47
Yeah, but this this team looks weird, but there's just
38:52
something about the quality of this episode that the lighting
38:55
Clive Layton does the the lighting I was and and here he
39:01
says you'll be branched, burnt up, burnt to a crisp or
39:07
something and branched. Fraser told.
39:09
Because Rob Sherman was saying, I don't know what that means.
39:12
And I mentioned it to Fraser and he said it was a word that chant
39:15
and him made-up to mean FUCKED and and they and they sort of
39:20
and and that trout and sort of threw it in, threw it threw it
39:23
in. But it doesn't it's not actually
39:25
a real word. It doesn't mean anything.
39:27
Do you know? What this is because I've heard
39:28
you say this, Quite a few know a lot actually about stories that
39:33
you read and then got to see. This is one of those rare
39:36
examples where it don't let you down, isn't it when you watch
39:38
it? It does not it's.
39:40
I mean there's a huge amount. I did slightly worry when I got
39:45
conversant in such things that maybe once, you know, because
39:50
quite often you see a lot of film in the first episode and
39:54
maybe in the last and then in, in in between, there's not an
39:56
awful lot. So I, I, I did worry slightly
39:59
that things would start to look a bit cheap or a bit reduced or
40:03
a bit cramped in later episodes. But Douglas Canfield never
40:06
allows that to happen. He manages to make as well as
40:10
being very good with atmosphere and pace, he manages to keep.
40:14
Everything looking damn good and that's Studio.
40:20
But it looks like it's outside. This is this is film.
40:24
You can tell because it's. Like, oh, it is film.
40:26
OK, yeah, I mean, I'm not going to repeat the boring anecdote
40:29
about London Underground getting pissy about them filming in the
40:32
end. Oh no, I guess I have just done
40:34
that there. But I can see why they would
40:36
think that. You can, can't you?
40:38
I mean and. The echo of it, it just sounds
40:41
like they're really there. It's it's an ordinary.
40:44
You know you haven't. I remember at a screening of
40:48
this, Roger Bunce, who was one of the studio cameramen on it
40:52
was was that I, I was interviewing Ralph Watson at.
40:55
Look at that. Look at them sticking their
40:57
heads around the corner in the car.
40:58
It's every little bit of detail. Every story they've got a
41:01
variation of this, another very little Ice warriors when they
41:04
pop out the TARDIS. But you know, they don't
41:08
acknowledge it in any thing that they're doing other than the
41:11
actual act itself. Nobody's winking or raising
41:14
their eyebrows or doing comic acting.
41:16
They're deadly serious in the threat, but they do that.
41:19
The the the bit that they do is is is.
41:21
Funny. Well, in comparison.
41:23
Hunting doesn't let on. I do love this moment, but
41:26
hello, hi from vengeance of ours.
41:28
That is a wink to the camera. It is.
41:30
It's, it's kind of obvious, you know?
41:32
Yeah, yeah. Whereas that that's they, they
41:35
do it, but they, they play it totally straight.
41:38
OK, it's time to address a particular kink of yours.
41:42
OK, I've been meaning to ask you some time now.
41:46
You know, you love playing with soldiers, don't you?
41:48
Soldiers in Doctor Who, Yes. Now what's this all about?
41:53
I I think it might be that because this is the first Doctor
41:56
Who story I read. And then of course, a lot of the
42:00
Pertwee books are the UNIT years.
42:03
So Doctor Who and the having the army in it, It was was part of
42:09
what I thought it did. Do you do you know what I mean?
42:12
It was it was more more stories that I was introduced to when I
42:15
was younger than not had the army in.
42:19
And I wonder if that helped me with quite a mass in the pit,
42:22
which is which is pretty much the the the same kind of
42:25
dynamic. And I think because not
42:28
coincidentally, yeah. And it and it enables you to
42:31
have your your cake and eat it. I guess that you have characters
42:34
that can do all the stuff that your main character can't do,
42:38
which is shoot, blow things up, engage in brave self sacrifice
42:41
and all of that. So the doctor is a counterpoint
42:44
to the militarism means that you could, you can, you can get all
42:47
the enjoyment that you get out of, you know, exciting war films
42:52
or whatever, but with a, a science fiction and fantastical
42:55
element thrown into to, to stop it being too dour or too
42:58
serious. But you get all the advantages
43:00
of that. But you also get something for
43:03
your main character can to contrast to, you know?
43:05
Is it any wonder that when they looked back on the trout in
43:09
years, you know what on earth we're going to do going forward?
43:11
You know, we need to change the format that they looked at.
43:14
Weber fear and the invasion and went yes, let's do that.
43:18
Yeah, you could and it's and it's fascinating now watching
43:23
this story and knowing what is to come because there's no
43:26
reason why it should have done. But it's but it it is such a
43:30
good story that it does deserve to have a legacy, even though it
43:35
it's a story that makes those. Now this is very annoying, isn't
43:37
it? Because they they, they undercut
43:41
with with Anne Travers, the the idea of the sort of screaming
43:45
girl and the sexist depiction of female characters in Doctor Who.
43:49
And quite often that clip of what's a girl like you doing in
43:52
a job like this is, is used out of context as an example of look
43:57
how they treated women in the 60s.
43:58
Whereas actually the story and the character in the script are
44:01
doing the complete opposite. She was.
44:03
Going to come back, wasn't she? They wanted her, Anne Travers
44:06
for. For well, that was the
44:08
intention. It never got not as far because
44:11
then in rewrites for the invasion, Professor Travers's
44:15
role got reduced. You know, Professor Watkins
44:18
isn't in the invasion that much. And I it was decided that it
44:21
would have been a bit insulting to get asked Jack Watling to
44:25
come back to play such a small part in the action.
44:29
So then they changed it for another professor and his female
44:33
relative, you know, with his. Hair under control for once.
44:38
Yeah, so we got. Yeah, Edward Burnham.
44:40
And now I've always wondered why this character, this is Bernard
44:43
G High as soldier whose sole single line is oh, but Sarge,
44:48
I'm on this other job. Quite why we needed a soldier to
44:53
to to carry a, a, a wire drum. And only for him when he drops
44:57
it off in a minute to be told, all right, that you can sod off
44:59
now and off he goes. It's like why?
45:02
Why has that character been introduced?
45:04
And I wonder if it was because he is Duckies.
45:07
I just need a line a bit of work.
45:09
Well, he is non speaking in some of the film sequences and he
45:12
does we'll see in the in the battle that that some of those
45:15
guys get a get a line. But he does then return in
45:19
terror of the Zygons as the soldier who goes Sir, so how?
45:23
Was it here? Of course.
45:25
So. Can't you say anything but so?
45:27
I don't know if it's one long plan that he's sort of got.
45:30
Look, you're not going to do much this week.
45:32
That's him. You're not going to do much this
45:34
week. But in about 10 years, 10 years
45:39
time that no less than that, this, this, this is going to
45:43
pay. You're going to have your own
45:44
arc. You get more money, don't you?
45:46
If you say a line every 10 years, I'll give you a line, all
45:50
right? Yeah, absolutely.
45:51
Now, this, this man here. Yeah, Oh my God, I can't even
45:54
remember his name. Not Arnold the the other
45:56
soldier, Ralph. Watson.
45:58
Right now that's Etis, isn't it? From Monster.
46:01
Astonishing what a wig can do because they don't do anything
46:04
like each other. Yes, and you know, you know who
46:06
else he is. You know, go on, you always do.
46:09
This he's he's Ben. He's Ben in Horafang.
46:12
Oh, I did know. That Yeah.
46:15
Oh, he's hear me. No.
46:17
Yeah, he's he's also got a small part in episode 4 of the
46:21
underwater menace as well on on the screen as as as one of
46:24
Zaraf's guys. So he did 4 Doctor Who's in all
46:28
that did Ralph. But I think Captain Knight is
46:30
his best part. But he's and he's playing very
46:33
posh, but he was actually a a working class Geordie from a
46:36
from a very working class back background and sort of did, did
46:40
you know, plays about being a minor and that sort of thing.
46:43
And he was a he was a nice guy. He was a nice guy, Ralph.
46:46
He's great on the commentary. He's having a wonderful time.
46:49
Monster at the time commentary. Yes, and I take credit for that
46:53
because that was one of my early commentaries.
46:55
And when John was saying about who we should get and I said,
46:58
oh, well, Ralph, Ralph. And he'd done an episode of
47:00
Casualty not that long before. I was like, he's still around.
47:02
He's he's, he's. Whoever this idea was to get
47:04
Nina, Thomas, Toby. Nina, yeah.
47:06
No, John already. John had already got Nina on
47:09
board. Yeah.
47:10
So, so Nina, so do you understand this sort of
47:13
obsession with your episodes of Doctor Who?
47:16
Not really knows. You know what?
47:18
I've I've never listened to that.
47:21
Country it's. Wonderful.
47:22
And obviously I did it now what, 15 years ago?
47:26
So my. God, I just, I love the
47:28
commentary so much. But it is.
47:31
It's a great turn as night, and I think his death is the most
47:34
shocking moment in the whole thing because I was convinced
47:36
he's the hero of the piece, right?
47:37
Absolutely. He's the brave soldier that's
47:39
going out there and getting it done.
47:41
Yeah, and I remember that Doctor Who Magazine article that said
47:44
the most tragic character is Captain.
47:46
He's not really a tragic character, but it was the way
47:48
that Doctor Who Magazine was written in those days.
47:50
So this was this was it. Yeah.
47:53
That was it, that that those. Glowing crates covered in
47:57
cobwebs. But then we get the, the, the
47:59
slight bonus if we get the, the, the, you know, the web or
48:04
whatever it is, the, the culture appearing, just go in and out
48:08
there we go and, and out it would fade and that would be it.
48:15
That was all that existed. What annoyed me was because I I
48:18
had the the Recon, so you'd get the obviously the reprise from
48:23
the end of episode 1 and then it would just freeze.
48:26
I would be so. Angry.
48:28
Of course. Yeah.
48:29
So, so I mean, don't get me wrong, I think they do a
48:31
sterling job with those recons, yeah, publicity pictures and
48:35
telly snaps and they make the sort of the pictures move in
48:38
ways that make it feel more interactive, but.
48:41
But it, it was, wasn't it, it was one of the early recons.
48:46
And so I've it's, it's, it's, it's one of the more basic ones,
48:53
shall we say, Because I remember I used that when we were doing
48:56
running through corridors. It was like, oh, OK, I'm going
48:58
to have to do a lot of imagining here.
49:00
It wasn't, I remember it not being particularly good, good
49:03
quality, but but I'd I'd already by then listen to it obviously
49:07
on the on the BBC soundtrack with the with the narration as
49:10
well. And I knew the story pretty
49:12
well. And it's certainly better than
49:14
listening to it on the the bootlegs that were around an all
49:19
you had for years and years. The amount of time I spent
49:22
straining into a Marco Polo soundtrack game.
49:25
What are they saying? The roof of the what?
49:28
Yeah, with a, with a tape, with a tape recorder held next.
49:32
A big giant tape recorder held next year.
49:34
And you go. You listening, you young fans,
49:37
you don't know how good you've got it all right.
49:39
But but again, I think it was hard earned.
49:43
You know, if, if look, if the object of your dreams turns up
49:48
on your front door stark naked and says, take me.
49:52
I, I don't think you know that experience is as good as if you
49:56
spy them from afar, fall in love with them and have to, you know,
50:00
suck up the courage to speak to them and then take them for
50:02
dinner and then say, oh, are they looking back at me?
50:04
And oh, did they like, you know, that you know, the all, all the
50:09
effort that you have to put in to finally then get in that
50:12
position that you know what? I mean, I couldn't wait.
50:16
They dropped them at midnight, didn't they?
50:17
And I watched both until the morning.
50:20
I just couldn't wait. Yeah.
50:22
Yeah. Well, when they dropped, that
50:26
was, I mean, I've talked about bad timing.
50:30
That was the day that Russell T Davis came to my flat to to do
50:34
that interview that we did. And I was doing the Comedy Store
50:37
that weekend. And they were always very, very
50:39
big gigs. And so that was a that was a,
50:43
that was a big old weekend that the big old, I think it was a
50:46
Friday, wasn't it? And then then the whole weekend.
50:48
So. So that was a that, yeah, that
50:50
was quite an embarrassment of riches when you consider some
50:54
weekends there's absolutely sod all on and nothing to do.
50:57
That was that was quite a big day.
50:59
I'm going to drop a bombshell as we out this episode then,
51:03
because this will show you the difference between me and my
51:06
mark. Both massive Doctor Who fans,
51:08
lifelong Doctor Who fans. Yeah, but he was doing his run
51:12
of watching Doctor Who in order with his best friend, a non
51:15
Doctor Who fan and the Enemy of the World was about.
51:20
He watched Web Affair, but he waited six months to watch Enemy
51:25
of the World in order. No, he didn't touch it.
51:32
And I was there at 2:00 in the morning, you know, and.
51:34
I I mean I'm I didn't do episode 1 when web of when, you know,
51:38
when I watched. Oh, you went straight.
51:40
I went straight in episode 2. I'd seen episode 1 loads of
51:42
times. Well, I didn't need to see
51:45
episode 2, episode 1. My very last question to you
51:48
then is we've seen it a lot, but that is one of the best episode
51:52
ones, isn't it? It's a great episode one, yeah,
51:55
and even better now that I know it's not all there is of it
51:59
because, you know, they're going.
52:00
But the world, we don't see the Brigadier, and we don't see the
52:03
web in the tunnels, and we don't see the.
52:06
Attack on Covent Garden. Yeah, it's, but it's, it's got
52:09
everything, I mean, and that that that that sequence in the
52:13
haunted house for what? For better where you know, it's
52:15
it's supposed to be a museum, but is is an absolute lesson in
52:21
mood and atmosphere and a bit like the story itself.
52:26
It it it actually is slightly nonsensical that it's like it is
52:31
and yet it the art lies in the fact that it is there.
52:34
You know, it doesn't matter. It's done so well that you don't
52:38
need to question it. And if you do, you only spoil it
52:41
for yourself. It it's much better than if it
52:43
had been, you know, just a boring scene and with a
52:46
commissioner in the British Museum or whatever it was
52:48
supposed to be, you know. What was that wonderful quote of
52:51
Terence Dix's? He said that when he had a
52:53
conversation with Douglas Canfield, and Canfield wanted to
52:56
make all these sort of arty movies and things like this.
52:59
He goes, people just keep employing me to make this sort
53:02
of action TV things. And he, you know, and he
53:05
compared himself to a director. I can't remember the director's
53:08
name. And Terence goes, it's a fine
53:11
thing, Dougie, to be that director, OK?
53:14
Just do what you do best. And boy, he does it here,
53:17
doesn't he? Yeah, he's sorry.
53:20
I'm just adjusting my suddenly got pins and needles.
53:23
He's he, he, he really is. He's totally suited to.
53:28
And it's almost like if he did want to do other stuff, he was
53:30
he was too good at the stuff. He was too good at the stuff
53:32
that he was good at. It's not to say he wouldn't have
53:34
been even better. It's it's like actors, you know,
53:38
who get typecast. I'm, I'm sure Roger Delgado
53:41
could have done all sorts of light comedy and other, but the
53:44
fact was he was really good at doing the sorts of parts that he
53:46
did. So people asked him to do those.
53:48
And it's always the frustration when you're in this business of,
53:52
of because it's not a very imaginative one.
53:54
If you do well at something, people hire you to that and,
53:56
and, and and I think directors are like actors and writers and
54:01
comics. You always want to be doing the
54:04
thing that you're not doing. It's a bit a bit like Doctor Who
54:06
fans in that way. We always want the thing that we
54:08
haven't got, which is why if, you know, 25 missing episodes
54:13
turned up tomorrow, the first thing somebody would say, if I
54:16
was in the position where I could announce that on Facebook
54:18
and I'd go, you know, 25 episodes from Season 3 have have
54:22
been returned from the archives. The first thing somebody would
54:25
say, well, it's a shame there's no trout.
54:26
And you know, you go, you know, it's just, it's just the way
54:30
that we are. Why did all the space pirates
54:33
have to? Be there and, and, and, and it's
54:35
a bit like that as an actor or as a director, you know, you,
54:37
you, you, you get something, you go.
54:39
Yeah, but it's a shame I'm not being asked to do the thing that
54:42
I'm not being asked to do. And then of course, if you do do
54:44
a bit of that, you've got an eye on doing the stuff that you're
54:47
not doing now. So you go, oh, I'm a bit bored
54:49
of doing that now. So I need to, you know.
54:52
So I think I think that was Cam Field is typical of his trade in
54:56
that way. But you know, if if, if his
54:59
curse was that he was really good at making particular types
55:02
of he elevates everything that he does.
55:04
You look at his his episodes of other shows.
55:07
The nightmare man, have you seen that?
55:09
Yeah. Oh yeah.
55:10
Yeah, but, but he, he, you know, he has, he has a particular gift
55:14
for there's an episode of the thing called The Lotus Eaters,
55:16
which is Ian Hendry and Wonderventum living out in on,
55:22
on a Greek island. And, and there's an episode
55:24
basically where they're waiting for these visitors to arrive and
55:28
it's a sort of countdown. And do they have a secret?
55:30
And are they going to out their secret?
55:32
And actually it just turns out they're timeshare salesman or
55:34
whatever. But it's, it's an exercise in
55:37
mood and in waiting. And when you've watched the
55:39
other episodes, the other episodes of that, that show were
55:42
directed perfectly well. And they could.
55:44
But you sort of go, oh, yeah. You can see what Camfield's
55:47
bringing to the table here. And it's this isn't a science
55:49
fiction adventure. This isn't even an action
55:51
adventure. But he's good at atmosphere and
55:55
pace and menace and tension. And he's, he's just great.
55:59
I don't want to be that person, but I mean, he did one episode
56:03
of Blake 7, didn't he? Duel And it it, it is an action
56:07
story and it's so dynamic, but it's weird as well with his pop
56:11
artie effects. It's just such a weird piece of
56:14
work. It's totally stand out from
56:15
everything else in that first year.
56:17
Yeah, yeah, he, yes, I can imagine Blake Seven really
56:21
benefiting from from Moore Camfield because that that sort
56:26
of futuristic dystopia would have really helped from the,
56:30
the, the kind of visual style that he has and, and, and the
56:35
way that he he he makes tension and things are just tougher with
56:39
him, you know, and and slightly more realistic.
56:43
Is it any wonder then, that that his protege Graham Hall went on
56:48
to be such an incredible director as well?
56:50
You know, talent breeds talent. Certainly does.
56:53
Certainly does.