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Alcohol Innovation Strategies: Reinventing Drink Personalization with Paul Wolchuk · The Growth Class with Phil Masiello

• 0:18
  SPEAKER_01: Hey everybody and welcome back to the Growth Clast.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_01: I'm your host, Phil Massiello, and today we're diving into the world of CPG innovation and market destruction.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_01: Our guest today is a founder who looked at the massive multi-billion dollar flavored beverage market and he saw a problem.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_01: He said, you know, most options are either loaded with sugar or force you to commit to an entire bottle of flavored spirits.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_01: You might never finish.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_01: So he decided to put the power of customization directly into the hands of the consumer.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_01: So Paul Walchuk, he's the founder of Icing with Two Eyes, I I C I N G, their Milton-based company behind the bartender and a bottle.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_01: They created a zero sugar, zero calorie flavor shots can transform everything from a light veer and vodka soda to a morning smoothie, from navigating the complexities of Canadian retail like loblaws to scaling a portable non-alcoholic brand in a boozy world.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_01: And Paul's got a wealth of knowledge on building the brand that truly sticks.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_01: So welcome to the show, Paul.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks for coming on and taking the time and sharing.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks a lot for having me, Phil.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_00: Appreciate it.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, my pleasure.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_01: How about taking us back a bit, um, you know, sort of the journey that you took uh to found this and and how you were thinking about it and how the whole idea came up.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_00: So I I don't have a background actually ironically in CPG up until the most recent years, but I was a packaging guy for many years.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_00: And I spent a lot of time in the packaging business uh selling to the breweries, and uh so we got to know the breweries really well and understand sort of that sort of the the alcohol beer space, if you will.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_00: Then we got a co-packing company, a couple of us uh opened up a co-packing company, and we're doing a lot of stuff for uh for uh uh Anheuser, InBeb, Labats up here, and we were co-packing lots of uh shock top at one point and so all the flavored beer.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_00: And what was what ended up happening is every money the trucks would roll in with all their flavors and one was missing.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_00: And so after a bunch of weeks, we kind of said, like, what's going on?
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_00: The stuff would show up, and it's like late, we can't pack you know, three out of four kind of thing.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_00: You gotta wait for the whole thing to show up.
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_00: And they had a problem running it all the time.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_00: And so that we hate running this stuff because it clogs up our lines and and it's just it's a pain in the butt.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_00: So we started thinking, well, why don't we just make what and at that point meal was was in the marketplace.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_00: We said, Well, why don't we just take the meal model that new for water and let's make it run for alcohol?
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_00: And that's what we did.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_01: It's fantastic.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_01: Um so you know, um walk us through sort of the the uh the evolution of the offer because you you started out with one focus and then you shifted, I think.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_01: It's if I'm not correct, or you expanded the market, if I'm if I'm correct.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so when we s we started, we we we were kind of focused on like sort of only beer because that's because we were packing lots of beer.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_00: So we said, well, let's try to flavor our beer.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_00: And and so in in the course of doing so, we had you know we had to find a flavor chemist, if you will, that we we sort of matched all the things that we want to do.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_00: We had a bunch of different reiterations to go about doing it.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_00: And then along the way, it all of a sudden you know, vodka sodas became started to become really popular.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_00: And someone said, you know, why don't I stick this in my vodka soda, make an RTD out of it?
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_00: And we thought, well, okay, let's give it a try.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_00: And it worked really well.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_00: Then we started realizing it not only did beer or vodka soda, it ran through the gamut of all the different alcohols.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_00: So whether it was tequila or rum or gin, it didn't really matter.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_00: Then we found out it worked in wine.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_00: Then we found out, well, it works really well in water, it works well in soda water, it works well in juices.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_00: You know, we even have people put it in crappy tasting medicine to make it taste better.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_00: Now, now it's not like what we're not going after that market per se, let's say, but uh, you know, it's what but you know, we've tried it on off the alcohol market because really nobody's out there really doing it the way we're doing it.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_00: You know, so that's and then that's the reason why we went and did that.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_00: So that's part of our challenge as well, just trying to introduce people to how they to use our product in that way.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_00: People know how to do it in water, but people aren't familiar enough to do it in the alcohol section, if you will.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, interesting.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_01: That's interesting.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_01: So so what's the sales process look like for you?
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_01: Like how are you getting customers?
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_01: Um, who are you going after?
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_01: Are you selling it, you're selling it direct, you're selling it through retailers, are you selling it through um the alcohol distributors or all the above?
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_00: So a little bit of a few different things, I guess.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_00: So we're we're mainly in Canada right now, and we are trying to break into the US, and that's sort of one of our challenges as we move as we move forward.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_00: But but we got an opportunity some years ago to get into the Loblaws chain, which is the largest grocery chain in Canada.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_00: We had a connection, and it like ultimately it took two years to finally get in for a bunch of different reasons.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_00: But the, you know, we went and met the girl that was in charge of there.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_00: And the first time, like whenever I do a sales call and I'm in person, I don't talk.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_00: I just say you just gotta try it first.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_00: And when people try it, all of a sudden their eyes light up and they go, now I get it.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_00: And so she said, we gotta have the store, this our product in the store before the end of the month.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_00: And next thing you know, but it took two years later.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_00: So we got a really good opportunity to kind of go really, really wide with a lot of store distribution.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_00: We're just not very deep in a lot of stuff because of our marketing that we have to sort of set out there.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_00: But the process is really, we we've been doing that.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um, we're trying to go sort of take a step back and try to go some some of the local places because in Canada, how they sell alcohol is a little bit different uh than they do in the U.S.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_00: typically.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_00: Not so much beer and wine, that's changed, but the rest of it.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_00: So we're trying to go after some of the smaller liquor stores across the country out of can out of Ontario, that's where we're based out of, to sort of get some traction there and get some learning so we can actually sort of post that and take that to like some of the bigger chains and say, listen, it's working here.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_00: Let's try this in your stores or your chains down in the U.S.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_01: Well, it's all it's all controlled in Canada, isn't it?
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_00: Is it it it is to a certain extent.
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_00: So every province kind of works a bit differently.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_00: Out west, it's a little bit, it's like, you know, for some reason we had our traction, uh, even with the loblaws chains, we we have better traction out west than we have uh locally here in Ontario for some reason.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm not sure exactly the hundred, I'm not 100% for sure for the reasons why, but we we kind of think it's because a little bit less choice and and people uh you know, their advent to try new things and stuff like that are a little bit greater out west than they are sort of locally here.
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_00: But you are right, it's it's a little bit more controlled.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_00: The LCBO here in Canada or in Ontario, I mean, um they have our stuff, they love it, but there's not, they say they're we're not ready for you.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_00: We like we're too slow to move, and it's gonna take a while for us to be able to sort of offer your product the way it should be offered.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_00: So we're hopeful, but I don't know if it's gonna happen this year.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_00: But hopefully within the next little while, we can get in there at some point in time.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_01: What about the states?
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_01: Are you moving into the states?
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and so uh we're we've we've we've made some it we've tried to make some inroads in there.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_00: And it's funny, even the same thing with the some of the liquor shows.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_00: We've had we've actually had some meetings with uh or some calls and meetings with a few of the the bigger guys, and for some reason they they they they they they kind of keep liking us to like the meals and the water enhancer guys.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_00: So I think at one point some years ago, they all tried to get in there as well at one point, and then they didn't really work that well.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_00: And so every time, you know, when we have these calls with them, they go, Well, we've tried this before, it hasn't worked well.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_00: We said, Well, but you haven't tried us.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's like it's no different than a bottle of wine.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_00: You can spend$10 or$30 on a bottle of wine, one tastes one way and one tastes a different way.
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_00: All products sort of lay out that way.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_00: We said, like, you know, the reason why it didn't work is because it people it doesn't work well in alcohol.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_00: People may use it, but they all they didn't have a choice.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_00: They don't they don't know about us.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_00: Once they try us, we have like this 80 or 90 percent pickup of people sample.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_00: So it works really well, and we have repeat customers.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_00: So we kind of say to them, listen, you you gotta give us a shot in there, and and once they try it, they'll kind of go, oh, now I get it.
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_00: Because we've had lots of like people that have used meal and a vodka soda, let's say, and they go, Well, how are you different?
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_00: And I say it's just gotta try it.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_00: And as soon as they try it, they go, Okay, I end up now.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_00: I get the difference.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_00: It's completely different.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_00: So it's more of a sampling thing, and that's that's really where we like we find that when we do that, we get such great pickup because people's eyes uh open up so wide when they when they try it, they go, now I get it because it tastes really good.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_01: But it's not strictly for alcohol.
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_00: Uh it's not.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_00: So it so we kind of focus on that area, but we've also because of the avenue of like so the as everybody knows, the the like the drinking is sort of declining.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_00: It's still a multi-billion dollar industry, and you know, it's still lots of room to play with what the what uh in terms of where where we're trying to go.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_00: But because people want to do mocktails or drink less, so we we you can make a mocktail out of our stuff as well.
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_00: So if you choose to use either non-alcoholic alcohol to make your drink or just put it in a sort of sparkling or soda water, you can make yourself a pina clotta without the alcohol easily enough, either way.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's interesting.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_01: I was just um I was just reading an article about the alcohol industry um because we have we have a client in the uh in the brown liquor industry and uh their sales are just you know declining.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_01: And um a lot of it has to do with the export market, uh and a lot of it has to do with just the amount of of people that are or the the decline in people drinking.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_01: And um uh it was interesting to me because I'm not a personally I'm not a drinker, but not because I have any a problem with it or anything like that.
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_01: I just it doesn't it does it just doesn't work for me.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_01: And so um I never get anything out of it, so I just don't do it.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_01: But um you know, I don't care I don't care what other people do.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_01: But um but yeah, it's an interesting category.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's tough, but you know, I would think that you know, like a Costco or somebody like that, you could probably get in there and sample the heck out of that and uh and and sell tons of it, you know.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so everybody always says to go to Costco, and and what the one thing I've kind of learned, and I haven't we haven't tried it yet, and the only reason why is this because Costco is a bit of a proposition in terms of so you gotta put a multi-pack together, and so if it in it, and that's one thing.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_00: So um if it sells through, then you're you're laughing.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_00: If it doesn't sell through after the 30 days or 60 days, you're taking it all back, you know.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_00: As an as a small company, it's not like we're craft or something like that, or Nestle's where you know that can come back and they can distribute some other way or get rid of it, you know, that that's a huge hit on us.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_00: So for us, we we want we want to get there eventually, but we want to have a little bit more traction in the marketplace.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_00: So people they they've tried us and go, yeah, you know, we've had that before.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_00: So instead of buying one or two bottles, we'll buy a six-pack or whatever it is uh at the Costco and have it blow through.
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_00: So um that's kind of our strategy with the Costco guys.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_00: At least that's what I've that's you know, we've talked to lots of people, and that's kind of usually the consensus.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_00: But you know, I I'm trying to get someone if someone can convince me otherwise, I certainly will have a look at it for sure.
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_01: I yeah, I've never had that experience with getting products into Costco where if it doesn't sell in 30 to 60 days, you're taking it all back.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_01: Uh maybe on a test.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_01: Usually the tests are a couple of stores, you know, usually it's yeah, three or four stores.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_01: We've had a lot of clients go into retail, Costco, Walmart, you know, SoundCloud, everything like that.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I I always say to to our clients when they go into retail to just pick your the retailer you want to be in that you think represents your brand the best.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_01: Because everybody always wants to try and get into Walmart first because it's got massive distribution.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_01: And I always say, Yeah, that's great.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_01: But now you're you're you're maxing out, you're topping out your retail price because everybody's gonna say, Well, I I'm gonna sell it for the same price as Walmart, I want the same deal.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_01: And so um, you know, but Costco, I've always seen really good results and um re really good uh feedback from our from our clients.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_01: But you know and and I think it has to do, I'll tell you what it has to do with and and this is another piece, uh, you know, when you have when you're going into retail and and you're trying to take out an incumbent, right?
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_01: You've got a a hot sauce.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_01: You know, they don't the world doesn't need another hot sauce unless there's something unique and different about it.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_01: But the world doesn't need a new, you know, um pasta, right?
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_01: Unless there's something unique and different about it.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_01: But when you go into a retailer with something that's unique and different, then they can get behind it and you have an easier time, right?
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_01: When when you when you're building a category or getting a product into a category that doesn't exist um or you know is an enhancer, then then you have an easier time.
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_01: So so maybe the stories you're hearing about Costco have to do with you know people trying to go in and see an incumbent.
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_00: So in your history, have you is that what you found?
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_00: So you if you're not taking an income out, you have a unique product, it's uh the the appetite for for sell-through is you know usually sort of two thumbs up.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_00: Is that what you found?
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_01: Well, found it from experience.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_01: I'll tell you a quick story.
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we uh I built early on in my career, I built these these retail stores called the Daily Market in Washington, D.C.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_01: They were grabbing old meal stores.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_01: But we had we had built the first meal site.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um and we had the we were out looking for money, and you know, the meal site, it was early, it was 2000, so it was you know the beginning of everything.
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, and so it was unique, but we had these stores, and the stores did great top-line sales and they did great profit and and great cash flow.
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_01: And we were out looking for money, and all anybody wanted to talk about was this stupid website.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_01: And we kept saying, you know, the website it cost us money every year.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_01: We did it because we're trying to see if we could sell food on the internet.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it cost us at the time, there was no Shopify, WordPress, Magento, Big Commerce, none of that.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_01: It was you had to build your website, cost us, I think,$120,000 to build the first website.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_01: And then, you know, UPS, all that, the supply chain wasn't really built for it.
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_01: So we were losing, we we did like a million in sales, but we we were losing money.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_01: And everybody was enthralled with this whole thing.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_01: Long story short, we we wind up getting acquired by a supermarket chain and they wanted us to incorporate this website as their they made the purchase because they wanted the website to do their you know home shopping, you know, store pickup thing.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_01: And so I had to go down there and work, and I wound up taking over um like the perishable division.
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_01: So I had all these buyers and I had had some experience in in retail prior to that.
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_01: And uh what I you know and when people came in when when people came in to sell their products, you know, you're sitting there evaluating with the buyer and the merchants these products, and you sit there going, you know, well, like okay.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_01: This this was sort of the process, and it works everywhere.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's it's the same process everywhere.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_01: A guy comes in, you're the buyer, you've got this amount of shell space, right?
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_01: And it's taken up with all your products, and you know today how much gross profit per square inch that space is delivering.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_01: So now a guy comes in and he says, let's just let's just say that this is the um snack category, and I've got you know this much space for popcorn.
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_01: Guy comes in with a new popcorn.
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, well, I know what this delivers for me every week.
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_01: So now you're coming in and saying, okay, I want to replace that brand with my brand because I think my brand's better.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_01: But you don't really have much history, right?
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_01: I have nothing to go on, I don't have your product.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_01: So now I have to protect myself because I'm saying, okay, if I put your product in and it doesn't sell, right, not only are you gonna take it all back, but I'm gonna charge you slotting because I'm gonna protect my gross margin, because I'm not gonna put my job on the line for your product, right?
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_01: And then what are you going to do to sell your product?
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_01: What are you going to do?
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_01: And so everybody always comes up with a great marketing plan with these great spreadsheets.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_01: It's going to sell the hell out of it.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_01: And so that's taking out an incumbent.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_01: But if a guy comes in and says, Look, I have this high protein popcorn that people are just going crazy over on the internet.
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_01: We're selling, you know, 10,000 a week on Amazon.
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_01: We're selling, you know, on our website.
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_01: We're selling, now I got something to go on.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I have a category that I can slice out a pie, a piece of the pie, and say, okay, we're not in that business.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_01: We don't have a high protein popcorn with all these flavors.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_01: So I, you know, it makes it easier, right?
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_01: And then from my other experience in in beauty products, when we we developed a line of uh beauty products, Raw Essentials, which I think I told you about, yeah.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_01: We sold we st we started it on the shopping channels, which gave us you know uh national um awareness here, Canada and and in the uh and overseas.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_01: And so then the retailers started coming to us, Ulta Beauty, Sephora, et cetera.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_01: They wanted the product in.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_01: And so we were able to, because we made all this noise and because we built this awareness and did our marketing, we didn't have to, we we were sort of absolved from paying slotting, rebates, discounts, accruals because we already built the brand.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_01: And and so, and it was different.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_01: It was unique.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_01: It was a raw skincare line, which nobody ever nobody had.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_01: So it was a lot easier.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_01: But yes, I think that to answer your question, what I see is that even for our clients, when you go into retail and you have a product that you're just it's a Me Too product, you're trying to unseat the incumbent, then yes, you're gonna be, it's gonna be a tough road.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_01: When you've got something unique and you've built awareness and you've done your job from a marketing perspective, got a much easier chance.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, you know what, I agree 100%.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_00: And then I guess on that, because that's what we try to we try to uh sort of pitch, is that we're creating a new category.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_00: So we're not stealing from anything that's already out there, we're actually adding on top of the the the one challenge, and maybe you can help answer this as well, is some people start start, they have but they get challenged with trying to understand, well, so where like where am I putting you?
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_00: What is that like?
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_00: So what does that look like?
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_00: Because I know, you know, for example, you talk about popcorn, depending on where it is, we're like, where am I where am I sticking you now?
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_00: Am I sticking you in the pop section or somewhere else section?
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_00: Because I don't know what you have for us.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but that's exactly what we try to do.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_00: And that's exactly why we got into law, is we had another use category is that everybody knows what to do with it in water, but we're gonna get the the uh the alcohol drinker coming in there as well.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_00: So now all of a sudden we're you're gonna have that category that's worth X number of dollars.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_00: It's gonna grow uh by something because now they're coming there not only to grab some water enhancers, but they're gonna come grab some alcohol enhancers because that's how we promote our stuff.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_00: And if they want to use it the other way, they can as well, but it's gonna grow the category as an overall.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_01: Where's loblaws putting it?
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_01: Which category?
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_01: And with beverages?
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_00: At the biggest, so right now we're in a couple different spots.
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_00: So right now we're with they put us in the water section, which is where we didn't want to go, but we didn't have much of a choice.
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_00: It was our first foray there, and like I said, I wasn't a CPG guy.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_00: I was just we were happy to get in.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_00: So it's like, yeah, sure, we'll we'll take whatever.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and so we're trying to, we're slowly trying to morph to get out of that section to get us more in where the mixers are.
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_00: Because it because again, in in Canada, they'll a lot of lobles will sell beer and wine.
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_00: So we kind of want to be near that section.
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_00: And usually what happens is they always put the mixers, uh, the mixers of the non-alk is usually next next door, right beside it, typically.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_00: So if we can kind of be next door, neighboring or touching it, then then all of a sudden the connection model helps us a lot.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_00: Like we're getting into, we were in metro before, but we're getting back into metro this summer uh with an in and out program.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_00: And so we're putting a displayer in, and and really, like again, they have their mixers are right beside where the beer and wine is.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_00: Where's we're sticking a display like right in sort of on the crossroads of those two sections and saying, hey, give us stick our stuff in your alcohol or or your drink, and it'll give it some good flavor.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_00: So that's kind of what our messaging kind of sort of relates to and stuff like that.
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, I I think uh I think you should you I think the United States might be an easier market than you think because there there's not now, you know, you're you're 100% right.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_01: There's there's people out there that are gonna say, Oh, we tried this before.
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_01: Those people, you just walk away because they're never they they're never gonna have a positive attitude about it.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_01: But you've got you know, you've got places out there that they can they'll they can see it, you know, and um and it may be in a channel that you don't even think about.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, we have so many different, you know, channels rather than the traditional like liquor store world or um the the traditional supermarket world.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um and then you know, even picking and choosing which supermarkets you want to be in, uh, because you know you've got really progressive supermarket chains like the Wegmans of the world uh and the Costco's of the world, and then you know, you've got the ones that are not so progressive.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_00: So was and so one of the other things, and and I qu I completely agree with you.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_00: So we keep pursuing that.
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_00: So it's like you know, it's like everything else in sales.
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_00: You get you get you know, you talk to a hundred people, they get 10 people, though maybe you're interested in getting two to say yes or you know, whatever the the math is.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_00: But you know, it's not about the no's, it's about the yeses, because even when people say no, it's no different than what you said earlier.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_00: They want to protect themselves.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_00: Buyers are, you know, it all depends on your if the buyer's 25 or 55, you know, the their edict is a little bit different, what the store is doing, you know, want to protect themselves, how far uh, you know, how uh inventive are they going to be moving forward and stuff like that.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_00: But one of the other things that's you know, when you mentioned about the brown the brown alcohol, what so as the alcohol industry is is declining to a sort to some degree, um, but one of the things that we we're trying to do as well is try to partner with some of these these alcohol manufacturers and bottlers because because of that, we're we're trying to say, listen, you know what?
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_00: You here here's another usage case.
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_00: We're giving your customer, so whether it's a bottle of vodka or whiskey, it doesn't really matter.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_00: But let's just use what let's say vodka or tequila, add one of our bottles to with your offering because now all of a sudden your customer now picks it up because no one drinks vodka typically straight up, you know.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_00: Like I'm not you know, for the most part, someone's adding something, whether it's a lime, orange juice, crammed, like whatever.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_00: Someone, you know, don't get me wrong, someone will do shots or whatever.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_00: But for the most part, 90% of the people are adding something to that.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_00: And even now with tequila being huge on the last, you know, like call the last five years, everybody's coming up with a tea tequila brand.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_00: So it doesn't matter, you know, every every celeb out there or a rock star or whoever comes up with these tequila brands.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_00: And don't get me wrong, they're really good.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_00: Some of them are really good, but again, you want to make a tequila sunrise, just you Know add our use our stuff and you add some soda water orange juice and use raspberry, green fruit, cherry.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_00: And it's the best tequila sunrise you'll ever have.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_00: But switch out the alcohol.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_00: But back to my my point about the alcohol is that you know, we're trying to say, listen, you're you're you're declining.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_00: Why don't give your customer an offering that that say, hey, listen, these guys, whatever brand it is, here's an automatic fit.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, can they use it in anything else?
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_00: 100%.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_00: But that you've given them an excuse to use it with your brand.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_00: And all of a sudden someone's gonna remember who you are because you're the one that offered another idea for them.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_00: And so it's all about incremental sales.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_00: And if you can give someone an excuse, whether they're 21 years old, excuse me, or 55 years old, all of a sudden they go, hey on a son, I never seen this before.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_00: Let me give it a try.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_00: And when they go back to the store, they're gonna associate your brand with the icing product and they're gonna pick it up again because they seem to be more innovative.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_00: And so, you know, it doesn't, it's not, it's not a hundred percent working flow through, but if they picked up another 5% on sales because someone grabbed it because icing was attached to it, well, that's a huge market because these guys are doing millions and millions of dollars.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_00: So if if they can if they if someone has a reason to do it because it's something different, that's a that's a great way to pick up that product.
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_00: Because again, back to the thing about, you know, keep the drinking chain that is changing.
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_00: People want what we've we've found is people want creative experiences with this stuff.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_00: So instead of, you know, instead of maybe 20, 30 years ago, the 25-year-old having you know, 10 or 15 drinks on a Friday night, maybe they have two or three, but they want the two or three to be memorable.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_00: So, in that sense, they're looking for some euphoric, you know, wow, look what I had.
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_00: But if they're gonna have one, they go, I want what I want, and uh, and I want to create it the way I want to create it.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_00: So, and it's no different.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_00: You see that in in the marketplace these days, whether it's you know, cereal or any beverage, where it's a soda, there's a million flavors, a million options out there.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_00: You, you know, 20, 30 years ago, you had Coke, gingerel, and you know, Fanta or whatever.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_00: It you know, had four or five different flavors of pop.
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_00: Now you go, there's a thousand different flavors, and you go to the soda category.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_00: It used to be just club soda and tonic water.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_00: Now, like you can't even count how many different categories there are.
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_00: All we're saying is don't buy them, just add it when you want to.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_00: It's convenience.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, you're 100% right.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_01: And and and partnering with you know, one of the liquor brands would probably be beneficial because it'll differentiate them.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_01: I I remember, you know, talking about something memorable, and when people want to drink it, um, you know, they may only have one or two, but they want it to be memorable.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_01: There's this um there's this uh steakhouse called Sullivan Steakhouse here, and uh and behind the bar they have this massive um uh jar with a spigot on it, and it's just all layers and layers and layers of pineapple and they fill it with vodka.
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_01: And then when they make the drink, what they do is they pour the vodka out.
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_01: Now the vodka's been sitting in this pineapple, and then they they like put something in, they shake it up and it gets like frothy, right?
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_01: And it's cold, and then they they pour it into a martini glass, and it goes down like smooth, right?
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_01: And you barely taste the vodka because it's so heavy with pineapple, you know?
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_01: And we were there one night and we're sitting at the bar, we were waiting for our table.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_01: And a friend of mine has one, and he drinks it like really fast.
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_01: And I went, and he's going, man, this is great.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_01: You barely even taste the vodka.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_01: And I looked at my wife, I said, This is gonna be bad.
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_01: I said, We're gonna wind up driving him and his wife home because they're both pounding them.
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, like three or four of them, and and they were memorable.
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_01: And uh, you know, we wind up sitting and he's he continues, and I'm like, dude, you gotta slow down.
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_01: It's not gonna work out the way you think it's gonna work out.
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_01: And the next thing you know, we're literally before dinner was even finished, carrying his ass out of the bottle of the restaurant.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_00: That's awesome.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_01: You know, and I put him in the car the next day, you know, we uh we called him and his wife, and I said, you know, I guess that was memorable.
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_01: That was great for gonna be memorable.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_00: See, it created a unique experience that whole that the vodka with the pineapple.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no doubt about it.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, not to say, not to say you would do it every week or whatever, but yeah, you might go back there again and say, okay, you know what, let's try this with somebody else.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_00: And then, you know, maybe it worked, maybe it happens, maybe it doesn't, or whatever, but it but you have a story to tell.
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_00: And and and that's part of the that's part of you know the whole thing is that you you that it's a memorable moment.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_00: Like you'll remember that story for the rest of your life, and you'll probably you'll tell it another hundred times before, you know, before you know it, kind of thing.
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_00: You know, and and it's funny on that whole the whole thing about the the the pineapple.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_00: So a lot of people when that they try our stuff, they go, Well, you can't really taste the alcohol.
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_00: So I so you know what I always say is the good thing about icing is you can't taste the alcohol.
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_00: The bad thing is you can't taste the alcohol.
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, it's gonna kind of go down really smooth and it because it has this flavor punch to it, and you don't notice that you're really drinking pure alcohol because it kind of mutes it on some level.
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_00: And next thing you know, whether you you you think so you instead instead of having one or two, you have three or four, and next thing you know you're getting carried out.
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_00: But next thing you know, you have a good story to tell.
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_00: Not to say we want everybody to get hammered or something, but it makes it enjoyable and memorable.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_01: Well, as long as you're not the one driving, you know, and you want to get hammered, that's fine.
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I knew that we weren't, you know, like I said, I don't drink, you know, and and well, I you know, for me, it's make makes no difference.
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_01: I I enjoy when people have a good time and think it's funny, but I I just knew that he was gonna because you know, it just is so it was so smooth.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, it's a story that he'll tell.
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_01: It's memorable.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_01: He tells everybody when they go there, you know, to to try one, but just have like one or two.
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_01: And it and it's true.
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_01: It's a totally unique, it was a totally unique drinking experience for him.
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_01: But I tell his kids, now his kids are older.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_01: This was a couple years ago.
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_01: His kids are older, you know, and I tell his kids the story, and he gets embarrassed because they say, you know, you don't want to be carried out like your dad was carried out.
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_01: And let me tell you, that was that's awesome.
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_01: You know, man weighs 200 pounds, man.
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, it was funny.
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, hey, we're uh we're almost out of time.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_01: Where can people find your product?
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, if they can they buy it online?
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_00: 100%.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_00: So you can find us at icing.ca, so i-i-c-in-g.ca.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_00: Uh you can find us on Amazon as well.
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_00: And uh, like we said, we're trying to get make some forays into the U.S.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_00: market.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_00: And hopefully sometime later in 26 we'll find us in a few different stores down there to start out with for sure.
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that'd be great.
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_01: I I I look forward to to seeing it and uh really appreciate you taking the time to um to come on.
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's uh I I love the the background story, how you know you started out in your uh doing it in your kitchen and all that, experimenting with it.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_01: And uh I I love that.
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_01: So um, but again, you know, it's it's a way to spruce up boring drinks, even if it's not alcoholic, just uh spruce up your boring drinks.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_01: So uh great, great having you on and and I appreciate it.
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks very much, Phil.
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_00: Appreciate having me on.
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_00: It was a great talk.
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and we'll see everybody next week.
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_00: Awesome.
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.