Latest / Spacious Success / 026 | The Joy Metric: How a CEO Decides What Success Is Worth, with Philippa Moig

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026 | The Joy Metric: How a CEO Decides What Success Is Worth, with Philippa Moig · Spacious Success

• 0:05
  Hi, I'm Dr. Christy Goodwin, a neuro-performance scientist, speaker and executive coach who learned the hard way that chasing success can come at a cost. After burnout landed me in hospital, I made it my mission to help ambitious women who are done trading their health and happiness for high performance.
• 0:26
  On Spacious Success, I share science-backed strategies and real stories to help you flourish as a female at work and beyond so you can stop paying the success tax. Before we jump in today's episode, I want to take a moment to reflect on how this conversation came because the guests may not even realize how it came about, but also because it's the perfect example of something that I really believe in deeply.
• 0:55
  and that is collaboration and connection between women. I believe that collaboration and connection isn't just a nice to have, it's actually necessary. And I think today that many ambitious and accomplished women are wanting connection. We're wanting particularly connection in real life, IRL, and we want that more than ever. And just as an aside, today's guest is Philippa Moy-Gryan, and I met Philippa through one of the most strangest networking events
• 1:25
  The sidelines of our son's football. We crossed paths at school. We've chatted between matches and eventually we realised that we had more in common than just muddy boots, half-time oranges and smelly boys, although they're still the common denominator. They're coming from better.
• 1:43
  Since then, Philippa joined my Amplified program and she was a great support when my husband was unwell last year. And I've had the pleasure of watching Philippa step into a new season of her leadership and watched her step into a new role as a CEO. So this episode is just a reminder for you.
• 2:03
  that sometimes it's the most aligned relationships. They don't actually start in boardrooms. They don't start at formal networking events or in masterminds. They can actually start at school line, on the sidelines of football or in the incidental coffee shop conversation that you start with someone. Connection happens in communities.
• 2:22
  It happens in real life and it happens with other women who are building, evolving and asking bigger questions. So I want you to ask yourself, where can you seek out connection and collaboration? Because when we stop competing and we start collaborating, I think especially as women, we all rise faster and we rise faster with more ease. So welcome to the show, Philippa.
• 2:43
  Thank you so much, Dr Chrissie. And it is such a privilege to be on here. So you've worked with some of Australia's most well-known organisations, Google, PhD, just to name a couple, and you've gone from corporate to cause-driven. Can you explain a little bit about your corporate trajectory? Like how have you got to where you are today? Because I think a lot of us...
• 3:05
  stalk people on LinkedIn and see where their current place of employment is and go, wow, Phillip is a CEO. But I'd love to know how did you get where you are today? Yeah, no, it's a great question. And I think at the heart of it I've always been very active
• 3:20
  values driven and managed to find portions of that in whatever job I was doing, whether that was agency or corporate, that's always been really, you know, integral and fundamental to giving me joy and purpose in what I do. So this is my dream job. I work in a purpose driven organization supporting 28 charities who all support youth who are at risk and vulnerable and how can we create
• 3:49
  The irony in all of this is things don't just magically happen. I think sometimes you're energetically, maybe without even knowing it, working towards whatever it is or whoever you want to be or whatever organization you want to be a part of. But it's always a journey, right? And I did not get this dream job the first time I went for it, which was back in 2023. So even for me to kind of get where I am.
• 4:13
  that in itself was a journey. There was, you know, knockbacks, there was hurt, there was, you know, kind of coming to grasp with why didn't I get the job? But I think there's a beautiful kind of nugget or story in that. And actually when I finally got, you know, the seat in this, this absolutely fantastic organisation, the feedback was, it was actually how you showed up after you didn't get the job, which got you the job.
• 4:40
  And that's probably my favourite part of that story. That is beautiful. And don't we talk to our kids about resilience and perseverance? We talk to our kids about, you know, doing hard things. And I think that's such a potent reminder for all of us that it's not often the easy, direct trajectory that's the most rewarding. It's the one that you've meandered through, that you've struggled. I know Dr. Adam Fraser talks a lot about striving and how...
• 5:04
  when we strive, you know, the reward is often in that process of getting there, not the actual arrival. A hundred percent. And I think, you know, everyone has an active decision in how they choose to show up after receiving news or whatever it might may happen. We are always in control of, well, how do we respond to what happens next? Because that's the bit that is in our control.
• 5:27
  Yeah, and easier said than done in really high stakes moments and at home and at work. Yes. But we now know there are things we can do to build our stress adaptability. We will get to that. I've heard you write before or you interviewed before and you said that the impact that leadership doesn't always look the way we expect it to look. What do you think we get wrong about leadership, especially as ambitious females?
• 5:55
  Oh, that's a tough question. And look, I'll be the first to say that I don't always get it right. I will, you know, I have made mistakes and inevitably I'll make more. But look, I do think as women, we are much more naturally inclined to show that level of vulnerability. And I actually think that is absolutely our superpower and our strength.
• 6:17
  And I know just before we started the podcast, I said I actually had like a really crappy morning, but I chose to share that with my leadership team who happened to be three incredible women. We start our week with what's your number out of five? And I'm normally an eight or a nine or a ten. I'm the energizer bunny. And today I was like, no, I'm having a really shit week, actually. I'm a five. But in sharing that, you know, that's when you see people rally behind you, rally behind the cause, whatever it may be. So I think.
• 6:45
  That ability to just be vulnerable and honest with where you're at is truly the unlock to leading with authenticity. And that's what I'm all about. And I'm really lucky to say I've never had a job where I feel like I can just be more me. And so...
• 7:02
  The key to unleadership is just really be yourself. That's who you're meant to be. Stop trying to be someone else. And I did that, I reckon, for a good 20 years. And only now am I really comfortable in my own skin to just be me and lead in the way that I'm meant to.
• 7:19
  What lucky colleagues you have, because we know that a leader's mood is contagious. We interesting research has just come out of Singapore earlier in 2025, and they actually found that a leader's well-being has a stronger impact on employee well-being than any EAP.
• 7:36
  than any resilience or stress course that you might do. And that is because we, you know, as I said, there's a contagion effect. So I love that you're leading and showing people to lead with that and how fabulous that you could share that you'd had a lousy morning because we're human and that's the reality. And I just think there's such merit in, I often say, share the shiny and the shabby. Yes, I love that saying. I think we've become, especially because of social media,
• 8:06
  You know, I think and ironically, one of the most popular social media posts I have
• 8:12
  shared in recent times was one where I shared how I experienced mother's guilt because I was in Cairns delivering a keynote and not at my son's colour run that he so desperately wanted me to be at. And it had nothing to do with the subject matter that I usually share, but I think it speaks volumes to the fact that we want people. I mean, there's a lot of talk, I think, about being vulnerable and authentic, but actually living it's another thing. So I applaud you for leading that
• 8:41
  but particularly for females. Yeah and I share that I also missed the colour run and oh thank you my nine-year-old was very very disappointed in me so I'm sure we'll cover that but you know sometimes it is also about making choices and you don't always like the choice that you make but yeah I'm sure we'll get into that.
• 9:03
  So it's interesting because in this post that I shared recently about Missing the Color Run, I shared that Shonda, I think it's Shonda Rhimes, so she was a script writer for a big TV show in America. I forget what it was. But she shared at a valedictorian speech that when she was winning at work, she was often not succeeding or doing as much in other domains of her life. Like she wasn't at home putting her kids into bed when she was finishing the script on this Emmy Award winning show. How do you do it all?
• 9:32
  For once, I'm going to answer that question with 100% honesty here for you now. Shonda, how do you do it all? The answer is this, I don't. Whenever you see me somewhere succeeding in one area of my life, that almost certainly means I am failing in another area of my life. If I am killing it on a scandal script for work, I am probably missing bath and story time at home.
• 9:59
  If I'm at home sewing my kids' Halloween costumes, I'm probably blowing off a rewrite I was supposed to turn in. If I'm accepting a prestigious award, I'm missing my baby's first swim lesson. If I'm at my daughter's debut in her school musical,
• 10:12
  I am missing Sandra Oh's last scene ever being filmed at Grey's Anatomy. And I think, especially again, because of the social media, you know, the compare and despair phenomenon with everyone just sharing the A-roll highlights, real, all the accomplishments, the shiny bits. When we don't see and hear the shabby bits, we...
• 10:31
  start to think we need to emulate models that never existed in the first place. I often talk about the superwoman myth. And I actually cringe when somebody says, how do you do it all? And I'm the first to say, I certainly, I don't have it all. And I certainly don't do it all. But I think putting, like, I even deflect whenever anyone says you're superwoman, I deflect that because I think it creates a narrative that women can be superwomen and we can't. So I think sharing those
• 11:01
  Yeah. And there are trade-offs. You know, time is finite. A hundred percent. Your time, your energy and your tension are the most important human currencies. We are constantly making trade-offs for where we spend them. Yeah. Now I'm going to ask, shift gears a little bit, and I'm going to ask, you've been in some pretty fast moving, high pressure environments. Is that safe to say? Yes, that's very safe to say. Let alone your home. Let's be honest. Philippa has two kids. Yeah.
• 11:28
  Three if you include my husband. You said that, not me. We love ads. You've been in some fast-paced corporate environments. Can you be honest and share with us what toll has this taken on your health at times and what have you learned along the way? What have you learned in terms of protecting your health and wellbeing and your energy in those times? Yes.
• 11:49
  Yeah, it's a really good question. And again, I'll say I absolutely have not got it right all the time. But it has cost me, you know, a lot. Sometimes it's even cost me my sanity because when you are in a pressure cooker environment over a sustained period of time, your energy levels just, we talked about this in the amazing course that you ran, but your energy levels get depleted over time. And the biggest thing that I noticed for me...
• 12:18
  is when I'm working 24-7, my energy is getting low, then I'm much more susceptible to getting into that react rather than respond phase because I have less resilience. So I'm self-aware enough that I know that that's the path, but that doesn't mean that I won't go back to that, if that makes sense.
• 12:40
  Um, and sometimes I think it's also about making some really measured decisions about what is success to me. And for me, um, a great man, Chris, Chris Savage actually said this success can be measured by the amount of joy that you have in your life. So joy at work, joy with your family. Um, you know, me, I'm a, I love getting up at four 40 and going to the gym. That's my happy place for one hour before, um,
• 13:07
  everything else in the world happens. So if I can try and find joy in those different areas of my life, and sometimes it'll be up and down, that's pretty critical. And I think there will be moments where you might have to make a really big decision around if that joy is not being sustained over time, and in fact, the trajectory is going down, you probably need to make some decisions. And there was
• 13:32
  One particular scenario where I absolutely loved the organisation, but the client that I was working on, it was just, it was not congruent to me. And what actually broke me in the end was this facade that I had to stand up and lead a team of 70 people and pretend I had my shit together every day and I really did not. And that feeling of not being authentic and trying to rally the troops and keep people going when I was...
• 14:00
  barely hanging on myself was eventually what actually compelled me to make a decision and resign. So, and I'm not, you know, I'm not suggesting that people do that, but that was probably one of the bravest things that I did was resign without having a job to go to because the amount of joy in my life, I felt like that was not something that I was willing to kind of trade off any longer.
• 14:25
  Philippa, I love that. I have never considered joy as a metric of success. Like such a great barometer. And I see this with the executive coaching clients I work with. When they're on the precipice of burnout or perhaps they're in the throes of burnout, one of the first things...
• 14:40
  that I can see is apart from obviously disrupted sleep, usually digestive issues, we call it emotional blunting. So it's nothing how they are. They say blah because they're not actually stressed anymore. Their adrenals are no longer producing cortisol. But one of the other things that I say when I ask them, what are you doing for fun?
• 14:59
  It's almost like this blank stare. It's like I've spoken a foreign language. Yeah. Well, and they're barely even doing that. So I love that, that you're our energy when that's waning. There's no space for joy. So I love that reframe.
• 15:15
  I had a very smart friend once say to me that success is living in close proximity to your values. I love that. I love that. And isn't that a reflection of that story? When you were working on a particular client, you were out of congruence with your values. And it's probably why you're loving the job that you're currently in. I think so. So nicely with your values.
• 15:34
  Yeah. Well done. Absolutely. Now on Spacious Success, we talk a lot about making room, making room for creativity, for integrity, for rest, for family, for relationships, for living in alignment with our values. What do you now do that you prioritise that you might have once overlooked? It can be for your wellbeing, for your health, for your relationships. What's something, I often say prioritise the potent. What's something potent to do?
• 16:02
  Um, we spoke about this, but it was actually a catalyst after we spent some time together. And I think, um, you know, I have a personality, this kind of tenacity and driving, just push, push, push, push, push. But after we spent some time together and after I did your course, I was like, if I just choose one thing, the one thing for me was prioritizing sleep and making that my non-negotiable, because I know.
• 16:27
  If I don't get sleep, my energy levels are going to be low. That's going to impact how I show up for my family, for the people that I lead, for my partners. And when times get tough, I know that my resilience barometer is going to go down. So that's the one that I just don't compromise on anymore. So my whoop tells me, you know, if you've got to get up at 4.40, you have to be in bed by anywhere between sometimes it's 8 p.m. and, you know, 9.30. I love it too. I'm going to be the best 80-year-old ever.
• 16:56
  But that to me is something which is in my control. It's a decision that I make. And I'm also more aware now that say that extra hour or two hours that I could and sometimes feel like I should just stay up and get it done.
• 17:11
  it will actually cost me four hours the next day because I am not as effective. I'm not as energized. I'm not as focused. So sleep is just that one area that I absolutely will not compromise on. And it absolutely has a, you know, an effect on performance and how you can show up and the energy that you're going to give to everybody else the next day.
• 17:35
  Yeah, brilliant. And I call them your ignition habit. And I often get my coaching clients to identify what's the one habit, like what's the bedrock? Jessica Spendlove calls them a domino habit. So if you hit this one habit, everything else is easier. Yeah.
• 17:48
  there's a great book by Greg McEwen and he talks about things becoming effortless. Like what's one thing that you could do? One, one concrete foundational habit. And for you, it's obviously sleep. I'm going to say this is one that most high performers, particularly women struggle with the most for a host of reasons. But as you said, sleep, I often say sleep doesn't impact your performance. It doesn't. It dictates it. Like a hundred percent agree.
• 18:15
  foundational we can't outperform our biological blueprint and unfortunately one of our constraints as humans is that we need sleep and as women we need about 20 minutes more sleep compared to our male counterparts we also know that when we're and a lot of the women i don't know if you saw this in any of your whoop data but when we go through periods of of stress and stress isn't bad in and of itself
• 18:37
  But prolonged periods of stress, you know, what we call chronic stress can be problematic. And what I see with many of the ambitious women that I work with is that when they start to track their stress score on their WHOOP or their aura ring, and they start to notice that when they're having high daytime stress, they're going to be a little bit more.
• 18:53
  over a much longer period of time or when that high stress doesn't get down to the low end of the spectrum, that they inadvertently start waking up between 2 and 3 a.m. I don't know. Yes, I've been there many times. Hired and wired. And that is a surefire sign. I mean, for women, there can be hormonal disruptions as women go through perimenopause, particularly shifts in progesterone, change how we sleep.
• 19:17
  and estrogen as well. But what we also know is that that chronic elevated daytime stress means that when our cortisol begins to peak, as it should, usually between 2 and 4 a.m., if we've gone to bed and our cortisol cup's still quite full, that 2 to 4 a.m. increase makes our cup overflow. And so that's why we lay there wanting and willing ourselves to go back to people that aren't able to. So I'm so pleased and proud that you've found that ignition habit. And I encourage people, it may not be sleep. It often is.
• 19:47
  The other thing I wanted to say, and I applaud you for this, because we know that even just a small amount of sleep debt with a leader has, this is research based, it's not just hearsay, but a leader's sleep debt has a profound impact on their team's psychological safety.
• 20:07
  So when we're underslept, it may not be you, but you may have worked with somebody, a leader before, where they haven't had enough sleep, they send the terse email reply. They are aggressive in their communications. They miss the subtle nuances in behaviour that they might have seen in their colleagues. They make mistakes. Our IQ is significantly impacted by sleep. Have you ever seen that or experienced that?
• 20:31
  Yeah, and I think it's even more pertinent as well with more organisations working remotely. So when we're physically with someone, you know, EQ, the physical sign, someone, are they leaning out, are they leaning in? It's much harder to pick that up. So if you're tired and then you're also trying to run a team even one or two days a week from a virtual point of view, you are absolutely going to miss those cues and you're probably going
• 20:57
  less patient when it comes to identifying what's the problem how can we work through it so yeah I really couldn't agree more one other thing which I will cheekily sneak in outside of sleep is I love my coffee I think you know this about me so the other thing that I've also really tried to commit to is I don't have my coffee until I wake up
• 21:20
  after an hour, which is hard for me. Sometimes I want to get up and have a coffee and really keeping, minimizing my coffee. So no more than two and nothing after 12. I also find that really has an impact on me physiologically across the day as well. Thank you for sharing that. And did you make those decisions based on your WHOOP data? Like, did you see more than two coffees, your stress increased or your sleep declined?
• 21:43
  Not necessarily, but we, you know, I didn't realize that you should let your body really wake up naturally, just give your body that 60 minutes. So I start with, you know, it's really simple things, but whether I go to the gym or not, I start with my glass of water and I just hang on for that 60 minutes before I have my first coffee. And even if I don't, you know, feel it, I know that that's going to serve my body much better than just, you know, being over caffeinated, which will then all.
• 22:11
  affect my ability to go to sleep. Yeah. And some listeners might be wondering, because I know when I share this in keynotes and in coaching sessions, we encourage people from a biological perspective to delay having their first coffee, particularly caffeine, for that first 60 minutes. And one of the reasons is our cortisol is at its peak in the morning. Well, it should be if we've got a normal cortisol awakening response. And then if we add to that, the adrenaline and cortisol we get from our caffeine, we
• 22:38
  But the other reason is that caffeine blocks adenosine receptors. And there's a small amount of adenosine left in our brains when we wake up. It's a molecule that should build up. And so it should be high in the night. That's what makes us yawn and go to sleep. But there's a residual tiny amount that's left over in the morning. And if we drink coffee, it blocks that adenosine. And that adenosine eventually builds up and comes back around biscuit o'clock, which is that 2 p.m. slump. So with any of these habits, I often say to people, take them for a test drive. You know, they're not a tattoo.
• 23:07
  um see if they work and that's where using wearable devices can help and listening to your body like that sounds like what you did and saying this just yeah absolutely well done um now you've definitely navigated some big chapters in work um and also parenting what's your take on the term work-life balance do you think it exists um or have you found a different or a better way to reframe it
• 23:31
  I don't think it's balance. I think, you know, sometimes you're in the kind of flow and you'll be like things are really good, like things are balanced right now. I actually think it goes like this. So as my husband and I will often, you know, talk about if I know that there's a really intense period coming up, I'm going to signal that to him because it means I'm going to be around less and I'm going to need him to pick things up, you know, a little bit more for me. Yes.
• 23:59
  And we kind of just agree. He is the primary caregiver to our children. So I can do this job that I love. And I, you know, when there are those moments, I'll pitch in as much as I can. But there are, you know, sometimes I might not see the family for four or five days. I'm traveling or whatever it may be. So I think just accepting the fact that you're not always going to get it right all of the time, that's actually an impossible feat. No one, if you meet someone who's doing it, let me know. I'd love to speak to them.
• 24:28
  Yeah. And then also kind of just putting that time horizon on it. So when I actually took this job five months ago, I hadn't actually done that work of putting a time horizon on the intensity. And he said, you know, he calls me shorty. He's like, shorty, it's going to be six months. You know, the first six months is going to be really hard. And until he had actually helped me put that time horizon on, I hadn't really thought about it. So I'm going to be a little bit more.
• 24:53
  I guess it's communication and it doesn't have to necessarily be your partner. My dad helps a lot, but I do have a great support system around me. And when I know in advance, okay, that's going to be a tough week, I'm pulling in that support system to have as least disruption as possible on the kids and make sure things just, you know, keep moving along at home as best they can.
• 25:16
  And then equally, when I get those moments of downtime, I really try and make sure maybe even a bit forcefully that it's quality time together because I don't have a lot of time with them. So the time I do have, I've got to make sure that it's quality time and I've got to make sure that it counts. I love that. And thank you for acknowledging the support. I think there's, I call it the female facade, and I see a lot of incredible accomplished women working.
• 25:41
  But they don't openly discuss or share the support that they get. And there's this assumption that they're doing it all. That's that superhuman myth. And so I genuinely applaud you for explaining and articulating the support that you get. I think it's one thing to ask for support. It's another thing to accept it.
• 25:59
  So I think it's and again, I love that that time frame you put on things because we're asking for support from a partner. I'm not having time parameters. We think this is forever. So I love that. Yeah, that they're really good tips. I also loved you were doing a hand gesture for those people who are listening and not watching the podcast. Philip was talking about how.
• 26:19
  like work life is a bit like up and down. Is that? Yes, absolutely. Peaks and troughs. Yeah. And I, a visual for people I love, cause I don't like the word work life balance either. Cause I think for a tightrope walker to walk on a, like a rope, that both ends of the tightrope have to be in tension. So otherwise they wobble and fall off. And so balance suggests that there are two competing forces. So it just creates negative connotations.
• 26:44
  a more playful way that I picture work-life integration or blend or whatever you want to call it is imagining, you know, the horse carousels. Yes. Yeah, yeah, the merry-go-round. One horse is going up and another horse is going down. And some people use the burner on your stovetop analogy. So when, you know, the work burner is really high or the horse is up,
• 27:05
  Maybe my, you know, domestic duties are a little bit lower. Maybe that's when I outsource or I delegate. So I like that as a visual because I think so many people are chasing a goal that doesn't even exist when they're looking for this elusive work-life balance.
• 27:21
  Yeah, or if they achieve it, it's just it's not sustainable to do that over time. Yeah, love that. So what have been some of the non-negotiables or the boundaries that have helped you manage both ambition and motherhood?
• 27:36
  I'm still working through that and I definitely don't have all of the answers, but I would say going back to what I mentioned just before, when we do have time together, making sure that that's quality time. So even if it's forced fun, I'm like, okay, we're going to go out for a walk.
• 27:54
  whatever it might be. Yeah, it is making sure that it's quality time and making sure that, like, sometimes life, when it's so busy, it can all feel like, even in the downtime, okay, we've got to organise and do all the administration for next week. So especially with ads, my husband, like, how do we carve out time? And again, we don't do it as much as we should, but to just...
• 28:16
  have a moment for us to connect or I might do something with, you know, my boy, Archer, or my daughter, Mila. But just finding those little moments to actually do something that brings you joy, brings you connectivity, and which feels like it's really quality time. Yeah. My husband, Nick, and I have recently...
• 28:37
  All the last couple of years we've enjoyed it. We've started going, when we can coax the 15-year-old to babysit his brothers, we've been going off and having floats. Oh, I love that. You can do a couple's float and silent, although the last one we did, we listened to a yoga nidra, relaxing thing. He was very sceptical. He absolutely loved it. But finding, as you said, being intentional about carving out that quality time and things that you enjoy doing as well, really important stuff.
• 29:07
  Yeah. And it doesn't have to cost money. You know, sometimes it might be literally, all right, we're going to go to the beach and we'll have a swim together. It can be like just those little moments like that. So you've been wearing a whoop strap for a little while, haven't you?
• 29:20
  Oh, yeah, I would say maybe nearly two years now. Okay. So what are the metrics that matter to you? Are there any, I mean, there are so many you can look at, and I say to all of you, you can become bogged down in all of the data. What are the key things? Like on a regular basis, what do you look at to know that you're on track with your performance and wellbeing? Yeah.
• 29:39
  It's probably sort of the three main ones. So recovery, sleep and strain. And I'll look at it specific to if I've done a workout and I really wanted to push myself or what did that look like. Sleep is probably the one thing that I look at every day when I wake up.
• 29:55
  On my way to the gym, I'm like, how was my sleep last night? Because I know that that's going to pretty much inform how I perform at the gym. What does my day look like? And then recovery as well. Like if I'm in, you know, if I'm in the yellow or the red, that's when I feel actually like, whoa, I've really got to actually do something about that. So it's actually listening to the WHOOP advice of...
• 30:20
  If your recovery is particularly low, they are days where I'll cut myself some psych and say, whoops, actually telling me not to push today. This is, it's not the day for that. So physically, mentally, how do I just create those moments to maybe bring a little bit more downtime or balance into what I'm doing so I can keep going so that it is sustainable over time. So they're the three metrics that I would look at every day, sleep, recovery and strain.
• 30:48
  Awesome. And I love that because I think for a lot of high performers, we often intellectually know that we should slow down or work at a slower cadence on that day. But when you see your data on your wearable device, and it doesn't have to be a whoop strap, whatever device you use, it is almost a corroboration or like really making it tangible because I think a lot of people are passive. 100%.
• 31:12
  And I know like when, especially if I travel, I don't know if you find the same thing, but even just a short flight, like a trip to Melbourne from Sydney is enough to really like mess with my recovery, my HRV and my sleep in particular. And I used to physically know that, like I didn't need a wearable to tell me that. But now that I can see that, I know that if I keep going, I'm going to enter the red zone and more often than not red zone is.
• 31:34
  and a declining HIV means I'm about to get sick. I saw that data ironically last week. Thought I could magically push through and lo and behold lost my voice. Philip and I were trying to talk on the weekend but didn't have much of a voice. So I think it forces us to confront some of those biological constraints that we have. Absolutely. Now, you joined my program Amplified last year, and I know after you did it, you started playing
• 32:01
  paying closer attention to how you feel, not just how you function. Are there any data points, and I think you've possibly just answered that, that you keep monitoring or any habits that you've held onto since the program that have really set you up for success in your new role?
• 32:17
  I would say going back to the sleep, that's a really critical one. And we also talked about this in your program. But if I've got, you know, if it's day where I'm working from home, if I feel like genuinely quite exhausted, I'm going
• 32:33
  I will literally go and lie down for 10 or 15 minutes. And it's just a tiny little battery recharger, which makes me more efficient, more effective, more productive for the rest of the day. And I never would have done that five years ago. You know, there's connotations of like, that's laziness, that's whatever it is. You know, you can't have a nap on the job. But I actually think about it now in terms of the level of performance that I can give
• 33:03
  What that 15 minutes buys me in time and energy is, you know, it's quite game changing. So again, women, especially, you have to be kind to yourself to say, I'm actually going to give myself that 15 minutes and I'm going to do that guilt free because I know I'm going to be a higher performer as a result of it.
• 33:21
  And just a nicer human. Like I don't say. Yes. But if I've taken it, my body was telling me it needed. Exactly. I make that affect my kids after school and I've done that too, not just serve yourself from the cupboard and good luck. I love that you said that we need to give ourselves permission to do that too. And it is, like I often say, rest is a responsibility. It's not a reward. And I think we've got a misguided notion of what rest is, that it's frivolous or that it's unnecessary.
• 33:49
  As you said, we are far more productive. You know, I often say when we rest, we rise. So taking that rest. And if you don't feel comfortable, you even say it's 10 minutes of laying down. There's a lot of research around a term that was popularised by Andrew Huberman called non-sleep rest.
• 34:05
  And non-sleep deep rest is basically yoga nidra, but it's a 10 minute progressive muscle relaxation. You can listen to it on Apple Music or on Spotify. And it's literally 10 minutes that guides you through a progressive muscle relaxation. It mimics what happens in your brain if you'd had a sleep. So huge amounts of time. It's not going off to the day spa or doing an hour's yoga class like 10 minutes. I think it's achievable, hopefully for all of us.
• 34:30
  There is something else actually that you mentioned. I was like, oh, my goodness, I do that. I do that. And it is when you get these little moments of rest or downtime, be intentional about using them. So I think I saw you write a post. It was maybe, you know, if you go get your nails done or whatever it is, people are scrolling or if you're getting a massage. Yeah, I went past a reflexology place and every single person who was getting their feet rubbed.
• 34:55
  was on their phone on their phone so I used to this is bad but I used to take my phone into the sauna and I'm doing emails and you know the sauna is really a rejuvenating your body experience so after I read your post I was like okay I'm gonna be more intentional even in those little five or ten minute moments rest means rest no phone actually just downtime love that
• 35:20
  So you're now in the leadership position. And if I was to give you a magic wand, and we'd love that, if you could redesign how businesses, how does the corporate world, how do government organisation, how do workplaces in general support working parents, particularly working mums, what are some practical, tangible things that you would try to change?
• 35:39
  Well, I think what we talked about before, just that creating that element of permission and guilt-free. So if it's, you know, most working mums and dads I know, they're in at the crack, but they'll also leave at, you know, maybe four o'clock to go and do drop-off. But then I also know that they're working again late at night. So it really requires two things. One is, you know, that the employee proves themselves as being trustworthy and reliable and, you know, that the employee is being trustworthy and reliable.
• 36:05
  that then creates a really safe space for the organisation or the leader of that organisation to do what you need to do. And I've got people on my team who, you know, they'll text me because they're so proactive and so amazing at communication. And I'm like, I don't need to know any of that stuff because I trust you implicitly. You do you and I trust you to do the work. And anything else that comes up, I guess a big one for me is anytime anything family comes up,
• 36:33
  I will be very clear and overt in stating family first, what can wait and creating absolute permission for that person to deal with, you know, either it might be a child or a parent or something traumatic has happened.
• 36:49
  go and deal with that and feel fully supported to do that. So they're probably two little things, but I will go back to saying, you know, it's always on the employee to show up and create that level of trust and transparency for the organisation or the leader to say, you know, I've got you, I back you, you go and do what you need to do and do that guilt-free. Yeah, it's a reciprocal relationship, isn't it? A hundred percent. Yeah.
• 37:14
  One of the big things I work with companies on is creating their digital guardrails. So actually articulating what are our digital norms, practices and principles, because I think we're thrust into remote and then now hybrid work. But we've never really articulated what our tech expectations are. Yes. Oh, I like that. Yeah. What are our digital expectations? Do I have to respond properly?
• 37:34
  It takes all the Teams chats after hours, you know, even, and we have to do this legally in Australia now because of our right to disconnect legislation. It's the onus on the sender or the receiver to be sending emails after hours, you know, coming up with those digital boundaries in particular, because otherwise, I know from a lot of the females that I work with, they often take, not take advantage, they utilise information.
• 37:57
  the flexible work arrangements that they have, but they almost feel a sense of obligation to compensate. So they are working at 11 o'clock or they're, you know, at their kids sports practice, but feeling like they need to be responsive to all the team chats and emails. So taking the time to actually articulate what your digital norms are and what the parameters are for flexible work is just, I think, really important.
• 38:19
  Yeah, and also kind of signalling, hey, like I'm out for the next hour and a half because I'm doing something that's really important. And then it means everyone can actually rally and support you to really go and do or be where you need to be as well. So communicating that can actually create a better outcome as well.
• 38:36
  Yeah, I love that. My mum always says, be where your hands are. You know, they used to say, be where your feet are. Oh, I was like. Be present, like be where you're, because I think many of us supposedly have flexibility, but we're at sport triaging the crisis in the office. And so that's right.
• 38:53
  It's not that genuine flexibility that we want. And I love, without putting another thing on your place as a leader, we also, and I'm sure you do, in fact, I know you do this, is that we need leaders to walk the talk because it's one thing for a spouse that we've got flexibility and that you're going to be family first. Yeah.
• 39:09
  But if you don't toe the line and you don't embody this yourself, your employees and your colleagues do not feel safe to do so. So I really encourage leaders, you know, you've got a responsibility for your own well-being, for your sleep, as you've really well articulated today, but also for truly talking about what you do to have flexibility as well.
• 39:31
  Yeah, that's a great shout. I'm like, I need to bring that into our weekly whips. There you go. Talk about it more. Yeah. Yeah. And share it, like be transparent. Because again, and again, without putting burden on you, like a leader has such a strong contagion effect on the culture, on the wellbeing, on the performance of the team. And when people thrive, businesses thrive. Like I truly believe that. I couldn't agree more. Yeah.
• 39:55
  Well, we're going to wrap up there. I'm going to say huge thanks for your time, for your honesty, your transparency. There are so many threads that we've pulled on today. Where can people find out more about the work that you do and the charity that you support? Oh, I love that. Well, you can follow me or connect with me on LinkedIn. So Philip Moyk.
• 40:16
  one L, two Ps, or you can go to the Unlimited website, which is spelt UNLTD. Yeah, because, you know, we're all about creating passion with purpose and, you know, it's a great opportunity for people to really think about the great that they can do in the world and who we're here to serve. And for us, that's young people who are doing it tough.
• 40:37
  Well, thank you for the work that you're doing. My son has told me some of the things by my son, that the work that you do. Oh, I would love to hear that. I will let you know. I'm not quite sure he's quite nailed it because according to him, you go to a lot of fancy places where you get dressed up. Mostly I'm out in the country. I thought so. Yeah, but thank you for the work that you do and thank you for sharing today. I hope the listeners have found that helpful and they've got pragmatic ways that they can experience spatial success.
• 41:07
  And thank you so much for having me, Dr. Chrissy. It's been a real privilege. I'll see you on the sidelines. See you then. Bye.