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The Surprising Truth About Your Spiritual Health (with Chad Jarnagin) · The Daily Writer

• 0:08
  SPEAKER_01: Hey friends, welcome to episode 105 of the Born to Create Podcast.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_01: I'm your host, Kent Sanders, and this is the show where we explore the mindset, habits, and skills to help you make a bigger impact in your creative work.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_01: Do you remember the classic Tootsie Roll Pop commercial?
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_01: This played on TV all the time when I was a kid, so if you are under probably the age of 35 or 40, you probably don't remember this, but anybody my age and older probably does remember this.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_01: Here's how the commercial went.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_01: A little boy walks up to a cow and he asks, How many licks does it take to get to the center of a Tootsie Roll Tootsie Pop?
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_01: And the cow responds, I don't know.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_01: I always end up biting.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_01: Ask Mr.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_01: Fox.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_01: So the boy goes to Mr.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_01: Fox, who says the same thing, and then he goes to a turtle who also has the same reply.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_01: Finally the boy goes up to a wise old owl who takes three licks and then ends up eating the pop with a loud crunch.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_01: The dejected little boy walks away having never gotten his question answered.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_01: Then the announcer says, How many licks does it take to get to the center of a Tootsie Roll Tootsie Pop?
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_01: The world may never know.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I mentioned that story today because that brings us into the theme of what we're talking about here on this show and the guest that we have to help us to talk about this topic, and that is getting to the center.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_01: Everybody, it seems, today is in too much of a hurry to find a center in a way that our maker intended.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm really thrilled that I have a guest today to help us to slow down and find that center and really think about this in a healthy way.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_01: His name is Chad Darnigan, and he is an ordained priest in the Anglican Communion as well as an artist and a writer.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_01: He is the author of the fantastic new book called Learning to Be Reconstructing Peace and Spiritual Health, which we reference in our conversation.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_01: He's also the host of the Learning to Be podcast, which focuses on slowing down peace and spiritual health.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_01: Chad spent about twenty years as a Tory musician and continues to write and to play music today.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_01: He's also the founding rector of The Luminous Parish, which is an Anglican mission to Nashville in Franklin, Tennessee.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_01: I asked Chad to be a guest because it's so easy for us to have tunnel vision and to focus on our creative work to the detriment of our souls.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_01: And in our conversation, Chad guides us through some practices to help us to be spiritually healthy as well as to be more creative.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_01: I've titled this episode The Surprising Truth About Your Spiritual Health because here's the surprise.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_01: If we want to be healthier, we've got to stop focusing on just being more productive and getting more things done.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_01: Instead, we need to focus on slowing down, embracing the mystery, and simply learning how to be.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_01: And Chad does an excellent job in this conversation sharing about his journey and encouraging us to focus more on being instead of doing.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_01: So, Jim, thanks for the connection.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_01: I really appreciate it.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_01: After the conversation, make sure and check out the show notes at KentSanders.net slash one zero five.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_01: All right, let's get into the conversation with Chad Jarnigan.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_01: Well, Chad, it is really great to have you on the podcast.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_01: I appreciate you making time to do this, and I've really been looking forward to this conversation.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, me as well.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks, Kent.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_01: So before we get into a little bit of your journey from being a Tory musician to a pastor, I I have to tell you, when I looked at the first page of your book, I thought this is a guy who is on my wavelength because your first quote I think was from Henry Nowen.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_01: And he is uh his book, In the Name of Jesus, which is which talks about reflections on Christian leadership, is my all-time favorite book.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_01: So I thought, man, here's a guy who really is uh is on my same wavelength, so I I really, really love that.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_00: That's pretty fascinating because I uh over the last few weeks I've been doing some other podcasts, and one of those the the same book came up.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_00: So I mean I think that it's it's it's quite a piece of work, but yeah, he's one of those helpful voices that I've read over the years that I I think there's layers of accessibility about him that you just don't get with many writers.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um he's quite a gift.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, he's almost kind of brutally honest about his own shortcomings and his own thoughts, and there's so much humility in his approach that I just love it.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_01: Well, can you take us through your journey from being a musician to a pastor?
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_01: Because that's not a journey we see oftentimes.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_01: So I know you've had an unusual journey in the creative life and in ministry, so I'm anxious to hear a little bit more about that.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, sure.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_00: I've I've always been creative, uh artistic uh in my expression, so that's from a musical background.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um and so but it the short of it is I stumbled into touring while I was in college, and you know, things really weren't working out with the finances.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_00: And uh and so I toured a couple of years before going back to school, and then I moved to Nashville and really dove into it full on there, and had a lot of opportunities with record deals, publishing, and then ongoing touring.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_00: And I went from, I would say during that time, I went from artistry to ministry.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_00: And that was a long process, I think, in my head and in my being, and uh really went from uh an artist to a worship leader, which became a worship pastor reluctantly with that title.
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_00: And um over 15 years, I guess I did that uh in some large churches and some conferences and those types of things, and then out of that moved into the priesthood.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_00: So I find distinctive lanes with artistry, um, music and uh the musical side of that, and then I see another lane with the some would call it the artistry of worship leading, but I would say that there has to be a bit more of a pastoral type of access there, uh, and I moved into that as well.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_00: And then I became the the more I veered toward the priesthood, I the less reluctant I became.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_00: I just kind of really started owning that call, those responsibilities, and that uh the weight of what came with that.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_00: So I've been a priest for about five years now, and I served as a deacon.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_00: Uh that's the way the Anglicans work.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_00: You kind of have to work your way up.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_00: And I served as a deacon before that, and just uh kind of a closet Anglican for about 15 or 20 years before that.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_00: And so when I had an opportunity to worship or kind of be in those environments, I just kind of took all that stuff on.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_00: And that was in stark contrast to the types of environments that I was playing musically within the church.
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, that's it's a bit of the there's there's some lanes that I crossed over the years, uh, the way I'd to look at it to where I am now.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_01: See, this is really fascinating to me because I come from a worship-leading background as well, in very much an evangelical context.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_01: It's what I taught for a long time here at my college and recently switched to more of a communications type of role with online teaching and some other types of things.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_01: But it's been really fascinating to me over the years because even though I come from an evangelical background, I've always been drawn to more liturgical settings.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_01: In fact, I've told some of my students before that if reincarn if reincarnation was ever true, which of course it's not, but if it were true, I would probably come back as an Orthodox or Catholic or something, because there's there's something about that tradition and about that history and about the beauty and mystery of all that that is very appealing to me.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm wondering in your journey if that has been a factor in that as well.
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah, absolutely.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_00: Without question.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_00: I think that most uh and I'm really into the typology and um you know that type of personal awareness.
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_00: Um I have been a five um with a really strong high four wing as long as I've known of it, or before I even knew of that.
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_00: But I think as a creative person, someone who sees the world in its mysteries and its nuances and its beauty, I think that many of us are called toward you know something that we don't even know.
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I think that there's a mystery in that, and I think the orthodoxy and um you know the Eastern types of expressions, the high church um Catholic and Anglican types of environments are compelling because there's a mystery there.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, and there's an otherness, right?
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_00: But really, I think that's rooted in a reverence and a wonder and awe.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_00: You know, there's there's that I don't want to have, I don't have to have all the answers.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_00: I just want to be in it because I feel a sense of connection.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I think that's a hazard thing that I've continued to hear from people like yourself.
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_00: And um, and it's it's fascinating because there is a move toward some of those um streams that are really the oldest streams around, but it's not because people want to really connect to an institution, a large old institution.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_00: It's because they sense uh uh a greater, deeper, older connection there for some reason or another, which I think is kind of beautiful.
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_01: Are you familiar with Robert Weber, the church historian?
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_01: I am, yes.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_01: I remember he he wrote a book years ago called Evangelicals on the Canterbury Trail.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_01: And I've always been fascinated by that because I'd I relate to that in many ways, and and I wonder if a lot of people listening relate to that as well.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_01: You you're in maybe a church setting where you know the sermons are six steps to this or that, and and we do music that's very accessible, it's very pop music oriented and you come away from it many times thinking that's good, but but I really crave that mystery and that beauty.
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_01: Well what would you say to somebody or to those of us who are in those kinds of settings, but still we we crave those elements of worship that are not present.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you can't just go and you know kind of reboot your life in a whole different church setting.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I guess you can.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_01: But for those for whom that's not an option, what's how can they start to meet that need in their own spiritual life without upending their whole life?
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think that there's a personal practice aspect to that.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um I think that book that you mentioned from Robert Weber was a pretty easy find for me when uh I read it pretty quickly and resonated deeply.
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_00: And uh and then I stumbled, you know, kind of pulled the thread on that idea.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, what else can I find that's dangerous like this?
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, right.
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_00: And uh you just kind of find the things that continue to resonate.
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, there was um oh man, and I I'll reference this probably later, but uh almost anything that Ronald Rollheiser wrote, um, he's a Catholic, uh more of an academic theologian type of guy.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_00: He wrote a book called The Shattered Lantern that allowed me to resonate with like this evangelical on the Canterbury Trail, being compelled towards more liturgical practice and even connecting uh a re-tethering to our greater story, this this greater history, and not being so adamantly opposed to anything that smelled historic or liturgical or sacramental.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_00: And so I I encourage people to find if you're in a large setting, a megachurch, or you know, the I affectionately having come from it, um, call it the rock and roll worship circus.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_00: And uh that was that was actually a band back in the day, and and I love those guys, actually.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_00: That was the irony of it all.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I encourage people to find their personal devotion.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_00: You know, uh one thing that I ended up doing when I was on staff at one of the largest churches in my uh town here, I on Wednesday at noon, I would slip out uh from whatever I was doing, and I would put it on my counter.
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_00: I would just know that this is what I'm doing every other Wednesday.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_00: I would go down to one of the small historic Episcopal churches in town that would have a noon Eucharist, and there was usually anywhere from six to twelve people that would show up.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_00: There's no music, there's just this really light litany, like liturgy, and you receive the bread and the wine, and I would do that, and it would be out in like 30 minutes.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_00: And but it was such a life-giving practice for me personally, and uh I kept that to myself.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I didn't talk about it with a and it wasn't that I was ashamed of that or embarrassed by any means.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_00: I just didn't want any kind of misunderstanding.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_00: I wanted to do it for my personal devotion, and I knew in doing that that it was compelling a deeper communion in me, which was essentially an enabling me to do a better job of my worship leading in that context of the the big mega rock world, you know.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_00: And uh I I find that the personal private devotions and practices are incredibly meaningful no matter where you find yourself in.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_01: I know for me one of the one of the most important things that I do, and and I don't do this on any kind of a regular basis, but periodically, if I have a free day sometime, I actually drive down to the Cathedral Basilica here in St.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_01: Louis, which is a beautiful, majestic, historic building.
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_01: And I'll just go sit inside and go walk around and look at the mosaics and spend some time in there because it's uh it's a really unique building because it's on the inside it's more of an orthodox look.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_01: On the outside it's more of a Roman look.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_01: So it's this weird hybrid of a beautiful worship space.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm not Catholic, but when when you go into a space like that, you're automatically transported back in time, almost in a way.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_01: And you have a sense of history and of connection with the divine that that you just don't get walking into a typical evangelical church.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_00: As well as notice where your gaze is lured.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_01: Right?
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um you have to look up, and that's kind of what cathedrals are designed to do.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_00: That's the in the Orthodox models.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, there's a beautiful Orthodox church here in our town, and I'm over there because we know so many people that are constantly being baptized or blessed, or um something happening.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_00: We just love living that type of life with so many different people.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_00: And every time I go in, I just I'm just there is an awe.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_00: There's a sense of awe because it's this beautiful iconography as well as stain glass and other things like that.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's there's a sense of sharing our story, uh, sharing the story of the world of humanity that's found in places like that.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_00: And even if you're not a religious person, you're going to get a sense that something, there's something, uh, some gravitas there.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_00: You know, there's gravity there that a lot of people really can't put words to.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_00: And uh and sometimes maybe there shouldn't be words to it.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_00: You should just acknowledge it.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_01: And that's okay.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_01: I'd love to dive into your your book called Learning to Be Here for a Little Bit.
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_01: Can you uh give us a sense of what prompted you to write this book?
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_01: This is very reflective.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_01: I love the book.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_01: I think it is so needed today, but take us back a little bit and and walk us through the story of why you wrote this book and what you hope for it to accomplish.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_00: Man, I really appreciate that.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_00: Um is my microphone still okay?
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_00: Um it was glitching out on me.
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_00: I'm sorry.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, you're good.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I I really hope that what the work that I've done in this has uh will resonate with people on on deep levels.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that it's a patient work.
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_00: Um a lot of people like to sit down and read a book and be done with it, you know, as soon as they can finish.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um those that I'm hearing are coming back saying they're having to pick it up in the morning, read, you know, a few pages, let it marinate.
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_00: And just kind of uh kind of go from there and and do that little by little by little.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_00: I really hope that you know it it helps people bring into focus.
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I'm a pretty abstract kind of uh person.
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_00: That's the way I am, that's the way I'm wired.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_00: Um I'm not very pragmatic, but in the process of writing this work, I really hoped to hone in from a macro to a micro in some moments of helping people really develop a sense of peace and uh spiritual health.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_00: And so that's really where uh that's my hope is that as as it gets out, the people will actually maybe resonate with one another and have some conversations.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_00: Uh what I'm seeing right now is that people look and resonate with the words uh and say, Oh, you too?
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_00: You you get this too?
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_00: This is resonating.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think that there's going to be some waves of uh access to that, and I'm I'm really excited about that because voices like Henry Nowen resonate throughout the entire book.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um, that was incredibly helpful and encouraging when uh Henry Nowen Society endorsed the book, and that was uh a shot in the arm for me and it's kind of an affirmation of doing the work itself.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I love the book, I I really do, and uh it just now occurred to me as you were sharing that I was trying to think what does what does Chad's writing remind me of?
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_01: And it just now struck me that it reminds me of reading Eugene Peterson.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_01: Because his material very much was the kind of thing that you would you could read a few pages of, but then it was so thought-provoking and so meaningful that you can't just buzz through it or you're gonna do yourself a huge disservice.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_01: So I could very easily see somebody using this for a personal devotion time or personal spiritual reading time or something where they are taking it in small chunks.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_01: Because it's when I say deep, I don't mean deep as in hard to understand or it's a slog to get through, but deep in the way that it really causes you to stop and pause and reflect.
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_01: And my sense is that you did not write this for somebody to r to read in two hours because that sort of defeats the whole purpose of the message of the book.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it certainly does.
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_00: You know, there's this uh there's quite a need, you know, for uh um a recentered, recalibrated, healthy spirituality.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_00: You know, and I I've had a lot of friends uh the who wouldn't probably resonate with uh being called spiritual or religious, but they're finding resonating portions of this book.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_00: And that's encouraging to me, you know, that uh they can see the practical aspect of what it means to slow down, um to you know, lessen the noise in their life and readjust their expectations for those around them, have an awareness of themselves and those around them, and just see what in doing those healthy rhythms, I think that we uh many, many people are are uh gonna be helped by just the attempts that that I believe that I'm trying to make um with this book.
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_00: There's this you know, there's there's no accident that we when we realize that as I refer to um God as I am, that That that already the idea and the the name I am has so many layers to that.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_00: There's uh who was and is and is to come, who always will be.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um but it isn't intended, you know, on us with an an I do.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_00: There's there's this idea of I am and I do.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_00: And and it's really being is more healthy informative than doing.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_00: And I think when we are slower um to live and and uh speak, we become healthier, and it just kind of calibrates everything from uh the ground up.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_00: And I hope that we cover a lot of that in the book.
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_01: You mentioned a few minutes ago your Enneagram type five.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_01: I'm a five as well, so I completely relate to that.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_01: What would you say to people who are a completely different type?
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe they are a very driven person, maybe they're maybe they can't slow down, or m I mean we all can, but maybe they have a hard time slowing down because their personality type goes against that grain of of solitude and silence and reflection.
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_01: Would your book also be accessible to them as well?
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, I believe so.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_00: I I speak to the idea, and I have one specific friend in mind that a few years ago I did this event and I invited him to it, and it was very contemplative and very meditative, and he was coming out of his skin, he could not still.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_00: Meaning, practice slowly like breathing, breathing slower.
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_00: Because what that does is then your heart, your mind, your emotions, your soul will actually calibrate to that slowing.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_00: And I think if you want to look, if you want to be a pragmatist, you can see that as by doing so, it will actually help you to be more productive or to be more focused, quite frankly.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um small patient steps is what I encourage people with, that will eventually lead to a bigger, healthier way of life.
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_00: And uh I think there's lots of practices in that, but I the the first thing I tell people is just be mindful of your breathing.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_00: When was the last time you know you did that?
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_00: For example, if you've ever gone to a legitimate wine tasting, um there the the smollier will say, or whoever's leading this will say, when you have a glass of wine, you're trying something, notice the difference between doing it indoors and doing it outdoors.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_00: Because in doing so, it could be with anything, substitute wine for anything.
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_00: But there is an eye, there's this connection with the oxygen, the the air, the natural breath of creation, kind of making it come alive.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_00: And it's pretty fascinating if you've never experienced like an A B scenario.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_00: Try try moment A and then try moment B, and you will see a difference.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_00: And that's what I kind of equate to being you know willing to at least trying to slow down.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_00: Um I think that's an incredibly helpful thing for any of us.
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_01: One of the things that has been really interesting to me the last couple of years, if I have as I have tried to do more study of success and uh really just some of the world's most successful people, reading biographies and listening to podcast interviews, that kind of stuff.
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_01: One of the most common characteristics of those people is that they all have some sort of mess meditation practice.
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_01: Which I find fascinating because that's exactly the opposite of what you would expect of people who achieve a lot.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_01: So maybe there's something for us to learn there in terms of and obviously we come to it from a spiritual standpoint, but even just the practice of slowing down and becoming aware of your breathing and something very simple like that can have a really powerful effect on every part of our lives.
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_00: It sure can.
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_00: It's a beautiful thing that you know, if you look at the work of Steve Jobs or any um anyone that's like this massive, I think um Bill Gates, I heard something about him through a uh an article that someone wrote that observed his rhythms of life.
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I think it affects um it affects the deepest part of us, the most minute portions of our lives, come from how we live in between the words, in between the projects, in between the big seismic life activities.
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I think that that's incredibly important for us to be mindful of uh of that.
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_00: And and try try to find just practical ways of implementation.
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_00: I think a lot of people get freaked out by the daunting idea thinking that you have to be a monk or go live in the mountains or uh or something like that.
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_00: And that's that's not at all um the way this is.
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's accessible for anyone if you just try it in the slowest, most uh bite-sized piece.
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_01: I'd love to explore for a couple minutes your personal creative practices, and I I know that there are many, and you've outlined uh really a lot of them in your book, but just to give a direct question, what are some things that really inspire you or give you creative energy in the midst of your pastoral and ministry work, of being an author, of doing all kinds of things, what things give you energy creatively?
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I hate to be a uh a one-trick pony, um, but I I would say stillness.
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_00: Because that then that hasn't always been the case.
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_00: I have used I used to have five ideas per day, but I couldn't execute one per month.
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_00: And stillness gives me clarity, clarity gives perspective, and perspective helps with creative energy.
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_00: I would say that practicing creating just for the sake of creating is good and healthy, and I've found more and more times when I find myself sensing anxiety or getting nervous or antsy about something, it's because I'm looking at my to-do list.
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_00: It's looking at my schedule.
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_00: When I pull my calendar up, half of the time I have to take a deep breath before I even open it because I will be overwhelmed.
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_00: And and part of that's just the energy, it it's forecasting the energy that I have to put towards something.
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_00: But from a creative energy looks different from me when I am.
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_00: I have some moments of stillness, and that and that means not ambient, you know, spa music.
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, this is stillness, like silence.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I have three boys.
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_00: When I have three boys, my wife and our dog is just in a normal state in our home, it's very noisy, and it's just life, and it's beautiful, and I love it most of the time.
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_00: And then sometimes I just because I know that that's not always the case, we have rhythms, you know, it's like the tide, it comes in and it goes out, and that's what happens in our home.
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_00: But when I have an opportunity of stillness, I have to take advantage of that because I know that the tide is coming in at about four o'clock.
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_00: And uh there's ways for me, I have uh days where I put on the calendar, write.
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_00: And it's just to write.
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_00: I have notebooks everywhere, and a lot of them are somewhat redundant, but I like the texture of one one day versus the other one, so I just write thoughts.
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_00: And so I feel bad for my wife if um she's the one that has to uh go through all my things after I'm done with life.
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_00: She's gonna not know what to really do with any of this stuff.
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but that there's something about that energy that comes in that stillness.
• 31:41
  SPEAKER_00: I just uh it's vibrant for me.
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_01: It's fascinating that you mentioned that because I have often thought because I'm I've been a journalist, a journaler since I was in my teens, my freshman year of college, and I've thought if something happens to me, what's gonna happen with all this stuff?
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_01: You know, do I do I really want my son reading through all my journals where I've shared all these thoughts that I'd never met anybody to read?
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_01: And do you want to burden somebody with with the expectation that they would even read all this stuff?
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_01: So I don't know.
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_01: That's kind of a good question for those of us who journal a lot.
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_01: What do you actually do with it?
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_01: And and maybe maybe the value is just in the writing of it and and that's enough.
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I would say that as well.
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_01: Unless, you know, at some point after our death we become really famous and then some publisher comes along and edits the heck out of the journals and publishes something against our family's wishes or something crazy like that.
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_01: Not that anything like that would ever happen in the in the book world, you know.
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, sure.
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_01: Well, as we start to wind this down, I do have a couple couple more quick questions here.
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_01: Is there any specific book that has really impacted your life above all others, or a book that you have given away to a lot of other people?
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, certainly.
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_00: There's uh three come to mind.
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_00: Um Everything Belongs by Richard Rohr as an incredibly helpful book, and I've recommended that to all sorts of personalities, and not just contemplative, uh thoughtful, deep thinkers.
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_00: I've I've recommended that to the doers and activators and uh movers and shakers.
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um Walking on Water collection by Madeline Lingle.
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_01: I love that one.
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_00: Is wonderful, right?
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_00: And I've given that away probably more than anything to young, aspiring uh musicians and artists, writers.
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and then the other one that I made mention of earlier I recommend a lot to people is The Shattered Lantern by Ronald Rollheiser.
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_00: Those are incredible books.
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_00: And they all three speak to either the same person or the different people on different paths and seasons of their life.
• 34:20
  SPEAKER_00: It's really, really wonderful.
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_01: If you could somehow go back in time in a DeLorean, I'm a child of the 80s, so the DeLorean has to make it in here.
• 34:31
  SPEAKER_01: If you could do that, what uh what advice would you give your 20-year-old self?
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_00: Well, in short, I would say shut up.
• 34:46
  SPEAKER_00: I that I was constantly active.
• 34:53
  SPEAKER_00: And uh I would tell I would tell the twenty-year-old Chad to slow down, breathe, listen.
• 35:06
  SPEAKER_00: And that humility fosters growth and health.
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_00: But that's great.
• 35:13
  SPEAKER_00: Uh that's probably that's probably a message that I would still say to myself today.
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but my 20-year-old self most certainly would have needed to hear shut up first and then go from there.
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_01: And that's especially true in our day of social media craziness and debates and divisiveness and all that stuff.
• 35:33
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_01: Well, Chad, this has been a blast.
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_01: I'm really glad that we've had a chance to connect on this uh this podcast interview, and I'm so glad that Jim Woods, our mutual friend, has made a connection.
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_01: So I'll have to make sure and tell him thanks for that.
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_01: He's done a lot of that for us as well.
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_00: I love that man.
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_00: He's a great guy.
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_01: How can listeners connect with you and learn more about your book and your work?
• 35:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, they I mean, we have a podcast called Learning to Be, and that's out there on all the podcast mediums and iTunes, and that's one way that would be helpful for people.
• 36:14
  SPEAKER_00: If you went to the site, either learning to be book.com or chadjarnigan.com, and you sign up for the emails, um, I'll send you a free song.
• 36:26
  SPEAKER_00: I would love to do that.
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_00: And um, I'm out there on Instagram and Twitter uh at Chadjarnigan.
• 36:33
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm on Facebook too, there's a page there, but quite frankly, I don't know what it is.
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_00: It just I guess you can just search.
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_01: That's a good I'll have links to all this in the show notes.
• 36:45
  SPEAKER_01: I say that every episode at the end, so my listeners are pretty used to that.
• 36:49
  SPEAKER_01: So that's great.
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_01: Very cool.
• 36:51
  SPEAKER_01: Well, this has been a lot of fun.
• 36:52
  SPEAKER_01: I've learned a lot, and it has been so fun to connect with you, and I'm really excited about the launch of your book and how it's going to bless people.
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_01: So I appreciate the work that you're doing in the world to help to bring us back to a healthy spirituality.
• 37:05
  SPEAKER_01: It's really, really important, and I'm looking forward to seeing all the success that you have in the years to come as well.
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_00: Well, thanks for that, Kent.
• 37:16
  SPEAKER_01: Hey, I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Chad.
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_01: Here are my three biggest takeaways from our conversation.
• 37:23
  SPEAKER_01: Number one is the importance of a spiritual practice.
• 37:27
  SPEAKER_01: A spiritual practice is something that keeps you focused on the spiritual side of life every day, or at least something that you do on a regular basis.
• 37:36
  SPEAKER_01: For me, I try to do my spiritual practice in the morning where I read scripture, I journal, I have a gratitude practice where I simply write down three things that I'm thankful for.
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes I meditate, sometimes I write down what my quote unquote intentions for the day are.
• 37:51
  SPEAKER_01: It changes from from time to time.
• 37:53
  SPEAKER_01: I don't have a set thing that I do every single day.
• 37:56
  SPEAKER_01: It it varies a little bit from day to day and from week to week.
• 37:59
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes it depends on what my what the state of my spirit is and what mood I'm in and how much time I have.
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_01: But the basic idea is that most days of the week I do have a practice and for me the the central thing that I do probably more than anything else is uh is journaling.
• 38:17
  SPEAKER_01: That for me is really kind of a centralized practice.
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_01: So I want to encourage you to start small with your personal spiritual practice.
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_01: Don't get overwhelmed.
• 38:26
  SPEAKER_01: Don't start out you know trying to do an hour's worth of some type of practice every day.
• 38:31
  SPEAKER_01: Start out with just a few minutes, even if it's just sitting and being still and reflecting or writing a paragraph in your journal.
• 38:37
  SPEAKER_01: Whatever that is, I want to encourage you to get started.
• 38:40
  SPEAKER_01: Don't try to be perfect and to start small.
• 38:43
  SPEAKER_01: Takeaway number two is the importance of getting rethered to the greater story.
• 38:48
  SPEAKER_01: And here's what I mean by that.
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_01: For example, I'm an evangelical, I'm a part of a non-denominational group of churches called well, sometimes it's called the Restoration Movement, it's also called the Stone Campbell Movement because of two founders from the 1800s, the early 1800s, who were really instrumental in starting our particular fellowship, or our what sometimes we jokingly call a non-denominational denomination.
• 39:12
  SPEAKER_01: Uh sometimes it's just called the Christian churches and churches of Christ.
• 39:15
  SPEAKER_01: There's several names that that it kind of goes by.
• 39:18
  SPEAKER_01: That's what my college is associated with, and those are the churches that I've been a part of my whole life.
• 39:23
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm an evangelical.
• 39:25
  SPEAKER_01: Now you might be Baptist, you might be Methodist, you might be an atheist listening to this, in which case the second point probably is not is not really relevant to you.
• 39:34
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe you're Catholic or Orthodox or something else that I haven't mentioned.
• 39:38
  SPEAKER_01: Wherever you are in that in that journey of faith, I want to encourage you that there is a bigger story at work aside from just your particular tribe.
• 39:48
  SPEAKER_01: Whatever group you're involved in, whatever tribe you're involved in, there are others who are flowing along that same path.
• 39:54
  SPEAKER_01: And there's a bigger story at work than just what our particular tribe is.
• 39:58
  SPEAKER_01: And I think it's really important to be curious and to learn about other traditions, to learn about the things that they value, to learn about their history.
• 40:06
  SPEAKER_01: And one of my favorite things that I have done with my students over the years at St.
• 40:10
  SPEAKER_01: Louis Christian College, where I teach, is it was a class that I used to teach called Theology and History of Worship, and I loved taking them to Mass at the Cathedral Basilica here in St.
• 40:21
  SPEAKER_01: Louis, which is an amazing piece of architecture.
• 40:24
  SPEAKER_01: It's just the most beautiful building I've ever set foot in personally.
• 40:27
  SPEAKER_01: It's just an amazing building, the Cathedral Basilica here in St.
• 40:31
  SPEAKER_01: Louis.
• 40:32
  SPEAKER_01: I love taking my students there.
• 40:33
  SPEAKER_01: I love taking my students to a couple of local Greek Orthodox churches, which are just amazing as far as the architecture and the sense of design and spirituality and the thought and creativity that goes into those buildings.
• 40:47
  SPEAKER_01: And I I just I love taking my students to those different places and helping them to get a better sense of, hey, there's a bigger story here at work than just your particular group of of Christians.
• 40:57
  SPEAKER_01: So I think that is really important.
• 40:59
  SPEAKER_01: And that's why I loved having Chad on this episode.
• 41:01
  SPEAKER_01: We're not a part of the same fellowship, but I loved hearing about his perspective and his journey because we can all learn from each other.
• 41:08
  SPEAKER_01: There's enough division in the world today as it is, and we do not need more division in the body of Christ.
• 41:13
  SPEAKER_01: We need way less of it.
• 41:15
  SPEAKER_01: And part of that just involves reaching out to other people and learning with genuine interest and curiosity about their traditions and their practices.
• 41:24
  SPEAKER_01: So that's takeaway number two.
• 41:26
  SPEAKER_01: Takeaway number three is the importance of slowing down and being aware of your breathing.
• 41:31
  SPEAKER_01: And this is something that Chad helped us with on this episode.
• 41:34
  SPEAKER_01: When we breathe, this helps us to get clarity and perspective, and it also enhances our creativity.
• 41:41
  SPEAKER_01: But I don't know if you struggle with this as much as I do.
• 41:44
  SPEAKER_01: Probably not, because this is a major, major struggle with me.
• 41:47
  SPEAKER_01: In fact, I was talking to uh my personal business coach earlier this earlier today, and I was talking about how hard it was for me just to slow down and meditate and to be still because as soon as I wake up in the morning, I'm ready to go.
• 42:01
  SPEAKER_01: I'm a very action-oriented, task-oriented person, and it's really challenging for me just to slow down and to breathe and to be still.
• 42:10
  SPEAKER_01: So what I want to do here is I'm going to be silent for 10 seconds.
• 42:15
  SPEAKER_01: And I want you to experience how long this 10 seconds is.
• 42:18
  SPEAKER_01: The podcast isn't shutting off.
• 42:19
  SPEAKER_01: This is just me being silent for 10 seconds, just to give you a chance to pause and to breathe.
• 42:24
  SPEAKER_01: So here we go.
• 42:37
  SPEAKER_01: So that was 10 seconds.
• 42:38
  SPEAKER_01: In fact, I could hear the clock right above my desk ticking away.
• 42:42
  SPEAKER_01: Just take a few seconds each day to pause and to breathe and to be still.
• 42:47
  SPEAKER_01: I'm preaching to myself as far as that goes because I really struggle with that.
• 42:51
  SPEAKER_01: So those are three takeaways that I have gained from this conversation.
• 42:55
  SPEAKER_01: I hope that this conversation has impacted you as well.
• 42:58
  SPEAKER_01: I really want to encourage you to check out Chad's book.
• 43:00
  SPEAKER_01: There will be a link in the show notes.
• 43:02
  SPEAKER_01: Well, friends, those are my thoughts, but I'd love to hear what you think about this episode.
• 43:06
  SPEAKER_01: You can do that by heading over to Apple Podcasts and leaving a rating and a review, or by leaving a comment on this episode at KentSanders.net slash 106, where again you'll also find all the show notes.
• 43:19
  SPEAKER_01: Today's closing quote comes from Vincent Van Gogh, one of my favorite artists, who said, There's nothing more truly artistic than to love people.
• 43:29
  SPEAKER_01: Until next time, remember that you were born to create and designed to make a difference.