Latest / Wrongful Conviction / #371 Guest Host Earlonne Woods with Joaquin Ciria

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#371 Guest Host Earlonne Woods with Joaquin Ciria · Wrongful Conviction

0:01
Speaker 1: On the night of March twenty fourth, nineteen ninety, Felix
0:04
Speaker 1: Costo Rico was walking down an alley in San Francisco's
0:08
Speaker 1: Mission District. Witnesses saw a man get out of a
0:10
Speaker 1: white money Carlo and confront Felix, and the two started arguing. Suddenly,
0:16
Speaker 1: a shot rang out and.
0:17
Speaker 2: Felix fell to the ground dead.
0:20
Speaker 1: The shooter jumped back into the car and sped away
0:22
Speaker 1: with another man at the wheel. By the next morning,
0:26
Speaker 1: rumors were flying around the streets that the shooter was
0:28
Speaker 1: a lifelong friend of Felix's, Joaquin Syria. They had grown
0:32
Speaker 1: up together in Cuba. Word was that the two were
0:35
Speaker 1: in a dispute over money. Joaquin had been out earlier
0:38
Speaker 1: that evening with a friend who drove a white money Carlo,
0:41
Speaker 1: but he claimed to be home with his wife and
0:43
Speaker 1: baby son for the night by the time the crime
0:45
Speaker 1: was committed. After viewing several lineups that included Joaquin's picture,
0:50
Speaker 1: two eyewitnesses id'd him as the man they seen. One
0:54
Speaker 1: witness claimed that she was eighty percent certain and that
0:58
Speaker 1: was close enough for the jury. But this is wrongful conviction.
1:16
Speaker 1: Welcome back to wrongful conviction. I'm Mariline Woods, co creator
1:19
Speaker 1: and co host of the Ear Hustle podcast, guest hosting
1:22
Speaker 1: for Jason Flummerday, and I gotta tell you I served
1:26
Speaker 1: over twenty seven years in prison, and I used to
1:28
Speaker 1: always think about the people who were in here that
1:31
Speaker 1: were actually innocent, you know, dealing with the day to
1:34
Speaker 1: day grinding rigor of prison life. And that brings us
1:38
Speaker 1: to our guest today, Joaquin Sarah, Joaquin, welcome to Wrongful Conviction.
1:42
Speaker 1: Thank you, thank you, cool cool. And here to help
1:46
Speaker 1: tell Joaquin's story is Paige Knap. She's the supervising attorney
1:50
Speaker 1: at the Northern California Innocent Project. Paige, thanks for being here.
1:55
Speaker 3: Yeah, I am super excited to meet you, Arline, and
1:58
Speaker 3: super happy to be with you Morningquin.
2:01
Speaker 1: Joaquin, can you tell me, like, since you're from Cuba,
2:05
Speaker 1: what was your life like growing up.
2:07
Speaker 2: Growing now in Quwa. It was beautiful?
2:10
Speaker 4: It was beautiful, you know for me to be a
2:13
Speaker 4: child growing now in my country. You know, so rein
2:16
Speaker 4: them my family frame and kill what you do a
2:20
Speaker 4: lot of teams you know that you're not able to
2:23
Speaker 4: do in this country. You know, I remember you know
2:26
Speaker 4: that in kill what we to play? You know, in
2:28
Speaker 4: the three to one o'cloud two okline the morning, and
2:32
Speaker 4: it was no danger. Everybody know everybody, you know, because
2:36
Speaker 4: it's an island. I had a royal beautiful Shaoho.
2:41
Speaker 1: Got you, got you, got you. So when you were
2:43
Speaker 1: a youngster, the US and Cuba was beefing. You know,
2:46
Speaker 1: they have a pretty fraud history. The Missile Crisis, the
2:50
Speaker 1: Commonist Revolt, and bargoes. Not really a free flowing dialogue.
2:55
Speaker 1: So I'm just curious, like, what were your impressions of
2:58
Speaker 1: the United States back?
3:00
Speaker 2: Well, let me let me tell you this, man, everybody
3:02
Speaker 2: c the majority.
3:04
Speaker 4: We grow out believing everything that we're watching the TV
3:08
Speaker 4: about the United States. We really believe that Superman really exists.
3:14
Speaker 4: Anything that you go out from United we really believe that. Brother,
3:19
Speaker 4: you know, you know in we watch so brainwatched, you
3:23
Speaker 4: know that when we're watching movie A Superman won the Woman.
3:28
Speaker 2: We really believe that these type of people exist in
3:33
Speaker 2: the United States.
3:35
Speaker 1: You know, unbelievable.
3:37
Speaker 2: So this see how I grow out.
3:39
Speaker 1: And and and and Joaquin, you knew the victim in
3:43
Speaker 1: this case, Phyllis bastar Rica. When you were a kid
3:46
Speaker 1: back in Cuba.
3:47
Speaker 4: You know a Phyllis we all call hi calitles. He
3:51
Speaker 4: was close to my neighborhood, so mini mini minie time.
3:56
Speaker 4: We who to skate from the school to go swimming
3:59
Speaker 4: in the ocean, you know, go go ib some mango
4:02
Speaker 4: sugar cane. Everybody liked to be around Phillis. You know,
4:07
Speaker 4: if you go into a party, you want him to
4:09
Speaker 4: be there. He was only laughing all the time, making
4:14
Speaker 4: a lot of joke. Definitely, he was a good friend, right.
4:19
Speaker 1: And I'm just curious. Did you come from like a
4:23
Speaker 1: political family over in Cuba.
4:25
Speaker 4: My father he was a revolutionary, you know, he was
4:28
Speaker 4: a Commonist. He fight with the Gostro you see, with
4:34
Speaker 4: the cast got the power way. My father was a
4:37
Speaker 4: part of that. Yeah, the majority of my family they
4:40
Speaker 4: really believed, you know, in the Commonies. And it was
4:44
Speaker 4: probably in the house, you know, because we all got
4:46
Speaker 4: different views. Since my ely age, I got really really
4:50
Speaker 4: big trouble to fit in the Commonist party. I got
4:54
Speaker 4: trouble with that. So you know, at the age of eighteen,
4:58
Speaker 4: I was called to be in the army. I was
5:01
Speaker 4: in high school at that time, but they don't care.
5:03
Speaker 4: That was a man that told it called. You know,
5:06
Speaker 4: a lot of young people escape because we don't want
5:09
Speaker 4: to do that, you know, to go fight to some
5:12
Speaker 4: other country, like a lot of joints in Cuba, they
5:16
Speaker 4: were saying to Angola to fight a lot of all
5:19
Speaker 4: these young people got killed, you know.
5:21
Speaker 2: So me and might say, oh, I don't want to
5:24
Speaker 2: do that.
5:26
Speaker 4: So when I was called to be in the army,
5:29
Speaker 4: I remember that I was there maybe for about sismon
5:34
Speaker 4: and I escape. A lot of Johns say do that.
5:37
Speaker 4: After I escape, I go to my family house and
5:41
Speaker 4: I spend some time with my family. Into my father
5:45
Speaker 4: come and told me, and he said, you know what,
5:47
Speaker 4: walking I don't want no trouble with the government.
5:50
Speaker 2: You have to give it, you say, do the right thing,
5:53
Speaker 2: you know.
5:53
Speaker 4: And and I respect my family, you know, I love
5:56
Speaker 4: my father so more.
5:57
Speaker 2: This is how I aim.
5:58
Speaker 4: Then, you know, in prison, you know in Cuba, it's
6:02
Speaker 4: not like right here, you know, right here out waiting
6:05
Speaker 4: something hoppy to your wyoka crying right in two or
6:08
Speaker 4: three days they take.
6:10
Speaker 1: You to court your due process.
6:11
Speaker 4: Yeah, in gil White Diffity in Cilbai, they directed you,
6:15
Speaker 4: Yeah you can be I THEO for one through three four. Yeah,
6:18
Speaker 4: I do never go to court. Yeah, they see how
6:22
Speaker 4: it is in Kuwa Damn.
6:25
Speaker 1: So in May of nineteen eighty, after spending some time
6:30
Speaker 1: in prison, you fled Cuba as a part of the
6:33
Speaker 1: Mario Boat left, which from my understanding was a mass
6:37
Speaker 1: migration of around one hundred and twenty five thousand Cubans
6:41
Speaker 1: that was sanctioned by both Jimmy Carter and Fidale Castro.
6:45
Speaker 1: You were still a teenager at that time, right, yeah,
6:47
Speaker 1: And I want to ask you what do you remember
6:49
Speaker 1: about the boat ride from Cuba to Florida because I
6:52
Speaker 1: used to always see it on the news, you know,
6:54
Speaker 1: individuals on floats and stuff like that coming from Cuba.
6:57
Speaker 1: What what do you remember about that boat ride?
7:00
Speaker 4: Well, Frosseto, to be honest with you, bro, I see
7:04
Speaker 4: a lot of ball when I was in the ocean,
7:07
Speaker 4: you know, and we're talking about a ball that you
7:10
Speaker 4: might can pull twenty or thirty people in that ball.
7:14
Speaker 4: So what the Cuba government was doing need instead or
7:18
Speaker 4: pull twenty or toty people?
7:21
Speaker 2: They who to put too home? Three people in the bowl.
7:25
Speaker 4: So imagining and let me tell you, Mane, I see
7:29
Speaker 4: with my own eyes how a lot of boat this appeal, you.
7:34
Speaker 2: Know, in the ocean.
7:36
Speaker 4: One minute that was next to US, and when I look,
7:39
Speaker 4: it's not a te anomal, it is like it's gone.
7:43
Speaker 4: So it was really, really really it was really ugly,
7:48
Speaker 4: you know, right.
7:50
Speaker 1: So fortunately for you you got here safely and you
7:55
Speaker 1: landed in Key West, Florida. Can you tell me what
7:58
Speaker 1: your feelings were when you first read the United States?
8:01
Speaker 4: At that moment, I feel, you know, I watched Hoppy, Yeah, yes,
8:05
Speaker 4: I wa Hoppy completely.
8:07
Speaker 2: You know that I fleck. I watched Hoppy. You know that.
8:10
Speaker 4: I mean you not a state that I don't have
8:12
Speaker 4: to live it a field no more, I don't have
8:14
Speaker 4: to water.
8:14
Speaker 2: You know about that? I going and they killed bid
8:18
Speaker 2: they govin main't on Sonky like that. I know. I
8:22
Speaker 2: wasched in the most power with fo komtri in the war.
8:26
Speaker 4: So at that moment, anything that they told me will
8:31
Speaker 4: believe it.
8:32
Speaker 1: So over the next few years, you kind of skipped
8:34
Speaker 1: around to a few different cities and you finally ended
8:38
Speaker 1: up in San Francisco living with a woman named Nellie Hernandez.
8:42
Speaker 1: Nelly was a little older than you, and she had
8:44
Speaker 1: six kids. And back then you were hanging out with
8:48
Speaker 1: a couple of your partners from Cuba. Your childhood friend
8:51
Speaker 1: Felix Costa Rica who had also made it to the US.
8:54
Speaker 1: And a guy named Robert Socorro. And there was another
8:58
Speaker 1: cat from Cuba that was a hustling name in Candido
9:00
Speaker 1: ds What did you know about him?
9:03
Speaker 2: You know, Candido Dias, What I know about him? You
9:07
Speaker 2: know that he's a cute one.
9:08
Speaker 4: You know, he was living in San Francisco in the
9:12
Speaker 4: Star Hotel, you know, in nineteen ninety. And I never think,
9:17
Speaker 4: you know, he had any typeo or bad feeling about me,
9:23
Speaker 4: a fat that I know. You know, we're talking sometimes
9:26
Speaker 4: and you know when you got the feeling that you
9:30
Speaker 4: don't click with the person, you know, that's the way
9:32
Speaker 4: I feel, that's the way he feel. But we never
9:35
Speaker 4: let it, you know, pass to the level or having
9:40
Speaker 4: any type of problem with him.
9:42
Speaker 1: Okay, And when you was in San Francisco and me
9:45
Speaker 1: asked us, what was the San Francisco Police Department?
9:49
Speaker 4: Like? So in nineteen ninety in San Francisco Police Department,
9:59
Speaker 4: it was really really really I could root department. I
10:05
Speaker 4: already you know, listening in the three what they were doing,
10:09
Speaker 4: how they brand drag on people car you know, and
10:14
Speaker 4: and all that type of stuff. You know, of course,
10:18
Speaker 4: not everybody not every police is doing you know, some
10:22
Speaker 4: really Torigan, they really got some a lot of bad apple,
10:28
Speaker 4: you know in the San Francis Complete department, h.
10:52
Speaker 2: My twenty four, nineteen ninety.
10:54
Speaker 4: You know, my personal life at that time it was changing,
10:58
Speaker 4: you know for the betro You know, I my baby's mama.
11:01
Speaker 4: You know, Johanna pays about almost about a jayago before
11:05
Speaker 4: my son was born. I was a happy man, you
11:08
Speaker 4: know at that time. I'm oh, my friend, Oh, my friend.
11:11
Speaker 4: What's happy with me too?
11:13
Speaker 2: You know? Roveto socorro he.
11:14
Speaker 4: Was happy if Philidy Jhuto coming to my house. It
11:18
Speaker 4: was a happy time for me, right, you know at that.
11:22
Speaker 1: Time until, of course, your good friend Felix Basto Rico
11:26
Speaker 1: was killed, which happened on the night of March twenty fourth,
11:29
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety. So Paige, can you can you walk us
11:33
Speaker 1: through what transpired that night?
11:35
Speaker 3: Yeah, So what we know is that Felix Pasta Rica
11:38
Speaker 3: was walking down the street with a plastic bag. We've
11:42
Speaker 3: since learned from Roberto SoCoRo that Roberto was in hiding.
11:45
Speaker 3: He had just killed someone and had asked Felix to
11:48
Speaker 3: bring him some clothes and toilet trees and stuff. So
11:51
Speaker 3: he's walking over to the bay Bridge Motel where Roberto is,
11:55
Speaker 3: And in Clara Alley, which is sort of perpendicular to
12:00
Speaker 3: the Baybridge Motel, there are people. There's a guy in
12:03
Speaker 3: a car, Kenneth Duff, and there's a woman up in
12:05
Speaker 3: the window, Kathleen Guovara, and they both hear this loud altercation,
12:10
Speaker 3: this loud argument in the alleyway, and describe these two
12:14
Speaker 3: people kind of walking back and forth interacting with each other.
12:18
Speaker 3: There's a white Monte Carlo that the guy with the
12:19
Speaker 3: gun gets out of and he shoots Felix Pastrica in
12:23
Speaker 3: the street and jumps back in the white Monte Carlo
12:26
Speaker 3: and drives off right.
12:29
Speaker 1: And that even in Joaquin, you were spending time with
12:32
Speaker 1: another friend, eighteen year old George Varilla, who was actually
12:36
Speaker 1: the son of your former girlfriend Nellie Hernandez.
12:39
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah.
12:40
Speaker 4: And Joe Barrela, we who to be real close where
12:44
Speaker 4: he wasched, you know around a nine. Yeah, oh, we
12:47
Speaker 4: who to go to the video a keda all the
12:49
Speaker 4: time we watched Aditta to play video. I'm to be honesty,
12:55
Speaker 4: I feel, you know, even when I watch young I
12:58
Speaker 4: feel like he was my son. Right he God to
13:01
Speaker 4: come to my house almost every two three days.
13:05
Speaker 1: Okay, so can you tell us like what you and
13:09
Speaker 1: you know George got into on the evening of March
13:11
Speaker 1: twenty fourth, before y'all have parted ways.
13:15
Speaker 4: I remembered that nine that wasn't home with my family.
13:19
Speaker 4: You know, I expaid that, you know, to stay home.
13:21
Speaker 4: I was in May and I received a phone call
13:24
Speaker 4: from your So when I got the phone your he
13:28
Speaker 4: started told me and he said, hey, man, what you doing?
13:31
Speaker 2: I said, man, I'm right here. You know, I spent
13:32
Speaker 2: some time with Johanna and with my son. Man. I
13:36
Speaker 2: bol why we don't go to play video?
13:38
Speaker 4: So he conveys me and I go out the way
13:41
Speaker 4: here and he come out to peep me out.
13:44
Speaker 2: It is white Monte Carlo.
13:46
Speaker 1: Oh, George Forriala drove a white money Carlo.
13:48
Speaker 4: He got a white Monte Carlo. He peeped me out.
13:51
Speaker 4: Almost around seven o'clock, we go to that CAA to
13:55
Speaker 4: play video. I remember that we got there almost around
13:59
Speaker 4: seven saving Tody.
14:01
Speaker 2: We what play video? Buado the Blue.
14:03
Speaker 4: He come out and told me and said, hey, what
14:05
Speaker 4: can't I have to go back to my house because
14:07
Speaker 4: my girlfriend she come out from Richmond.
14:09
Speaker 2: So to make this toy show.
14:11
Speaker 1: We leave, and when you left, you didn't go straight home.
14:13
Speaker 1: You enjoyed stopped by Gallon's Bar first, where a lot
14:16
Speaker 1: of Cubans and Puerto Ricans ain't got at to see
14:19
Speaker 1: if you might meet up with a friend of yours there,
14:22
Speaker 1: But instead you ran into another guy, Roberto Hernandez, who
14:27
Speaker 1: was not exactly a friend.
14:29
Speaker 4: We don't get along, you know me and he got
14:31
Speaker 4: a fire side. After I see my friend Manolo, I
14:34
Speaker 4: talking with Manolo for a little while.
14:36
Speaker 2: I got to defight Joe Barrella. Take me home.
14:40
Speaker 4: I got to my house around a twenty five h
14:43
Speaker 4: eight toty Navid, I leave.
14:46
Speaker 1: My how a game and did you know what you
14:47
Speaker 1: was wearing at night?
14:48
Speaker 2: Yeah?
14:49
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's something that I never go and forget that, Navid,
14:52
Speaker 4: because at that time, I don't know if you remain
14:55
Speaker 4: me that a lot of young people Epecio, black people
14:58
Speaker 4: like me, we who to with that type post Jackie
15:01
Speaker 4: letter JACKI you know that it was all colorful letter.
15:05
Speaker 4: Jaki Song said, command the squad, so Wan said, how
15:10
Speaker 4: roly so say Cobra got I don't think that I
15:15
Speaker 4: think that I even can sleep with that Jackey.
15:19
Speaker 2: D. C. How to much I know, Michael Mama squad.
15:22
Speaker 4: Yeah, and they see how I get out out of
15:24
Speaker 4: my house when yo body piped me out.
15:26
Speaker 1: Okay, cool. So George dropped you off at around a
15:30
Speaker 1: thirty and you spent the rest of the evening at
15:32
Speaker 1: home with Johanna and your son. But by the next
15:35
Speaker 1: day there was already a rumor going around that it
15:38
Speaker 1: was you that killed Costa Rica, as you found out
15:41
Speaker 1: from your friend Manolo when you went to Gallon's bar
15:44
Speaker 1: the next day.
15:45
Speaker 2: Manolo and some other people watch outside the bottom.
15:49
Speaker 4: When Manolo see me, Manolo approaching me, you know how
15:52
Speaker 4: he said, hey, Waki, how you doing?
15:54
Speaker 2: My friend you know ween Brace and he said, man
15:57
Speaker 2: why you don't leave the CD? And I look at here.
15:59
Speaker 2: I say, leady, CD, what are you talking about? Manolo?
16:03
Speaker 2: He said, Maine Alito, last night? You know I'm the
16:06
Speaker 2: rue noise that you beat it. And I say, hey,
16:10
Speaker 2: A stop playing like tom mate, do you show? What
16:11
Speaker 2: are you talking about? He said yeah.
16:13
Speaker 4: So when he told me now the Frost team that
16:16
Speaker 4: is coming, you know, in my mind, I just say, oh, man,
16:20
Speaker 4: something Roman, and I just started to be afraid.
16:23
Speaker 1: And it came out later that Condido DZ was the
16:26
Speaker 1: likely instigator of that rumor, but however it got started.
16:29
Speaker 1: The two homicide detectives work in the case, Arc Gearns
16:33
Speaker 1: and James Crowley ran with that.
16:35
Speaker 3: Rumor, so Joaquin's name comes up really fast in the investigation,
16:39
Speaker 3: and from as soon as they get his name, he
16:42
Speaker 3: is the only person they ever look into. And so
16:46
Speaker 3: essentially what you can see in the police reports is
16:48
Speaker 3: the two homicide inspectors who have Joaquin as their one
16:52
Speaker 3: and only suspect, start showing his picture to the two eyewitnesses,
16:56
Speaker 3: neither of whom identify him. They ask her, well, who
16:59
Speaker 3: looks most like the shooter, and she says, well, she
17:03
Speaker 3: points to Joaquin's photo and says he looks most like
17:05
Speaker 3: the shooter, but she doesn't say it's him, and the
17:08
Speaker 3: guy in the car says he doesn't pick anybody out,
17:10
Speaker 3: but they still keep their focus entirely on Joaquin.
17:14
Speaker 1: But Joaquin didn't even match the descriptions that the two
17:16
Speaker 1: witnesses gave, right, No.
17:17
Speaker 3: Yeah, so the police did get descriptions from the eyewitnesses
17:21
Speaker 3: of the shooter and the things they describe because they
17:24
Speaker 3: both sort of say they see him from a distance,
17:26
Speaker 3: kind of the silhouette. They say he's got an afro,
17:29
Speaker 3: and that he's wearing this long trench coat. And we
17:32
Speaker 3: know from independent witnesses, including the guy Joaquin got in
17:35
Speaker 3: a fight with, who you know, didn't like him and
17:37
Speaker 3: had no reason to lie for him, that Joaquin's hair
17:40
Speaker 3: is in a long Jerry curl, not in an afro,
17:42
Speaker 3: and he's wearing this short, short leather jacket and not
17:45
Speaker 3: a long trench coat. And in fact, no one had
17:48
Speaker 3: ever seen Joaquin ever in a trench coat, and he
17:51
Speaker 3: didn't even own a trench coat.
17:53
Speaker 4: You know, thank God that I just stop at the
17:55
Speaker 4: Gottam Bottle because you'll see everybody see me how I
17:59
Speaker 4: want the race. Everybody, the people they said, they DeFi.
18:04
Speaker 4: They've remained me how I watched the race. They've remained
18:07
Speaker 4: me that I got a Jedi krail.
18:09
Speaker 3: I mean, even when they search the house, they're never
18:11
Speaker 3: able to find anything to connect Joaquin, and and so
18:15
Speaker 3: you know, it doesn't match. He doesn't match the descriptions,
18:18
Speaker 3: and he's got an alibi. His his girlfriend and their
18:21
Speaker 3: roommate tell the police from the very beginning that he's
18:24
Speaker 3: home that night by eight thirty.
18:26
Speaker 1: Nevertheless, Garan's and Crowley stay focused on Joaquin as a suspect.
18:31
Speaker 1: And so at that point, Joaquin, you went to the
18:34
Speaker 1: police station on your own, correct.
18:36
Speaker 4: I cannot take a no moment. I cannot take a
18:38
Speaker 4: no more. You watch some more rumo that I said, Man,
18:40
Speaker 4: I have to go talk to with the homo side.
18:42
Speaker 4: I have to go talk to with the homo side. Bolutality.
18:46
Speaker 4: I go with my Loyo to speak to the homo side.
18:49
Speaker 3: About two and a half weeks after the shooting, and
18:53
Speaker 3: he tells them that he was with George Ferrella in
18:55
Speaker 3: the white Monte Carlo, and he tells them how to
18:58
Speaker 3: find George says, I, you know, I dated it his mother,
19:00
Speaker 3: Nellie Hernandez. They live at this address. Here's what he
19:04
Speaker 3: looks like. Here's the car he drives. I mean, basically
19:06
Speaker 3: everything they need and they pull in George Verilla and
19:11
Speaker 3: George is initially saying, well, I can tell you what
19:13
Speaker 3: happened up until the time Joaquin and I split up,
19:15
Speaker 3: and then he says he went home after and he says, well,
19:17
Speaker 3: I probably I probably went somewhere after though, and they
19:20
Speaker 3: never ask him where did you go? Instead, what they
19:23
Speaker 3: say is we know Joaquin was the shooter. You're going
19:26
Speaker 3: to go down for this murder. He's you know, George
19:28
Speaker 3: is eighteen. They tell him, you're going to go down
19:30
Speaker 3: for this murder unless you stop lying and covering up
19:33
Speaker 3: for Joaquin, and they essentially tell him like, he's just
19:36
Speaker 3: got to say that Joaquin is the guy in the
19:38
Speaker 3: car with him at the time of the shooting, and
19:40
Speaker 3: that Joaquin is the shooter. And George Verilla literally says, Okay,
19:44
Speaker 3: whatever you said, and then he repeats the story that
19:48
Speaker 3: they have now fed to him, and that's it.
19:52
Speaker 1: So I guess subsequently later you end up getting arrested. Joaquin, Yes,
19:57
Speaker 1: and you end up getting arrested based on a confession from.
20:00
Speaker 3: George, or at least from George saying exactly what the
20:04
Speaker 3: police told them to say.
20:05
Speaker 1: Okay, so he was he fabricated her from the offices
20:08
Speaker 1: Garin's and Crowley.
20:10
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, they tell him he's got to say
20:12
Speaker 3: it's Joaquin. That's like then they keep going back to
20:14
Speaker 3: the eyewitnesses. Basically, the witnesses make positive IDAs only after
20:18
Speaker 3: they're repeatedly shown Joaquin, and for one of them, she
20:21
Speaker 3: doesn't even make a first positive IDA until the preliminary
20:24
Speaker 3: hearing when he's literally sitting in a red jumpsuit at
20:26
Speaker 3: the defense table, and then she's like, oh, I'm sure
20:29
Speaker 3: that's the guy, and she says it's based on his
20:32
Speaker 3: attitude that she can see is how she's identifying. I mean,
20:36
Speaker 3: there's a lot of racism all through this trial, Like
20:39
Speaker 3: she even says, I think they were speaking African.
20:42
Speaker 1: So on April nineteen, nineteen ninety, Joaquin, you were arrested
20:47
Speaker 1: in charged with first degree murder. Bro what was going
20:50
Speaker 1: through your head? I mean, did you even think this
20:53
Speaker 1: shit was real?
20:54
Speaker 2: Do you know what?
20:56
Speaker 4: Let me tell you, these whoop not even going like
20:59
Speaker 4: washing my you, I really believe that everything worth real.
21:03
Speaker 4: I was thinking that I was in a can't the
21:05
Speaker 4: camera show looking all these people coming and pointed me
21:10
Speaker 4: with a finger, Yeah, that the main And in my
21:14
Speaker 4: mind I said, main, I know, I know the camera
21:17
Speaker 4: is going come out and they go and say a
21:19
Speaker 4: smile you in camera, you know, because that was a
21:23
Speaker 4: famite show at the time. I go to watch that
21:26
Speaker 4: show tomorrow, you know, and I and I say, you
21:31
Speaker 4: know what, I mean, what happened to me? I cannot
21:34
Speaker 4: believe it? You you cannot being innocing believe that what
21:40
Speaker 4: is happening to you is real. You you cannot you know,
21:45
Speaker 4: and that's what happened to me. And you know, to
21:49
Speaker 4: respond to your question, no, you know, I steel, don't
21:52
Speaker 4: get it, I steal. You don't even get it. Main
21:57
Speaker 4: you're being charged with flost the good morning.
22:01
Speaker 2: I just deal them getting So.
22:03
Speaker 3: George had actually kind of disappeared, George Urella, he'd not
22:06
Speaker 3: shown up for the prelim, he was missing leading up
22:10
Speaker 3: to the trial. I honestly believe Jaquin's attorney just didn't
22:13
Speaker 3: think he was even going to have to deal with George.
22:16
Speaker 3: It was just going to be this eyewitness I D case.
22:19
Speaker 3: And so he did, I think, a fairly good job,
22:22
Speaker 3: you know, showing all these discrepancies between the descriptions and
22:25
Speaker 3: what Joaquin actually looked like, their own inconsistent statements and
22:30
Speaker 3: kind of the evolution of their IDs. He did a
22:33
Speaker 3: nice job of showing that George Verrella's timeline didn't make
22:36
Speaker 3: any sense, that there was this like big gap in
22:38
Speaker 3: between the way he says what they did that night
22:41
Speaker 3: and how he drove Joaquin home. His timelines that lines
22:44
Speaker 3: up with joaquines that Joaquin is home long before the
22:47
Speaker 3: murder happens, but what he missed, what he didn't manage
22:51
Speaker 3: to do. And one of the things I really respect
22:54
Speaker 3: about him is that he actually gave us a declaration
22:56
Speaker 3: saying he was ineffective because he didn't present to the jury.
22:59
Speaker 3: The jury never heard that Joaquin's name came from the
23:03
Speaker 3: homicide inspectors first, and that they told Verrella essentially that
23:06
Speaker 3: he had to identify Joaquin, So the jury just never
23:09
Speaker 3: heard that. What they heard instead was this guy who
23:11
Speaker 3: knows Joaquin, who'd grown up with him around is saying
23:15
Speaker 3: he's the guy who was with me in my car
23:17
Speaker 3: and who got out and shot him. And then he
23:19
Speaker 3: hears that corroborated by these two independent eyewitnesses, and Joaquin's
23:25
Speaker 3: attorney presented witnesses who describe what Joaquin looked like that night,
23:29
Speaker 3: how he had Jerry Curl in the short jacket, but
23:32
Speaker 3: he never presented the alibi witnesses. So they also didn't
23:35
Speaker 3: hear that Joaquin was at home with his one month
23:38
Speaker 3: old son and that they had a good reason to
23:40
Speaker 3: remember that night because they were going to celebrate the
23:42
Speaker 3: one month anniversary of his birth the next day, So
23:46
Speaker 3: you know, they knew that George Verrella was incentivized. They
23:49
Speaker 3: knew he got immunity, they knew he was in and
23:51
Speaker 3: out of trouble, So it wasn't a super strong case
23:54
Speaker 3: even with what they heard. But what they never heard
23:56
Speaker 3: was anything else about someone else actually did it, or
24:00
Speaker 3: that Joaquin had this really credible alibi, and so they
24:03
Speaker 3: end up convicting him.
24:09
Speaker 4: It don't matter if I'm trying to explain to you
24:11
Speaker 4: a thousand times, I cannot even feeling close to really
24:20
Speaker 4: really tell you how I feel when they come out
24:25
Speaker 4: with the guilty verity. You know, everything inside me stopped, everything,
24:33
Speaker 4: I stop reading, my heart stop.
24:38
Speaker 2: It is a feeling that you can never You can
24:45
Speaker 2: never explain how it is that they find you guilty.
24:54
Speaker 4: Espece you find me guilty or the moory of my
24:58
Speaker 4: bed frameming that's all I really killed me? How can
25:03
Speaker 4: I be doing time for the money of my baby
25:06
Speaker 4: friend made somebody that I love.
25:10
Speaker 2: Even to today.
25:31
Speaker 4: I ended almost opened Pellican Bey prism in what the
25:34
Speaker 4: more taught prisum in the California system.
25:37
Speaker 2: At the time.
25:39
Speaker 4: I see people when they told these people you go
25:42
Speaker 4: into Pelican Bay, I see grown Maine crumbled in the
25:46
Speaker 4: floor and crying when I was in some queen, you know,
25:51
Speaker 4: and I ask the people. I say, hey, Main, why
25:54
Speaker 4: he crying? I said, Man, you don't know where we're going.
25:57
Speaker 4: He said, we're going to Pennican be And I said,
26:00
Speaker 4: what a body? I said, Cuba. Let me tell you man,
26:04
Speaker 4: it is no joke. He said, may wait til you
26:08
Speaker 4: get there.
26:10
Speaker 2: You know it was true.
26:12
Speaker 4: You know when I gotta tell you, Maine, every time
26:15
Speaker 4: that you heal alarm sound in that prison, it was
26:21
Speaker 4: not a first alarm.
26:23
Speaker 2: It was somebody got killed, you know. And I said, man,
26:29
Speaker 2: how did I ain't in there? Bo?
26:32
Speaker 4: My mind is still? Do not stopping play some trick
26:36
Speaker 4: on me? I remember, you know. I who to wag
26:39
Speaker 4: into my said go to sleep. And I had to
26:42
Speaker 4: cover my head with the blanket, real tie, and I
26:47
Speaker 4: had to close my eyes royal tie, and I hold
26:50
Speaker 4: to say, Main, when I open my eyes now, when
26:53
Speaker 4: I open my eyes, now, I know this is a three.
26:57
Speaker 2: This is a three. I go and being home, we
27:00
Speaker 2: might sign with my babies. Mama, this is a three. Man,
27:04
Speaker 2: this is a three. I went, I got Cobby might sell.
27:09
Speaker 2: I need to sell, you know, I say, wow, man,
27:14
Speaker 2: this is real.
27:19
Speaker 1: Mmm, So I gotta ask you, man, like, how did
27:22
Speaker 1: you hold on to hope so much for all those years?
27:25
Speaker 1: Because I always always say, you know, for a person
27:27
Speaker 1: that committed crime, it's hard, you know, to deal with
27:30
Speaker 1: the time, But for an innocent person sitting there, it's
27:33
Speaker 1: a whole different level because you're going through everything, whether
27:37
Speaker 1: it's the violence in the prison, the abuse from the cops,
27:41
Speaker 1: whatever it is, the CEOs, whatever it is. So how
27:44
Speaker 1: did you hold on the hope that you would get out?
27:48
Speaker 2: You know why in the beginning I watched completely ain't good.
27:54
Speaker 4: We got everything that I got in my mayis how
27:58
Speaker 4: did I go and prove that I don't do what
28:01
Speaker 4: I can do?
28:03
Speaker 2: You know?
28:03
Speaker 4: And the good thing about it is and thank God,
28:07
Speaker 4: you know, to all the emails, you know, in every
28:10
Speaker 4: priest that I be, brother, in every priest that I be,
28:15
Speaker 4: every email, believe on me. They can see through into
28:22
Speaker 4: my heart. They can see through into the type of
28:25
Speaker 4: man that I was. You know, this call it homies homeboy.
28:31
Speaker 4: They're asking me working and why are you here for?
28:35
Speaker 2: Man?
28:36
Speaker 4: And I say, man, brother, they give me toty one
28:40
Speaker 4: year to life or a model that I not come make.
28:43
Speaker 4: I'm taking God. They say, hey, man, you know what
28:45
Speaker 4: I mean. I believe you walking. I believe you, and
28:50
Speaker 4: I say thank you man. And I received so much respect.
28:54
Speaker 4: I receive the respect that the systems don't give it
28:58
Speaker 4: to me. I got an ef all these emails that
29:03
Speaker 4: deceased deny to me.
29:05
Speaker 2: I got in it from all these people.
29:07
Speaker 1: And page can you can you walk us through the
29:10
Speaker 1: post conviction litigation? I mean didn't Evidently nothing worked for him.
29:15
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean you got to give Joaquin credit, like
29:18
Speaker 3: he litigated his case to the nines, like he got
29:24
Speaker 3: himself into federal court. I know he had helped from
29:26
Speaker 3: jail house lawyers. I have a lot of respect for
29:28
Speaker 3: jailhouth lawyers. And I mean, unfortunately the courts just refused
29:32
Speaker 3: to look at it and refuse to listen. But what
29:35
Speaker 3: eventually happened was Joaquin had earned the respect not only
29:39
Speaker 3: of other incarcerated folks, but also some of the free staff.
29:42
Speaker 3: And we were contacted by this guy, Ray Leonardini, who
29:46
Speaker 3: ran a meditation circle that Joaquin was a part of,
29:49
Speaker 3: and also Ellen Egger's pro bono attorney who have partnered
29:53
Speaker 3: with in a few cases, was helping another guy with
29:56
Speaker 3: parole who told her you have to meet Joaquin, like
29:59
Speaker 3: he's actually innocent and you need to help them. And
30:02
Speaker 3: so Ellen went and met Joaquin. He told her everything.
30:06
Speaker 3: She like everybody, found him very compelling and believable, and
30:11
Speaker 3: so she The first thing asked her to do was
30:13
Speaker 3: go talk to George Verilla's sister, Denise Courcier, and Allan
30:16
Speaker 3: did that and Denise told her, my brother told me
30:20
Speaker 3: that Joaquin is innocent, that it was another Cuban man,
30:24
Speaker 3: and that the police really wanted Joaquin, and George was
30:27
Speaker 3: scared of them, and so he went along with what
30:30
Speaker 3: they wanted. But what really turned the case around was
30:33
Speaker 3: when Roberto Sacoro got out of prison. He went to
30:36
Speaker 3: Cuba and he tracked down Joaquin's family and told them
30:40
Speaker 3: that he personally knew that Joaquin was innocent because he
30:43
Speaker 3: had actually seen the whole thing from his motel room.
30:46
Speaker 1: And listeners, remember, Roberto Cicoro was another friend of Joaquin's.
30:51
Speaker 1: The day before all of this happened, Roberto had killed
30:54
Speaker 1: this other guy named Ruben Alfonso, and he was hiding
30:57
Speaker 1: out at the Bay Bridge motel waiting on Felix to
31:00
Speaker 1: bring up some clothes when he heard Felix southside argon
31:03
Speaker 1: with Candido Diaz.
31:04
Speaker 3: They had been fighting over over a gun and not
31:08
Speaker 3: paying for the gun, and so he recognized their voices
31:10
Speaker 3: and they start coming in and out of his view,
31:12
Speaker 3: and you know, he hears the gunshot and he runs
31:14
Speaker 3: out and he sees Candido get into the white Monte
31:17
Speaker 3: Carlo and drive away, and he basically broke down and
31:21
Speaker 3: apologized to Joaquin's family and explained that while he was
31:25
Speaker 3: in he'd been a shot caller initially, and so he
31:29
Speaker 3: felt like, you know, in addition to the normal amount
31:31
Speaker 3: of trouble you can get in in prison for snitching,
31:34
Speaker 3: that he, especially as someone who'd sort of enforced those rules,
31:37
Speaker 3: would be even more in danger. And for a long
31:40
Speaker 3: time he'd hope to be able to get his own revenge,
31:42
Speaker 3: that at some point Candido would get locked up and
31:46
Speaker 3: he would be able to avenge Felix's death, and in
31:51
Speaker 3: some ways, fortunately that never happened, and instead he gets
31:54
Speaker 3: out and tells the truth, and that really broke open
31:57
Speaker 3: the case.
31:58
Speaker 1: And Ellen also tracks a couple of people that George
32:01
Speaker 1: Verilla had talked to and had told them Joaquin was innocent.
32:05
Speaker 1: One was Joaquin's sister Denise, and the other was a
32:08
Speaker 1: woman named Kadi Dad Gonzales.
32:10
Speaker 3: She was friends with Nelli Hernandez, George's mother, and also
32:14
Speaker 3: knew Joaquin through Nelly and through the Cuban community. George
32:19
Speaker 3: tells her also, so it's very similar to what he
32:21
Speaker 3: said to Denise, that he knows Joaquin is innocent and
32:24
Speaker 3: didn't do this. And so we had these two statements
32:26
Speaker 3: from George Verilla to two different people saying that Joaquin
32:29
Speaker 3: was innocent and also saying that it was another Cuban man.
32:32
Speaker 3: And so Candy ro Diez is not only Cuban but
32:35
Speaker 3: also matches the original description. He was always had his
32:38
Speaker 3: hair in an afro, He was known to wear long
32:41
Speaker 3: trench coats. And it turns out he'd had this, you know,
32:44
Speaker 3: ongoing and escalating feud with Felix Pasta Rica right before
32:48
Speaker 3: the murder, and it all started over the weapon that
32:51
Speaker 3: may actually have been used, a forty four, which was
32:53
Speaker 3: actually the weapon they said was used to kill Felix
32:56
Speaker 3: Basta Rica. So Ellen had done most of the investigation
33:00
Speaker 3: by the time she came to me, and it was
33:01
Speaker 3: only the Roberto piece that came afterwards. But we really
33:04
Speaker 3: felt like that pushed it over the top. And then
33:08
Speaker 3: the Innocence Commission also got an eyewitness I D expert
33:10
Speaker 3: to look at the eyewitnesses and just really explain and
33:15
Speaker 3: under the social science that we now know even more.
33:18
Speaker 3: While all of those all the reasons eyewitness identifications are unreliable,
33:22
Speaker 3: but we're especially so in this case.
33:24
Speaker 1: Well not just unreliable. I believe one of the witnesses,
33:27
Speaker 1: Kathleen Gavada, had another reason to identify Joaquin.
33:31
Speaker 4: You know, the same warm I say from the Beginni
33:34
Speaker 4: now that I hold the SHOLDI D demain, I only
33:37
Speaker 4: atey poucing and Leo, you know, to give you defending
33:42
Speaker 4: change and watch you see, well Chi.
33:44
Speaker 1: Got so, Paige, after all this new information you put
33:49
Speaker 1: in front of them, did the courts quickly agree that
33:52
Speaker 1: Joaquin was innocent?
33:54
Speaker 3: I mean we expected them to, especially because the DA's
33:57
Speaker 3: office was on board, and that.
33:59
Speaker 1: Was District Bernie chesso Bodin, who was repeatedly under fire
34:03
Speaker 1: from the police union and adversaries. There were I think
34:06
Speaker 1: like two recall elections, so his political foot and was
34:09
Speaker 1: never secure and he was the one that was making
34:12
Speaker 1: the recommendation based on the Innocence Commission findings.
34:15
Speaker 3: They had this separate Innocence Commission. Right, that was supposed
34:18
Speaker 3: to be this independent body. It had DA's public defenders, experts,
34:22
Speaker 3: law professors, you know, like this whole commission of different
34:25
Speaker 3: stakeholders who all agreed Joaquin is fully innocent. And in
34:28
Speaker 3: my experience, usually when that happens, the courts are pretty
34:32
Speaker 3: willing to go along pretty quickly, right. But unfortunately we
34:35
Speaker 3: had the exact opposite experience here, and I can only
34:38
Speaker 3: imagine some of that was the politics going on in
34:41
Speaker 3: San Francisco. The court essentially just the first thing they
34:44
Speaker 3: did was ask us to do another round of briefing,
34:47
Speaker 3: and they invited the Attorney General's office in which you
34:50
Speaker 3: know doesn't generally happen in superior court. But here's the
34:53
Speaker 3: court saying, you know, District Attorney, I don't trust what
34:55
Speaker 3: you have to say, and so Attorney General, I'm inviting
34:58
Speaker 3: you in to tell me something different. Fortunately, the AG's
35:02
Speaker 3: office also saw that this wasn't a case to oppose.
35:04
Speaker 3: Everything pointed to Joaquin's innocence. There's no reliable evidence of
35:07
Speaker 3: guilt anywhere. But even after you know, a second round
35:11
Speaker 3: of briefing in the AG's office refusing to come in,
35:15
Speaker 3: they still had us have an evident you're hearing. And
35:17
Speaker 3: so here we are both sides arguing for the same thing.
35:21
Speaker 3: So we're both presenting opening statements on Joaquin being innocent,
35:24
Speaker 3: and then we're both doing closing arguments about how he's
35:27
Speaker 3: entitled to relief and how we all believe he's innocent
35:29
Speaker 3: and the judge should reverse his conviction. Luckily, by then
35:32
Speaker 3: we'd been switched to a different judge, was a really good,
35:35
Speaker 3: experienced judge and just saw all the problems with the case.
35:39
Speaker 3: And then finally, on April eighteenth, the court reversed Jakin's
35:43
Speaker 3: conviction and the district attorneys again announced he was innocent.
35:48
Speaker 3: They dismissed all of the charges.
35:52
Speaker 2: Man, I almost fail to be fluw.
35:55
Speaker 4: YEO to go out to free the freedom that I
36:02
Speaker 4: want deny for almost thirty two years, and I don't
36:05
Speaker 4: even know how to make it all the way to
36:06
Speaker 4: the door, you know, And I keep walking.
36:09
Speaker 2: I'm walking on imagin you know where when they open
36:13
Speaker 2: the door to me and I see, you know, I see.
36:16
Speaker 4: Pay ailing, my son and my baby's mama, I see everybody. Man,
36:23
Speaker 4: it was too much for me, I say, my god,
36:27
Speaker 4: it was a day unbelievable. This type of feeling, you
36:33
Speaker 4: have to really go through that for you can really
36:37
Speaker 4: have the thing what I'm talking about.
36:40
Speaker 2: It is unbelievable. It is unbelievable.
36:44
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm with you on that. And of course we're
36:46
Speaker 1: all super grateful to the Northern California Innocent Project and
36:50
Speaker 1: the fantastic work that they do because it's through them
36:54
Speaker 1: that people like Joaquin can you know, have a chance
36:57
Speaker 1: to get back to this free world. So if anyone
37:00
Speaker 1: want to show the Northern California Innocent Projects some love,
37:03
Speaker 1: we'll have the link in the bios so you can
37:06
Speaker 1: do that. So we've got to the point of the
37:10
Speaker 1: show where we do this thing called closing arguments. And
37:13
Speaker 1: first I want to thank y'all for being here, and
37:16
Speaker 1: I also want to ask y'all to share your final
37:19
Speaker 1: thoughts for the listeners, you know, anything that you want
37:22
Speaker 1: to say, any takeaway you may have, and page I
37:27
Speaker 1: want to first start with you and then we can
37:29
Speaker 1: close with Joaquin.
37:32
Speaker 3: So the thing that I think we haven't done a
37:35
Speaker 3: great job of yet, especially in San Francisco, is like
37:37
Speaker 3: we know, there was this era in which they were
37:40
Speaker 3: treating especially young black men terribly and saw themselves as
37:45
Speaker 3: like cleaning up the streets by somehow getting people involved
37:48
Speaker 3: in homicides and throwing them away for life. And there
37:51
Speaker 3: are six people who've been exonerated out of San Francisco.
37:53
Speaker 3: All of them are black men, and five of them
37:56
Speaker 3: are from this nineteen ninety era. They all have incredible story.
38:00
Speaker 3: You should look into all of them. Joaquin, Maurice Caldwell,
38:04
Speaker 3: Antoine Goff, John Tennyson, and Karen mad Conley, who I
38:07
Speaker 3: know you've already interviewed. But what we haven't done is
38:10
Speaker 3: look back at what else went wrong there. So it
38:12
Speaker 3: shouldn't be luck of the draw, right whose cases get
38:14
Speaker 3: looked at and who gets picked up? And so Headjoaquin
38:18
Speaker 3: not you know, convinced other incarcerated folks that he was
38:21
Speaker 3: innocent and then one of them meeting Ellen like you know,
38:24
Speaker 3: this luck of the draw thing. It's not okay for
38:27
Speaker 3: justice to be that arbitrary, what little justice exists in
38:31
Speaker 3: our system. And so my hope and listeners, I'd love
38:35
Speaker 3: for you to encourage this is that we actually look back.
38:38
Speaker 3: There's four homicide investigators who were involved in all of
38:41
Speaker 3: these cases. We could look at their cases, We could
38:43
Speaker 3: look at all cases from this era. You know, cdcr's
38:47
Speaker 3: budget for this year is over fourteen billion dollars. Just
38:51
Speaker 3: imagine what would happen if we just spent a tiny
38:53
Speaker 3: fraction of that on actually looking for where things went wrong,
38:57
Speaker 3: starting with the places we already know things went Everybody
39:01
Speaker 3: should have a chance to prove themselves no is as
39:03
Speaker 3: bad as the worst thing they've ever done. And you know,
39:07
Speaker 3: these guys who have done all this time like you
39:09
Speaker 3: are Land, like Yuki, and who have come out and
39:11
Speaker 3: shown like I mean, one of the things I just
39:13
Speaker 3: love also about what you've been doing is just highlighting
39:16
Speaker 3: the humanity of people right whether they're incarcerated or not.
39:19
Speaker 3: We are all have this huge amount to offer and give,
39:23
Speaker 3: and I just would love for us to stop leaving
39:26
Speaker 3: so many people behind and really start focusing on using
39:30
Speaker 3: our resources in better ways.
39:33
Speaker 2: What I want to say, you know, to all be listening.
39:36
Speaker 4: I want to lay everybody know that what happened to
39:39
Speaker 4: me is continually happening right now, and the only way
39:45
Speaker 4: it can be at top we all have to come
39:48
Speaker 4: out together and do something about it. I always say,
39:52
Speaker 4: if you were capable to go to the moon, we
39:57
Speaker 4: have to be capable to prevent that anal same pace
40:00
Speaker 4: go to prison, simple like that. How can you go
40:03
Speaker 4: to the moon but you cannot premain one person to
40:07
Speaker 4: go to prison. It domain saying I know, right now,
40:11
Speaker 4: at this moment, in some part of the country, in
40:14
Speaker 4: a court house, somebody's going to prison right now, being innocing.
40:20
Speaker 4: It is no doubt in my mind. And he going
40:22
Speaker 4: through for the same thing that I go through when
40:26
Speaker 4: I was in that position. I know we can stop it.
40:30
Speaker 4: I know we can do so anything about it because
40:33
Speaker 4: I know Number one is we need to make the
40:36
Speaker 4: dis ratony accountable for any wrong doing that they do.
40:44
Speaker 4: And I said the every dish rat No, we got
40:47
Speaker 4: some really good distro rattorney that they do their job,
40:51
Speaker 4: They go by the law and they honest the people,
40:55
Speaker 4: how walking people. But we got some other one that
40:59
Speaker 4: they don't care, they don't get They want to wing
41:03
Speaker 4: our cakes, our this space on the ego same people.
41:07
Speaker 2: We have to stop.
41:08
Speaker 4: Doc.
41:14
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to Wrongful Conviction. I'm your guest host
41:18
Speaker 1: Erline Woods. I like to thank executive producers Jason Flumm
41:22
Speaker 1: and Kevin Waters for inviting me to be here. Good
41:25
Speaker 1: Looking Special Thanks to our wonderful production team. Connor Hall,
41:30
Speaker 1: Annie Chelsea, Lila Robinson and Jeff Clyburn. The music in
41:34
Speaker 1: this production comes from three times Oscar Numbernee Jay Rath.
41:38
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Speaker 1: three platforms. You can find me online at Erline Woods,
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