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PLAYING GOD-Redeeming The Gift Of Power Pt 1 · Mental Health and the Mission of the Church

• 0:04
  SPEAKER_04: Are we?
• 0:05
  SPEAKER_04: I believe so.
• 0:07
  SPEAKER_04: All right.
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_04: Well, let's do something we don't typically do.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_04: And uh let's just pray a second.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_04: I I'll be honest with you guys, man.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_04: This particular subject driven by this particular book has the potential to be really, really powerful.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_07: I agree.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_04: If there's if there's any one thing that I feel like we need to revisit, it's the whole issue of power and um how we get it, how we use it, how we call it out when it's being used inappropriately.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_04: Um so let's just pray a sec and uh ask God to use this, man.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_04: I I uh gosh, I'd be so honored if God would use each of us in our own way, Lord.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_04: We just uh we we want to be part of solutions, not not problems.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_04: Yes, and um I believe questions drive conversation, and conversation drives culture.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_04: And um help us to just dig around, pose and wrestle with good questions.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_04: And um gosh, if if if there's anybody around that doesn't think power's broken in our world and even in the church, then just don't bother checking us out.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_04: Excuse me, but Father, help us to have good conversation, honoring conversation.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_04: Uh filter our thoughts and our words, God.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_04: We we're we're all gonna say things that don't come out probably perfectly, but uh protect us from that, from any unintended or intended uh offensiveness that isn't helpful.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_04: And we're okay with offensiveness that's helpful, but not that's unhelpful.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_04: So please use this, God, please, sir.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_04: Jesus' name.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_04: Amen.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_02: Amen.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks for doing that.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_04: Adam's about to join us here.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_04: All right.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_04: Well, uh, what we're supposed to do is have read the intro and uh just kind of share it, share something that jumped at us and or uh and maybe throw a question out that we want to get started with.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_04: And uh I I don't see Adam yet.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_04: I see his picture, but I don't see him.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_04: Are you there, Adam?
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_07: I'm here.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_04: There he is.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_04: Okay.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_04: Uh, real quick, Adam, introduce yourself.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_07: So my name's Adam Martin.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_07: I am on staff here at Seacoast.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_07: I guess my title is Pastor of Staff Care and Development.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_07: To be fair, I'm still trying to figure out what that means.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_07: Um, so are so are we, man.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_07: I understand.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_07: But uh grateful to be with you guys.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_07: Uh read a little bit of the book and looking forward to uh an honest discussion.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_04: Good deal.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, just for all those who may be showing up, you know, on Facebook, we may want to give just a little bit of context that we got in this conversation regarding the cultural moment we're in.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_02: And uh someone who was rusty, you know, kind of summarized it.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_02: A lot of it's about conversation about power, which kind of led us into this conversation then.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_02: So it's been it's been really, really helpful.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, and this is a book that I read, I don't remember, a year, two or three ago, I can't remember.
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_04: And I just I just remember being blown away by the there's a thought process in it.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_04: And listen, let's be honest, it's a little deeper, a little trickier.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_04: It's not just sound bites, but it's worth the effort, man.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, and who knows?
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_04: Uh Andy Crouch may join us one of these times.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, uh, I seriously, I think he's the kind of guy that probably would.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_04: So, who wants to share a highlight from the all we're talking about today is the intro, and I'm saying that for anybody else tagging along with us?
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_04: Follow follow us in the book, man.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_04: Uh, right now, let's just say for now we're gonna do what one or two chapters a week.
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_04: What do y'all think?
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, why don't we read two, but be ready to discuss one for sure.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_04: Okay, but let's read two just in case.
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_02: Sure.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_04: That's reasonable.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_04: All right, who's got something to share?
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_08: Yeah, Chip, I'll I'll just say just um I was a little taken back by just somebody focusing on the word power and just how just the way he talks about how it's around us all the time, and uh and just not even really thinking about it.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_08: And how, and I think he even, correct me if I'm wrong, but even debated uh you know, maybe using authority or a different word, but I think just using the word power in and of itself, um it it it caught me off guard because I just it's not a topic that I've really heard discussed before.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_08: So it's you know, leading me already to think, okay, I I don't normally think of myself as having power and others as not having power.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_08: And so I'm really I'm looking forward to hearing uh I guess how he discusses where where power is at work, who has it, who doesn't, and where it's not being utilized well.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_08: It's just not something that I've really thought about before.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_04: I love I love the the way you personalize that, that you've never thought about having power and others not.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_04: Um, because dude, that's the that's the bottom line, man.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_04: The bottom line is recognizing that everybody has power, everybody.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_04: Now we don't have the same amount, we don't have the same uh distribution abilities or challenges or opportunities, but that's a great start, Chris.
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_04: Just that simple thought.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_04: Hey, can I throw a question in?
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_04: Because that was one of my questions.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_04: Why do you think we have a weird response to the word power?
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_04: Because we do, don't we?
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_04: We have kind of a what do y'all think?
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_04: Why do we why what that word just kind of throws us, you know, like oh, use another word, man.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_07: I think we have camouflaged it.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_07: Um, I don't know what page it is because I'm reading from a Kindle, but he he talks about we speak of leadership, influence, or authority that we've camouflaged the word power.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_07: Yeah, those are words we do see seem comfortable with, but you're right, power we tend to shirk back from.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_02: So mine hadn't been a conscious awareness, but now thinking about it, I generally would say when power comes to my head, 80% of it I think of it as negative, right?
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_04: You know, what would be an example of the positive 20, Ken?
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_02: I don't I'd have to think about that.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, honestly, um, you know, the the ability to empower somebody, I think that is being positive, promoting somebody, giving somebody money who needs it, breaking up a fight, you know.
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, you know, so I think of it on that side, but almost all the negative I think about coercion, manipulation, power trips, ambition, you know, I I it it almost always goes negative in my head.
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_04: What are the rest of you thinking?
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_04: Why don't we react word weirdly to that word?
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I would say uh Adam, when he what he said, it made me think of I he might have said it in the intro, but I know he said it in the podcast.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_01: Well, he did say it in both the intro and the podcast, where he um talked about his pastor friend who um said, No, you know, we're servant leaders, you know.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_01: I'm I'm would like to think of myself as a servant leader and you know, our church is a servant leader.
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_01: And he's like, and he said, I know this guy well, and I would say that's true.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_01: He said, but there is a notable shift in the room when he walks in, and that's power.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so um I think you know, just even realizing that, you know, um the the the force, the expression that you feel.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_01: Like um when I went to see you two a few years ago, um it was one of the most unreal because they're my favorite band, but like having 30,000 people at one time with these four guys on stage, like we're all bound together by the love of you too, but it's like it's a powerful exchange.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_01: Like we're all there to feel this magnetism from uh from them leading.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_01: And so it was interesting to think like that's part of what I feel when not just them but other people of influence enter a room without me even knowing it.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_01: And that does kind of this, you know, kind of um throws me off a little bit, not in a bad way, but it kind of put into perspective like, oh, it's power that I feel, or you know, do I react certain ways because of that power or that influence?
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I would say a positive use of power that I never really thought about when he was talking about giving cello lessons and how um the guy giving him the lessons um didn't really lose power in the sense of he was teaching him a skill that he had within him.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_01: He said, But the transactional of power was now on the receiving end, I'm a little bit better cello player because of the power he has um he has given over the course of this hour-long um uh lesson.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_01: And so even that thought of like transactional power as a positive thing, as a good thing, um, especially in leadership, thinking about like, man, if I looked at it as power and not just you know um being able to teach just from my life and experiences, but but people coming to us um and and us being able to give them some sort of creative and um um life-giving power and not be weird about it, you know what I mean?
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_01: Like, like I've got power to give, but thinking of it as as a as a health, healthy um transactional form, I thought was a really interesting concept.
• 10:28
  unknown: Yeah.
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_08: How did he in what may maybe one of you guys remember how did he define power in the in the intro?
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_04: I'm not sure if he did in the intro, I don't remember.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, uh so he divided he um Oh I do remember go ahead, Rusty.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_00: I want to say he basically he associates it um with creation, the ability to make something of the world.
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_04: That's it.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_00: And so he so he he he references his previous book about culture making.
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but he he ultimately he says that uh yeah, it's the ability to make something of the world, yeah.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and then he falls it up, Chris, in the next chapter a lot more, like next couple chapters, yeah.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_05: Okay, but he also refers to it as a gift, yeah.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and a gift has to come from a giver, yes, right, yeah, yeah.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_03: It's a gift, but it it's also um it's the ability to to to make things, to create things, but what separates us and makes us kind of unique is that we make meaning of those things, right?
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_03: That we sort we sort of take it to another level.
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, you know, animals can create things or you know, whatever.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, you know, plants can create things, but we we we we derive and create meaning from those things.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_03: So it's uh the human element, there's something that's you know unique to us in the creative uh you know sphere of things.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_03: Chip, when I think about power, there's something about power just that what just the word power.
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_03: Um it's um just the nature of power, it makes you feel small.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_03: It it I think I think it has a negative connotation to it because it just makes you feel small, just that word.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_03: Uh nobody thinks about power and and thinking about a little bit of power.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_03: You know, you just you when you think of power, you think of Niagara Falls.
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_03: Think of you think of an incredible, you know, a mountain, you think of, you know, just awesomeness, greatness, you know, you think of big.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_03: And it's just there's something about that, even just the word and the imagery of it in our imagination, it just makes you feel small.
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_03: And there's a there's a respect, you know, to power.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_03: I know, you know, like anytime, like if I'm ever trying to do like a install a ceiling fan, you know, or be a little handyman, and I'm you know, I go and throw, I throw the main breaker on the whole house, you know.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_03: I like don't because I respect the power, you know.
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_03: I and there's there's there's just something about it that that you know brings a uh that it has an awesomeness to it that you either have to respect or it just kind of humbles you or makes you feel small in some way, I guess, depending on your perspective.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_04: You know, a thought that provokes in me, Jeff, is um what if one of the effects of this this conversation and book and study and thinking is the exact opposite?
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_04: That we realize how small power is, and because of that, how much each of us has.
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_04: Because here's what I was thinking.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_04: One of you guys said something earlier.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_04: Here's what I was thinking is it is a is almost an uh what do you call it, a counterintuitive way to think about power.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_04: I could say something right now to hurt Tim's feelings, which I hope I never do, even though I tease him a lot.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_04: But I could say something right now to hurt his feelings.
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_04: That's power.
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_04: Uh, you know, uh Rusty's you know, reading the definition, the the the uh the ability to make something of the world, I can affect Tim's day, the rest of his day, maybe his whole weekend by by using this this little teeny little bit of power.
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_04: And what if maybe that's gonna be one of the cool things that come out of this is all of us realizing wow, we we're all powerful, and and just being more mindful of it, better stewards of it.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_04: Um, that's cool, Jeff, because because that is how you react, you know.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_04: Like that's why we like superhero movies, I guess.
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_04: I don't know.
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_04: My favorite was the Hulk, man.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_04: He was cool.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_04: But uh yeah.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_02: That's what it's done for me already, Chip.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_02: Just you know, I listen to the podcast, I've read about three or four chapters, and it just it's reframing my whole uh individual thought about me and the power I do have, that I have the ability to choose, which is given by the giver.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_02: And I can choose to create an environment for flourishing for others.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_02: That in itself is transformational.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_02: Got goosebumps, man.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_02: And that's with every encounter, like you said, that's with every that's with every word, that's with every uh arena of influence you have.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, you just think about it.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_04: Lord Jesus, help us, please.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_05: Um, I've got something on that second part.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_05: Matter of fact, Tim, you you kind of referred to it um in chat about the opposite effect of power, um, of coercion and violence, and how that diminishes and distorts you know, power and everything.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_05: Where does, and this is a question um for everybody, where does dignity play in power?
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_04: I think define dignity, excuse me, Ken.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_05: I'll I'll give my definition of it, um, layman's term.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_05: Dignity is the is the human treatment of people beyond their socioeconomic environment and where they are.
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_02: I think it goes directly to the image barriers of God.
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_02: Every person is made in that image, therefore have value and worth and dignity.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_02: C.
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_02: S.
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_02: Lewis in his story about uh the weight of glory makes a statement in there that's that's uh had ramifications in my own uh soul for a long time.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_02: He says we will never meet another mere mortal.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_02: Every person I walk by on the street, none of them none of us are mere mortals.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_02: Uh we all have eternal value and have an eternal destiny.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_02: And if I begin to see people in that in that image bearer, man, we're all marred in different ways, but at the core, and that's where I think dignity comes from.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_05: Do you do you think that how often do you think that we we strip people's dignity without understanding or knowing that we have?
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_08: Yeah, one thing, one thing, and I don't I I think to answer that, one thing that I'm realizing is that it's very easy for me to see power in others, but for me to grossly underestimate the power that I have and just it, and just how because I'm not recognizing the power that I have, it it would be very I don't I think that honestly the ignorance of it probably makes it to where I would you know misuse it and you know take away someone's dignity or or something, just because I I've got this tool that that I'm not I'm not even recognizing.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_08: I've got an ability that I'm not even s seeing.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_07: That's a great insight.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_07: But you can see it in a different context, like um if you if we considered the power our fathers had in our lives, things they said or didn't say or or did or didn't do, those had significant impacts on people.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_07: And and I I would imagine I feel kind of like you do, Chris.
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_07: Like, I don't, it's hard for me to really get my head around the power I possess.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_07: If I think about it with my children, I realize, yeah, I I have to carry, I have to proceed with a lot of caution there because I want to build up, not tear down.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_07: And I could do that with the wrong tone.
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_07: I could have all the right words, but the wrong tone could be demoralizing.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_07: So I recognize the power a little bit more in that equation than I do, like in the professional setting that I work in.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I would add to that, guys.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_01: One of the things that stood out to me that goes along with that is he said, Um, why is power a gift?
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_01: Because power is flourishing.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_01: When power is used well, people in the whole cosmos come more alive to what they were meant to be.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_01: And flourishing is the test of power.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_01: And so I ask myself, are the people around me flourishing because of my words or the way I am, you know, exchanging power?
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_01: And that even goes with um living in the kingdom, right?
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, if if we believe that uh Jesus is is um the truest form of reality and life and the living water, and he is all about his people and and the world flourishing and as us living in the kingdom, that's part of our call, um, which goes along with when he was asking, is it possible that the gospel is good news about power?
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so there's just a lot of tie-ins there.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_01: Um, along with that, if we're just talking about the influence of our fathers in our lives or just the influence we have or don't realize that we have, um, but flourishing, like are the people around me and relationships with me flourishing because of my influence or my power.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_08: Yeah, it's so different because uh, you know, I don't know about you guys, but I grew up in in an environment of competition where me, you know, me, you winning meant me losing, and vice versa.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_08: And so learning to see that others can flourish and go further than me and all that kind of stuff, and that that doesn't mean that I'm I'm losing out is just a toy, you know, and and taking on that kingdom mindset that one person winning, succeeding, flourishing is all of us succeeding, flourishing is just such a different mindset than anything that I grew up with.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_08: I grew up with, you know, if yeah, if you if you win, I lose.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_08: And so therefore I've got to I've gotta overpower you.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_08: I've got to um yeah, uh seeing other people as uh it it there's scarce resources out there, and you got to get your hand to the pot as quick as you can, otherwise you're gonna you're gonna miss out.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_08: Totally.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_00: Chris, is if that's true, um Chris.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_00: that that that we all win um when there's flourishing and i believe that is true um the the the opposite is also true that when one suffers ultimately we all suffer and i think that's the cultural moment that we find ourselves in um where we we are seeing um a mass societal reaction to a few specific um individuals that have suffered and so the question is then being asked um is this someone like me who was powerless and then my own powerlessness is being highlighted or amplified are there systemic things that I that are oppressive uh are there are there is there power that's being withheld from me and so um you know I I think I think this conversation is uh is so important because um it's the conversation that we're having every time we turn on the news that's where is the power where is it how is it being used who's benefiting from it and who's suffering as a result of it yeah every conversation we have every um every time we open social media it there's a there's a narrative of power uh maybe a meta narrative of power uh being revealed and we're fascinated by it and we're outraged by it and we're consumed with it but rarely do we use the terms power like rarely do we say oh I watched the news tonight to see who's who's the power brokers and what are they up to you know we don't we don't often frame it in that language or have that cognitive recognition but typically the reason we we tune in I mean think about when there's a storm off the Atlantic and and we know it's days away and yet we're fascinated what is the current condition of the power that's brewing in the Atlantic and so I I think there is something in us that that that is um hardwired to be to respond both in an intellectual and emotional level when we see power used and misused.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_02: It's interesting to me how much more substantive the conversation even like today has been just by bringing the word power to the forefront.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_08: Again not camouflaging it with other influence I'm an example as a father I'm an influencer as a father but when you start to say the power I have it just brings it to a whole different and then you start looking at like you said Rusty everything through that grin that that grid totally different yeah I I think one uh we haven't this word hasn't been brought up yet but when you start looking at the I don't know maybe all of us have felt this at some time or another but when you think about the misuse of power in your life we're generally encouraged to not see ourselves as victims but that's a vulnerable place to be when somebody in your own life or somebody in your own circle you feel is misusing their power, you can feel victimized and just I you know I I think we're often encouraged to not see ourselves as victims.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_08: You know if someone has a victim mentality normally that's something that's looked down upon but I wonder how that plays into this.
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_00: I I wonder Chris if if uh being a victim means being powerless um you know you think about someone who's abused a child recipient of child abuse and they are essentially powerless over a powerful entity in their life and yet like you said we're encouraged not to have a victim mentality I wonder if that means recognizing that we are neglecting our own power that there's a mentality that we're we're bypassing our own powerfulness if we choose to stay in a in a mindset of of victimization.
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_07: Definitely think that's true part of the because part of the therapeutic road back after somebody has been abused is helping them understand their value and that they are not powerless.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_07: Because they they filter every situation that they're in light of the abuse they experienced and that powerlessness that feeling of powerlessness feels threatening all over again.
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_07: So they react poorly to situations so I definitely think there's something there.
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_07: I struggle a little bit with what you said Rusty not because I don't not because I disagree with it but because I think you're right that um you said uh when one person flourishes we all flourish but when one person suffers we all suffer so in that regard like power's not something to be afraid of I think that's true but I don't think that's our experience like I I think it's more it more aligns with the scarcity narrative that Chris was talking about.
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_07: We feel powerless when certain laws or decisions are made by politicians and and and it enrages us or some of us on on one side of an aisle and then the other side celebrates or who knows but there is that that scarcity factor that seems to elicit a big response in us because we feel like something's being taken away I think that's that that's true also or or can not be true uh or or true to the extent of the connection of the um the communal connection of the people that are involved and and what my my example would be you know right now I think um you know what we're seeing with the racial tensions in in in our country I think something that we have to understand uh as as as white people is that I I think I think there is some truth in it that you know we we are and we maybe even pride ourselves on again I don't want to try to you know I uh broad stroke here because I know it's this is vast but I think we sort of you know individualism and for for white folks you know we we don't I don't think we see ourselves as communal as family uh like black people do you know we we just need to know that that there is a communal uh thing that in the black community that when one of them gets hurt or injustice against one of them in you know and in halfway across the country they feel that more as a community I think sometimes than we than we would um and I and and so I think that that you know when one hurts we all hurt I I think that that's especially a sentiment right now that's resonating with them that we need to be aware of and that we need to understand um and uh you know and and you know it's uh I don't know that it's uh it's a great filter I think this statement about um power is a gift he said because power is for flourishing and it is the test uh flourishing is a test of power so you know we uh I I just love I I love that the framing of that as to you know I can look at if if you want to see how we're doing let's look at our relationships and let's look at you know that's if you really want to say if you ask somebody how you doing that's really kind of what you're saying how are you doing in your relationships and if those are doing well then you're you're probably doing you're probably doing pretty well um but even right now you know he said uh the the uh any act of creation uh carries with it risk and uncertainty and uh even creating a tweet right now is pretty risky um so uh that's definitely true yeah especially you know uh you know Jeff as you were as you were sharing about uh the power of community um my mind my my kids love science and we we do a lot of we do a lot of uh uh biology on an elementary school level with animals and uh zoology things like that but what it made me think about was the uh in nature you have an apex predator you know he and he travels alone he's the most powerful of all great white shark um you know apex predator nobody hunts the apex and then you think about in in nature you have you know herd animals and typically they're vulnerable their power is much different than um one who hunts alone uh you have strength of in numbers safety uh provided uh against powerful outside forces and it and I know there's not a direct correlation here in no way am I trying to liken humanity to everything that happens in the animal kingdom but I but I wonder if if when we're vulnerable we're not drawn to have an increased sense of community that it's that it's intrinsically important for our own survival.
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_07: You know I was thinking Jeff when you were talking about uh whatever something you said but here's where my brain went um you know power's a gift it's given for flourishing and and that's the test of power I wondered if you could turn it around and say this if we exist in a moment a culture or a society a situation where any part of us is not flourishing is it safe to say somewhere in the system there's an abuse or misuse of power in other words whenever there's the absence of flourishing for anybody there's the use or misuse or ab misuse or abuse of power does that make sense yeah yeah yeah and chip I think uh a word that he used I noticed about three different times is the word diminish or diminishment yeah yeah and uh and uh and what you're saying about the the use abuse misuse it always leads to either exaggeration or did or diminishment of the of of the gift of power and you know and I love how he just you know is is where he's where we're going is that we have to learn to bring that gift of power that we've all been given uh uh and and let our imagination be formed through scripture and and let God form our imaginations and ideas about power and bring that under the lordship of Jesus Christ or that's that's ultimately the human what we will do with our power is there will be we will exaggerate or diminish it amute abuse it misuse it yeah one of my favorite um quotes from this whole uh section is um when he says the misuse and rejection of God's gift of image bearing takes the form of idolatry and injustice the two things God hates most understanding how these two distortions of image bearing relate to one another is the key to understanding what has gone so tragically wrong with the gift of power um as as we get further into the book and into our discussion that that that collection of thoughts oh my gosh guys oh yeah oh my gosh it's such a loaded that's such a loaded oh my gosh so much yeah help me with this idea the um the language we're using is making me think I can't remember if it's Ortberg or crab but he talks about what what men and women tend to to to fight for feel the need for most in their lives are significance and security women tend to feel a greater need for security men tend to feel that greater need for significance and the behaviors through which men attempt to feel significant often involve a lot of power grabs different ways and uh so the language you guys are using is making me think about how it some goes back to something you said Chris where we weren't we weren't meant to attain power by exalting ourselves over another in the way that we aren't meant to made we are not meant to be made to feel significant by making others feel small we were our significance just like our power comes from the one who made us we've got to learn to rest in that versus trying to achieve that or increase that does that connect or am I making all that up and it doesn't connect yeah I was thinking about this when uh somebody was talking a minute ago you know you guys have heard me say that if I really want to know what kind of guy you are I want to meet your wife and put that in the context of our conversation because it's giving me it's giving me kind of a different way to think of it same same conclusion but a different way to think about it.
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_04: Because here's the deal if your wife's not flourishing you're not using your power correctly yeah yeah does that make sense yeah yeah and uh so it it just kind of occurred to me that that instinctively what I'm really looking for is are the people under your direct leadership flourishing and if not and again I don't mean it condemningly but it just means there's something awry in your your concept of power your use of power whatever but yeah it just gave me a different way to to to see it and say it that and you and you could take that anywhere.
• 38:27
  SPEAKER_04: I mean uh you know Adam you were making reference to to work and stuff I think earlier you said I don't I can't remember you talked about the I can see it here but I can't see it here kind of thing.
• 38:39
  SPEAKER_04: You and I've talked about this Adam um and I could name a particular person that we talked about one time that how powerful it is just to notice somebody if power is the ability to shift something make something happen how powerful it is just to notice somebody especially somebody who most people ignore.
• 39:01
  SPEAKER_08: Yeah it's it's interesting I I you know it makes me think one one time I was at a conference and Andy Stanley was talking about I think it's John I want to say either John 12 or 13 and his title was or the topic of the message was what do you do when you're the most powerful person in the room and it said it says about Jesus that all authority in heaven and on earth had been given to him and then I think it's the very next line and he puts the towel around his waist and begins to wash the disciples' feet and that was that was really the premise of his message that what do you do when you're the most powerful person in the room because it said all authority had been given to him and his very next act was that and it just for me that just left a lasting impression.
• 39:47
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 39:48
  SPEAKER_00: Tim Tim I I haven't done this much on this call but you were paying attention to that weren't you I was okay just making sure yes you might want to you might want to make a little note to meditate on that later okay let it sink in yeah in your in your attitude and response toward uh older people that deserve I know I've just been a savage chip I'm I apologize you know just pay I'm just making sure you're paying attention I've just been listening to a lot of the Smiths and Rage Against the Machine during these times Rage Against the Machine they do have some good stuff though yeah they do um but uh um to your point Chip when you were talking about flourishing I thought about um I love how the message puts it in Proverbs 16 chapter 16 verse 15 it says good tempered leaders invigorate lives they're like spring rain and sunshine um and I just thought man that's a that's flourishing you know spring rain and sunshine that's refreshing uh but that's a good question to ask of you know my wife but also people around me um what do their faces say are they invigorated with spring rain and sunshine um or do they just look miserable or tense or on eggshells you know um but again I never read that verse and thought that's power to to make the point but I I do now you know let me throw a let me throw a different question in the pot um what what's what's the connection between image bearing and power and maybe even as a sub question what is image bearing what is that what is image bearing and what's the connection between image bearing and power you know chip I wonder um I wonder if there's some some some answer to that in Genesis right one what is it 26 27 where he says uh let us make man mankind in our image and in our likeness and and I think we're so often we're we're comfortable with that when it if it means somehow it's our affirmation or it's our like we're experiencing God's love we're we get to reflect who he is but I I rarely hear the next part of that passage emphasized and that's let them rule over and have dominion over and and so I so so I so I do I will say this I think I have and maybe many of us have a short sighted understanding of what it means to be made the Amago day the image and likeness of God full of diminutive power if we're if we're in and not to be weird theologically but if we're just looking at those verses in the beginning and and God's original design for humanity um it it would it would be so foreign I think to me even like I don't know that I'd feel comfortable tonight in my small group if somebody said hey what does that mean?
• 43:20
  SPEAKER_00: What does that mean we're supposed to have dominion over creation and rule over the birds of the air and the fish of the sea and like I I would I I would I would be grasping and it's probably what you're asking now I would be grasping to make the connection between formative identity and infilling power like I I think I think so all that to say it's a hard question.
• 43:45
  SPEAKER_02: I personally think and most of you know this that that is an area issue concept that the churches just squandered to our peril um but I'll shut up because I can quite I remember one of our past conversations we weren't using the word power yet but I think Chip you made the point from the same passage area that our identity is connected to our responsibility and our responsibility is connected to the authority or the power that we're given.
• 44:22
  SPEAKER_02: Those three triads have to be yeah woven together properly right and so that's a and that's a place of origin from our Christian story.
• 44:33
  SPEAKER_04: You know in a sense kind of directly but also indirectly if you think about where we started today I think Chris said brought it to that very, very, very personal level of you know, my response to the concept of power is that I'm not used to thinking I have any or much.
• 44:54
  SPEAKER_04: Could it be that that's why the world is so jacked up?
• 44:59
  SPEAKER_04: Because we're afraid to accept the reality that way back there in that first chapter of the book, God said, Hey guys and gals, uh I'm gonna rule there from here, but I'm gonna do it through you.
• 45:15
  SPEAKER_04: And I think that's that's the simplest encapsulation of of my view of theology and history, why history is so horrible and disgusting, and why it infuriates me when we say God's in control, because he he said way back there, here guys, I I'm I'm giving you this sphere temporarily, we don't know how long, but I'm gonna give you a lease, you know, sign here.
• 45:46
  SPEAKER_04: And for the terms of this lease, you're responsible for the stewardship of this planet.
• 45:52
  SPEAKER_04: And in the context of everything we're saying, you're responsible for wrestling with the power you have that's a gift, and learning how to use it so that others might flourish.
• 46:06
  SPEAKER_04: And and we're so far off track in every layer of that, right?
• 46:11
  SPEAKER_04: Um, but I love this stuff because it for me now, it has the potential to revolutionize the way the church lives.
• 46:22
  SPEAKER_02: Well, even our even our presentation again, understanding of the gospel, again, this is a broad broach comment, but we think of reconciliation only mainly only in the context of individual my reconciliation to God.
• 46:38
  SPEAKER_02: Yet it actually was a cosmos plan.
• 46:43
  SPEAKER_02: And we don't we don't see it in that context, which takes us back to Genesis 1.
• 46:48
  SPEAKER_02: God said it's broken.
• 46:50
  SPEAKER_02: I'm gonna let you redeem it through what I give you, but we don't think of the gospel in those terms generally.
• 46:57
  SPEAKER_04: I'll never forget Elden Lad.
• 46:59
  SPEAKER_04: Any of you ever read any Elden Lad?
• 47:00
  SPEAKER_04: Oh, yeah.
• 47:01
  SPEAKER_04: He wrote a lot about the kingdom.
• 47:03
  SPEAKER_04: I'll never forget something he said.
• 47:05
  SPEAKER_04: He said that uh individual salvation is the core of God's plan, but not the circumference.
• 47:14
  SPEAKER_07: That's right.
• 47:15
  SPEAKER_04: And what he meant was, like Ephesians 1, where it says, all things, yeah, all things will be brought under the headship of Christ.
• 47:24
  SPEAKER_04: And um, we're afraid of that kind of stuff.
• 47:28
  SPEAKER_04: Oh, you mean we're gonna take over the world.
• 47:31
  SPEAKER_04: No, we're gonna serve the world, and we're gonna demonstrate, and I'll go ahead and answer the my question, image bearing and power.
• 47:39
  SPEAKER_04: I think I think God made us to be like him and with the potential and capacity to exercise responsibility, authority, and power as he would if he were us.
• 47:58
  SPEAKER_04: But it doesn't come naturally or automatic.
• 48:03
  SPEAKER_04: And it in the fallen state, it goes against our it goes against our core instincts.
• 48:10
  SPEAKER_04: Our core instincts are are are to protect myself and you know how can you take what I have and whatever, whatever.
• 48:17
  SPEAKER_04: And um I think I think as we wrestle our way back to Ken, you brought up the concept of identity, as we as we wrestle our way back to who I really am.
• 48:29
  SPEAKER_04: You know, I'm a child of God.
• 48:32
  SPEAKER_04: I have a daddy who did all, he created all this, and he he has a way to protect me, use me.
• 48:40
  SPEAKER_04: Uh, he can abuse me if he wants to, I just don't think he wants to.
• 48:44
  SPEAKER_04: Um, but if I can learn to find my comfort there, my my peace there, my security there, and I realize that if if my if all that's rooted in God, then Adam can't take it from me.
• 48:58
  SPEAKER_04: Chris can't take it from me, Jeff can't take it from me.
• 49:01
  SPEAKER_06: Right, yeah.
• 49:02
  SPEAKER_04: And then I'm free.
• 49:04
  SPEAKER_04: Look at Adam, he thinks he can.
• 49:08
  SPEAKER_04: Then I'm free to power.
• 49:10
  SPEAKER_04: He wants a little more power.
• 49:12
  SPEAKER_04: Adam wants a little more power.
• 49:14
  SPEAKER_04: You know, I'm glad you that's discernment, Ken.
• 49:17
  SPEAKER_04: I know.
• 49:18
  SPEAKER_04: I asked him on the call.
• 49:19
  SPEAKER_04: I was hoping, I was hoping maybe Adam would grow a little bit through this call.
• 49:23
  SPEAKER_08: One thing that I was thinking about, Chip, and I don't I know that this is uh this might be teeing you up a little bit, but I wonder I wonder how our receptivity towards God's love and our our um and our ability to receive and correctly utilize power, how those two connect.
• 49:49
  SPEAKER_08: You know, I just think that um you know, I I think that as we um I I don't know how much you know I don't know how much power we're ready for if we're not um receptive to taken by, gripped by God's love.
• 50:11
  SPEAKER_08: Um you know, many of us can people that have power without love, and sometimes we envision love as not being powerful.
• 50:20
  SPEAKER_08: We think of people that are loving but not powerful as being very meek and nice, but I think that love and power maybe, I don't know, I or at least should be inextricably linked.
• 50:33
  SPEAKER_08: I don't think they always are.
• 50:36
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, I my my response to what you're saying, Chris, just knee-jerk would be like I I see two things as as uh mutually exclusive and and and proportionally mutually exclusive.
• 50:51
  SPEAKER_04: In other words, they they this much of one drives this much of the other out, and that's love and fear.
• 50:58
  SPEAKER_04: Love and fear.
• 51:00
  SPEAKER_04: However, full your bucket is of love, that's that much less of fear.
• 51:05
  SPEAKER_04: However, full it is of fear, that's that much less of love.
• 51:08
  SPEAKER_04: And fear, I would go so far as to say this, guys.
• 51:14
  SPEAKER_04: At the root of everything we're talking about is fear, yeah.
• 51:17
  SPEAKER_04: At the root of all the uses and abuses, misuses of power, at the root of it is fear.
• 51:25
  SPEAKER_04: Fear of uh all kinds of things.
• 51:27
  SPEAKER_04: And what does the Bible say?
• 51:29
  SPEAKER_04: Perfect love casts out fear.
• 51:32
  SPEAKER_04: And it it yeah, Chris, I think I think it's a brilliant observation.
• 51:37
  SPEAKER_04: I think there's a direct correlation, direct correlation between our experience of God's love and our ability to handle here's the thing, man.
• 51:49
  SPEAKER_04: We're gonna handle power.
• 51:50
  SPEAKER_04: That's the thing we gotta settle.
• 51:52
  SPEAKER_04: We have power.
• 51:53
  SPEAKER_04: The trick is figuring out how to look at it correctly, use it correctly.
• 51:57
  SPEAKER_04: And I think love drives out fear.
• 52:01
  SPEAKER_04: Um and that that's that's gonna make us much different in the way we utilize the power that we have.
• 52:10
  SPEAKER_07: I think we we all want power.
• 52:12
  SPEAKER_07: We at least we want the freedom that comes with power, but we do not want the responsibility that comes with power.
• 52:19
  SPEAKER_07: What we were talking about earlier makes me think about uh oh, I think it's Psalm 115 16, um, where it says, the earth belongs to the Lord.
• 52:30
  SPEAKER_07: No, excuse me, the heavens belong to the Lord, but the earth he gave to man.
• 52:35
  SPEAKER_07: And as we've gone through the past three months, I can't, I'm sure you guys have had the same experience.
• 52:42
  SPEAKER_07: I've had so many people ask, like, how can God let this happen?
• 52:46
  SPEAKER_07: How can God let this pandemic happen?
• 52:49
  SPEAKER_07: How can God let this whole racial explosion happen?
• 52:54
  SPEAKER_07: How can and and it's hard not to respond with, are we certain God made this happen?
• 53:01
  SPEAKER_07: Are we certain this is not our mess?
• 53:04
  SPEAKER_07: Remember, the earth was ours to rule.
• 53:08
  SPEAKER_07: The heavens belong to the Lord, but the earth he gave to man.
• 53:11
  SPEAKER_07: We want the power, we want the freedom that comes with power, but we we do we want to get rid of the responsibility that comes with it.
• 53:18
  SPEAKER_01: Right, Adam, I was thinking that same.
• 53:20
  SPEAKER_01: Sorry, Kim, go ahead.
• 53:22
  SPEAKER_02: Well, just Adam, in the context, you know, this obviously conversation with power, that would be more the answer now.
• 53:29
  SPEAKER_02: Is that this is simply the build-up, the accumulation of the power that we've been using.
• 53:34
  SPEAKER_02: How can we blame this on God?
• 53:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 53:38
  SPEAKER_01: I was thinking that same psalm, Adam, and I'm glad you brought it up.
• 53:42
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, because I was I was ready to I was ready to let that one fly.
• 53:45
  SPEAKER_01: But that goes back to a few weeks ago when we kind of started talking about this.
• 53:48
  SPEAKER_01: And again, we weren't really using the terms power, but uh along with that thought is I think sometimes like the the church doesn't like the answer that all power and authority has been given unto us to go and it's easier just to say, you know, God, God's in control, and you know, and just kind of abdicate that responsibility on him, and all the while God's like, nope, I've given you control.
• 54:12
  SPEAKER_01: Like you don't like what you see racially, then use your power to go be part of the solution.
• 54:19
  SPEAKER_01: Like you don't like what you see, whatever the situation may be.
• 54:23
  SPEAKER_01: Um and so again, it's a misuse of that's why it's interesting he says it's a gospel, you know, the power is a gospel thing, because again, there's so many, there's so many implications and ramifications of that statement, not just the saving power, but again, if we if we present the gospel as just a one-time thing and not a whole lifestyle, not a whole um the power of the gospel for us to have effect and change in the world, in the kingdom.
• 54:52
  SPEAKER_01: Um, if people are just sitting thinking the gospel is just a one-time event and you know, I'm saved and just waiting on God to rapture me out of here, and boy, it's getting bad, ain't it?
• 55:03
  SPEAKER_01: And be going, well, it'd be nice if the Lord came back today.
• 55:07
  SPEAKER_01: Um, that's just not the gospel, and that's a misuse and a weakened, cheapened version of the power that we actually possess and that the Lord has given us.
• 55:19
  SPEAKER_04: Let's do a quick chorus of I'll fly away.
• 55:29
  SPEAKER_02: I didn't know you even knew that song.
• 55:31
  SPEAKER_04: I'm not sure that I do other than it.
• 55:34
  SPEAKER_04: Other than to laugh at it.
• 55:36
  SPEAKER_04: I can fill the gaps in for you.
• 55:40
  SPEAKER_04: When I was pastor of my church, we didn't sing I'll fly away.
• 55:44
  SPEAKER_04: Every once in a while, they'd bust out into it just to rub me.
• 55:49
  SPEAKER_04: And uh we wouldn't really sing it, they would start into it, and everybody just bust out laughing because they'd heard me, whatever.
• 55:57
  SPEAKER_02: Hey Chip, here's my if I can, here's my personal three takeaways from the conversation of the book so far.
• 56:03
  SPEAKER_02: This has been phenomenal.
• 56:05
  SPEAKER_02: It's just the whole thing about how we we each individually have power.
• 56:10
  SPEAKER_02: That's just, I think, been a light bulb for many of us.
• 56:13
  SPEAKER_02: That every choice we make, everything we do, you know, it's an extension of power.
• 56:19
  SPEAKER_02: I love, I loved you flipping the question on us regarding where things aren't flourishing.
• 56:27
  SPEAKER_02: Is that an equation of is that a lack of power, lack of misuse of power or even the abdication of power?
• 56:34
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that's a great way to look at our own life and our own circle of influence.
• 56:39
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I know, and then the third, my third takeaway is this whole cultural moment that we're in, being able to look at it more for the through the grid of power, but what power I have to help in whatever way I can.
• 56:54
  SPEAKER_02: I you know, I think the caution here, and I think we're all reading it, is that the cultural moment has brought the conversation up and made it so obvious that we can't deny it anymore.
• 57:07
  SPEAKER_02: But we can't circumvent that it starts with us in our own life, in our own circle of influence.
• 57:15
  SPEAKER_02: And if we just jump to the, you know, the elevator or the top floor, like you said, instead of the, you know, we we've missed the main point.
• 57:23
  SPEAKER_02: It has ramifications there, but I'm reassessing my own life now.
• 57:27
  SPEAKER_02: I have power in almost in everything I do.
• 57:31
  SPEAKER_02: And if there's areas in my influence that aren't flourishing, it's somehow connected to either my abdication of the power I have or the misuse of the power I have.
• 57:40
  SPEAKER_02: If we took those on every level, it would move us forward to some degree.
• 57:45
  SPEAKER_04: Right.
• 57:47
  SPEAKER_04: Man, this is good stuff.
• 57:49
  SPEAKER_04: Thank you, Lord.
• 57:49
  SPEAKER_04: We we gotta knock it off, guys.
• 57:52
  SPEAKER_04: Um I'm gonna go.
• 57:54
  SPEAKER_03: Hey Chip, can I just uh can I just add this as we close?
• 57:58
  SPEAKER_03: Um that I think you see a picture of what you're talking about there, uh, you know, from the kind of the beginning of our conversation and even you know in in Genesis in in the you know, Genesis one, you know, we talked about at the beginning about just how that word power is unsettling to us.
• 58:17
  SPEAKER_03: Uh and and and you know, it's it's probably it's probably some truth that it's unsettling because just that word makes us feel small, you know, and but what does that tell us about the way we see ourselves?
• 58:31
  SPEAKER_03: And what does that tell us about our identity?
• 58:33
  SPEAKER_03: So what what you're seeing, I think, even with just using the word power, you know, we're seeing the we're seeing the sin side of what power and identity look like.
• 58:48
  SPEAKER_03: Now, if you go, if you go, if you go to the original style of sin, what you see is you see power and identity used the proper way.
• 59:02
  SPEAKER_03: So Adam was given this dominion over man.
• 59:05
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, what did he do with that when he said rule and have dominion?
• 59:10
  SPEAKER_03: He went out and he he named and he out of pure identity, he gave identity.
• 59:22
  SPEAKER_03: He used that power because he knew who he was, and he and he didn't feel small, he he knew who he was, and he knew how the power of God had given him, he used it the proper way.
• 59:33
  SPEAKER_03: So, what did he do?
• 59:34
  SPEAKER_03: He helped others flourish.
• 59:36
  SPEAKER_03: He there was a multiplication effect, there was an identity that he gave out of having pure identity himself.
• 59:43
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and so I think there's a great picture there of power and identity when it's pure and in in the intended state, and then after sin, what what happens with it?
• 59:56
  SPEAKER_03: We see hiding, we see shame, we see identity, we see all of and all that that comes with it powerful and profound.