Latest / The Curve / RTC86: Figuring out what your rich life is with Laurie Wang.

Transcript

RTC86: Figuring out what your rich life is with Laurie Wang. · The Curve

0:00
Welcome to Raising the Curth, a podcast designed to teach you everything you need to know
0:05
to be better with your money.
0:07
And the wise words of Amy Schumer were slipping carrots into the brownie recipe.
0:11
I don't really get the saying.
0:14
It's kind of like eating vegetables that actually taste good.
0:17
You know, I'm like, still not ready to eat.
0:19
Are you on the script?
0:20
It's basically like saying, investing in finance can be boring but it totally doesn't
0:26
need to be.
0:27
OK, OK, so we're making it fun by putting the carrot.
0:31
OK, the vegetables are just good for you.
0:33
It's the brownie recipe.
0:35
OK, we got there, we got there.
0:36
OK, OK.
0:37
Well, you've really got a finance mate.
0:39
Yeah, one of us has to.
0:41
This is true.
0:42
OK, come and learn alongside me from Vick Harris, ex-fun manager.
0:45
Well, I'm going to ask all the questions that you wish you could.
0:49
And I'm going to be eating all the brownie you wish you could.
0:51
No, that's so not the joke, Vick.
0:53
Oh, OK, just come and talk and learn and laugh with us.
0:56
Because together, we really can raise the curve.
1:01
So we had an amazing chat with a wonderful lady called Laurie Wang.
1:05
Yeah, who kind of took us by surprise at the funny how we do research for our guests.
1:09
And then when we get them in, we're like, oh, shit, scrap the research.
1:12
Yeah.
1:12
And you just start chatting and you're like, wow, I can really see this being a
1:16
relationship that we will have for a long time.
1:19
Well, we actually, after this conversation, we've already arranged to hang out with Laurie again.
1:23
We loved her.
1:24
Yeah.
1:25
And we know you will, too.
1:26
She's such an interesting person because what she basically did was hop from a
1:30
completely different industry to a completely different one.
1:33
And then went from the security of working for companies like Google big
1:36
corporates into being her own boss.
1:38
Yes.
1:39
And what I really love from this chat was how she spoke about that flow state.
1:43
Yeah, finding your flow and it was such an interesting view on your career
1:48
and your career trajectory.
1:50
100% yeah.
1:52
And she's had a kid and she's very successful in inverted commas in like your
1:57
traditional successful way.
1:58
Like obviously financially she's done super well.
2:00
Yeah.
2:01
But I also think the balance that she's found between her personal life and work
2:06
and everything was super inspiring.
2:08
Like this was this whole conversation I loved and I know that you'll get a lot
2:13
of little gems out of it.
2:14
We had quite a few people met just lately being like, do you have any business
2:18
podcast coming out?
2:20
What's this face?
2:21
Yeah.
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So we know that you're going to love it and without further ado.
2:26
Let's chat to Laurie.
2:28
It's great to have you here.
2:29
Thank you so much.
2:30
We're very excited to kind of just I guess we just love having guests in the studio.
2:35
Yeah.
2:36
I get sick of talking to you sometimes.
2:37
Same.
2:38
I get sick of things that I like have to share.
2:39
I'm like I'd love to learn from somebody else.
2:41
Yes.
2:42
Very excited.
2:43
So welcome.
2:44
Oh, thanks for having me.
2:45
I love the podcast.
2:46
So great to be here.
2:47
It's a compliment.
2:48
Honestly, when smart, clever people listen to our podcast, I just think, shit.
2:52
Oh, we're not a joke.
2:53
Sometimes sound a bit less stupid because there's some clever people that listen.
3:01
Yes.
3:02
Normally with these interviews, we would kind of dig into who you are and explore some of your
3:08
career moves and then at the end, we would talk about finance and money and tips and tricks
3:15
and things that you could share when it comes to your investing and all of that.
3:18
But we were like, let's do that.
3:20
Let's start.
3:21
Mixing up.
3:22
Because you are a finance profish.
3:23
And we, I'm sure that that's going to be a mess of take away.
3:26
And I also thought a measure of people don't listen to the whole podcast and then they
3:29
miss the best bit.
3:30
Yeah.
3:31
Yeah.
3:32
So I'd love to start with, I mean, our podcast is obviously aiming at a people who are
3:36
wanting to improve their financial knowledge and invest and be financially free.
3:43
And I guess with that comes, for a lot of people, a lack of how.
3:49
So in your experience, what kind of saving tips or money tips or how you manage your money,
3:56
do you think might be helpful for other people to hear?
3:58
Great question.
3:59
And I think for me, being your mom was we talked about earlier.
4:02
And also doing everything else in my business, doing all the things I do for my content creation.
4:06
There's just not enough time to look at finances all the time.
4:09
And I think that's also what a lot of people think.
4:11
It's like, it's always on the to-do list.
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Do you know what I mean?
4:14
Like, yeah.
4:15
Not my club.
4:16
Not one of you do this.
4:17
No, it's even on my to-do list.
4:20
It's like, update your budget.
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And it's like, if it's just such a thing that people put off, but it's a necessary thing to do.
4:26
So totally appreciate that when you've got a kid as well, trying to find time to do that.
4:30
It's off to you.
4:31
Yeah, but at the same time, you know, you kind of know that you have to do it, right?
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Because you want to create a stable financial future for your kids, for your family.
4:38
And one of the things I did is actually did this automation in the background.
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I'm a bit of a tech nerd.
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So I thought, why not use the tech tools out there available, especially within the financial apps that we have nowadays, to make it easier for yourself?
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So I just did this automation where each month, you know, whenever this money coming in from my business accounts, my personal accounts,
4:57
and then the money within automatically be taken out into an investment account and then go into a savings part.
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So really all that's kind of done the background.
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And I just had to go in there every month to make sure that automations are going smoothly according to plan.
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I think that just really saved me so much more time, but also just not having to worry about all these things happening in the background.
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But knowing that also my investments are being done automatically.
5:18
I believe in the dollar averaging effect.
5:20
And you guys probably know this really well, right?
5:22
Speaking my language.
5:23
Oh, gosh.
5:24
She can come on the podcast again.
5:26
Yes, absolutely.
5:28
For those who don't know what dollar cost averaging is, it's like what Laurie said, very much automating, just investing, a set amount every week, every month, in terms of no matter what the market's doing.
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So if the market's down, you're investing, if the market's up, you're investing.
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It removes that temptation of spending that money because it's automatic, you get used to it.
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You kind of don't really know that it's gone.
5:50
Another way to think about it is just like how you pay a rent.
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It's a payment that's just your expense that has to go out.
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And so rather than thinking about it as a like, do I have leftover?
6:01
It's just automating it.
6:03
So it's just a part of what goes out every single week before you have access to the rest of it, right?
6:07
Yeah.
6:08
The tons of research has been done around the fact that dollar cost averaging is a way better investing strategy than trying to...
6:14
Try to time the market and be like, oh, the market's going up, I won't invest in the market's going down, I'll take money out and all that kind of stuff.
6:20
Yeah, love that you do that.
6:21
That's great.
6:22
Yeah, I'm really just going to...
6:23
Something I learned very early on in my career because when I started out, I worked for this amazing boss of mine
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back in New York City as an intern in this private wealth management company in New York.
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And he just really kind of taught me very early on about the market, about how you should think about time horizon, think about dollar averaging.
6:39
So for those who don't know about this, you know, a lot of times the longer you invest, the more potential return you can actually collect as well over time.
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Because of how you have given it longer in the market to actually benefit from that rise.
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And all that really kind of instilled in me very early on to think about this.
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Even though at the time I would say I didn't grow up with a very good financial knowledge from my parents I'll bring.
6:58
But I think that later on in that career path, that really kind of gave me a great foundation to do that.
7:03
And it's interesting that you say, we've heard it from a lot of people that start every single journey as there's usually like one person or someone that I guess will sit down and explain it to them and explain the benefits.
7:13
And then they go from there.
7:15
It's the light bulb moment.
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And just like on the turn the light on.
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And as soon as you see the light, you're like, I get it.
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Why would I ever not do that?
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And we need more people like that in the world.
7:27
Switching the lights on. Switching the lights are on free right now.
7:30
You guys are doing that, right?
7:32
I'm like, that's free.
7:33
Not too many more. Not too many more.
7:35
No, no, no.
7:37
What are those?
7:38
You spoke about the automation of your investments and savings.
7:41
How many different accounts do you have?
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And how do you split that in terms of your paycheck?
7:45
I really believe in simplicity.
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And that makes it a lot easier for you to keep track of everything.
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But also just have a bird's IV where everything's going.
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I think a lot of people have too many accounts opened.
7:56
Either it's your current accounts where they entice you to get this automated deposits after you open.
8:02
It could be like savings accounts where you think that one's getting a better rate.
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But actually just having one single account of your current account.
8:10
One single savings that you believe is giving you the best return right now.
8:13
And then an investment account.
8:15
That's all I have really. Very simple.
8:17
And so in your investing account is that into a fund, like active funds,
8:22
are you picking stocks? What's your investment strategy?
8:25
Yeah, very passive.
8:26
And I also believe in the fact that if you just go with,
8:30
I diversify that as you can in your investment.
8:32
So in my case, just index funds and keep the cost of management fees low.
8:37
Then that actually gives you a higher return in the longer period.
8:40
But that's just my personal philosophy, not investment advice at all.
8:44
Yeah, yeah.
8:45
No, and just to bear human dictionary for that little bit that Laurie said.
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So passive income or passive investing is just,
8:52
it is investing in ETFs which are exchange traded funds.
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So that's just you are effectively buying a slice of,
9:00
how do we describe it the other day?
9:01
Oh, fruit salad.
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So instead of going and just buying the orange or the banana,
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you're buying a bit of a fruit salad, so you're getting a bit of everything.
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So it's spreading your risk around and investing in lots of different companies.
9:15
And a really easy way.
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And they say passive because it's literally,
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you're kind of sitting back and relaxing and letting it do its stuff.
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And it's cheaper because there's not someone out there going to find all those investments for you.
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Like there is with active, which is the opposite.
9:30
Yeah, we were talking about this to actually at the event last night.
9:32
Yeah.
9:33
The idea of a fund being like we had images up on screen and it was like a skewer with fruit on it.
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And it was like a cute little slice bit of, I don't know,
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there was like a blueberry and it was strawberries and like,
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you know, one of the fruits that would be selected by someone who was an active fund manager,
9:49
picking all the ones that they think had been the most delicious or the most successful.
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And then the ETF would be almost like grabbing every single fruit and vegetable
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from the market and chuck it in them.
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And you know, some of the bananas might be rotten.
10:02
Some of the fruit might be a bit off,
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but there will also be some really amazing fruit in their turn.
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It's just kind of like really low touch.
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You don't have that person curating the, picking the funds.
10:11
Yeah.
10:12
Yeah, exactly.
10:13
And then all of it comes back to, you know, time as well.
10:15
I just realized that me getting my schedule,
10:17
I don't have the time to monitor stocks or different funds, you know, very instinctively.
10:22
But why can't you is just put my money in there very passively every month
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and just load through this thing?
10:28
And there's nothing wrong with that.
10:29
Like a lot of people think that they have to be out hunting or finding
10:32
or researching companies to invest in.
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And you know, if that's not, you don't have time for that or that doesn't interest you,
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then you can totally just do passive investing and invest in ETFs.
10:43
You still will get a great return, hopefully, over the long term.
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But yeah, so don't stress yourself out.
10:49
Yeah, definitely.
10:50
We're like, oh God, I have to find all these companies to invest in.
10:53
Yeah.
10:54
It's just, I like your simplistic view of investing in terms of make it easy for yourself.
10:59
So true.
11:00
Because it is easy.
11:01
It is easy.
11:02
Yeah.
11:03
And also you actually will manage to do it more frequently that way as well.
11:06
It's awesome.
11:07
And actually just digging your head in the sand.
11:08
I have no idea what I'm doing.
11:09
Yeah.
11:10
It's exactly unenjoyable.
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And then you're like, never doing it again.
11:12
It's like, no, no, let's make this fun.
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Let's business something simple, easy, watch it grow.
11:16
Then you get addicted and you want to keep doing it.
11:18
You want to keep adding to it because it's doing really well.
11:20
That's the kind of.
11:22
And how much of your savings, like what percentage of your income or what flows into your account
11:27
goes into the savings and the investment versus what you then live off?
11:31
I would say because before kids, I used to have a lot more percentages,
11:35
like for example, 20, 30% going to my savings slash investments,
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depending on whichever I want to split that way for that month.
11:41
But since I had kids, it's a lot less because obviously your lot goes into raising a child
11:45
and it does get very expensive in London.
11:48
But I do still try to put about 10% into my savings and investments,
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at least just regularly in the background in the automation.
11:55
If there's anything left, then obviously I can always put in later as well.
11:58
And do you have any other investments outside your investments in the start market?
12:02
Do you have property or anything like that?
12:05
So very small percentages of it is also just kind of different my toes in cryptocurrency.
12:10
But that's only because I actually worked on the Cardano launch back in 2017 in Tokyo.
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I saw the potential of blockchain and cryptocurrency can bring for us in the future.
12:21
I think it's a very long-term play because obviously it's very new right now,
12:25
emerging tech, people are still getting gross into what you can do.
12:28
But I think in 10, 20 years' time there could be a lot of potential there.
12:31
But I want to just put a little very small amount as a little future bet
12:34
in terms of what that can grow into.
12:36
But that's pretty much it.
12:37
We've got some crypto.
12:38
Yeah, we've got a shade account.
12:39
Yeah, really.
12:40
We've got a shade account.
12:41
Should we look?
12:42
I'd love to know.
12:43
Oh, don't.
12:44
As if you've forgotten a password.
12:46
You're the last person in the world I would ever assume to forget a password.
12:50
I reckon she's lying.
12:51
I think she's trying to let make me stressed.
12:53
I can see by her face.
12:54
Just totally trying to make a day joke.
12:56
No.
12:57
I'll just run away.
12:58
It's just worth a million.
12:59
I'm like, sorry if she's can't get hold of her.
13:01
She's speeding on my reach.
13:02
You don't tend to be in a situation like this.
13:04
No, we were the same because I was like, look, I think it is a very high risk
13:09
asset to invest in right now.
13:11
It's an investment.
13:12
But I think what you were saying, I think there is potential in the future for digital currencies.
13:16
And we just had so many people asking us about crypto.
13:18
We're like, well, you know what?
13:19
Maybe we should just invest in it so that we can kind of understand it better.
13:22
But yes, very small portion.
13:24
Yeah.
13:25
Absolutely.
13:26
And it comes in ways.
13:27
Every few years, you feel like the process picks it up.
13:28
And then obviously Bitcoin goes to the roof.
13:30
And then everyone in his grandma has Bitcoin.
13:32
And then you know, that's one that's actually really unsustainable.
13:35
So yes, when your grandma's talking about Bitcoin, that's when you sell your Bitcoin.
13:38
Yeah.
13:39
Yeah.
13:40
Like the taxi driver analogy we used to have at work.
13:44
I don't know if I spoke about this in progress many times.
13:46
Yeah.
13:47
Oh, okay.
13:48
But go again.
13:49
Oh, okay.
13:50
It's one of the taxi drivers talking about a stock or something to invest in like crypto.
13:54
That's when you sell.
13:55
Yeah.
13:56
Because that means that everyone's bought it.
13:57
So there's no one else to buy it.
13:58
And so yeah.
13:59
So the poor taxi driver could be really ahead of the game.
14:02
You never know.
14:03
Have you had any plunkers like any really bad investments?
14:06
Yeah.
14:07
So that's the reason why I'm actually doing passive more nowadays.
14:09
Okay.
14:10
Because in the early days, that was very much like I said,
14:12
I would pick those individual stocks and it wouldn't do well.
14:14
And then they're actually not very diversifying the portfolio.
14:17
And when you go in there and check your investments, it's gone down 40%, 50%.
14:20
And you just feel like you're completely failure, right?
14:23
In terms of what you've done.
14:24
So I think that was the reason why I learned maybe I should just leave it in terms of
14:28
a much more passive, you know, ETF version of this where I can just get a little bit everything.
14:33
And just let it run the background whether the market's up or market's down.
14:36
Doesn't really matter.
14:37
And just keep investing that way.
14:39
So I literally transitioned everything from that early stage in my early 20s.
14:43
I learned, you know, kind of how I shouldn't do it in that way.
14:46
And how I'm not like a day trader.
14:48
I'm not a personal, I guess, investment guru.
14:51
So I really leave it up to the experts were just at least in the index funds where it's just a little bit everything.
14:56
What was the company?
14:58
Was there a few?
14:59
Am I last mentioned here?
15:00
Yeah, yeah.
15:01
It was a plonker, then people weren't being there.
15:04
No, I've definitely mentioned mine.
15:06
Yeah, so my one was called CapEx.
15:08
There's actually this generator that you use in smart devices and things like that,
15:12
which I thought has some potential to run there.
15:14
But the stock just didn't do very well.
15:16
There must be something in terms of legal ramifications in the company that happened the background.
15:20
While I was too busy doing everything else, I did not keep a track of.
15:23
So it plunged like 60, 90% of the total values.
15:27
So at what point do you like, I need to sell this and get out?
15:32
You know, at what point did you lose that faith and this company's not going to do well?
15:36
Yeah, I get what you're saying because sometimes you don't want to realize it.
15:38
Yeah, and I mean, it's a question where you'd ask all the time and there's no right answer.
15:42
Someone said at the event last night I was too scared to ask the question when to sell,
15:46
because she was like, is it a really silly question?
15:48
It's actually a really important question because we always talk about when to buy.
15:52
But we never talk about when to sell.
15:54
So was there a moment for you when you thought, okay, actually, I'm just going to call it?
15:58
I think I've been monitoring for a while and I just saw that it wasn't bouncing back.
16:01
And I thought, maybe I could write it out, but it didn't happen.
16:04
And I thought, might as well shift whatever is left in that versatility,
16:07
something that actually will gain in the future.
16:09
So if you shift your mindset that way, it might make it a little bit less painful.
16:13
And can I ask, how much should you lose in that scenario?
16:15
Like, was it $1,000? Was it $50,000?
16:18
Like, was it a lot?
16:19
It was about $3,000 in that $3,000 in that investment.
16:23
That you lost?
16:24
Enough to hurt.
16:25
Yes, definitely.
16:26
That's right.
16:27
Especially when you care so much about what you put into it and everything else you had to spend money on.
16:32
But yeah, at that point, it was really hurting.
16:34
And it can really hurt, like you say, when you've done a lot of research,
16:38
you think, you know, the company really well.
16:40
It's almost like that's wasted time as well because now you're just selling it moving on
16:44
and you've put all this time in effort into looking at this company and seeing if it's going to do well
16:47
to just sell and move on.
16:48
And I found that was the hardest thing when I was investing is that you kind of get this attachment
16:52
to the companies that you invest in.
16:54
But I want to wind things back a little bit.
16:57
So you're working at some really large organizations and then you decided to go out on your own.
17:02
What was the thought process behind that?
17:05
Was it for personal growth?
17:07
Was it for, you know, financial growth?
17:10
And did you have a bit of a financial plan before you did that and you stepped into, you know, working for yourself?
17:16
So before I kind of did that, I really thought about what's the runway I can have in terms of
17:21
I can actually sustain this for a while before I decided to call the quits and head back to a job basically.
17:27
And I was examining kind of what my savings, make sure I had about six months or so runway
17:32
that I can actually just do this and give it a try.
17:34
No way.
17:35
You had six months essentially of emergency fund basically to live off of you weren't getting income.
17:40
I've income.
17:41
I think I've been planning it for a while and back in my head because while I was working the career,
17:45
I was thinking, you know, there's something else I want to do.
17:47
I want to kind of create something in my own terms.
17:49
And because you have that motivation drive, you just think about how much can I put away every month from my paycheck
17:55
to kind of save for that rainy day or runway that's coming up.
17:58
And I think a lot of people who are listening to this were looking to switch from a side hustle to a full time,
18:02
to a full time business probably can identify with this in a sense that you have to have that safety net
18:07
where when you're working your business, you don't have to worry about the financial aspect of it to stress you out
18:12
because there's so many other things stressing out already in terms of building it.
18:16
So the best you can do for yourself for that period is give yourself that financial backing.
18:20
So you can take on the clients that you want to work with, run into the account, take on any job
18:25
or anything that comes your way.
18:27
I can't resonate with that more because I also think there's a feeling of fear of failure
18:34
whenever you step into the unknown, especially if it's your own business or an idea that you feel really passionate about.
18:41
And to be able to give yourself a little bit of breathing space to figure it out,
18:46
rather than it turning into this really horrible experience where you feel soup anxious
18:50
and if it doesn't work, it's all going to turn to custard and end up blaming and hating the job
18:56
because you just get into terrible mindset.
18:58
What you thought was going to be a great step in the right direction fuse.
19:01
All of a sudden turns into this really kind of toxic and terrifying place.
19:06
So to be able to give yourself that financial safety net of six months
19:10
to know that you have like some time to really make this happen,
19:14
I think that's so clever.
19:15
And for anyone listening who is, as you say, thinking about that or maybe in the future,
19:20
if you give yourself a goal for me personally, I can make something happen.
19:24
If I know that I'm doing it for something, I think when you're like,
19:28
oh, a rainy day, I'm putting that for a rainy day.
19:30
It's so terrifying.
19:31
It's hard to quantify what a rainy day is.
19:33
I also really liked your point about being able to take on the clients that you want to.
19:37
You know, you're not in the weeds being like, oh, gosh,
19:40
yes, we'll just take your money because we have to grow.
19:42
Or I need revenue for my business.
19:44
You can actually create a business that you're proud of
19:48
and with clients that you're proud of rather than, you know,
19:51
taking everything and anything that comes your way because you're so desperate for the money.
19:54
Your background was in finances and companies that were working,
19:59
equity, trading, et cetera.
20:01
And then you sidesteped into marketing and digital strategy
20:07
and creating revenue for businesses online.
20:10
I mean, if I kind of like that, because the finance person
20:13
and then I am the person that's doing similar to what you're amazing at,
20:17
and for us, we're like, wow, we've got such different parts of our brain working here.
20:20
It's kind of fascinating to hear that you've gone from one extreme to the other.
20:23
I'm just curious, it's like how that happened
20:25
and also was it difficult to sidestep?
20:28
Yeah, you're like both of us.
20:29
Yeah, you should start a podcast.
20:31
Yeah, just talk to yourself.
20:32
Just talk to yourself.
20:33
I know that she's your help.
20:34
Yeah, yeah.
20:35
Which I'm worried about that later.
20:37
Yeah, yeah.
20:38
She's mine.
20:39
Everyone comes in wanting to steal her.
20:43
I'm like, no, no.
20:45
Yeah, great question, because I, at the time,
20:51
when I first kind of started my career,
20:53
I grew up in this very traditional first-generation Chinese immigrant family in the US.
20:58
So anyone who's listening with summer background, they probably know this.
21:02
Your parents always are pushing you towards a very traditional career path,
21:06
either as a doctor, as a lawyer, or in finance.
21:09
And for me, the time, I told them more towards finance,
21:11
just because I like the social science behind it.
21:13
So I studied economics in university.
21:15
I thought it could make a career out of this.
21:17
And I went for that.
21:19
But five years in, even though I learned so much about personal investment,
21:22
which I'm eternally grateful for till today,
21:25
and learning more about the financial system and everything around that,
21:28
I think it wasn't truly my passion.
21:30
And I've a lot of friends in the industry who are still doing that today
21:33
and doing it really, really well.
21:34
And I'm really happy for them.
21:36
But for me personally, it wasn't something that I guess I wanted to do for the rest of my life.
21:41
And that was a difficult period for me because I felt like I really hit rock bottom
21:45
on trying to figure out what I want to do.
21:47
I think some people here might recognize this feeling as well,
21:49
where you've been pushing for this one goal your whole life.
21:53
And then all of a sudden, you realize this is not the one that you've been going for,
21:56
not the partly one to go on.
21:57
What do you want to do then?
21:59
So I started doing a bit of soul searching,
22:01
and you know, talking to different friends,
22:03
we're working different industries.
22:04
What kind of soul searching?
22:05
I'd love to know where you were with that.
22:07
Was it like, I just think of my language.
22:10
So I started reading a lot of different books on, like for example,
22:14
career paths, like the one about,
22:16
and it's a very classic one called,
22:17
What colors your parachute,
22:18
which is the one that you remember quite a few long.
22:20
I mean, I'm a bit old now at this point.
22:22
So those of you guys who don't know this book,
22:24
don't worry, it's been quite a few years ago.
22:26
I'm getting going at it now.
22:27
But yeah, that's a really good one.
22:29
And the ones called, I think, design your career,
22:33
design your life or something like that,
22:34
where it really kind of takes you back to get set back, right?
22:37
Think about, what's the overall goal you're going for here?
22:40
And whether you always been interested in what takes your flow, right?
22:43
And how do you...
22:44
I love that, what takes your flow.
22:46
Yeah, you know how you get into something so much?
22:48
You've got time passes.
22:50
It's almost like, honestly, what a lot of artists talk about
22:53
when they're creating art.
22:54
They just go into this flow state,
22:56
and it's just almost like the art is working through them.
22:59
So is the whole premise trying to find career out of
23:03
when you feel and flow?
23:04
Or is it the idea that you just are starting to become more familiar
23:08
with things that you really enjoy and come naturally to you
23:12
in terms of the process for you figuring that out career-wise?
23:15
Did you start noting all of those things that you were in flow state for?
23:19
Yeah, as a mixture of that, I would say.
23:21
So I personally believe passions not to be found,
23:25
where a lot of people say out there,
23:27
go find your passion, things like that.
23:29
I do find that kind of advice very misleading
23:32
because I find that passion is something that you have to
23:35
just try new things to experiment with
23:37
and see what really feels aligned to you.
23:40
And that's how I found mine over time slowly.
23:42
So I start going to different events in the city
23:45
where at the time, silicon ran about
23:47
with just about to kind of really pop off
23:49
as a place where startups and digital technology coming together.
23:53
I start going to a lot of those events
23:55
and meeting people, talking to them about what they're working on,
23:57
and finding out the same time a friend of mine
24:00
was posting about his job at a digital agency in New York City.
24:04
And I was just really curious, I was thinking,
24:06
this sounds like too fun to be a career path to be going on.
24:10
But it sounds too good to be true, but I want to find out more.
24:12
And he put me in touch with a friend of his working in the London office.
24:16
And I just went in there with no strings attached,
24:19
just a little informational interview.
24:21
And it came out just feeling like this is amazing industry to be in,
24:24
and there's a lot of potential to be happening.
24:26
So this is one, you know, Facebook was only around
24:28
as a social media platform and Twitter, and that's pretty much it.
24:31
And really kind of, it was just about in the cusp of
24:34
really becoming a digital revolution
24:37
for all kinds of businesses and brands out there.
24:39
And I just thought maybe I should dive in and see what happens.
24:43
And at this point in my career,
24:45
I didn't have any obligations yet, obviously,
24:47
with kids and family.
24:49
And I thought, if I don't do it now,
24:51
it won't be a better time to do this.
24:53
So it was a big kind of step back in terms of obviously pay.
24:56
It's a big part of it coming from finance into advertising.
24:59
And especially advertising at the bottom.
25:01
Yeah.
25:02
It is basically working for free.
25:04
Yeah.
25:05
Basically in the London as well,
25:06
where you can barely afford your rent.
25:08
That's a lot like hats off to you for not even knowing
25:11
if you're going to enjoy it and giving it a go.
25:13
Like that's scary in itself.
25:15
Did you had your signature resignation at this point?
25:17
Like were you not working?
25:18
Or were you doing all of this soul searching
25:21
and talking to people at a time
25:23
when you were still employed in the finance industry?
25:26
I was still employed there, naturally.
25:28
So it was so much more stressful.
25:30
You were more stressful, exactly.
25:31
I've got to find my flow.
25:32
I've got to find my flow.
25:33
Make the same quickly rating on these books.
25:36
Where's my parachute?
25:39
Yeah.
25:40
I'll call a penguin dude.
25:41
Maybe they will go open.
25:44
So that was really good that I was doing that while I was working.
25:48
And I was able to, like I said earlier,
25:50
kind of put that money away also during that time
25:52
for a little bit of runway.
25:53
So every bit of my transition,
25:55
I really start doing that,
25:56
learning very early on the duet.
25:57
Yeah.
25:58
And then three months later,
25:59
they came back and said,
26:00
actually we have a vacancy in our team
26:02
looking after someone,
26:03
a lot of clients were in the financial industry.
26:05
But wants to learn about digital as well,
26:07
given that I'm coming in very new at that point.
26:10
And I thought, wow, that's perfect.
26:12
It was a perfect fit, right?
26:14
Found myself.
26:15
Yeah.
26:16
That's perfect.
26:17
So it just really shows also, you know,
26:19
when you're looking to meet that switch,
26:21
a lot of times just don't be afraid to go out there
26:23
and talk to people.
26:24
Because they're probably your best,
26:26
I would say, eyes and ears on the ground
26:29
when they come to find those opportunities for you,
26:31
because you're telling them exactly what you're looking for.
26:33
And when those opportunities do come up,
26:35
you're actually front of mind for that as well.
26:37
And I think even a step before that is you are saying you asked,
26:41
so many questions and you talk to people
26:43
and you understand what they do.
26:45
A lot of us are very siloed
26:46
and understanding what opportunities and jobs
26:49
and skills that are out there.
26:51
Because if you've always been a plumber
26:53
or you've always been in digital marketing,
26:55
you've always been a lawyer,
26:57
you don't really understand a lot about the different industries
27:01
and opportunities and the more that you talk to people
27:03
and find out about what they're doing for work.
27:06
It just opens up your eyes to new things
27:08
that you might never have come across.
27:10
And I think that probably was a really part of the flow finding
27:13
because you would have been like boring, boring,
27:16
and you would have had these moments
27:18
and then that kind of is what leads you eventually
27:21
to the job that you ended up taking at that marketing agency.
27:24
Absolutely, I really want to put it.
27:25
No, but it's very true.
27:26
It's like, yeah, the more people you can talk to.
27:28
And I can hindsight it, wish I'd done that when I was younger.
27:31
But you're scared and you're intimidated.
27:32
And you're like, you don't like asking for help either.
27:34
You're not the sort of person to ask how to do that.
27:36
I've got it. I've got it.
27:37
I've got it. I've got it.
27:38
Distraughting. I'm fine.
27:39
I mean, like even for us,
27:41
like trying to understand digital marketing.
27:43
Because digital marketing has never been a strength of either of us.
27:46
I mean, I've done content creation,
27:48
but digital marketing is a whole nother space.
27:50
And the moment that we started talking to more CEOs and entrepreneurs
27:53
and angel investors and all sorts of things,
27:55
the more that we learned.
27:57
And I remember at the start,
27:58
you were like, I don't think we should talk to too many people.
28:00
And then we both got more comfortable with sharing.
28:03
We were at personal leave.
28:04
And from a business perspective,
28:06
and the more open you can be,
28:08
the more people can help you.
28:10
Because no one's going to know if you're interested in swapping careers,
28:14
unless you talk to them about it.
28:15
So I think that's a really great point.
28:17
So you went from the financial industry,
28:20
then you went into digital marketing,
28:22
and obviously just exploded and did amazing things.
28:25
And then you stepped out to being,
28:27
as you were saying before that,
28:29
you had about a six month runway to work for yourself
28:32
and try and get your own clients and whatnot.
28:34
Did you get to a point in your career
28:36
where you thought, I'm earning good money,
28:38
I've learned as much as I can in an agency perspective.
28:42
And I want to try something different,
28:45
or was it for financial reasons?
28:47
What was the main driver in working for yourself
28:50
opposed to within an agency?
28:52
So about, I would say,
28:54
year and a half into that agency role.
28:56
I got promoted quite quickly,
28:57
because I just was really keen to learn as much as I can on that role.
29:01
And I thought, at that point,
29:03
I got enough money needed
29:05
in order to succeed in the next challenge.
29:07
And I was always looking for the next challenge, right?
29:09
And at this point,
29:11
Google actually came to me with a proposal
29:13
of actually working on their digital training program,
29:16
development across the UK.
29:17
And this program has been something
29:19
that's really close to my heart ever since then,
29:21
because it's a program designed for small businesses
29:24
and individuals to love up their skills,
29:26
and learning all this digital knowledge,
29:28
which really sounds a lot more complicated than it should be.
29:31
So what I was doing really was to simplify
29:33
and make it easy in that content
29:35
for people to understand.
29:37
And when I went into the whole country
29:39
launching this program,
29:41
and it was just something that really created a lot of impact
29:43
in people's lives and their businesses.
29:45
So at this point, I thought,
29:47
maybe there's something here
29:49
that I felt so good about doing.
29:51
Is it something that I can continue to do
29:53
in my own thing after Google?
29:55
And so after Google, I just decided to actually launch
29:57
my digital marketing training company,
29:59
which is what you guys see me doing nowadays.
30:01
And that was the reason really from this step out,
30:03
is I thought, if I felt so good doing this at a company,
30:06
what if I started doing this in my own
30:08
training individual businesses, individuals,
30:10
or company corporate teams,
30:12
and how they can level up their digital marketing strategies,
30:15
as you mentioned?
30:16
I totally understand how your perspective on finding your passion
30:20
is a kind of a way to put it,
30:22
but also the fact that you sort of fell into another flow state,
30:27
I think is so much credit to you
30:30
and being really aware of how you feel doing different work
30:34
and being in different environments
30:36
because we can sleepwalk through a lot of our life
30:39
and I think paying attention to those times
30:41
where you feel good about something
30:43
and then thinking, how can I amplify this?
30:45
How can I make more money doing this?
30:47
How can I create a business out of this?
30:49
Is there something that I could do sustainably
30:52
in a different way?
30:53
I just think that's really inspiring,
30:56
probably for a lot of people to start looking at
30:58
what they do for work or in their days or weeks.
31:01
They feel like, oh, this is maybe a flow state for me.
31:04
And it might be even like 10% of your current job
31:07
that you do that you absolutely love
31:09
and you hate the rest of the 90% of the rest of it.
31:12
I really hate people who hate knives.
31:14
But you know, it's like finding that little bit
31:17
and being like, okay, yeah, what do I like about that
31:19
and can I take that and run over that?
31:21
Because you spend, yeah, most people spend
31:23
five out of seven days a week working
31:25
and if you're doing that in something toxic
31:27
or something that you don't like,
31:28
God, you're going to have such a better life
31:30
if you're actually figuring out, yeah, I actually enjoy this.
31:33
This is my passion.
31:34
I'm achieving something bigger than just turning up to work.
31:38
Oh, just getting a paycheck.
31:39
Yeah.
31:40
Exactly.
31:41
And don't feel like your career is a linear path as well.
31:44
A lot of people don't think that's one that was another.
31:46
But you can tell from my own one,
31:48
a lot of people that hear,
31:49
you guys probably agree with this too,
31:50
is that a lot of times a bit that scoochy career path
31:53
as you hear about, right?
31:54
It's like the stock market.
31:55
Fairies.
31:56
Fairies.
31:57
Fairies.
31:58
Yeah.
31:59
I would love to step into some more personal conversations
32:02
if that's okay.
32:03
Yeah, of course.
32:04
So you became a mum three and a half years ago.
32:06
How's the way that you manage your own personal finances changed?
32:09
Is there anything you wish you'd done earlier
32:12
or differently before you had a kid?
32:13
And yeah, just curious to know how you are surviving
32:17
in the current environment with the expenses of childcare
32:20
and everything that comes along with looking after a tiny human?
32:23
Yeah, definitely.
32:24
I'm actually really passionate about this topic
32:26
because having personally gone through it
32:28
as a self-employed mum,
32:30
so having to step down for almost a year or so
32:34
to support my husband and time who was writing his book
32:36
during the pandemic.
32:38
So we had this kid coming
32:39
and then his book deal was just imminent
32:41
with Penguin Random House at the time,
32:43
which is a really big publisher.
32:44
And we definitely want to take it.
32:46
But at the point that obviously everything shut down,
32:49
we're both having speaking businesses, training businesses,
32:52
and during the pandemic,
32:53
and none of that was coming in.
32:54
So it was a very scary time.
32:56
And I remember looking into the sedatory maternity pay
32:59
that was offered by the government.
33:01
If you are not able to work,
33:03
then you can actually claim that,
33:04
which is, I think about 6,000 pounds for the year,
33:07
you can correct me if I'm wrong
33:08
but I haven't looked into this for a while.
33:10
And I'm just thinking for any self-employed moms
33:12
out there who are not able to work for that period
33:14
taking after their kid,
33:16
how are they able to survive on 6,000 pounds
33:18
for the year?
33:19
6 or 60.
33:20
6,000 or so.
33:21
Did you just forget his hero?
33:24
It was really kind of mind-boggling.
33:27
And I remember speaking to my accountant this time,
33:30
Raint is like, double that.
33:32
Yeah.
33:33
It's like, wow.
33:34
Sorry, I'm just going to give me a minute.
33:37
Yeah.
33:38
So for me, I was just kind of speaking to my accountant
33:40
at the time, I was thinking,
33:41
he's like, well, if you don't work,
33:42
then you can take this pay if you want to.
33:44
And essentially look after your kid
33:46
for that maternity period.
33:48
But if you take any kind of job coming in
33:50
that may be a speaking client
33:51
or maybe kind of virtual workshops you're running,
33:53
then you can't claim that.
33:55
But I actually opted for the latter
33:56
because I will actually be able to survive
33:58
and raise my kid during that year.
34:00
Even though I would maybe breastfeed her,
34:02
well, I'm actually trying to do a virtual training session
34:05
during the pandemic
34:06
or do you any kind of workshops with my clients?
34:09
At the same time, I actually make a living
34:11
rather than actually living off of very low
34:13
statutory pay, basically.
34:15
Was that part of the decision to go out on your own as well?
34:18
To have that fixability for we know
34:20
if you did want to have children?
34:22
So I didn't realize the flexibility,
34:24
part of it until later at had her.
34:26
And now looking back,
34:27
I was actually just speaking with some moms
34:29
at the scoop of pick updates,
34:31
the gates, and then they were just saying
34:33
how impossible it was to actually go
34:35
and pick up their kid at this time
34:37
because obviously if you're working the full-time job
34:39
to leave at that midday,
34:41
you have to do some kind of sharing
34:43
a partner of some sort like that,
34:45
whereas for me, now knowing that,
34:47
having that flexibility to work around her,
34:49
even though I'm still working longer hours,
34:51
but at least I'm working around her schedule,
34:53
to be able to actually see her more often,
34:55
I think that makes a big difference to me.
34:57
And have you changed the way that you invest
34:59
or the way that you save or spend money
35:02
or think about money in general
35:04
like you've had such a transition
35:05
from the finance industry
35:07
into social media and to big companies like Google
35:10
and I mean, now that you've had a kid
35:13
and you're working for yourself,
35:15
where do you think you've landed
35:17
just with your general thoughts
35:19
towards how you spend, make, invest?
35:21
Has it shifted a lot?
35:23
I think I come back to this idea of enough,
35:26
like what is enough for me?
35:28
And that really came from an inspiration
35:30
from this book called The Psychology of Money
35:32
by Morgan Housel.
35:33
I was like, she's going to say
35:34
The Psychology of Money.
35:36
Oh god, you can come back again.
35:39
Yeah.
35:40
Oh, you guys, I love you guys.
35:42
I just freaked her out before the point.
35:44
Just clearly.
35:45
I eventually just finished reading it.
35:47
And it probably would be one of my top three books
35:49
that I've ever read.
35:50
Yeah, so with regards to the enough,
35:52
actually knowing what's enough for you
35:54
to live on, to have a happy life,
35:56
have a rich life of your version of it.
35:58
So for me, you know, really,
35:59
it's spend time with those I love,
36:01
see my parents more often by traveling to them in the States
36:04
and going on different experiences
36:06
with my husband, with my kid.
36:08
And they able to create a business
36:10
that I love doing every single day,
36:12
waking up excited,
36:13
like that's enough for me.
36:15
And I think that really shifted
36:17
ever since I had her
36:18
because the kind of priorities
36:20
and what I do is different now.
36:22
So her, she's always going to be my first priority
36:25
above anything else.
36:26
But at the same time,
36:27
I also have my ambitions and my dreams
36:29
I want to continue to build.
36:31
And really thinking around that
36:33
and having enough finances to support that
36:35
and to make that happen,
36:37
that should be enough for me.
36:38
But again, that's different for everyone else.
36:40
And I think everyone should think about
36:41
what their version of enough is
36:43
and also what their version of their rich life is.
36:46
It doesn't have to be money,
36:47
but money can give you the freedom
36:49
to choose on what you want to do.
36:50
But at the same time,
36:51
it's how much of that is enough for you
36:53
in order to live that life.
36:54
Gosh, I feel like I've been to a Tony Robbins.
36:57
I feel so inspired.
36:59
I'm sorry.
37:00
I almost don't want to talk.
37:01
I don't want to ruin the...
37:02
I'm like, I have enough.
37:03
I have enough.
37:04
I have my drunk moments.
37:05
I know.
37:06
That was a mic drop moment.
37:08
Oh, Larry, I feel like...
37:09
Oh, you're going too far.
37:10
Yes.
37:11
So long.
37:12
Whether it's so much.
37:13
Career and parenting
37:15
and your own personal relationship with money.
37:17
Honestly, you are a real inspiration.
37:19
And I feel like there's so many people
37:21
that will have listened to this podcast episode
37:23
and really started to think about
37:25
their own relationship with money
37:27
and career and family
37:29
and what success looks like.
37:31
So thank you for sharing all of your experiences
37:34
and...
37:35
Yes, thank you so much.
37:36
Being so open about, yeah,
37:37
what you do and what's been successful for you.
37:39
So, yeah, thank you for coming on
37:41
and it was a real pleasure to speak to you.
37:43
Oh, thank you so much for having me, guys.
37:44
It's been a great conversation.
37:46
Thank you so much for listening to Raising the Curve.
37:49
These conversations are designed to teach you
37:51
everything that you need to know to be better with your money.
37:53
From saving, to investing,
37:55
to talking to your friends about your salaries.
37:57
And if you liked what you heard, we would love it.
38:00
If you could hit the subscribe button, please.
38:02
Please press better yet.
38:03
Leave a review.
38:04
It'll only taste five seconds.
38:05
And it would really make our week.
38:06
Oh, yeah.
38:07
Our month.
38:08
Okay.
38:09
Lots of love.
38:10
See you soon.
38:11
Bye.