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Modern medicine responds to Incels | HBR Talk 264 · Honey Badger Radio

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And hello and welcome to HBr Talk two sixty four. Modern Medicine responds to
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in Cells. I'm your host Hannah Wallen here with in Cell Project creator Nomicates,
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Nonsense Annihilator Lauren Brooks and Personification of Perceptivity Mike Stevenson to get a look
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at a new article on a new syndrome in psychological medicine in cell complex.
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But before we get to that, we gotta do what we gotta do.
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to feed the Badger dot com and the dropdown menu at the top of the
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page. And with that, we're going to move on. When I saw
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this article, initially my heart dropped. I thought, you know, well,
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there you go. They're going to treat being sad about being lonely and
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being angry about being bullied as forms of mental illness and indications of violence.
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Now having looked through the article, though it's short, there's clearly more to
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it than that, and this approach isn't just another example of black and white
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thinking we usually see from the establishment. Although I've seen this writer's name before
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and just can't place it um and it's I don't have a good feeling of
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like, did I like this this person's writing before. I just can't remember
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what we've read from this writer before. But uh, it's I think there's
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a lot more than she's written about here, So any thoughts on this before
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we dive into it. Um, First of all, good to be back
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with you guys, as always good to have you, yeah, especially on
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this topic. So so this this piece, Um, I read it.
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It's you're right, it's not the typical stigmatizing black and white demonizing album we
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tend to get from the establishment, which is because it's based on a study
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from someone named William Costello who was at um Brunella University I think at the
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time that is now studying with David Buss Labs in Austin evolutionary psychology. He's
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a good friend of mine. I had him on the podcast way back when,
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days of yore before he did any of this great work, and it
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actually sort of helped him, you know, promoted him a lot in the
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cell community, the insall sphere before he got this study started. So,
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this study, which had two hundred and seventy two insull respondents, is one
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of the very few studies done in good faith I would say about this community,
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where you know, it employed actual surveys of in cells. He actually
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spoke to them. It wasn't just like wordscraping and nonsense like the other ones
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do. So that's good. Yeah, he's definitely in good faith. And
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he's currently working on his second study, which I think was funded by the
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Home Office in the UK, which goes a little bit more in depth than
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to in cells, like mate preferences and all kinds of other interesting things.
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So they're they're doing real honest work. And this study was definitely real and
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definitely honest, and he basically just studied in cell self perception there, you
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know, victimhood. There's a scale of like victimhood compared to the you know,
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control population. And it was a good study, you know, and
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it found rates of depression, rates of autism, spectrum disorder, rates of
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you know, inferiority, and things like that, and also disproved and debunked
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a lot of commonly held beliefs about in cells like that their right wing,
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etc. I think he found that it was pretty evenly split politically and they
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weren't very political. So lots of great stuff. Yeah, it's really good
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work. His studies and another woman named Sophia Muscalenko that I was involved with,
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have done good work. Well. One thing this study did not say
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was in cell syndrome. That term is not doesn't come from the author.
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It comes from the author of this piece, I guess, not the author
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of the study. I have never heard William Costello or anyone else in academia
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refer to such a thing, and the fact that you know, I think
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this also gets a few things wrong too, when it talks about how many
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of them have tried mental health care and whether they found it effective or not.
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I think the idea for what William Costello is doing is basically one of
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his ideas, I believe, is that in mental health care, people aren't
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trained. They're not really informed about what insults are and how much this can
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affect people, and maybe certain tendencies that are important for them to know about
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evolutionary psychology, so they can maybe discuss these things with potential clients that they
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have. It's more about like educating therapists possibly that if they have a client
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that comes in and says, I have all these other issues, I'm also
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an in cell, they'll know what that means. It's not about saying all
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in cells are mentally ill and that's a cause of mental illness. Absolutely not.
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So that's that was the first That was the first problem I had when
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I saw the article, I was like, oh, gosh, this is
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really going to be awful. And then I read it and I'm like,
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this is this is kind of a makes bag. Um. Yeah, So
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like the first thing, she gives some key takeaways and she gives a definition
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for uh in cell complex, and it's it kind of interested me that first
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bullet point, which we can see I think on the screen. Here,
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there we go. I make it a little more visible, says in cell
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complex is a condition where people are involuntarily celibate, celibate and lack the ability
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to form deep intimate sexual relations, which results in loneliness, depression, and
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possibly violent thoughts. Um. So they've defined this now it granted it didn't
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come from the research, um, but clearly there is a goal here.
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And I have a theory on why that happened because I think this at me,
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recognizing the name kind of makes me wonder if you know, we're looking
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at someone going at this research from a feminist perspective, because feminists have specifically
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attacked the in cell community as um misogynistic as finally think you know, they
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think that the misogyny, the misogyny is the root of like this problem as
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the they see it as like person is misogynistic, therefore their in cell that
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makes them mentally ill. Yeah kind of, so how're going backwards? Yeah,
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yeah, And I think unfortunately in this society, it's almost impossible anywhere
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you look to not find some kind of feminist influence behind you know, their
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their agenda. So yeah, yeah, so that that's the tough thing.
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So it's it's unless, yeah, unless you're looking in a specifically like an
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outlet that's like considered contrarian or something like that. Yeah, it's it's a
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lot like swimming in a lake that's that's full of glass and it's floating in
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the water and you, you know, you're trying to deal with the water,
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but you have all this glass that you're trying to avoid, and I
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think, you know, it kind of gets into everything. It grinds into
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everything, It cuts into everything, and it does a lot of damage.
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Because this is a phenomenon within our society that there are some people who are
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more socially adapt and there are some people who are less socially adeptum. There
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are some people who are so lacking in aptitude for ability to connect with other
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people that it creates, you know, pain and suffering for them and denies
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them the normal um experience, the healthy, normal experience of social connection,
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and that that isn't something that you can just look at and say, well,
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shame on them for lacking, you know, something like be like saying
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shame on someone in a wheelchair for lacking the ability to walk, Like it's
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a normal part of human development. That if something happens that prevents that part
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of human development from occurring an individual, that's a handicap. Yeah, I'd
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love to hear what they mean by lack the ability to form deep intimate and
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sexual relations, because that's that's the wording that's typically used in descriptions of actual
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syndromes in the DSM and what have you. Whereas being an in cells.
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As far as I know, as far as anyone I know knows, is
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it's a circumstance. Yes, it's a reason. They could perfectly have the
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ability to form deep internet intimate and sexual relations, but for whatever reason they
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haven't. Those could be external reasons, they could be just random reasons that
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it just has happened. Yeah, And I wonder if that's if that's getting
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pulled into this definition. I think it's implied that I think it's implied,
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and I think it's um. I think it's important to be aware of a
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lot of the you know, characterological tendencies in the community that might in fact
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make it more difficult to form social bonds, especially intimate social bonds, which
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can be any number of things. They can be upbringing, they can be
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you know, being on the spectrum is a big one, any number of
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things, a lot of things. These things often are factors. They're not
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They're not the defining factors of what being an insull is. That is a
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circumstance. This does kind of assume that all insults have the mindset and that
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therefore freeding the mindset would treat the insell. So that's not true. But
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you know, I think it's still I don't think it's a it's a bad
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faith to kind of try to look at it that way, or you know,
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yeah, I think um. In terms of UM, In terms of
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the psychology the profession of psychological treatment, you have like two groups of people.
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You have people who go into it with sort of a profiteering attitude and
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you have people that go into it with more of a an altruistic motive.
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And the profiteering motive gets divided, you know, subdivided between people who are
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profiteering in terms of money, and I think people who have a savior complex
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that that that don't recognize it, and you get, you know, the
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if you have if you mix feminism with the savior complex, then you get
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this attitude of um looking down on insults from on high. And yeah,
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I've seen that in a few people, in a few discussions on Twitter where
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somebody is like, well, we could help these people if we could just
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get them to act now, yeah, right right, or just do that.
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Yeah. I also really interestingly, had I think I mentioned it last
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time I was here, had an install on the show who is a psychotherapist
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from the UK, and he was really interesting because he just talked about how
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difficult it is for therapists to even have that conversation with someone like in their
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chair if the person says, well, I'm ugly or I'm not you know,
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I'm I'm mundane, I'm this on that and that's why I can't find
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a relationship. And he's like, because of the way therapists are, it's
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really hard for them to ever just say like, yeah, that might possibly
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be true. It makes them feel bad. So yeah, well, and
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you also have like you know, and I'm I'm not in I'm not a
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therapist, but I did go a wage into studying it with the intention and
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one of the things that I always had as a goal when I when I
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have tried to help people around me, is all right. So that's a
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that's a result I went where somebody says, you know, I can't I
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can't get into a relationship because I'm ugly. The result is they feel they
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can't get into a relationship because they're they're ugly, So you have to start
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looking at the cause and included in that cause maybe that they are not conventionally
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attractive. That's a real thing. It happens to people. It's it's not
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like I could say right now, I am not conventionally attractive. And it
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gets pointed out to me when I do um face video like video that shows
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my face because people can see my teeth, and my teeth are a mess
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right now, like they they are really a mess. There's no fixing that
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without serious, expensive dental care. And if somebody doesn't like what I say,
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they call my teeth ugly, and it's like I've I'm kind of stoic
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about that because I already know that and it doesn't bother me, and it's
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just they're stating a fact. And I don't care if they find me attractive
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or not, because that's not the goal of the video, right. But
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if I was trying to get into a relationship, if I was not a
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fifty year old grandma who didn't have to do all that, I was trying
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to date right now and the response of all the people around me was get
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away from me, your teeth or ugly, there'd be a totally different response
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there, and it would affect my self esteem probably, And that's something that
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like you go through as a as a person, try to help another individual
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deal with pain and suffering that they're trying to um work their way through and
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you know, not be despondent and not be suicidal or if they're experiencing,
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you know, any kind of violent ideation, which does happen with people that
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are going through a rough time. And that's it's not limited to people who
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are involuntarily celibate, people who are bullying victims, people who have experienced any
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kind of trauma go through that. Like you know, I when I was
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ten, we were in a car acident my mother, my grandmother and me
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and my mom almost died in that accident, and I saw her dying and
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it was very traumatic. It was I was in my forties before I could
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talk about it without having a panic attack, and I'm like, you guys
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all know me. I'm not the type that you expect to have a panic
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attack. I would get out of breath and be unable to talk. And
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that. When I was in my teens, I had violent ideation around drunk
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driving and that was a really rough experience because I knew people that were just
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perfectly okay with having a couple of beers and then getting behind the wheel of
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a car, and somebody that did that almost killed my mother right in front
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of me, and I had to work through that. Like that was part
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of the reason why I went into anger management, and it wasn't. I
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didn't go to an anger management specialist. I went to a psychologist for teenagers,
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and uh that was That was a really an interesting experience because the first
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thing that we went through was yes, your anger is legitimate, your response
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is not, and it was. He was blunt. He was not from
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the United States. He was from Korea, and so his English was very
16:15
good, but my ability to understand his accent sucked and we had to communicate
16:22
in shorter sentences and very clear points. Y to speak to me like my
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english was bad and we didn't you know, So that like that whole situation.
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Basically, when I look at this and this attempt at recognizing, um,
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what insults are going through and trying to figure out, you know,
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well, what do we do about this to help them? And what do
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we do about this in situations where somebody might actually become a threat which I
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think that's more than way overblown in media. Um that specially, it's almost
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non existent, to be honest, it is almost non existent. It's almost
17:06
statistically negligible compared to any other population. And most of them are almost all
17:12
of them are. I know all of those cases by heart, and almost
17:15
all of them can be completely taken apart. So that threat is that's another
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headline. It's a headline seller. It's a profit maker. It allows nonprofits
17:26
and governmental NGOs to you know, get in and sell some trainings and give
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some talks. And I've done some of those, you know, So I'm
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not saying that that's always um, you know, nefarious or always completely cynically
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done. But for the most part, that's what that's about. In cells.
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Really, you know, if you it just doesn't doesn't make sense to
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look at them that way. It's to any of this stuff really overpredicts those
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kind of attacks. There's attacks happen so much and they're not They don't really
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happen so much at all periods to disagree. But you know, even given
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the ones that do, like the motives are just we know nothing about it,
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about any of that insult has nothing to do with it. Well,
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and it's looking at it as as a one um, one aspect, one
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cause phenomenon, univariate issue is ridiculous because when you look into the lives of
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the people involved, you discover that, hey, you know, there's there's
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a whole ton of crap going on here um and all of it is relevant
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and not just this one thing, but right, and I like, the
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biggest worry I would have, if you know, if I was actually a
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therapist and I was somebody came to me and they said, I have these
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things going on and I'm also an in cell, is that if they're experiencing
18:52
depression, that experience is going to make it worse and that they might be
18:57
a suicide risk, because I know social isolation is one of the big contributing
19:03
factors to suicide. Yeah, of course it is. Like you know,
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when I've had counselors asking me like, well, what do you think how
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should we treat insuls, It's like, don't look at that. This whole
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thing insult complex is wrong and it's just like everything else in this piece,
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it's backwards. Like if they're an insell, they're an insell. It doesn't
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mean they have any kind of mental health issues or whatever mental health issues they
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have. You treat those with the awareness that one of their main issues is
19:29
this loneliness and inability to find a relationship, and you can start to look
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at causes for that or alternatives for that. If they really think it's about
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their appearance or maybe where they live or something like that and there's nothing that
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behaviorally can help, then like the insult I had on my show that was
19:45
a therapist, He's like, I just learn to accept that about myself and
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to find other meaning in my life. That's very difficult for people to do,
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obviously, but that, yeah, has to be something you're able to
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consider either way. Pathologizing this is not like I just wanted to say,
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Like, you know, I think one of the biggest bullies is ourselves,
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and I think that's what's happening with a good percentage of these quote unquote in
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cells. I think they bully themselves into demeaning themselves, into thinking that they're
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lesser than and they can't get out of that own their own mindset, their
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own way of thinking. Yeah, and it's it's it's you know, we
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talk about other bullies, right other people are bullying me. Well, no,
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I think a lot of times we've just really demean ourselves and it's unhealthy
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and it you got to start at the beginning, and the beginning is with
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you. You know, it's how do you look at life? You know,
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how you see yourself? And if you're looking at yourself in a negative
21:03
light, if you think that everything is just going to be all you know,
21:07
it's not going to go your way. If you're just have this pessimistic
21:11
light or outlook about life, then you're going to attract that negativity. And
21:21
yeah, like I think that's undeniably true, you know, And a lot
21:25
of people, a lot of in cells feel like they're being gas lit when
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people say that they're like, well, we're just saying how it is,
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and you know, you're telling me that, like my attitude is going to
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fix my face, et cetera, et cetera. Like so I can respect
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that too, And I understand why the forums are there. People are very
21:42
critical of the forums because there's so much negative self talk and if they're very
21:48
fatalistic, like the Black Pill and everything. But like truth is, I
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think the forums they exist. Obviously, I don't believe in censorship. I
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have seen instances where the forums have provided like friendships for people that have a
22:00
really hard time with those and like a place to kind of vent and stuff
22:03
that they've been helpful in a way, and a lot of it is just
22:07
joking and kind of camaraderie. But you know that being said that outlook is
22:11
very unhealthy and it does it. Also. I've had many people who said
22:15
that, like it's made them more depressed and stuff, because you know,
22:18
if you're like you said, if you're fixating on all like what you believe
22:23
are your worst teachers and how you're doomed and you lost the genetic lottery and
22:27
stuff like, that's not it's not going to help things. Yeah, I
22:33
you know. I went to school with a kid who had muscular dystrophe passed
22:37
away when he was thirteen years old, and he was by the time I
22:42
met him, he was already in a wheelchair. Um, he had to
22:47
have an electric wheelchair. He couldn't do much of anything with his body like
22:52
he had. It was. It was a neat device for the time,
22:55
like I met him in nineteen eighty three, eighty two, somewhere in there,
23:00
and so it was. It was a normal looking wheelchair with a motor
23:06
and a battery and a joystick like you would have on a video game with
23:11
a ball for him to hold onto at the top of the joystick, because
23:15
it's hard to just grip something if your muscles don't work. Muscular dystrophe takes
23:19
away the function of the muscles in the body over time, and like it
23:29
eventually takes away the function of the heart and you eventually pass away from it.
23:36
But I never saw this kid look at life in terms of what he
23:41
couldn't do, and it changed everything about how I looked at life. Like
23:48
I don't know if if Doug ever understood the gift that he was to everybody
23:55
who knew him, but it makes a total difference in the way that you
24:03
look at what you can or can't do in your life. We in recess
24:08
and gym class and things like that, we did everything we could to include
24:15
Doug and everything that we could. So for instance, when we played dodgeball,
24:22
like we had rules for you know, everybody, and then we had
24:27
rules for how can Doug participate. You know, nobody else is carrying around
24:32
a big object that if you hit that object, they're out. So hitting
24:34
his wheelchair means nothing. He's not out from that and you know, like
24:40
it's not part of his body and he doesn't get a choice in whether it's
24:44
attached to him or not. So like, but if he bats it,
24:48
that's his only way of hitting something. So if he bats it with a
24:52
wheelchair and it hits you, you're out. And that was how he could
24:56
get people out. And he was good enough at control that wheelchair that he
25:00
was not usually the first person out, He wasn't usually the last person out.
25:06
He was usually right in the middle of the bunch, right And another
25:08
Yeah, I like I like that it's not only like making the you know,
25:15
the quote unquote handicap for him, where it was easier for him to
25:17
do something. It was also making something like more difficult. You know,
25:21
that whole entity wasn't Yeah, it didn't count, So there's some balance there,
25:26
and he still had to aim to hit people, you know, he
25:27
had to, like there was some serious brain work in using that wheelchair as
25:33
a bat to hit that ball to hit you and turning it around so that
25:38
and of course nobody was going to bean him because muscle flacidity from muscular dystrophe
25:45
would make him bruise a lot easier. And you know, like so we
25:48
had like give and take with that, right, But that was something that
25:52
we worked out as a group together because his whole outlook was all right,
25:59
everybody's doing this, what do we need to do to make it so I
26:03
can participate? And I think, Um, we're in a situation where our
26:07
whole society does the exact polar opposite to in cells. Yes, and and
26:14
it's it's almost like we're telling in cells, well, yeah, you have
26:19
some aspect of your life is socially crippling you. And whether it's appearance,
26:25
whether it's autism, whether it's experience, whether it's where you live, or
26:30
you the only gay man in your community. Because the community only has five
26:33
hundred people in it. Um, Like I met I met somebody not too
26:38
long ago on Twitter that that had been the reason he was an in cell.
26:41
He was living in a very very small community and he was the only
26:47
gay man in his community and the next community was miles away. Yeah,
26:52
yep, that's kind of like the guy I had on the show too.
26:56
He wasn't willing to move into more urban area and like, instead of looking
27:02
at this, all right, so this is in the way of your social
27:04
interaction with other people, or this is in the way of forming the types
27:08
of relationships that you want to form. How do we how do we maneuver
27:12
around that? How do we eliminate it? How do we climb over it?
27:15
How do we you know, give you the wheelchair for your legs that
27:19
aren't working? Socially and we're not there. Society is like looking at these
27:26
people and how shame on you for not having working legs? What's wrong with
27:30
you? How dare you be different from other people? You must be violent?
27:33
And I guess that's why, Like the next two bullet points in this
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article, in cell complex is not yet recognized as a psychological condition. I
27:41
read that, and I'm like I wanted to read. I wanted to scream,
27:45
you know, no shit, sure luck I recognized as a psychological condition,
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although more cases fitting the description of in cell complex are emerging. Then
27:53
then it goes on, well there is no specific proven treatment. Many types
27:57
of therapies, including existential therapy and narrative therapy, could prove effective at aiding
28:03
patients exhibiting this complex. So like, well, this isn't a real mental
28:08
health condition, but here's how we're going to treat it, right with like
28:12
these very esotaic, like you know, hardly practiced kind of mumbo jumbo treatments
28:18
that are Yeah, And all I can think of is, like, can
28:25
can we maybe start by looking at cause and effect before we go into all
28:33
of this mumbo jumbo and blaming the individual. No, that's not possible.
28:40
That's not possible. We've got men to blame, Hannah, Yeah, that's
28:45
that's true. So now the writer is going to give a little history.
28:49
The term in cell was first coined to describe a group of people from all
28:52
genders. Um, which I love that because I first started hearing the term
29:02
in cell, the concept of seventy two genders was not a mainstream discussion at
29:08
all. It was a tumbler thing, but people from all genders who struggled
29:15
to form intimate and sexual relationships despite their desire for them over time. The
29:19
in cell community which exists almost exclusively online, which I want to take issue
29:27
with that wording too. It exists almost exclusive great from like every presentation I've
29:33
ever given and my podcast, so I'm not going to quibble too much with
29:37
it um As a community. It does exist almost entirely online, only discussed
29:44
online. They only talk to other in cells online. They don't like identify.
29:48
Yeah, they don't meet up. They probably should, but they don't
29:52
almost people in their lives that they know that they're in cells a lot of
29:55
the time. So that's kind of what I meant by that, and maybe
29:57
within if that's what they meant by that, because when I see that and
30:03
they say the same thing about us, and they said the same thing about
30:07
us for years, men's rights activists US and our community. We have a
30:17
complex community. It's rather large, and I would actually say it's more becoming
30:22
more of a population demographic than a community. At this point when you have
30:27
you have more than a quarter of a million subscribers to the men's rights subreddit
30:33
that that looks a lot like a population rather than just a community. And
30:40
um, I mean that's that's a lot of people and guns and meetups and
30:45
stuff, right right, And we have but we've been talked about as if
30:49
we only exist online. And the way that they use that phrase, when
30:56
feminists use that phrase about us, the way they use that phrasing is it
31:00
seems intended to indicate that we are like men's rights activists online and something else
31:07
in our real lives, or that we're not real people. Um and like
31:12
that. So that's why I like, I want to take issue with this
31:15
for a minute. I don't like seeing feminists or writers that are um disparaging
31:22
to the in cell population, because that's a pretty big population too. UM
31:30
like using it. I can understand pointing out, though, that most of
31:33
their activity as a community is online. Yeah, I always I thought it
31:40
was what you're breaking up. Hang on a second, and there's a lot
31:48
of background noise is better now, Yeah, that's better? Okay, Sorry
31:53
about that. Um yeah, no, I thought it was important to point
31:56
out initially just because one of the iss that they have is they have so
32:00
much like shame often about being in cells that they they don't or can't talk
32:07
about this very important part of their life and their identity and their struggles with
32:12
anybody they know because they feel they'll be judged for it. So that's why
32:15
they usually just kind of communicate online and have these online spaces where they talk
32:21
about this stuff. Yeah, that makes sense. That that does make sense.
32:25
And I think the community is more made up of people who have who've
32:31
suffered because of it and specifically have a need to discuss it with other people
32:38
and have a need for some sort of connection that that revolves around discussing it
32:44
or recognizing the problem trying to solve, you know, like I have this
32:49
hurdle between me and other people or whatever. Where I think if you look
32:54
at the male population of the world, like worldwide, would I would put
33:01
money on the idea that men who are involuntarily celibate far outnumber men who are
33:08
not. Because of the way we've learned about women being choosy. I think
33:15
women who are involuntarily celibate might actually young, especially younger women who are of
33:22
dating age, might actually outnumber those who are not as well, because a
33:27
lot of times people will not connect with each other just based on being told
33:34
not not superfluous things, but surface things that should be their standards and not
33:43
things that people actually connect over. And so this this the phenomena that we
33:49
see is the people who are recognizing that lack of connection can be a problem
33:53
for a person and wanting to talk about it. I think underneath that there's
33:59
anburg of people who are accustomed to a lack of connection that aren't talking about
34:06
it. Yeah, it's it's really if I could speak from like a personal
34:13
standpoint, like, it's it's hard when you feel like you have nobody to
34:16
talk to, right because everybody, like your family, the people that you
34:22
know who aren't you know, the peripheral people around you, will say,
34:27
oh, we'll go talk to a therapist, and it's like there's a whole
34:32
other layer of um, I don't want to say worthlessness, but it's feeling
34:44
like a burden. Well, I mean, of course there's feeling like you're
34:49
a burden, but like if I have to if the only person that I
34:55
can go talk to about my life is a therapist that I have to pay
35:00
for, then it's like I have to pay someone to give a fuck about
35:05
my life. Yeah, yeah, what I mean and I want to talk
35:08
to the therapist, Like really, it's a moody. You have a specific
35:13
issue that you understand, is like you know, trauma or some kind of
35:17
condition that you understand, Like, okay, you know, um, this
35:21
is a complex thing and maybe I want professional help with it. Just the
35:23
idea of like needing to pay somebody because you've got regular human struggles in your
35:29
life is not it's very depressing. Well I mean it's it's that, yes,
35:36
But the idea, the entire idea that there's nobody else that you can
35:40
talk to or go to in your life. Yeah right, yeah, that's
35:45
horrible. That is something that would be very depressing, um and painful.
35:52
Yeah. Yeah, and I think it would feel like being being told,
35:58
well, if nobody will talk to you, go pay somebody to talk to
36:00
you. If nobody will listen to you, go pay somebody to listen to
36:02
you, by somebody who could just maybe listen. Yeah. And it's different
36:09
from like somebody saying, gosh, you know, what you're going through is
36:14
actually complicated enough that you know, maybe you need to help analyzing it professionally
36:20
to figure out what to do and how to improve your situation. This is
36:24
just why I need somebody to talk to about this or somebody to listen to
36:29
me, and like we'll go pay somebody m And like, honestly, that
36:32
almost makes therapy seem like prostitution. It's just can say the same thing in
36:37
cults are told all the time by people online saying like, oh, they
36:42
can't get late just you know, go see a sex worker or something,
36:45
and it's like they don't want to have to pay for intimacy. And in
36:50
the same way, you know a lot of people who are just lonely or
36:53
I can totally relate to this experience too, like I don't necessarily want has
37:00
to pay someone to just listen to me. It doesn't feel right. Yeah,
37:04
that's it kind of defeats the purpose, right because there's there's this longing
37:09
of wanting there to be someone who knows your situations so intimately so that you
37:16
don't have to go through every single detail, right because stories can they have
37:24
to be unraveled for people to really get the full nuance of where someone is
37:30
in a certain situation in their life, right, Yeah, they need to
37:35
know who the people are that you're talking about. That is, they need
37:37
to know you exactly, and you can't just pay someone to do that.
37:45
Money doesn't buy that kind of experience. So to feel like your last resort
37:52
is to pay a therapist to talk to you, And again, you would
37:57
have to have the money and the time to spend with someone so that they
38:01
could understand all of that, unless you happen upon a great therapist who can,
38:08
you know, be in tune with you enough to understand the things that
38:14
you're saying. But even still, it just doesn't hit the mark. And
38:19
I think a really responsible ethical therapist would say sorry about that. Like I'm
38:27
actually because I was in therapy for a few years with someone really good and
38:31
when I would just talk about kind of life things, a lot of the
38:35
times they would say, okay, well, I'm not just here to kind
38:37
of like listen to that as a friend, Like we have to have like
38:39
an objective and be working toward it. And it was like dealing with a
38:44
trauma. So you know, that's not really the role of a therapist be
38:47
your friend like that. No, they and the amount of schooling that you
38:53
get, you know, to go to do that job. It would be
38:58
kind of an insult to have somebody min and I just want to talk about
39:00
life and the for in the seventies. For a while, there was a
39:06
kind of a trend like anybody that had money had a therapist, and there's
39:10
there's um licensed therapy where you do psychological therapy. And then there were people
39:20
that were calling themselves therapists that that was all they did was just listen.
39:22
And I think there were um, I don't know if you've ever if you
39:28
guys are familiar with the old Doctor Demento show, but there were a number
39:30
of songs on that show that were inspired by that trend of the something wrong
39:39
with Me trend, I guess is what I would call it, where you
39:43
know, oh, I'm in therapy, well and actually you're just talking about,
39:47
you know, your daily life with this individual and they're listening, and
39:52
the stereotype of them saying, oh, that's very interesting and how did that
39:55
make you feel? Over and over again, and and then at the end,
40:00
oh, you've helped me a lot, and the therapist has done absolutely
40:01
nothing but listen, right, and like that. I think a lot of
40:07
people today have that image of the therapist. But when you go in with
40:12
a problem like, um, you know, I want to beat people up
40:15
who drive drunk because my mom almost got killed. They're working through all right.
40:22
First of all, let's deal with the fact that you can't take responsibility
40:25
for something that somebody else did, and you can't use that as an excuse
40:30
to punish people who weren't involved in what happened, you know, and things
40:34
like that. They're looking at what can we do to make it so that
40:37
you don't have this overwhelming impulse in your life and you can move on and
40:45
yourself and and that's not that's expensive, and it's it's professional work, it's
40:52
labor, and it's it's it's something, it's a goal that a person has
40:59
in going into that job that if you know, all you do is go
41:01
in and talk about your life experiences and your feelings and you don't actually try
41:07
to solve anything, you're sort of undermining their career too. So when people
41:12
think that people people set people up for failure when they give that advice,
41:16
and then they also are dumping something onto the community of real psychologists that really
41:27
it's it's almost like starting a fight between two other people who didn't have a
41:31
problem with each other until you came along. But yeah, so we we
41:37
are looking at this belief in this article. Now, let's see we are
41:45
at overtime. The in cell community, which exists exclusively online, has become
41:50
overwhelmingly dominated by heterosexual males who struggle with mental health problems and violence and believe
41:55
that women's sex and relationships are all things to them. You had talked about
42:01
some of the things in this article didn't come from the research that she cited.
42:06
I would bet this is part of that. That absolutely did not that's
42:10
not in any of the research, and I from the people that I've met
42:16
and talked to, UM, it's also bullshit just you know, great a
42:22
bullshit like you could you could fertilize a farmer's field with this, but it's
42:25
it's not good for any discussion about in cells. I've not met anyone who
42:30
thinks that women, sex and relationships are all things owed to them. No,
42:36
no, no, no, they absolutely don't feel that way. Uh,
42:39
that's you know, completely just been astroturfed by the media. In cells
42:44
actually want intimacy, They want to be wanted and desired, so they don't
42:46
want like to take anything from any woman in that respect. And also just
42:51
the phrasing like it's been dominated overwhelming me by heterosexual men gives the you know,
42:58
it ascribes them with some bad motives that they've overwhelmed this thing that exists
43:02
for Like, no, it mostly is just heterosexual men just because that's the
43:07
community as it exists, and there's nothing that kind of wording certainly does not
43:14
come from any research, right. And I would say the overwhelming majority of
43:17
the population is either heterosexual or predominantly heterosexual. Um Like, if you look
43:27
at bisexuals, a lot of us have a preference for one sex or the
43:30
other more. Um Like I would say I'm more heterosexual, um, but
43:37
not entirely. And so there's a lot of people who live as heterosexuals.
43:43
Like I'm married to a man, and that's that's not going to change ever.
43:47
Um So, like I'm I'm when when I say till death do us
43:52
part, I mean it, you know. Um. And and so people
43:57
would refer to me as a heterosexual even though like you know, when you
44:02
look at um, people that you're attracted to in movies or you know,
44:07
on on television or models and stuff like that, I'm looking at both sexes.
44:12
Yeah, there's that's not that's not going to change either ever. Um
44:16
So, yeah, there's probably a lot more within the population that are predominantly
44:24
heterosexual or lean more towards heterosexual um even if they're not fully heterosexual. So
44:30
of course it's going to be dominated by heterosexuality. Yeah, and that's that's
44:35
also just the community. Like I've had a couple gay in cells on the
44:37
show or Rights to Me or whatever. Mostly the community feels that like it's
44:43
women's standards, et cetera that creates in seldom, so there's kind of a
44:46
lot of the ones that you know, read the Black Pill and everything,
44:51
Right, that's that's why they think that, you know, gay men and
44:53
women can't be in cells. But that's like that's just one of the sort
44:58
of part of the think of the community. It's not like this nefarious dominated
45:02
by men and now they're violent kind of bullshit. And it's it's not even
45:07
all around thinking because you know what, like you look at social programming that
45:10
we get growing up. Women and girls are told to shop around, right,
45:15
and men and boys are told to earn a relationship. And even though
45:21
that they're they're told to earn a relationship, they're not told that they're owed
45:24
one like that there's some magical you earn this relationship and you get one,
45:29
it's well, you have to keep trying obviously, you know you're you.
45:34
You have to keep working on yourself and you have to keep improving yourself,
45:38
and women and girls are not like it's not exclusively, well, you don't
45:44
have to do that. But to the degree that that men and boys are
45:46
told you have to work on yourself, you know, nobody owes your relationship.
45:51
You have to earn the woman's affection and so on. Like, we
45:57
don't get told that as much. We don't get where near that. That's
46:01
a very good point. You're absolutely right. In society, it's kind of
46:06
the other way around. That's sometimes what these men are reacting to, I
46:09
think is that they are told they have to work for it more where women
46:14
aren't. And and that's what these writers, like the writer of this piece,
46:21
I think is so outrageous that, like, because the writer of this
46:24
piece probably does believe that women shouldn't really have to work for it. Implicitly,
46:30
they're probably not aware of it. It's probably kind of subconscious, but
46:34
they probably do that. But the fact that like any men would believe that
46:37
is is outrageous and offensive. And in fact, they don't even believe that
46:42
so there's that too. Yeah, and it's like, you know, we
46:46
we do get told you have to look pretty, you have to try to
46:50
be feminine, you know, you got to be social and so on,
46:53
you know, be nice to people and stuff. But at the same time,
46:58
you know, we're not told that we have to be prepared to support
47:00
a partner. You know, we're not told that we have to be the
47:04
driver of the romance, you know, bring right? How many? How
47:07
many people advise their daughters to get their boyfriend flowers? Right? Like,
47:13
it's probably becoming a little bit more equitable, I guess today, or egalitarian,
47:19
if that's the word you want to use today. But like the mythos,
47:22
the general um thinking and the stories that everyone's told men are sort of
47:29
fighting for the woman's affections, like that chivalry and everything. Right, So
47:35
when these um, when these writers that write you know, this type of
47:38
article, uh, and and they the people that they sort of base their
47:44
um beliefs on, I guess, the the ideology behind it, the feminist
47:47
ideology behind it, when not all manifest into an article like this, um,
47:53
I think a lot of it is outrage that guys have noticed that into
48:00
terms of romance and the formation of intimate partnerships. Women have it a little
48:05
easier than men. We don't have to do as much work. We're the
48:08
you know, the prize and uh and therefore we can, to a degree
48:15
just if we so choose sit back and let somebody come for us. And
48:21
you have to be in the lower end of attractiveness, you know, like
48:27
where people rate one to ten. You know, you hit have to hit
48:30
five or below before you recognize that. You know, actually some work should
48:35
go into your end of the relationship too, because you're not getting any nobody's
48:42
nobody's chasing you, right, And I think a lot of a lot of
48:46
things that in sell women understand that women who are not in cells don't as
48:52
easily understand come out in those forums as well. Um and I've only talked
48:57
to a couple of gals and very only very briefly, but that was one
49:01
of the points that was driven home. It was like a lot of women
49:06
have it easy. A lot of women, you know, just walk into
49:08
a room and some guy in there somewhere is going to be attracted to them.
49:13
But if you're if you're the woman that that doesn't happen with, you
49:16
start to realize, you know, maybe you have to be nice to people,
49:21
you have to treat them like human beings if you want to get any
49:23
attention from a guy, and maybe you have to be the pursuer, you
49:29
know, and that that's difficult. I think for women who have it easier
49:36
and who have the feminist perspective is a victim complex perspective, right, so
49:42
they they have to make themselves they look at everything through how they are victims
49:46
of it. So as soon as they have it easy in terms of gaining
49:52
the attention of a potential partner, and they have it easy enough that they
49:58
gain attention whether they're looking forward or not, they become victims of that attention,
50:05
Yeah Jesus. And they treat recognizing their ability to get the attention they
50:10
want and to be picky about their partners as an attack on them personally.
50:16
And it's not an attack. It's a recognition that, hey, this is
50:20
one of the things that makes life difficult for an insull But all the things
50:27
called in cells, we could go over the reason that women don't get called
50:30
insults. There's this word fem cell, but it's just a meme that no
50:35
one, no one identifies. Certainly not on their sleeve. Yeah. Women,
50:38
women don't get called these things, for one, because they still have
50:42
the benefit of the old fashioned word, you know, virgin. Yeah,
50:50
it's when a woman is a virgin, it's it's a good thing. It's
50:53
it's it's an attractive thing. Dare I say when a man is a virgin?
50:59
Not so much quite the inverse. In fact, and even though it's
51:06
the same word for both, it wasn't enough when it came to demonizing men
51:09
and any identity we can give them. And so it wasn't enough to mark
51:14
men for being virgins. We had to separate them from from women. And
51:20
when I say we, I mean society like I mean feministic. And so
51:27
men have been attacked with this, with this label, with this, with
51:31
this artifact of identity politics, which on the whole I think never should have
51:37
happened. I've been yelling this since the eight years ago when it first came
51:42
up, like you do not need to adopt this identity. There's there's no
51:46
point in it other than for the people who wish to demonize you and and
51:52
and even even women after no longer being virgins but then becoming involuntarily sell they
52:00
don't have have that word applied to them for the for the same reasons,
52:04
because it's a word that's only applied for demonization. If a woman is not
52:09
not a virgin, but wants to have a sexual relationship but is not in
52:15
one, what do we call them. We don't call them anything, unless
52:19
they happen to have cats and then they called crazy cat ladies, or if
52:22
they drink wine and have nieces or nephews and then we call them wins.
52:28
It's never the actual circumstance itself, that is that is mentioned because because it's
52:35
not considered important. Because men are demonized for not having sexual relationship with women.
52:43
Women are not demonized for not having sexual relationship with men. They're very
52:49
often celebrated if they can play their cards right right, we call them nimes
52:54
nis. Yeah, yes, you know it's it's it's actually something that's changed
52:59
to us small degree in society. Women have never been treated the same as
53:02
men in terms of involuntary celibacy throughout their life or the inability to formal relationship.
53:10
But old maid spenster um, there's there's a few other terms that used
53:17
to apply that while they didn't have the negativity of you know what, you
53:23
would say about a man who got to those ages without um, without a
53:30
relationship that he you know, obviously wanted. Um, you did have sort
53:37
of discouraging ways of describing women when they aged without marriage, without having children
53:45
and so on, and yeah, like spensters. I didn't even know.
53:50
I'm sure it had to do with, you know, spinning wheels or some
53:53
such thing. It's an old term. An old maid, you know,
53:58
is is sort of like what a woman do if she doesn't have a husband
54:00
to support her while she has to get a job. Right, Well,
54:04
a lot of women they're the jobs that they took were housekeeping. So there's
54:07
where old maid comes from. Um, But you didn't have dirty old woman.
54:15
Right. And even when women do go after younger men, they get
54:20
this cool ass term cougar. I know, it's it's it's a predator.
54:24
But at the same time, like it's like the kind of thing you would
54:29
name a car, you know, yeah, like a sports car or something.
54:35
It's it still doesn't carry the connotations of dirty old man. Right.
54:38
And the only other thing that existed historically was confirmed bachelor. And the confirmed
54:46
bachelor was a guy who had rejected relationships with women, and he could be
54:52
gay, and that was back then that was considered to be a bad thing.
54:58
Yeah, that was, but there was still not much stigment to the
55:00
name. It was either kind of code word for gay man or just someone
55:06
who was you know, a happy, happy cad who had lots of girlfriends
55:10
whatever, but was never going to settle down, right, And so you
55:14
didn't really have like women would be advised to stay away from that guy,
55:19
right, but you didn't really have um anything among women that was that there
55:23
wasn't a nickname for women that disparaged them like that, like on that level.
55:30
You know, stay away from this person. She's she's a confirmed bachelor.
55:35
Stay away from this person. She's a dirty old maid, you know,
55:37
and like no, just just old maid. And you know, people
55:40
might try to still set her up with the confirmed bachelor or the dirty old
55:45
man, you know, but they wouldn't they wouldn't look at her like she
55:50
was a threat to children or a danger to the social order or anything like
55:53
that. They just would feel sorry for her for her Yeah, so so
55:59
we go on with this again. She points out. The article points out
56:05
this condition is not officially recognized nor well understood. Risk assessment and psychotherapy are
56:12
potential approaches to reduce the incidence of violence. So this is now going into
56:16
well, we're just going to approach this from the thing that happens the least,
56:20
from the perspective of the thing that happens the least. Yeah, I
56:22
mean, and for something that's not very well understood, you sure are talking
56:27
about it like you understand a little bit, So I mean a little bit
56:32
more than you pretend the average bear knows. And even still I will concede
56:40
you really don't kind of understand what you're talking about here, not even a
56:45
little No goes on in cell complex is a phenomenon where people are involuntarily celibate,
56:52
in which in turn causes feelings of loneliness, depression, negativity. And
56:58
here's where she does it to get off ten times violence, um and and
57:04
again no, no basis for saying that it's a fucking weasel word. Where
57:09
where's times? Yeah? How frequently is oftentimes? Is that like five cases
57:16
out of ten? Is that eight cases out of ten? Is that one
57:20
case in a thousand? What is it per year, per month, per
57:25
eon? Come on somewhere on that whibble scale somewhere. According to a review
57:37
of in cell complex by researchers at Michigan State University. In Cell communities tend
57:42
to blame women for the harm they believe women have done to them, and
57:45
they are siting down here at the bottom. I scrolled down too far because
57:52
I'm a dumbass. Where is it? Oh? Sources? Uh? They
57:55
are citing UM Criminal Justice Research Team working to better understand the in cell community,
58:04
College of Science, Michigan State University, December fourteen, twenty twenty two.
58:08
Thomas JJ is the research and it is at the bottom of the article.
58:14
The article is linked in low bar if anybody wants to go and look
58:16
at that. UM, but is this one of the ones that you were
58:22
UM a participant in NAMA. No, that's not it. And that's I
58:30
mean that the study that they keep referring to with two hundred and seventy two
58:34
participants is worrying Cosello's study. Okay, and that one did that one thing
58:37
Andrew Thomas as I'm assuming, UM, I probably shouldn't assume, but it
58:45
says Thomas JJ. I'm gonna open the research just to be sure, slow
58:54
computer, because there's one JJ. Thomas. No, it's Thomas JJ.
58:58
So it's JJ Thomas Not. Yeah, that's not There definitely only one study
59:06
done serving the population with two hundred and seventy two respondents. So maybe they're
59:10
referring to a study that refers to that. Yeah, actually this is this
59:15
is not even a study. This is a report on a study. Um.
59:17
That's it's the one that I when I opened it up, I'm like,
59:21
this is not a study. Um, but the study was done by
59:25
Brannah Helm. No, that might be another study that refers to that study,
59:32
but that study was collo. Yeah. So you go all the way
59:38
down to the bottom of this um blurb on this article, it says Brenna
59:43
Helm, doctor Ryan Scribbns, doctor Tom Holt, and doctor Steve Chermac worked
59:49
with doctor Richard Frank at Simon Fraser University who developed a custom Witten written web
59:54
crawler that scrapped scraped data from the former are in Cell subreddits. So all
1:00:00
they did was looking at yeah, data scraping, that's what all of them.
1:00:06
That's what I'm telling you. They have been twenty seventeen even but more
1:00:09
so twenty eighteen, there have been probably a dozen studies like this, probably
1:00:15
more if you look at some of the like the smaller ones that we're done
1:00:17
by students about in cells, and only two different researchers so far have actually
1:00:25
pulled the community. All the rest of them have been words scrapes, and
1:00:29
they really want The really dishonest thing about this is they don't tell you that
1:00:34
they can with this web prowler that they're using, they can look for specific
1:00:38
words and phrases and focus on those, hone in on those, and then
1:00:43
talk about them as though it's the majority of discussion, right, and also
1:00:47
as if they're indicative, Like there's been lots of studies like this where they
1:00:52
first of all, they calibrate things in all kinds of crazy ways. They
1:00:54
assume that like quote unquote violent speech sometimes, or they're using a phrase that
1:01:00
they might consider racist Curry Cell, which is an affectionate name and stills us
1:01:07
for each other when they're you know of South Asians ascent, etc. That
1:01:10
that indicates racism, and that talking about rape, even though we're not saying
1:01:15
what the context is, whether it's a joke, whether it's you know,
1:01:20
a story and memory is indicative of some kind of violent impulse, And there's
1:01:23
never been any evidence that any of that stuff is it's just implied. And
1:01:29
that's you know, they come up with these all these assessments of a community
1:01:35
based on an out of context like AI machine learning of a forum where they
1:01:43
you know, they determine the inputs going in and then they tweaked them according
1:01:47
to what would make it look how they want it. It's completely you can
1:01:51
completely manipulate it and good. A good way to describe this, I think
1:01:54
would be if we decided we were going to do this with feminist Twitter,
1:01:59
and of the one of the things that we um decided would be a search
1:02:07
a y keyword you know, in the search will be the hashtag kill all
1:02:09
men? Right? Will we get an even handed look at at the entire
1:02:17
feminist community on Twitter? If if a significant part of the data we got
1:02:23
came from comments left under the hashtag kill all men, right, you'd get
1:02:30
I mean, like these toxicity scores that they're coming up with, and all
1:02:35
these projections would be heinous for feminist Twitter, and lots of probably lots of
1:02:40
like you know, subred edits in general, like even ones that I'm a
1:02:45
member of, like about TV shows and stuff get pretty sometimes that's just the
1:02:49
nature of the Internet. Like, you know, these people these researchers are
1:02:52
so out of touch sometimes with what they're studying. They kind of just like
1:02:55
look at it as if it's an object and they have no connection or human
1:03:00
understanding of like, hey, this is just how people talk online sometimes like
1:03:04
they completely lose that. Well, I kind of wonder if they're doing it.
1:03:07
There's another thing that goes into this, and it seems to me that
1:03:10
it started in the mid eighties and maybe even in the seventies, going back
1:03:15
to the seventies in terms of education. When I was in school, and
1:03:21
I noticed this because of my parents being teachers, right, you had two
1:03:27
different ways to learn something. You learn to understand a thing or you learned
1:03:30
it by rote. And so we learned to describe adverbs and adjectives in a
1:03:38
particular way, like adjectives modify nouns, and then we had this ridiculous long
1:03:45
list of things that adverbs modify, which is everything except nouns. And my
1:03:52
dad when he was teaching this lesson, you know, he would ask about
1:03:55
this and the students would rattle off the two definition and then he would say,
1:04:00
okay, now what does that mean? And nobody would raise their hand
1:04:04
because nobody understood what it meant. They just they just knew they couldn't describe
1:04:10
to you what it meant to modify something. So then he had to go
1:04:14
through and give examples. You know, here's picture a truck in your in
1:04:16
your mind, and they would all picture a truck in their mind, and
1:04:20
then he would say, red truck. I just modified it. That's change.
1:04:26
So an adjective modifies a noun by adding to your image of what that
1:04:31
noun is. You know, Tom is running, picture running running clumsily.
1:04:39
The adverb just modified running. Now he's like half stumbling. Right. So
1:04:43
we go through this lesson and the students now really understand when they're using these
1:04:48
descriptions what they mean. When you go into the sciences and you look at
1:04:54
research, a lot of times they're teaching stuff as you plug this method into
1:05:01
or you you plug this method into your your research module or whatever. You're
1:05:08
gathering data based on that method. You use this arithmetic to um manipulate the
1:05:15
data to get a result, to look at you know, what does this
1:05:17
result mean? And the students don't actually understand what they're doing. What is
1:05:25
this research method actually do? What are you finding? What are you measuring?
1:05:32
How much of the um subject matter. Does this measurement cover? How
1:05:38
applicable is it? And if they're that in that shortcut mode of well,
1:05:44
I have learned this definition, I don't have to understand what it means.
1:05:47
And they apply that in everything they do in education, and they just sort
1:05:53
of skate by. Then when they get a hold of a research thing like
1:05:59
using a web crawler control for comments and then analyzing what it means about the
1:06:05
community on the basis of what they find, they're not going to have what
1:06:11
it takes to sort out I'm actually getting a good picture of this community versus
1:06:16
I just engaged in a significant confirmation bias and then vomited it all over the
1:06:25
research publication community, right, if that makes sense, and I think that
1:06:31
might be what's happening here is absolutely what's happening here. And with a lot
1:06:35
of this stuff, a lot of these publications and a lot of this research,
1:06:40
it is exactly that. Yeah, that's that's what I was kind of
1:06:45
thinking. And it makes sense that this is the one that's so The idea
1:06:48
that the in cell communities blame women came from that confirmation bias. Yep,
1:06:57
fitting it goes on. It says research at Cambridge University has noted a rise
1:07:02
in violent acts in recent years committed by men who involve identify as involuntary celibates.
1:07:09
And that's the one that is in Cells Violence and Mental Disorder a narrative
1:07:15
review of recommendations for best practices and risk assessment and clinical intervention published in BJ
1:07:24
psych Advances. That's also not something that had any new data from that research.
1:07:30
It was just a review of existing literature. Yeah, of course,
1:07:39
so it's basically a lot of it came from that that web Parler research.
1:07:44
H of course. She goes on, however, that is not to say
1:07:48
that everyone within the in cell community is violent. Brennah Helm, a lead
1:07:53
researcher at Michigan State University, says, there are individuals in these communities who
1:07:57
are hurting because or who are hurting and are open to alternative avenues for managing
1:08:01
their frustrations that do not include misogyny or harm to themselves or others. Part
1:08:08
of the struggle and understanding this condition is that the in cell community lacks faith
1:08:13
in research in academia, viewing it as likely to be villainizing instead of helpful,
1:08:17
and understanding the true cause of their feelings and behaviors. I wonder why
1:08:23
they would think that. M right, Okay, I see that. It's
1:08:30
just a couple of paragraphs downs where they get to the actual survey as I
1:08:33
see. Yeah, so yeah, like we just read why they would think
1:08:39
that, so we look at the complex facts and figures that says an online
1:08:43
poll of six hundred and sixty five individuals with in cell complex, again repeating,
1:08:49
this is not an accepted mental health condition. This is something that they
1:08:56
made up. So now they've they've just taken random people online and diagnose them
1:09:01
with it just just nothing. Who dignosed these people? They made up that.
1:09:11
You know, there was no process to diagnose or anything right, and
1:09:15
and the research isn't where it came from. So this person has applied this
1:09:19
term to this research without the you know, asking or getting permission from the
1:09:25
researchers. So just to be clear, it's not the researchers that did this,
1:09:32
but an online poll of six hundred and sixty five individuals within SO complex
1:09:39
conducted by the Cambridge University researchers disclosed that the majority were males between the ages
1:09:45
of eighteen and thirty round sixty eight percent of this group expressed having depression,
1:09:49
seventy four percent said they suffered from anxiety, and forty percent reported they had
1:09:56
autism. And then it goes on and highlights these statistics show that mental illness
1:10:02
has a large effect on this community. None of these verbs are diagnosed,
1:10:14
as far as I have settled, was supposed to trust the science. But
1:10:17
we're told they express having depression, they said they suffered from anxiety and reported
1:10:24
they had autism. I think they have to do that because they're not the
1:10:29
ones that did the diagnosis, and they didn't get their medical records. Yeah,
1:10:32
these are self supports. But not only that, I don't think this
1:10:36
is accurate. I don't think this is accurately reporting these studies at all.
1:10:41
The Cambridge study is not the one that got that. This is completely wrong.
1:10:45
That's not surprising. Yeah, those those percentages I the Cambridge Okay,
1:10:51
I this is totally wrong, totally it's represented. Yeah, but see in
1:10:58
this little highlighted section, she says that the statistics they show that the mental
1:11:03
illness has a large effect on this community. It's gotta be chow. Come
1:11:08
on, that's right now. She doesn't have to prove how she just listened.
1:11:15
She just has to say that this is what it shows clearly. Yeah,
1:11:19
you know what was I thinking? Right? Well, and what really
1:11:24
kind of bugs me about this is, let's let's say, for just a
1:11:28
just a brief moment, if all of this was true. All right,
1:11:30
So, uh, about two thirds of the group um and said they were
1:11:36
depressed, about three quarters said they suffered from anxiety, and about um just
1:11:41
under half reported they had autism. All right, These are not necessarily all
1:11:46
causes autism can be. Like, for instance, UM, if I'm in
1:11:51
a face to face for conversation with somebody and I'm talking about something, like
1:11:56
most people, if they get a bored look on their face, you kind
1:12:00
of notice that they're board. And if they start, um, moving around
1:12:05
fidgeting and doing um kind of I'm not paying attention to you as as carefully
1:12:13
behaviors, most people will notice. I don't. I don't notice that at
1:12:16
all. I have to be told um. And it's been a lot.
1:12:23
It's taken a lot of work for me to start getting a handle on like,
1:12:27
oh, I'm boring, you aren't I? Um And, And that's
1:12:30
part of a spectrum of things that had had me. I got diagnosed this
1:12:36
year. UM. But in any case that can affect your ability to socialize
1:12:45
with people. Of course it does, and autism like this is actually it
1:12:48
frustrates me that they're misrepresenting these studies so much because they come from and they're
1:12:55
good studies. Like one of them where they got that forty percent number I
1:13:00
think was taken by the community themselves in cells dot Co, the site that's
1:13:03
always demonized, the site that all these studies like scrape to Island and stuff,
1:13:09
they actually allowed researchers to take a poll within their community. That's where
1:13:13
they got that high number of responses. And I think they reported that it
1:13:16
was like eighteen percent or something that we're actually diagnosed on the spectrum and then
1:13:20
like another twenty percent suspected at it. So like that is really high and
1:13:25
that's important to know, but it's not instell complex. It's just like important
1:13:31
to be aware of, like this might be an issue with this population,
1:13:34
and it's all the more reason not to demonize them, not to stigmatize them,
1:13:39
not to necessarily say, like you're doing something wrong and you know you're
1:13:44
a misogynist and that's why you can't have relationships like it might be because you
1:13:47
have trouble reading social keys because you're on the spectrum. And right again,
1:13:53
it's it's like calling somebody who has a disorder of the legs that keeps them
1:13:59
from being able to walk a misogynist because they won't go on walks with women.
1:14:05
Oh, you won't go on a walk with me misogynists? Well no,
1:14:09
my legs don't work. Well that's not it. That's you're just a
1:14:12
misogynist. Your legs don't work because you're a misogynist, Like you wouldn't do
1:14:15
that. It's ridiculous. But as soon's you know, as soon as it's
1:14:19
a part of a person's mental development or psychological development, we do. And
1:14:30
it goes on. UM after after stating all that about mental health, which
1:14:35
um the the other two depression and anxiety, those can be contributing factors as
1:14:40
well, but they can also be a result. Like if you're socially isolated
1:14:44
and you're reporting depression and somebody says, well, you're you're socially isolated because
1:14:47
you're depressed. No, could it not be the other way around, right,
1:14:53
right? And could that not become a um an issue that is a
1:14:59
self fuel problem, where not that you are fueling it but that the depression
1:15:03
makes it harder for you to do the things that are required in order to
1:15:08
socialize with other people, and that makes you more depressed because you're more isolated.
1:15:15
Yeah, absolutely went through that myself. Yeah, you go with this
1:15:21
whole COVID thing, you know, and when I was separated from life for
1:15:27
three and a half years, and you know, after a while, you
1:15:30
know, people started to go back to work and life started to get back
1:15:34
to normal and everyone was having their normal family relations. And you know,
1:15:41
even during COVID when people were in lockdown, you know, I had my
1:15:45
coworkers complaining about their wives, you know, the people that they chose to
1:15:50
share their lives with. Ah, I can't stand this right, And I'm
1:15:55
sading there thinking, my god, I wish my man can be here so
1:16:00
that I could complain about the stupid little things that he does. You know.
1:16:05
But yeah, that's that's when people. People do not understand what it's
1:16:14
like until they've been through. I had a taste of the like separation anxiety,
1:16:18
and it was just a taste like we weren't an ocean apart, we
1:16:23
were eighty miles apart, and eighty miles just felt like an ocean. I
1:16:28
can't imagine. That must have been absolute hell um going through COVID with that
1:16:34
because you can't even get on a plane. You know, we could drive
1:16:39
eighty miles when we were eighty miles apart. Maybe not as frequently as we
1:16:42
wanted, but we could do it. And there were some things that happened
1:16:47
during COVID that maybe should help people understand what it's like to be socially isolated
1:16:57
all your life, because a lot of people experienced social isolation for the first
1:17:00
time in their lives. They couldn't go anywhere, they couldn't do anything.
1:17:04
They had family members in physical health facilities and geriatric care facilities that they couldn't
1:17:13
go visit that they were worried about. And you know a lot of us
1:17:17
lost people in care facilities. My mom died in hospital and I never thought
1:17:26
that would happen, you know, and so all of that, like everybody
1:17:32
that's been through that should be able to think about, you know, what
1:17:34
you experienced when you were isolated, and then imagine what if you didn't have
1:17:41
the tools to step back into your regular life. What if it wasn't a
1:17:46
lockdown that that was temporarily affecting you, what if this was just your regular
1:17:53
life, you had this all your life, wouldn't you be depressed? Wouldn't
1:17:58
you have anxiety? You know, wouldn't wouldn't you experience some resentment a lot?
1:18:03
I mean they were angry about the lockdowns. Imagine if it was other
1:18:06
people just refusing to let you into their social circle because you're weird that I
1:18:13
had. That happened to me too. Well, not because I was weird,
1:18:16
so it was because I was weird. So I had that experience.
1:18:21
You know, I got refused an invitation to Thanksgiving one year during this whole
1:18:29
three and a half years of hell isolation. And because this was an old
1:18:34
coworker of mine, right um, and because his wife was, you know,
1:18:40
under the COVID paranoia. She didn't want unvaccinated people in the house.
1:18:45
So he had totally opened his own to me. But because she was,
1:18:49
you know, again with COVID paranoia, Oh, I don't think it's gonna
1:18:54
be okay. So so there's that, you know, But then like watching
1:19:00
people get back to their normal lives, and for me, it was just
1:19:04
like there is no normal life because of the these restrictions still exist, you
1:19:12
know, So the resentment of seeing people come and go. They're going on
1:19:17
vacation, They're going, I'm going here with my wife. I'm taking days
1:19:21
off to go do this. And you know, when you can't, when
1:19:28
you can't also enjoy the time off from work that you work all year for,
1:19:34
you know what I mean when you because because you don't have that person
1:19:41
that you want to spend that time with because of these stupid fucking regulations that
1:19:46
three years in, we know that this is all just bullshit and propaganda,
1:19:54
you know, but yetting still there's still holding onto them. And it was,
1:19:59
oh my god, it was like every six months, we're just checking,
1:20:03
yeah, is it going to happen? Can it happen? Every time
1:20:08
you hear a little something in the news, you know, and then you
1:20:11
can't believe anything that you hear. I mean, the the loss of trust
1:20:16
that so many people have in these institutions that are supposed to be here,
1:20:25
right, They're supposed to be here to help us, to you know,
1:20:29
serve us, and that's not what they're doing anymore. They're serving themselves.
1:20:34
Imagine if they were doing that to you your whole life. And I like,
1:20:38
this is what I'm thinking about when I'm looking at this research, and
1:20:40
I'm looking at this UM description. You know, they went on with this
1:20:45
UM information from direct questioning of two hundred and seventy two persons self identified within
1:20:50
cell complex. Again there was no such self identification. So that's that.
1:20:56
First Bits of Life indicated that sixty four percent reported having UM depressive episodes,
1:21:03
sixty percent reported anxiety, forty eight reported forty eight percent reported having suicidal thoughts,
1:21:10
and twenty eight percent reported having PTSD. Like all of these things,
1:21:15
whether they're and again it's very possible that like she's doing the same thing with
1:21:19
this as as as the previous where she misreported the numbers. But even if
1:21:26
she was right, even if that that is the numbers, this is not
1:21:31
UM. People are not in cells because they have these experiences. People have
1:21:36
these experiences because they're in a situation that has has been partly imposed by their
1:21:45
living conditions and partly socially imposed on them. And how the heck did you
1:21:50
just you know, let that be your whole life and not experience some of
1:21:54
these things or plays a little sometimes, like you know, sometimes the certain
1:22:01
things that they have maybe a batter early life experience PTSD, anxiety, depression,
1:22:05
might contribute to them being an install and then being also in cell and
1:22:11
alone for years and bullied would further you know that. And it's just like
1:22:16
a self perpetuating cycle. So it does become again an issue of like,
1:22:23
if you're a therapist that you're gonna, um try to treat somebody whose experiences
1:22:29
experiencing these issues and one of the factors in their lives is that they're involuntarily
1:22:34
celibate. It is it is fair to look at it as you know,
1:22:40
hey, is that all these experiences are they contributing to the involuntary celibacy?
1:22:47
Is the celibacy contributing to these um these issues and is there you know,
1:22:54
a different pathway than normal that we might need to take to help this individual
1:22:59
again you know what they're what they're looking for. So this is where it
1:23:03
gets into advice advice for completing a risk assessment. In their review, the
1:23:09
UK researchers discussed aspects to consider when completing a risk assessment for a patient with
1:23:14
possible in cell complex and on existent. There's a researcher who ever did that,
1:23:19
because that's not a thing go on. They never they ever said that.
1:23:23
Overall, some of the most important aspects to inquire about and discuss with
1:23:27
the patient would be internet use, relationship history, yeah, misogyny, frustrations
1:23:35
and illness, autism, and indoctrination into insell ideology. I mean, well,
1:23:43
listen, if we're going to go off of that description, you might
1:23:45
as well call me a fucking in cell. Jesus Christ, Now he would
1:23:51
voluntarily sellimate. That outrage me and my daughter like our equally outraged. I
1:24:01
probably have to jump off here. Yeah, I mean it's just ridiculous internet
1:24:08
use. So so what which? Just is this what you want? You
1:24:13
just want to monitor everybody's fucking Internet usage, you know, you just want
1:24:17
to. I really feel that there's a little bit of that angle there.
1:24:23
But you know, I really would love to know how they are drawing these
1:24:31
correlations because there's no no explanation whatsoever anywhere here. It's just all speculation.
1:24:41
Yeah. This this piece is completely just slapped together and there's no that there's
1:24:45
no integrity in it at all. There isn't even a veneer of it.
1:24:47
It's like barely even trying. Yeah, it's why why I looked at that
1:24:51
as being similar to that phenomenon of by rote education, where the student has
1:24:58
no understanding of apple ability. Remember, not not long ago, early a
1:25:05
generation or two, people were judged on the number of TV hours they got
1:25:11
in day to day. This person, which is ten hours of television a
1:25:15
day. Can any of you even believe that? Shock horror? You notice
1:25:20
that's disappeared in this day and age, and it's been replaced with this little
1:25:27
phrase internet use Yeah, m not not not because it makes you lazy and
1:25:34
somewhat zombified, like the TV arguably did because the TV was never on demand.
1:25:41
It's just whatever the powerful people happened to be telling you, especially back
1:25:45
in the day when there were just four channels. Well, I think it's
1:25:47
like the demonization of you know, like when heavy metal was a bad thing,
1:25:55
you know, and oh my god, yes, it's it's like the
1:25:58
demonization of the print impress by the scribes who had total monopoly over which books
1:26:03
could be written. Right Like when this new thing comes along where every almost
1:26:08
everyone can can get all the information in the world, that's that's that's going
1:26:13
to make the palms sweat of you know, the the old media. And
1:26:18
a lot of these psychologists in question putting this together are people who have only
1:26:25
ever got their information from the old media from where do you suppose, like
1:26:31
government officials get their news. It's not the internet, is it. It's
1:26:36
the television, it's the newspapers, and and and so it's not it's not
1:26:43
even a conspiracy theory to say that people who cling onto to to the devices
1:26:49
of the old world, like the old media, like like television and newspapers
1:26:54
and stuff, they could they're going to look at the Internet and go,
1:26:57
well, we have to curtail that as much as possible until we own it.
1:27:01
And they're on the elevant journey to own it. But in the meantime
1:27:05
they're demonizing it like orders of magnitude, more than the TV was ever demonized.
1:27:15
And in this in these various other words they use in that in that
1:27:24
list relationship history, well, yeah, they're in cells. Of course.
1:27:27
It involves the relationship history misogyny. It's a similar thing. It's you know,
1:27:33
demonized in the way the Internet is demonized because because it works for the
1:27:39
old media, it's it's one of their buzzwords. They like to think it's
1:27:43
it's a new phenomenon that they're dealing with, but at the same time they
1:27:45
say, no, it's the world's oldest phenomenon. It's existed since as long
1:27:49
as humans have existed, so they're always going to have to demonize misogyny.
1:27:55
But I think in this instance, when we're talking about it in cells,
1:27:59
it's particularly egregious because they are completely dismissing women as being capable of not being
1:28:17
able to have a sexual being an involuntarily celibate person. Right, right,
1:28:25
right, it's only a male phenomenon, and that's completely wrong. As for
1:28:32
frustrations, literally every human being has frustrations. You don't even need to you
1:28:41
don't even need to grill them for that long to find out what frustrates them
1:28:44
in life. It could be anything from I can't see my children too,
1:28:49
I don't like the way ketchup packets open. It could be anything you can't
1:28:55
ascertain, anything from what you from what any given person calls frustrations, mental
1:29:00
illness, autism. M Yeah, interesting that that autism is the subheading there
1:29:09
and nothing else, because autism is the only thing anyone can suffer from anyone.
1:29:15
It's not like there's such a thing as the opposite of autism, and
1:29:19
this couldn't possibly be affecting anyone and indoctrinations into intell ideology. Again, that's
1:29:28
sort of tautologous in the same way relationship history is. How do you determine
1:29:32
if somebody's been indoctrinated, well, how intual ideology and what that ideology is.
1:29:40
I think that's a lot that's made up. How do you even indoctrinate
1:29:44
someone into just being undesirable? Right? Like, that's that's not how this
1:29:50
works. You don't indoctrinate someone into saying that no one in the world is
1:29:58
going to find the attractive, the complete pants on head, upside down description
1:30:04
of this thing. This is not what happens. Is you exist in this
1:30:12
world and you can you want a thing, you want a relationship, and
1:30:16
you have this inability to form that connection with a person. It's not an
1:30:23
indoctrination. It's not like someone can come in and mind mild you and say,
1:30:29
oh my god, I must be so horrible. I'm Do you understand
1:30:38
how stupid it sounds? Like I said in cell is a circumstance. It's
1:30:43
like being a virgin is a circumstance. It's like indoctrination into virgin ideology.
1:30:48
Seeing how ridiculous that sounds like, It's it's something only a frat boy would
1:30:54
say about a nerd, that's exactly what's going on here. Yea indoctrination into
1:30:59
inside ideology when in cell is just an extra layer of of identitarian demonization that's
1:31:09
applied to virgin males or almost virgin males. You know what I mean.
1:31:14
Yeah, Well, I mean in this situation, exclusively males, because you
1:31:19
know, we're talking about relationships and involuntary why can I talk involuntarily being celibate.
1:31:30
We're not talking about lesbian relationships. I mean, of course, it
1:31:35
doesn't exclude that from being a possibility, but it's clear the angle that they're
1:31:42
going for, and that is sis hetero men. Yeah. Um, I'm
1:31:49
gonna I'm gonna interrupt in we lost Nama. She's a mommy and she had
1:31:56
to have she had bedtime duties. Um, so we are going to I
1:32:00
think we're going to continue this next week if I'm going to get with her
1:32:02
and see if I can get her back on next week. Um. But
1:32:05
because I do want to talk about like some of what they're saying with regard
1:32:10
to therapy, and then I would like to look a little bit into the
1:32:15
um. The one bit of research that she was part of because I think
1:32:20
that is um uh that that is something that we ought to discuss in conjunction
1:32:28
with us. The one thing I really wanted to um nail down on this
1:32:32
episode was this is something that is being promoted to the therapispeutic community UM as
1:32:40
a way of looking at people with this circumstance in their life. And it's
1:32:48
I think, uh, feminism is promoting this worldwide. Um. This is
1:32:54
like so they're they're treating it as a threat, and they're treating it as
1:32:58
a reverse cause and effect condition where they are looking at things which might be
1:33:03
causes of the condition or the circumstance as or that might be effects of the
1:33:10
circumstance. I'm sorry, as if they are causes of the circumstance. You're
1:33:15
sad because you're lonely. Shame on you, that's the reason nobody likes you.
1:33:18
Well, Actually, sadness because you're lonely comes after the loneliness. Think
1:33:25
before you you know, speak right. So, those those are the things
1:33:29
that I wanted to get across here, and I kind of want to look
1:33:31
at this research a little more just because it may be complete bullshit. The
1:33:39
article, not the research in terms of one of the things that she mentioned
1:33:43
before the show was that a lot of what was said in the article didn't
1:33:45
come from the research that she was citing. Feminists do this all the time,
1:33:49
and they do. There's two things that they will do in regard to
1:33:54
this. One of them is like that WebCrawler things she described that they'll do
1:34:00
something like that, and it's clearly just crap. Research is junk, it's
1:34:06
not real science, and they'll write reports based on that, and then they
1:34:13
will use those reports as the basis the facts behind some other made up type
1:34:19
of research. So they'll they'll say, well, we have established X,
1:34:27
so when we go through data why from this survey that we're taking, We're
1:34:35
going to filter that data through the idea that X is true when we do
1:34:42
our report, and then that report will be used as a similar basis for
1:34:48
how they filtered the data and another piece of research, and pretty soon you
1:34:54
have eight layers of bad research under which the original confirmation bias is buried,
1:35:02
and the top layer that people start using as a basis for creating new therapies
1:35:10
or determining how the police are going to respond if they find out somebody is
1:35:15
an in cell. That top layer looks very legitimate because it's got it's heavily
1:35:21
sourced, it's got good methodology in terms of how the data is collected.
1:35:28
But then those filters that they're putting it through when they analyze it and determine
1:35:35
their conclusions, those filters are all based on that confirmation bias that is now
1:35:43
hidden under eight layers of house of cards fake research. And so when you
1:35:48
look at it, it looks valid, but it's not. But you have
1:35:53
to dig through eight layers to find it, and seven of them are now
1:35:58
behind a paywall, and the bottom layer is so established that it is cited
1:36:03
by numerous sources, and the fact that it's cited by numerous sources becomes a
1:36:10
legitimizing factor in the research community. That's one thing they do. The other
1:36:15
thing they do, and this is something that was Murray Strauss reported on this,
1:36:18
and his whole career was derailed by feminists because they were mad about him
1:36:26
explaining these things. Is that they just basically report things that they didn't find,
1:36:32
and this individual writing the story is doing both. Yeah. So but
1:36:39
with that, I'm going to get into our super chats. We only,
1:36:43
to my knowledge, when we have one super chat from st zero zero seven
1:36:48
seven gave us five dollars. Looks like Australian says, have you ever considered
1:36:53
the in cells and mail to female trans are part of natural selection? And
1:37:00
I would say there's a degree to which you have a point. There's also
1:37:03
a degree to which our modern society, which is influenced by gina centric culture,
1:37:14
um, has warped our selection process. And it's not natural anymore.
1:37:20
M really significantly warped it. Like the idea of romance, that's not natural,
1:37:30
not the not the modern idea, Like the idea of romance where it
1:37:33
goes both ways is a little more natural. Um. The idea of having
1:37:36
gender roles is actually natural, that happens in nature all the time. But
1:37:43
the idea of it being strictly the male gender role to maintain both sides of
1:37:49
the relationship, that that's mutter bullshit. That's not natural. So it's hard
1:37:58
to really call that natural selection. NOBA Fan twenty one gave us a rumble
1:38:08
rant for a dollar and said, quote, experts seeing short men feeling rejected
1:38:13
by women, why do these men hate women? Modern women shuns short men
1:38:18
experts, I see nothing wrong here. Yeah, that's that's part of the
1:38:23
that's part of the problem with a lot of this research. Like now,
1:38:27
some of the um, some of the research that this article is allegedly based
1:38:31
on, didn't say the things the writer said that the research said. So
1:38:36
we'll have to look at that a little more, um when we get NAMA
1:38:40
back on, because I can I can see we definitely have a little bit
1:38:45
of an iceberg to dig into here too. Um. But yeah, I
1:38:50
it's it's really ridiculous to attribute hatred as the reason why women reject men when
1:38:59
the hatred doesn't exist, first of all, and second of all, the
1:39:03
things that they're calling evidence of hatred don't happen until after the rejection. Let's
1:39:14
see, getting to the super chows are super chows are hard to find.
1:39:20
I'm on a super chow hunt. I gotta say hunt carefully, Yeah,
1:39:29
yeah, okay, and scroll to the bottom and then back up to the
1:39:34
done. Meredith g gave us five dollars and said, HBr talk to sixty
1:39:40
four. Thanks for the interesting and thoughtful conversation about complex issues. And I
1:39:45
like that complex, especially like the made up term in cell complex. So
1:39:49
just remember when you see stuff like this guy's there is no such thing as
1:39:54
in cell complex. It is a made up term. M h. Yes,
1:40:00
it is a made up turn and it is not a term made up
1:40:04
by the medical community to describe a phenomenon that exists. It is a term
1:40:12
made up by a writer to describe a phenomenon she wants to get conveyed to
1:40:17
the public and is using research that doesn't describe it. So that's really important.
1:40:27
Zapiers gave us five dollars and said in cells don't exist. What people
1:40:30
are calling in cell is actually TfL true forced loneliness. It's almost impossible to
1:40:35
be an in cell. You want sex, you hire an escort, or
1:40:40
go to a strip club that has a condom dispenser. Unless you're in a
1:40:44
prison, physically or mentally disabled, chances are you're not actually an insull.
1:40:48
The term in cell is just a derogatory way of calling someone true forced loneliness.
1:40:56
It's not even about sex for them, they just want a relationship.
1:40:59
But even that gets demonized, even by people like Blair White quote. Feeling
1:41:04
entitled to relationships is such a male thing. Yeah, this is This is
1:41:12
a tough one for people, I think to understand women feel entitled to relationships.
1:41:19
If a woman hits on a guy and she gets rejected, she goes
1:41:24
off, and I've I've seen instances where women have attacked physically and injured people
1:41:30
because they've been rejected, and then the victim gets blamed. Right now,
1:41:39
I didn't hear that quote from Blair White directly, so I don't know if
1:41:43
if that was actually said or the context of it. I'm assuming it has
1:41:45
to be something real or it wouldn't be described here. But this is I
1:41:55
would I would attribute it to a degree to maybe attractive person syndrome, because
1:42:01
this is something that again, if you're five or below, you understand as
1:42:06
a woman, and as women start to age, they start to figure it
1:42:11
out. Like I would say, my teeth hit the wall for me,
1:42:15
and that makes a big difference for people. Although, like I said,
1:42:18
I'm not looking, so I don't it doesn't affect me the way that it
1:42:21
would affect me if I was twenty years old. And when I was twenty
1:42:25
years old, I had my pick, you know, and so it was
1:42:29
easy for me, and there I had a lot of friends who were not
1:42:34
in that circumstance. Like I had friends who had physical features that made it
1:42:41
difficult for them to connect with other people. And I had friends that had
1:42:44
psychological features that made it difficult for them to connect with other people. Because
1:42:47
I just hung out with everybody and I liked people. I didn't limit myself
1:42:55
to a group of people with specific interests or a specific level of popularity.
1:43:00
Just if people were nice to me, I was nice to them, and
1:43:03
that gave me insights, just because I was able to see the experiences of
1:43:10
the people around me into you know, it isn't this easy for everybody.
1:43:15
And it's unfair to look at somebody and demonize them because they're lonely, they're
1:43:23
sad, they're maybe angry at the way people treat them when they seek connection,
1:43:29
and they get rejected over and over again for superficial reasons, like you
1:43:34
have zits, or you have too much dandroff, or you don't know how
1:43:40
to speak the current language, the current slang properly. You know, you
1:43:45
can't dance like all the things that women dump on men for. And it
1:43:53
is it is an entitlement to resent being rejected. That's natural entitlement? Would
1:44:02
it be if you try to force yourself on the other person, And that
1:44:09
happens a lot with women. Women will blackmail. They'll threaten to tell everybody
1:44:14
that you're gay or that you did something to them, or otherwise humiliate you.
1:44:18
They will guilt trip, they will threatened suicide. They will treat it
1:44:25
as as if the rejection never happened, like you you're now part of their
1:44:31
lives, even though you said no, I've seen women get grabby. They
1:44:39
will. They will hit, kick, punch, they will create, um,
1:44:45
fake stories and sick other people on you like that's entitlement. So if
1:44:50
if she said that it's a male thing, she got it all wrong,
1:44:57
that I think I think it's becau because that's an aspect of female experience that
1:45:02
she's never had. And um, I've I've been. I grew up with
1:45:11
um my my my brother was a very adept musician, and not originally originally
1:45:15
when he picked up his first guitar, he sounded like, um, a
1:45:19
cat fight in the back alley, Like it was awful, I'm laid out
1:45:27
instrument right, and and so he Um, he really worked hard to get
1:45:36
good. And I mean when I say he really worked hard to get good,
1:45:41
I mean imagine dedicating yourself to something you know, and you've probably had
1:45:47
this, Mike, because young I know you you play guitar. Um sixteen
1:45:51
hours a day. He would spend on that thing he had. You know,
1:45:55
there's there's blood embedded in his first guitar from his fingers like that.
1:46:03
It's like the right, it's just right, and you know, and and
1:46:10
he went without other things that you know, he would want to do to
1:46:15
get good at that. And then he didn't stop with that. He learned
1:46:18
how to play the piano, He learned how to play the banjo, He
1:46:20
plays the bass, guitar, he plays the harmonica, the drums, the
1:46:27
violin, he learned a little bit of saxophone. Like he just he really
1:46:31
went all in for music. And his first band, um was locally popular.
1:46:38
His second band was locally popular. The hard thing, he couldn't find
1:46:42
people as dedicated as he was. It's just not you know, there there's
1:46:45
not a million people out there that want to play sixteen hours a day and
1:46:49
you know, keep going after their fingers start bleeding, and most of them
1:46:55
move out to the big city, right, and he did. Eventually he
1:47:00
went to Nashville for a while, like he's been all over. But when
1:47:02
we were teenagers, you know what happens when a guy gets really good at
1:47:08
guitar, and he's got a band and he's a good performer and he can
1:47:11
sing like he got groupies and you know, part of me wants to refer
1:47:15
to them as gropies, right, And I saw some of that toxicity.
1:47:20
Like it's it's a totally different you know, I had. I had my
1:47:25
level of popularity that was you know, not really I wasn't aware of it.
1:47:31
When I was growing up. I always felt like an outcast until I
1:47:35
went to my first high school reunion and discovered that actually people liked me and
1:47:41
I didn't know it. Um. And and you know, my brother,
1:47:45
he was aware. He was aware of all he did all the social butterfly
1:47:48
stuff that you usually would expect the sister to do. UM he was.
1:47:55
He was buddies with everybody, and he had a lot of really close friends
1:47:58
and you know, he didn't party party, but he went out with people
1:48:01
and did a lot of fun stuff. And uh, he did. He
1:48:06
did have, UM some situations where you know, gals were were a little
1:48:13
more toxic in their boundary issues, whereas I really didn't get a lot of
1:48:17
that. UM. It was a rare thing for me to experience it.
1:48:21
And when I did. It was with a guy who was abnormal as guys
1:48:25
went had had other things going on that you know, he's missing, Um,
1:48:30
some things that that uh, normally you developed to understand boundaries and probably
1:48:38
uh, you know, those guys were victims of violence when they were growing
1:48:41
up, or they grew up without guidance that they needed, and uh,
1:48:45
that's something like now I'm part of a huge community that is almost exclusively men,
1:48:51
Like there's a handful of women involved in the community, and we love
1:48:56
it. We love you guys, um, and and none of the things
1:49:00
that feminists threaten us with happen in this community. And we're in a community
1:49:05
of men who can be classified as malcontents based on their circumstances and the things
1:49:11
that we discuss. And I don't see that level of toxicity. So it's
1:49:17
definitely not a male behavior. It's a behavior that's more tolerated when women do
1:49:24
it. It's a dysfunctional behavior, and you see it manifest more in women
1:49:29
and girls than you do in men and boys, because women and girls can
1:49:33
get away with it and we don't criticize it when they do it. So
1:49:40
I know that was a long answer, but it would be I would love
1:49:45
to actually have a conversation with her about this, because I think she's missing
1:49:51
some factors that could contribute to a different conclusion. And I will bet if
1:49:58
she was, her attention was drawn to those factors that might change her conclusion.
1:50:04
She strikes me as somebody who thinks and considers things and doesn't just knee
1:50:10
jerk decide on something and then defend it for life. But egregious Charles gives
1:50:16
us ten dollars and says, here have some money, and to that,
1:50:20
I say, thank you very much. That was very sweet. Audit the
1:50:24
Thoughts gave us five dollars and said, got a head out. I will
1:50:27
check out this show and the aftershow later. Here's five dollars for support.
1:50:30
And I think that is all of our that's all of our Yep, that's
1:50:41
all of them. Because let's see okay, And we have one that says,
1:50:44
oops, sorry, I didn't mean to push that. So how do
1:50:45
you delete? And I think this the guy can delete it? Delete this
1:50:50
message? Yes, ha, guess what, guys, I can actually delete
1:50:57
comments. Going to delete the delete the comment about deleting the comment now,
1:51:03
And now that I've deleted it, I can tell you it was on Rumble,
1:51:10
so you'll see. I don't know if it'll show two messages deleted by
1:51:13
moderator. Um, but there you go. UM. ST seven game is
1:51:18
five dollars and said Blair White is man in dress. He says the right
1:51:23
things, but he should not be allowed to speak on behalf of people that
1:51:25
want to live a normal life. So I know everybody has their different opinions
1:51:29
on trans issues. UM, and I I can I can respect Blair White's
1:51:33
identity. UM, and I will use she pronouns. She her pronouns for
1:51:40
Blair White because she does and and she's not demanding it. Um, she's
1:51:46
not going around shoving uh an ideology of you have to you have to sleep
1:51:54
with transgender people when you have to use the zens er and all that.
1:52:00
She's not doing all that. Um. What I don't respect within trans trans
1:52:08
gender ideology in general, actually not just trans. But what I don't respect
1:52:11
within that is when um, the individual develops a boundary complex where you have
1:52:17
to agree with them like uh, and I that they can go fuck themselves
1:52:25
when they do that. Like like so st W seven you have every right
1:52:29
and UM, I respect your right to not recognize someone's gender identity and to
1:52:39
um reject everything about the narrative that goes along with that, but you also
1:52:46
have to respect my right to choose on that same on that same topic.
1:52:56
So that's the way that basically the way we do things here. I think
1:52:59
I think one should be allowed to speak on behalf of people that want to
1:53:02
live a normal life, if only because that phrase is already loaded with the
1:53:08
idea of what normally even is. I mean, I don't have children,
1:53:13
it's I'm never going to have children. But if if I'm going to if
1:53:16
I'm gonna tell you that your children shouldn't be reading pornographic books supplied by your
1:53:23
school, are you going to tell me you don't get to say that because
1:53:26
you don't have children. You're not, are you. You're going to go
1:53:30
along with whatever you agree with, regardless of the person who's saying it,
1:53:35
And that's probably for the best as long as you don't apply this hypocrisy that
1:53:44
we find ourselves arguing against so much. If someone is making a good point,
1:53:49
it doesn't matter where they come from or what else they're doing in their
1:53:55
own lives. Like when someone makes a point, ask yourself, what if
1:54:00
that person never existed, but their point did. Yeah, you would have
1:54:04
to argue the point. You would have to completely ignore the person who made
1:54:09
it and just judge the argument. And that's how you should do everything like
1:54:15
it, no matter if it's someone you've never met on the internet expressing a
1:54:20
point, or if it's someone in your own family expressing a point. Never
1:54:26
go personal because that does not help any argument, even if it's someone in
1:54:30
your personal life. If someone makes an argument, address the argument. If
1:54:36
you find yourself reduced to addressing the person who's making the argument, you have
1:54:41
failed. You are doing the very worst thing that they will do, and
1:54:45
you'll notice them doing it. Like when you make an argument, an argument
1:54:50
they can't address, they address the person making Instead, we call it at
1:54:55
harmonym and I know and another. That's an overused diagnosis of the problem,
1:55:00
but it's because it's because it keeps happening. Yeah, And you never need
1:55:06
to reduce yourself to saying, well, this person doesn't live the life that
1:55:11
I live, so I don't have to listen to the arguments. Well,
1:55:14
no, you don't have to listen to it, to anyone's arguments. But
1:55:16
if you're if you're going to adhere to any standards of argument, and you
1:55:21
can't just dismiss the point someone is making based on the life they live.
1:55:28
It's that they're not connected. They're really not. It's it's really important to
1:55:34
um to point out again, you know, like this is this is somebody
1:55:39
that is a thinking person as well. You know, like it's one thing
1:55:44
when someone like big Red comes along and makes a blatant, stupid statement,
1:55:49
you know, and we'll make fun of that because we know that she doesn't
1:55:55
stop and consider information. She has a preconceived notion, and she will reform
1:56:00
at the information to meet the preconceived notion and then try to force it on
1:56:06
you. Right. And the thing that makes me amenable to Blair White and
1:56:14
individuals similar to her in that they're may be different from everybody else in a
1:56:19
lot of ways, and their lifestyle is different from everybody else in a lot
1:56:25
of ways, but they do say things that make sense, you know,
1:56:30
say the right things. As you put it, is I think that if
1:56:34
I had a valid and rational argument against something that Blair White said, she'd
1:56:43
consider that argument, and if she couldn't argue against it, she may change
1:56:48
her mind on something. And if somebody is in that place where you know
1:56:55
they're gonna they're gonna consider the information. They might change their mind mind um
1:57:00
based on new information. Uh. And and they're not just you know,
1:57:06
well, this is what I want to believe, So I'm going to tailor
1:57:10
the information I take in to this belief. Um. I've got to I've
1:57:14
got to have some respect for that logic is invaluable. It's it's it's it's
1:57:19
immeasurable in its value. UM. It's you can't you can't reach useful conclusions
1:57:29
without it. And so you can't just dismiss somebody that uses logic and reason
1:57:35
to draw their conclusions because you don't like their lifestyle. Um, then we
1:57:41
have another uh super chat. St wo seven says people that cannot have children
1:57:45
and families should not be allowed by people that can to have any power of
1:57:49
them. I don't think anybody should have power um over Like, for instance,
1:57:58
I don't think the government should be telling you where to educate your child,
1:58:02
or how to educate your child, how to raise your child, what
1:58:05
your child can and can't read, imposing any reading on your child. The
1:58:11
government shouldn't be doing any of those things. Right, even even if the
1:58:15
government is pulling money out of my pocket to pay for a school system that
1:58:19
your child can go to. I don't think the government should be telling your
1:58:23
you that you have to send your child into that school system. Like two
1:58:28
wrongs don't do not make or right. So that shouldn't be limited. Like
1:58:33
my neighbors that have kids should not have any power over how, for instance,
1:58:40
I raised my kids, or how my kids raise my grandkids, like
1:58:45
none of that. It just shouldn't be the closest we should have to that
1:58:50
is it's fair when we have a community response if if somebody is injuring their
1:58:58
child, And when I say injuring, I mean you know you you see
1:59:00
that kid come out of the house with bruises, and you know from from
1:59:06
having seen evidence that the bruises are caused by the parent beating the child.
1:59:13
You know, like when the when it gets that pathological, then yeah,
1:59:15
there has to be somebody, some kind of a rescue. But if you
1:59:20
teach your child to uh to to respect the teachings of a particular church,
1:59:27
and the neighbors teach their child that um magic is real and they can stand
1:59:35
in a grove of trees and chant and cast spells and it doesn't have anything
1:59:40
to do with your church. One group shouldn't be able to tell the other
1:59:45
group you can't do that. Yeah, and uh, you know again the
1:59:50
clarification um, gay people should not be into allowed into power. I don't
1:59:58
agree with that either. I don't think being having a lifestyle should have any
2:00:02
effect. I don't think having a lifestyle determines whether or not you are able
2:00:09
to act on logic and reason. Right, It's it goes down to this,
2:00:15
any power that you think people shouldn't have because of a particular lifestyle,
2:00:20
our government shouldn't have at all, whether the people in our government are gay,
2:00:27
straight, black, white, left, right up down. I don't
2:00:30
care if it's too much power for any type of person to have. It's
2:00:34
too much power for every type of person to have. So and you can't
2:00:42
really say that a trans women. A trans woman can't speak on behalf of
2:00:46
either sex. So you can't say she can't speak on behalf of women because
2:00:50
she's a man in address, but she can't speak on behalf of men because
2:00:54
I don't like her lifestyle. Like frankly, she's going to have contributions to
2:00:58
the discussions on gender issue for both genders, both sexes. Just not nobody's
2:01:05
in authority on those things, Like we all have that So like that's just,
2:01:13
um, you can't exclude somebody from the conversation because you don't like their
2:01:18
their their life, you don't like their life choices. That's just not the
2:01:24
way it works. You can argue with them, you say, like the
2:01:28
statement that you highlighted, Like, I can argue with that statement based on
2:01:31
the evidence of personal experience and also based on some research that demonstrates that women
2:01:39
engage in the same kind of predatory behaviors that feminists like to attribute to men.
2:01:45
But that's that's using again logic and reason, and I think that's a
2:01:50
hundred times more valuable than taking somebody's label and saying, well, because you
2:01:55
have this label, we aren't going to listen to anything you say. Um,
2:02:01
So like it's it's it's not I guess the best way for me to
2:02:10
put it is, it's not um useful in in coming to conclusions that are
2:02:17
that are factual and are going to help the movement, help men, help
2:02:23
women. None of that to to start dividing that way, it's helpful.
2:02:29
It's useful to be able to analyze information and analyze conclusions that people draw and
2:02:38
and criticize those and say, hey, you know, here's here's what you're
2:02:42
missing, or you know, I don't see what you're seeing. Can you
2:02:45
tell me what I'm missing so that you know, I can I can,
2:02:50
I can see if my conclusion is wrong. Uh, that's that's much more
2:02:54
useful. That's how we get to a situation where we treat people, uh
2:02:58
correctly, in a way that respects everybody's rights, and where we look at
2:03:04
the problems that we're dealing with in society and the solutions that we want to
2:03:09
apply and sort out the solutions that are actually going to UM help people and
2:03:16
make people's lives better as opposed to, you know, just going the authoritarian
2:03:23
route. So there you go. UM deadly do Right says it gave us
2:03:30
two dollars and stead lost in the weeds. Let's get back to on content
2:03:32
please, UM. Content will return in the next episode. This is sort
2:03:38
of the end of the episode. I'm just doing the super chats. But
2:03:44
to relate this to the content we had today, UM saying that Blair White
2:03:50
shouldn't be listened to on gender issues because she's a man in the address and
2:03:57
is therefore not one gender or the other. UM, I think that's the
2:04:02
conclusion that you're drawing. Correct me if I'm wrong. Is it's kind of
2:04:08
like saying that UM in cells shouldn't have any ideas about relationships and what they
2:04:15
want in relationships because they don't have relationships with people like that. I guess
2:04:24
that would be similar like you can't you can't you can't decide what you would
2:04:29
like your relationship to be like because you're not in a relationship. Therefore you
2:04:34
can't have any say on relationships. UM. There you go. So that's
2:04:42
that's the end of the super Chats, and I think the end of the
2:04:45
discussion with regard to the super chats. Um, I've gotten all through all
2:04:48
of the super Chows, and before anybody else comments, I think I'm gonna
2:04:57
go ahead and take us out of the show. So thanks guys for sticking
2:05:00
out the odd sausage. This was a lot of what was written about the
2:05:06
in cell population I think was kind of mean, although the research was clearly
2:05:15
not black and white, and I want to look more into it. I
2:05:18
will think nomicates for being on here with us. She had to go so
2:05:23
she might hear it later. And thanks everybody for listening and for the interesting
2:05:29
conversation, and good night. All men's Right activists are machines, dude.
2:05:36
Okay, they are literal machines. They are talking point machines. They are
2:05:42
impossible to deal with, especially if you have, like especially if you have
2:05:45
like a couple dudes who have good memory. On top of that, too,
2:05:48
holy shit, you're fucked.