Latest / Integrate This! Ed Tech Podcast / Portrait of a Graduate & Personalized Learning: Aman Sahota (Factors Education)

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Portrait of a Graduate & Personalized Learning: Aman Sahota (Factors Education) · Integrate This! Ed Tech Podcast

0:00
Welcome to Integrate This, your go -to edtech
0:03
podcast where curiosity meets classroom innovation.
0:07
Join your hosts, David Berner and Jeremy Mikla,
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as we explore the rapidly evolving world of educational
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technology. From game -changing tools to insightful
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conversations with today's top edtech voices,
0:18
we're here to help educators stay informed, inspired,
0:21
and ready to innovate. So tune in, level up,
0:25
and let's integrate this. Hey, welcome to the
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Integrate This EdTech podcast. I'm David Berner,
0:31
joined by co -host Jeremy Mickla. And today we
0:34
have a friend with us, Aman Sahota. And welcome,
0:38
Aman. Glad to have you. We're excited to have
0:43
you share about Factors Education. And we spent
0:46
a little bit of time together. Now it's been
0:48
a little while, but we spent a little time together
0:50
at FETC in Orlando when it wasn't so hot. and
0:56
got to hang out there a little bit. But welcome
0:59
to the show. Do you want to just start by telling
1:01
us a little bit about your journey? We'll get
1:04
into factors education and everything. But what
1:06
about before that, your story leading up to that?
1:09
Yeah, for sure. Definitely appreciate being on.
1:12
It's great seeing you again, Jeremy and Dave.
1:14
Yeah, before factors education even came to be.
1:18
Originally, my undergraduate, I studied sustainability,
1:21
earth environment, so forced by material and
1:24
energy environment. From there, I graduated from
1:27
the University of Toronto and started working
1:30
in the sustainability space. When I worked in
1:32
the sustainability space, I met a mentor, Mr.
1:35
Hajmeer, who kind of helped young entrepreneurs
1:37
create their own business. And he was focused
1:39
on the K -12 space. When I told him that my goal
1:42
was to make sustainable change in the world,
1:44
he said, the only way you can make sustainable
1:46
change in the world is through education because
1:48
our students of today are going to be our future
1:51
leaders tomorrow. So we continued working with
1:53
him. We did a few cool side projects just to
1:56
begin with. He introduced me to my co -founder,
1:59
Henry, who I'm still working with till this day.
2:01
Henry has a much more interesting backstory,
2:04
Olympic swimmer, start up at the age of 14, studied
2:07
quantum physics at Oxford University. We kind
2:10
of put our heads together. Our mentor I passed
2:14
away from COVID -19 during that time. After that,
2:17
we decided we needed to get some of the expertise
2:19
that he brought to kind of our organization,
2:22
our educational group. So I took a six month
2:25
road trip across the U .S., talked to over a
2:27
thousand educators and district leaders and learned
2:31
about the portrait graduate movement. And that
2:33
is kind of where we put all our attention to
2:36
and where we are today. Just a little brief synopsis
2:39
there. Cool and uh, so before before factors
2:43
too that your company that was it was called
2:46
something else, right? Yeah, we uh, we're called
2:49
ei amplified because we're really focused on
2:51
that emotional intelligence piece Uh, but people
2:54
can make sure the ei and ai because we're doing
2:57
work with ai And like yeah, it sounds really
2:59
similar to it. Uh, there's also another couple
3:02
organizations called amplified and then Um, once
3:06
we learned about the portrait graduate movement,
3:07
it was more research -backed. I had more Science
3:10
behind it and it was a movement that steadily
3:12
growing in the US And then we felt kind of transition
3:16
to developing different factors implement your
3:18
portrait graduate, but also different factors
3:20
personalized education for every single student
3:23
Yeah, so you mentioned professor Hajim here in
3:27
in the influence that he had on the direction
3:29
that eventually that you're going to take But
3:32
I want you to kind of think back here a little
3:35
bit, too uh to that relationship and the importance
3:40
of it in helping to set the direction for where
3:43
you're going you know with with factors education
3:46
and you and henry are are going lots of great
3:49
places here but you know describe some of that
3:52
like the first encounters and with professor
3:55
hajamir in in helping him lay the groundwork
3:59
for where you go like what happened you know
4:01
in your meetings with him that you know helped
4:03
to change the direction i know he said If you
4:05
want to change the future, you've got to go into
4:07
education here. But like, can you describe a
4:10
little bit of that for us? Yeah, for sure. For
4:12
me, I think it was kind of like a big coincidence
4:14
because I read this one book called Mastery by
4:17
Robert Green, who talked about how if you want
4:20
to become a master in your field, you need to
4:22
become an apprentice first. So essentially throughout
4:24
that time, I became an apprentice to him, kind
4:27
of absorbed all his knowledge, all his findings.
4:29
And what he said was mentorship was one of the
4:31
most important things to kind of undergo. but
4:35
also at the same time, you need to learn how
4:37
to learn and realize that you can learn a lot
4:40
of these things by yourself. So that was the
4:42
biggest thing that he kind of showed me was that
4:43
like, things may seem really hard, but if you
4:45
just put your time to it, you can learn the set
4:47
of skills you need to be an entrepreneur. He
4:49
also showed me kind of like the diverse skills
4:51
that you need for entrepreneurship, helped me
4:53
in this field of developing human relationships,
4:56
how to build connections over online, the online
4:59
space as well, because we were in COVID -19 during
5:02
that time when we first started. And it kind
5:04
of opened me up to the world of education, educated
5:06
me more on STEM, the future of where education
5:10
was moving as well. He was a big futurist as
5:13
well. Introduced me to the concept of open learning
5:15
academies and why those are so powerful as well.
5:20
And then right around the same time, AI was kind
5:23
of just starting to creep its way in. We were
5:24
already doing some work with sentiment analysis.
5:27
But when generative AI came about, kind of had
5:31
a clicking point where like, AI is kind of like
5:35
an open learning academy if you really think
5:36
about it. It gives you kind of those open educational
5:39
resources you need. It can help you develop skills
5:41
that would be associated with micro -credentials.
5:44
So it's kind of an aha moment. But I think the
5:46
biggest thing he taught me was probably learning
5:49
how to learn in a different way than we were
5:50
taught in school. Giving myself the confidence
5:53
that there is nothing that you cannot do. And
5:57
just being able to be like, I guess open to learning
6:00
from others as well. I'm getting that critical
6:02
feedback. So it's really he I would say he developed
6:05
the portrait graduate skills within me for entrepreneurship
6:09
Yeah, and it's I think a rather unique combination
6:14
of things that you you tied together You tied
6:18
together emotional intelligence, you tied together
6:21
the use of technology within your education,
6:27
the learning to learn, but also approaching it
6:30
from an equity lens at the same time. Do you
6:33
feel like that was an unusual combination of
6:36
factors that an individual was able to help mentor
6:40
you with? 100 % yeah and then I think a lot of
6:44
it came from also like just trying to get more
6:45
involved in the community as well because he
6:47
would encourage me to like get more involved
6:49
in the community so I was the equity lead for
6:51
the region of Peel overseeing 200 ,000 students
6:55
to ensure they got equitable and inclusive resources
6:57
which I don't think a lot of people working in
6:59
the space of AI kind of have that lens as well
7:01
and I was also a director of the Canadian Council
7:04
of Black Elder Trailblazers so again underway
7:06
that mentorship with some of the most prominent
7:08
black leaders in Canada For example, Jean Augustine
7:12
got to spend a lot of time with her, and she
7:15
was the first female Black MP in Canada, and
7:18
the reason we have Black History Month. So she's
7:20
about 87 years young now, but still going hard,
7:23
and kind of talked to me about advocacy, equity,
7:25
and how we can tie that into AI and the future
7:28
world we're living in, and how she did it back
7:30
then when she had to go get a paper and pen and
7:32
explain to people why Black History Month was
7:34
important. Yeah, I'm gonna I want to talk a little
7:38
bit to about factors education and what what
7:41
that platform does so like if a teacher goes
7:44
to Factors education. What's the first thing
7:47
that they see when they log into that platform?
7:50
Yeah, so the first thing they'll see is just
7:52
a simple onboarding to be able to get them get
7:54
to know them a bit better Like what is their
7:56
preferred teaching style? What is their digital?
8:01
What's their digital teaching style? Do they
8:02
like to do more PowerPoint? Are they a game of
8:05
fire? Are they creator? what type of supports
8:08
do their students need. Once they go through
8:10
that super quick, about five minutes, we directly
8:13
integrate with the LMS system they're currently
8:16
using. So an individual educator cannot come
8:18
on the platform themselves. We do need to have
8:20
a district sign on. And the reason we do that
8:24
is because we do work with a lot of personal
8:25
identifiable information. So we want to ensure
8:27
that your data is being protected. From there,
8:30
a student learner profile is created on every
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single student. These learner profiles collect
8:36
data on things like your Lexile level, your career
8:38
interest, your native language, your technology.
8:42
And what that essentially does is that when any
8:45
resource or materials created on the platform
8:46
and export out your learning management system,
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it will personalize those resources for you.
8:52
So say like Dave, you speak Spanish. Jeremy,
8:55
you speak like Polish. I speak Punjabi. we'll
8:57
all get resources in our native language. If
8:59
we read out different Lexile levels, we'll all
9:01
get resources at our Lexile level. If we have
9:03
different career interests and aspirations, it'll
9:05
give us the same learning objectives. But like,
9:07
you know, it may make a basketball reference
9:08
for me because I love basketball. It may make
9:11
like a workout reference for Dave because we
9:14
all know he loves to work out as well. And on
9:16
the back end, what happens is the district admin.
9:20
So we also work with the district admin. They
9:22
set up your portrait graduate. They define their
9:24
different instructional approaches. how they
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wanted to find competencies and provide local
9:28
context on real world problems, partnerships,
9:31
and kind of community resources they have. And
9:33
all of that, I guess, ingested into the educators
9:35
back end. So that's automatically aligned with
9:37
district priorities. Yeah, and one of the things,
9:41
the really interesting things about the platform
9:42
is like the conversations that occur within it
9:45
in the AI, like the AI conversations. And if,
9:49
so one of the things that Aman did for for us
9:53
we had an AI symposium that we did and uh you
9:58
know traditionally we were always just like we're
10:00
looking for feedback at the end of this event
10:02
and we would push out a survey you know it's
10:06
just more like it's going to be like a Microsoft
10:08
form or it's going to be a Google form right
10:10
it's like kind of your traditional the very widely
10:13
used options but then you showed me factors education
10:17
and I thought it was really cool because it it
10:19
allowed for the whoever participated in the event
10:23
to there's like a couple guiding things to get
10:26
started or whatever, but it really allows them
10:28
the space to actually write in what they felt
10:31
from the event and then follows up with, you
10:34
know, AI responses. And then it digs a little
10:36
bit deeper and things like that. And it was really
10:38
cool because we could even see the things that
10:41
they put in there that they typed in for gave
10:44
us much more feedback. I would say I would just
10:46
say like more meaningful feedback than a standard
10:48
kind of you know, one through five, you know,
10:52
scale or something like that. How did you guys
10:56
land on that approach for that platform? Like,
11:01
how did you land on, let's have the AI conversations
11:04
so that it digs in a bit deeper and it gives
11:08
the user a lot more opportunities for expressing
11:12
what they're actually thinking about something.
11:16
100 % that's actually I love that question one
11:19
of the ways that we kind of came about that approach
11:21
was we're actually looking for better measurements
11:24
for equity and When we're looking at equity measurements
11:28
Like people were waiting at rating how they felt
11:31
about equity and school districts on a scale
11:34
one to five once a year and that's not really
11:37
equitable like If you look at it, right like
11:40
Ray, how you feel about equity on like one day
11:43
where you're having a good day? And you just
11:45
rate two. And there's nothing else. And then
11:46
the person is left to interpret it, right? So
11:49
that was kind of like our big first moment where
11:51
we're like, OK, like the way data is being collected
11:53
right now, it's inherently biased because you're
11:55
collecting it once throughout the year. It takes
11:58
a year for it to be reported as well and develop
12:01
actual results. And then by the time you develop
12:03
that report, like it's already a year behind.
12:06
It's already kind of out of date. But when these
12:09
issues, when we're looking at it, they need to
12:11
be collected throughout the year. The most common
12:14
type of data collection that happens throughout
12:16
the year that teachers do all the time is reflection.
12:18
So we decided to make it a reflection piece or
12:20
part of our platform that at the end of any project
12:23
unit or lesson, we have a reflection that takes
12:25
place that will measure these students' competencies,
12:28
look at their understanding, but also continuously
12:30
update their learner profile. And then we kind
12:33
of did some iterations because we saw data collection
12:35
kind of as a huge problem and offered that to
12:37
a few conference providers. We've done it with
12:39
Spring Queue. We did it with IdeaCon. CSTA ties
12:44
ecosystem and obviously with Dave and his team
12:46
and another couple of school districts as well.
12:50
But really is looking at the concept of how can
12:52
we make measurement more effective? How can we
12:54
make it more personalized? And how can we ensure
12:56
that data is being reported right away as well?
12:58
Because those are three big gaps that we saw.
13:02
I think another important angle here to look
13:04
at it too is with a transparency lens. And I
13:07
know you've been rather outspoken that AI definitely
13:11
has an inherent bias problem. You know, that
13:14
the models that are being used to train the large
13:17
language models that we use kind of represent
13:20
a lack of diversity. And I think, you know, and
13:24
I remember having this conversation with you
13:25
earlier that, you know, that big tech companies
13:29
tend to like try to shy away from that, to sweep
13:34
it under the rug, to pretend that it's not there.
13:37
But why do you think it's important just to say
13:39
plainly that it does have this bias problem?
13:43
Yeah, I think one of the big pieces is that we
13:46
don't want the systemic discrimination that's
13:50
built into our education system to continue taking
13:52
place. So ensuring that we have that in our AI
13:55
models that are going to be interacting with
13:57
our students is super important. And ensuring,
13:59
because that's not something that's typically
14:01
covered in your privacy policy or your technology
14:04
policy or the vetting process. So ensuring that
14:06
a lot of district leaders are actually looking
14:09
at who's behind the technology, what experiences
14:11
they have with equity, what experiences they
14:13
have with diversity of populations. Because right
14:15
now, personally, I feel like AI can be a great
14:19
tool for equity and inclusion. but it takes kind
14:22
of the right mindset and it takes the right approach
14:25
to be able to do that and people with real lived
14:27
experiences in those groups that understand the
14:29
communities and what they go through. Otherwise
14:32
again it can just be exacerbated and just kind
14:34
of push out existing I guess stereotypes and
14:39
information that are already taking place within
14:41
school so it can just it can either be made to
14:43
break the cycle or remake the new one at the
14:46
same time. How do you try to address for that
14:49
within factors? Is it just being intentional
14:51
and, you know, transparent about it, or is there
14:55
something deeper? Yeah, so one of the things
14:57
we're currently trying to do is we're building
14:59
the benchmark in K to 12 for learner profiles
15:03
to actually see if AI can effectively and equitably
15:06
model individual student characteristics. We're
15:09
currently doing this with the University of Toronto
15:11
through an academic research partnership we have
15:13
with them. and we submitted that research to
15:15
the tools competition and are actually working
15:17
on creating a benchmark data set that will be
15:20
open source for all of K -12 to evaluate AIS
15:22
effectiveness to be able to model equitable practices
15:25
for each individualized students based upon their
15:27
characteristics. Yeah, and I think that's really
15:30
neat. I like the idea of applying that to your
15:34
profile of the graduate that you're talking about
15:36
here too. But also, there's a need for having
15:41
diverse groups of people represented when AI
15:45
is being talked about not just on a large scale
15:48
but also even if you think about it within a
15:50
district or within a school having you know diverse
15:53
sections of You know the the grade levels or
15:58
content areas that are being addressed but also
16:01
thinking about the diversity within the population
16:04
of your teaching staff and your student body
16:06
What do you think that? you know, a district
16:10
or a school, you know, you said to use factors,
16:13
you have to apply for it at the district level.
16:15
You know, what do you suggest that a district
16:18
do if they're looking to try to make sure that
16:22
they're getting a cross section that's representative
16:24
of their larger audience? For sure, I think when
16:29
it comes to kind of like the first steps of being
16:31
able to work with factors, I would say who needs
16:34
the most support in your district? That's typically
16:37
the population we work first with because that
16:40
personalization is so important for students.
16:43
Also at the same time, and this is a consistent
16:46
learning journey for me, like we've learned that
16:49
educators of different subjects or departments
16:51
kind of have different training and knowledge
16:54
behind them. For example, like CTE in California,
16:57
if you have three years of industry experience,
16:59
you're able to go and become an educator in CTE.
17:02
There's obviously a bit more credentialing that
17:04
you need. but it's not the same as like just
17:08
a traditional educator. So like learning where
17:10
the kind of gaps are within either your student
17:12
or your educator population of who needs additional
17:14
supports. The other populations we've seen work
17:16
really well with the factors platform is new
17:19
educators as well because they're creating everything
17:21
from scratch right and you want to ensure that
17:23
those priorities are being met. Or districts
17:25
with a high diverse student population in terms
17:28
of like free or reduced lunch programs or like
17:31
a high multilingual population as well. So really
17:35
just starting with those students who need the
17:37
most attention and most support is kind of our
17:39
focus There are conversations we're having like
17:42
looking at like juvenile court school systems
17:44
Looking at incarcerated youth how can we personalize
17:47
for some of the situations? Circumstances that
17:49
they're in because it's a lot different than
17:50
your traditional day -to -day school where students
17:53
are coming in and out of the system but really
17:55
focusing on like Being able to work with those
17:58
populations that need the most and we specifically
18:00
like to work with districts that have an existing
18:02
portrait graduate because they have the same
18:04
mission values and alignment as as we do and
18:07
they see education moving the same way forward
18:09
as us uh we're other districts they may have
18:11
it built into strategic plan so we can work with
18:14
them but if they don't have the competency based
18:15
education framework our our platform it's not
18:19
really for them to be honest so for districts
18:23
that are trying to wrap their head around the
18:26
portrait of a graduate um sometimes called profile
18:29
of a graduate and you know like Now we see to
18:32
where there's like the AI ready portrait of a
18:35
graduate and things like that. So for those folks
18:37
that aren't familiar, but you you'd want to explain
18:40
to them like what this is, how would you describe
18:44
what the portrait of a graduate is and why it's
18:47
important for a school to be thinking about?
18:50
Yeah, for sure. So I think there's been a couple
18:52
of research studies I showed employers. saw that
18:55
about 70 % of students right now are underprepared
18:58
and skills that are needed for the workforce,
19:00
like critical thinking, teamwork, problem solving,
19:02
communication. With AI, obviously, this gap is
19:05
becoming a lot larger. I'm sure the World Economic
19:09
Forum has some research out there, and McKenzie
19:10
has some research out there. But it's pretty
19:12
much saying that the way we're preparing students
19:14
for our future workforce isn't the best way,
19:18
especially in the world of AI. They need more
19:21
skills. So that's essentially what portrait graduate
19:23
is. The process usually takes place like this.
19:26
It varies from school district to school district.
19:28
What the typical, I guess, gold model standard
19:30
for a portrait graduate is the first year of
19:33
developing a portrait graduate is you go and
19:35
you engage the community. You'll engage parents,
19:38
students, businesses, educators, and kind of
19:41
come up with a list of competencies or skills
19:43
that you think are needed for your local community
19:46
for students to be able to thrive in the future
19:49
world. From there, they essentially start to
19:52
train educators on how to actually implement
19:54
these competencies, how they can relate to curriculum
19:56
standards. Some districts even go as far as creating
19:59
lesson plans, units or resources or purchasing
20:01
curriculum, which becomes quite expensive to
20:04
align with your portrait graduate. And then from
20:06
there, like CTE pathways are included, apprenticeships
20:10
are included, and there's more real kind of connections
20:12
to the real world workforce. So it typically
20:15
takes like a three or four year process just
20:17
to get started as a measurement and iteration
20:19
is a consistent piece. But some of the biggest
20:22
gaps are measurement for competencies is really
20:24
difficult and ensuring alignment in every single
20:27
classroom is quite difficult. And that's kind
20:29
of the gap we try to fill by solving the problem
20:31
of personalization, differentiation for educators,
20:33
but automatically aligning with your portrait
20:35
graduate. But if I were to sum up, it's essentially
20:38
looking at skills that you think your students
20:40
need to be ready for the world that they're going
20:43
to live in. Just a bit more context, 20 states
20:46
have a portrait graduate legislation. In New
20:50
York alone, by 2029, 2 .6 million students will
20:55
need to graduate the portfolio of their skills.
20:57
So New York is actually making a legislative
20:59
mandate that students need to have a portrait
21:01
graduate portfolio by 2029. And anyone who's
21:05
listening can kind of search up Board of Regents
21:07
portrait graduate and they'll be able to find
21:09
some of that information as well. So do you think
21:12
most schools are on the side of like they're
21:15
they're not? quite ready for that shift toward
21:18
competency -based learning? I would say most
21:23
schools haven't developed a strategic plan. They
21:27
say we want people to be focused in this area,
21:31
but then when it comes to operationalizing it
21:33
and implementing it, it becomes very difficult
21:35
because they can't control what's going on in
21:37
their classroom. At the same time, it is very
21:40
difficult to... Create competency based education
21:43
resources because you have 20 to 30 students
21:45
that all need different needs They all need different
21:48
supports and then you can only manage a few of
21:50
them at the same time As well, it ends up burning
21:54
teachers out because PBL does take quite a bit
21:56
of energy and resources So I think the intent
22:00
and the mission is there This rich tries our
22:04
best to provide supports and resources But at
22:06
the end of the day our teachers are overburdened
22:08
and this just feels like another thing being
22:10
added to their place. So It's like, how do you
22:12
make it seem like something that's already integrated
22:14
into their system, into what they're doing without
22:16
adding it onto the place? So districts, I think
22:19
they think it's important, but it's it's been
22:21
a difficult kind of game to figure out how to
22:24
actually do it with fidelity. Is there a is there
22:28
a skill that you see that is being overlooked
22:32
by most schools right now, like where they're
22:35
just not really giving it any thought, but it's
22:38
going too soon, like. all of a sudden become
22:41
very apparent that that's a skill that's needed.
22:45
I would say probably for me I think the biggest
22:47
thing is always communication. A lot of districts
22:49
do have like a communication or like teamwork
22:52
a part of their portrait graduate but what does
22:55
it actually mean to be an effective communicator?
22:57
What does it mean to be able to have critical
22:59
conversations? How can you create environments
23:01
to have critical conversations? How can you have
23:04
debates? How can you ensure that there's empathy
23:07
being held in communication as well. How do you
23:10
ensure that you're just able to present what
23:13
you have? Because you may have a lot of great
23:14
ideas, you may have a lot of great thoughts,
23:17
but how can you communicate that properly? I
23:19
think that's one of the most important pieces
23:20
because then that ties into your ability to critically
23:23
think. If you're able to communicate effectively,
23:25
that goes into your ability to make relationships,
23:28
that goes into your ability to collaborate with
23:30
others. So for me, I always feel like communication
23:32
is a big piece because it ties in all your skills
23:35
into one skill. Do you think that as you look
23:39
at AI and how AI can help certain skills, do
23:45
you feel like there's a different skill that
23:49
would be part of a portrait of a graduate that
23:52
AI can assist with? And maybe it's communication
23:56
that you mentioned, maybe it's not, but is there
24:00
something where you look at it and you're like,
24:02
well, With AI if schools have or if students
24:05
have a deficit in this durable skill Like this
24:08
is the one that AI could probably help the most
24:11
with That's a great question For me and this
24:16
could be a bit controversial. I would say it
24:19
would be Problem -solving just because Like if
24:25
you have a bit of background information or knowledge
24:27
on something, your AIs kind of spit something
24:29
out that's like completely wrong. You can communicate
24:31
back and forth with it and just like, hey, this
24:33
is not correct. Or you can dive really deep into
24:37
the topics that you wouldn't be able to dive
24:38
into previously, look at a synthesis of all their
24:41
information and research out there with additional
24:43
prompting, and really get to be able to solve
24:46
some problems that you may not have been able
24:47
to solve before in the past. So I would say problem
24:50
solving. And also like even such like simple
24:52
things as like, you know, if I I want to learn
24:54
a new recipe Like that's in ai can really help
24:57
me solve that problem of learning that new recipe
24:59
because they can give me step -by -step guides
25:01
and instructions on how to go about that as well
25:03
Uh, so I would actually say and argue that yeah,
25:06
I can help with a lot of problem solving that
25:08
Previously couldn't have been done before I've
25:12
actually seen something. I can't think of the
25:14
company that it was that was talking about this
25:16
but where if a company's hiring a new employee
25:20
and they're asking to interview them, they wanna
25:24
interview the candidate along with their AI agents
25:29
that they're going to use on the job. And I think
25:32
it's for exactly what you're saying is they want
25:34
to have the problems solved and regardless if
25:40
a human does it by themselves or if a human...
25:43
gets the assistance of the AI in order to get
25:46
to that point, you're still getting to that point.
25:49
A hundred percent, yeah. And I think there will
25:51
be more and more of that. And then again, it's
25:53
just like ensuring that if you're bringing like,
25:56
for example, like an agent or an AI to like the
25:58
interview process, like how do you ensure that
26:01
there's equitable representation in those conversations
26:04
so that there's not any like bias or stereotypes?
26:06
Because we know that there's been a discrepancy,
26:08
for example, like women employment or women pay
26:11
or the way women are being viewed at jobs or
26:13
other racialized groups as well. Excellent point.
26:17
Now I want to pivot here just a little bit here
26:19
too because I know you're also a big proponent
26:22
of game -based learning within the classroom
26:25
as well. And I know you have partnered with NACEF,
26:29
the National Esports Federation, to use AI to
26:32
help personalize esports -based curriculum. You
26:37
have a teacher that comes to you after you've
26:40
said that. How do you look at them? Maybe they're
26:42
a biology teacher and say, you want me to do
26:47
what in my class with the kids? Yeah, 100%. I
26:52
think there's a lot of esports concepts that
26:55
tie directly into curriculum, but educators aren't
26:58
always aware of those esports concepts. unless
27:02
they take the time to obviously learn it, right?
27:05
So for us, our whole goal is to make e -sports
27:07
more equitable and inclusive and provide access
27:10
to students. Because right now, e -sports is
27:12
being done in a lot of schools where they have
27:14
these huge labs, they have their gaming chairs,
27:18
these tournaments, these competitions. And NACEF
27:21
has created a great curriculum. But being able
27:24
to tie it in with your local state standards,
27:26
being able to personalize those resources for
27:28
students. Being able to just like even though
27:31
the relationship between like your curriculum
27:33
standard and eSports topics is it's a huge lift
27:36
So our goal was to okay. We have this vetted
27:38
eSports content. How can we automatically tie
27:40
to your curriculum standards? How do we ensure
27:42
you don't need to spend a whole bunch of money
27:44
purchasing all this eSports equipment? And then
27:46
how can we get students more engaged through
27:48
eSports because we know they love video games
27:50
and they love shell casting podcasting and a
27:54
lot of the concepts that happen in game like
27:56
for example like ELA like the hero's journey
27:59
is a great kind of way to fulfill some of your
28:01
ELA standards. Looking at biology, like genetics
28:04
and evolution in video games, like Pokemon, for
28:07
example, has evolution that happens all the time.
28:10
Rocket League has physics that happen all the
28:12
time. Podcasting, shell casting ties into a bunch
28:14
of ELA curriculum standards. Marketing, advertisement,
28:17
business, all those things. And those tie in
28:20
all with kind of developing skills, which is
28:22
related to your fourth year of graduate. So we
28:24
kind of saw this as a natural fit. And to some
28:26
of the work we're doing and we're still looking
28:28
to create more partnerships with kind of uh industry
28:31
experience or content experts where we can bring
28:34
in a lot of that Untraditional educational knowledge
28:37
that you wouldn't get in your classroom. Uh,
28:39
just because it's a lot to learn for educators
28:41
So try and take that lift off of them, but guest
28:43
who's more engaged Big shout out to to leo from
28:47
pokemon who david and I had the pleasure to talk
28:50
to while we were at isti um pokemon, uh had a
28:54
large Pikachu hanging above their booth inside
28:58
of the expo hall, which definitely drew a lot
29:00
of attention to the fact that they're starting
29:03
Pokemon clubs or they're encouraging the start
29:06
of Pokemon clubs and offering free resources
29:09
for students to get involved with. Pokemon gaming
29:15
and card playing that takes place after school.
29:17
I think to work on some of those skills like
29:19
you're talking about here, one, you know, offering
29:22
it free and encouraging students of all different
29:24
backgrounds definitely helps with that inclusivity
29:27
and the equity part of that. But I think the
29:30
other part of it that comes along with it too
29:32
are the experiences that the kids are having
29:34
with. collaboration and dealing with you know
29:39
compromising and managing different skills of
29:42
working with other people at the same time and
29:46
they're able to and the engagement level of it
29:48
right and they're you know with the idea that
29:51
they take those skills back into the classroom
29:53
and beyond where they can expand some of those
29:56
different things so it in that way do you think
29:59
it helps to unlock For students their potential
30:04
to complete different assignments in the regular
30:07
classroom. Oh a hundred percent Yeah, like for
30:09
sure like I know like like a lot of my friends
30:13
for example, like they still game till today
30:15
like, you know Like once you tie into their interest
30:18
in like things that they're interested in they
30:20
see like, okay Like this is how like this concept
30:22
is relevant in a real world real real world scenario
30:25
and increases engagement And I know nice F has
30:28
done a lot of studies as well to look at how
30:31
inputting an e -sports club in your school can
30:34
increase engagement and also decrease absenteeism
30:37
as well. I went to Comic Con last year and did
30:42
a panel, but there was another panel of another
30:46
school that was a juvenile court school system.
30:48
All the students were super divided, had separate
30:52
friend groups or whatever you want to call it
30:54
but then when it came to esports they all came
30:57
together they all became great friends because
30:58
they all had that common goal and the aspiration
31:00
of being able to win this competition and then
31:03
there's those friendships last beyond the classroom
31:05
and they're just super grateful to be engaged
31:07
and so and somewhere where they feel comfortable
31:09
and they feel like they're being heard and like
31:11
they feel represented in the in the curriculum
31:13
and content so i'm just like saying like You
31:15
know, I come and have six apples. Dave has two
31:17
apples like, you know, how much apples does that
31:20
equal? Like it becomes a lot more relevant and
31:22
engaging for them, for sure. Sure. So I mean,
31:28
you know, you you've been around to a lot of
31:31
conferences now. You you won the Canadian EdTech
31:33
startup of the year in twenty twenty one and
31:36
you've spoken at FTC, as you mentioned, like
31:38
you and I met there. You've been at ISTE, even
31:41
at ASU plus GSB. Let's talk a little bit about
31:45
like that hustle, right? Like, I mean, obviously,
31:48
like, you know, you've been doing some great
31:50
things. What's the unglamorous side of, you know,
31:53
moving around from spot to spot and booth to
31:56
booth and that kind of thing? Yeah, for sure.
31:59
So the way I look at it, when I was in university
32:03
college, I worked three jobs while doing full
32:06
time school. So, like, I feel super grateful
32:07
to be able to do what I do. But then there is
32:10
the side where you like start to kind of like
32:14
neglect your own like personal health in a sense
32:16
like if I'm doing a conference and I'm trying
32:18
to work on this like I'll spend all day at the
32:21
conference with like minimal food and let there's
32:23
like a food break and like not being able to
32:25
take care of yourself and then obviously like
32:26
the flight to time difference and like just coming
32:28
home being exhausted after those trips um I've
32:31
been just like the fear of rejection as well
32:34
is obviously a very real part as well um like
32:38
you probably talk to like maybe 100 200 people
32:41
and then you have like 10 people that get back
32:43
to you, which can obviously be discouraging until
32:45
you see back those 10 people and you see the
32:47
value of the relationships and the connections.
32:49
You realize it's not about the 100 people that
32:52
you're connecting with, it's about those one
32:53
or two connections that you really get. So I
32:55
think that's something I had to learn going throughout
32:58
that journey, like to be like, just be much more
33:01
intentional about like creating stronger relationships,
33:03
not trying to just like talk to everybody and
33:04
meet everybody and just actually learning about
33:07
their problems. I mean, I have a bunch of stories
33:10
about unglamorous trips. Like I've stayed in
33:13
the worst of the worst places. When we were first
33:15
starting this, I took a six month road trip across
33:17
the US with three bags. So you can imagine how
33:21
that went from like all the way from like California
33:23
to DC, to Texas, to Tennessee, to Pittsburgh,
33:27
to Utah. So just like being able to like learn
33:30
the different environments and how like everywhere
33:32
is kind of its own mini country is pretty interesting
33:34
as well and seeing similarities. And then also
33:37
just like seeing the warmth in people and developing
33:39
those connections, having people invite me to
33:42
their house for meals was like super cool. Like
33:45
I got to, the last ST I went to I think was in
33:49
Denver at State with Antonio Vihel, who would
33:52
probably be another great guest. I don't know
33:54
if you've had him yet from Aurora Public Schools,
33:55
director of innovation there. I've had a dinner
33:58
with Greg Bagby and like his wife and Cindy and
34:02
her partner as well. We played pickleball together
34:05
so. Yeah, I mean there are some times where it
34:08
is hard and like you have to stay in like a raggedy
34:10
place But like it's at the end of the day. It's
34:12
all good because it's great learning experience
34:14
You're building great connections and is better
34:16
than working in a meat factory while doing full
34:18
-time university Yeah, yeah, it's it's definitely
34:22
it was good for us to see we you know talking
34:25
to so many people so I get the relationship aspect
34:27
aspect of it and we had to hang out with Greg
34:29
for a little bit so but As you and even even
34:35
in coast and we hung out and one of the cool
34:37
things about you is that you know Like you come
34:39
you came and hang out hung out with us And then
34:42
I was like are you gonna stick around for like
34:44
well, I gotta take a call real quick I gotta
34:46
go on a call and and I'll catch up with you later
34:48
or whatever So but we always appreciated, you
34:51
know, you stop my to hang out a little bit. So
34:54
But as far as your your relationship with your
34:57
partner Henry he's been described as the guy
35:00
coding in the dark room keeping the whole thing
35:02
running as you're as you're kind of going across
35:04
the country right so what what does that partnership
35:07
actually look like what what kind of keeps you
35:09
guys together just building the company yeah
35:12
i think for us um we're really good friends um
35:17
like beyond anything before even like having
35:19
uh that business partnership is like we're pretty
35:22
much i would say like best friends uh and Through
35:26
that, we're able to talk much more authentically
35:28
with each other. We can be critical of each other's
35:29
thoughts. We can question and push each other.
35:32
Um, on a daily basis, like we're always interacting,
35:35
communicating. If I have meetings or feedback
35:37
that I'm getting, like, I'm always just sending
35:38
it to him right away. Deposit that to like kind
35:41
of a list of feedback that we've got in it. And
35:43
he's making that real within the product itself.
35:46
So one of the big things we like to pride ourselves,
35:48
we say we're young and we're dumb. uh so we'd
35:51
rather just listen uh than being able to just
35:53
like speak and think we know what we want because
35:55
we did try that at the beginning uh we did try
35:58
it just like building something we thought was
36:00
cool would be fun and innovative but then we
36:02
learned like about all the nuances within education
36:04
all the um fulfillments that educators need how
36:08
you need to align with the strategic plan and
36:10
all that so i'd say for us it's like me i'm more
36:13
of the person that gathers the information i
36:15
presented to henry and the best way shape or
36:18
form that I can, as we communicate on it, critically
36:20
think on it, and then see where it can land within
36:23
our roadmap, or even if it does land in our roadmap
36:25
or not. And then obviously having those like
36:28
critical business conversations, like, are we
36:29
headed in the right direction? How do we know
36:32
we're headed in the right direction? What validation
36:34
do we have? What experts can we draw upon when
36:37
like, you know, me or him or don't have that
36:39
sort of like perplexity or like Chad GPT doesn't
36:42
have that sort of like, how can we get those
36:44
real world connections? That's where I'll kind
36:45
of tap into my network. I say like hey like you
36:48
know you need to go talk to Dave or Jeremy or
36:50
Greg or like Mark or whoever it may be so it's
36:54
kind of like he's kind of in the in the dark
36:57
room but like I'm still like feeding him through
37:00
that. Yeah I think you just gave a great roadmap
37:05
for how David and I try to work together here
37:07
too like you know one of us you know has to be
37:10
in that dark room while the other one is out
37:12
there being the face of the organization. Yeah,
37:17
and I'm kidding we're both you know I think we
37:19
I think we've kind of do a lot of the similar
37:21
things that you you talked about you and Henry
37:23
do you know in in that collaborative process
37:26
and how important that is to To kind of be on
37:29
the same page at the same time and kind of keep
37:31
things moving forward But let's shift gears here
37:35
to a little bit more of a, I'm asking you to
37:38
put on more of a futurist or a visionary type
37:41
of a hat here. As you look towards the scene
37:45
of the educational landscape that. that is out
37:48
there. And you think about what could the portrait
37:51
of a graduate, what can AI do in that space to
37:55
help make education more accessible, you know,
37:59
to bring about some low cost solutions and genuinely
38:04
make AI useful for every teacher and student.
38:09
For sure. I think kind of, and if I understand
38:13
correctly, kind of look at the future outlook
38:14
of education, right? Like where are we? I think
38:17
CTE is going to be more deeply embedded within
38:20
schools. I don't think that's going to go away
38:22
anywhere. And I think AIs could be a great support
38:25
for those CTE programs as well. I anticipate
38:29
more and more states by 2035 will have a portrait
38:32
graduate. California, they don't have a state
38:36
-level portrait graduate, but they have some
38:38
policies and legislation that's being developed
38:40
for it. As I mentioned in 2029 New York has a
38:44
portrait graduate requirement and there's already
38:47
thousands of districts independently kind of
38:49
implementing it So I would say like the two biggest
38:51
areas that will grow is kind of like CTE and
38:54
POG related movements Apprenticeships will also
38:57
be continuously growing And then I think micro
39:00
credentials will be something that will grow
39:02
I'm just not sure if that's something that will
39:03
grow within the k -12 space or kind of an external
39:07
world and it's also be interested to see how
39:10
higher education reacts to it there could be
39:13
some changes maybe by 2040 of like looking at
39:15
graduation standards how can it tie in portrait
39:17
graduate skills and portfolios and things like
39:20
that as well it does somewhat but a lot of it
39:23
does heavily tie into your academic performance
39:25
um so i think that's kind of the timeline i mentally
39:30
have my eyes like 2029 new york's gonna have
39:32
this huge portrait graduate rollout 2035 other
39:35
states will be caught up 2040 a higher end will
39:39
start to catch up as well and maybe change some
39:41
of the requirements. At the same time, micro
39:43
-credentials will continuously grow in the background
39:45
as well. Badging, certifications, all those things
39:47
will become of the most importance. As in hopefully,
39:52
by like 2045, we can just move away from... grades
39:56
and we can just look at CompC development. That'd
39:59
be a dream world, but I know it's a bit ambitious
40:01
with our credit system. You know, it's hard and
40:04
I get where you're coming from from the micro
40:06
credentialing perspective here. And you know,
40:08
I think it is. Higher Ed is definitely an easier
40:12
place, I think, to bring that about. And I think
40:15
there's also kind of where I think there's a
40:18
lot of opportunity there with the micro credentialing
40:21
is. If you think about a student, if you want
40:25
to talk about New York and a student that's going
40:26
to graduate in 2029, 2030 with that portrait
40:30
of a graduate, and just think about all of the
40:33
different changes that are going to take place
40:35
within their lifetime, and along with those changes,
40:38
how many different career changes are students
40:42
going to need to be able to prepare for? And
40:45
is there a space for community colleges, vocational
40:49
tech? technical schools, even four years, typical
40:53
universities, to be able to offer some sort of,
40:56
you know, continuous lifelong learning credential
41:00
that someone could receive on top of, you know,
41:03
oh, I got a teaching degree in history, but you
41:05
know, now I can add this credential to it that
41:09
now allows me to be able to do a job in a CTE
41:13
space that I hadn't considered before. And then
41:16
so I really like the direction that you're going
41:18
with that. But I agree with you. How does that
41:22
transfer into the K -12 space? And I see as the
41:28
problem, you can correct me or give me a different
41:31
perspective on this. I see as part of the problem
41:32
is everyone... I'm generalizing here. Almost
41:37
everyone graduates from high school, so therefore
41:40
they're experts in what K -12 education is because
41:43
they went through it. They're not used to a different
41:47
system that's trying to creep into that space.
41:51
Yeah, I think the biggest thing with the ideal
41:56
place where I would like to see education is
41:58
where it helps you find your purpose. that you
42:01
feel within your life, and then that helps you
42:03
kind of create pathways and resources that align
42:06
with your purpose of what you see, whether that
42:09
be micro credentials. One of the big things I've
42:11
always wanted to see in schools, and I think
42:13
there's like maybe one or two school districts
42:15
that are implementing it from all the ones I've
42:16
talked to, is an accelerator program. A lot of
42:19
post -secondary schools have accelerator programs
42:21
for like young entrepreneurs and young youth,
42:23
but being able to like have that within K to
42:25
12 school districts to encourage students to
42:27
become more entrepreneurs, because we know that
42:29
there is going to be a shift in the job market
42:31
as well. But at the same time, it will be easier
42:34
for any student to be able to start a business
42:36
with the assistance of AI than it ever was before.
42:41
So I would say being able to have that holistic
42:44
environment of helping students achieve their
42:46
purpose, helping them draw to their interests,
42:50
and making just the whole K -12 space be more
42:53
relatable for them is going to be super important
42:55
moving forward. Alright, we appreciate you taking
43:03
the time to talk with us We're gonna get into
43:05
our lightning around here and I'm gonna kick
43:08
things off So you can do you know the one -word
43:11
response if you want to or you can do oh Take
43:13
it wherever you want to But so before factors
43:17
right as you're growing up What did you want
43:20
to be like? What were you thinking about? I don't
43:23
know when you're in your teens or you know, take
43:25
it wherever you want Yeah, I won't play that
43:27
game Oh, I would say I didn't accomplish that
43:31
dream. But I am playing in my I'm still playing
43:34
basketball today in the men's league and we won
43:36
a championship last year and going for a two
43:38
feet. So yeah. Yeah. Well, you didn't you didn't
43:40
accomplish it yet. Right. You're not yet. Exactly.
43:44
There you go. It's like that Peyton Manning motivational
43:48
thing. And the guy says, I want to be an NFL
43:50
quarterback. Oh, yeah. Let's go with that. I
43:54
mean, the Timberwolves are still looking for
43:56
some players is all I'm saying. So. I play point
43:59
card and I don't think I'm better than LaMelo.
44:05
If you think back to your early days and while
44:10
you're still going to school, you mentioned you
44:11
had three jobs at one time, but what was the
44:13
first job that you ever had? Packaging a UPS
44:19
truck for deliveries in grade 11 during the summer
44:23
break. Was it like Tetris you had to like finally
44:26
help it? Yeah Yeah, I was in a truck a big truck
44:30
alone for a couple hours every day All right
44:35
favorite TV show or movie right now I'll go with
44:40
favorite TV show just because it's relevant and
44:42
everyone is not everybody but House of the Dragon
44:45
I've been finding it's really good the Game of
44:47
Thrones spin -off That's what I've been watching
44:50
favorite movie is probably coach Carter Mm -hmm
44:56
How about the best meal you've ever had or your
44:59
go -to favorite type of food So if I'm in San
45:02
Diego, everybody knows this I love La Porta the
45:06
wet burrito there. It's a one pound burrito It's
45:08
probably my favorite place if you're in Toronto.
45:11
There's this really good veggie place called
45:13
Zen's garden It's kind of like Buddhist food
45:15
Tempe is even that's my go -to And then in DC
45:20
I have a really other I'm a vegetarian. So I
45:22
have a lot of good veggie spots A place called
45:25
pop house really good and then I've been getting
45:27
into vegan soul food as well really good as well
45:32
Cool. What's something people would be surprised
45:34
to know about you? I would say maybe that I started
45:42
this business when I was 23 and Yeah, we started
45:48
off EI Amplified slash Factors Education at the
45:51
age of 23. I'm 28 now, turning 29. And the other
45:56
thing, I guess, more surprising about the organization
45:59
is that Henry is actually 23 now. So I guess
46:03
our age. So, okay, you've known this one is coming
46:09
because we talked about it before we came on
46:11
air. But David and I were hosting a conference.
46:15
You're going to be our keynote speaker. You're
46:17
walking out onto that stage to try to get the
46:20
audience ready to have a great day of learning.
46:22
What's going to be your walk up song? So I've
46:26
been thinking about this and I wanted it to be
46:27
a bit different. It's going to be a Punjabi hip
46:29
hop song. One of my favorites of all time against
46:32
all odds by AP Dylan. Have to look that one up
46:38
Unless it's like a Genesis Phil Collins kind
46:42
of a spin -off of against all odds that states
46:45
me though. That's like back to the 80s I'll text
46:48
it. I'll text it to you. Perfect Yeah, we'll
46:52
get we'll get it to add to the Spotify playlist
46:53
as well. So Um, all right, um, so the this or
46:57
that is our next thing here. So rapid -fire Can
47:01
only choose one. All right, so early bird or
47:03
night owl Recently I've been an early bird. Okay
47:09
road trip or flight? Road trip. Which you said
47:17
you've done plenty already. Like you've done
47:19
plenty of both. So cook at home or eat out? Cook
47:23
at home. Text or call? Call, for sure. Mountains
47:29
or beach? Mountains. And then the last one to
47:33
leave the party or first one out the door? Last
47:37
one to leave the party. Well, I'm going to again,
47:42
we want to just really thank you for your time
47:44
here. But before we let you go, can you give
47:47
us a or do you want to take some time here and,
47:50
you know, give us an idea of what's next for
47:52
factors? And for you, if you've got any events
47:54
that are coming up or things that you'd like
47:57
to promote, you know, we'll give you the we'll
47:59
give you the space. Yeah, for sure. I will be
48:02
at IEI soup tank in about two weeks in Utah.
48:06
So if there's anybody in Utah, I would definitely
48:08
love to connect. Some of the next things coming
48:10
up for factors is being able to measure durable
48:13
skills and present that in a shareable dashboard
48:16
for a district admin to be able to share with
48:18
the board for their fourth year of graduate alignment.
48:22
As in anyone in Pittsburgh, we'll also be in
48:24
Pittsburgh for September for the milk and pen
48:28
head tech competition. Otherwise, I'm on LinkedIn.
48:31
You can find me. I'm in Ceota from Factors Education.
48:34
And my email is also amen at factors .world if
48:37
anyone is interested in chatting. You can see
48:40
a lot of updates on my LinkedIn of some of the
48:42
work we've been doing, where we will be heading,
48:46
and where we're planning on going. That's great.
48:49
And we'll make sure to link some of those in
48:51
the show notes as well. But thank you once again.
48:53
We look forward to seeing you again soon. 100%.
48:55
I really appreciate you both. And this was a
48:57
great conversation. I really enjoyed it. Thanks
48:59
for listening to Integrate This. Want to take
49:04
your learning further? Head over to our YouTube
49:07
channel for quick tutorials, deep dives, and
49:10
more ed tech tips you can use right away. Don't
49:13
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49:16
every Thursday on Apple, Spotify, or wherever
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you get your podcasts. Until next time, keep
49:23
exploring, keep innovating, and keep integrating
49:27
this.