Latest / The Partial Historians / Episode 157 - From Delphi, With Love
Transcript
- Dr Rad 0:00 Hi listeners. Before we get into today's episode, Dr G and I would just like to mention that we will once again be presenting at the podcast event of the year, Intelligence Speech in 2025 this event will be taking place on February 8, starting at 9am Eastern Standard Time. The tickets are $30 and are available at intelligentspeechonline.com this year's topic is deception. So we will be hearing about all sorts of fake history. And historical deception seems timely. Last year, we had a blast talking about Augustus failed attempts to secure an air and we're looking forward to presenting on something similarly Imperial and scandalous this year. We hope that you can join us and all your other favorite podcasters at Intelligent Speech, and now on with the episode you Music. Welcome to the partial historians. Dr G 1:13 We explore all the details of ancient Rome, Dr Rad 1:18 Everything from political scandals, the love affairs, the battles wage, and when citizens turn against each other, I'm Dr rad, and Dr G 1:28 I'm Dr G. We consider Rome as the Romans saw it, by reading different authors from the ancient past and comparing their stories. Dr Rad 1:38 Join us as we trace the journey of Rome from the founding of the city. Hello and welcome to a brand new episode of the partial historians. I am one of your hosts, Dr rad, and Dr G 1:59 I am Dr G, and I'm super excited to be here because we're about to talk about 397 BCE, indeed, Dr Rad 2:09 we are Dr G as we trace the story of room from the founding of the city. But before we get to 397 Can we please quickly recap what happened in 398, Dr G 2:22 look, there was some sort of lake. It rose up. I think that might be all I recall. Yeah, no, it was important. I didn't have a lot of evidence, but I think I had some things that suggested that, you know, we had a dangerous time. There was some reading of some portents, one of the people from they revealed the nature of the portent to the Romans, which then prompted the Romans to take some action to make sure the portent worked out in their favor. Dr Rad 2:51 You are more correct than you know. Dr G, so we're right in the middle of this lengthy siege of they a rival Etruscan city to Rome, that even though we've got this very epic story, is actually not that far away. But we understand why the Romans want to conquer it. It's powerful. It's on their doorstep. It's from a rival peoples they want it for their close to home. Yeah, and it's been dragging on for a while. It's been causing internal tension in Rome over issues like military pay and military service. So the quicker this is wrapped up, the better. And last episode, we did indeed have a man from ve, potentially an older man, a soothsayer of some kind, being kidnapped, and he revealed that the only way Rome was going to be able to conquer the city of a was if they figured out how to deal with the excessive water in this particular lake that you mentioned. Dr G 3:52 Now, intriguing. Now, I have to say, one of our Patreon supporters got in touch with us about this, to discuss the way that there is some evidence from a volcanology perspective, that's right, or the flooding of these kinds of volcanic lakes from volcanic activity that happens below them that then pushes the water up above the line that it usually sits at. So if you've got a lot of magma moving around under the surface, all of a sudden, you might get a situation which appears preternatural, but is actually the result of volcanic activity. And I loved the fact that they reached out with this detail, because I am not a volcanologist. I am an ancient historian. I was just baffled by this, like, Dr Rad 4:38 what are you bringing to the show, if not volcanology, get out of here! Dr G 4:42 Charm and good looks. Thank you. Dr Rad 4:43 Well, that would make so much sense, and I agree with you. So glad that someone reached out with this detail. Because we are, of course, talking about the album like which is seemingly not connected to they, which is in completely the other direction. However, sign. Come from? Whence signs come? Dr, G, when the gods choose to speak, it may not be geographically appropriate, and that makes sense, because the Alban Mons was an active volcano up until around 1150 BC. I believe which, which might explain why there's not a lot of people living this area until just after that. So that kind of makes sense. You know, the volcano stuff, it adds up. Dr G 5:29 It does. So I think that's an exciting detail that adds into this. Because you're like, Okay, that sounds like a really bizarre story on the surface, but there could be some natural phenomena that is feeding into what is some very unusual natural observations that are happening from the side of they and the portents that are suggested as a result. Dr Rad 5:50 Yeah. So thank you very much. Patreon, listener for your volcanology tip and with that, Dr, G, I think We might be ready to dive into 397, BCE, Oh, all right. Dr G, 397 BCE, please tell me. Who are we dealing with as magistrates? This year, Dr G 6:33 our players, the magistrates, we have a whole suite of military tribunes with consular power, and they're all patricians, Dr Rad 6:44 back in the saddle again for the ride through the town with the elites. Yeah, Dr G 6:51 look, you can have some successes in your siege under a plebeian leadership. But is that enough to keep them in power? No people who have always had power want it back, and they want it back yesterday, so Dr Rad 7:05 yesterday and forever. Dr, G, yeah, Dr G 7:07 look so people we have in the role. We've got some names that are going to sound awfully familiar, and I think most of these people, by and large, have held positions before, or if not, they come from families that are going to be well known, well well heard amongst listeners, sure. So we have Lucius Iulius Vopisci. Dr Rad 7:31 Ulis, yep, I definitely recognize that name, and I reconsider 90% of the people listening to this show Dr G 7:38 like a Julii in power. What are the chances? Previously, a military Tribune in 401 so really, quite recently, Lucius Furius Medullinus, Dr Rad 7:50 yeah, yeah, Dr G 7:52 a Furius back in the saddle. Previously, consul in 413, and 409 and previously, military tribunein 407, 405, but most importantly, 398, just the previous year. Methinks, Dr Rad 8:08 you've got a bit of a monopoly on power. Dr G 8:11 He certainly seems to hold a lot of position. So he seems to be quite popular new kid on the block, but very familiar name, Lucius Sergius Fidenas, Dr Rad 8:23 yes, descended, I presume, from a branch of a family that's had something to do with the conquest of Fidenae, one would assume, yes, Dr G 8:34 following up, also new to the role Aulus Postumius Albinus Regillensis, new Dr Rad 8:40 man, but perhaps very familiar name. Dr G 8:43 Yeah, we're like, is that a new guy? Because that sounds like somebody we've talked about before. I agree. How many, how many, how many Postumii are there? We;ve then got Publius Cornelius, Maluginensis. Dr Rad 8:58 I hate that name. Dr G 9:00 Also first turn around the block, and then Aulus Manlius Vulso Capitolinus, who was also previously military tribune in 405, and 4020, okay. I do have some mention that there are some legates or some ambassadors, indeed, but apparently Livy talks about them, so I don't have their names. Dr Rad 9:21 Oh well, okay, I have their names so I can go through the little list, and then we'll see how they come up in our story. We've got Cnaeus Cornelius Cossus. Now we think that's his name, who's a patrician, previously military Tribune with consular power in 406, 404 and 401 and then we've got Publius Licinius Calvus Esquilinus, previously military Tribune in 400 BC. We've then got Lucius Valerius Potitus, and he has been military Tribune with consular power in 414 406, 403, 401, and 398, Dr G 10:03 somebody's popular at high school. Yeah. Dr Rad 10:05 Now that's, that's one set. Oh, yeah, Dr G 10:09 there are more sets. Yeah. Well, this is Dr Rad 10:11 the thing. There's a bit of confusion about, I think, these positions. So we may be dealing instead with Caius Valerius Potitus. Yeah. Consul in 410, military Tribune in 415, and 404 Kaeso Fabius Ambustus, military Tribune with consular power in 410, 404 and 401 or we might be dealing with a Numerius Fabius Ambustus. Dr G 10:43 Oh, okay, now that that we've hit the Ambustii, yeah, in this list, I'm like, wait a minute. I had these people listed down for the previous year, but apparently, maybe some of them are ongoing in their ambassadorial Yeah. I Dr Rad 10:59 think there's a bit of confusion. There's a bit of confusion. There's definitely a bit of confusion happening around these Ambassador legate people. All right, Dr G 11:08 okay. They're still there, still hanging around. They are Dr Rad 11:11 listed in Broughton, and therefore I accept that they were there. Dr G 11:15 No fair enough. So when we're talking about legates at this time period, it's basically a delegation. You could be given any kind of task. It's whatever the military tribunes or the Senate decide needs to be done. So it's not like they hold a specific military position. I mean, you do get military legates later, but you could be asked to do any task that's administrative in nature, that is supportive of the Roman state. Yeah. So whatever that is, and I'm probably about to hear about it for the first time, Dr Rad 11:47 well, I think, I think the reason why there's a bit of overlap is that we, of course, had some legits legging it to see the Oracle at Delphi in the previous year. I would maybe implying that maybe they're still traveling at this point in time that might have something to do with it. Dr G 12:05 Are you telling me it's not that fast to travel all the way to Delphi okay, it's Dr Rad 12:09 bit of a journey. It's a bit of a journey. All right. Dr, G, you ready? Therefore to jump into 397, now that we kind of know who we're dealing with, Dr G 12:18 I'm excited to find out what happens for sure? Yep. Dr Rad 12:22 Okay, so we have a new enemy on the horizon for Rome in this year, the Tarquinenses. Dr G 12:33 Oh, dear. Yeah, these the inhabitants of Tarquinii. This Dr Rad 12:37 is to do with the area of Tarquinii, yes. So we're talking about an Etruscan peoples, yes. Now they notice that Rome is dealing with a lot of other enemies at this point in time. So not only do they have the siege at they which is ongoing and they, of course, has by this time, being joined by neighboring peoples, the Falerr and people from Capena. And then we've also got them fighting the Volsci who were contesting occupation of Anxur. We've talked about that a few times. That's been tossed backwards and forwards between the Romans and the Volscians like a hot potato. And then we've also got the Aequians who are engaged in attacking the Roman colony at Labici, oh, Dr G 13:25 dear. It sounds like the Romans have got enemies on every single side. Dr Rad 13:29 When don't they talk to G, when don't they this is Dr G 13:33 a particularly robust group of everybody that they've really ever encountered, not having anything nice to say about them and deciding that attacking is worthwhile. So the Volsci and the Aequians, sort of to the south and the south east, the Falsicans, the Capenates and the people of they to the north, and the Tarquinii also to the north. It's a pretty big sweep of war on two fronts and multiple enemies on both fronts, and Dr Rad 14:03 just when you thought that Rome couldn't take anymore. Dr, G, I'm gonna add a smattering of internal problems. Uh, oh yeah, we're talking, of course, about the patricians and the plebeians. Dr G 14:15 Well, Color me surprised. What are they up to now? Oh, Dr Rad 14:19 well, you know, they always have these ongoing issues, don't they? I mean, we're in the conflict of the orders, and we will be for quite some time now. Dr G 14:28 Oh boy, Dr Rad 14:29 it couldn't be really more problematic in Rome right now. So the people who are the Tarquinenses are right on the money in saying that Rome has its hands full. Now, if I were being historical about this. Dr, G, I might want to point out that there are some eerie parallels between events from this year at another year, which we haven't actually covered yet, which is 388, BCE, oh, okay, Dr G 14:55 that's a very close year to have as a parallel, but I'll allow it. Yeah. Dr Rad 15:00 I think it's just that historians have definitely noticed that there are some interesting overlaps in that. We also have war with the Tarquinii. We've also got Camillus showing up in that year. We've also got an attack on the Aequians. It's just some interesting crossovers there, which may or may not be coincidental. Dr G 15:22 This might explain why my evidence is such a mess. Because there is some evidence that I have that I think goes with a later year, but could possibly be connected with this one. And I think for now, I'm just going to leave it until later, and whenever we get to the episode where I think it belongs. But yes, there was some confusion, even with the small amount of things I have available to me as evidence right now about where things go in terms of the timeline. Yes, Dr Rad 15:49 exactly, yeah. So basically, the tar quinnenzis, they decide they're going to just dabble in some raiding whilst Rome is too busy to really pay attention. They totally believe that the Romans are either going to just ignore the attacks as they didn't have the capacity to address it, or if they decided to deal with it, they wouldn't be sending their best men, and therefore might be easily defeated or dealt with. I Dr G 16:15 see. Okay, so it's a raid of opportunity. Dr Rad 16:19 It is definitely now, the Romans were not necessarily particularly worried by this raiding, because, of course, come on, they're wrong. They're way too awesome to worry about such minor problems. However, it's the manners, the etiquette, that is at stake here. Dr G, it is an outrageous and unprovoked attack. How very dare you. Is basically their response to these people. Dr G 16:47 How rude any warning. Yes, exactly. Dr Rad 16:51 It's just, it's just not the way that we do cricket. Yeah, can't Dr G 16:57 you see, I'm busy with a whole bunch of other wars. You could at least send a letter to warn us we were about to do this kind Dr Rad 17:04 of as predicted. The Romans indeed did not put much effort into their preparation for dealing with this new and unexpected enemy. But they also didn't hesitate to deal with this situation. Aulus Postumius and Lucius Iulius. They weren't able to hold a regular levy because the tribunes of the plebs are named, prevented one. So instead, they set out with a volunteer force totally made up of anyone who had been talked into signing up. And they decided to travel through car A and managed to surprise this new enemy as they were journeying home happily with their stolen booty in their backpacks. Dr G 17:49 Wow. Okay, so I think the most impressive thing here is that there was anybody left in Rome who would volunteer go on a party when they're in the middle of so many wars. And the reason why the tribune of the plebs are probably trying to prevent the levy is because the people, by and large, do not want to be levied anymore. No, Dr Rad 18:08 who is, I agree with you, who is left to levy? Dr G 18:11 Yeah. Who are these people? Yeah. Is it the young patricians who are like, it's time for me to show my masculinity out in the field? Yeah. Is Dr Rad 18:19 it children? Is it the elderly? Dr G 18:23 I don't know. Volunteers, Goodness me. Dr Rad 18:26 But of course, because these people are totally beneath the Romans, the Romans managed to kill a lot of them. I mean, it is surprise attack, to be fair, and they managed to take back all the booty that had been stolen from them and headed back to Rome. Wow. Dr G 18:41 Okay, so on some level, I suppose this could just be read as a standard surprise attack, but I wonder if this is also something where Livy is now trying to build a narrative of Etruscan decline, because interesting. So the Tarquinii are one of the Etruscan peoples, and we know that they is not in a great situation. They haven't lost this siege yet. But watch out, everybody, spoilers. Dr Rad 19:13 Yes, it could be definitely a bit of an indication of what is about to come spoilers. Yes, so the Romans then have a very amusing situation to me, which we've spoken of often, Dr G, which is where they basically put everything out in the open, and they say, Come and get your stuff. You got two days. Oh, Dr G 19:31 okay, so is this like a is this a booty situation? Yeah, Dr Rad 19:36 because I take him back, basically everything that had been taken in this, in this initial attack, has been taken back in the reverse surprise attack. And so they come home with all this stuff. And stupidly, the Romans have not put their name on everything in black texture. And so they just put it all out and they say, right, you got two days. Everybody and anything that's left on the third day is going. To be sold under the spear, and the money raised will be split between the soldiers that served in this surprise attack. Selling something under the spear means a spear would sort of be set up to as like an advertisement saying, Come and get it, and it would be essentially a public auction. Intriguing. Dr G 20:17 Now I wonder if there would ever be anything left, I feel like the onus would be on. The priority would be to take as much stuff as possible, particularly if you were involved in the raid. Because what if there was nothing left at the end for that auction to raise money for yourself? That would suck. Yeah, this, this does sound like a bizarre set of maneuvers. You know, there Dr Rad 20:42 might be an odd shoe doesn't have, Dr G 20:46 like I see that leather vest, but I could make one better myself. Yeah, take that rubbish home. Etruscan rubbish. No. Well, so Dr Rad 20:54 anyway, so that's what happens. That's a little bit obviously of Roman success, which is just as well, because as for the rest of the Roman campaigns, it's not going that well. Dr, g Now, don't get me wrong, the Romans are definitely not losing their other campaigns, but they're certainly not winning. It's basically a stalemate just all around. Ah, Dr G 21:15 well, that's tough times, isn't it? Not making any progress, just sort of waiting it out, and it's the grind of war. It Dr Rad 21:23 is. It is so the Romans feel that they're stuck in this situation. They no longer feel that they're going to be getting any help from humans. We need to turn to the divine. Dr, G, and wouldn't you know it? It's right about now that those legates slash ambassadors returned from the Delphic Dr G 21:43 Oracle. Oh, good timing, guys, Dr Rad 21:47 exactly. Now they did have that soothsayer, the elderly soothsayer that had been kidnapped from they, who told them how to deal with the rising waters in the Alban Lake, and that unless they dealt with that, they would never triumph over they. But naturally, because he's from the enemy, they're in little bits and submissions that he might be trying to throw them off course. And they wanted verification. The Delphic Oracle says exactly the same thing as the old man has said. So now they have corroboration. Of course, being an Oracle, it says it in a much, much more wordy Oracle, e sort of way the the meaning is essentially the same, I Dr G 22:23 suppose, yes. I mean the famously, these oracles could be misinterpreted. So I hope this one is clearer than most Dr Rad 22:30 well. Interestingly, some historians, of course, have looked into this oracle, and it does apparently stem from something that has been translated from the Greek, and the prophecy is thought to be one that isn't really an original Oracle from Delphi, but one of these ones that had sort of popped up in the late Republic and was reported to be an Oracle from Delphi. Oh, I Dr G 23:00 see, okay, the way that, I mean, yeah, okay, yeah. So we're dealing with a bit of a sort of an anachronistic sort of retrojection back into this, at least Dr Rad 23:10 in the wording, yeah. I mean, the meaning might have, you know, always been there. But yes, the way that it's worded, I believe, hmm, Dr G 23:17 I think this is a really interesting move, on the behalf of the Romans to be like, we need to put our faith in not any sort of soothsayer necessarily, or even local members of the sipper lines, for instance, but we need to travel all the way to Delphi to get an answer. This might be indicative of just how under the pump the Romans feel in this moment, with this ongoing siege, that they're like, We really need the big guns for this one. But it is an interesting sense in which we can understand Rome as being part of that broader Mediterranean world. They're not just relying on their own people. They're certainly not just relying on the Etruscans, and they're willing to travel quite vast distances in order to get some sort of divine insight into their local problems, Dr Rad 24:04 and now the Romans feel obliged to give the Delphic Oracle a very generous gift once the war was entirely over. So that's their future intention. Ah, Dr G 24:16 yes, okay, I look forward to this because I think I've read a little bit about this, but it doesn't happen this year. I'm like, No, this Dr Rad 24:22 is just a an intention. They're like, mental note. Put it in the diary, guys. Once we finish dealing with this situation, we better send them something really nice. We'll get them a box of lint chocolates. We want top quality. We want foreign champagne. The whole works. Dr G 24:38 All right, so prepare yourselves for a hamper. Priestess of Apollo, given Dr Rad 24:44 that we are currently recording this at around Christmas time, I feel like there's going to be all sorts of strange things in this hamper as well that you would never normally eat, but somehow turn up in hampers. Dr G 24:55 Yeah, you're like, Oh, that's really intriguing. Yeah, some Dr Rad 24:59 sort of. Pate, some sort of spread made of something that you never thought could be turned into a spread. Dr G 25:04 Well, you're like, thank you. Dr Rad 25:08 Now, of course, all of a sudden, the guy that they had kidnapped from they the soothsayer that had told them ages ago about this whole lake situation is very respected in urban society, because wouldn't you know what he was telling the truth this whole time. Dr G 25:24 Can you imagine his fate, if that he had not been corroborated by the Delphic Oracle, would have been death very quickly. So I'm glad for his sake, but that it's turned out well, it's Dr Rad 25:35 I think this is where your version of events makes more sense than mine in this particular instance, because you highlighted that in your account, this guy was tortured for information, whereas in my account, he seems to very willingly just give information up. Either way, I definitely would have been suspicious. Torture means he might have just been saying it to make the pain stop. The other way around, it seems a little quick that he just suddenly turns against his own people and tells the Romans what they need to know. Dr G 26:03 Where's the sense of loyalty? What's in it for him? Dr Rad 26:06 Yes, the military tribunes, Cornelius and Postumius, want to use the soothsayer to take care of this whole album Lake overflowing situation, especially because now the gods are involved, they feel they have to appease the gods by taking care of that particular situation. Sounds Dr G 26:21 reasonable, all right, so they're going to get a workforce onto that one. Dr Rad 26:25 Now they also find that there's been an offense against the gods, because there was a problem with some of the magistrates. Dr G 26:36 Oh dear. Dr Rad 26:38 Turns out that there had been a problem with the election. Oh, okay, it had been improperly proclaimed, these Latin games and a sacrifice conducted on the Alban Mount. Now this is probably referring to a Latin festival that of Juppiter Latiarius. This is probably what it's referring to here, which was something that is associated with the Latin League. It was held every year. And after this festival, that's where there'd be a sacrifice, and there'd be the proclamation of new consuls or military tribunes at this time. So it seems that somewhere in here, at this very important moment of proclamation, something had gone wrong. Dr G 27:24 Okay, so I think this is one of those things about Ancient Rome which is off overlooked, particularly for the Republic, but is super important, which is the way in which their politics is very much tied in to their relationship with the gods at all times. So the way that things are pronounced, the way that things are said, all of those ritual formulations, are extremely important in order to get right for things to be proper in the eyes of the gods, from a Roman perspective. So if something has gone wrong in any of that stuff, and they come back around and they realize this is a huge problem. So does this mean that they disband this whole group of, like, military tributes we're Dr Rad 28:10 getting there. We're getting I'm just gonna add okay to what you just said. I think it's also, I think you're totally right about that, but I think it's also potentially a problem with the sacrifice, like, it sounds like a great big stuff up on their part. Dr G 28:22 Oh, a problem with the sacrifice. Do they have details about what went wrong with the sacrifice? Dr Rad 28:27 No, just says there was a problem, a problem Dr G 28:31 with a sacrifice. Yeah, all right, I'm very intrigued by this. Yeah. Please continue. Yeah. Dr Rad 28:36 Well, and I just thought I'd also mention because people might not know much about this. Indeed, I don't know much about this because I'm not really into religion as much as you are. But this particular gathering, this festival, it's very ancient. As far as we can tell. It goes back a really, really long way. It's held, funnily enough, on the Alban mount, which we keep talking about, this previously volcanic mountain, which has now become such a focus of so many of our stories. And it is something where various Latin people come together, and it's where you can see this commonality between them in terms of the language that they speak in terms of the gods that they worship, potentially also the way that their societies are organized. You know, we offer, you know, we've often questioned, do they have exactly the same political setup as the Romans? Because sometimes it seems like the Roman sources assume that they do. Maybe they do, Dr G 29:36 maybe they do. There has got to be some sort of cultural connection. You would assume, even if things are run slightly differently in each place, that shared language and a shared understanding of the gods that need to be looked after and appeased is a sense of commonality of purpose, even if there are small nuances of differences in how each one is run. Politically when they go back home, yeah? Now, if we're talking about problems that you could have with a sacrifice, I mean, there's a whole number of problems potentially. And this Dr Rad 30:10 is a big have, yeah, this is a bull that is sacrificed, okay, Dr G 30:14 yeah, because it has to be, obviously, it has to be the right kind of bull. So you would hope that that's not the mistake that they've got the right kind of bull in terms of its coloration, for instance, and its age, things like that are very important. But it could be something about the nature of the procession to the ritual killing. It could be something about how the knife was wielded during the sacrifice. It could be something about what was said in the moment over the sacrifice, either before it happened or after it happened. So those verbalizations tend to be something that is really possible to make a mistake with, and could be heavily scrutinized afterwards. Now, how would you know you'd be waiting for other signs of the gods, right, to suggest that there was some sort of displeasure here, so then you'd have to backtrack. Yeah, yeah, the lake might be the indicator. Be like, Oh no, the lake, guys, I don't think we did it, right, yeah. Dr Rad 31:16 And it is. It is so interesting, because, as you say, I feel like I often do overlook these religious aspects to Roman life. And obviously this is beyond Roman life. This is about Latin communal life where they're coming together. And it becomes a really important sign that you're invited to this, you know that you're part of that particular community, and it's something that the Romans will continue to attend for, like, a really long time. So it's probably not the only moment where we might mention this particular festival. Now we don't know how far back this particular association goes exactly, even though we know the festival itself is very ancient, but it might be something to do with this myth idea that the Latins all trace their ancestry back to Latinus, the father in law of anaeus, who's obviously very important in terms of Roman understanding of themselves and their connection to Trojan War survivors, who is transformed into The figure of Juppiter Latiarius after his death. Now that may come after the festival, maybe a way of explaining some aspects of it, but certainly it does eventually have that particular association as well, which again highlights that shared culture. Dr G 32:35 Yeah. And as far as these sorts of things go, there's likely to be a number of different locations, in different spots locally, where gatherings happen depending on the god, depending on the time of year. So shared sacred spaces, essentially where people come together to meet in order to do this kind of ritual undertaking, in order to make sure those relationships with the gods are solid. Now I think what I would love to know, and I think might be impossible to really know, is how often might it be the case that the Romans are turning up to these sort of shared sacred spaces in order to engage in communal sharing of gods and sacrifice with people that they are also potentially at war with outside of those spaces, I've wondered to what degree that is happening, or whether there are times where certain groups don't attend in anticipation of not wanting to run into groups that they're currently in conflict with it is an Dr Rad 33:41 interesting question, because as far as we can tell, the Romans did not initiate this festival, and it's something that they just they became a part of, and became a perhaps more important part of as they start to conquer. You know, surrounding cities and towns and their reach grows larger, but yes, I agree. Awkward, Dr G 34:03 awkward. Oh, hey guys, just, just here for the sacrifice. Dr Rad 34:09 Could you please pass the slaughtered ball Dr G 34:12 that guy tried to stab me last year on the battlefield? Anything Dr Rad 34:18 now, as you highlighted Dr G in this particular moment, the only thing that could be done to address this was to get all of the military tribunes to resign their office and to retake the auspices and start an interregnum in the place of the military tribunes. Because, oh goodness, yeah, it causes huge problems, obviously, for their their power, the legality of that power, it's just not worth the risk. Dr G 34:44 Wow. It's been a while since, I think we've had an interregnum. Yeah? Okay, I'm up for that. Sure. Let it commence. Dr Rad 34:52 Yeah? So, I mean, I think it's because they see all these signs, not just the lake, but obviously the fact that they're not having much success in battle, like they're not you. Not a disaster, but it's not what they aspire to. So the Senate orders that this takes place the interregges who are chosen are Lucius Valerius, Quintus Servilius Fidenas and Marcus Furius Camillus. Dr G 35:12 Oh, okay, well, Dr Rad 35:15 how convenient. Yes, there are ongoing problems caused by these unnamed tribunes of the plebs who are continuing to cause issues. In this particular instance, they are blocking elections until they receive assurances that most of the new military tribunes with consular power would be plebeians, Dr G 35:38 fair enough. I mean, it's a classic tribune of the plebs move. I applaud them for it, and I wish them all the very best. Yeah, Dr Rad 35:45 yeah. And I think this is perhaps why they're unnamed, because Livy's just like, Oh my God, here we go again. Not more of this segue to what's going on in the Etruscan land. Ooh. The Etruscans are also having a bit of a meeting at this moment in time. Now, we've often seen the Etruscans come together at voltuner. It's where they all seem to meet chat and get on Veii's case. Dr G 36:16 What's happening down there this time? Guys? You need help again? We're busy. Yeah. Dr Rad 36:20 So now that they've got the capernaus and the Philistines involved in this whole shenanigan, they are strongly suggesting that all the Etruscans should band together to try and help end the siege against vein, because they're obviously now committed. And they're like, Come on, guys, come on. We know you hate vein, but what about us? We're adorable. However, once again, the Etruscans say a big fat no to helping. They citing their old reason that they had never shown any interest in helping or caring for anyone else but themselves. It Dr G 36:51 is really interesting, because one How would Livy know this, but also this idea that Etruria as a nation is starting to break down. Like, under what circumstances would you not try to look after one of your own? They is an Etruscan city. So the idea that the rest of the Etruscans are getting together and being like, No, and it's like, it's really rejecting somebody from your family at that point. Oh, yeah. Like, you're on your own, whatever. Yeah. Dr Rad 37:23 No, I know it's kind of bizarre, because surely they can see that things aren't going terribly, but it's not good. It's been the Siege has been enduring for quite some time now, and what Dr G 37:33 does it what does the true area think is going to happen if they falls? Who do they think is next? It's like they haven't thought ahead the way the civiliscans and the capinartes have. They're like, they're like, no, no, we're a solid block. We'll be fine. Dr Rad 37:48 The Etruscans also have their own problems going on, which might also explain their reluctance to help the people of A and that is that they're dealing with. And I quote my translation of Livy, a strange race new settlers. Who are these people? No freaking idea. The Etruscans aren't actually engaged in warfare with them at this point in time, but it's clear that it's a prickly situation, right? Dr G 38:14 Are these people, by any chance, from the North? Dr Rad 38:18 I know what you're thinking, and we can't really be sure, it doesn't seem quite right. Seems too early. Dr G 38:25 Intriguing. Yeah, I Dr Rad 38:26 I'll just explain to the listeners. I believe Dr G is asking if they are indeed, Gauls. Are Dr G 38:34 they have the French arrive. Everyone's like, I'm confused, but their cheese is delicious, so I'll let them stay for now. Dr Rad 38:44 Yeah, honestly, not sure. But from what I've seen so far, I think the answer is probably no, okay, yeah, but we don't know. Okay, Dr G 38:52 I wonder if they're people from the other side of the Apennines. Then there's sort of like, the East Coast Italians coming over the way, being like, hello, Dr Rad 39:02 East Coast. West Coast. Yeah, exactly, yeah. So the Etruscans decide to make a bit of a compromise in this whole scenario, which is that any of their young men who want to go and volunteer may go and help. They once again volunteering. Big thing 397, Dr G 39:19 nobody's got any money that that we've established Dr Rad 39:22 that might be it. Dr G 39:25 They spend it all paying the soldiers to get through winter. Nobody's got any cash left. Etruscans included, Dr Rad 39:30 yeah, with young people going to volunteer to help, they the Romans, of course, presumably don't know that all of this is going on, that this is a negotiation that's happening, and so all they see is this huge influx of young fighting men, and they're like, holy crap. What does this mean? Is this a sign that worse is to come? This seems very worrying. And of course, as soon as the external threat that external pressure is increased, it means that the patrician and plebeian problems, they got to take a back seat that predictable pattern that we come to know and love. Dr, G, Dr G 40:08 yes, we need to band together, put aside our personal political differences and make sure we win this war. It's the only way. In fact, it is the only patrician way to navigate anything. Yes, Dr Rad 40:22 it's at this moment that we see a return of Publius Licinius Calvus, if that name doesn't ring a bell for shame, because he was the first ever military Tribune with consular power, who was definitely, without doubt, a plebeian. And he first served in 400 BC, so only a few years ago. Dr G 40:41 How could one forget that's very exciting. But what's he What is he going to do? Does this mean they've put him into a magistracy or, Dr Rad 40:48 yeah, he's he's chosen again, to be prospective military tribune with consular power for the following year. I believe that's what, oh, that's what they want. And I think because they know that he's a very moderate character. Remember, if we cast our minds back to 400 BCE, it seems that he was chosen because, whilst he has the plebeian background that would please the tribunes of the plebs and the plebs themselves, he was not offensively radical to the patricians, Dr G 41:16 very willing to roll patrician style, yes, and Dr Rad 41:20 because he had proved himself before, I think they see this as a compromise moment, once again, all right, very interesting. Now I'm going to add another detail. It's going to blow your mind here. Okay, okay, so he was chosen even though he had not run for the office. Dr G 41:41 Okay. Well, that sounding more classic Roman potential, weird horse moment being like, I'm just hanging around being a dude, and it's like, we need you to save Rome. Yeah, Dr Rad 41:52 I think that's it. I think they see him as serving a very particular purpose and a moment of tension when they need the Roman people to be united, and the senators are very happy that he is around to serve this purpose. And I think the idea is they're going to get the whole band back together. That's what Livy says. He's like, let's just get everybody from 400 because that was a great team. We want that team. We need that team. Wow. Dr G 42:15 Okay, well, I feel like that's that will be an interesting moment for them, if that's the path they decide to tread for the next year. But I guess, I guess we'll find out soon. We Dr Rad 42:26 will, and I'm gonna have to save, unfortunately, the details of exactly what happens for the following year, because, of course, this is all for the following year. So this is looking forward to 396, the detail that I'll finish up on. And this is one I must admit, that I always find confusing to explain, because the Roman voting system is always one that perplexes me, particularly early on in this stage where we can't be 100% sure about a lot of details, but the way that he was chosen was apparently by prerogatives. Now explaining this is where I get a little a little tripped up. Essentially, the idea is that there are 18 centuries of knights, and they would vote first, and if they all vote the same way, the other centuries are not required to vote because they outnumber it. That whole idea of like the the rich and the powerful out ranking everybody else, Dr G 43:17 yeah, there's a yeah, there's a clear system of who gets to vote in what order. And then there's a first past the post kind of element to this, where it's like, once they reach a threshold of who the winner is, everybody else can just go home. Dr Rad 43:31 Yes. The difference is that with the praerogativa, the idea is that one would be chosen by lot. Okay, yeah, so that's kind of the idea, rather than them all voting together as a voting block, eventually, there was a system introduced where one would be one of the centuries would be chosen by lot, and it would be revealed to the rest of the assembly before a vote was recorded. So it was kind of being like, this is the way that we're heading, kind of indication, I suppose, Dr G 44:08 okay, and that selection by lot happens before the voting commences. Yeah, Dr Rad 44:13 it's this idea that one of the centuries. So presumably, what we're talking about here is like the committee a century art, and it's like one of the centuries from the first class would be chosen by a lot, and that would be like an indication of where things were going eventually, it was, I believe, adapted so that a single century would be chosen by a lot to try and make it a bit fairer. Now, all of these developments that I'm talking about here, they're all things that we can only test for certain at a much later date. We have no idea when these things actually really started. Dr G 44:47 Yeah, the voting organization is very unclear from our source material for this particular period, and I think we only start to get some really solid evidence, some hints and tips. It's in a century or two. Dr Rad 45:02 Yes, exactly. So exactly what this means is a little unclear, but it certainly, I think, is meant to be indicating that, look, this is the way that the vote would go. And we like this guy, we want Publius, Licinius Calvus, to be our man. Interesting. Very interesting. Yeah, so it's a little confusing. I apologize that I've explained this badly, but it's mostly because it's all about who has the right to vote first, essentially. And the reason why it's confusing is that it's really hard to know exactly how this would have played out at this particular moment in time, for sure. And that is about all I have for 397, BCE, dr, G Dr G 45:44 Oh, well. Exciting news. I have things to tell you about the broader Mediterranean world. Love it, not a lot, but I don't have much on Rome, but I have made a note about this prerogative motion in voting systems, because I'll go and have a look at it and have a look at it and see what I can dig up, because I would love to know more. Dr Rad 46:04 Yes, and I must admit, when I looked the more I looked it up, the more I became incredibly confused, because it's obviously been adapted several times, and none of those particular tested moments may have anything to do with this story. Dr G 46:18 Yeah, it's a tough one, particularly for this early period of the Republic. So the source that I have for this period is Diodorus Siculus, amazing. Who gets some of the names right of the military tribunes some of the names wrong, leaves a couple out. But he does also tell us about what's going down with the Persians and the Athenians at this point in time. So we have this really interesting character called Conon. Now, Conon was a naval commander of the Athenians, and he gets voted in on multiple occasions as Dr Goss so as a military commander, General figure, and during the Peloponnesian War, he gets caught up with some situations around my deline, and he loses a whole bunch of his ships. And this is a problem, and he escapes out of this situation, and he flees to a king eurogoros And who's in Cyprus. So he gets to a different island, he gets himself out of trouble, and it's at that point that he's put in touch with a guy called fauna barzos, who is a Sartre of the Persians, and is currently great king as well. So somehow, he falls in with the Persians, the powerful Persians at this time, and he is then taken in by the Persians and placed as an amral at the head of a Persian fleet because of his great skill set. So he's basically escaped from a war like situation and sold his skill set to the Persians. The Persians have been willing to accept that, and he's now an Athenian leading a Persian naval command. You're like, this is chaos. What is this guy up to? I Dr Rad 48:23 feel like that's not a terribly uncommon story for the Greeks at this moment in time. Even though the Persians are often like their great enemy, a lot of people who fall afoul of their fellow Greeks seem to find their way to Persia. Dr G 48:38 Yeah. And so it's in this sort of like situation where it's like he's fallen in with the Persians, and they're looking after him, and he's been put in charge of stuff that they then send him because it probably because of his intelligence, they send him at the head of a Persian fleet to Athens so not only is he now working for The Persians, but he now is rocking up at the doorstep of his former homeland, entering the parius with 80 triremes. And he's like, we're here to help. The Persians are here to help everyone's like, this situation is part of what is going on with this complexity of the Athenian situation, which has been variously strung out with the Peloponnesian War, which is just has wrapped up, but is now like, what are the consequences of that? And part of the consequences of that is that the Spartans are now seeing a power gap in opportunity, and so they see that this Conon character is that the head of this fleet, they try to make that a thing for them. It's just getting really messy over there. He eventually gets lured back to Persia, and there he's arrested because he's not doing what the Persians want him to do. So the Athenians don't seem to be particularly happy, and the Spartans are not very happy either. So it's a tale of woe and dissatisfaction that is playing out in Greece. So I mean good luck to the legates and ambassadors who have been trying to travel to the Oracle at Delphi, because it seems like it's a complicated time in the Mediterranean Sea in terms of who's going where or what ship, and how they're ending up, and who's actually in charge. And how do you tell if somebody's Persian or Athenian when they're in command of a whole fleet of vessels? Nobody knows it's madness out there. Indeed. Dr Rad 50:36 Oh my goodness. Well, that's Dr G 50:37 that's my fun tale. I'm sadly lacking in source material for the Romans. I Dr Rad 50:42 suspect that will change for the next year. I'm very excited Dr G 50:45 for the next year, because I have so many sources to consider, Dr Rad 50:49 indeed. Well, I think that means, Dr G, that it's probably time for and the partial pick a very tired little Igor today. So Dr G tell us about the partial pick. All Dr G 51:04 right, we judge Rome by their own standards, and often they fail miserably, so we'll see how they do this time round. But there are five categories that we're going to consider, and they can win up to 10 golden eagles in each category, and at the end, we'll add it up to see what they got out of 50 and whether it's a pass or fail for the old romance this time round, Dr Rad 51:27 I'm not holding my breath. I'm not going to lie. But let's start off with our first category. First category is military clout, all right. Well, whilst widely acknowledged to be in a stalemate. They did have that little victory over those Raiders. Dr G 51:43 I give them one point for that. They haven't lost Dr Rad 51:47 anything disastrously. They're holding their own. Dr G 51:51 They've won nothing else, but they're facing so many enemies, okay, two I would expect, I expect more victories, but they're Dr Rad 52:01 not losing. They're holding their own against several enemies and still managed to secure, okay, admittedly, a minor victory against some raiders, but still they got all their stuff back. Okay, Dr G 52:12 how well have the Romans acquitted themselves in battle? Is the question that is connected with the concept of military clout. Well, Dr Rad 52:20 they won against the Raiders. They got all their stuff back, and they give it back to everybody. Dr G 52:23 Raiding is not a battle. Dr Rad 52:25 No, the enemies were raiding. The Romans put those raiders in their place with volunteers, no less. Dr G, volunteers Dr G 52:35 willing to give them one golden eagle. Nothing more. All right, fine, nothing less. The second category is diplomacy, Dr Rad 52:44 Hmm, no, I don't think so. Dr G 52:48 I sense no negotiation. Well, Dr Rad 52:50 I feel like the Etruscans are negotiating amongst themselves, but that doesn't count for the Romans. Dr G 52:54 It certainly does not expansion, no. Dr Rad 52:58 I mean, they're kind of just holding on desperately. Dr G 53:05 Okay, weirdos? Oh, Dr Rad 53:06 my God, no, there's like nothing going on here. Dr G 53:10 I don't know. I felt like there was a weird to us moment when Calvus Didn't put himself forward. Is Dr Rad 53:18 that weird or so? Isn't weird to us about taking action. Dr G 53:22 I mean, yes, but it would also potentially if we had a scene where he actively declined. Dr Rad 53:31 I don't think that's what happened. I think, I mean, it's Look, I can't, I don't want to give anything away about the following year, but it seems more that he was just minding his own business, racing around trying to manage the folds of his toga. And he was chosen because he demonstrated that moderate behavior, which they felt Rome was sorely lacking at this point in time. And he doesn't seem to have said No, exactly, okay. Dr G 54:00 Well, he's coming across as a pretty bland character. Yes, yes. Doesn't say no. Just goes with the flow. I Dr Rad 54:09 mean, look, there will there will come a moment which, which is going to complicate this story in the following year. But I don't think he is like a Cincinnatus type of character where he's like, you just leave me alone to farm. Well, Dr G 54:21 in that case, I'm not seeing any clear signs of weird display. No. Dr Rad 54:26 I mean, look again, there's the dealing with the raiders, the military tribunes with consular power. They do that. They deal with the Alban Lake situation. But I feel that's just politicking Dr G 54:35 that is. I'm not necessarily seeing any standout figures of Roman weird to us. Yeah, all right. The final category perhaps the moment for redemption, because otherwise it's looking pretty grim, is the citizen score. Dr Rad 54:50 Oh boy. Okay, we don't get a lot of insight in this year to what's going on with the citizens, apart from the fact that there is this ongoing tension between the. Patricians and the plebeians. And again, it's a very stalemate situation. While it doesn't seem to be going that brilliantly for them, the tribunes of the plebs are definitely holding their own, unnamed as they are. They Dr G 55:15 are. They seem to have denied a levy, but we also have citizens who are volunteering to go on some counter raid. That's Dr Rad 55:23 true. But from where are they? The ones that had their stuff stolen? Well, Dr G 55:27 Give me back my blanket. I want my shoes, damn it. Dr Rad 55:31 How am I supposed to walk anywhere? Dr G 55:35 They say, walk a mile in his shoes, and you understand him. Understand myself without shoes. Yeah? So anyway, I don't know. Yeah, that's what Dr Rad 55:46 I mean. It's very confusing. We do have the military tribunes refusing a levy. We have them postponing elections until they get certain assurances, which seem to have been somewhat successful because of this Licinius Calvus person being resurrected again, vanilla as he is. He is a plebeian vanilla bean. Dr G 56:06 Well, I mean, if you have to have vanilla beans, let them be plebeian. Dr Rad 56:10 Yeah, yeah. So there's a little bit of success there, but there is still a lot of war going on, yes. Dr G 56:15 So as a citizen, it doesn't seem like it's the worst time, because it's not like that Romans having terrible losses on the battlefield, where you can be like, it's a horrible time to be a Roman city. They don't seem to be winning a lot either, no, except for the misplaced booty situation. So maybe Dr Rad 56:34 two, yeah, I think that is fair. I think we also need to rewrite that famous line from Charles Dickens. It wasn't quite the worst of times. It wasn't quite the best of times. Dr G 56:50 397, mediocre at best. Yeah, Dr Rad 56:54 and that means Dr G that we have a total of three out of 50 Golden Eagles for Rome. Well, Dr G 56:59 that's quite low Rome, but maybe next year will be redemption. Dr Rad 57:04 It's one of those things because I'm like, actually, this was an interesting year in some ways, but it just wasn't really going anywhere. It was like the holding pattern. Look this once again, could be Livy padding the narrative a little bit, until we get to the very big year of 396, he's in a holding pattern. He's circling. He's circling a very big story not ready to come into land yet. Dr G 57:29 Yeah. He's like a little vulture just waiting for the 10 years to be up so he can start telling this tale about how Dr Rad 57:36 How dare you He's an eagle. Dr G 57:39 Either way, either way. Yeah, Dr Rad 57:41 all right. Dr, G, well, that is 397 wrapped up, and I am extremely excited to talk to you about 396 because I have indicated a number of times I have you it's going to be a big one. Dr G 57:53 Oh yeah, looking forward to it. You. Dr Rad 57:55 Music. Thank you for listening to this episode of the Partial Historians. You can find our sources sound credits and an automated transcript in our show notes. Our music is by Bettina Joy De Guzman. You too can support our show and help us to produce more fascinating content about the ancient world by becoming a Patreon or buy us a coffee on ko fi. In return, you receive exclusive early access to our special episodes. Today, we would like to say salve to Taurus, Vicky, the Mercian People's Front and Gail some of our recent Patreon and Ko fi supporters. Thank you so much for joining the partial band. However, if you lost all of your money betting on the wrong Gladiator, please just tell someone about the show or give us a five star review. And if you're looking for something delightful and rumin to read over your holiday break, you can grab yourself a copy of our latest book, your cheeky guide to the Roman Empire out now Until next time we are yours in ancient Rome. You Transcribed by https://otter.ai