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American History Hotline: Why Were There So Many Serial Killers in 1970s America? · Operation Midnight Climax

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: I think in nineteen eighty seven there was something like
• 0:02
  Speaker 1: one hundred and ninety eight serial killers, and today there
• 0:04
  Speaker 1: are supposedly only twelve. But I don't know if that's
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: true because I work a lot of cases and I've
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: in the past month have encountered at least two technical
• 0:17
  Speaker 1: serial killers, but they weren't prosecuted for the murders that
• 0:20
  Speaker 1: they committed, so they're not being caught.
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  Speaker 2: You've reached American History Hotline. You asked the questions, We
• 0:30
  Speaker 2: get the answers. Leave a message. Hey, they're American History Hotliners.
• 0:38
  Speaker 2: Bob Crawford here, thrilled to be joining you again for
• 0:41
  Speaker 2: another episode of American History Hotline. We love all your questions,
• 0:46
  Speaker 2: so keep them coming and remember to send us a question,
• 0:50
  Speaker 2: record yourself with a voice memo or a video on
• 0:54
  Speaker 2: your phone and email it to Americanhistoryhotline at gmail dot com.
• 0:59
  Speaker 2: That's a Mari History Hotline at gmail dot com. Okay,
• 1:05
  Speaker 2: now to today's question. It's a bit of a dark one.
• 1:10
  Speaker 2: It's about serial killers. Here to help me answer the
• 1:13
  Speaker 2: question is Catherine Townsend. She's the host of the podcasts
• 1:18
  Speaker 2: Helling Gone, Murder Line and Red Collar.
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  Speaker 1: Hi, how are you I'm great. I'm very excited to
• 1:26
  Speaker 1: be here, very excited to be here, and very excited
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  Speaker 1: to talk about this.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, we're excited to speak with you about it. Okay, Catherine,
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  Speaker 2: here's the question we were hoping you could help us answer.
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  Speaker 2: It's from Dave in San Louis Obispo, California. He writes,
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  Speaker 2: why were there so many serial killers in the seventies
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  Speaker 2: and are there fewer today now? Catherine, I imagine there
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  Speaker 2: are a lot of reasons for this. So let's just
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  Speaker 2: start with a definition. What is a serial killer?
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  Speaker 1: So technically a serial killer is some one who kills
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  Speaker 1: three or more victims with a cooling off period, which
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  Speaker 1: differentiates it from something like a mass shooting where there's
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  Speaker 1: more than three victims. But it's you know, all at once.
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  Speaker 1: That's the technical definition. And I can talk a little
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  Speaker 1: bit about why I think that serial killers have been
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  Speaker 1: very pigeonholed since the seventies in my opinion, but we
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  Speaker 1: can get into that later.
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  Speaker 2: Okay, So then, what are some of the traits you
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  Speaker 2: talked about? Three or more, three or more murders and
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  Speaker 2: then a break right, dig into that a little bit.
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  Speaker 1: Well, So, in other words, I think that when Okay,
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  Speaker 1: when we watch shows like mind Hunter and we talk
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  Speaker 1: about you know, the FBI criminal profilers, we think of
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  Speaker 1: serial killers as the traditional lone wolf, white male killer
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  Speaker 1: who stalks and needs to kill, and you know, these
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  Speaker 1: are people like Ted Bundy or Ed Geen, And I
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  Speaker 1: think that's what the public has thought of as a
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  Speaker 1: serial killer for a really long time. But what we're
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  Speaker 1: coming to find out is that a lot of that
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  Speaker 1: is actually not true. For example, only about I was
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  Speaker 1: reading that only about fifty percent or so serial killers
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  Speaker 1: are white. There are a lot of other, you know,
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  Speaker 1: minority groups represented there, but unfortunately, I think that people
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  Speaker 1: just weren't focusing on catching them, or for other reasons,
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  Speaker 1: weren't really looking for these victims. You have things like
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  Speaker 1: the Atlanta child killer, and in that case you have
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  Speaker 1: multiple African American victims, but no one was looking for
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  Speaker 1: these people for a long time, and so I think
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  Speaker 1: that there could be a lot more out there than
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  Speaker 1: people realize. Actually, the statistics tell us that something like,
• 3:38
  Speaker 1: I think in nineteen eighty seven there was something like
• 3:40
  Speaker 1: one hundred and ninety eight serial killers and today there's
• 3:43
  Speaker 1: supposedly only twelve. But I don't know if that's true
• 3:47
  Speaker 1: because I work a lot of cases and i've in
• 3:52
  Speaker 1: the past month have encountered at least two technical serial killers,
• 3:57
  Speaker 1: but they weren't prosecuted for the murders that they committed,
• 3:59
  Speaker 1: so they're not being caught.
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  Speaker 2: So you're saying right now, out there somewhere there are
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  Speaker 2: at least twelve active serial killers.
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  Speaker 1: That's what the research says. Yes, and when we talk
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  Speaker 1: about why they are fewer now than since the seventies,
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  Speaker 1: if in fact that's true, which is another question. I
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  Speaker 1: think there are a lot of reasons. I've seen everything
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  Speaker 1: from lead and lead pipes blamed to a lot of
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  Speaker 1: the serial killers coming up in the seventies and eighties
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  Speaker 1: where the children of Vietnam veterans and those people experienced
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  Speaker 1: a lot of PTSD. There was less mental health in
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  Speaker 1: the home, you know, talk about mental health, so maybe
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  Speaker 1: these children were abused. There are a lot of theories.
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  Speaker 1: For my money, it comes down to I do another
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  Speaker 1: podcast called Red Collar where it's all about white collar
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  Speaker 1: criminals who kill. And when you talk about the triangle
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  Speaker 1: of fraud, Okay, you've got opportunity, pressure, rationalization. So pressure
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  Speaker 1: and rationalization are things that come from within you can
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  Speaker 1: you know, just like a serial killer, you can rationalize it,
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  Speaker 1: you have this emotional need to do it. The big
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  Speaker 1: thing that we can't control is opportunity. An opportunity really
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  Speaker 1: for me, is about the victim pool. Back in the
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  Speaker 1: seventies and eighties, you had this huge pool of victims,
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  Speaker 1: mainly I mean a lot of hitchhikers, and you also
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  Speaker 1: had sex workers who were kind of off the grid.
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  Speaker 1: You still have that today. You had a lot less
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  Speaker 1: ability to DNA test. None of the law enforcement agencies
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  Speaker 1: talk to each other in the way they do now,
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  Speaker 1: so you have less cohesiveness there. And I think it
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  Speaker 1: was kind of this perfect storm that allowed these people to,
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  Speaker 1: if they felt like killing someone, get away with it.
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  Speaker 2: A lot of people point to ed Gean Right as
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  Speaker 2: the first serial killer, but we know there have been
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  Speaker 2: There were others before HH Holmes, who gained notoriety through
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  Speaker 2: Eric Larson's book The Devil in the White City. Can
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  Speaker 2: we say who was the first, let's say, American serial
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  Speaker 2: killer because HH Holmes was active around the time of
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  Speaker 2: Jack the Ripper in London.
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  Speaker 1: Correct, Yes, So, I mean, honestly, I don't think we
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  Speaker 1: know about the first serial killer. There was and it
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  Speaker 1: might have been after H. Tolms, but it was. There
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  Speaker 1: was this guy, Albert Fish who killed a lot of
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  Speaker 1: children and wasn't found until much later.
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  Speaker 2: But I think the time period was he.
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  Speaker 1: You know, I can't exactly remember. I want to say
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  Speaker 1: the nineteen thirty, so that would have been later, okay,
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  Speaker 1: But I think of that's kind of someone I think
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  Speaker 1: of as being early serial killer. But I don't think
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  Speaker 1: we know about the first serial killers. I think they've
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  Speaker 1: been around a really long time doing bad things. But
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  Speaker 1: the problem is the technology to catch them didn't exist.
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  Speaker 1: And again, like law enforcement agencies didn't talk to each
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  Speaker 1: other the way they did now. There was no national database.
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  Speaker 1: For a long time before there were computers, Each individual
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  Speaker 1: police agency was researching things on paper, you know, I mean,
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  Speaker 1: and they would have to wait months and years to
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  Speaker 1: get results back. So I think that had a lot
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  Speaker 1: to do with it. It was much easier to kill someone
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  Speaker 1: in one geographical area and then get away with it.
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  Speaker 2: So if we're trying to figure out what creates a
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  Speaker 2: critical mass right of serial killers in one decade or
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  Speaker 2: in one time period, you know, we talk about the
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  Speaker 2: scars of war and those coming home and children being
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  Speaker 2: emotionally neglected and abused, and then they grew up and
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  Speaker 2: they become serial killers HH Holmes or maybe lead poisoning.
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  Speaker 2: Maybe HH Holmes was the victim of lead poisoning. But
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  Speaker 2: if we see these serial killers in different decades, maybe
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  Speaker 2: what makes a serial killer isn't time sensitive, right, isn't
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  Speaker 2: to one error. Maybe it's a human flaw.
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  Speaker 1: I think it is. And I also think that it's
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  Speaker 1: a big question is you know, look, these are not
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  Speaker 1: completely These people are asking themselves, what's my chances of
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  Speaker 1: getting caught? Will I get away with this? And we
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  Speaker 1: see this overall types of crime, And the fact is
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  Speaker 1: during the seventies and eighties, they had a much better
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  Speaker 1: chance of getting away with it than they do today. Also,
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  Speaker 1: we haven't even talked about things like DNA technology and
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  Speaker 1: the ability to catch people months and years later. The
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  Speaker 1: fact of the matter is, if you killed somebody in
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  Speaker 1: the seventies and eighties, especially if it was a victim. Sadly,
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  Speaker 1: a lot of these people who were targeted were sex workers.
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  Speaker 1: No one was looking for these people. So if you know,
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  Speaker 1: they would have a really good chance of getting away
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  Speaker 1: with it. I mean, the crime clearance rate today actually
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  Speaker 1: is only about fifty to sixty percent, and that's not
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  Speaker 1: even counting all the people who are out there missing.
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  Speaker 1: So I do think that, but I do think that
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  Speaker 1: in general today killers are much more aware of technology
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  Speaker 1: and they know that they will probably not get away
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  Speaker 1: with it, and they might get caught, and DNA might
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  Speaker 1: get them months or years later.
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  Speaker 2: Let's jump to these sixties and seventies, Okay, okay, who
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  Speaker 2: were some of the serial killers who were active at
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  Speaker 2: this time.
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  Speaker 1: Well, you had Richard Ramirez, the night Stalker. You had
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  Speaker 1: Ted Bundy, you had Bueno and Bianchi, the Hillside Stranglers.
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  Speaker 1: You had, I suppose, during the same time, the Golden
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  Speaker 1: State Killer. I mean, there were lots of serial killers
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  Speaker 1: during that era. And then you also had this was
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  Speaker 1: more recent, but you had the Long Island serial killer
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  Speaker 1: on the East Coast. So these guys were and these
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  Speaker 1: guys got away with it for a long time, and
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  Speaker 1: they were pretty brazen about picking women up. I think
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  Speaker 1: that's also the other factor that comes into this with
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  Speaker 1: when we talk about the victim pool, you're also talking
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  Speaker 1: about the sixties and seventies, a time period when many
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  Speaker 1: more young women are going out into the workforce and
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  Speaker 1: going to hang out in groups or by themselves and
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  Speaker 1: hitch hiking. Hitchhiking is a huge factor.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, talk about the automobile, right, and that and that
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  Speaker 2: as a as a tool of stalking and a tool
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  Speaker 2: of killing.
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  Speaker 1: Well, I mean it was the hitch hiking trend was
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  Speaker 1: before my time. But whenever I talked to my parents
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  Speaker 1: or I talked to people who you know, were around
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  Speaker 1: back then, they talk about how common it was to
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  Speaker 1: get a ride.
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  Speaker 2: I mean it was.
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  Speaker 1: It was people just thought nothing of hitching a ride,
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  Speaker 1: you know, getting a ride somewhere. And if someone picked
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  Speaker 1: you up and took you somewhere you didn't want to go.
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  Speaker 1: There was no cell phone or GPS or anything like that.
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  Speaker 1: You literally disappeared and you were just gone. And also
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  Speaker 1: compound that with the fact that a lot of these
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  Speaker 1: people sometimes there were people who were free spirits and
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  Speaker 1: maybe they'd left home and so they weren't missed right away,
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  Speaker 1: which is another problem because then you missed the critical
• 10:39
  Speaker 1: twenty four to forty eight hours. Yeah, I mean, the
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  Speaker 1: automobile is like the perfect perfect tool for a serial
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  Speaker 1: killer really, because it lets people entice their victim in
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  Speaker 1: and they have them in their environment and then they
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  Speaker 1: can you know, they have control of the situation, They
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  Speaker 1: can take them away from the primary location.
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  Speaker 2: When you think about the the late sixties and there
• 11:02
  Speaker 2: were a lot of kids who were running away from
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  Speaker 2: home and going to San Francisco or you know, free
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  Speaker 2: love and everything we think about with that era, it
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  Speaker 2: seems and even into the seventies, like you know, there
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  Speaker 2: was this lost generation, right, so it was really about
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  Speaker 2: opportunity and targets. It seems like it would be a prime.
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  Speaker 1: Time Oh yeah, I mean, think about it. If you are,
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  Speaker 1: if you're sort of you know, hippie free love going
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  Speaker 1: to a rock show or something like that, and then
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  Speaker 1: you disappear, you've got kind of again like a perfect
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  Speaker 1: storm of events. First of all, people wouldn't necessarily be
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  Speaker 1: alarmed right away and start looking for you. There's no
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  Speaker 1: way to trace, you know, there's no cell phones, there's
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  Speaker 1: no surveillance cameras back then. I think people now in
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  Speaker 1: this generation have a hard time even imagining how free
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  Speaker 1: it was. You just you could disappear for a few
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  Speaker 1: days and no one would hear from you, and that
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  Speaker 1: was not unusual. I feel like now also, that's another thing.
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  Speaker 1: People use cell phones. People are much more. Even if
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  Speaker 1: they are free spirits, they're in communication somehow, often where
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  Speaker 1: you can track their location or something. I travel around
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  Speaker 1: all the time, all around the world, and my mom
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  Speaker 1: is always saying, you know, please just at least share
• 12:14
  Speaker 1: your location with us. And I kind of laugh because
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  Speaker 1: when I was sixteen years old, i lived in Paris.
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  Speaker 1: There was no way for my parents to find me.
• 12:20
  Speaker 1: They would hear from me once a week when I
• 12:22
  Speaker 1: called on a phone card. And I'm always thinking about
• 12:25
  Speaker 1: how lucky anything could have happened to me. Really, I mean,
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  Speaker 1: it just takes a lot longer. There was long longer
• 12:30
  Speaker 1: legs in communication.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, and there are things now with if you have kids,
• 12:33
  Speaker 2: you have Life three sixty and you have at your
• 12:36
  Speaker 2: the iPhone, you can set it up where you know
• 12:38
  Speaker 2: where your child is at all times, or at least
• 12:41
  Speaker 2: where their cell phone is at all times.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, you know where their device is, right. But I agree,
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  Speaker 1: I think that there and I think also it's not
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  Speaker 1: only that parents have used it. I mean, I think
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  Speaker 1: teenager for the most part, a lot of people feel
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  Speaker 1: that it is a safety feature that they want for
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  Speaker 1: that reason. And uh, yeah, I just had nothing like
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  Speaker 1: that in the sixties. Seventies, eighties, nineties, that was just
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  Speaker 1: non existent, so it took much longer. And also even
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  Speaker 1: things like amber alerts are pretty recent, so you just
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  Speaker 1: there was no way of knowing someone was missing, and
• 13:13
  Speaker 1: there was this hole you have to wait twenty four
• 13:15
  Speaker 1: or forty eight hours, which is no longer true, but sadly,
• 13:19
  Speaker 1: a lot of stuff got missed in those crucial time periods.
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  Speaker 2: So the more you learn about some of these killers
• 13:26
  Speaker 2: like John Wayne Gacy and Jeffrey Dahmer you know, we're
• 13:29
  Speaker 2: getting into the eighties and nineties now, the more you
• 13:32
  Speaker 2: realize how sloppy they were.
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  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, they were not. These were not master criminals.
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  Speaker 1: They had luck and they had a lot of opportunity
• 13:41
  Speaker 1: with their victim pool. Like Okay, Jeffreydamer is a really
• 13:44
  Speaker 1: good example because a lot of people who he encountered
• 13:48
  Speaker 1: were leading double lives. Sadly, due to that time period,
• 13:51
  Speaker 1: a lot of them were not you know, out, they
• 13:53
  Speaker 1: were not gay openly, and so that was also another opportunity.
• 13:57
  Speaker 1: If they're not telling someone in their lives, people closes
• 14:00
  Speaker 1: to them, what's actually going on, then it becomes hard
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  Speaker 1: to investigate because then you've got to figure out that
• 14:04
  Speaker 1: whole aspect, and again no cell phones, no tracking devices. Yeah,
• 14:10
  Speaker 1: they were very sloppy. I mean he was leaving body
• 14:13
  Speaker 1: parts in his kitchen and it's that whole thing is
• 14:18
  Speaker 1: just so sad.
• 14:19
  Speaker 2: Are there examples that you can think of where the
• 14:21
  Speaker 2: cops had these people in there, you know, basically in
• 14:24
  Speaker 2: their clutches and let them go.
• 14:27
  Speaker 1: Well, Jeffrey Dahmer, one of his victims was fourteen years
• 14:32
  Speaker 1: old and didn't speak English and got away from him
• 14:36
  Speaker 1: and was running naked through the streets and the police
• 14:38
  Speaker 1: actually brought the fourteen year old back to Jeffrey Dahmer's
• 14:41
  Speaker 1: place and he ended up killing him, and that, to
• 14:43
  Speaker 1: me is incredibly tragic. I think there was a lot
• 14:47
  Speaker 1: less also. I think in general there was just police
• 14:50
  Speaker 1: saw it, unfortunately as a sort of some sort of
• 14:52
  Speaker 1: lover's spat that he want to get involved with, and
• 14:55
  Speaker 1: they didn't protect this child, which is also tragic.
• 15:05
  Speaker 2: This is American History Hotline. I'm your host Bob Crawford Today.
• 15:08
  Speaker 2: My guest is Katherine Townsend. She's the host of the
• 15:12
  Speaker 2: podcasts Helen Gone, Murder Line and Red Collar. We're talking
• 15:17
  Speaker 2: about why the nineteen seventies was rife with serial killers. Remember,
• 15:22
  Speaker 2: send us your burning questions about American history to American
• 15:26
  Speaker 2: History Hotline at gmail dot com. You can leave us
• 15:30
  Speaker 2: a voice memo message. You can write us an email.
• 15:32
  Speaker 2: If you want make us a video to send it
• 15:35
  Speaker 2: to Americanhistory Hotline at gmail dot com. Now back to
• 15:39
  Speaker 2: the show. Let's talk about the victims of these killers.
• 15:43
  Speaker 2: You mentioned the poor young boy who who the cops
• 15:48
  Speaker 2: took back to Jeffrey Dahmer and then he killed them.
• 15:52
  Speaker 2: We talked, and we talked about racial minorities, gay or
• 15:56
  Speaker 2: sex workers, talk about the police and the for looking
• 16:01
  Speaker 2: of the marginalized in the late twentieth century.
• 16:05
  Speaker 1: Well, the sad thing about the overlooking of marginalized people
• 16:08
  Speaker 1: is that it's still happening today. I do think it's
• 16:11
  Speaker 1: gotten better, there's more education, but it's something that I see.
• 16:15
  Speaker 1: I cover forty eight cases a year or something like that,
• 16:17
  Speaker 1: and I see it all the time. I think that
• 16:20
  Speaker 1: there are a few things going on. I think that sometimes,
• 16:25
  Speaker 1: as with the Jeffrey Dahmer example, the police see a
• 16:27
  Speaker 1: situation and just they don't want to get involved in
• 16:30
  Speaker 1: some sort of subculture. Maybe they don't understand and so
• 16:34
  Speaker 1: they just won't get involved, sometimes often with either with
• 16:39
  Speaker 1: both with sex workers, but also just with teenage girls
• 16:42
  Speaker 1: who disappear. There's this attitude of, oh, well, you know,
• 16:46
  Speaker 1: they were dating a bunch of different people, and you know,
• 16:49
  Speaker 1: maybe they'll come back, or they treat it as if
• 16:52
  Speaker 1: there's a lot of there's still quite a bit of
• 16:54
  Speaker 1: victim blaming that goes on. In my opinion, that's.
• 16:57
  Speaker 2: What this sounds like to me.
• 16:59
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I was working on a case where one of
• 17:03
  Speaker 1: my first big cases, and I literally had the investigator saying,
• 17:07
  Speaker 1: we're talking about a twenty two year old college student
• 17:09
  Speaker 1: who had been staying with her boyfriend but had been
• 17:12
  Speaker 1: dating some other people went missing, and he made the
• 17:15
  Speaker 1: comment he said, well, with the lifestyle she was living,
• 17:17
  Speaker 1: what did she expect? And I just was I was
• 17:19
  Speaker 1: actually stunned because I just thought, I can't believe this
• 17:23
  Speaker 1: is where we are in two thousand at the time,
• 17:25
  Speaker 1: twenty eighteen, but it still happens. And I feel like
• 17:31
  Speaker 1: a lot of people are just not being looked for.
• 17:33
  Speaker 1: But then from the other side, they're not being reported
• 17:36
  Speaker 1: missing either right away, and that's a big problem for
• 17:39
  Speaker 1: an investigation. That does make things a lot harder in
• 17:42
  Speaker 1: the police's defense that makes things a lot harder.
• 17:45
  Speaker 2: I can't stop thinking about these active cases like here,
• 17:47
  Speaker 2: I thought we were going to talk about the past,
• 17:50
  Speaker 2: and we have and we will. But you know, according
• 17:53
  Speaker 2: to you and speaking to you, it's like, this is
• 17:55
  Speaker 2: a very immediate threat. This is happening right now, more
• 18:01
  Speaker 2: than we think it is, more than we realize it is.
• 18:04
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think when I say that, I'm talking about
• 18:08
  Speaker 1: things like using the example the case I've been working on,
• 18:12
  Speaker 1: you have an individual and maybe it doesn't fit into
• 18:14
  Speaker 1: the stereotypical man who is who needs to kill and
• 18:18
  Speaker 1: he's targeting women. What actually happens is some of these
• 18:21
  Speaker 1: people just it's not that they necessarily need to kill,
• 18:24
  Speaker 1: but they want what they want and they'll do it,
• 18:26
  Speaker 1: and they will absolutely kill someone if that person steps
• 18:29
  Speaker 1: in the way of what they want. The example I'm
• 18:31
  Speaker 1: talking about is a case where a man killed two people,
• 18:37
  Speaker 1: was charged with murder, but then the police lost the DNA.
• 18:41
  Speaker 1: So over a period of time, there was one victim,
• 18:43
  Speaker 1: there was another victim years later. One was his landlord,
• 18:46
  Speaker 1: one was someone else who got into an argument with
• 18:48
  Speaker 1: then he ended up breaking into a woman's apartment and
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: beating and killing her. Seriously injuring her boyfriend, and we
• 18:54
  Speaker 1: think there might be a fourth person who's responsible for
• 18:57
  Speaker 1: So it's not what you'd think of as a traditional
• 18:59
  Speaker 1: serial killer. Or he wasn't stalking and killing just female victims,
• 19:02
  Speaker 1: but he's killed a lot of people, but he's not
• 19:04
  Speaker 1: called a serial killer. So I just feel like there's
• 19:07
  Speaker 1: a lot of people out there who may be technical
• 19:10
  Speaker 1: serial killers who would not getting counted.
• 19:12
  Speaker 2: You're almost saying that we need to redefine what makes
• 19:17
  Speaker 2: a serial killer, right or.
• 19:19
  Speaker 1: Just think of it. It can still be someone who's
• 19:21
  Speaker 1: had three victims with a cooling off period. But I
• 19:24
  Speaker 1: definitely think that for example, also a lot of the
• 19:28
  Speaker 1: white collar cases I work on that then turns to murder.
• 19:32
  Speaker 1: I think people kill people for a lot of reasons.
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: It's not always the sexual, sadist, rapist, predator. There was
• 19:39
  Speaker 1: a really good example that I don't know if you
• 19:41
  Speaker 1: ever saw the Netflix series The Serpent, but it was
• 19:44
  Speaker 1: really good. It was about a serial killer who was
• 19:46
  Speaker 1: back in the sixties, seventies, eighties, living in Nepal in
• 19:50
  Speaker 1: all these different places, and he very much capitalized on
• 19:53
  Speaker 1: the free love vibe that was going on during that time,
• 19:56
  Speaker 1: and he was able to kind of scam people, but
• 19:59
  Speaker 1: then when they would find out out about his scams,
• 20:00
  Speaker 1: he really just wanted to steal money, but he killed
• 20:03
  Speaker 1: a lot of them. He had a lot of victims,
• 20:05
  Speaker 1: So I think there are a lot of people like
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: that floating around out there, sadly.
• 20:09
  Speaker 2: How many women serial killers have you come across?
• 20:14
  Speaker 1: Come across? I mean, I've never really interviewed a female
• 20:16
  Speaker 1: serial killer. Well maybe one.
• 20:20
  Speaker 2: Have you interviewed a serial killer?
• 20:22
  Speaker 1: No? No, I was thinking about someone who's had a
• 20:24
  Speaker 1: couple victims, but technically she's not a serial killer. I've interviewed.
• 20:28
  Speaker 1: I mean, I've definitely interviewed female killers, and I was
• 20:33
  Speaker 1: thinking of one because I believe that she I believe
• 20:35
  Speaker 1: she might actually be a serial killer, but I can't
• 20:37
  Speaker 1: prove it. I think that women, traditionally, most female serial
• 20:42
  Speaker 1: killers are not like Aileen Warno's and I think that
• 20:44
  Speaker 1: that case has been hugely publicized. She kind of killed,
• 20:49
  Speaker 1: she killed her victims and more what you might think
• 20:51
  Speaker 1: of as a male fashion. I'm not trying to be sexist,
• 20:53
  Speaker 1: but just saying, you know, she used a weapon. They
• 20:56
  Speaker 1: were kind of violent.
• 21:00
  Speaker 2: Oh I'm sorry, Yeah.
• 21:01
  Speaker 1: Just so alien Warnos was a female serial killer. She
• 21:06
  Speaker 1: was the one who was portrayed in the movie Monster
• 21:09
  Speaker 1: by Charlie Saran. She had several victims, and she'd had
• 21:14
  Speaker 1: this really tragic life. She had been sexually assaulted and
• 21:17
  Speaker 1: raped by men in her own family. She became a
• 21:20
  Speaker 1: sex worker, and in a way, a lot of people
• 21:23
  Speaker 1: think of her as kind of a sympathetic character because
• 21:25
  Speaker 1: she lured some men who were clients of hers into
• 21:31
  Speaker 1: the car with her and then she murdered them, and
• 21:33
  Speaker 1: it was usually pretty violent. She would shoot them. She
• 21:35
  Speaker 1: would actually she would kill them in ways that were
• 21:37
  Speaker 1: thought of as more of a male way of killing,
• 21:41
  Speaker 1: because typically experts say that men are more violent and
• 21:45
  Speaker 1: women are more kind of I want to say this
• 21:47
  Speaker 1: is going to sound wrong, but low key women do
• 21:50
  Speaker 1: a lot more poisoning because you know, and honestly, I
• 21:55
  Speaker 1: think women get away with it more in my personal opinion,
• 21:58
  Speaker 1: because they are pretty subtle about it. And We've had
• 22:01
  Speaker 1: so many cases of female nurses who've killed multiple patients
• 22:04
  Speaker 1: and things like that. And I've had several cases that
• 22:07
  Speaker 1: I've reported on where a woman will kill several husbands.
• 22:12
  Speaker 1: So you have people like bel Guinness who woul lure
• 22:14
  Speaker 1: her borders in. She had a boarding house and then
• 22:16
  Speaker 1: she would kill people and bury them in the yard. Again,
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: that was more of a fraud case. She just wanted
• 22:21
  Speaker 1: the money, but at some point she had to get
• 22:23
  Speaker 1: rid of the bodies.
• 22:24
  Speaker 2: We did a past episode on serial poisoners. Yeah, that's
• 22:29
  Speaker 2: so before all the age of CSI we live in now, right,
• 22:35
  Speaker 2: with all the forensic tools. Before that in the seventies,
• 22:40
  Speaker 2: how did police track a serial killer? Because you talked
• 22:44
  Speaker 2: about that critical forty eight hours being impossible. So how
• 22:51
  Speaker 2: did these detectives and police like eventually find their the killers.
• 22:57
  Speaker 1: Most of them did a lot of what I do,
• 23:00
  Speaker 1: because most of my cases never have very few have
• 23:03
  Speaker 1: physical evidence we can see or use anyway. They did
• 23:06
  Speaker 1: old school detective gumshoe pounding, the pavement detective no our
• 23:12
  Speaker 1: police work, where they went out, they talked to people
• 23:15
  Speaker 1: on the streets, They developed sources, and they just kept
• 23:19
  Speaker 1: following leads. And for example, I'm thinking of the Hillside
• 23:22
  Speaker 1: strangler case, they went and literally talked to all of
• 23:26
  Speaker 1: these women. You know, they went into the community, they
• 23:31
  Speaker 1: knew the community, they got their sources, and then that's
• 23:35
  Speaker 1: how they got you know, heard about rumors of these
• 23:36
  Speaker 1: weird guys who were kind of out there, and then
• 23:39
  Speaker 1: they just followed those leads. They had much less to
• 23:41
  Speaker 1: work with.
• 23:43
  Speaker 2: Let's talk about some of the people who are serial
• 23:45
  Speaker 2: killers but kind of not serial killers. And you kind
• 23:48
  Speaker 2: of already allude to this, like Charles Manson, Like, right,
• 23:53
  Speaker 2: he never actually killed anyone or did any right.
• 23:56
  Speaker 1: I think of him more as a cult leader myself,
• 24:00
  Speaker 1: think of Charles Manson Moore as a cult leader. He certainly,
• 24:03
  Speaker 1: I would say, you know it, was responsible for those
• 24:05
  Speaker 1: deaths and had a part in them. But you're right,
• 24:08
  Speaker 1: he never actually did it. But then what do you
• 24:10
  Speaker 1: call people who, for example, will hire someone, they'll hire
• 24:14
  Speaker 1: a hitman. Well, they didn't actually do it, but they
• 24:16
  Speaker 1: definitely masterminded it. I feel like he was masterminding it.
• 24:19
  Speaker 1: So I guess it's the same kind of thing.
• 24:22
  Speaker 2: When I was in college in the nineties early nineties,
• 24:26
  Speaker 2: two guys I knew on spring break went to visit
• 24:29
  Speaker 2: John Wayne Gacy in jail. What is it about the
• 24:34
  Speaker 2: fascination that we all have for serial killers? The movie?
• 24:39
  Speaker 2: I mean, because you have two podcasts, there are endless
• 24:43
  Speaker 2: movies about serial killers, television shows, documentaries, books. True crime
• 24:49
  Speaker 2: is so popular. What is it about the non killers
• 24:55
  Speaker 2: curiosity about the serial killer?
• 24:57
  Speaker 1: I don't know. Since I was a child, i've read
• 25:01
  Speaker 1: I started out reading all the annual true crime books.
• 25:04
  Speaker 1: I am fascinated by those things, but I sort of
• 25:07
  Speaker 1: turned on its head a little bit. I'm much more
• 25:08
  Speaker 1: interested in the victims, how they survived, how they figured
• 25:12
  Speaker 1: things out, how to solve the mystery, than I am
• 25:14
  Speaker 1: in the killers, because the truth is, they're not very interesting.
• 25:17
  Speaker 1: They're really not. They're superficially charming maybe at best, but
• 25:22
  Speaker 1: like you said, most of the time, they just got
• 25:24
  Speaker 1: really lucky. I mean, Jomyan Gacy literally had a graveyard
• 25:28
  Speaker 1: underneath his house, and he was actually very sloppy. He
• 25:33
  Speaker 1: just happened to get lucky and that no one was
• 25:35
  Speaker 1: maybe looking for those people or thought that he would
• 25:37
  Speaker 1: have done it, and he just kind of got lucky.
• 25:39
  Speaker 1: I don't know why people were so fascinated with them.
• 25:42
  Speaker 1: I don't find them that interesting, to be totally honest.
• 25:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it was crazy that these guys did this, and
• 25:47
  Speaker 2: I think he gave them some of his paintings.
• 25:50
  Speaker 1: He gave them some paintings.
• 25:51
  Speaker 2: The paintings. Yeah, it's crazy, Well, I.
• 25:54
  Speaker 1: Do, but it's the same thing with you know, it's
• 25:56
  Speaker 1: not exactly the same, but with prison pen pals. I mean,
• 25:59
  Speaker 1: I end up in my job writing a lot of
• 26:01
  Speaker 1: people in prison because by necessity. But you know, I'm
• 26:05
  Speaker 1: always amazed at how many women want to be in
• 26:07
  Speaker 1: relationships with these guys, and that does kind of blow
• 26:11
  Speaker 1: me away, I'll be honest, that's what is it about.
• 26:13
  Speaker 2: Like you've spoken to some of these women, right, I mean,
• 26:16
  Speaker 2: have you ever.
• 26:17
  Speaker 1: Seen the same reason people keep Yeah, we actually have.
• 26:20
  Speaker 1: I'm sorry to bring it back to my cases, but
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: it is wild. We have one right now where when
• 26:25
  Speaker 1: this guy, he's in his forties now, when he was
• 26:28
  Speaker 1: seventeen years old, he killed his entire family, all right,
• 26:30
  Speaker 1: and there's overwhelming evidence. I've seen the case fall he
• 26:33
  Speaker 1: clearly did it. He threw a party, he killed his
• 26:36
  Speaker 1: young sister, his stepfather, and his mother covered the bodies
• 26:39
  Speaker 1: up three a party like high school, had high school
• 26:42
  Speaker 1: people over partying for a week, and I mean it
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: was pretty horrific. And then he's been in jail for
• 26:48
  Speaker 1: a long time. But because in Arkansas the law changed
• 26:50
  Speaker 1: and now he's eligible for release, he's going to get released.
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: And this woman who keeps calling us is so convinced
• 26:57
  Speaker 1: that he didn't do it, And I keep saying, did
• 27:00
  Speaker 1: you read the case file? At least read the case file.
• 27:02
  Speaker 1: You have children, you know, please read the case file.
• 27:05
  Speaker 1: And she's just completely believes he's the best thing. Ever.
• 27:08
  Speaker 1: Maybe it's not to be flippant. Maybe it's the same
• 27:10
  Speaker 1: thing when people want to raise wild animals or something.
• 27:13
  Speaker 1: It's just this weird it's this need to have a
• 27:16
  Speaker 1: sort of dark, dramatic thing in your life that's sort
• 27:19
  Speaker 1: of caged, safely caged, right, so you kind.
• 27:22
  Speaker 2: Of get them them them, I can yield it.
• 27:26
  Speaker 1: And if not, they're behind bars, so they're telling you
• 27:29
  Speaker 1: everything you want to hear. Anyway, maybe it's that I
• 27:32
  Speaker 1: truly don't understand. I was single for a long time,
• 27:35
  Speaker 1: wondering what I was doing wrong, because you know, every
• 27:38
  Speaker 1: serial killer in prison I knew how to partner or
• 27:41
  Speaker 1: multiple partners.
• 27:42
  Speaker 2: Even the serial killers are in love, you.
• 27:45
  Speaker 1: Know, and I'm like, I can't get a date. I mean,
• 27:47
  Speaker 1: this is you know, and these guys are literally I
• 27:50
  Speaker 1: mean there's they've got ten or fifteen women on the hook.
• 27:54
  Speaker 1: What am I doing wrong?
• 27:55
  Speaker 2: Have you saw? Like you talk about you and you
• 27:58
  Speaker 2: say we like you have a stash and forget me
• 28:00
  Speaker 2: for not knowing all the details. But but have you
• 28:03
  Speaker 2: solved I mean, have you convinced law enforcement that you
• 28:07
  Speaker 2: know this person is a serial killer? Have you solved cases?
• 28:10
  Speaker 1: It wasn't a serial killer, but yeah, we we our
• 28:13
  Speaker 1: first season of Hell and Gone involved the murder of
• 28:17
  Speaker 1: a twenty two year old girl in the Arkansas Ozarks
• 28:19
  Speaker 1: who was a friend of my sisters. Well, story short,
• 28:22
  Speaker 1: we went in, we had absolutely no access to the
• 28:25
  Speaker 1: case file. We went out and did all of our
• 28:27
  Speaker 1: own investigating. And when I say we, it was it
• 28:30
  Speaker 1: was a small staff. It was me, a couple of producers,
• 28:34
  Speaker 1: and but I was mainly the one in I was
• 28:36
  Speaker 1: the one in the field all that, you know, most
• 28:38
  Speaker 1: of the time, for months at a time. Anyway, we
• 28:41
  Speaker 1: ended up the original investigator on the case who told
• 28:43
  Speaker 1: me to mind my own business and that investigations were
• 28:46
  Speaker 1: grown up stuff. Got was removed from the case somehow,
• 28:49
  Speaker 1: and after that a new investigator came in and the
• 28:52
  Speaker 1: case was solved in nine months. This case was solved
• 28:55
  Speaker 1: in nine months. And now there's someone in jail convicted
• 28:57
  Speaker 1: for that. So uh now, now, well, the Arkansas State
• 29:01
  Speaker 1: police ever admit that we helped solve it. No, they'll
• 29:03
  Speaker 1: tell you that after sixteen years it was a coincidence.
• 29:06
  Speaker 1: I know we did. I know we helped, and that
• 29:08
  Speaker 1: makes me very proud. I don't care if we solved
• 29:10
  Speaker 1: it or not. I just know that we helped, and
• 29:11
  Speaker 1: that's all ever wanted to do.
• 29:13
  Speaker 2: I'm sure it gave you inspiration to keep going. Oh yeah,
• 29:16
  Speaker 2: keep find it, finding more of these. So we started
• 29:19
  Speaker 2: out and you've answered this a couple times during our conversation.
• 29:24
  Speaker 2: But it's like, is our serial killers an American thing?
• 29:28
  Speaker 2: Is it? Or do we see them all over? Because
• 29:30
  Speaker 2: you mentioned someone in Nepal. Of course we know Jack
• 29:33
  Speaker 2: the Ripper. Is it like gun violence? It's there's more
• 29:37
  Speaker 2: of it in America, but it's not just exclusive to America.
• 29:41
  Speaker 1: I think serial killers are worldwide. I've certainly seen examples.
• 29:47
  Speaker 1: I'm just thinking about even things that I've read in
• 29:49
  Speaker 1: the past few years, Russia, Japan, although in Japan it
• 29:53
  Speaker 1: is more rare again just because it's so there's cameras everywhere.
• 29:58
  Speaker 1: The UK certainly to even today they are serial killers.
• 30:01
  Speaker 1: I do think that fewer people become serial killers today
• 30:05
  Speaker 1: because they're caught earlier, and I think the UK is
• 30:08
  Speaker 1: a really good example of that, because there have been
• 30:10
  Speaker 1: a couple like, for example, there's one called the Camden
• 30:13
  Speaker 1: Ripper who was killing and dismembering people, but I don't
• 30:16
  Speaker 1: know that he was technically a serial killer because there's
• 30:19
  Speaker 1: CCTV everywhere. When you go to the UK, it's wall
• 30:22
  Speaker 1: to wall CCTV, so usually they're able to apprehend people
• 30:27
  Speaker 1: before they actually technically kill that third person. So you
• 30:31
  Speaker 1: probably have a lot of people who would have become
• 30:32
  Speaker 1: serial killers, but they get caught earlier.
• 30:35
  Speaker 2: Well. And getting to this, and we've talked about this
• 30:37
  Speaker 2: throughout our conversation as well, but getting to the second
• 30:39
  Speaker 2: part of Dave's question, which is are there fewer serial
• 30:43
  Speaker 2: killers today?
• 30:45
  Speaker 1: It's a really hard question to answer. I'm not avoiding it.
• 30:48
  Speaker 1: I don't know. I think that Okay, research will tell you.
• 30:52
  Speaker 1: Studies will tell you that there are. There probably are.
• 30:56
  Speaker 1: At the same time, you got to look at where
• 30:57
  Speaker 1: the homicide clearance rates are going. There are fewer homicides
• 31:01
  Speaker 1: being cleared now somewhere.
• 31:03
  Speaker 2: Around mean by being cleared.
• 31:05
  Speaker 1: So that's the thing when when the police give these
• 31:07
  Speaker 1: statistics and they say you have a certain percentage of
• 31:10
  Speaker 1: homicides that are cleared. It doesn't necessarily mean they're sold
• 31:13
  Speaker 1: in the persons behind bars. All that it means is
• 31:17
  Speaker 1: I believe that the police have basically gone as far
• 31:19
  Speaker 1: as they can and that investigation and either the people
• 31:22
  Speaker 1: are dead you might be responsible, or they can't find them.
• 31:26
  Speaker 1: I mean they literally will market cleared, meaning but it
• 31:29
  Speaker 1: might not be solved. So you've got that first of all.
• 31:32
  Speaker 1: And then it's only about sixty percent fifty to sixty
• 31:35
  Speaker 1: percent are cleared. That doesn't include all the missing people
• 31:39
  Speaker 1: out there. So that means you've got about a one
• 31:41
  Speaker 1: and two chance of getting away with murder. Yeah, you
• 31:44
  Speaker 1: got a fifty to fifty chance of getting away with
• 31:45
  Speaker 1: murder in America based on where you are. And that's
• 31:50
  Speaker 1: a little scary, to be honest with you. I mean,
• 31:52
  Speaker 1: when you watch shows like CSI and Law and Order,
• 31:54
  Speaker 1: you're not seeing that. So I do think that there
• 31:57
  Speaker 1: are potentially more people out there. I think they're you know,
• 32:01
  Speaker 1: and plus what about all the missing people. A lot
• 32:03
  Speaker 1: of them are probably not alive, but they're not officially
• 32:06
  Speaker 1: getting counted, right, So I do think there are a
• 32:08
  Speaker 1: fewer serial killers. I do think the technology at catching
• 32:11
  Speaker 1: them earlier. Has gotten better, but I don't think that
• 32:14
  Speaker 1: we should rest easy.
• 32:16
  Speaker 2: We certainly won't be resting easy here, but it has
• 32:20
  Speaker 2: been nice and easy having a conversation with you. I've
• 32:25
  Speaker 2: been talking to Katherine Townsend. She's host of the podcast
• 32:29
  Speaker 2: Hell and Gone, Murder Line, and Red Collar. Give her
• 32:32
  Speaker 2: a call some time. Catherine. Thanks for joining us today
• 32:35
  Speaker 2: on American History Hotline.
• 32:37
  Speaker 1: Thank you so much.
• 32:43
  Speaker 2: You've been listening to American History Hotline, a production of
• 32:47
  Speaker 2: iHeart Podcasts and Scratch Track Productions. The show is executive
• 32:51
  Speaker 2: producer is James Morrison. Our executive producers from iHeart are
• 32:56
  Speaker 2: Jordan Runtall and Jason English. Original music composed by me
• 33:02
  Speaker 2: Bob Crawford. Please keep in touch. Our email is Americanhistory
• 33:06
  Speaker 2: Hotline at gmail dot com. If you like the show,
• 33:11
  Speaker 2: please tell your friends and leave us a review in
• 33:14
  Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts. I'm your host, Bob Crawford. Feel free to
• 33:18
  Speaker 2: hit me up on social media to ask a history
• 33:21
  Speaker 2: question or to let me know what you think of
• 33:23
  Speaker 2: the show. You can find me at Bob Crawford Base.
• 33:27
  Speaker 2: Thanks so much for listening. See you next week.