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Seeing The Unseen · The Hearing God Podcast

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_02: Welcome to the Hearing God Podcast.
• 0:03
  SPEAKER_02: I'm Anthony Moore.
• 0:04
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm Dan Lamus.
• 0:06
  SPEAKER_02: For over a decade, Anthony and I have been diving deep into weekly conversations about the prophetic, the mystical, and the matters of the heart.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_01: And we invite you into these weekly conversations.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_01: We hope you feel like an honored guest at our table.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_01: So pull up a chair, settle in, and let's get started.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_02: Well, here we are.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_02: Here we are.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_00: Here we are.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_00: Nice to sit and chat, Dan.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_02: How's it going?
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_02: It's going well.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_02: Going well.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I uh have found myself uh the past couple of days uh kind of feeling like I'm I'm appreciating uh growing up in Christ in a fresh way.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_02: Um and kind of been um been uh sitting with walking with those times in my life when um you know oftentimes like on the almost on the heels of a real high time with God.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_02: Like I can't believe I get to do this life in you, Lord Jesus.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_02: Nothing could be better, those mountaintop moments.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_02: It seems like uh following that is the coming down from the mountains or from the mountain and realizing, oh wow, being in union with you, Jesus, like being being in life, union with you, Jesus means I'm not gonna get to avoid the stuff I don't want to do.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_02: Right like there's gonna be trudging through uh from moment to moment or or from day to day that I'm like, oh, I was hoping I wouldn't have to do that, but yeah, but doing life in Christ uh still requires the nope, there's a certain amount of trudging that that is involved and there's joy in it somehow.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_02: I've been appreciating that in a first time.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I just think that's funny.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_01: Like I, you know, you say that, and uh, because I was thinking literally, quite literally this morning, like speaking about doing stuff you don't want to do.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I was thinking this morning, um, just was sitting on my deck with the Lord for a few minutes, and then um had this thought of like you know, the the prayer of Jesus in Gethsemane.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, this is this is a this is far a far bigger discussion than probably we're gonna make it.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_01: But it's the you know, it's the father, like if it be your will, let this cup pass for me.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but ultimately, like and so you can Monday pass for me.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, but you know, let this cup pass for me, but if it but not my will, but yours be done.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_01: And so the like and I got you know off into a rabbit trail.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_01: Like, why you know, again, we make a big deal of the oneness of father and son, and yes, you know, that that the crucifixion, you know, the cross was always the plan, yeah, right?
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_01: Crucified before the foundation of the earth, like that's not our idea, it's biblical, right?
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_01: But the but the thought there was like what okay, so what Jesus, what were you, what were you up to there?
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_01: Like, right, and there's a lot of like there's probably more than just a like surface level observation.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_01: There's probably plenty of as with scripture goes, right?
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_01: The more you dig into it, the deeper you find the well to be.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_01: But I was just thinking this morning, I was like, what did you do that for everyone's sake, or did you do that like what was going on there?
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_01: What was the real struggle?
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_01: What was the and again like the teaching moment right?
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_01: Because there was, you know, were you and and I have to believe this that you know Jesus wasn't sort of pretending to do that because of you know, he was writing scripture there and he was do you know what I'm saying?
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_01: He was so there was there was just this thought of like, okay, so how did that like father, son, you know, knowing and you know, Jesus had already gone through, you know, you know, washing, you know, there's the there's that quite a profound moment where Jesus, knowing that the father had given him all things, put everything under his feet, that's what this is the way he expressed he expressed his love is by taking his garment, wrapping around him and washing feet.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_01: So at this point, you have to, you know, again, this isn't about kenosis and all this stuff about Jesus laying aside uh you know his divinity, you know.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_01: Like I'm not I'm not necessarily going down that road, but I was just like, what what did you think Jesus like what was actually happening there?
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_01: Was your will like what Jesus it looked like he was saying, God I'm doing a thing I don't want to do.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_01: I'm doing a thing I don't want to do.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_01: But I'm surrendering my will to you.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_02: So so it's just like, I don't know, like I don't know if I have I'm gonna maybe we need a whole beautiful, that's a beautiful, that's a beautiful sort of you know, uh archway to walk through or doorway to walk through to say, wow, he was doing that as us.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_01: A hundred percent you know, it's like right because I'm not I'm not I'm not denying the correlation from a very human experience.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_01: Right, right.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_01: Our experience is often we have things that internally, like what would you know, the theological statement would be this bucks up against like this rubs up against my flesh.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, right.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_01: So very much it requires me to do things I don't want to do.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_01: Right, right.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_01: So it's like in in this, we know the right answer, scripture says this, we feel like God is asking us this, but yet there's there are desires, inward desires that are contrary to that.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_01: And so I was just and I and again, I'm not I'm not putting that on Jesus.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_01: I'm saying that like the the principle and the demonstration in that account is surrender.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, right.
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_01: And so Well, I do love it.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_02: It's the it's kind of the Psalm eight, how how you have how God, how uh, oh Lord, our Lord, how majestic is your name.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_02: And it comes down there in the middle of the middle of uh Psalm eight where it talks about how God has appointed human beings right you know to rule.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_02: And and we've talked about it many times in our conversations.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_02: More more Christians need to read that.
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_02: But that but I can see Psalm eight right there in Jesus' prayer.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, like on behalf of humanity, I am doing this thing.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you know, the what I I am the word made flesh.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_02: Father, we know this has always been the plan, yeah, and I'm in the moment, yeah, and oh my soul, right?
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_02: Like here it is bearing.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_02: Like all of my human nope.
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_02: This I am this, I am not, I can't, I do not want to do this, and yet not my will, Father, but yours.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_01: And I think, and again, not to uh I think some of those things legitimately were like, I'm going to, I'm this is going to be painful, right?
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_01: I know what's ahead of me.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, and also I love the people around me.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, like I am going, yeah, this is changing forever.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, right.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_01: I am not gonna, you know, again, I don't know what that means, but I just I think about like friends, like friendships, companionship, relationships.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_01: In like that was, I would say undoubtedly weighing on Jesus as well.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_02: And so Man, I love love.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_02: He he did not take upon himself personal shame that I'd rather this cup pass from me.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, he didn't come to his father saying, I'm really sorry, this is my attitude right now.
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_02: Please change my attitude.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_02: He he was coming saying, uh, I am I am just open before you.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_01: Like I wonder if yeah absolutely.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_01: And I and I went and I wonder if you could say it like this like that, like Jesus in the garden was like the pinnacle of humanity surrendering to God.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I love that.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, right.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_01: Like it was like kind of thing.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_01: The pinnacle moment of Jesus modeling what it was like to be human.
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_01: Wow, that's powerful.
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_02: It's like it's like we're it's like we're peering into something here where something was settled on behalf of humanity that we can we can do the things right that are going to be painful and we know in advance it's gonna be painful.
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, but for the cause of the kingdom, yes, this is our answer is your will be done.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_02: Right because Jesus did that.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_02: Like Jesus cracked that open for us that we could we could go ahead and do it.
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, wow.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_02: So that there's a that's not like a pretending to be like Jesus, that is that's in like as redeemed, like redeemed sons and daughters of God in Christ, that's in us.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_02: Like, wow, that's wild.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_02: That's a pause moment to just say, Oh, woo, like what's actually in my DNA in Christ, yeah, that the enemy is scared to death of because he knows he can't stop it.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_02: It's uh totally this woman, this man in Christ, they have the ability to walk through stuff they they absolutely do not want to do.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, and I just I think there's I mean, there's something beautiful and entirely profound about just that moment that uh we get law, it gets lost in the Easter story, and we go, yeah, I know, and Jesus sweat drops of blood.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_01: And as if like if you've grown up, you know, sorry, he didn't sweat drops of blood, he sweat drops like drops of blood, or you get what I'm saying there.
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, and and uh uh I think the thing that it just I know the paradox to which you are referring to.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, but I just I think I think it's really I think it's really like we lose you know, there's so much about the passion, like the passion week that we we focus on, right?
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_01: We focus on the upper room discourse, we we focus on the cross, the death, the resurrection of Jesus, all of that, which uh we should.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but maybe maybe that that moment, like that was the crux moment, yeah, right?
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_01: That was the moment happening or not, right?
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_01: This was that was the the moment the final the final surrender happened, yeah, right.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_01: I suppose.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_01: I and I guess I'm you know we're just we're riffing here, so it's like I'm not trying to make things, but I just see it seems to me, let me say it that way.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_01: It seems to me that that was the the the modeling or the beginning of or the pinnacle moment of humanity's modeling humanity's surrender to the plans and purposes of this is what it looks like to reign in this life.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, it's Jesus like Jesus showed it right there, right?
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_02: And open opened the possibility of that for all of us.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_02: We can that we can be that.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_02: Isn't that wild anyway?
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_01: That's that's awesome.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_01: This isn't why we this isn't even what we were gonna plan it on talking about today.
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_01: But but I uh but but in in you know in sort of like a moderately cobbled together segue.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but I you know, again, like I think you know, the thing, the thing that really, you know, that Jesus modeled even in that moment was you know, we was that there there are things, like even his relationship with the Father, even with how he went through that moment, there were so many things that were happening in the in the invisible, right?
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, there were so many things, you know, in in his heart, uh, in and around him.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_01: There were there were there were many things that were happening in the unseen in that moment.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_01: So in the eternal.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's you know, that's uh that's where we wanted to get to today is like really how the kingdom that we live in in Christ, yeah, is is uh most frequently, and again, there are evidences all around us, but it's rooted in what we can't see.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_02: And so like just to call our attention and maybe just spend a little time chatting through what our you know how that impacts us, and just maybe just yeah, well, you know, it's uh yeah, so that the the the scripture that kind of maybe launches or anchors this conversation or both, Paul said, so we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen, since what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_02: Um yeah.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_01: Well we like it's so easy to just just live in the world that we see.
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_01: It's so easy.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_01: Like here's here are the relationships around.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_01: Here's the here's the challenge in front of me.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_01: Stuff I have to do.
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_01: Stuff I have to do.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_01: I have to show up to work, I gotta do my job, I gotta, you know, uh, I gotta do all these things.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_01: I gotta do chores around the house.
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_01: I have to, whatever.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_01: I have to do, I gotta take care of my family, I have to change the oil on the car, right?
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_01: Right?
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_01: Like I, or I have to cook dinner, whatever, like whatever it is.
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's just so easy because we're we're going through this life, and it's so easy to sort of be distracted by the things that we can see, right?
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you know what I'm saying?
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_02: I do, I do, and you know, I think so phrases you might find in scripture like the basic principles of this world, right, is a phrase you find in scripture.
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_02: As, and I'm just gonna, for the sake of our conversation, say that is a limited way to understand life.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, you through the basic principles of this world.
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, there was so much about the Passion Week and the process leading up to it, and coming out of it, frankly.
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_02: The Jesus rising again from the dead or from the dead, and the tomb is empty, and he's alive and fellowshipping with people.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, so much of that goes against the basic principles of this world.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_02: Like, yeah, of course, Jesus didn't want to follow through on this bitter cup he's gonna have to drink because the basic principles of the world says it's not gonna work like that.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_02: Like this is a defeat.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_02: And so there was to me, I would say I would lump in the scene, I would lump the basic principles of this world.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_02: The unseen in my framework is are the things of heaven.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_02: And so Jesus teaches us to pray, God, may your kingdom come and your will be done on earth as it is in heaven.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_02: There's a there's a sense to that that I could say, may your kingdom come and your will be done in the scene as it is in the unseen.
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_02: It's like uh there are ways that we see God, God's hand directly working in the scene and we glory in it.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_02: It's not inappropriate, right?
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_02: But what would what is limiting and inappropriate and doesn't produce kingdom results is me approaching stuff from a the basic principles of the world.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_02: Like I uh I don't like the situation and conversation I need to walk in and have, and so if I just avoid it, I won't have to suffer pain.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and I get this conversation done as quickly as I can, great, perfect.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_02: My week and go on.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, well, that's not really looking at it from uh a kingdom of heaven perspective, like a like a heaven's perspective is there's time to have the important conversations, there's time to do the thing that it seems hard to do, and and I can actually move through it in a mature way, and I'm gonna see really cool God results.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm thinking of seen and unseen and from that place of uh of not not so much just being in awe of angel sightings and having visions and that kind of thing, although I love all that stuff.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_02: I'm thinking of it well, here's the way I kind of stumbled into it this morning, Anthony, is I was trying to figure out what was on my heart, partly because of my age.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_02: Everybody listening, I'm a I'm a 60 plus dude, and so part of what I'm gonna say right now comes from the zone of life I'm in.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_02: But I think it's probably applicable everywhere.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_02: But I just marked this down the more I grow up in Christ, the more I appreciate the unseen dimensions of life, right?
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_02: And I and I think what I was meeting the Holy Spirit in, which was really beautiful, was him coaching me and saying, Dan, don't get discouraged by limitations in the scene, but don't don't get discouraged with that because there's a lot actually happening in the unseen more than more than you can appreciate, Dan.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_02: Like there's actually progress happening.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_02: There's actually you can trust what's happening in the unseen, and don't get discouraged by ways that maybe my body at my age can't, you know, can't like operate the way I'm used to.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_02: He's saying at my age, like, don't, hey, don't worry about that.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_02: There's actually lots going on in the unseen.
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_02: And I it probably always was happening.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_02: But when I was 30, 25, 20, oh my gosh, yes, I was not aware of how much valuable stuff was going on in the unseen because my scene reality felt like it was pumping pretty good.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_02: The old like, and maybe this is true for our the elders among us.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_02: Hey, let me encourage you.
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_02: You probably have an appreciation for the unseen that younger generations need to know about.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_02: Like you need, like you're a portal in a sense where they can be blessed by a portal.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_02: Hey, why not?
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_02: Hey, that that you you can bless others around you by saying there's no need to lose joy.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_02: Like the basic principle of the world says, okay, I like that, like your your human limitations, that okay, you gotta work on those because how are you gonna get stuff done for God?
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_02: And I believe the Holy Spirit wants to say, okay, like I hear that, but you're actually part of something that counts on a different source.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_02: It's an unseen source.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I think, yeah, and I think I think for me, the the unseen, like that's who we get into, like motives of the heart.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_01: We get into uh faith.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_01: Faith, like things like joy, things in the in the supernatural, right?
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_01: So there's these there are these elements to like and ideas that we we talk about that are very intangible, like you can't actually smell, taste, and touch them, right?
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_01: So but you can you can you can observe them if you have eyes to see them, right?
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_01: So you can say, well, you know, and we do and and we do do this, but we may do this rather unconsciously, right?
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_01: If someone how many times have you how many times have you had a conversation and someone says something that uh rubs you the wrong way and you're like, why did they say that?
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_01: What was going on there?
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_01: Right, right.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um you know what I'm saying?
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_01: Like I think, and again which is a question about the unseen, right?
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_01: It's a question about the unseen, right?
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_01: So or someone does the motive it does something, someone does something, uh, whether they do something generous, and then uh in a minute you're sort of going, like, well, why did they do that?
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know if that was were they doing that because they wanted to be generous, or they wanted to be seen to be generous, right?
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, so there's so there's this element for sure, there's this element for sure of like motives of the heart that I think is very connected to because I, you know, again, like uh, because there are influences, right?
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_01: There are there are powers at work in us, whether for good or for evil, right, that do play that do bear influence on the the human heart.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_01: Right, right.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_01: And by the human heart, I mean the enemy would love to grab those out of the house.
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely, absolutely, absolutely.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_01: And I mean, I mean not the muscles, I mean, you know, the core of who we are.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_01: And so there are these forces at play.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think one of the things is that like that just paying attention more and more.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_01: And I and I know that as believers, we, you know, this this is very true, but I think it's like, okay, so how much like I need so I'll say let me let me throw this in as well.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_01: Like, we have talked quite frequently about heaven's perspective.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_01: We have talked about, you know, even from a prophetic angle, see with the eyes of God.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_01: We don't look to see someone's dysfunction coming out.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_01: We see what how were the how did God make them?
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_01: And and that's that's a very unseen angle.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, right.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_01: That's a very unseen perspective.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: And so the more and and and I would say this too, it seems like the more and more I am walking with the Lord, the more that I I tend to view things from that perspective and also realize that I may have been doing it all along.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_01: Like I can see, I can see times in my life where it was like, okay, I can see good or bad.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_01: I can see myself kind of like, oh yeah, I was sort of focused on the unseen in that in that situation.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_01: And so and so I think it's like this this idea of like like the Lord, it's it's I guess it's like maybe I maybe I can say it this way.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_01: Humans are wired to see the unseen.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_01: Because we're made in the image of God.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_01: So and I know the the wording is tricky because we only we commonly understand seeing things with our eyes.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_01: But yet seeing, you could, you could, I don't know, you could say being aware of.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_01: So we're wired to see the unseen.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_01: And it's per let's just say we were wired to perceive the unseen.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_01: So we're wired to be aware of what's going on under, you know, under the surface.
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_01: And so by that default wiring, and I think the challenge is is that in Christ, there is a definite perspective about what's happening there.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_02: So we again, I'm just trying to what a beautiful spiritual practice to realize because we're wired the way you were describing, right?
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_02: I need I need to intentionally surrender that and keep it surrendered to the spirit.
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_01: Right, because the seeing happens, the best seeing the unseen happens with Christ.
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_01: The way it was sorry, uh, not just the best, but the what we could say the the way it was designed.
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_01: The way we were designed to see in the unseen is in Christ.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_02: Cause I so this morning, as I as I kind of journeyed through my prayer time, we I mean, I know we've talked about the scripture a lot, so we don't have to go deep into it, but the whole, you know, if unless you remain in me, you can do nothing.
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_02: Like, like remaining in Christ involves what you're talking about.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_02: Like to me, remaining in Christ is intentionally, hey, whatever whatever I become aware of as I as I as I am aware of the unseen, as I fix my eyes because I'm wired this way, I'm the unseen.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_02: I want to do that in Christ.
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_02: Like I want to remain in Him in that process.
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_02: Uh God to be surrendered to your perspective on things on earth, God, and let your kingdom come.
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_02: That that is the that's a shift it brings.
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_02: Like I'm looking at the very same to-do list, the very same responsibilities, paying the same bills, da-da-da-da.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_01: You could say, and I could say that again, like you so and maybe I'll say this like we'll there are probably if you could probably do if if you're walking with the Lord, He's He's working to get you to work from this angle.
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, right, because he has this is his perspective.
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_01: And I was just thinking with the eternal purposes of God, right?
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_01: So, so that's a very much an unseen thing.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, right.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_01: So that you could be you could be at work, yeah, you you know, doing your thing, you could be about the day to day doing ordinary things, and yet there are things going on that we can't see that are actually being accomplished.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, right.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_01: So it in terms of like what's happening in you, like the the work that the Holy Spirit is doing in you and the work that the Holy Spirit is doing through you, yeah, may are very much sort of like superimposed over you being at work.
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe it's a conversation, maybe it's a maybe it's a a prayer time, right?
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_01: Like maybe it's sitting at your desk or driving in your car, having a moment with the Lord.
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_01: And those are the things that that like you're thinking, well, I'm just I'm just uh I'm just an Uber driver, or I'm just a you know, uh school teacher, or I'm just a like that's the seen part of it.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_01: Totally, but the unseen part of it is this thing that's like, okay, something else is happening here other than me, you know, teaching this class.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_01: At the same moment, I'm also interceding on their behalf.
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_01: I'm declaring identity and and and the God's heart over these kids.
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_01: Or it's the it's the you know, it's the cop who's who's driving, and he's you know, maybe he's dealing with a domestic situation, right, right, right.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_01: And and yet there's something there are he's walking into a situation in Christ, into a situation where there could be all kinds of dark things happening.
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_01: Oh man.
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_01: So there's that's a great illustration.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_01: So it's like there's there's the eternal purposes of God that are happening, right?
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_01: Superimposed over what what the scene thing is about your life.
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_02: Right, right.
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_02: So that police officer who maybe that very morning has prayed, glorify yourself through me, Jesus.
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_02: Yep.
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_02: I want to do this for your glory, can surrender my day to you.
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and the shift starts at seven, yeah, and now it's 10:30 in the morning, yeah, and he's called into a domestic dispute situation, right?
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_02: Chaos.
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_02: And he might in that moment say, Well, I guess that prayer didn't work.
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_02: Because now he's like feeling a bit frantic and I don't know how to quite solve the situation.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_02: So he's saying, Well, I know here's what I'm supposed to do.
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_02: I'm gonna do the appropriate things according to the procedures of the law, but boy, I feel like I'm in the weeds here when it comes to glorifying Jesus.
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_02: I would say for that police officer, trust that God's at work.
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_02: Like, yes, like you, it's that ability to trust in that situation.
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, God's doing the thing I asked him to do, whether I can see it or not.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_02: Like it's trusting that the unseen is happening.
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, like somehow in the life of this person, maybe in the life of my partner, who knows?
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_02: And you that God's doing something because I trust the unseen.
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_01: Because I think and it and I think that we we and again, you don't have to have all of this mastered, right?
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_01: Like you don't have to, right?
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_01: Like you don't walk around, nor do you have to walk around thinking, now what's really going on here.
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_01: It's usually the rearview mirror when I go.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely, right?
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_01: Like, and I think that's I don't think the Lord, I think the Lord, I I don't, and again, I don't know.
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_01: I don't, I'm not gonna say one way or the other, but I do, I do think that the Lord knows our frailties, he knows our weakness, he knows our design.
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_01: And again, I think it's like it's like, okay, so Anthony, all I want you to do, like the Lord comes, you know, he's just saying, all I want you to do is remain in me, depend on me, spend time with me.
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_01: And trust me with taking care of what's happening in the unseen.
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_02: I'm working all things for good.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_01: Like this is like there's a part of part that's coming.
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_01: 100%.
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_01: Because I think there's the part, there's the part of like, uh I if I get too far down the unseen route, yeah, then I can, you know, then that could probably I could start to superimpose my my idea of performance on how that happens.
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, yeah, right.
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_01: I can start to feel good or bad about what's happening in the unseen when I have very little, very little control over it.
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_01: My trying to control things, I can't exactly because I'm trying to focus on the unseen.
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_01: And then let's let's say you could probably get into a little uh witchcraft witchcraft or a cult trying to influence that without ever intending because you're trying to manipulate things.
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_01: And so so, but I think I think the idea, I think really think the idea is the things that we do in the in the unseen or the things that we partner with the Lord in.
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's the real paradigm, is that he invites us into that place.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_01: So anything that we any influence that that we have or um that he invites us into happen with him.
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_01: And we and and oftentimes it's like, you know, that I get invited into just a prayer moment, right?
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_01: It can look like just simply praying for people.
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_01: It can look like uh, you know, obviously like a prophetic word or a uh or some something like that.
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_01: And the the part our partnership with the with the Lord in the unseen can look a lot like seen.
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_01: Do you know what I'm saying?
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_01: I do, I do.
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_01: Like like living in the by living in this scene and our connection with the Lord, yeah, things happening are happening in the unseen, and we're just you know, I'm just well that's that I love that because at this table.
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I love that, you know, because there's the there's a verse in in 1 John which where uh the NIV translates it, um, if anyone claims to live in him, yeah, they must walk as Jesus did.
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, well, you can take that and pretend to be like Jesus.
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_02: And think, there, I'm a Christian.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_02: It's like, no, I think you missed what John was really meaning.
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_02: The way the way Jesus walked it out, including what did he depend on?
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_02: Depend on those same things.
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_02: Like he was anointed by the Holy Spirit and he went about doing good.
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_02: Like it's the it's a triune partnership.
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_02: And I was saying it's just this I mean, we said this before, like uh we've talked about that.
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you, John, Pastor John Thompson from his book, I believe convergence turned me on to that principle of operating as Jesus did.
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but but you know, even Jesus, John 5.19, this is sort of one of my favorite scripture verses.
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_01: I can't so he says he says this thing, right?
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_01: Like he says, the son of man can only do yes, uh can't do, can't do anything outside of what he sees his father doing.
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, absolutely.
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_01: So and and you're like, and can you imagine like hearing that going, uh, where's the father, right?
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_01: Right, and what is he doing?
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_01: Right, right, but Jesus is how can that be a sustainable plan?
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_01: Or yeah, right, because uh as far as I know, I don't know, number one, I don't know who this father is, yeah, because this is the the first time Jesus is presenting right God as a father.
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_01: Um and also like we're where what is he doing?
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know who is this who is this father, and and I have not I have not seen anything that he's done.
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_02: And you expect me to follow a messiah who can do nothing except what he sees the father doing?
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_02: Like what like what is right, yeah.
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_01: But and we know this in a strange thing.
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_01: And again, we know this in we have the gift of the last two thousand years to say, oh, Jesus was talking about.
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_01: But to be in that crowd that day.
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely, right.
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_01: But there's the there's this thing of like, okay, so Jesus was un like he was dropping a bomb there about things that are happening in the invisible, right?
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_02: He's actually saying this is good news, you guys.
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, like like the things that are gonna happen in the next five minutes are not because I'm a human in human limitations, right?
• 34:17
  SPEAKER_02: I am I am the son of God.
• 34:20
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I am I've taken I'm the word-made flesh, yeah, I'm the son of man, son of God.
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_02: I am gonna do this thing, but I want everybody to know the good news is we're not gonna let human limitations stop us.
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_02: Like we're we're doing what we see the father doing.
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_02: Like that's like mind-blowing, right?
• 34:39
  SPEAKER_02: Um totally.
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so I uh I stumbled across a poem.
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know if I don't know if we've ever recited a poem on our podcast.
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_02: This is the first.
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_02: So I've recently been another one of the Malcolm Guite fans.
• 34:53
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, yes.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and so somebody uh shared with me about this book.
• 34:58
  SPEAKER_02: Um uh the name of the book is After Prayer.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_02: And uh anyway, it's it's uh I won't go into the format of the book, but but he writes a uh poetic verses about prayer.
• 35:11
  SPEAKER_02: And he writes this, he writes this one poem called Heaven in Ordinary.
• 35:16
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 35:16
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, and and here it is.
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, because high heaven made itself so low that I might glimpse it through a stable door or hear it bless me through a hammer blow and call me through the voices of the poor, unbidden now, its hidden light breaks through amidst the clutter of the everyday, illuminating things I thought I knew, whose dark glass brightens even as I pray.
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_02: Then this world's walls no longer stay my eyes.
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_02: A veil is lifted likewise from my heart.
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_02: The moment holds me in its strange surprise.
• 35:56
  SPEAKER_02: The gates of paradise are drawn apart.
• 35:59
  SPEAKER_02: I see his tree with blossom on its bow, and nothing can be ordinary now.
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_01: That's good.
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_01: Isn't that cool?
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_01: That's great.
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_01: Because I think you know, uh one of the one of the thoughts that come to mind when talking about that is like from Heaven's perspective, nothing is ordinary.
• 36:23
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 36:24
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, right, as part of the wild paradox of it.
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 36:29
  SPEAKER_01: And that's why that's why we can say, and when, you know, people have said this, like in the middle of your day, if you're changing diapers or you frustrated at your kids or screaming, or you're, you know, in a dead-end job, or cleaning up a mess you made, cleaning up a mess, uh, cleaning up a mess you made, or doing something difficult, right?
• 36:48
  SPEAKER_01: That the or or or maybe your your days feel like they just are monotonous and they just go on and on.
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_01: Boredom, right?
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_01: Boredom.
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_01: Like you just hate your job.
• 36:58
  SPEAKER_01: It's the same thing over and over again.
• 37:01
  SPEAKER_01: The invitation in all of those moments is or the truth in all of those moments, let's say, is that that mo those those days uh if you have eyes to see, are not ordinary.
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_01: They're not mundane.
• 37:20
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 37:20
  SPEAKER_01: They can be with the eyes of heaven filled with wonder.
• 37:25
  SPEAKER_01: And they can be filled with connection and moments and transcendence.
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_01: If if we have eyes to see that.
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 37:35
  SPEAKER_01: And so, and so I just that's a just a thought of like anything, and I think that's the that's a truth that sort of hit me, you know, when I first heard that.
• 37:44
  SPEAKER_01: It was, oh, from heaven's perspective, right?
• 37:47
  SPEAKER_01: Nothing is ordinary.
• 37:48
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 37:49
  SPEAKER_01: Every moment is meaningful, right?
• 37:51
  SPEAKER_01: It has meaning.
• 37:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 37:53
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_01: But we're we we get stuck in like boredom, right?
• 37:58
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 37:59
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 37:59
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 38:00
  SPEAKER_02: Well, it's too, it's too easy to say, uh, you know, because Paul does say the unseen things are eternal.
• 38:07
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 38:07
  SPEAKER_02: It's too easy to think chronologically concerning that.
• 38:10
  SPEAKER_02: You know, like, oh, well, so that's for later.
• 38:13
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 38:14
  SPEAKER_02: It's like, no, wait a second.
• 38:15
  SPEAKER_02: It means there's in turn, like you said, there's eternal stuff going on now.
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 38:21
  SPEAKER_02: In that monotony.
• 38:23
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_02: And because yes, the I was, I was for anybody, for any journalers out there, the people who love the journal, you know, sometimes you you start into a sentence thinking you knew what you wanted to write.
• 38:37
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 38:38
  SPEAKER_02: You get part way through and you're like, oh, I don't want to say it that way because I don't even agree with the thought I was just going to mark down.
• 38:45
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 38:45
  SPEAKER_02: And you just you sometimes it takes you a while to finish a sentence when you're when you're writing.
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 38:51
  SPEAKER_02: But I think part of that is that I was wrestling this morning to write down what what about this thing?
• 38:58
  SPEAKER_02: What what's what's got me?
• 39:00
  SPEAKER_02: And I think it was what you referred to, the intentionality of my of my eyesight.
• 39:06
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 39:07
  SPEAKER_02: Like, like what I'm willing to see on this on this day, in this day.
• 39:14
  SPEAKER_02: I know the things I need to do, the things I've committed to doing, but how will I see those?
• 39:20
  SPEAKER_02: That I feel, Anthony, that that's on me.
• 39:23
  SPEAKER_02: Like, yeah, I can't make myself see the unseen, but I can surrender.
• 39:28
  unknown: Yeah.
• 39:29
  SPEAKER_02: I can say, I would really love God to see the unseen today.
• 39:35
  SPEAKER_02: I want to fix my eyes on the unseen today.
• 39:37
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 39:38
  SPEAKER_02: That part is on me.
• 39:40
  SPEAKER_02: I could, I can refuse.
• 39:43
  SPEAKER_02: I can say, no, I I am gonna stay in my funk and I am going to be bored and and and just hate this day, but I'm gonna get through it.
• 39:54
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you know, thank you, God, I'm gonna get through it.
• 39:57
  SPEAKER_02: But but meanwhile, meanwhile, there's an opportunity for me to say, oh, but like by faith, I I God, I will look for I'll look today for the unseen.
• 40:10
  SPEAKER_02: If you'll show me, I'll look.
• 40:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 40:12
  SPEAKER_01: And I would say this too.
• 40:14
  SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna say, I'm gonna just just lobber grenade uh that's mostly thought through, but not completely.
• 40:23
  SPEAKER_01: I would say if we are bored, it's because we aren't seeing things appropriately.
• 40:30
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 40:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 40:32
  SPEAKER_01: Because again, like that's the next statement.
• 40:34
  SPEAKER_01: Like if we say that every moment is every moment from heaven's perspective isn't ordinary.
• 40:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 40:41
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 40:42
  SPEAKER_01: If I become bored, that means that I have lost sight of the unseen.
• 40:50
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 40:50
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm and again, I'm I'm saying that I think, I think with like I think with a decent measure of certainty, right?
• 40:57
  SPEAKER_01: Because again, like I'm not saying about like it's not it's not that we're not doing anything or we're not at rest.
• 41:04
  SPEAKER_01: It's not that's not the point.
• 41:05
  SPEAKER_01: But the point is, the point is uh it's the it's the this the the state of being bored.
• 41:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 41:13
  SPEAKER_01: I'm stuck, right?
• 41:15
  SPEAKER_01: It's a negative feeling, and I'm stuck here in this moment, and I have you know, I have no ability to to change, or my my emotions are such that I don't, you know, I'm I'm trapped somehow in this moment, right?
• 41:32
  SPEAKER_01: And there's nothing to do, and I can't, and I and I'm and and again, like in that in that place, that will like I'll just say, well, I need something to entertain me.
• 41:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, right.
• 41:45
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, and again, that can lead to good and bad for sure.
• 41:48
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 41:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but the but the point is is the boredom, right?
• 41:53
  SPEAKER_01: Or maybe maybe it's like the boredom, God allows us to be bored as an invitation.
• 41:59
  SPEAKER_01: I'm just saying, I'm like working it through, like it could be a bunch of things, but I'm just saying, like if I've but at the very least, if I become bored, that means I have lost sight of what's what's really going on in this moment.
• 42:12
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 42:13
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 42:14
  SPEAKER_01: So it's like I become more aware of Kronos time than Kairos time.
• 42:19
  SPEAKER_01: Right, yeah.
• 42:20
  SPEAKER_01: Something like that.
• 42:21
  SPEAKER_02: And and so, and again, I just you know, I'm like if that right, because I'm I'm feeling like you know, boredom feels negative most times.
• 42:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, like like I think boredom is different than rest and at peace.
• 42:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, that's right.
• 42:36
  SPEAKER_01: Boredom is like, I need to be, I need to be doing something, right?
• 42:41
  SPEAKER_01: Right, and that's not always true.
• 42:43
  SPEAKER_02: So the possibility in the day we live in that to have nothing apparently to do, that's that territory is something you shouldn't enter.
• 42:56
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 42:56
  SPEAKER_02: Whereas from heaven's perspective, it's like, ooh, what could be discovered right here?
• 43:02
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 43:02
  SPEAKER_02: Like if if I'm realizing that even in moments where I have nothing on the agenda to do, I don't need to be afraid of that moment.
• 43:12
  SPEAKER_02: Because I there's a certain fear, I think.
• 43:15
  SPEAKER_02: I I can relate to the the fact in my own my own wrestling and struggling over the years of my my own personal stuff, you know, we all have stuff.
• 43:23
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, sometimes I don't want to be alone because I don't trust myself when I'm in a feeling I'm in a certain state.
• 43:32
  SPEAKER_02: Yep.
• 43:34
  SPEAKER_02: I don't have to fear that because of exactly what we're talking about, because the unseen realm, because as a one who's in Christ, there's the opportunity for me to say in the face of a moment, like, wow, yeah, I don't know if I can trust myself with this moment because I don't have an agenda.
• 43:54
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 43:55
  SPEAKER_02: Many people keep themselves busy to stay out of trouble.
• 43:57
  SPEAKER_02: It's like, okay, well, that's better than getting an agenda.
• 44:01
  SPEAKER_02: It's not unwise to for sure.
• 44:03
  SPEAKER_02: But there's an opportunity in that moment to say, ooh, maybe I could step into new territory to say, God, you know, touch my eyes, help me to see into the unseen, which I know is happening around me.
• 44:19
  SPEAKER_02: What would you want me to think about right now?
• 44:22
  SPEAKER_02: What?
• 44:22
  SPEAKER_01: What would you want me to see?
• 44:23
  SPEAKER_02: Like, right.
• 44:24
  SPEAKER_02: And it might be that you're a person who doesn't go for a walk.
• 44:28
  SPEAKER_02: Suddenly you feel inspired in that moment.
• 44:30
  SPEAKER_02: The Lord goes, Well, why don't you just go for a walk and I'll talk to you?
• 44:35
  SPEAKER_02: Totally.
• 44:36
  SPEAKER_02: I don't want to do that.
• 44:37
  SPEAKER_02: Well, let's see what happens.
• 44:39
  SPEAKER_02: Give it a shot.
• 44:40
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it gets, you know.
• 44:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 44:43
  SPEAKER_01: I think I think it's good for us to have a healthy, well-rounded understanding and a paradigm for what the unseen is.
• 44:52
  SPEAKER_01: Because the unseen, again, we've hit so much about what the unseen is, right?
• 44:57
  SPEAKER_01: It's the there are all kinds of things going on, and it isn't, you know, like we're hitting up a thing here, but it's it's also the eternal, like it's back to the internal purposes of God.
• 45:09
  SPEAKER_01: It's the motives of the heart, which is sort of connected, but it's really that there are ultimately in this place that, you know, we live in a world that we can we can that's very tangible, but to understand that like there are all kinds of forces around us, you know, good and bad.
• 45:29
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, there's a there's a battle going on for our attention in the unseen.
• 45:35
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 45:35
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 45:36
  SPEAKER_01: And again, so it's just the it's just the idea as believers that in Christ there is a there is there is something that he's trying to get us to understand about that.
• 45:50
  SPEAKER_01: There's something that he's trying to get us to to to see about that, is really from a from a scriptural perspective that no more that no more moment is ordinary, that there are greater things that will last, right, forever.
• 46:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, you know, it isn't about the not yet, but you can do something today that will impact either your life free for forever or somebody else's life for forever.
• 46:15
  SPEAKER_01: Wow, and this is the again, like this is the the place that like with God under his leadership that that we get invited into.
• 46:26
  SPEAKER_01: Man, right?
• 46:26
  SPEAKER_02: Or yeah, that we get invited into the you yeah, you man, you you said something very powerful.
• 46:33
  SPEAKER_02: All that was good.
• 46:35
  SPEAKER_02: There was like a thing you said right in the middle of it about our attention.
• 46:40
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 46:41
  SPEAKER_02: And the question just comes up to me, like, who has my attention?
• 46:48
  SPEAKER_02: Like, who has my attention?
• 46:51
  SPEAKER_02: We we we place very we place too little of a value on this God-given attention.
• 46:59
  SPEAKER_02: Like the value of who like where are we allowing our attention to go?
• 47:07
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 47:08
  SPEAKER_02: Like the like we that is incredibly, I don't know what you call it, but like it's like the there's a lot of worth in our attention.
• 47:17
  SPEAKER_02: Like if the enemy has my attention today, yeah, he can make a lot of stuff happen through that.
• 47:22
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 47:24
  SPEAKER_02: If God has my attention today, yeah, he can make a lot of stuff happen through that.
• 47:30
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 47:30
  SPEAKER_02: And but I can be haphazard about my attention.
• 47:33
  SPEAKER_02: All I know is that I'm in a moment and I want something that feels good and helps me feel motivated and whatever it is.
• 47:43
  SPEAKER_02: Just give me something that just brings the spark back to my day.
• 47:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 47:47
  SPEAKER_01: And again, attention isn't is we're designed for this, right?
• 47:51
  SPEAKER_01: Like, and again, like this is where you get meditation, you get uh like meditating on the word of God.
• 47:57
  SPEAKER_01: I'm choosing to put my pay attention, yeah, focused attention to the in this is where worship comes from.
• 48:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, we yeah, thank you.
• 48:08
  SPEAKER_01: Again, like it's it comes from yes, we all worship something, right?
• 48:12
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and so really that's just the idea is like we're we're designed to pay attention to something.
• 48:21
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's just it's a very powerful pay.
• 48:25
  SPEAKER_01: That's interesting.
• 48:25
  SPEAKER_01: Ah, there you go.
• 48:26
  SPEAKER_02: Where we get that like pay, like pay attention.
• 48:28
  SPEAKER_02: It's an investment, right?
• 48:29
  SPEAKER_02: Yep, yeah.
• 48:30
  SPEAKER_01: And it will, and it will uh it is an investment, and it will either rob you or reward you.
• 48:37
  SPEAKER_01: Cheapers, we are dropping bombs.
• 48:39
  SPEAKER_02: I am so glad we're chatting today.
• 48:41
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like as the point, as the point I feel more wealthy at the every moment.
• 48:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 48:45
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm good.
• 48:46
  SPEAKER_01: So maybe uh I can't.
• 48:48
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe I'll pray.
• 48:48
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's my turn to pray.
• 48:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 48:52
  SPEAKER_01: So um, so Father, we just come before you, Lord.
• 48:55
  SPEAKER_01: We just thank you, God.
• 48:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, just thank you for your presence, and we thank you for your nearness, Lord.
• 49:02
  SPEAKER_01: We thank you for your love, your tender affection towards us.
• 49:09
  SPEAKER_01: And God, I just pray for for us, Lord, uh, that we as your people would have grace to have our eyes fixed on what is unseen.
• 49:22
  SPEAKER_01: And so, Lord, uh God, would you take and work through this conversation, Lord, for your glory and for your purposes, Lord, in your people.
• 49:33
  SPEAKER_01: And God, I just pray for uh someone who might be uh struggling right now with where they are in their life, God.
• 49:41
  SPEAKER_01: Would they uh would you give them eyes to see, Lord, the greater reality that you are with them, that you are in them, that you are for them, yes, and that you love them.
• 49:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, Lord.
• 49:57
  SPEAKER_01: And so, God, I just pray, Lord, would you give us all uh help?
• 50:01
  SPEAKER_01: Would you help us all with eyes to see what we should be seeing?
• 50:06
  SPEAKER_01: Help us in the way that is by your design, Lord, help us to also, you know, echo the your words, Lord, uh, that you know, the Son of Man can only do what can't do anything outside of what he sees his father doing.
• 50:23
  SPEAKER_01: So we want to partner with you.
• 50:25
  SPEAKER_01: We want to see what you're up to.
• 50:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 50:27
  SPEAKER_01: We want uh with the help of the Holy Spirit to live a life that sees the unseen, live a life that's uh focused on what's eternal, Lord.
• 50:37
  SPEAKER_01: So I pray this.
• 50:38
  SPEAKER_01: I just pray uh for everyone listening, Lord, would you give them an amazing day with you, Lord?
• 50:43
  SPEAKER_01: May they know your nearness in profound ways.
• 50:46
  SPEAKER_01: In Jesus' name, amen.
• 50:49
  SPEAKER_01: Amen.
• 50:52
  SPEAKER_02: Well, that's a wrap on this episode.
• 50:54
  SPEAKER_02: It's been a privilege to have you as an honored guest as we all learn to hear God better.
• 51:00
  SPEAKER_01: If your time with us has been encouraging and you think this conversation will be helpful to others, we would love it if you could share this podcast with the people around you.
• 51:10
  SPEAKER_01: Until next time.