Latest / The Price of Music / Kate Nash's OnlyFans "punk protest", Drake's legal action against Universal and Spotify over Kendrick Lamar track

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Kate Nash's OnlyFans "punk protest", Drake's legal action against Universal and Spotify over Kendrick Lamar track · The Price of Music

• 1:07
  Hello and welcome to The Price of Music, the show that looks at
• 1:10
  the money behind the music industry with me, Steve Lamack
• 1:12
  and Music Allies Head of Insight Stuart Dredge.
• 1:15
  Have you been limbering up in the gym again with your drum and
• 1:17
  bass playlist in readiness to record this?
• 1:21
  I did go to the gym and I played it and that's, you know, that's
• 1:24
  half the foul. Right, doing once.
• 1:26
  Now I can wait till next September to go again, so it's
• 1:28
  all good. And were your ears burning on
• 1:31
  Thursday night when I bumped into your boss Paul from Music
• 1:35
  Ally at the FAC MMF Awards? Yeah, I got I got a message
• 1:40
  later on saying I met your Co host tonight after the event.
• 1:43
  And so my eyes were burning retrospectively wondering what
• 1:45
  my two, you know, my my 222 colleagues who who sort of both
• 1:51
  know. Well, good.
• 1:52
  Or bad I am, they said some very complimentary things about you,
• 1:55
  which I won't embarrass you with.
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  Now it's probably worth mentioning though, actually the
• 2:00
  all the award ceremonies which are happening around this point
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  of the year, because I was saying to somebody the other day
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  that seems like there's a music related awards ceremony almost
• 2:09
  every week at the moment. And then they said, well, that's
• 2:12
  because all these organisations are looking at their budgets and
• 2:15
  the award ceremony is one of the where you can make a bit of
• 2:19
  income because it can't speak for the FAC featured artist
• 2:22
  Coalition or the MMF, the Music Managers Forum, but it is, it is
• 2:26
  true for a lot of people. You can raise, you can raise a
• 2:29
  decent sum of money through awards dues because you're just,
• 2:32
  you're not just selling, you know, the tickets, selling the
• 2:34
  tables, but you're also selling the, the sponsorship of certain
• 2:39
  awards. Unfortunately there are a few
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  big companies around who are still willing to pay for the for
• 2:44
  the privilege of getting to present an award and having
• 2:46
  their go in the programme, which is is good for the good for
• 2:50
  their profile at these. And by the way, musical I did in
• 2:54
  fact have a have an awards last week as well.
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  There you go, you see. I think yeah, it's good.
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  I mean, the thing I like about them is actually, and I think
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  you probably the managers 1 was like an example, the FAC one,
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  like awards now, not just about the big companies winning.
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  They're about shining a light now I think on some of the
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  people coming through. And that's why I always like not
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  just seeing who's the best biggest of the year, but who are
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  the young We have like an emerging marketer award ours.
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  I think they have like young manager awards elsewhere.
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  Those are the ones I like best now because they're they're kind
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  of like, who's the next people who are going to change things?
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  Tickets are still available for the live awards next month, by
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  the way. Just so I've mentioned that.
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  Anyway, it's a bumper week of news.
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  Lots to get through, including Kate Nash's attempt to put bums
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  on seats. Also how you can buy shares in
• 3:40
  Queens royalties, sort of. We'll come to that in a bit.
• 3:44
  To start though, Drake claims that Spotify and his own label,
• 3:49
  Universal Music Group, worked to, and I quote, manipulate and
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  saturate the streaming services and airwaves with Kendrick
• 3:58
  Lamar's diss record. So you've got to pick this
• 4:01
  apart. Start starting with the
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  background and the the song at the centre of this.
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  Yeah, this is one of the things I wake up to in the morning, and
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  it's broken overnight. And I'm like, oh, my God, So
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  many ways I can get sued by talking about this or writing
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  about it. But yeah, I mean, do you
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  remember earlier this year there was this, this.
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  Well, I think they've been beefing for a while, but
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  Kendrick Lamar and Drake, it ramped up.
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  And they just released this flurry of beef tracks accusing
• 4:24
  each other of all kinds of things.
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  And it was like over a succession of days, just every
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  track would come out every day from 1:00 or the other.
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  And it kind of ended with I guess you'd call it a victory on
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  points for Kendrick Lamar. And it was said, well, he seemed
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  to get the better of it. It ended with a big concert that
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  Amazon live streamed where he performed this track called Not
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  Like Us, which is I'm trying to explain it.
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  It's the one where he basically insults Drake by calling him a
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  paedophile sense of the the tone of it all.
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  And he'd got half of L as rap scene on stage to dance to it.
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  And it was kind of like a right, here's the track.
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  And then so that happened, and it didn't quieten down.
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  And I think everyone basically thought, right, Kendrick Mark
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  kind of won that beef. But now they're both going to go
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  away. They'll come back.
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  Drake will still be a huge star. Neither has been harmed in long
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  term. But it turns out that what Drake
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  was went with. He went away.
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  And he's come back with illegal action.
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  Yeah. Accusing his own label of
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  essentially collaborating with Spotify to make Kendrick Lamar's
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  diss track a hit. And what?
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  In what way? How?
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  How was how he's accusing them of doing what exactly?
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  Well, so the one, the other thing to say is this is not a
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  lawsuit yet. He's not suing them.
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  It's it's what's described as like a, a, a petition to compel
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  pre action disclosure. So what he's looking for is
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  information from both companies that he might use for a lawsuit
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  and he wasn't to preserve any evidence.
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  So it's not a lawsuit yet, but it's a preparation for that.
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  And yeah, basically he says there's one accusation where he
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  says UMG charged a lower licensing rate to Spotify for
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  Not Like Us in order to get it promoted, which that sounds
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  like. It's not a secret thing.
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  It's a thing called Discovery Mode, which we've talked about
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  before, where you can say to Spotify promote this track and
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  I'll take less royalties for it. It sounds like he's referring to
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  that, but they also accused UMG of paying for bots to
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  artificially inflate streams of the Kendrick track.
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  It says that it accused him of paying Apple to get the Siri
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  Voice Assistant to play Kendrick Lamar's song when people were
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  requesting Drake. And it's a really.
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  I mean if it wasn't such a serious legal thing, it'd be
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  funny. It suggests that when people
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  were asking for Certified Lover Boy, which is a Drake album, it
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  was playing the Kendrick track because of the line that says
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  Certified Lover Boy then makes a makes that insult.
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  It accuses UMG of sucking staff who are associated with or loyal
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  to Drake, and it mentions, even throws in radio payola.
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  So it's a real litany of accusations that are very
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  serious. And again, the fact that this is
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  Drake's own, well, Drake has one of those deals universal.
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  The details are slightly shred that he may have ownership of
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  his master, but he's got a very big deal with them that kind of
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  includes recordings and publishing and merch.
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  And I think 2 1/2 years ago when they signed it, it was trumped.
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  Is this really, really big deal with the world's biggest artists
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  and the biggest label? So it really is like kind of
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  blowing up the bridges with his biggest partner.
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  I mean, these are these are very serious accusations as well,
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  aren't they? This is not, I mean that the all
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  of them, I mean, individually would be whites.
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  I mean, they, they're not the sort of things that UMG are
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  going to take lying down. They're very, they really
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  impinge on the reputation of the record label.
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  How, how have they responded? I imagine they've come back
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  quite quickly. Have they?
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  There was a very quick statement, yeah, which all the
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  media outlets have, which is that the suggestion that UMG
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  would do anything to undermine any of its artists is offensive
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  and untrue. We employ the highest ethical
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  practices in our marketing promotional campaigns and no
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  amount of contrived and absurd legal arguments in his pre
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  action submission can mask the fact that fans choose the music
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  they want to hear. So yeah, quite a punchy
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  response. And it's one of those things
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  like like Universal Music is it's, I mean, you've probably
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  seen this. It's famously competitive in
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  house that labels within UMG compete with each other really
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  through like like their kind of not in the same family.
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  So when the Kendrick Lamar song came out, Interscope, which is
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  his label, the universal, they would have really heavily
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  marketed. There's nothing kind of strange
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  going there. Like you like one bit of
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  universal marketing this song by Kendrick Lamar, whereas
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  Republic, I think, which is what Drake was works with, would have
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  been promoting his songs. So there's no suggestion that
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  no, they shouldn't have been promoting a track.
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  But as you say, the details are very specific and very and what
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  he's what the what the legal action is is looking for is
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  right. And I want to get information
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  from you on how you promoted this track.
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  I want to see e-mail, you know, so it's it's very much trying to
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  find that. But and we should come on to our
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  regular end of legal story thing here.
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  I can't imagine either side has anything to win from this going
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  to a long court battle and then a judgement like there's so much
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  to lose, both in terms of what the information that will come
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  out and the potential of of losing.
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  You know, if Drake loses and they say no, it's just a really
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  popular song that that that that hammers you.
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  And for Universal, like, even with no wrongdoing, it doesn't
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  want the whole industry to read the details of how Interscope
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  promoted a particular song like that is that's just kind of so I
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  mean, I would be really, really surprised if this this goes to
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  court in the end. But it does it does spell out
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  the thing of what happens now, Like what is what happens to
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  Drake in the Universal Music Group, this big partnership?
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  You know, it's very hard to see the path back where they trust
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  each other again. And Drake and Spotify, I mean,
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  Spotify has been one of the biggest supporters of Drake's
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  music over the past kind of decade and a half.
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  And So what does it mean for that relationship in the future?
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  So it is there's a lot of unanswered questions here,
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  regardless of how far this this goes legally, I think.
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  So it's, I mean, following on from that, maybe we should, we
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  should, we should do the Young Thug story, which I don't know
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  if anyone's saying this, but live entertainment company AEG
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  has filed legal claims against rapper Young Thug, saying that
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  he violated their contractual agreement by selling his music
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  catalogue for $16,000,000 without their consent.
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  Yeah, it's a strange 1 isn't it? Because I read this headline and
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  I thought why is a live company involved in someone's record,
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  you know, music catalogue like these two separate areas.
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  So what's happened here? So yes, Young Thug reportedly
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  sold a portion of his catalogue in 2021 for $16,000,000 but the
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  the claims here is in 2017. So 4 years before that his label
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  by itself got a loan from AG for 5.25 million and put his
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  compositions up as collateral for that loan.
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  So when they gave him the loan, his catalogue, which he later
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  sold, was put collateral and he reportedly defaulted on a loan.
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  But AEG is saying, no, hang on, this is an unlawful depression.
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  And it says that he lied to the buyer of his catalogue about
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  there being no legal issue about it.
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  So when someone buys your music catalogue, they would ask you,
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  are there any legal things we should know about, like, you
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  know, for anything? And so they were, AEG is
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  accusing him of not disclosing that.
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  So now it wants to recover what it's owned owed.
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  It wants to get royalties from those songs and the report I was
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  reading, so that it's going to decide in the next six months
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  whether to also sue additional parties, which I guess would be
• 11:25
  other companies involved in that.
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  So it's, yeah, it's quite again, once strong partners falling out
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  quite spectacularly. Here's a headline Music bigger
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  than cinema Shock News stats claim new figures show that the
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  global value of music copyrights was more than 45 billion U.S.
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  dollars last year, a massive increase on the previous year,
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  and takes music above the movie industry, if I'm reading this
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  right. Yeah, yeah, it is really, this
• 11:57
  is one, this is an interesting piece of annual research that
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  Will Page does. So we've talked about him
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  before, haven't we? He used to be chief economist of
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  Spotify, and now he's like an author and industry commentator.
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  You know, he works on a lot of kind of pieces of research.
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  And So what he does is he takes these three sources of data.
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  He takes the recorded music revenues that the IFPI puts out.
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  He takes the Global Collecting Society collections numbers that
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  an organization called CSAC puts out, and he also gets the money
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  made by publishers from their direct licensing deals.
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  So it's these kind of three sources of data and money being
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  made from music copyright, whether that's recordings or
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  publishing. And then he kind of, I'll use
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  the, the economics term here. He schmoozes them all together
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  to, to figure out the and it's quite important because I think
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  we often talk about the figures from the IFPI, the recordings
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  figures. It's like this is the music
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  industry size, but they don't include publishing.
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  So this is like an attempt to say, well, what if you count
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  also songwriters and the one who's being made from their work
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  and you've And that is 45.5 billion, which is just over £36
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  million. And as you say, that's a big
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  rise. It's up 11% year on year.
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  And I think in his report, Will says that when he first did
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  these calculations in 2014, it was $25 million.
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  So it's possible that next year when he did it for the 10th
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  time, they may have doubled if they reached 50 billion.
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  So yeah, he described it as boom time for copyright, which is
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  kind of interesting because we we talk about the threats, don't
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  we? And that's kind of the worries
• 13:23
  people have. But in terms of the actual money
• 13:25
  that songs and recordings generating, he's still seeing
• 13:28
  healthy growth, which is where cinema comes in.
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  So the comparison here is quite specific.
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  It's to box office cinema revenues.
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  So it's like ticket sales for films, but it's not money that
• 13:41
  films earn from being on streaming services or TV.
• 13:44
  And though, yeah, but box always were 33.2 billion last year,
• 13:48
  which makes music copyright bigger than cinema.
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  Although I was, I went down. Can I get another massive
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  tangent here, which is what I often do with data story.
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  I was like box office ticket revenues.
• 14:01
  We've talked about this before. Actually, that's not the whole
• 14:03
  story. Popcorn is also the story, isn't
• 14:05
  it? In the cinema.
• 14:06
  It is the money made by films. And so I went digging and I
• 14:09
  found that cinema concessions, which is basically snacks are
• 14:13
  predicted you're worth $36.7 billion this year.
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  And popcorn is 40% of that, around $14.7 billion.
• 14:22
  So if you're being facetious, you might suggest that popcorn
• 14:26
  is bigger than music publishing nearly.
• 14:28
  But, but yeah, look at the comparison of, of cinema to
• 14:32
  music. And, and this is like, I mean,
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  it doesn't really mean much. It's, it's whether you're
• 14:35
  growing, it's the important thing.
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  And that is the nub of this report, that that for all the
• 14:39
  kind of stresses around AI and other things, music copyrights
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  value is growing overall. That's it.
• 16:22
  Yeah. And this is this one needs some
• 16:24
  unpacking because it touches on something we're both very
• 16:27
  comfortable talking about, which is the live touring economics.
• 16:30
  And then it touches on the politics of sex work, which is
• 16:33
  something that I think neither of us, no one really needs us to
• 16:36
  be telling them on the podcast about that.
• 16:38
  But it's very important here. And the other thing I want to
• 16:41
  say is, like, Kate Nash doesn't need either of us to tell her
• 16:43
  what she should be, should or shouldn't be doing with her
• 16:45
  career. Like, you know, she's always
• 16:46
  been very independent, hasn't she?
• 16:48
  And she's taken her decisions and she's, I think she's had her
• 16:50
  feel famously of men in the industry telling her what to do.
• 16:53
  So we're not going to do that. But it starts last week.
• 16:57
  So yeah. So Kate Nash posted, and I'm
• 16:58
  going to quote the Daily Mail here because it made me laugh.
• 17:01
  She posted a quote racy snap of her bare bottom on Instagram,
• 17:07
  which I always like it when a Daily Mail talks like someone's
• 17:09
  grandparent pursing their lips in a, you know, surprise.
• 17:13
  And she said she was creating an only fans account, which, as
• 17:16
  we've talked about before, is the kind of the crowdfunding
• 17:18
  service best known by being used by the adult entertainment
• 17:22
  industry but has also attracted some musicians, including Lily
• 17:25
  Allen, who we talked about a few weeks ago.
• 17:27
  And what Kate said was she had a slogan, butts for tour buses.
• 17:31
  And basically she said touring makes losses, not profits.
• 17:34
  Help me stay on tour, pay great wages and put on a high quality
• 17:37
  show by being a buying a piece of my arse or merch.
• 17:41
  And she also told fans, don't worry about steering my music.
• 17:43
  I don't need those tiny royalties.
• 17:46
  And so, yeah, essentially setting up and only fans to make
• 17:48
  money to carry on with a touring work, pay all the people around
• 17:51
  her work. And that ignited this kind of
• 17:54
  media Hoo ha, with lots of coverage, lots of articles, lots
• 17:58
  of social media comments, not just on what was happening, but
• 18:02
  whether it was a good thing or a bad thing.
• 18:04
  And lots of people giving their, you know, two pennyworths.
• 18:08
  To the point where Kate posted on the Instagram post this
• 18:10
  weekend, actually sort of pushing back.
• 18:11
  And she said, like people have been saying, this is very sad to
• 18:13
  see. And she was like, it's not.
• 18:15
  It's very empowering. Selling pics of my arse is fun
• 18:18
  and funny. And she talked about it as being
• 18:21
  about women being in control of their bodies.
• 18:23
  It's not a shameful thing. She talked about sex work and
• 18:26
  that not being a shameful thing and the idea if you're in
• 18:29
  control and setting your own boundaries, this is something
• 18:31
  empowering. So that was her point.
• 18:33
  And then she returned to the core idea of like touring is
• 18:35
  difficult and nobody would have cared much if she just said
• 18:39
  touring is difficult. And this wonderful quote, which
• 18:42
  is my arse, is shining a light on the problem.
• 18:45
  Honestly, I'm such a legend for this.
• 18:49
  So that's that's her point of view.
• 18:53
  I think before you go, before you go on, I think the
• 18:57
  conversation that this has created again, a bit a bit like
• 19:02
  Lily Allen, obviously shining a light on the fact that, you
• 19:06
  know, streaming royalties don't amount to much money for a lot
• 19:11
  of artists, even, you know, quite big artists or people who
• 19:14
  have perceived to be quite successful.
• 19:16
  And this is doing a similar thing for live music.
• 19:20
  It's I think it's getting, getting it, getting it home to
• 19:24
  fans of certain musicians who, you know, we all grew up
• 19:28
  thinking, well, they're on a stage.
• 19:30
  They're, you know, they've sold some records, therefore, you
• 19:32
  know, they must be minted and they're again, this comes back
• 19:37
  to this old thing where people even now people say, oh, you
• 19:41
  know, going out and playing live.
• 19:42
  That's where bands make their money these days.
• 19:44
  Well, it was, but not so much anymore unless you are at the
• 19:49
  top level of, of touring. So I think it it brings this,
• 19:54
  you know, putting puts the finances of touring very much in
• 19:59
  the public eye, which, you know, that's a good thing.
• 20:02
  It is. And she's and she's not saying I
• 20:04
  want to be rich. She's saying I want to be able
• 20:06
  to sustain my career. But also I want to pay my pay
• 20:09
  the people who work with me, pay my crew.
• 20:11
  It's very much framed in that way.
• 20:12
  It's about putting on a good show and making sure everyone
• 20:15
  who works on it gets gets fairly rewarded.
• 20:18
  It's not about wanting, you know, So, yeah, you're right.
• 20:21
  And and this is like, this is created a, a big media storm.
• 20:24
  And I think even in the reports that are focused on the bum
• 20:27
  aspect, the touring has come into it.
• 20:30
  They explain what she's doing. So she has it.
• 20:31
  And she said something, I think, you know, this wouldn't have
• 20:33
  been on the front page of Reddit.
• 20:34
  It wouldn't have been on the media if I hadn't done this.
• 20:38
  But I mean, the flip side said that there are there are
• 20:41
  alternative opinions. And again, I just want to be
• 20:44
  careful when saying I've talked to some friends in the industry
• 20:46
  I trust. I've been following some very
• 20:47
  interesting threads on social media that have been more
• 20:49
  thoughtful. And there are a lot of people
• 20:51
  who are supporting Kate and decisions saying this is about
• 20:53
  empowerment, It's a pragmatic decision.
• 20:55
  She's in control. And there are also women in the
• 20:59
  industry who are saying they're not so comfortable with this and
• 21:02
  the way it's being framed. And some of that is about is it
• 21:07
  great that someone who's, you know, a talented position needs
• 21:11
  to use only fans? You can't sustain her touring
• 21:13
  without it. Some people are talking about
• 21:15
  the way the music industry has not great record of, of
• 21:18
  objectifying women sexually. And is this a step backwards to
• 21:22
  that? Some people talk about privilege
• 21:24
  and this idea of like, are we saying that you can only sustain
• 21:27
  touring if you have the kind of body that would be considered
• 21:30
  worth putting on only fans? So there's a kind of a that's
• 21:33
  one, one view. And then I saw some people, some
• 21:37
  women in industry posting saying they were just really tired and
• 21:39
  exhausted by the fact they've been fighting for so long to
• 21:43
  kind of be recognised for their skills and their experience and
• 21:46
  their hard work. And they worry that this might
• 21:50
  take people back to the idea of, well, if that's not good enough,
• 21:53
  which body part could you stick on only Fans to make money from?
• 21:56
  So I think there is there's a lot of support and there's a lot
• 21:59
  of people saying, actually, I'm not really comfortable with
• 22:01
  this, not necessarily having a go at her, but they're just,
• 22:05
  they're uneasy about this idea that only fans is emerging as
• 22:07
  the kind of the full back factor.
• 22:10
  And I was talking to people we know about Only Fans and it's
• 22:13
  this platform. It's weird.
• 22:15
  Someone was saying that actually, there are people on
• 22:17
  there who have wonderful niche support communities.
• 22:19
  They post their stuff and they have lovely people subscribing
• 22:24
  to them and it's very, very positive.
• 22:28
  Other people have gone on there and they felt in control and
• 22:32
  then suddenly within weeks they have a lot of horrible men.
• 22:35
  It's always men messaging them saying I'm paying for this, I
• 22:38
  want you to do X&YI want photos of this and that.
• 22:41
  And it can be quite a a, a challenging, toxic place.
• 22:47
  And I've heard people were talking about that and saying,
• 22:49
  look, we don't it's the the story isn't great.
• 22:52
  I go and only fans put photos up.
• 22:53
  It's brilliant there. There can be a flip side and
• 22:56
  that's something that should be talked about.
• 22:58
  And again, what Kate Nash has done is raised that
• 23:00
  conversation. So in a way, I think she's
• 23:01
  shining a light on these issues too.
• 23:04
  But in terms of, in terms. Sorry, I was just going to say
• 23:08
  it's, it's the, the question is how, how have we, how have we
• 23:11
  got to this? I think that's one of the points
• 23:13
  that Kate is making, isn't it? And I know we've touched on this
• 23:16
  before and it's something which the FAC we mentioned earlier
• 23:20
  have tried to highlight the, you know, the artists are
• 23:22
  increasingly finding it harder to make their finances, make the
• 23:25
  finances of touring certainly work.
• 23:28
  And we've seen a handful of tours cancelled this autumn
• 23:30
  already because artists have realised that they have just how
• 23:34
  much they're going to be out of pocket by the end of it.
• 23:37
  But the problem is there's a thing just to balance, balance
• 23:40
  this out as well. Although Kate says, you know,
• 23:44
  the, the costs of, you know, touring, that's petrol,
• 23:48
  accommodation and all these things, they've all gone up,
• 23:52
  which is which is true. But on the other side of things,
• 23:55
  the prices of everything that the venues do as you know, or
• 23:59
  have to pay for, that's gone up. And at some points, you know,
• 24:02
  with, like with energy prices, they've probably gone up quicker
• 24:07
  than anything else. You know, rent, rent, energy
• 24:11
  prices, so many of the bills that venues have to pay, they're
• 24:16
  up to. So, so there's very little give
• 24:20
  in this live music equation at certain levels unless you push
• 24:23
  the ticket price up. And if you push the ticket price
• 24:25
  up, then you risk people being put off or unable to afford to
• 24:28
  go and see in the first place. So this is this is the problem,
• 24:32
  isn't it? That's this is where this is
• 24:34
  where we are again, The and I think she actually says, doesn't
• 24:38
  she at one point in one of the interviews, like, you know, the
• 24:41
  live music? Well, the music in I think she
• 24:43
  says just the music industry is broken.
• 24:46
  Well, that's it. And I want I see this is this is
• 24:49
  where I've tried to present my opinion is I want a world where
• 24:52
  we fix, we fix those touring issues so that going on only
• 24:55
  fans becomes your choice because you want to do it and not not
• 24:59
  like a well, I can't make money from touring, but this might
• 25:02
  work. I I want it to be like a
• 25:03
  completely free choice. And and that is it.
• 25:05
  I think when this, this current media thing subsides, we can get
• 25:09
  back on with that, right? What are we going to do about
• 25:11
  touring? How are we going to fix this?
• 25:13
  How are we going to help venues support artists?
• 25:15
  So hopefully. Oh yeah.
• 25:17
  But yeah, I mean, it's one of those things I think where we'll
• 25:22
  see, we'll see how it goes. But I, I don't know when she's
• 25:26
  on tour at the moment, I think. And she's engaging with the
• 25:30
  criticism and, and I think we'll hear more from her.
• 25:33
  And I think that's the thing. Her voice is being heard most
• 25:35
  loudly in this saying why she's doing it.
• 25:36
  So we'll see how it turns out. Space.
• 25:39
  Yeah. And all this again, obviously
• 25:41
  plays into the argument that the more profitable promoters and
• 25:44
  maybe even some of the more profitable artists could, could
• 25:47
  help fund the lower levels of live music with some kind of
• 25:51
  levy or donation or contribution to the running costs of venues.
• 25:58
  I mean, if there, you know, if there was more money, it's well,
• 26:01
  not just grassroots level, but theatre level as well, because
• 26:03
  some of the theatre level venues are struggling too.
• 26:07
  Then artists would have a stronger argument, wouldn't
• 26:10
  they, for upping their fee. Because Kate's, Kate's saying,
• 26:12
  you know, everything, you know, all our costs have gone up,
• 26:16
  except our fee hasn't for all the reasons which, you know,
• 26:20
  we've explained already. But best of luck to you, Kate.
• 26:25
  Right. This is this is an interesting
• 26:28
  one as we learn that fans can buy shares in Queens royalties.
• 26:36
  Well, they sort of can, but only in specific songs.
• 26:39
  But if you fancy having a tiny percentage of a queen song, this
• 26:45
  is this is what this is what to do.
• 26:47
  This is the story. Just in time for Christmas as
• 26:49
  well. Yeah.
• 26:51
  Well, you know, we there was a lot of speculation this year
• 26:52
  about like how Sony Music was going to pay a billion dollars
• 26:55
  to buy Queen's Music catalogue. So it seems strange now that
• 26:57
  someone is selling shares in it to fans.
• 27:01
  But this company is called Songvest.
• 27:03
  They're like a start up that gets fans to invest in music
• 27:05
  rights. And there are a few of these
• 27:06
  around like you can buy a share of this song and you'll get
• 27:09
  royalties from it. And so they're selling Queen
• 27:12
  song shares and and then like it's not obscure tracks.
• 27:15
  It's like under pressure. It's a kind of magic.
• 27:17
  I want it. Oh, and the show must go on as
• 27:19
  well as the soundtrack for Bohemian Rhapsody, the film.
• 27:23
  And it's all very upfront about what this is.
• 27:25
  It's not the band members royalties.
• 27:27
  It's not the right to do. It's a guy called David
• 27:30
  Richards, who who is dead now, but his estate and he was a
• 27:33
  producer. He worked with Queen of studio
• 27:34
  and the tracks he gets he he or his estate now got producer
• 27:40
  royalties, but also some artist royalties because he played and
• 27:42
  he played piano under pressure. You know, he, he was actually in
• 27:45
  the studio working on these with him, right?
• 27:47
  So he had a share of royalties, including public performance,
• 27:50
  streaming and mechanical revenue.
• 27:53
  And you can actually go to somewhere site and you can get
• 27:55
  figures for each track and say, right, what were the royalties
• 27:58
  for that track for that share, his share.
• 28:02
  And I think I looked up under pressure, the PPR royalties were
• 28:05
  just over £1000 in the second quarter of this year for his
• 28:08
  share, right? So it's not big money.
• 28:10
  And then you, you, you were dividing that by however many
• 28:12
  shares that this company sells. So as a fan, you're not going to
• 28:17
  get rich off under pressure. But it's more about fandom.
• 28:20
  I think it's more about I have a share in this song I love, but
• 28:23
  this band I love. And you get a certificate and
• 28:26
  you get a vinyl replica you put on the wall and you kind of, you
• 28:29
  feel like a shareholder, even though I don't think you're
• 28:31
  going to make, you know, your fortune.
• 28:34
  No, but but you do. You do own part of a Queen song,
• 28:38
  though. Now, if if you're at a party, as
• 28:43
  a guaranteed conversation starter, I owe I own part of
• 28:48
  Queen's catalogue. I mean, you don't have to say
• 28:50
  how much you know, You don't have to say it's the it's a
• 28:53
  grain of sand in a desert of Queen.
• 28:57
  But that's the thing. It's, I mean, I think as well,
• 29:01
  because of the way music has developed this, we're going to
• 29:04
  see a lot more of this. Like you'll often see, oh, I
• 29:06
  think I've, I've remember what the song was.
• 29:08
  You'll see like, oh, get a share of a Justin Bieber track and it
• 29:11
  will turn out to be one of the song 1 of the 8 songwriters on
• 29:14
  the track. Yes, yeah.
• 29:16
  And so there is, there is often the headline is these are the
• 29:19
  song, the famous songs. And actually, often it's a, it's
• 29:23
  a lot more clouded over exactly whose royalty share you're
• 29:27
  getting a share of. Whereas with Song Vest, they're
• 29:29
  being very upfront. You can go on, you can see the
• 29:31
  exact details and the payments. So I think we're going to see
• 29:34
  more of this. But yeah, it's a, it's, I mean,
• 29:36
  the other thing is it's a, you can reserve these song shares in
• 29:39
  Queen, but they have to get financial approval in the US
• 29:42
  before they can actually sell them.
• 29:43
  So at the moment, you're kind of putting your name down for it,
• 29:46
  but you can't buy it. You may not get it in time for
• 29:49
  Christmas. This is something which points
• 30:55
  past Christmas to the new year. BBC Radio 1 Sound of 2025 long
• 31:00
  list has been announced and it's thrown up some interesting names
• 31:04
  this year. For anyone who doesn't know what
• 31:06
  it is, the Sound of Pole, it was started on the BBC website, I
• 31:10
  think back in 2003 and it was in the beginning, it was quite, it
• 31:15
  was fairly sort of indie rock heavy, I think in the early
• 31:18
  days. And then, although I haven't
• 31:21
  said that, I think $0.50, I think was the first winner atop
• 31:25
  the first pole. And then it was keen.
• 31:29
  And then the bravery, which I think is when I started
• 31:32
  questioning the sanity of some of the judges.
• 31:34
  Yeah. But there was, I mean, there
• 31:35
  were only about 30 judges when it when it started.
• 31:39
  And the thing was in its early days.
• 31:42
  I mean, it really was. I mean, it obviously it makes
• 31:44
  sense because she was upon that $0.50.
• 31:49
  Oh, yeah. Well, of course, you know, 50
• 31:50
  Cent. Well, that seems obvious, but it
• 31:52
  was before 50 Cent had a had an album out and when Keen topped
• 31:58
  the poll, they hadn't released an album.
• 31:59
  So it was, it was a list of people who had yet to make a
• 32:03
  breakthrough in any significant way.
• 32:06
  It really was a, you know, it was a proper tipsters list
• 32:08
  saying these, these are the ones to watch that you might not have
• 32:11
  heard of. Now here we are 20 years down
• 32:14
  the line and I don't, I don't know how many people take part
• 32:17
  in the voting process now. Last time I heard, I think it
• 32:19
  was, there were more than 100 people from the music industry.
• 32:23
  It's 180 now, I think A. 180 people, 180 what they informed
• 32:30
  people are we saying anyway, it's so the poles become, I
• 32:35
  don't know, the artists they're being featured increasingly have
• 32:39
  a certain level of profile already, which which is when you
• 32:44
  pointed out the message to me this week, which which means
• 32:46
  this year there's there's quite a few familiar names in this
• 32:49
  tipsters list of people to watch out for next year.
• 32:54
  There are and I've been on a journey with a story because
• 32:56
  when I first read it, I was like, this is ridiculous.
• 32:59
  And then as a it's made me think about the whole nature of our
• 33:02
  media, which which I'll get onto.
• 33:04
  But yeah, so like the the big name that people have been
• 33:07
  pointing out is Chapel Rhone, who had a number one album in
• 33:10
  August. This.
• 33:11
  Year. I was going to say the unknown
• 33:13
  Chapel Rhone. Yeah.
• 33:15
  She's, she's literally, she's very much 1 of this year's big
• 33:18
  breakout artists and she, she's already been number one in the
• 33:20
  UK. They've got English teacher who
• 33:22
  won the Mercury Prize this year. They've got Ezra Collective who
• 33:25
  won the Mercury Prize last year. They've got confidence man who,
• 33:29
  who on their third album been heavily playlisted, played
• 33:31
  through a massive crowd at Glastonbury.
• 33:33
  They've got kneecap who could be in the running for an Oscar.
• 33:35
  Like a lot of artists who I would have, like you say, in the
• 33:39
  old days of it, I would have thought they would have been
• 33:41
  tipped last year for what they've done this year for my
• 33:43
  exam. Yeah, absolutely.
• 33:45
  Early. Tips yeah and it and so let me
• 33:49
  try my theory out on you because I was thinking this is crazy who
• 33:51
  is there at home as a tipster going yes chaperone's a bit next
• 33:54
  big thing when she's kind of playing big but it did make me
• 33:58
  think like is is the I. So that I think there's a phrase
• 34:01
  that they use like this is artists who have the best chance
• 34:03
  of mainstream success in the next 12 months.
• 34:07
  And it kind of made me wonder what is mainstream success now?
• 34:10
  Because we're sort of living in our own filter bubbles
• 34:13
  increasingly based on what our streaming service recommends to
• 34:16
  us or what we listen to on the radio and media is fragmented
• 34:20
  too. I'm not sure we have that kind
• 34:21
  of, I don't know. I guess Top of the Pops is the
• 34:23
  new equipment that show that everyone watches.
• 34:25
  So if as a big artist, your mum and dad will have seen them as
• 34:28
  well as you. Like, I feel like we're all in
• 34:30
  these little. So maybe it's true, like
• 34:32
  mainstream Britain doesn't know who Chaparron is still.
• 34:35
  Like maybe nobody knows who won the Mercury Prize outside
• 34:39
  Mercury Prize. Interested people.
• 34:40
  Like maybe this is kind of an accidentally clever comment on
• 34:43
  the on the whole fragmented nature of music listening and
• 34:46
  media today is that you can have a number one album, but most of
• 34:49
  the country has no idea who you are still.
• 34:52
  Which makes these kind of tips to list difficult, isn't it
• 34:54
  Because you're going would we pick the thing that I don't
• 34:58
  know, maybe that's a rubbish theory.
• 34:59
  What do you think? No, that's an interesting that
• 35:02
  is an interesting points. So I think then well then you
• 35:08
  have to look at the list in a completely different way.
• 35:10
  And OK, if a Chapel Chapel Rhone yeah, that would fit that
• 35:18
  perception of what what it is. Well, that function, if you're
• 35:20
  saying that's the function is to, you know, find somebody
• 35:23
  who's going to be right at the centre of people's mine.
• 35:28
  So some, you know, would be as famous to everyone as the
• 35:32
  Glastonbury Festival is. Everyone in the country knows
• 35:35
  what it is or who they are. If that's what we're tipping
• 35:37
  for, then there are artists on that list who are not going to
• 35:41
  be that. So it's sort of, it doesn't work
• 35:43
  for one description of the, you know, what it stands for and it
• 35:49
  kind of doesn't work for the other one.
• 35:50
  It's kind of a mishmash, I think.
• 35:52
  Now this list, do you see, do you see what I mean?
• 35:55
  It's either it's these are some obscure names who are going to
• 35:58
  have a pretty good year in our world, or it's these are some
• 36:03
  more famous names. So we're going to go up a level,
• 36:06
  but it's going to be one thing or the other.
• 36:08
  Do you know, maybe the one, But I'm slightly thrown by the fact
• 36:11
  that you've come up with this alternative explanation as to
• 36:15
  what it's for because. Well, I don't know if they're
• 36:17
  thinking this though. Maybe wonder though.
• 36:19
  But you know, do you know why it what saves it?
• 36:21
  I feel it vindicates me. I'll tell you why.
• 36:24
  So if you so I, I, I can't I, I think I heard the the first
• 36:28
  confidence man song boyfriend on on a friend recommended it years
• 36:31
  ago when it first came out and I was like, this is wonderful,
• 36:33
  It's amazing. And then they signed to Heavenly
• 36:36
  and they came over and played the social in London, which is
• 36:38
  tiny venue. I saw them then I was like this,
• 36:40
  I love this, I love this. But it was all men of my age who
• 36:42
  remembered Screaming Delica and liked and liked the idea of a
• 36:45
  young band doing Screaming Delica type songs.
• 36:48
  And I remember talking to someone, someone who I, I, who I
• 36:51
  knew I would say who it was, who, who were powerful figure in
• 36:54
  radio playlisting decisions. And I was like, I love
• 36:57
  confidence man. They should be everywhere.
• 36:58
  And they were like, but do you think young people love them or
• 37:01
  is it just like men of your age who remember screaming Delica?
• 37:04
  And I was like, Oh well, actually there are a lot of us
• 37:05
  at their gigs. But then in the last year, I
• 37:09
  reckon this year, how would you say they have actually crossed
• 37:12
  over and become a band that young people are going to see?
• 37:15
  And they have, they're doing that huge credit at Glastonbury
• 37:17
  and they've, I feel they have crossed over.
• 37:19
  So I kind of, I'm now strutting around going well, I like
• 37:22
  confidence band three years ago and now they're on this tipster
• 37:25
  list. And that that justifies it
• 37:26
  entirely for me because I can, I can feel like some kind of an
• 37:30
  early, early into that particular group.
• 37:33
  What? Whatever.
• 37:34
  Whatever reason, whatever. You know, whatever job this poll
• 37:38
  is supposed to be doing, it's created again, it's created a
• 37:42
  level of discussion and the profile for the sound of poll,
• 37:47
  which I think people, some people were beginning to
• 37:50
  slightly dismiss it because there was usually one obvious
• 37:53
  winner and then some other people who might not do so well.
• 37:57
  But all of a sudden we're talking about it again, aren't
• 38:00
  we? So well done Radio One would.
• 38:04
  You remember that we talked about the Mercury Prize and we
• 38:06
  were like, we're not sure anyone really really has an effect.
• 38:09
  And so maybe it's a good thing, like English teacher get
• 38:11
  another, another shot of like going beyond people who've heard
• 38:15
  them already to people who haven't.
• 38:17
  So, you know, I mean, like, I always, you know, I always these
• 38:19
  lists, I always love these lists and people always argue about
• 38:21
  them. But there is definitely some
• 38:22
  artists on there that I'll be glad if if if they do get more
• 38:25
  mainstream and reach more people.
• 38:27
  So yeah, let's be positive, eh? OK, we'll try.
• 38:31
  Finally, for this week, a charity that provides music
• 38:34
  education is celebrating buying its sights after a three-year
• 38:37
  fundraising campaign. Yeah, we can.
• 38:41
  We can finish on a positive note because there's literally
• 38:43
  nothing bad to say about this story at all.
• 38:45
  So yeah, this is like the Gloucestershire Academy of Music
• 38:49
  who do like lessons and courses for people.
• 38:51
  I think it's from that the phrase was from 3 to 83 years
• 38:54
  old, so a real community resource.
• 38:57
  And I think they've been renting their, their premises for the
• 38:59
  last 10 years and the last three years they've been trying to
• 39:02
  raise, I think it was £500,000 to buy it, which for a local
• 39:05
  music charity that's not, you know, I think they've raised
• 39:08
  400,000, had support from the council and now they've bought
• 39:10
  it. So they have they own.
• 39:12
  They own where they do their work.
• 39:14
  Well, that is, you're right, a good, a good story to finish to
• 39:18
  finish on. Well, they're going to, I think
• 39:21
  they, they work with more than 600 people a week at the moment,
• 39:23
  but I think they were saying they can now refurbish it, get
• 39:25
  more people in, they can make it more accessible for people with
• 39:29
  disabilities. So they can kind of actually do
• 39:31
  stuff to the post. And yeah, and I think I was
• 39:33
  reading it's been going for 40 years this term.
• 39:35
  So they, although they've only rented for the last 10 years, 40
• 39:38
  years. So like it just feels like a
• 39:40
  good things happening to good people's story.
• 39:42
  And there have been so much negativity in even this this
• 39:47
  year with this podcast, we've always talked about artists
• 39:50
  struggling, venues struggling. And this is like a actually,
• 39:54
  someone is doing on this level something good and they've been
• 39:58
  rewarded for it, and now they're going to do more good things.
• 40:00
  Brilliant. And that's, that will do it for
• 40:02
  this episode. Thank you very much for
• 40:05
  listening everybody. And if you have enjoyed the
• 40:07
  show, and we hope you have, please do subscribe in your
• 40:10
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• 40:12
  word, that would be even better. If you know someone who you
• 40:16
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• 40:19
  them a nudge. You can also support the show
• 40:21
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• 40:25
  or super fan for as little as £2.00 a month.
• 40:28
  Just go to patreon.com/the Price of Music to find out more
• 40:32
  Patreon members. By the way, we will be in touch
• 40:34
  very soon about our first pop quiz nights.
• 40:39
  We're just working out the logistics, but fingers crossed
• 40:41
  that will happen before Christmas.
• 40:44
  And lastly, if you have a question which you'd like
• 40:46
  answered on the show, you can e-mail us with your queries.
• 40:49
  Anything, anything that's always baffled you about the money in
• 40:53
  the music industry, drop us a line at the Price of Music
• 40:55
  podcast@gmail.com. Until next time, look after
• 40:59
  yourselves. Bye bye.
• 41:25
  None.