Latest / Stuff Mom Never Told You / SMNTY Playlist: Religious Trauma, Episode 8

Transcript

SMNTY Playlist: Religious Trauma, Episode 8 · Stuff Mom Never Told You

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha and welcome to Stephon
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: never told your prorection of iHeartRadio.
• 0:18
  Speaker 2: And we are back for the second part, which apparently
• 0:22
  Speaker 2: there's gonna be a third part because I I just
• 0:24
  Speaker 2: can't apparently keep things together of Christianity and the marginalized
• 0:29
  Speaker 2: people and specifically the queer communities and religious trauma. And honestly,
• 0:33
  Speaker 2: I should have expected this because when it comes to
• 0:36
  Speaker 2: attacks on both women and the queer community, it is
• 0:40
  Speaker 2: non stop and it continues every day. The rhetoric continues
• 0:45
  Speaker 2: every day. So yes, this is part two of now
• 0:48
  Speaker 2: what it's going to be the three part series. Yeah,
• 0:52
  Speaker 2: three part the way three parts of this episode of
• 0:54
  Speaker 2: the series that is elongated to being like a literal
• 0:57
  Speaker 2: season and a half.
• 0:59
  Speaker 3: Yeah, okay, I just wanted to make sure.
• 1:02
  Speaker 4: Yes, you're correct.
• 1:03
  Speaker 2: And I think at the by the end of this,
• 1:04
  Speaker 2: we need to replay the entire thing in one setting
• 1:08
  Speaker 2: so that it's actually connected and people are like, what
• 1:10
  Speaker 2: is what's happening?
• 1:12
  Speaker 3: We could make a playlist.
• 1:14
  Speaker 2: I think we need to make a playlist and maybe
• 1:15
  Speaker 2: do like a feature on the Saturdays to actually just
• 1:19
  Speaker 2: recover everything.
• 1:21
  Speaker 4: I think that might be a plan that we have
• 1:23
  Speaker 4: to have.
• 1:23
  Speaker 2: So for those of you who could not take this
• 1:25
  Speaker 2: type of sad conversation enough for the first time round,
• 1:30
  Speaker 2: we may have a replay through.
• 1:33
  Speaker 4: Because we are sadistic apparently.
• 1:36
  Speaker 3: No back to back to back, where to go?
• 1:42
  Speaker 4: Right?
• 1:43
  Speaker 2: And speaking of as before content warning to all the
• 1:47
  Speaker 2: grossness and hatefulness that is tangled into this rhetoric and
• 1:51
  Speaker 2: behind the anti LGBTQ plus movement, and it includes assault,
• 1:57
  Speaker 2: sexual assault, sexual mental and physical ab use that will
• 2:01
  Speaker 2: be mentioned, all the practices and unfortunately we are starting
• 2:05
  Speaker 2: this episode where we left off all the part one
• 2:09
  Speaker 2: about how the organizations like Focus on the Family uses
• 2:13
  Speaker 2: because it didn't just use once upon a time and
• 2:16
  Speaker 2: is still using harmful practices like conversion therapy as a
• 2:20
  Speaker 2: part of their anti.
• 2:21
  Speaker 4: LGBTQIA plus tactics.
• 2:25
  Speaker 2: Oh, take a deep breath, everyone, take a deep breath.
• 2:28
  Speaker 2: Any because it's going to be a shorter episode. I
• 2:31
  Speaker 2: think because the way I wrote it, I say this
• 2:34
  Speaker 2: at the beginning knowing how many pages it is, but
• 2:36
  Speaker 2: who knows what this discussion brings. But because it is
• 2:40
  Speaker 2: a heavy topic. Conversion therapy in itself is so gross
• 2:43
  Speaker 2: and so traumatic that it is going to be just
• 2:46
  Speaker 2: specifically on that. So yeah, sorry, So let's talk about
• 2:51
  Speaker 2: the history of conversion therapy first and then we're going
• 2:54
  Speaker 2: to dive into what is happening today because we need
• 2:57
  Speaker 2: to be paying attention. So conversion therapy, when it comes
• 3:01
  Speaker 2: to the origins of conversion therapy, it is sad and
• 3:05
  Speaker 2: it is gruesome. The history of it is gross. So
• 3:08
  Speaker 2: what exactly is it. Here's what the HRC or the
• 3:11
  Speaker 2: Human Rights Center says.
• 3:13
  Speaker 4: Quote.
• 3:14
  Speaker 2: Reparative or conversion therapy is a dangerous practice that targets
• 3:18
  Speaker 2: LGBTQ plus youth and cease to change their sexual or
• 3:22
  Speaker 2: gender identities. So called conversion therapy, sometimes known as reparative therapy,
• 3:26
  Speaker 2: is a range of dangerous and discredited practices that falsely
• 3:30
  Speaker 2: claim to change a person's sexual orientation or gender identity
• 3:34
  Speaker 2: or expression.
• 3:35
  Speaker 1: And here's a bit more detail from a research article
• 3:37
  Speaker 1: for ScienceDirect dot com.
• 3:39
  Speaker 3: Quote.
• 3:40
  Speaker 1: Religion based LGBTQA plus conversion practices frame all people as
• 3:45
  Speaker 1: potential heterosexuals whose gender aligns with their birth sex in
• 3:50
  Speaker 1: a CYS gender binary model of male and female sexes.
• 3:53
  Speaker 1: Deviation from this heterosexual cist gender social identity model is
• 3:58
  Speaker 1: cast as curable sexual brokenness. And it goes into a
• 4:03
  Speaker 1: deeper explanation, saying religion based lgbtqa plus conversion practices are
• 4:10
  Speaker 1: grounded in the pseudoscientific conviction that all people are born
• 4:14
  Speaker 1: with the potential to develop heterosexual attraction and identity with
• 4:18
  Speaker 1: a gender identity that accords with that assigned to them
• 4:21
  Speaker 1: at birth. Sis gender proponents of lgbtqa plus conversion practices
• 4:26
  Speaker 1: view lgbtqa plus people as suffering from sexual brokenness that
• 4:31
  Speaker 1: can be cured. This ideology of sexual brokenness usually conflates
• 4:37
  Speaker 1: and confuses differences between sexual orientation and gender identity, seeing
• 4:42
  Speaker 1: any diversity in these attributes as having a common atiology
• 4:47
  Speaker 1: and treatment. Full membership and participation in faith communities can
• 4:52
  Speaker 1: be dependent on lgbtqa plus people of faith committing to
• 4:57
  Speaker 1: chastity and seeking healing for their sexual brokenness. The ideology
• 5:03
  Speaker 1: that informs lgbtq A plus conversion practices thus posits that
• 5:08
  Speaker 1: lgbtq A plus subjectivity and spiritual belonging are incommensurable. This
• 5:14
  Speaker 1: has led to the development of cultures that promote and
• 5:17
  Speaker 1: engage in various practices directed at changing are suppressing lgbtqa
• 5:23
  Speaker 1: plus sexual orientation and gender identities.
• 5:27
  Speaker 2: Right, and as we're speaking from the study, they're quoting
• 5:30
  Speaker 2: things like sexual brokenness, like they're putting those in quotes
• 5:33
  Speaker 2: to let you know this is what they say. So
• 5:37
  Speaker 2: I wish you could see And because she's actually doing
• 5:38
  Speaker 2: the quotes wild fingers.
• 5:41
  Speaker 3: While she's reading this flat project, I get it.
• 5:47
  Speaker 2: You can see pause, but it's quite faint. I'm like,
• 5:49
  Speaker 2: no one knows what she's doing except for me.
• 5:52
  Speaker 4: I appreciate it. I appreciate it all.
• 5:55
  Speaker 2: But we just want to like firmly say, there's a
• 5:57
  Speaker 2: lot of these things that we sound If it's sounds
• 6:00
  Speaker 2: like that sounds gross, how why would you say that?
• 6:02
  Speaker 2: Is probably quotes If we don't say that out loud, like,
• 6:05
  Speaker 2: we're gonna try to emphasize it because this is if
• 6:09
  Speaker 2: you know us, you know, this is not our language.
• 6:11
  Speaker 2: But then again, if AI decides it's still our words, oh.
• 6:15
  Speaker 4: We're in trouble.
• 6:16
  Speaker 2: Please know we are not in support of any of this. Okay,
• 6:21
  Speaker 2: I feel like we might have to put that at
• 6:22
  Speaker 2: the beginning and the end of every episode because of
• 6:24
  Speaker 2: AI changing our words around.
• 6:26
  Speaker 4: I'm kind of scared.
• 6:28
  Speaker 2: Anyway, that's a whole different episode. Of course, with this
• 6:33
  Speaker 2: type of unsanctioned and unethical practices as seen by the
• 6:37
  Speaker 2: medical community. It can be difficult to have one specific
• 6:40
  Speaker 2: term or definition. And when I say unethical and unsanctioned,
• 6:45
  Speaker 2: it has obviously been criticized and disavowed by much pretty
• 6:49
  Speaker 2: much all of the professional h organizations out there, So,
• 6:53
  Speaker 2: like the AMA, all of them have said this is
• 6:56
  Speaker 2: not correct. We don't believe this anymore, This does not work.
• 6:59
  Speaker 2: So according to a documentation from a twenty twenty UN
• 7:03
  Speaker 2: consultation on conversion therapy, it is difficult to define it
• 7:08
  Speaker 2: in a straightforward manner. The article says, it's quite difficult
• 7:12
  Speaker 2: to get a grip on what we call conversion therapy
• 7:15
  Speaker 2: or reparative therapy. There are many definitions. For example, quote
• 7:19
  Speaker 2: it is the pseudoscientific practice of trying to change in
• 7:22
  Speaker 2: individual sexual orientation from homosexual or bisexual to heterosexual using
• 7:26
  Speaker 2: psychological or spiritual interventions, in this case leaving out the
• 7:31
  Speaker 2: attempts of sub treatments to also eradicate a transgender identity.
• 7:36
  Speaker 2: An important reason why it's so difficult to define is
• 7:38
  Speaker 2: that we deal with a multitude of practices which are
• 7:41
  Speaker 2: not only offered in separate organizations that consider converting homosexuality
• 7:46
  Speaker 2: or transgender identity as their main aim, but also inside
• 7:50
  Speaker 2: the realm of churches and church services, where these practices
• 7:54
  Speaker 2: will be labeled or can be labeled as for example,
• 7:57
  Speaker 2: in exorcism that's end quotes a quote, healing ministry or
• 8:01
  Speaker 2: simply quote prayers and are predominantly seen as religious practices.
• 8:07
  Speaker 2: Another important reason for the difficulty of definition is the
• 8:10
  Speaker 2: constant change in how faith organizations label these practices themselves,
• 8:15
  Speaker 2: being very aware of the public concerns that these treatments
• 8:19
  Speaker 2: may raise. By doing so, they avoid being trapped in
• 8:23
  Speaker 2: a definition that renders their offered treatment or practices as harmful, unethical,
• 8:28
  Speaker 2: or potentially illegal from the perspective of law.
• 8:31
  Speaker 1: And Though this idea of changing or suppressing sexual orientation
• 8:35
  Speaker 1: and identity probably could be dated centuries ago, one of
• 8:39
  Speaker 1: the first recorded mentions of it was in eighteen ninety
• 8:43
  Speaker 1: nine by a German psychiatrist who claim to have turned
• 8:46
  Speaker 1: a gay man straight. According to the psychiatrists, he told
• 8:50
  Speaker 1: people at a hypnosis conference that all they needed was
• 8:54
  Speaker 1: forty five hypnosis sessions and a few trips to the brothel.
• 8:59
  Speaker 1: According to history, Through hypnosis, he claimed he had manipulated
• 9:03
  Speaker 1: the man's sexual impulses, diverting them from his interest in
• 9:07
  Speaker 1: men to a lasting desire for women.
• 9:11
  Speaker 3: Hmm. How much did he charge.
• 9:13
  Speaker 1: For these sessions anyway, and many credit this as the
• 9:20
  Speaker 1: start of the pseudoscience of conversion therapy. In the late
• 9:24
  Speaker 1: nineteenth century, doctors and psychiatrists looked at homosexuality as something
• 9:29
  Speaker 1: that needed and could be treated. It was like even
• 9:31
  Speaker 1: included in their manuals beliefs that causes of homosexuality could
• 9:37
  Speaker 1: be found in men's testicles, or that all humans were
• 9:40
  Speaker 1: born bisexual, that homosexuality was something that was conditioned, like
• 9:44
  Speaker 1: a lot of misunderstandings, right.
• 9:48
  Speaker 2: I will say so the whole like being born bisexual
• 9:51
  Speaker 2: theory was Freud. But he did not see that as
• 9:55
  Speaker 2: a disease. So give him credit for that for one thing.
• 9:59
  Speaker 2: We he did not see that as a disease, unlike
• 10:04
  Speaker 2: everybody else. And as we mentioned earlier, we were talking
• 10:08
  Speaker 2: about the way that the narrative changes and the definition changes.
• 10:11
  Speaker 2: Please keep that in mind because we're going to come
• 10:12
  Speaker 2: back to it and why that's important in this conversation
• 10:15
  Speaker 2: and all these types of theories that led us to
• 10:18
  Speaker 2: the early quote treatments and I'm putting quotes here because
• 10:21
  Speaker 2: we want to emphasize this is not true and was
• 10:24
  Speaker 2: a theory that was damaging and traumatizing, but it was
• 10:27
  Speaker 2: the early ideas and theories at the time. So quotes
• 10:31
  Speaker 2: here when I say treatments, and again a quote from
• 10:34
  Speaker 2: theistory dot com of some of the practices at the time.
• 10:37
  Speaker 3: Quote.
• 10:37
  Speaker 2: Some LGBTQ people were given electroconvulsive therapy, but others were
• 10:41
  Speaker 2: subjected to even more extreme techniques like lebotomies.
• 10:45
  Speaker 4: Other quote.
• 10:46
  Speaker 2: Treatments included shocks administered through electroys that were implanted directly
• 10:50
  Speaker 2: into the brain. Robert Gelbraith Heath, a psychiatrist in New
• 10:54
  Speaker 2: Orleans who pioneered the technique, used this form of brain stimulation,
• 10:58
  Speaker 2: along with higher process and heterosexual pornography to quote change
• 11:03
  Speaker 2: the sexual orientation of gay men. But though he contended
• 11:08
  Speaker 2: he was able to actually turn gay men straight, his
• 11:10
  Speaker 2: work has since been challenged and criticized for his methodology.
• 11:14
  Speaker 4: I would hope so.
• 11:15
  Speaker 2: An offshoot of these techniques was a version therapy, which
• 11:20
  Speaker 2: was founded on the premise that if LGBTQ people became
• 11:23
  Speaker 2: disgusted by homosexuality, they would no longer experience same sex desire.
• 11:29
  Speaker 2: Under medical supervision, people were given chemicals that made them
• 11:32
  Speaker 2: vomit when they, for example, looked at photos of their lovers.
• 11:36
  Speaker 2: Others were given electrical shocks, sometimes to their genitals while
• 11:40
  Speaker 2: they looked at gay pornography or cross dressed, which.
• 11:43
  Speaker 1: Just messed up, shall we say. And though this idea
• 11:49
  Speaker 1: was eventually dismissed and seen as cruel and traumatic by
• 11:52
  Speaker 1: the medical world, and with the psychiatric field removing homosexuality
• 11:57
  Speaker 1: from the DSM, which is a manual of say chiatric
• 12:00
  Speaker 1: disorders in nineteen seventy three, religious groups were reticent in
• 12:04
  Speaker 1: letting the practice go, and several organizers still practice it today.
• 12:09
  Speaker 1: Many religious organizations have rephrased the idea, calling it the
• 12:13
  Speaker 1: now known term of conversion therapy or reparative therapy, and
• 12:18
  Speaker 1: even just Christian counseling. Today, their methods vary, perhaps less
• 12:25
  Speaker 1: electroshock and lobotomies, but can include talk therapy, which you know,
• 12:31
  Speaker 1: there's a lot of like healthy dose of guilt and
• 12:33
  Speaker 1: shame all the way up to extracisive. Here's the quote
• 12:38
  Speaker 1: from that history dot com article. At gay conversion camps
• 12:44
  Speaker 1: and conferences, LGBTQ people were isolated from family and friends, hypnotized,
• 12:50
  Speaker 1: told to pray until their homosexuality subsided, instructed to beat
• 12:54
  Speaker 1: effigies of their parents, mocked coach on proper gin roles,
• 13:00
  Speaker 1: and told their sexuality was unnatural and sinful.
• 13:04
  Speaker 2: Right, and by the way, that idea that everybody is
• 13:08
  Speaker 2: again born bisexual and then conditioned. That's kind of still
• 13:14
  Speaker 2: a belief in some of the religious organizations, except they
• 13:18
  Speaker 2: wouldn't say that out loud, except for the part that
• 13:20
  Speaker 2: are like, you know you can resist this, Yes, this
• 13:23
  Speaker 2: is sin just calling it that way.
• 13:26
  Speaker 4: So again, a.
• 13:26
  Speaker 2: Lot of the rhetoric is very religious, and we're going
• 13:29
  Speaker 2: to see that because any I read through more Christian
• 13:33
  Speaker 2: articles that I'm so sad.
• 13:35
  Speaker 3: I believe it, Samantha why.
• 13:38
  Speaker 2: But the saddest part is I could tell you word
• 13:41
  Speaker 2: for word why they said that what they did, and
• 13:43
  Speaker 2: I taught some.
• 13:44
  Speaker 4: Of those things, and I'm very sad about this.
• 13:46
  Speaker 2: But all that to say is you're going to see
• 13:48
  Speaker 2: this turn of phrase essentially to try to convince you
• 13:53
  Speaker 2: that this is not bad for you, that we're just
• 13:56
  Speaker 2: we're trying to impede on their freedom of speech anyway,
• 14:01
  Speaker 2: So statistically it does not work, and in fact, it
• 14:05
  Speaker 2: does the opposite, oftentimes doing more harm. And here's a
• 14:10
  Speaker 2: quote from the Science Direct study. Studies have shown heightened suicidality,
• 14:14
  Speaker 2: increased drug and alcohol use, increased risk of homelessness, poor
• 14:19
  Speaker 2: mental health, and poor economic participation among people who have
• 14:22
  Speaker 2: experienced conversion practices. Studies of young people who have experienced
• 14:27
  Speaker 2: conversion practices have shown negative impacts on identity formation and
• 14:31
  Speaker 2: family relationships. Note that many survivors of conversion therapy will
• 14:35
  Speaker 2: need treatment for post traumatic stress disorder and post religious trauma.
• 14:41
  Speaker 2: In a recent Australian study, Australian LGBTQ plus youth aged
• 14:45
  Speaker 2: fourteen to twenty one years who were exposed to conversion
• 14:48
  Speaker 2: practices were around four and a half times more likely
• 14:51
  Speaker 2: to have experienced homophobic, physical and verbal harassment than those
• 14:55
  Speaker 2: who did not, and three times more likely to have
• 14:58
  Speaker 2: experienced sexual harassment. They were also at least one and
• 15:01
  Speaker 2: a half times more likely to have a mental health
• 15:03
  Speaker 2: diagnosis and three times more likely to have PTSD diagnosis.
• 15:08
  Speaker 2: They were also at an increased risk of homelessness, particularly
• 15:12
  Speaker 2: on the basis of being LGBTQ plus. Note that the
• 15:16
  Speaker 2: trauma from religion based conversion practices, is distinct from and
• 15:20
  Speaker 2: compounds already established trauma related to heteronormativity, transphobia, and homophobia.
• 15:27
  Speaker 2: In addition to these harms, identified further negative impacts anger
• 15:32
  Speaker 2: as a response to deceptive claims and mistreatment, grief at
• 15:36
  Speaker 2: loss of times, opportunity and youth, increased sense of shame,
• 15:40
  Speaker 2: escalation of high risk sexual behavior, and impairment of self
• 15:44
  Speaker 2: concept due to hyatrogenic counseling practices.
• 15:49
  Speaker 3: YEP.
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: A statistical breakdown of the harms of conversion therapy from
• 16:03
  Speaker 1: glad dot org San Francisco State University found that, compared
• 16:07
  Speaker 1: with LGBTQ young people who were not rejected or were
• 16:11
  Speaker 1: only a little rejected by their parents and caregivers because
• 16:14
  Speaker 1: of their gay or transgender identity, highly rejected to LGBTQ
• 16:18
  Speaker 1: people were eight point four times more likely to report
• 16:22
  Speaker 1: having attempted suicide, five point nine times more likely to
• 16:25
  Speaker 1: report high levels of depression, three point four times more
• 16:29
  Speaker 1: likely to use illegal drugs, three point four times more
• 16:33
  Speaker 1: likely to be at high risk of HIV and STDs.
• 16:37
  Speaker 2: So now we want to make a distinction in that
• 16:40
  Speaker 2: not all religious organizations approve of this practice. The churches
• 16:44
  Speaker 2: we mentioned in part one of the specific episode would
• 16:47
  Speaker 2: be included in those who would be against this type
• 16:50
  Speaker 2: of therapy, and many of the most spoken out again
• 16:53
  Speaker 2: to reaffirm their position. As a topic is still being debated,
• 16:56
  Speaker 2: like I've found organizations that had actual statements on their size.
• 17:00
  Speaker 2: We do not condone this, and we think a ban
• 17:03
  Speaker 2: is necessary.
• 17:04
  Speaker 1: But there are many who oppose a complete ban on
• 17:07
  Speaker 1: conversion therapy, using the First Amendment as a basis on
• 17:11
  Speaker 1: why it should not be completely banned. Religious outlets argue
• 17:15
  Speaker 1: that these types of bands target Christian ministries. Here's a
• 17:20
  Speaker 1: quote from Premier Christianity. There is no doubt that Christian
• 17:24
  Speaker 1: pastoral ministry is being targeted by activists in this area.
• 17:29
  Speaker 1: All the evangelical organizations who have encouraged responding to the
• 17:33
  Speaker 1: consultation recognize this. This very real threat is why organizations
• 17:39
  Speaker 1: that have up to now been quiet on conversion therapy
• 17:43
  Speaker 1: are now suddenly speaking out about it. Pastoral ministry is
• 17:47
  Speaker 1: a private, consensual conversation, but activists want to criminalize pastoral
• 17:53
  Speaker 1: ministry for people struggling with sexual ur gender identity issues.
• 17:58
  Speaker 1: Prayer is also a for activists.
• 18:02
  Speaker 2: Right, So, as we talked about earlier, this is where
• 18:05
  Speaker 2: it's turning it and flipping it on a script, and
• 18:07
  Speaker 2: I think it's important that we pay attention. I hate
• 18:09
  Speaker 2: that I clicked onto this to look at this, and
• 18:11
  Speaker 2: my algorithm is a truly messed up from now on.
• 18:14
  Speaker 2: I'm so sad, but this is how the rhetorics are turning.
• 18:18
  Speaker 2: And I'm not saying prayer is a bad thing and
• 18:22
  Speaker 2: that no one should be praying. That has never been
• 18:24
  Speaker 2: a thing.
• 18:25
  Speaker 4: That is a never thing.
• 18:26
  Speaker 2: Have we talked about separation of state and church and state? Yes,
• 18:31
  Speaker 2: because even in the breakdown, like different denominations of a
• 18:35
  Speaker 2: specific religion are arguing with each other. So why the
• 18:39
  Speaker 2: hell are we going to allow for something when people
• 18:41
  Speaker 2: can't in that organization. I can't even agree with what
• 18:43
  Speaker 2: it is. But that's again a whole different side note
• 18:46
  Speaker 2: for me not to be too obvious, but can we
• 18:50
  Speaker 2: once again agree that this usage of First Amendment defense
• 18:54
  Speaker 2: seems to be really one sided as per usual, like
• 18:59
  Speaker 2: Florida education including colleges being stripped completely a factual information
• 19:04
  Speaker 2: for being divisive. But hey, I guess again, I keep
• 19:11
  Speaker 2: going on these sides because I'm just like, what it?
• 19:13
  Speaker 3: This is?
• 19:14
  Speaker 2: Why we say this is all connected? And this is
• 19:16
  Speaker 2: not just about one thing. This is not just about
• 19:18
  Speaker 2: the queer community once again, and this is the idea
• 19:23
  Speaker 2: that talk therapy is just Christian counseling. And don't get
• 19:28
  Speaker 2: me wrong, I'm not saying talk therapy is not a thing,
• 19:31
  Speaker 2: but what I'm talking about is it being manipulated. And
• 19:36
  Speaker 2: when it comes to unlicensed professionals try to make take
• 19:39
  Speaker 2: on mental health services and say that they are ordained
• 19:44
  Speaker 2: and it doesn't hurt.
• 19:45
  Speaker 4: Anything is very untrue.
• 19:47
  Speaker 2: And I say, this is a person who went through
• 19:49
  Speaker 2: Christian counseling by people who were not counselors, and I'm like,
• 19:52
  Speaker 2: what the hell is happening and being discharged after three
• 19:55
  Speaker 2: weeks of like, oh, you should be a counselor, ma'am. Yeah,
• 20:01
  Speaker 2: different times again. Please, for the love of Jesus, if
• 20:07
  Speaker 2: you want to know more about what we're talking about,
• 20:09
  Speaker 2: as we're talking about this whole mental health services slash
• 20:13
  Speaker 2: mentoring kind of can be said, please refer to our
• 20:18
  Speaker 2: Purity Culture and Religious Trauma episode because it's in depth.
• 20:21
  Speaker 4: Is traumatic, but it's very honest.
• 20:27
  Speaker 2: And here's one more quote that I've found disturbing from
• 20:31
  Speaker 2: that same article. Any government intervention to ban conversion therapy
• 20:36
  Speaker 2: will lead to a chilling effect on conversations or discussions
• 20:39
  Speaker 2: about sexual or gender identities. People will fear saying what
• 20:44
  Speaker 2: they really think. As it stands today, Christians are often
• 20:50
  Speaker 2: afraid to express their support of biblical sexual morality. They
• 20:54
  Speaker 2: avoid at talking about it, and sadly, churches often avoid
• 20:58
  Speaker 2: at preaching or teaching about it, even though it is
• 21:01
  Speaker 2: perhaps the biggest cultural change that the Church faces in
• 21:04
  Speaker 2: the UK in the present generation. A new law will
• 21:09
  Speaker 2: only exacerbate this problem and cause people to be even
• 21:12
  Speaker 2: more cautious about expressing Christian views on sexual morality. The
• 21:18
  Speaker 2: culture at large will also become more antagonistic towards Biblical
• 21:22
  Speaker 2: sexual morality and accuse people expressing an orthodox a position
• 21:27
  Speaker 2: of being pro conversion therapy or even of engaging in
• 21:33
  Speaker 2: conversion therapy. This chilling effect is harmful to the Gospel. Therefore,
• 21:39
  Speaker 2: any Christian should strongly oppose government intervention in conversion therapy
• 21:43
  Speaker 2: in principle. So oddly, they do want a separation of
• 21:47
  Speaker 2: church and state here, but not when it comes to
• 21:53
  Speaker 2: licensed therapy and professions, which, by the way, the Supreme
• 21:57
  Speaker 2: Court in the US struck down at one point in
• 21:59
  Speaker 2: time saying that professional people can have a right to
• 22:04
  Speaker 2: freedom of speech. That's a whole other conversation we're going
• 22:07
  Speaker 2: to come down to in a minute.
• 22:10
  Speaker 4: I don't know.
• 22:11
  Speaker 2: Maybe it's it's different in the UK, and I know
• 22:16
  Speaker 2: we have people in the UK listening, so let me
• 22:18
  Speaker 2: know and this is true for them. But I haven't
• 22:22
  Speaker 2: seen many people in the country that feel quote afraid
• 22:25
  Speaker 2: to express their support of biblical sexual morality here, as
• 22:30
  Speaker 2: in fact it's the opposite. This level of hypocrisy makes
• 22:36
  Speaker 2: makes me want to throw things. Anny makes me want
• 22:38
  Speaker 2: to throw things. This is why I'm like, Okay, we're
• 22:40
  Speaker 2: only doing small We're only doing a small bit this time.
• 22:43
  Speaker 2: I feel like that's probably everything every time I say it.
• 22:46
  Speaker 2: But the conversation about the fact that Christians this is
• 22:53
  Speaker 2: that whole level of making sure Christians feel like they're
• 22:56
  Speaker 2: being persecuted so they have to fight harder and louder
• 22:59
  Speaker 2: to remember, sure, this is what the Bible told you
• 23:02
  Speaker 2: that they were going to come after us, and we're
• 23:05
  Speaker 2: being persecuted here, instead of talking about the fact that no,
• 23:11
  Speaker 2: we would never. The law is never like someone asking
• 23:14
  Speaker 2: questions was never the problem. It was literally holding people
• 23:19
  Speaker 2: down screaming in their faces and telling them if you
• 23:23
  Speaker 2: have sex with the opposite sex, then you'll be fine.
• 23:27
  Speaker 4: When rhetoric like.
• 23:29
  Speaker 2: Like even, but let's be real honest, what they want
• 23:32
  Speaker 2: to say is that there's a stark difference from the
• 23:35
  Speaker 2: old school when it's the old school like early late
• 23:37
  Speaker 2: nineteen hundreds and early nineteen hundred's method of a conversion
• 23:41
  Speaker 2: therapy to today's therapy is completely different, and that it's
• 23:45
  Speaker 2: not as dramatic and then nactuality it is, but in
• 23:49
  Speaker 2: a different level, especially to the young kids.
• 23:53
  Speaker 1: Oh absolutely, I mean, and like I know we've said
• 23:57
  Speaker 1: it in several of these religious episodes, but the idea
• 24:02
  Speaker 1: as a kid that you will go to hell, that's
• 24:07
  Speaker 1: it's traumatic. Like I don't know how else to tell you.
• 24:12
  Speaker 1: We can have a conversation. I do believe there are
• 24:15
  Speaker 1: pluses for positive spirituality religion, but for a lot of us,
• 24:21
  Speaker 1: it's raised in this kind of like Western Christian world
• 24:27
  Speaker 1: that is a traumatic thing in itself. And if what
• 24:29
  Speaker 1: is telling you is you have to go get this
• 24:33
  Speaker 1: really traumatic something is wrong with you and we're going
• 24:38
  Speaker 1: to have to fix you or else this eternal health
• 24:42
  Speaker 1: fire is what's waiting for you.
• 24:45
  Speaker 2: Right, and if you don't, and if you don't come
• 24:47
  Speaker 2: to us to help us fix you, then you're not
• 24:49
  Speaker 2: a part of our community, like both of those things,
• 24:52
  Speaker 2: and you're not going to be accepted by any of
• 24:53
  Speaker 2: the people, including your parents possibly. And by the way,
• 24:57
  Speaker 2: literally laws and policies are quickly following the this idea
• 25:00
  Speaker 2: of morality, and it has been changed very fast, like
• 25:04
  Speaker 2: white Christian nationalism has taken over. And we're watching, like
• 25:09
  Speaker 2: begging people to realize what's going on, and many of
• 25:12
  Speaker 2: us do, and there seems to be so little that.
• 25:14
  Speaker 4: We can do in the background.
• 25:16
  Speaker 2: And even worse, this is being used to oppress this law,
• 25:22
  Speaker 2: it's being used to oppress the marginalized. They're trying so
• 25:24
  Speaker 2: hard to convert like this whole conversation like we're the
• 25:27
  Speaker 2: minority here. No, no, actually they may be, but they've
• 25:35
  Speaker 2: got the most.
• 25:35
  Speaker 1: Power, right well, and that's one of them. I mean,
• 25:40
  Speaker 1: I don't have to tell you or anyone else. So
• 25:42
  Speaker 1: that's one of the most frustrating things about this whole
• 25:44
  Speaker 1: conversation to me, is like the hypocrisy of it.
• 25:46
  Speaker 3: It's just the like, oh, so.
• 25:51
  Speaker 1: You'll fix this person, which is essentially destroying a part
• 25:55
  Speaker 1: of them through trauma or like making them feel that
• 25:58
  Speaker 1: they have to cover it up or over.
• 26:00
  Speaker 4: To hell, or they have to hate themselves.
• 26:03
  Speaker 3: Are they up to hate themselves?
• 26:04
  Speaker 1: And you want to tell me all about how such
• 26:07
  Speaker 1: a loving religion and it's so about like not judging. Yeah, yeah, yep.
• 26:19
  Speaker 1: And here's another example of this flip we're talking about
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: and fear mongering from Christianity today. As the practice itself
• 26:28
  Speaker 1: has all but disappeared referring to conversion therapy, public campaigns
• 26:32
  Speaker 1: to ban it are growing around the world. Some Christians
• 26:36
  Speaker 1: worry that new regulations with poor definitions will take aim
• 26:39
  Speaker 1: at what the UK Evangelical Alliance calls everyday aspects of
• 26:45
  Speaker 1: church life. A new law in Victoria, Australia, for example,
• 26:49
  Speaker 1: will ban religious practices, including but not limited to, a
• 26:53
  Speaker 1: prayer based practice aimed at changing or suppressing the sexual orientation.
• 26:59
  Speaker 1: The government also says conversion therapy is illegal with or
• 27:03
  Speaker 1: without the person's consent. It is not yet clear how
• 27:07
  Speaker 1: the law, which goes into effect in February twenty twenty two,
• 27:10
  Speaker 1: will be applied, but it could criminalize praying for people
• 27:12
  Speaker 1: who ask for prayer. I'm so sorry, but just the
• 27:16
  Speaker 1: idea of somebody out there praying for me, like go.
• 27:21
  Speaker 4: Hopefully never had someone tell you that I have, but like.
• 27:24
  Speaker 3: The idea that someone's out there just.
• 27:28
  Speaker 2: Any my parents are praying for me to turn away
• 27:31
  Speaker 2: from a feminist ways. My mother, right, you think I'm
• 27:35
  Speaker 2: getting No, I don't, absolutely not. I don't think that
• 27:40
  Speaker 2: this is this is an active thing. I'm I'm sure
• 27:45
  Speaker 2: she has requested prayer in her.
• 27:46
  Speaker 4: Women's grap Yes, who are who?
• 27:48
  Speaker 2: I have friends of their kids they have prayed for
• 27:52
  Speaker 2: I know they have because I know that's.
• 27:54
  Speaker 4: What my mother would do.
• 27:56
  Speaker 1: That's what I was kind of laughing at though, is
• 27:58
  Speaker 1: that it's like money going to like a prayer group
• 28:01
  Speaker 1: and being like, it wouldn't be my mom in this case,
• 28:04
  Speaker 1: but I know someone it might be who was afraid
• 28:07
  Speaker 1: of my mom's who would be like, we gotta pray
• 28:10
  Speaker 1: for those girl and me never knowing it. I guess
• 28:12
  Speaker 1: there's something kind of comical about.
• 28:18
  Speaker 2: Here's the thing about this prayer and karma and good vibes.
• 28:22
  Speaker 2: All those things are great, and people believe that. I
• 28:25
  Speaker 2: believe in several days, I believe like there's a level
• 28:28
  Speaker 2: for me personally. But yeah, having like there's this like
• 28:32
  Speaker 2: moment of like, wait, to me, if I was a
• 28:36
  Speaker 2: prayer person, I would be praying for you. I'm just
• 28:39
  Speaker 2: more disgusted in trying to figure out why you're like
• 28:41
  Speaker 2: this as opposed to like, true, Yeah, it's literally h
• 28:49
  Speaker 2: have I'm pretty sure I can almost say pray for
• 28:52
  Speaker 2: Samantha she's lost her way and that she will find
• 28:56
  Speaker 2: it again, and that she would see God and find
• 28:59
  Speaker 2: the path, find the right path again, like guaranteed. Those
• 29:03
  Speaker 2: words are all up in that. And we also go
• 29:09
  Speaker 2: ahead and talk about the fact that it says they
• 29:11
  Speaker 2: really are harping on the idea of prayer and leaving
• 29:14
  Speaker 2: out the part about like praying, because what we see
• 29:17
  Speaker 2: when we talk about praying over people, and especially when
• 29:20
  Speaker 2: it was like the church I grew up in, it
• 29:22
  Speaker 2: was like they weren't violent, but there was a lot
• 29:25
  Speaker 2: of touching. There was a lot of loud noises, there
• 29:27
  Speaker 2: was a lot of screaming. Like I had friends who
• 29:29
  Speaker 2: would come to my church and would be scared.
• 29:32
  Speaker 4: During our prayer service.
• 29:34
  Speaker 2: So I mean, think about that, especially when they're like
• 29:37
  Speaker 2: trying to pray a demon out of you essentially.
• 29:40
  Speaker 1: Yeah, And I mean it's just kind of a running joke,
• 29:43
  Speaker 1: like the whole thoughts and prayers is.
• 29:45
  Speaker 4: Like, yeah, how effective has it been?
• 29:47
  Speaker 3: This is the bare minimum we can do, Like we're
• 29:50
  Speaker 3: praying for you? Cool? What else?
• 29:55
  Speaker 2: It does also remind me of like Saved in which
• 29:58
  Speaker 2: Manny Moore's characters like I'm filled, the goalie goes and
• 30:00
  Speaker 2: the slams, like throws the Bible in this girl's face
• 30:03
  Speaker 2: and it hit him in the face. I'm like, that's
• 30:05
  Speaker 2: the level of what I like, this is what we're
• 30:07
  Speaker 2: talking about. I'm like, yeah, let's not doing what you do.
• 30:11
  Speaker 2: Quit trying to twist.
• 30:12
  Speaker 1: This right, right, And and that is true, like it's
• 30:16
  Speaker 1: usually used because you can't like explain it.
• 30:22
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it's like, well, I'm praying for you, okay.
• 30:25
  Speaker 4: Great, what else have you done for us?
• 30:29
  Speaker 3: Right?
• 30:31
  Speaker 1: And again this plays on the idea that the government
• 30:33
  Speaker 1: is trying to ban prayer to victimize Christians instead of
• 30:37
  Speaker 1: preticting LGBTQ plus youth. I think a lot of us
• 30:39
  Speaker 1: probably have experienced the anger at people saying like I
• 30:45
  Speaker 1: don't want to say and God, we trust in our
• 30:48
  Speaker 1: whatever government things.
• 30:51
  Speaker 3: And they're like, well they're punishing me right, well right.
• 30:57
  Speaker 2: The fact that when people want to take a knee
• 31:00
  Speaker 2: during Yes like that or not want to say a
• 31:05
  Speaker 2: prayer like or not the Christian there were places that
• 31:08
  Speaker 2: would do the Christian pledge to like there's so many things, okay,
• 31:15
  Speaker 2: but it is this type of rhetoric or in rephrasing
• 31:18
  Speaker 2: that is allowing for practices like conversion therapy to try
• 31:21
  Speaker 2: to creep back into present day methods. And I honestly,
• 31:25
  Speaker 2: I don't know why I said the word creep, because
• 31:27
  Speaker 2: it's not creeping. They are doing it very openly and
• 31:30
  Speaker 2: we're seeing it. In fact, just recently, two councilors in
• 31:35
  Speaker 2: Florida were able to win a lawsuit stating that the
• 31:38
  Speaker 2: local conversion therapy band violated their First Amendment rights in
• 31:42
  Speaker 2: free speech. And this was April of twenty twenty three,
• 31:47
  Speaker 2: so literally a few months ago. Not a good sign.
• 31:50
  Speaker 2: Not a good sign. In twenty twenty there was a
• 31:53
  Speaker 2: ruling that granted a preliminary injunction to stop enforcing the
• 31:56
  Speaker 2: conversion ban in Florida, Georgia, and Alabama. Again, this is
• 32:00
  Speaker 2: based on the idea that it violates free speech. Here's
• 32:04
  Speaker 2: a quote from the Washington Post about it. In America,
• 32:07
  Speaker 2: twenty six states and the District of Columbia at least
• 32:10
  Speaker 2: partially banned using this damaging practice on minors. When Auto
• 32:14
  Speaker 2: and Hamilton's case was heard by the US Court of
• 32:16
  Speaker 2: Appeals for the Eleventh Circuit in twenty twenty, the court
• 32:19
  Speaker 2: decided that Auto and Hamilton suffered quote content based regulations
• 32:24
  Speaker 2: of speech. According to Judge Britt Grant, this case also
• 32:29
  Speaker 2: prompted the court to grant a preliminary injunction preventing the
• 32:32
  Speaker 2: enforcement of city and county wide conversion therapy bans in
• 32:35
  Speaker 2: Florida as well as Alabama and Georgia. I feel like
• 32:40
  Speaker 2: that should be a real big ringer of what's happened
• 32:43
  Speaker 2: in the last few years and what they're ramping up to.
• 32:47
  Speaker 3: Yep.
• 32:48
  Speaker 1: And we also want to note that just because the
• 32:51
  Speaker 1: state may have banned the practice, it doesn't mean organizations
• 32:54
  Speaker 1: have adhered to it. In a twenty twenty one investigation
• 32:58
  Speaker 1: by Open Democracy, a woman went undercover and found counselors
• 33:02
  Speaker 1: in some of the banned states. Here's what they wrote
• 33:05
  Speaker 1: about it. The counselors were described as offering treatment for
• 33:08
  Speaker 1: homosexuality issues and gender identity issues on a US wide
• 33:14
  Speaker 1: list provided by Focus on the Family, a conservative Christian
• 33:17
  Speaker 1: group that is pursuing similar anti LGBTQ activities in Costa Rica,
• 33:22
  Speaker 1: where its Latin American office is located. Our investigation reveals,
• 33:27
  Speaker 1: in one instance, a counselor operating in Virginia told her
• 33:31
  Speaker 1: undercover reporter that LGBTQ people were unhealthy and that our
• 33:36
  Speaker 1: reporter should not eat until she reached the point of
• 33:38
  Speaker 1: seeing herself at the cross with Christ hanging, dying, bleeding,
• 33:43
  Speaker 1: because that's life changing. A counselor in Colorado promised to
• 33:48
  Speaker 1: treat unwanted same sex attraction, an expression frequently used to
• 33:53
  Speaker 1: disguise conversion therapy but rejected by LGBTQ plus communities. Leading
• 33:58
  Speaker 1: health and legal experts said that Open Democracy's findings were
• 34:02
  Speaker 1: blatantly unethical and graphic examples of conversion therapy that broke
• 34:08
  Speaker 1: local laws and raised concerns about the effectiveness of existing
• 34:12
  Speaker 1: anti conversion therapy legislation.
• 34:15
  Speaker 2: Right and as we're talking about this, yeah, these examples
• 34:17
  Speaker 2: are not great. So take care of yourself, and the
• 34:33
  Speaker 2: report continues. In another investigation, our reporter, claiming to be
• 34:37
  Speaker 2: at age seventeen, had several online paid sessions with these
• 34:40
  Speaker 2: two practitioners who are operating in Virginia. And Colorado, two
• 34:44
  Speaker 2: of the twenty states who are offering conversion therapy to
• 34:48
  Speaker 2: minors is banned. Virginia and Colorado measures share the same
• 34:51
  Speaker 2: definition of conversion therapy any practice or treatment that seeks, attempts,
• 34:55
  Speaker 2: or purports to change in individual's sexual orientation or gender identity,
• 35:00
  Speaker 2: including efforts to change behaviors or gender expressions, or to
• 35:04
  Speaker 2: eliminate or reduce sexual, romantic attractions or feelings towards individuals
• 35:08
  Speaker 2: of the same gender. The first of the two professionals
• 35:11
  Speaker 2: told Open Democracy's reporter that he was currently based in Virginia,
• 35:14
  Speaker 2: although he was listed on the website as being in
• 35:16
  Speaker 2: another nearby state where these practices are not restricted. During
• 35:22
  Speaker 2: the first session, the therapist told our reporter that she
• 35:25
  Speaker 2: had to suppress homosexual desires, read the Bible, and stay
• 35:29
  Speaker 2: away from any Christian group that affirms gay sexuality. Quote
• 35:33
  Speaker 2: They're not going to tell you that your depression, your anxiety,
• 35:36
  Speaker 2: all that is not going to go away if you
• 35:38
  Speaker 2: pursue the gay lifestyle, he said. The therapist also described
• 35:42
  Speaker 2: LGBTQ communities as unhealthy, claiming that quote the suicide rate
• 35:46
  Speaker 2: is considerably higher than the national average. He continued, the
• 35:50
  Speaker 2: sexual assault rate, the crime rate, all that is higher,
• 35:53
  Speaker 2: the transmitted diseases, those numbers are higher in the gay community.
• 35:56
  Speaker 2: All those numbers are out there. Focus on the Family
• 35:59
  Speaker 2: has done those kinds of studies. The therapists also claimed
• 36:02
  Speaker 2: that in their lifetime, gay men have an average one
• 36:05
  Speaker 2: thousand partners and lesbians five hundred. Very succinct numbers, I
• 36:10
  Speaker 2: have to say so myself. Yeah, okay, And according to
• 36:17
  Speaker 2: Sex and the City, so do the heterosexual women.
• 36:23
  Speaker 3: To any like sitcom weekly sitcom?
• 36:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, So obviously these are examples of what's happening.
• 36:30
  Speaker 2: And though the early articles from the Christian outlets imply
• 36:33
  Speaker 2: incarceration and loss of freedom for violating these bands, that's
• 36:36
  Speaker 2: actually not true. The repercussions aren't that harsh, and the
• 36:39
  Speaker 2: lawsuits actually maybe more damaging either way. So there's I
• 36:45
  Speaker 2: could not really find what the finds were. I think
• 36:48
  Speaker 2: for the most part, it's like malpractice suits and you
• 36:51
  Speaker 2: get a censure from your organization, and if you're a
• 36:56
  Speaker 2: religious organization, you may be fined, but you're not going
• 37:00
  Speaker 2: to jail. This is not a thing the and as
• 37:03
  Speaker 2: we see, organizations like Focus on the Family have made
• 37:06
  Speaker 2: a huge network as in fact, they do have I
• 37:08
  Speaker 2: think a network of like seven hundred counselors that does
• 37:12
  Speaker 2: just this type of work where they do the telehealth
• 37:15
  Speaker 2: type of thing to get around the bands or to
• 37:19
  Speaker 2: violate those bands. And we see that this level of
• 37:22
  Speaker 2: like guilt in condemnation is heavy, and that whole line
• 37:27
  Speaker 2: of like picture Jesus at the cross and use I
• 37:30
  Speaker 2: used that to teach kids to be guilty because I
• 37:33
  Speaker 2: had so much shame for so long for just existing.
• 37:39
  Speaker 2: And that's that level again, like being a different identity
• 37:43
  Speaker 2: and being born loving someone that people are saying you're
• 37:46
  Speaker 2: not supposed to. When I say loving someone, I'm talking
• 37:48
  Speaker 2: about age appropriate consent. Don't want to hear anything from NAMBLA,
• 37:52
  Speaker 2: but like all those things like and being told, oh,
• 37:56
  Speaker 2: if you don't if you live by like that, that
• 37:58
  Speaker 2: means you don't love Jesus or this thing who did
• 38:02
  Speaker 2: all the huge things, which by the way, again were
• 38:04
  Speaker 2: done by hypocritical religious people as a reminder.
• 38:10
  Speaker 3: But they don't want to remember that or whatever.
• 38:14
  Speaker 2: And we didn't really kind of talk about the fact
• 38:15
  Speaker 2: that there is a network like this for other types
• 38:18
  Speaker 2: of religious organizations like Catholics very heavily into this as well.
• 38:23
  Speaker 2: Some Jewish organizations are heavily into this as well. We've
• 38:26
  Speaker 2: seen all around the world where they have been influenced
• 38:31
  Speaker 2: by this, and the persecution of the queer community is
• 38:35
  Speaker 2: intense and probably follow along the nineteen fifties type of
• 38:40
  Speaker 2: methods of conversion therapy, which you know some countries have
• 38:44
  Speaker 2: finally caught on and banned entirely.
• 38:46
  Speaker 3: So yeay, But.
• 38:50
  Speaker 2: Again, if it wasn't clear, these bands are in place
• 38:54
  Speaker 2: for people under the age of eighteen. So right now
• 38:57
  Speaker 2: what we're talking about is conversion therapy be ban for youths,
• 39:02
  Speaker 2: which I don't know, it should be easy to follow
• 39:06
  Speaker 2: if you're in Florida, as we're not supposed to be
• 39:08
  Speaker 2: talking about gender or sexual orientation at all, But yet
• 39:13
  Speaker 2: it's not banned there as in fact, you know, they
• 39:17
  Speaker 2: turned that over so interesting again.
• 39:23
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Also, ageists just want to put in there because
• 39:28
  Speaker 1: the assumption is that by a certain age you'll know
• 39:32
  Speaker 1: not true.
• 39:34
  Speaker 2: I think it's the idea is that they don't want
• 39:36
  Speaker 2: to like it should be banned altogether, but for so
• 39:39
  Speaker 2: pretty young because like parents are like physically pushing them
• 39:43
  Speaker 2: into those types of things.
• 39:44
  Speaker 4: And then the whole camps that we've seen but it
• 39:48
  Speaker 4: is right.
• 39:50
  Speaker 3: Yeah, both could be true.
• 39:52
  Speaker 2: And this is something that will continue to be challenged
• 39:54
  Speaker 2: the most extremist rhetoric continues. We can guarantee other lawsuits
• 39:59
  Speaker 2: will follow. So I know in twenty twenty, we had
• 40:02
  Speaker 2: a lawsuit in both DC and I thinking a little
• 40:04
  Speaker 2: earlier in California, which were overturned because they were trying
• 40:10
  Speaker 2: to say again free speech. But both DC and California said,
• 40:14
  Speaker 2: based on the whole county and city markers that they
• 40:17
  Speaker 2: can control how businesses are run and how professionalism.
• 40:21
  Speaker 4: Is run, which is true.
• 40:24
  Speaker 2: But yeah, this is definitely going on a national level again,
• 40:30
  Speaker 2: and we should definitely watch it because this has been
• 40:32
  Speaker 2: in play for years. Like some of these articles we
• 40:34
  Speaker 2: talked about where they were fighting this obviously earlier than
• 40:37
  Speaker 2: twenty twenty one. Some of them were in twenty seventeen,
• 40:39
  Speaker 2: some of them were twenty fifteen, And there's tons being
• 40:42
  Speaker 2: released now talking about this is going. This is literally
• 40:47
  Speaker 2: persecution of Christians. That's what they're trying to say.
• 40:51
  Speaker 1: Right, And I do want to add in here I
• 40:53
  Speaker 1: find it kind of humorous slash very insulting, slash terrible,
• 40:58
  Speaker 1: but kind of humorous that I feel like the why
• 41:02
  Speaker 1: they try to tell is that this is like the
• 41:06
  Speaker 1: natural thing, this is how it should be. But what
• 41:09
  Speaker 1: they really mean is we want white Christians to have
• 41:15
  Speaker 1: babies in this very certain sense, because I find it
• 41:19
  Speaker 1: really funny as an asexual person where I'm like, I
• 41:21
  Speaker 1: don't want to have sex. That seems to be kind
• 41:23
  Speaker 1: of your message, and they're like, no, you need to
• 41:28
  Speaker 1: have sex and have a baby with a man.
• 41:32
  Speaker 3: But you told me that sex is bad.
• 41:34
  Speaker 1: You've been telling me this whole time, and they're like, no,
• 41:37
  Speaker 1: wait a minute, only this one kind is really good
• 41:42
  Speaker 1: and actually Christian, you need to be doing that thing.
• 41:47
  Speaker 3: Yeah. It's just kind of like.
• 41:49
  Speaker 2: Hm, right, yeah, and definitely like the result of like
• 41:55
  Speaker 2: being gay, the opposite of being gay is having heterosexual sex.
• 41:59
  Speaker 2: And there was definitely there were examples, and I didn't
• 42:02
  Speaker 2: read that this is what I was telling Annie. I
• 42:04
  Speaker 2: was like, it's gonna be this short because and it
• 42:06
  Speaker 2: ended up not being short, of course, but they're going
• 42:09
  Speaker 2: to be shorter because I couldn't go through all the
• 42:12
  Speaker 2: stories because I would say stories about men and women
• 42:16
  Speaker 2: being told if you come over, we're gonna do exorcism
• 42:19
  Speaker 2: and I'll show you why this is pleasurable, essentially trying
• 42:23
  Speaker 2: to have sex with them to convert them. And that
• 42:26
  Speaker 2: is you would think that was from the nineteen fifties. No,
• 42:28
  Speaker 2: that's happening today. And as we know, as we see
• 42:31
  Speaker 2: more and more people in the ministry doing some very
• 42:36
  Speaker 2: suss things, this is right up the alley. Again, not
• 42:39
  Speaker 2: saying that all the people that are in the ministry
• 42:42
  Speaker 2: or who are doing this are abusers. That's not what
• 42:45
  Speaker 2: we're saying, but we're saying that this tactic is still
• 42:47
  Speaker 2: happening today, right.
• 42:50
  Speaker 1: And I was talking with you about when I first,
• 42:54
  Speaker 1: like early days, when I first was like, you know, hey,
• 42:58
  Speaker 1: I think I'm a sexual. Somebody wrote in and was
• 43:01
  Speaker 1: very kind, but she was like, I kind of find
• 43:05
  Speaker 1: it hurtful that you identify this way, but you don't
• 43:09
  Speaker 1: use the A in the LGBT because we're often ignored
• 43:14
  Speaker 1: and we've already done episodes on that. There's a lot
• 43:17
  Speaker 1: of like complications with that whole thing, and there's definitely
• 43:19
  Speaker 1: problems with it. I was not offended. I got where
• 43:22
  Speaker 1: she was coming from, but she she brought up like
• 43:26
  Speaker 1: have you heard of corrective rape? And someone else recently
• 43:30
  Speaker 1: brought that up with me, which is a thing which
• 43:33
  Speaker 1: is similar to what you're talking about, where it's like
• 43:37
  Speaker 1: essentially we're going to rape you, right and that will
• 43:40
  Speaker 1: fix you.
• 43:42
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 43:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah, So it's it's really gross and it's it's happening now.
• 43:46
  Speaker 1: It is not something from the past, right. Yes, Yes,
• 43:54
  Speaker 1: we still have more to talk about. We still have
• 43:57
  Speaker 1: more to talk about. Yes, there will be a part
• 44:00
  Speaker 1: three to this mini series already it's like a subpart
• 44:06
  Speaker 1: or just branching.
• 44:08
  Speaker 4: Yes, it's growing, is having his own babies.
• 44:12
  Speaker 3: It is y. There we go.
• 44:16
  Speaker 1: But that's what we have to say for now. So listeners,
• 44:19
  Speaker 1: if you have any thoughts about this, you can email us.
• 44:21
  Speaker 1: Our email is Stepania mom Stuff at iHeartMedia dot com.
• 44:24
  Speaker 1: You can find us on Twitter at most up Podcasts,
• 44:26
  Speaker 1: or on Instagram and TikTok at stuff I've Never told you.
• 44:30
  Speaker 1: We do have a tea public store with some merchandise.
• 44:34
  Speaker 1: We also have a book that you can pre order
• 44:36
  Speaker 1: in audio form or physical form at stuff you Should
• 44:39
  Speaker 1: Read Books dot com. It is coming out within the
• 44:41
  Speaker 1: month this of August twenty twenty three. So thanks as
• 44:48
  Speaker 1: always too. Our super producer Christina, our executive producer Maya,
• 44:53
  Speaker 1: and our contributor Joey, thank you and thanks to you
• 44:56
  Speaker 1: for listening stuff I've Never told you, production of iHeartRadio.
• 44:58
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