Latest / Gil I Am / Glenn Loury & John McWhorter...The Truth about George Floyd s Death

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Glenn Loury & John McWhorter...The Truth about George Floyd s Death · Gil I Am

0:05
Speaker 1: It doesn't mean that she's wrong, that she's pro cop.
0:07
Speaker 1: The issue is whether she makes a case. And the
0:10
Speaker 1: case is painfully clear, and I'm willing to you know,
0:14
Speaker 1: I will eat crow if it turns out that she
0:15
Speaker 1: made all of this up. And Folks, it's not about
0:18
Speaker 1: whether George Floyd was a good person. That's that's not
0:20
Speaker 1: my thing. We were lied to and the whole issue,
0:25
Speaker 1: the whole way we think about George Floyd was wrong,
0:28
Speaker 1: including the way I thought of him. Until about ten
0:30
Speaker 1: minutes ago, I had no idea that Derek Chauvin didn't
0:34
Speaker 1: kill him.
0:38
Speaker 2: Hey there, John, how you doing?
0:39
Speaker 1: Man?
0:39
Speaker 2: HeiG Glen Glenn Lawry Here the Glenn Show with John McWorter.
0:44
Speaker 2: I teach at Brown University, and I'm John Paulson, senior
0:48
Speaker 2: fellow at the Manhattan Institute. The Manhattan Institute sponsors to
0:51
Speaker 2: Glenn Show. Every other week I talk with John McWorter.
0:54
Speaker 2: He's a professor at Columbia University and he writes for
0:56
Speaker 2: the New York Times. So we're back to talk about
1:01
Speaker 2: this and that. John, how you doing?
1:04
Speaker 1: I'm good, Glenning. You know this is sorry to jump
1:06
Speaker 1: the gun, but this is going to be kind of
1:09
Speaker 1: an interesting episode. We're kind of coming around because I
1:14
Speaker 1: think one of the ones we did that had the
1:17
Speaker 1: most impact, as it were, was in twenty twenty in
1:22
Speaker 1: an episode in I think May where we were both
1:26
Speaker 1: sitting just like this. I was at this desk talking
1:28
Speaker 1: into this mic and I said, Glenn, we need to
1:31
Speaker 1: talk about this George Floyd thing. And something happened then.
1:35
Speaker 1: I think that that really something clicked then, and I
1:38
Speaker 1: think we got a lot more viewers, et cetera. Neither
1:41
Speaker 1: one of us knew at the time that that was
1:43
Speaker 1: the case. It seemed George Floyd at the time felt
1:45
Speaker 1: like it was going to be this passing episode and
1:47
Speaker 1: now here we are a little older, got through the pandemic,
1:52
Speaker 1: got through all sorts of things, and we need to
1:55
Speaker 1: talk about George Floyd again, and you can take it
1:59
Speaker 1: from there.
2:01
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, I think that episode went viral, as they say,
2:04
Speaker 2: and it did bring us a lot of attention. And
2:07
Speaker 2: that was then May June of twenty twenty, in the
2:11
Speaker 2: midst of the pandemic, Trump and Biden knocking heads for
2:15
Speaker 2: president or for leading to their nominations where they would
2:19
Speaker 2: end up knocking heads for president. Pandemic. What a fraught time,
2:25
Speaker 2: and then this George Floyd phenomenon. We're talking about George
2:31
Speaker 2: Floyd because there has recently been released a documentary film
2:34
Speaker 2: called The Fall of Minneapolis, produced by a documentary film
2:39
Speaker 2: making crew called Alpha News. I think that's what they
2:43
Speaker 2: call themselves, Alpha News, Minneapolis based, led by Liz Collins
2:49
Speaker 2: who's the writer narrator of the film and J. C.
2:54
Speaker 2: Shay who's the director of it. I'm looking at my
2:57
Speaker 2: notes just to try to get this right. It's up
3:00
Speaker 2: at Rumble for free. Anybody can look at it. We'll
3:04
Speaker 2: put the U R L in the description of this post,
3:08
Speaker 2: The Fall of Minneapolis, and it is a detailed accounting
3:12
Speaker 2: recounting from a point of view to be sure of
3:17
Speaker 2: the events that led to the death and then the
3:19
Speaker 2: aftermath of the death of George Floyd in Minneapolis. That
3:23
Speaker 2: documentary film has just dropped, I mean within a couple
3:27
Speaker 2: of weeks time. We're talking here on December second, and
3:34
Speaker 2: we both view did and we have our views about it,
3:37
Speaker 2: and it does it's like a walk down memory lane.
3:39
Speaker 2: It's it's like, you know, so long ago. It raises
3:43
Speaker 2: a million questions. I'll say, for my part, it's very
3:48
Speaker 2: well done. They have original body cam footage that's been
3:54
Speaker 2: carefully curated and edited and whatnot. It gives you since
3:59
Speaker 2: the erect of George Floyd, the trial of Derek Chauvin,
4:02
Speaker 2: the aftermath for the police department.
4:04
Speaker 1: Glenn, I want to interrupt, very briefly, the bodycam footage.
4:07
Speaker 1: You haven't seen, folks. This isn't just the people standing
4:10
Speaker 1: there with their cell phones. This is crystal clear twenty
4:13
Speaker 1: twenty bodycam footage. It looks like a movie of everything
4:17
Speaker 1: that happened in the whole twenty minutes before that. That
4:21
Speaker 1: makes all of it a very different story than what
4:24
Speaker 1: we've known.
4:24
Speaker 2: A go ahead, now, that's good, let's get going. You
4:28
Speaker 2: and I talked about this. I just was going to
4:31
Speaker 2: mention that, ironically, Derek Chauvin was attacked in his prison,
4:39
Speaker 2: in federal prison in Arizona, stabbed and injured seriously, a
4:45
Speaker 2: major memory. Two stabs to his life, twenty two stabs.
4:50
Speaker 2: I didn't know that just the other day, I mean,
4:54
Speaker 2: just within a couple of weeks of this film having
4:57
Speaker 2: been having been made public. And that's a coincidence that
5:04
Speaker 2: gives gives pause, that gives serious pause, because the film
5:07
Speaker 2: raises real questions about whether or not he got a
5:10
Speaker 2: fair trial in Minneapolis. It raises real questions about whether
5:14
Speaker 2: or not the narrative that comes out of the so
5:16
Speaker 2: called murder I said, so cold, Oh my god, how
5:24
Speaker 2: dare I? How dare I even begin to think critically
5:31
Speaker 2: about whether or not it's appropriate to say what happened
5:34
Speaker 2: that George Floyd was murder? And yet you're moved if
5:38
Speaker 2: you watch this film, I think with an open hit mind,
5:41
Speaker 2: you moved to raise exactly that kind of question. So
5:44
Speaker 2: there we are.
5:46
Speaker 1: It's here, we are. Here we are again, Like in
5:51
Speaker 1: twenty sixteen, we did one of these where I learned
5:55
Speaker 1: from you, by our friend Peter Moscow's, that the whole
6:00
Speaker 1: business of black men being at a unique risk of
6:05
Speaker 1: being killed by white cops is vastly distorted. That these
6:08
Speaker 1: things happened to white people too. I always thought, as
6:11
Speaker 1: unpc and unwoke as I supposedly am. I thought that
6:14
Speaker 1: the general narrative about black people and the cops was true,
6:17
Speaker 1: and I'd written about it now for twenty five years
6:20
Speaker 1: and said, it's the last thing standing. It's the chimney
6:23
Speaker 1: that didn't burn down when the rest of the house did,
6:25
Speaker 1: et cetera. And then you taught me that that needs
6:28
Speaker 1: a rethinking on this one. In twenty twenty, we talked
6:33
Speaker 1: about how everyone of these cases of a white cop
6:38
Speaker 1: killing a black man turns out to not be what
6:40
Speaker 1: we thought. So you know, it wasn't that George Zimmerman
6:44
Speaker 1: pat Trayvon Martin on the shoulder.
6:45
Speaker 2: Excuse me, was not a cop. He was not a cop.
6:47
Speaker 1: He was a citizen. But go ahead, yeah, that's an
6:50
Speaker 1: important point. Didn't tap him on the shoulder, and they
6:52
Speaker 1: had an argument and George Zimmerman shot him in the face.
6:54
Speaker 2: That's not what happened.
6:55
Speaker 1: George Zimmerman shot him with Trayvon Martin on top of him,
6:59
Speaker 1: seeming like he might be a bit to kill him,
7:00
Speaker 1: which is just different. Mike Brown did not die with
7:03
Speaker 1: his hands up. He was trying to grab the gun
7:06
Speaker 1: of Darren Wilson and was lunging at him over and
7:09
Speaker 1: over again. It's always like that. But I always thought
7:12
Speaker 1: that with the George Floyd case, you couldn't argue with
7:15
Speaker 1: the basic facts. It seemed that this white cop had
7:20
Speaker 1: his knee on this man's neck, which seems so barbaric,
7:24
Speaker 1: But that's what the photo that you always see looks
7:27
Speaker 1: like and that he couldn't breathe because the knee was
7:30
Speaker 1: on his neck, and that he choked and died of asphyxiation.
7:35
Speaker 1: That seemed to be the fact, with various people connected
7:38
Speaker 1: to the Minneapolis Police Force saying that they were unfamiliar
7:42
Speaker 1: with this move, this business of putting the knee on
7:46
Speaker 1: the neck, that that's not part of their training. And
7:48
Speaker 1: so the issue was why did that happen to George Floyd,
7:52
Speaker 1: as something like that ever happened to a white person.
7:54
Speaker 1: In this case, it was Tony Tempa who was killed
7:56
Speaker 1: in a very similar way, not you know, too long
7:59
Speaker 1: before George. But I always thought, yes, I've been happy
8:02
Speaker 1: to see Derek Chauven going to jail. I have written
8:05
Speaker 1: about him as a murderer many many times. And then
8:08
Speaker 1: look look at this once again we've been lied to
8:13
Speaker 1: and I And the sad thing, Glenn is that nobody,
8:19
Speaker 1: you know, left of center is going to admit that
8:23
Speaker 1: any of this could be valid. Truth will not matter
8:26
Speaker 1: on this one.
8:27
Speaker 2: I think that's a really important point, and I wish
8:29
Speaker 2: we would come back to it. That is that the
8:33
Speaker 2: epistemic dilemma that we're in of being able to come
8:37
Speaker 2: to public agreement about what actually happened, and we're in
8:41
Speaker 2: a deep hole as a society because that's you know,
8:45
Speaker 2: that's a tough one. But I wanted to just call
8:47
Speaker 2: to mind the scene in the documentary film that we're
8:51
Speaker 2: talking about called The Fall of Minneapolis, which tells in
8:56
Speaker 2: an account sympathetic to the police officer's point of view.
8:59
Speaker 2: I think that should he said, it's not wrong for
9:02
Speaker 2: that what happened in Minneapolis with the death of George
9:05
Speaker 2: Floyd and its aftermath. I wanted to call to mind
9:07
Speaker 2: the scene where the interviewer is with Derek Chauvin's mother,
9:13
Speaker 2: the mother of the cop, the cop, the murderous cop.
9:17
Speaker 2: He has a mother. He's locked away for some interminable
9:23
Speaker 2: period of time he got you know, I can't even
9:26
Speaker 2: remember now, but I mean it's hundreds of months, over
9:29
Speaker 2: twenty years. Yeah, it's a long time. And the mother
9:34
Speaker 2: is saying, here's the training manual, the training manuals showing
9:40
Speaker 2: a certain maximum restraint technique of immobilizing a gre Council suspect,
9:48
Speaker 2: which has a photograph in it of a man with
9:51
Speaker 2: his knee on the shoulder, not the neck, the shoulder,
9:56
Speaker 2: not in an asphixiating, but in an immobilizing manner, as
10:00
Speaker 2: when you see the bodycam footage of Derek Chauvin in
10:03
Speaker 2: that position. It's very, very very similar. This was not
10:10
Speaker 2: allowed to be introduced into evidence at trial. The judge
10:15
Speaker 2: who is depicted as having been biased against the cops
10:18
Speaker 2: in this documentary film, I don't know if that's true
10:20
Speaker 2: or false, but there is a point of view in
10:22
Speaker 2: the film. I think we have to acknowledge that it's
10:25
Speaker 2: not wrong for being a point of view, but I
10:27
Speaker 2: think it's a point of view.
10:29
Speaker 1: I don't know the.
10:30
Speaker 2: Details about the judge who heard Derek Chauvin's case enough
10:34
Speaker 2: to be able to comment on whether or not he
10:36
Speaker 2: really is biased. I don't know that. The politics of
10:39
Speaker 2: Hindipenn County, Minneapolis, Minnesota, I don't know that. But the
10:45
Speaker 2: film does raise these kind of questions. A police officer
10:51
Speaker 2: commanding rank testifies that trial that that technique was not
10:56
Speaker 2: a part of the training, when trainers who spent decades
11:01
Speaker 2: training Minneapolis cops affirmed that of course it was a
11:04
Speaker 2: part of the trade.
11:06
Speaker 1: Is this a trained Minneapolis Police department technique? It is not.
11:12
Speaker 1: When I heard that, I really wanted to get up
11:14
Speaker 1: off my chair and yell bullshit.
11:21
Speaker 2: So rather than a vicious, white, malicious nigga hating cop
11:28
Speaker 2: putting his knee on the neck of this poor helpless
11:30
Speaker 2: man and strangling the life out of him, something different
11:35
Speaker 2: from that actually happened.
11:37
Speaker 1: And you know, you have to think, would he do that,
11:41
Speaker 1: you know, whatever kind of terrible person he supposedly is,
11:47
Speaker 1: or was or could be, you put your knee on
11:51
Speaker 1: the person's neck, the idea being to at sixty eighth
11:55
Speaker 1: the person, or not knowing that that would be rather dangerous.
11:59
Speaker 1: It's the and if you look at the picture, you
12:03
Speaker 1: can think, if you're told that he put his knee
12:05
Speaker 1: on his neck, that it was the neck, but it's
12:07
Speaker 1: also the shoulder. And people, this is the important thing.
12:10
Speaker 1: This is so important. He's saying I can't breathe, okay.
12:16
Speaker 1: But one there are three things. One, if he's saying
12:21
Speaker 1: it in that clear, strong voice, it would appear that
12:24
Speaker 1: he could breathe okay. So that was always a little strange.
12:28
Speaker 1: But maybe there's a point where you can say I
12:31
Speaker 1: can't breathe, but you're getting dangerously little air. But still
12:34
Speaker 1: that stands. Two, this is what's important in the body
12:38
Speaker 1: cam footage which we've never seen. George Floyd was saying
12:42
Speaker 1: I can't breathe when he was standing up straight and
12:45
Speaker 1: just being coaxed to get into the car. What they
12:49
Speaker 1: were trying to do was take him somewhere to get
12:51
Speaker 1: treatment because the drugs were severely addling his mind, and
12:56
Speaker 1: he wouldn't get in the car. And he starts saying
12:59
Speaker 1: breathing standing up, I can't breathe. I can't breathe when
13:02
Speaker 1: nobody is anywhere near his neck or anything else. George
13:05
Speaker 1: Floyd was extremely high on fentanyl and meth to an
13:10
Speaker 1: extent that could have killed him sitting in a chair.
13:13
Speaker 1: If you're on fentanyl in particular, you get something called
13:15
Speaker 1: wooden chest where you can't breathe if you've got that
13:18
Speaker 1: much in you. That's how high he was. Now the
13:21
Speaker 1: issue was not the morality of him being high, but
13:24
Speaker 1: he was saying I can't breathe long before anybody had
13:28
Speaker 1: him on the ground. And then the third thing is
13:30
Speaker 1: this what a lot of people are going to say,
13:33
Speaker 1: is look at the agony of his face in the
13:35
Speaker 1: standard photo. It looks like he can't breathe. He's an agony,
13:39
Speaker 1: that grimace that we see is something that does move you.
13:44
Speaker 1: But if you look at the body cam footage, we've
13:46
Speaker 1: never seen George Floyd had that exact same look on
13:50
Speaker 1: his face when the cops just approached his car and
13:54
Speaker 1: said get out. He was really messed up that night.
13:58
Speaker 1: I'm not moralizing. Just because I'm wearing a cart doesn't
14:00
Speaker 1: mean that I don't understand the joy of drugs and liquor.
14:03
Speaker 1: But he was majorly fucked.
14:06
Speaker 2: Up, and it was during the day, it was not
14:09
Speaker 2: at night.
14:10
Speaker 1: But go ahead, yeah, I'm making it at night, but
14:12
Speaker 1: it's in their life. And he the cops come up
14:15
Speaker 1: and he's just oh god, oh, don't shoot me, and
14:19
Speaker 1: nobody has a gun. You know, I just lost my mother.
14:22
Speaker 1: His mother died years ago, don't you know, don't don't.
14:25
Speaker 1: They weren't threatening him at all. He was really really
14:28
Speaker 1: messed up, and he had that same look on his face.
14:30
Speaker 1: So I don't think unless this is faked, you know,
14:34
Speaker 1: here we are in the age of AI. I mean,
14:36
Speaker 1: we have to allow that just maybe, But unless that
14:39
Speaker 1: bodycam footage is fate, Derek Chauvin didn't kill that man.
14:44
Speaker 1: I never thought I'd be saying that, but it appears
14:48
Speaker 1: to be true. Are we missing anything?
14:51
Speaker 2: Do you remember Shelby Steele's film about Fergus Sydney Eli
14:55
Speaker 2: and Shelby his son, Eli Steele the filmmaker and Shelby
14:58
Speaker 2: Steel the writer. I think they called it What Killed
15:01
Speaker 2: Michael Brown, And in it Steele introduces this concept I
15:08
Speaker 2: think because it virtually true. It was, you know, true,
15:12
Speaker 2: in effect, a narrative that is so in coordination with
15:19
Speaker 2: a sentiment that's widely held in the public that people
15:22
Speaker 2: want to believe that it's true because it provides additional
15:25
Speaker 2: evidence to what they've been telling you all along. Is
15:27
Speaker 2: the case about this country and about the lives of
15:29
Speaker 2: black people in this country becomes unassailable. The age comes
15:36
Speaker 2: in effect true. It is, you know, a virtual truth.
15:42
Speaker 2: Poetic that was his phrase, a poetic truth. I just
15:45
Speaker 2: love that phrase. And this is back to this question
15:49
Speaker 2: of whether or not you can actually say that Chauvin
15:52
Speaker 2: didn't kill George Floyd, because I mean, think what that entails.
15:55
Speaker 2: That means all that rioting, looting and burning, all of
16:01
Speaker 2: that civil disorder that has had and will continue to
16:04
Speaker 2: have political ramifications echoing down across the years. What was
16:11
Speaker 2: that for? Or what about imprisoning those police officers, I
16:20
Speaker 2: mean for crying out loud. Derek Chauvin is locked away
16:24
Speaker 2: for a lifetime, and the other cops also got jailed
16:27
Speaker 2: time too. One of them is black.
16:30
Speaker 1: That's another thing. The one who's k e u n g.
16:33
Speaker 1: And so you think he's Vietnamese or something, he's black, Yeah, right.
16:38
Speaker 2: And a veteran police officer who worked in the academy
16:41
Speaker 2: training other police officers said that he was probably the
16:44
Speaker 2: best recruit that he had seen in a quarter century
16:46
Speaker 2: of service. Just as an aside, but they were and
16:51
Speaker 2: are being punished unjustly. If indeed you conclude, as you
16:57
Speaker 2: have just done, that it wasn't murdered out there? What
17:02
Speaker 2: about that? What about fueling a false narrative? What about
17:08
Speaker 2: giving further credence to a way of thinking about yourself
17:12
Speaker 2: within your country that is untrue to the reality of
17:16
Speaker 2: your condition? What the cost here is inestimable?
17:24
Speaker 1: You know, you know, Glenn, Also, if you want to
17:28
Speaker 1: push it, if you think about what happened in the
17:31
Speaker 1: first half of twenty twenty, also the whole racial reckoning
17:37
Speaker 1: and the grievous excesses that it's led to that make
17:41
Speaker 1: people write books like Woke Racism, et cetera. I mean, frankly,
17:46
Speaker 1: we have to do it, we have to say it,
17:47
Speaker 1: and then we're going to move quickly on. The elevation
17:50
Speaker 1: of Ibram Kendy really was sparked in large part by
17:56
Speaker 1: George Floyd. He was, you know, he was known before that,
17:59
Speaker 1: but him being a phenom whose counsel is attended to
18:03
Speaker 1: by people cowering in their boots at becoming a moral
18:08
Speaker 1: people if they don't follow it. That happens in the
18:10
Speaker 1: wake of George Floyd.
18:12
Speaker 2: And it was a lie.
18:14
Speaker 1: It was a lie. I mean, unless we're talking about
18:16
Speaker 1: AI creating that footage, I am still trying to grapple
18:23
Speaker 1: with the meaning of this. And so what it comes
18:26
Speaker 1: down to is George Floyd he had serious heart disease.
18:32
Speaker 1: He wasn't an old man, but he had serious heart
18:34
Speaker 1: disease untreated. He had serious atherosclerosis untreated. He was very
18:43
Speaker 1: high on both fentanyl and meth, which is a lethal combination,
18:47
Speaker 1: very high on them, probably taking more while he was
18:50
Speaker 1: in the car to hide it from the cops. He
18:52
Speaker 1: opens his mouth in the footage and you see he's
18:54
Speaker 1: got something on his tongue. It's not a chicklet. He's
18:57
Speaker 1: really really high. He had COVID. He tested positively for COVID.
19:03
Speaker 1: Then at COVID he smoked. He's a very sick man,
19:11
Speaker 1: and then all of this happens. He's frankly out of
19:14
Speaker 1: his mind because of all of this. He couldn't help it,
19:17
Speaker 1: but he was and you know, he was upset, he
19:21
Speaker 1: was agitated, and that his heartbeat probably you know, pumping harder.
19:27
Speaker 1: Now I'm going into a medical expertise I don't have,
19:29
Speaker 1: but he was very agitated at being detained by the cops.
19:33
Speaker 1: And remember they had a reason for detaining him. He
19:35
Speaker 1: was trying to ask counterfeit money. They were detaining him,
19:38
Speaker 1: and it got worse and worse. He couldn't understand that
19:41
Speaker 1: he needed to just calm down, despite being told to
19:43
Speaker 1: by his friends. Just you know, stopped resisting Floyd, one
19:47
Speaker 1: of his friends said. And so it got the best
19:50
Speaker 1: of him and his heart stopped. But it wasn't because
19:54
Speaker 1: he was asshiciated. And the other thing is there was
19:57
Speaker 1: no evidence in the autopsy report, which is not been
20:00
Speaker 1: shared with us until now, not the autopsy report that
20:03
Speaker 1: was suggested by George Floyd's relatives, but the first one.
20:07
Speaker 1: There was no evidence of asshixiation of any kind, not physical,
20:13
Speaker 1: not subtler things that most of us don't understand. No evidence, now, Glenn,
20:17
Speaker 1: I don't know, is there I've looked this up and
20:19
Speaker 1: I can't find it. Is there a such thing as
20:21
Speaker 1: somebody being asphyxiated? But there is no evidence? You can't tell.
20:25
Speaker 1: Maybe that's true, but none was found. So Derek Chauvin didn't.
20:31
Speaker 2: Off I mean, I mean, you know Devil's advocate here.
20:36
Speaker 2: There was a trial. The whole issue is these are
20:39
Speaker 2: questions of fact. The jury was presented with evidence and
20:46
Speaker 2: made a finding of fact. So who are we to
20:50
Speaker 2: second guess this after the fact? In other words, to
20:54
Speaker 2: support this line of critique that you're making of the
20:57
Speaker 2: standard narrative on this, we have to go to the
21:00
Speaker 2: We have to in effect say that that process did
21:04
Speaker 2: not give a full hearing to all the relevant evidence
21:10
Speaker 2: such as that that you're calling attention to right now,
21:13
Speaker 2: And then why not? So what was admitted into evidence
21:16
Speaker 2: and all of that. That's that's a rabbit hole.
21:20
Speaker 1: Well, they weren't given enough evidence, it seems clear. And
21:23
Speaker 1: it's because of what you're talking about in terms of
21:26
Speaker 1: the poetic aspect of this and it's so frustrating. No
21:30
Speaker 1: one's going to listen.
21:31
Speaker 2: Well, what about jury intimidation? Excuse me for interrupting, I
21:34
Speaker 2: go ahead and finish your thought.
21:36
Speaker 1: It is that I mean the culture. Frankly, the culture
21:39
Speaker 1: that we're in. It shows how far we've come on race.
21:42
Speaker 1: The culture that we're in is such that not only
21:46
Speaker 1: would the jury feel intimidated in terms of maybe somebody
21:49
Speaker 1: coming after them because of this kind of street vigilante justice,
21:52
Speaker 1: but also just as moral actors, a lot of them
21:56
Speaker 1: probably felt, here's this person with the knee on the neck,
21:59
Speaker 1: that much bee what happened, and therefore we are going
22:03
Speaker 1: to do what is obviously the right thing. And then
22:06
Speaker 1: there are all sorts of people in many places on
22:08
Speaker 1: the float aar who would feel the same way and
22:10
Speaker 1: therefore make sure.
22:12
Speaker 2: Yeah, the judge declined to emotion to change the venue
22:16
Speaker 2: out of Minneapolis, given the publicity adverse to the police
22:21
Speaker 2: officers in that venue, declined to sequester the jury so
22:27
Speaker 2: that they were they were not supposed to, but were
22:33
Speaker 2: empowered to do so if they were to elect to
22:35
Speaker 2: do so. Inform themselves about commentary that was ongoing. There
22:39
Speaker 2: was a mob outside of that courthouse the courthouse had
22:44
Speaker 2: to be reinforced and fortified and protected because of a
22:50
Speaker 2: fear that it would fall under attack in the event
22:53
Speaker 2: that the wrong jury, wrong jury decision were to be announced.
22:58
Speaker 2: Speeches were given by prominent Paula Petitians, in effect saying
23:02
Speaker 2: burn this be itch Down'm not literally saying that, but
23:06
Speaker 2: in effect goading the crowd on. We want a guilty verdicant.
23:10
Speaker 2: We want a guilty verdict. We don't have to name
23:13
Speaker 2: the politicians. We know who they are. If you know
23:20
Speaker 2: the image, God help me of a rabbit lynch mob
23:26
Speaker 2: outside of a courthouse somewhere in the American South in
23:29
Speaker 2: the nineteen thirties, where a black man is on trial
23:33
Speaker 2: for something heenus that he may not have actually done,
23:38
Speaker 2: comes to mind, and that's how it's going to be
23:46
Speaker 2: seen by a lot of people. This is another point
23:49
Speaker 2: that I wanted to make, just because the New York
23:52
Speaker 2: Times would respect John doesn't see the problem here. Doesn't
24:00
Speaker 2: mean that there are not gazillion people, some of them
24:02
Speaker 2: vote for Donald Trump, who do see the problem here.
24:09
Speaker 2: The excesses of a woke moral panic around racial issues
24:15
Speaker 2: that converted a miscreant. He had a rap sheet as
24:18
Speaker 2: long as your arm. You look at that video of
24:23
Speaker 2: his arrest, it's hard to watch. Actually, this is not
24:29
Speaker 2: a heroic figure. This is a flaky motherfucker.
24:34
Speaker 1: Well, everybody's going to say that's irrelevant despite the fact
24:37
Speaker 1: that it's true.
24:37
Speaker 2: Well, no, no, it's not irrelevant to whether or not
24:40
Speaker 2: he should be buried in a gold casket pulled by
24:43
Speaker 2: a horse drawn caslon. It's not irrelevant to whether or
24:48
Speaker 2: not he should go down in the annals of American
24:50
Speaker 2: history as a heroic figure, with squares named after him
24:54
Speaker 2: and children being invited to view him and what happened
24:57
Speaker 2: to him in iconic terms as relevant to the their
25:00
Speaker 2: own lives. And there's an opera about him, of course
25:04
Speaker 2: there is. That's you know, one of the hardest things.
25:11
Speaker 2: And I don't want to think about it too much
25:12
Speaker 2: because you have to keep it surgical. Was he murdered,
25:16
Speaker 2: But the idea of him as a hero is revolting,
25:19
Speaker 2: absolutely revolting. And so, for example, the people who have
25:23
Speaker 2: written about I'm going to leave unnamed, that he.
25:25
Speaker 1: Was a father, We've talked about that he was a dado.
25:28
Speaker 1: He was not. He had five kids out of wedlock
25:32
Speaker 1: and moved away from the town where he lived, which
25:34
Speaker 1: shows that he was not a father in any meaningful sense.
25:38
Speaker 1: And yet we're supposed to think about him as a father. No,
25:41
Speaker 1: you and I are fathers. He could he couldn't handle that.
25:45
Speaker 1: And yet his biography the man was an utter and
25:48
Speaker 1: complete mess. That's certainly true. And the idea that we're
25:51
Speaker 1: going to have operas written about him, and there's going
25:53
Speaker 1: to be a wonderful movie where somebody who looks like
25:56
Speaker 1: Larry Fishburne is going to play him, et cetera, as
25:58
Speaker 1: a flawed but noble human being who got asphyxiated by
26:02
Speaker 1: a white asshole. No, no, no, it's we can do better,
26:07
Speaker 1: and I wish we could do better. Then the fact that,
26:11
Speaker 1: as I've always said, what keeps the race debate from
26:14
Speaker 1: really making any progress is a sense that to be
26:17
Speaker 1: black is to live ever in fear of being victimized
26:21
Speaker 1: by racist cops whose murders are determined by subliminal racism.
26:29
Speaker 1: That is a vast exaggeration of something that may have
26:33
Speaker 1: been true fifty years ago but is not true now.
26:35
Speaker 1: But all of the oversensitivity, all of the hyperwokeness about race,
26:39
Speaker 1: the various things you might refer to in terms of
26:42
Speaker 1: societal racism, but what really drives it in people's gut
26:45
Speaker 1: is the cops, and time and time again you find
26:49
Speaker 1: that the story that you're told about the latest episode
26:54
Speaker 1: is not true. I had no idea that this was
26:57
Speaker 1: yet another one of them, but here it is, and
27:01
Speaker 1: it's going to be the saddest thing. It makes you
27:03
Speaker 1: want to just fly away sometimes that this evidence is clear,
27:09
Speaker 1: but it will not be accepted. People will just if
27:13
Speaker 1: and but what about? The idea will have to be
27:16
Speaker 1: that Derek Chauvin cut off that man's air supply and
27:19
Speaker 1: killed him, despite the fact that quite simply he did not,
27:24
Speaker 1: or some people will say, well, okay, maybe it wasn't
27:27
Speaker 1: quite that, but he agitated him so much he shouldn't
27:30
Speaker 1: have pushed him down on the ground and that's what
27:31
Speaker 1: killed him, when frankly, he could have dropped dead standing
27:35
Speaker 1: up based on what you see in the body cam
27:37
Speaker 1: footage and what his medical condition was like. It will
27:41
Speaker 1: not be allowed that Derek Chauvin got a bad rap.
27:45
Speaker 1: It will not be allowed as truth. And frankly, the
27:48
Speaker 1: utter resistance to sense, to logic to truth on this
27:56
Speaker 1: is the same sad aspect of human cognition that has
28:00
Speaker 1: so many other people pretending that Donald Trump didn't lose
28:04
Speaker 1: that election. It's the same thing. Anybody who finds that
28:09
Speaker 1: pathetic has no business engaging the evidence that we're talking
28:13
Speaker 1: about and still insisting that George Floyd was murdered by
28:17
Speaker 1: Derek Chaubin.
28:18
Speaker 2: I can't go with that equivalentge Jack, I get, how
28:22
Speaker 2: is it not the same?
28:24
Speaker 1: How's it not the same?
28:25
Speaker 2: Each one is its own thing, And I mean, we're
28:28
Speaker 2: talking on the one hand about a moral panic around
28:31
Speaker 2: racial issues that issued in the summer of twenty twenty,
28:36
Speaker 2: and on the other hand about a disputed election. I mean,
28:38
Speaker 2: how are they the same thing? And not the same
28:40
Speaker 2: thing at all? I think I think what you mean,
28:43
Speaker 2: excuse me for seeming condescending, is that you can fathom
28:48
Speaker 2: neither of them. That they both represent, in your point
28:52
Speaker 2: of view, some sense of a departure from reality. And
28:55
Speaker 2: I'll give you that much. But they're not the same things,
28:57
Speaker 2: not at all, I think same. But in any case,
29:02
Speaker 2: I mean, I don't want to argue the election with you, John, Please,
29:06
Speaker 2: let's save that for another day. Trump is going to
29:10
Speaker 2: be on the ballot again. We'll have another election to
29:12
Speaker 2: talk about we can start a loss. Everybody knows I
29:16
Speaker 2: felt dispute that he lost the election. John, I want
29:18
Speaker 2: to be clear about that, and I am not going
29:21
Speaker 2: there with you to talk about the election because we're
29:23
Speaker 2: talking about Minneapolis. I want to make a difference. I
29:27
Speaker 2: watched this documentary film. It's an hour and a half.
29:29
Speaker 1: You should watch it.
29:32
Speaker 2: Liz Collins J C. Shay, And it doesn't make her
29:37
Speaker 2: wrong that she's pro cop news. They're based in Minneapolis.
29:41
Speaker 2: They did a good job with this thing here. One
29:43
Speaker 2: thing that came through to me that moved me was
29:47
Speaker 2: the humanity of the police, including Derek Chauvin, whose voice
29:52
Speaker 2: you hear in the film because they speak with him
29:54
Speaker 2: on the telephone from his position of confinement, and who
29:57
Speaker 2: has just been stamped twelve times into within an inch
30:00
Speaker 2: of his life because of course twenty two times, my god,
30:04
Speaker 2: because of course he murdered hero George Floyd. I mean
30:08
Speaker 2: that whole narrative is messed up in any case, Let
30:11
Speaker 2: me not lose my train of thought. The humanity of
30:13
Speaker 2: the police. Uh Derk Chauvin had a mother. There was
30:19
Speaker 2: in this spreed the core amongst those professionals who were
30:22
Speaker 2: doing a very difficult job, and to the best of
30:25
Speaker 2: their capacities, they're not scumbag murderous racists. They don't come
30:30
Speaker 2: across like that at all. When they give up that
30:32
Speaker 2: precinct station that would burnt to the ground. Whatever the
30:36
Speaker 2: number was, let's call it the third Priests and I
30:38
Speaker 2: don't remember, but it was the place from which the
30:43
Speaker 2: officers who were trying to arrest George Floyd had been dispatched,
30:48
Speaker 2: and therefore the site at which a mob of angry
30:55
Speaker 2: people masked seeking I don't know what exactly, the Mayor,
31:01
Speaker 2: Jacob Fry of the City of Minneapolis directed that that
31:06
Speaker 2: precinct be abandoned by the police officers to that mob.
31:10
Speaker 3: You had thousands of people outside the Third Precinct, and
31:16
Speaker 3: the likelihood of very serious injury and death was high.
31:21
Speaker 3: That was not a consequence that I could have on
31:24
Speaker 3: my watch.
31:26
Speaker 2: The policemen gathering their precious evidence and other our firearms
31:31
Speaker 2: and other such materials that couldn't be left to a mob,
31:34
Speaker 2: are racing out the back of the precinct as the
31:38
Speaker 2: mob is coming in the front door for their lives.
31:46
Speaker 2: The building is brought to the ground. No National Guard,
31:59
Speaker 2: no effort to draw line who made that decision? Why
32:06
Speaker 2: why was that decision made? What does it mean when
32:08
Speaker 2: you allow something.
32:09
Speaker 1: Like that to happen?
32:13
Speaker 2: Well, we could begin the parson. I assume the concern
32:15
Speaker 2: is that if you confront that moth, they're going to
32:17
Speaker 2: be casualties, and there's going to be a melee, and
32:20
Speaker 2: that's going to be a worse thing. And therefore the
32:22
Speaker 2: lesser of the evils at hand is to allow them
32:25
Speaker 2: to take over the station. And I guess it's easy
32:30
Speaker 2: for me to sit in my parlor and the second
32:32
Speaker 2: guess of that call, but I think history is going
32:35
Speaker 2: to read it as a kind of concession that is
32:39
Speaker 2: to be regretted. Is emblematic of a more general spinelessness
32:49
Speaker 2: with which a variety of authorities leading all the way
32:52
Speaker 2: up to the presidential candidate and vice president candidate the
32:59
Speaker 2: Democratic Party in the year twenty twenty to people kneeling
33:04
Speaker 2: with kenty cloth around them. Anyway, I ramble, you don't ramble.
33:14
Speaker 2: It's a month after that mob here in New York.
33:21
Speaker 1: Then Mayor Build A. Blasio had been breaking up pacidic weddings, etc.
33:27
Speaker 1: Because of the pandemic, which made sense, but then sanctioned
33:31
Speaker 1: people out on the street, cheek by jowl chanting about
33:35
Speaker 1: George Floyd, saying that racial issues like that were more
33:39
Speaker 1: important than issues concerning the communication of a disease for
33:46
Speaker 1: which there was then no vaccine. That struck me as medieval.
33:50
Speaker 1: That was one of about five things that made me
33:53
Speaker 1: write woke racism. I thought, this is religion. It might
33:56
Speaker 1: as well be twelve fifty somewhere in France. This has
33:59
Speaker 1: nothing to do with logic. These people are kneeling at
34:03
Speaker 1: an altar. Very clear with that mayor in Minneapolis. He
34:08
Speaker 1: looks like the actor Paul Sands from the early seventies
34:12
Speaker 1: to just the saintly air about him. Clearly he just
34:15
Speaker 1: has a sense of what it is to be a
34:17
Speaker 1: good person. Damn the facts.
34:21
Speaker 2: He fell to his knees weeping at George Floyd's funeral.
34:25
Speaker 1: With his pearly locks. Yeah, and he meant this. He
34:30
Speaker 1: had religion. He had religion in him. This really won't do.
34:35
Speaker 1: What are we living in Glenn?
34:36
Speaker 2: What is this?
34:38
Speaker 1: There are times when I wish I lived either in
34:40
Speaker 1: the deep past or at least one hundred years from now.
34:44
Speaker 2: This sucks.
34:46
Speaker 1: People are not going to listen to the facts. George
34:48
Speaker 1: Floyd is going to be seen as this crucial moment
34:53
Speaker 1: on the civil rights timeline when America woke up to
34:56
Speaker 1: certain realities because of the murder of this man. And
34:59
Speaker 1: nothing we say, nothing that documentary says will change anyone's mind.
35:04
Speaker 1: But I invite people who watch us to just look
35:08
Speaker 1: at that documentary, spend an hour and a half for yourself,
35:11
Speaker 1: a cup of coffee, and find that what we thought
35:15
Speaker 1: in early twenty twenty about the quote unquote murder of
35:18
Speaker 1: George Floyd has been a massive web of bullshit once
35:24
Speaker 1: again tragedy. Glenn, what do you think? What do we
35:35
Speaker 1: do about this? Is there anything constructive to be said?
35:41
Speaker 1: I don't think anybody will listen, And so the race
35:44
Speaker 1: debate will continue with that as an assumption among anybody
35:48
Speaker 1: who is a millimeter left of center.
35:51
Speaker 2: Well, we warn that you are playing with fire when
35:57
Speaker 2: you clink to narratives. So clearly at variance with the
36:04
Speaker 2: reality which is available to be seen by any fair minded,
36:08
Speaker 2: open minded person who can look at it, you play
36:11
Speaker 2: with fire. And maybe here to this extent, I can
36:14
Speaker 2: agree with you John about a comparison of that to
36:17
Speaker 2: the dead enders who say that Trump won the twenty
36:19
Speaker 2: twenty election the dangers are very significant, because you know,
36:29
Speaker 2: I have this thing. I say that the Wokesters are
36:32
Speaker 2: bluffing when they say the black family is not a
36:34
Speaker 2: real issue, or they say crime in the cities is down,
36:37
Speaker 2: that up? What's wrong with you? Larry Krasner type of
36:41
Speaker 2: Philadelphia is not really a problem of you know, or whatever,
36:44
Speaker 2: because everybody can see that it is, and they're daring
36:46
Speaker 2: you to contradict them, because then you'll look like a
36:48
Speaker 2: racist if you do. But here, I think maybe I'm
36:53
Speaker 2: on firmer ground. You say, no, people really believe what
36:57
Speaker 2: they're saying. They're just diluted. They're not They're not cynical
37:00
Speaker 2: as to know that they're wrong and be daring you
37:02
Speaker 2: to call him on it.
37:04
Speaker 3: Uh.
37:04
Speaker 2: But but here, Uh you might be right, I mean
37:11
Speaker 2: they are I might be right. I might be right
37:14
Speaker 2: that Uh who could really believe that George Floyd was
37:21
Speaker 2: a hero, Who could really think that what happened to
37:27
Speaker 2: him is emblematic of blackness in America, that he embodies
37:31
Speaker 2: our aspiration, that he's rosa Parks? Who can think that.
37:40
Speaker 1: So?
37:41
Speaker 2: And conversely those cops who are riding in prison, who
37:48
Speaker 2: really thinks that they're uh uh you know bull Connor types. Uh,
37:55
Speaker 2: you know, warrior cops lording it over poor black people
38:00
Speaker 2: who are at their mercy for their you know, whatever.
38:03
Speaker 1: People want them to be. That they get off on
38:06
Speaker 1: thinking of them as that because they think that makes
38:09
Speaker 1: them good people. To characterize them that way.
38:12
Speaker 2: I don't know, but you asked what to be done,
38:15
Speaker 2: and all I can say is, you know, call it
38:18
Speaker 2: the way you see it, and have courage of your
38:21
Speaker 2: convictions and whatnot, and warn worn against the backlash that
38:26
Speaker 2: that I fear has not yet fully played out. You know,
38:29
Speaker 2: you want to talk about Trump and people who think
38:31
Speaker 2: he won that election. I want to talk about Trump
38:33
Speaker 2: and the fact that he's ahead in the polls. You know,
38:39
Speaker 2: people say he's a threat to democracy. I want to say,
38:41
Speaker 2: the only raid is a threat to democracy is that
38:43
Speaker 2: democracy might put him back in office. And if you
38:48
Speaker 2: don't stop and ask yourself why that's so, how could
38:53
Speaker 2: he possibly be so far ahead? And name your state?
38:59
Speaker 2: Then being serious, and I think that this kind of
39:02
Speaker 2: thing where the people who control the megaphones decide that
39:08
Speaker 2: this is what we're going to believe about something, and
39:11
Speaker 2: patently our lying eyes are telling us something to the
39:14
Speaker 2: contrary of what they are telling us. And I think
39:19
Speaker 2: that's what The Fall of Minneapolis, the film that the
39:23
Speaker 2: Alpha News Group has produced coming out of Minneapolis Liz
39:27
Speaker 2: Collins and J. C. Sha is a harbinger because I
39:33
Speaker 2: think you look at that with an open mind and
39:35
Speaker 2: you come away saying, you know, you know lie to us.
39:43
Speaker 2: You know what it's going to be.
39:44
Speaker 1: The way these things actually go is that after twenty
39:48
Speaker 1: years or so, people admit the truth. So, for example,
39:54
Speaker 1: this goes back to OJ where was plane from the beginning?
39:58
Speaker 1: What he did? And yet to be a good black person,
40:01
Speaker 1: you were supposed to pretend, and if you tried to
40:04
Speaker 1: tell the truth as a black person, you were treated
40:07
Speaker 1: as if you had a disease. And now everybody opens up,
40:11
Speaker 1: you know. I think the official moment was in the
40:12
Speaker 1: Barbershop movie when the cedric, the entertainer character you know,
40:16
Speaker 1: basically says, oh J lied, And I thought, oh, you
40:18
Speaker 1: can now say this in public, and now nobody you
40:22
Speaker 1: don't even need to pretend in this case. It's going
40:25
Speaker 1: to be like that. You know, that documentary is going
40:27
Speaker 1: to get around. There's something called the internet. You don't
40:28
Speaker 1: have to go to a theater to see it. And
40:30
Speaker 1: enough people are going to see it to see that
40:33
Speaker 1: we relied to about George Floyd. But the problem is,
40:35
Speaker 1: I really think that Black America and its fellow travelers
40:40
Speaker 1: have a certain job to do, which is that we
40:42
Speaker 1: need to admit it now, because yeah, Glenn, there are
40:45
Speaker 1: people watching us, you know, from the center to the
40:47
Speaker 1: right who are tired of this, and frankly who scorned this.
40:52
Speaker 1: It's difficult to make the case for black equality when
40:55
Speaker 1: there is this kind of know nothing denialism about case
41:00
Speaker 1: like this. It shouldn't take twenty years for people to
41:04
Speaker 1: admit that those riots were about something that didn't happen.
41:06
Speaker 1: It should be now, or you and I shouldn't be
41:09
Speaker 1: treated as bizarre or pariahs, or disloyal to our race,
41:14
Speaker 1: or as having an alternate agenda in just speaking what
41:18
Speaker 1: is obviously the truth. Now. Of course, maybe we've been
41:23
Speaker 1: lied to somehow, but I think the evidence in this
41:25
Speaker 1: case is such that we are certainly legitimate people to
41:29
Speaker 1: make a case and to call attention to the documentary.
41:32
Speaker 1: Liz Colin is married to an ex cop. She's pro cop. Yes,
41:37
Speaker 1: that doesn't mean that she's lying in itself. All of
41:40
Speaker 1: us can understand that It doesn't mean that she's wrong,
41:42
Speaker 1: that she's pro cop. The issue is whether she makes
41:45
Speaker 1: a case. And the case is painfully clear, and I'm
41:49
Speaker 1: willing to you know, I will eat crow if it
41:51
Speaker 1: turns out that she made all of this up. But
41:53
Speaker 1: based on what's there, plus things that always seem a
41:56
Speaker 1: little odd, such as someone saying and allow clear voice repeatedly,
41:59
Speaker 1: I can't can't breathe, and yet having Oxyden cut off,
42:04
Speaker 1: given how implausible so many things always seemed. And Folks,
42:09
Speaker 1: it's not about whether George Floyd was a good person.
42:11
Speaker 1: That's not my point.
42:14
Speaker 2: We were lied to.
42:16
Speaker 1: And the whole issue, the whole way we think about
42:18
Speaker 1: George Floyd was wrong, including the way I thought of him.
42:21
Speaker 1: Until about ten minutes ago. I had no idea that
42:24
Speaker 1: Derek Chauvin didn't kill him. Here we are, okay, we
42:28
Speaker 1: should probably cut it still clothes. But I'm gonna say this,
42:32
Speaker 1: I think it's about way more than George Floyd. I
42:36
Speaker 1: think George Floyd is not alone. I think the streets
42:40
Speaker 1: of American cities are full of George Floyd's I think
42:45
Speaker 1: that the problem.
42:48
Speaker 2: Is a lot harder than there's a bunch of racist
42:51
Speaker 2: cops and we need to root them out by getting
42:53
Speaker 2: rid of qualified immunity and making sure that they lose
42:55
Speaker 2: their pensions. And I think that at the papering over
43:04
Speaker 2: of the real problem. What do I mean by the
43:06
Speaker 2: real problem? The disorder engendered by the misbehavior, sometimes vicious
43:14
Speaker 2: of too many people in our midst who have not
43:17
Speaker 2: developed their capacities of conduct and performance in society to
43:23
Speaker 2: a level where they don't constitute menaces to those who
43:26
Speaker 2: are around them, the existence of which necessitates the use
43:33
Speaker 2: of police officers to maintain order and to create an
43:37
Speaker 2: environment in which there's somebody to call with that guy
43:40
Speaker 2: is in your face. That's the problem. There's a racial
43:45
Speaker 2: dimension to that problem. It's not structural racism two point zero.
43:50
Speaker 2: It's a lot more complicated and a lot more painful
43:54
Speaker 2: to confront than that. Some of it has to do
43:57
Speaker 2: with the internal dynamic of culture and so organization within
44:01
Speaker 2: African American society, the charade of a gold casket pulled
44:06
Speaker 2: by a casson to bury this miscreant, and the concentration
44:10
Speaker 2: of the aspirations, the political aspirations, the claim on public
44:13
Speaker 2: attention of black people around that to the exclusion of
44:18
Speaker 2: actually confronting the root of the rot that produced that
44:26
Speaker 2: is a historic mistake of unimaginable proportion. We're going into
44:31
Speaker 2: the second quarter of the twenty first century and Oakland,
44:39
Speaker 2: Saint Louis, New Orleans, Houston, Chicago, Philadelphia, Baltimore, Cleveland, etc.
44:50
Speaker 2: Are still confronting this problem. Now, if you think abolishing
44:54
Speaker 2: the police as a solution to this problem, you got
44:56
Speaker 2: your head up your ass. You're not a serious person.
45:04
Speaker 2: So this is not just about George Floyd. It's time
45:07
Speaker 2: to call the whole thing off this charade, and Obama
45:10
Speaker 2: should have done it. Obama and Eric Holder should have
45:13
Speaker 2: begun a process of reversing this moral panic. Instead, they
45:19
Speaker 2: fostered it. But that's not what we came here to
45:22
Speaker 2: talk about. That. I'll let that be the end of
45:24
Speaker 2: my right.
45:25
Speaker 1: I agree with you on that. Now, you're right, those
45:29
Speaker 1: two men should have spoken truth to us in clear language,
45:33
Speaker 1: repeatedly at that time. When I was living through that time,
45:39
Speaker 1: I didn't see that. But yeah, you're right, that was
45:44
Speaker 1: a missed opportunity. And I would also add this, when
45:49
Speaker 1: we talk about we or we talk about the black community,
45:52
Speaker 1: I think it. I don't know how you feel about this, Glenn,
45:54
Speaker 1: but we're not talking about these quote unquote black leaders.
45:59
Speaker 1: It's not about what Al Sharpton should be saying or
46:02
Speaker 1: anything like that these days. And maybe it's just because
46:04
Speaker 1: I wear cardigans. I think it's writers. I think it's
46:08
Speaker 1: the media that needs to take responsibility. It's the people
46:11
Speaker 1: who really shape thought. It's not Jesse Jackson anymore. It's
46:15
Speaker 1: people like you know, Tanahasei Coates, and you know Michael
46:18
Speaker 1: Eric Dyson.
46:19
Speaker 2: And Johlanni Cobb, who's dean of your university School of journalism.
46:24
Speaker 1: Jelani Cobb.
46:25
Speaker 2: It's people like that who I think Charles Blow who
46:28
Speaker 2: writes at your newspaper.
46:30
Speaker 1: All of those people I think are responsible for I
46:35
Speaker 1: would have to gently say being more open to the
46:40
Speaker 1: reality of these things and a genuine progressivism, I would
46:46
Speaker 1: at least hope that that could be true. Those are
46:49
Speaker 1: the leaders. They are the leaders today to change thought,
46:53
Speaker 1: to change what we do. It's the writerly class who
46:56
Speaker 1: are online and who are heard today in a way
46:59
Speaker 1: that they weren't aren't fifty years ago. It's not about ministers,
47:03
Speaker 1: although they're going to play a part too.
47:05
Speaker 2: But yeah, something.
47:08
Speaker 1: A fundamental perspective needs to change.
47:12
Speaker 2: I can only hope that there's a young intellectual out
47:14
Speaker 2: there today who's going to become a historian and write
47:16
Speaker 2: a big book about this period in American history. I
47:19
Speaker 2: don't care what money, I don't care what color this
47:21
Speaker 2: person is who will hear this conversation and will feel
47:26
Speaker 2: compelled to shape a narrative that reflects some of the
47:31
Speaker 2: complexities and that avoids some of the pitfalls that we
47:34
Speaker 2: have been trying in our humble way here Glenn and
47:38
Speaker 2: John to identify. I can only hope you think it's Coleman.
47:43
Speaker 1: I would love for him to do it.
47:45
Speaker 2: He could do it me too, And I agree he
47:48
Speaker 2: could do it all right, John. That's a wrap for
47:52
Speaker 2: Glenn and John. George Floyd two point zero. Everybody should
47:57
Speaker 2: see the film. It's called The Fall of mini Apolis, UH,
48:01
Speaker 2: produced by the Alpha News Group out of Minneapolis. Liz
48:05
Speaker 2: Collins and J. C. Shay See yeah in two weeks, John,
48:12
Speaker 2: See you in two weeks.
48:13
Speaker 1: Glint